PDA

View Full Version : *Official* "Something Has Got To Give" June 4th Postgame Thread


WhiteSox5187
06-04-2010, 10:27 PM
Sigh. Can we get any worse?

bunty_doghunter
06-04-2010, 10:29 PM
Yes. We could lose to the Orioles.

slavko
06-04-2010, 10:30 PM
Sigh. Can we get any worse?

Yes. Next question? Never ever seen my team with less life. Expect big moves which will make them even worse.

Tragg
06-04-2010, 10:30 PM
Time for a change: on the field, in the dugout, in the front office.

I don't think moves will make us worse in the short term because it doesn't appear that these players are giving it their mental and physical all anyway.

WhiteSox5187
06-04-2010, 10:31 PM
Yes. We could lose to the Orioles.

We DO struggle against Baltimore historically.

WhiteSox5187
06-04-2010, 10:32 PM
Time for a change: on the field, in the dugout, in the front office.

I don't think moves will make us worse in the short term because it doesn't appear that these players are giving it their mental and physical all anyway.

I agree with the first part of that theory. The second part...****, I might agree with that too.

Viva Medias B's
06-04-2010, 10:34 PM
Ugly. Maybe we should just...ah, the hell with it! CLEAN HOUSE!

soxlady8
06-04-2010, 10:34 PM
At least the fireworks were pretty. We are eight games out as I type this, I thought it would have been worse as I have not checked the standings in awhile. Even though we stink, ballgames at the Cell are still enjoyable.

soltrain21
06-04-2010, 10:35 PM
This is painful to watch.

WhiteSox5187
06-04-2010, 10:37 PM
This is painful to watch.

It's comical.

cws05champ
06-04-2010, 10:41 PM
It's comical.

They have made me worse than pissed off now....they've made me not care anymore.

Jerko
06-04-2010, 10:43 PM
It would be nice if our starters could go more than 5 innings before hitting the 100 pitch mark. I know we can't trust the D that much but come on, even the best hitters make outs 65 percent of the time. Quit nibbling and ATTACK. This team just reacts, they don't force anything.

GAsoxfan
06-04-2010, 10:45 PM
At least they're making Kenny's decision easier.

A. Cavatica
06-04-2010, 10:45 PM
Who thinks this team will turn it around by Kenny's 60-game threshold?

Qdiddy
06-04-2010, 10:48 PM
We are done! I miss Uribe!!! Any team that depends on Mark Kotsay is garbage. NEXT!

SluggersAway
06-04-2010, 10:49 PM
Let go of KW, Ozzie and the whole coaching staff.

Don't dump the players, dump the front office.

Let new management create a new product cus these clowns are done.

dickallen15
06-04-2010, 10:53 PM
You are playing a Cleveland team which is awful with all its players, but its missing 2 of its top 3 guys. They have a pitcher who has lost 11 straight decisions on the mound. The Sox are at home with John Danks on the mound. The final score is 10-1. You would think the Sox would be on the winning end.

This team, if it is nearly as talented as the front office believes it to be, is not motivated. Its time to do something, anything that might shock the team to life. Just hoping the next day is the day its going to turn around is not going to work.

Anyone thinking the Sox are going to blow the team up and re build are going to be very dissappointed. With Peavy, Danks, Buehrle and Floyd under contract, they are going to try to win, which I agree with. KW..................C'mon man. Its time to stop sitting on your hands.

WhiteSox56
06-04-2010, 10:53 PM
Who thinks this team will turn it around by Kenny's 60-game threshold?


lol, you can't be serious.


To be honest, tonight was the first time this season that I actually felt that this team is toast. I know, stupid of me.

GoGoCrede
06-04-2010, 10:57 PM
LOL. Just got back from the game. I bolted in the 8th. The Sox keep pissing on my parade. Luckily, other aspects of life make up for the crapfest that is the 2010 White Sox.

Oh, well. It was a nice night for baseball. Gawd, I'm sick of saying that.

ChiSox81
06-04-2010, 11:00 PM
At least the fireworks were pretty. We are eight games out as I type this, I thought it would have been worse as I have not checked the standings in awhile. Even though we stink, ballgames at the Cell are still enjoyable.

This is why there needs to be a change made right now. This team is just treading water right now and they are better then this. Maybe a new manager can light a fire under this team before the games back in the central becomes insurmountable.

WhiteSox56
06-04-2010, 11:02 PM
LOL. Just got back from the game. I bolted in the 8th. The Sox keep pissing on my parade. Luckily, other aspects of life make up for the crapfest that is the 2010 White Sox.

Oh, well. It was a nice night for baseball. Gawd, I'm sick of saying that.


I get tired of hearing it and also saying it.

Are Sox fans the only people that expected big things from this team, because it seems like no one else is shocked that they are this bad?

tstrike2000
06-04-2010, 11:06 PM
Yes. We could lose to the Orioles.

And they just fired Trembley. We keep hearing about some sort of change, but things seemingly never change.

WhiteSox56
06-04-2010, 11:12 PM
And they just fired Trembley. We keep hearing about some sort of change, but things seemingly never change.


There are a lot of people to blame for this cluster ****. I hope we see change sooner rather than later. We hear all this talk about when to pull the plug on the team, or what date is the right date to call this team what it is, ****, and trade/fire. Well that 60 game cap I believe KW had should be consider right here and now.

PhillipsBubba
06-04-2010, 11:15 PM
Like I said many times before, this franchise would be better served by cleaning house and bringing up the kids to see what we have.

This team has accepted losing. How can KW have any confidence in this team?

soxinem1
06-04-2010, 11:17 PM
I watched the game from my phone while watching the game in WAS.

While theoretically I would rather be watching the White Sox live, I'm kind of glad I am not since they haven't played baseball since Opening Day.

gregoriop
06-04-2010, 11:29 PM
lol, you can't be serious.



He's not, newb.

Foulke You
06-04-2010, 11:30 PM
I watched the game from my phone while watching the game in WAS.

While theoretically I would rather be watching the White Sox live, I'm kind of glad I am not since they haven't played baseball since Opening Day.
Don't forget the 3 game sweep of the M's. Opening Day and that sweep are the only highlights of the year. It's pretty sad that it was our ONLY win streak longer than 2. With tonight's surrender effort to the Tribe, we fall to 4W-19L record following a win. I think Ozzie is out of answers. I don't think he has stopped caring but the players seem to have stopped responding to him. A loss like tonight in front of your home fans against a sad sack Indians team certainly has to get the front office's gears turning on making some changes.

Konerko05
06-04-2010, 11:37 PM
Ozzie needs to quit telling this team he still believes in them, like they are a bunch of babies that need to be coddled.

He needs to walk into the clubhouse after tonight's game and just absolutely rip into this pathetic team.

Everyone at this point realizes they aren't the most talented team, but there is no excuse for the way they have been playing.

Everything was perfectly in place for them to get a measly two game wining streak going tonight, and they get murdered 10-1, by a considerably less talented team, at home, with their best pitcher on the mound.

I've blamed Ozzie enough, but he's not the one out there playing such uninspired baseball. You could say this is Ozzie's fault as well, maybe partly it is, but if these players can't go out there and play for themselves and their teammates then they don't deserve to be paid a dime.

WhiteSox5187
06-04-2010, 11:42 PM
Ozzie needs to quit telling this team he still believes in them, like they are a bunch of babies that need to be coddled.

He needs to walk into the clubhouse after tonight's game and just absolutely rip into this pathetic team.

Everyone at this point realizes they aren't the most talented team, but there is no excuse for the way they have been playing.

Everything was perfectly in place for them to get a measly two game wining streak going tonight, and they get murdered 10-1, by a considerably less talented team, at home, with their best pitcher on the mound.

I've blamed Ozzie enough, but he's not the one out there playing such uninspired baseball. You could say this is Ozzie's fault as well, maybe partly it is, but if these players can't go out there and play for themselves and their teammates then they don't deserve to be paid a dime.

I'm willing to bet that Ozzie has screamed at this team behind closed doors, but really, that doesn't accomplish anything. He just hasn't gotten to the point where is willing to throw the whole team under the bus. If he sticks around the whole year, I can see him doing that. I think the whole thing needs to go, trade what players we can and free up payroll and get a new manager (and it pains me to say this, I like Ozzie) and we also need to get a new GM. Kenny has been here for nine years now and with the exception of 2005 and 2008, mediocrity has been the calling card for his teams.

GoGoCrede
06-04-2010, 11:42 PM
Well, this is disturbing.

Per Merkin:

Gordon Beckham has gone 99 at-bats without an extra-base hit and 153 without a home run

WhiteSox5187
06-04-2010, 11:46 PM
Well, this is disturbing.

Per Merkin:

Gordon Beckham has gone 99 at-bats without an extra-base hit and 153 without a home run

Ugh. Well, this might be another prospect we've ruined!

Konerko05
06-04-2010, 11:46 PM
Well, this is disturbing.

Per Merkin:

Gordon Beckham has gone 99 at-bats without an extra-base hit and 153 without a home run

He was obviously on steroids last season.

Hitmen77
06-04-2010, 11:49 PM
This team is a ****ing joke. This is a total implosion. The clubhouse atmosphere and leadership from manager and coaches has to be total horse**** for this to happen.

At least Ozzie should be happy that this train wreck isn't all on his delusional "we don't need a DH" idea.

Well, this is disturbing.

Per Merkin:

Gordon Beckham has gone 99 at-bats without an extra-base hit and 153 without a home run

It looks like the Sox have done their best to wreck our best draft pick in more than a decade by rushing him through the minors last year. Thank goodness for management that there is little to no accountability for them for messing up this team so badly.

EDIT: I see that WhiteSox5187 beat me to this.

WhiteSox5187
06-04-2010, 11:56 PM
This team is a ****ing joke. This is a total implosion. The clubhouse atmosphere and leadership from manager and coaches has to be total horse**** for this to happen.

At least Ozzie should be happy that this train wreck isn't all on his delusional "we don't need a DH" idea.


What, Billy Martin would be able to manage this team? This team is just BAD. I don't think any manager would be able to lead this horse**** team to anything other than 90 losses at best. This is just a miserable team.

Now, I'm not saying that Ozzie shouldn't be held accountable, but, he is far from the only one who is responsible for putting together this piece of **** team.

VMSNS
06-04-2010, 11:58 PM
We just lost 10-1 to the Cleveland Indians.

Man, it's hard for me to just READ that, much less watch it.

Blow it up. This team has mentally checked out. The coaches need to be shown the door, as do a lot of the players. I'll give Kenny one more offseason to right the ship. Then he's next.

Pitiful. What an embarrassing excuse for a ball club. And on top of that, it now looks like the Sox have successfully ruined our "can't miss" prospect who is the key to our future. Great job, White Sox!

Rikirk
06-05-2010, 12:01 AM
Im done with sports for awhile....
Now I know why were called the second city....because we always come in second, metaphorically speaking.
I need a drink...

Hitmen77
06-05-2010, 12:01 AM
What, Billy Martin would be able to manage this team? This team is just BAD. I don't think any manager would be able to lead this horse**** team to anything other than 90 losses at best. This is just a miserable team.

Now, I'm not saying that Ozzie shouldn't be held accountable, but, he is far from the only one who is responsible for putting together this piece of **** team.

Oh, I agree that this is a team thin on talent. But there's something wrong here that this team should be in total meltdown. We shouldn't be this bad.

Yes, it isn't all on Ozzie and the coaches. But he's the captain of this train wreck.

Parrothead
06-05-2010, 12:05 AM
Yes. Next question? Never ever seen my team with less life. Expect big moves which will make them even worse.

is it possible that this team gets worse ?:scratch:

Rikirk
06-05-2010, 12:09 AM
The scary thing is that almost anything is possible.....and also very probable.

Tragg
06-05-2010, 12:09 AM
Oh, I agree that this is a team thin on talent. But there's something wrong here that this team should be in total meltdown. We shouldn't be this bad.


I agree...it's a bad team that is playing below it's talent level (which isn't that high). But that isn't that uncommon. Thus teams improve 10 -20 games from one year to the next fairly routinely.

sox1970
06-05-2010, 12:13 AM
We just lost 10-1 to the Cleveland Indians.

Man, it's hard for me to just READ that, much less watch it.

Blow it up. This team has mentally checked out. The coaches need to be shown the door, as do a lot of the players. I'll give Kenny one more offseason to right the ship. Then he's next.

Pitiful. What an embarrassing excuse for a ball club. And on top of that, it now looks like the Sox have successfully ruined our "can't miss" prospect who is the key to our future. Great job, White Sox!

I don't see how the Sox ruined Beckham. Did the Sox ruin Robin Ventura in 1990 when he was hitting .181 on June 8? Oh, and then he played a pretty good decade with the Sox.

If anything, I blame Beckham himself. I think his mindset was all wrong going into the season--taking on radio shows, endorsements, charities, etc. Maybe for his first full season he should have just focused on his new position, and not tried to act like he was already a 5-time all-star. Maybe taking on all of these things added to the pressure of living up to his and others expectations, and he can't come out of the funk he's in because he's trying to get 4 hits every time he's at bat. :shrug:

I still think he'll be a very good player, but I can't put this on the Sox organization. And it's certainly too soon to say he's "ruined". He will come out of this eventually.

Noneck
06-05-2010, 12:14 AM
is it possible that this team gets worse ?:scratch:

Yes. This is the type of team that will have a very difficult time going on a real winning streak. But it will be very easy for them to go on an extended losing streak.

WhiteSox5187
06-05-2010, 12:17 AM
Oh, I agree that this is a team thin on talent. But there's something wrong here that this team should be in total meltdown. We shouldn't be this bad.

Yes, it isn't all on Ozzie and the coaches. But he's the captain of this train wreck.

:KW
"I built this train!"

soxlady8
06-05-2010, 12:18 AM
I just got home from the game. I stayed an hour after the game and hung out near the parking lot. There were a total of eight of us hanging out there and the only one player to stop and sign was TCM. I found that a bit strange as only 8 people were standing at the fences. You would think some of the players could sign some autographs.

I know the players may have been down and out with the loss , but I am a big believer in Karma. Perhaps you sign more autographs for people, you might win some more games ? YOU GET what you GIVE.

Also, I noticed just like some posters before that this team today seemed to have NO fight in them. There were plenty of opportunities early in the game to score, and yet nothing, nothing , nothing. I think watching paint dry could be more exciting.

Bacon is scary bad as of late and his walk up music so does not fit him.
Santos did not do well tonight and that was upsetting.
Danks pitched well early on but I think Ozzie left him in a bit too late.


just a rant ---

The sad thing is ... I think I might want to hit up tomorrow's game if I can find a cheap and good ticket to see Peavy pitch. I hear he is quite dramatic and verbal when he pitches.

hi im skot
06-05-2010, 12:24 AM
I just got home from the game. I stayed an hour after the game and hung out near the parking lot. There were a total of eight of us hanging out there and the only one player to stop and sign was TCM. I found that a bit strange as only 8 people were standing at the fences. You would think some of the players could sign some autographs.


After the ****fest on the field, I don't blame them for wanting to get the **** outta dodge.


I know the players may have been down and out with the loss , but I am a big believer in Karma. Perhaps you sign more autographs for people, you might win some more games ? YOU GET what you GIVE. They don't need karma; they need talent.

This team sucks.

pudge
06-05-2010, 12:27 AM
Most every team needs a shake up every half decade or so - nothing will take away from '05, but this coaching staff and manager have to go, and I don't even care if the next guys flop, it just has to be done. Heck, maybe Cora gets a chance, at least it would be a change.

A. Cavatica
06-05-2010, 12:36 AM
What, Billy Martin would be able to manage this team? This team is just BAD. I don't think any manager would be able to lead this horse**** team to anything other than 90 losses at best. This is just a miserable team.

Funny you should mention Martin.

Martin in Oakland, 1980-1982
1980 83-79, .512 2nd place
1981a 37-23, .617 1st place
1981b 27-22, .551 2nd place
1982 68-94, .420 5th place
(a = pre-strike, b = post-strike)

Guillen, 2004-2007
2004 83-79, .512 2nd place
2005 99-63, .611 1st place
2006 90-72, .556 3rd place
2007 72-90, .440 4th place

Uncanny, no?

Martin couldn't hang on to his job after the Oakland team tanked, but went back for a second stint with the Yankees. As a manager, Martin was known for getting quick results; wherever he went, his teams were doing very well by his second year. But they could never sustain it. Martin was a combative son of a bitch, and he wore out his welcome with the players and with management everywhere he went.

So it is with Ozzie. He'll manage elsewhere, and he'll probably turn his next team around by the second year, and then his players will tune him out and he'll be on to his next job.

Hegewisch
06-05-2010, 12:40 AM
I was at the game. They were doing well and then.........BAM ! They fell apart like a cheap suit......Very, Very Sad..:whiner:There was no excuse to allow the Indians to get as many runs as they did. Rios missed a couple flyballs he could have caught. Of course, with the way this season is going...they will WIN tomorrow !:scratch:

LongLiveFisk
06-05-2010, 12:50 AM
Well, I would have left early but I figured why pass up the one and only thing worth cheering all night (fireworks)? If I had to pay for these tickets, I would have been even more pissed.

What a suckfest. :mad:

Shoeless
06-05-2010, 12:50 AM
For this team, Kenny Williams needs to go. Because Kenny Williams goes, I think Ozzie should also go.

GoGoCrede
06-05-2010, 12:54 AM
Well, I would have left early but I figured why pass up the one and only thing worth cheering all night (fireworks)? If I had to pay for these tickets, I would have been even more pissed.

What a suckfest. :mad:


Where were you sitting? One positive is that since we're so bad, it's incredibly easy to seat-hop. I had seats in the bleachers but ended up moving to seats behind the bullpen, which had scads of empty rows.

LongLiveFisk
06-05-2010, 01:00 AM
Where were you sitting? One positive is that since we're so bad, it's incredibly easy to seat-hop. I had seats in the bleachers but ended up moving to seats behind the bullpen, which had scads of empty rows.

We moved around. Started at the bullpen sports bar, then in the 3rd we went to our section (Box 148, row 32). Then in the 8th we went to join my friend's niece behind home plate, about 30 rows up.

The upper deck was really bare tonight. I am guessing a lot of people skipped the game to watch the Hawks. Unfortunately that went about as well.

StillMissOzzie
06-05-2010, 01:09 AM
At the 33.33% mark, The Sox are 23 - 31. This projects out to a season record of 69 - 93, which could easily mean the AL Central cellar. In a make-or-break homestand, they are at 1 - 3 so far. Bacon, the former franchise savior, looks lost and about ready to head back to Charlotte for some more seasoning. The starting rotation, which looked so good on paper, has been adequate at times, pathetic at other times. The offense has been sputtering, and situational hitting continues to be god-awful. Overall, the defense has been pretty bad.

I believe that KW has no choice but to blow it up. If you bound to finish no better than 3rd in the division (and maybe worse), you can do so on half the current payroll. With Konerko's consent, he gone. I think AJ will be dumped before the 10 & 5 kicks in. If there's a taker for Jenks, I think he's gone.
TCM and TCQ are both here on the cheap, so I think that they'll be here a bit longer. Are we stuck with Teahen and Pierre? Why Teahen got a 3 year deal, I will never know.

SMO
:angry: + :mad: + :whiner: = :gulp:

SluggersAway
06-05-2010, 01:17 AM
KW and Ozzie exit stage right! No more loyalty to a fault with these clowns and bull****.

Bring back Razor Shines and Rock Raines!

LoveYourSuit
06-05-2010, 01:20 AM
Ugh. Well, this might be another prospect we've ruined!



As much as I want to kick dirt to the franchise while they are down, in no way am I going to blame them on Beckham. I mean come on now, the guy was in the hunt for ROY last year.


How did the franchise ruin him?

Maybe he's a mental midget and can't make any adjustments, who knows.

WhiteSox1989
06-05-2010, 01:30 AM
After the ****fest on the field, I don't blame them for wanting to get the **** outta dodge.


They don't need karma; they need talent.

This team sucks.
Exactly. The reason why their losing isn't because the players won't sign autographs, it's because the players have been suck it up.

I didn't see the game, but was following on my phone. Looked pretty ****ing pathetic to me.

I give up on the season, which is all right--because not every season is going to be a winning one. But something needs to change, obviously.

doublem23
06-05-2010, 01:57 AM
Let go of KW, Ozzie and the whole coaching staff.

Don't dump the players, dump the front office.


Can we get rid of both? As much as some people might dislike Ozzie or KW, they're not the ones getting blown out by the Tribe.

doublem23
06-05-2010, 01:59 AM
As much as I want to kick dirt to the franchise while they are down, in no way am I going to blame them on Beckham. I mean come on now, the guy was in the hunt for ROY last year.


How did the franchise ruin him?

Maybe he's a mental midget and can't make any adjustments, who knows.

Perhaps he doesn't know HOW to make adjustments because he's never had to before?

guillensdisciple
06-05-2010, 03:25 AM
I can't do this. It's time to let go of 05 and everything that had to do with it. Whether we like it or not, 05 and all the crap has much to do with why we continue going the route we are going.

This mentality, this inability to let go of the crap we field, this pride in the organization. All of it stems from one playoff run, all of it stems from the belief that we CAN get it right since we already have.

It was a fluke, a year where everything went right and we capitalized. Enough said, move on and open a new page. We will not win unless we close the 05 chapter and begin a new era of White Sox baseball.

We have embarrassed ourselves enough this year, and the organization owes it to us to at least massacre the team and change direction. You can't save face after losing to the Indians by such a score, and you can't save the team after continually losing to the INdians time after time.

I have been an avide supporter of everything White Sox, but my time has passed as that guy. It's time to move on. It's time to get rid of a complacent coaching staff who have shown to make this team worse over time instead of improve it, who have shown no real connect to the players that play, and who have struggled to bring this team out of consistent funks they stay in.

It's time to get rid of the underperformers and those who are lightning in the bottle prospects. All of those who have continued to hang by the thread just because, are ones that need to be rid of. Yes, I am talking Mark, yes I am talking Freddy, yes I am talking Paulie, yes I am talking Quentin, yes I am talking Jenks, yes I am talking Gavin, and yes I am even talking Peavy.

It's time, time to stop making excuses, because we are no worse than Cubs fans in that aspect. We continue salvaging a piece of a moment we all loved. It's rather simple really, we're holding on to something we should have gotten rid of the moment it happened. The memory, we continue to live it and we continue trying to remember it. But we can't find it, because it is not there.

It's time to build new memories, it is time to build a new ball club- one that can at least give me hope for the future. I am sick of the mantra, I am sick of "black and white"- no Kenny and Ozzie, it's just baseball and you have to play it right. It's that easy, whether you like it or not.

It's time guys.

Dan H
06-05-2010, 05:29 AM
I totally agree with guillendisciple. '05 is a memory. I thought after that season the White Sox organization finally got over the hump and began to know how to build a consistent winning team. Instead it is back to losing.

Reinsdorf apologists say he is the best Chicago sports owner. Maybe the Bulls' six championships back that up. But his performance with the Sox has been up and down. This team is in awful shape. Fans have abandoned them. There are only one or two bright spots on the whole team. Jerry, it is time to do something dramatic. To leave the same people in charge while this team sinks to the bottom of the division is not acceptable. It is nice that you are loyal to your employees, but how about loyalty to White Sox fans? Or did you never have any?

wassagstdu
06-05-2010, 06:15 AM
It's time to let go of 05 and everything that had to do with it. Whether we like it or not, 05 and all the crap has much to do with why we continue going the route we are going.
2005 has nothing to do with this team. Unless you are blaming it all on Konerko, Pierzynski, and Buehrle and Garcia. The 2005 team is long gone. Let go of 2005 and dump Peavy? Huh?

The problem is not 2005 nostalgia, the problem is US Cellular Field, and the effect it has had on the organization.

doublem23
06-05-2010, 06:18 AM
2005 has nothing to do with this team. Unless you are blaming it all on Konerko, Pierzynski, and Buehrle and Garcia. The 2005 team is long gone. Let go of 2005 and dump Peavy? Huh?

The problem is not 2005 nostalgia, the problem is US Cellular Field, and the effect it has had on the organization.

Huh?

The problem is that this team is just bad. They're low on talent, poorly coached, etc.

Baseball is a zero-sum game. Somebody has to win, somebody has to lose. Unfortunately, there's at least 8-9 teams in the AL better than us.

WSox597
06-05-2010, 07:50 AM
It's past time to change coaches. As the baseball cliche goes, you can't fire the entire team, so the manager and coaches usually go.

I've never been a fan of Ozzie as manager, to be honest. Between the profanity-laced tirades at the drop of a hat, the awful English he speaks which never seems to get better, and his mishandling of too many players, he drives me crazy. It's painful to watch his post-game interviews, even when they were winning.

It also seems to me that he WANTS to get fired and to go somewhere else. He and Williams put this team together, and they need to pay the ultimate price for it. Everywhere else in sports, if you screw the pooch this bad, you get fired. Williams should get smoked just for extending Teahen before the season even started.

These two guys have screwed this pooch big time, they need to go, and so do all of their coaches. The team needs a fresh start. Joey Cora would not be a fresh start, just an extension of this crap.

Get somebody from outside the organization this time, not a former White Sox player who's never managed at any level. Same thing with the GM job, get somebody from outside the organization, somebody with no ties to former Sox teams, and have them right the ship.

2005 is a distant memory by now, although a very happy memory. I still think the Sox won in spite of Guillen, and not because of him. Nothing that has happened since has changed my mind.

Time to go, Kenny and Ozzie. Take the show on the road.

Shoeless
06-05-2010, 09:13 AM
I must admit, despite the horrible final score, I had a good time at the game.

The family behind me was at the game for the first time. Clearly not American, they came very enthusiastic for the game. After a vendor came by, the baby of the family learned its first word at the game, so all the kids in the family were yelling "BEEEEEEEEEEERRR!" for like 20 minutes. Then one kid tackled the other and they did a nose dive into the row below them. After another 20 minutes of less joyful screaming, the sixth inning debacle was over.

soxinem1
06-05-2010, 10:04 AM
I don't see how the Sox ruined Beckham. Did the Sox ruin Robin Ventura in 1990 when he was hitting .181 on June 8? Oh, and then he played a pretty good decade with the Sox.

If anything, I blame Beckham himself. I think his mindset was all wrong going into the season--taking on radio shows, endorsements, charities, etc. Maybe for his first full season he should have just focused on his new position, and not tried to act like he was already a 5-time all-star. Maybe taking on all of these things added to the pressure of living up to his and others expectations, and he can't come out of the funk he's in because he's trying to get 4 hits every time he's at bat. :shrug:

I still think he'll be a very good player, but I can't put this on the Sox organization. And it's certainly too soon to say he's "ruined". He will come out of this eventually.

Ventura was rushed a little, but he was able to make adjustments in a low pressure environment. He hit less than .250 with little extra base power and many errors in 1990.

We all know what happened after that. But he also had a manager who knew how to let him develop in a MLB environment and not put a ton of pressure on the player.

Ventura was the least productive regular on the 1990 White Sox, and the team won 94 games.

Beckham did fine when brought up last year. But he was drafted for his offensive talents, and what does the team do? They change his position and bat him second.

Not to make excuses, as he is a big league player, but putting him in an element he has no experience in and is having difficulty getting used to is the fault of the organization.

Did they look at Beckham on draft day and say 'Gordon will fit in our lineup nicely as a #2 hitter' or 'We will draft him for his talent to move runners along and provide protection for the lead-off guy'? No, he was signed for his ability to produce runs.

One of the major problems I have with KW and Ozzie, especially the last several seasons, is getting players like Swisher and Griffey and realistically thinking they could be lead-off men and/or CF. Then getting a guy like Todd Ritchie and believing he could be a legit 2-3 starter, etc.

In other words, putting these players in roles that they are neither well-suited for nor in prime stages of their careers. They are not realizing that what a guy did in 2000 does not mean he can do it in 2008 (i.e., Griff in CF).

Bottom line: Put players in positions and roles they do well in and have proven themselves in, not what you think they can do.

This is why managers like LaRussa, Leyland, Francona, and Torre succeed, especially with the younger players. And they know when it is time to move them up or down the order, move them from starter to reliever (or reverse), etc.

And honestly, other than Jenks, Guillen has had virtually no success with young or rookie players in his seventh season as a manager. Maybe he should study how the first three managers noted above, and Jeff Torborg, guys he knows very well, and do things how they have shown him and incorporate them in his thinking when evaluating his players.

WhiteSox56
06-05-2010, 10:23 AM
He's not, newb.


Give me a ****ing break:whiner: Why don't you try adding some content to threads instead of trolling. Take that bull**** somewhere else.

kufram
06-05-2010, 10:23 AM
Beckham did fine when brought up last year. But he was drafted for his offensive talents, and what does the team do? They change his position and bat him second.

Not to make excuses, as he is a big league player, but putting him in an element he has no experience in and is having difficulty getting used to is the fault of the organization.

Did they look at Beckham on draft day and say 'Gordon will fit in our lineup nicely as a #2 hitter' or 'We will draft him for his talent to move runners along and provide protection for the lead-off guy'? No, he was signed for his ability to produce runs.


Bottom line: Put players in positions and roles they do well in and have proven themselves in, not what you think they can do.



Ozzie did not WANT to bring Beckham up from the minors and bat him 2nd and ruin him. OG even said publicly that if we saw Beckham on the White Sox that meant they were in big trouble. The debacle at 3rd early last year meant that they HAD to bring Beckham up and play him there. I give Beckham credit for hitting as well as he did and surviving what he himself said was his "circus act" at 3rd. Beckham will either survive this and be better and stronger for it or allow it all to overwhelm and defeat him. I suspect he'll survive. I doubt if he will have a career batting average under .200

Hitmen77
06-05-2010, 10:36 AM
As much as I want to kick dirt to the franchise while they are down, in no way am I going to blame them on Beckham. I mean come on now, the guy was in the hunt for ROY last year.


How did the franchise ruin him?

Maybe he's a mental midget and can't make any adjustments, who knows.

:rolleyes:
Just because a player is struggling to hit major league pitching doesn't mean he is a mental midget.

soltrain21
06-05-2010, 10:38 AM
Give me a ****ing break:whiner: Why don't you try adding some content to threads instead of trolling. Take that bull**** somewhere else.

Teal means he was being sarcastic, which means no, he wasn't serious. He made the newb joke because you didn't know that - and now you are getting bent out of shape about it.

But hey, be that tough guy.

TheCommander
06-05-2010, 10:43 AM
I know the players may have been down and out with the loss , but I am a big believer in Karma. Perhaps you sign more autographs for people, you might win some more games ? YOU GET what you GIVE.


So that's been the Pirates problem all of these years-not signing enough autographs.

PhillipsBubba
06-05-2010, 10:43 AM
Give me a ****ing break:whiner: Why don't you try adding some content to threads instead of trolling. Take that bull**** somewhere else.

I think you should show respect for people whose opinions differ from yours. The free exchange of ideas can be be beneficial if one keeps his/hers ears open.

Let's face it, this is supposed to be fun, no matter how bad our team sucks.:smile:

Sad
06-05-2010, 10:44 AM
We just lost 10-1 to the Cleveland Indians.

Man, it's hard for me to just READ that, much less watch it.

Blow it up. This team has mentally checked out. The coaches need to be shown the door, as do a lot of the players. I'll give Kenny one more offseason to right the ship. Then he's next.

Pitiful. What an embarrassing excuse for a ball club. And on top of that, it now looks like the Sox have successfully ruined our "can't miss" prospect who is the key to our future. Great job, White Sox!

my thoughts exactly... what a ****ing joke :mad::angry:
was supposed to go in for tonites game, had a room booked etc
between this and the crappy forecast think I'll stay put on this side of the lake

WhiteSox56
06-05-2010, 11:08 AM
Teal means he was being sarcastic, which means no, he wasn't serious. He made the newb joke because you didn't know that - and now you are getting bent out of shape about it.

But hey, be that tough guy.


I found that out 2 mins. after posting. You would think that since Im the newb here, that he would have understood that right? I guess his smartass post was better than explaining the teal thing:scratch:
Anyway, let's move on.

fox23
06-05-2010, 11:11 AM
Are Sox fans the only people that expected big things from this team, because it seems like no one else is shocked that they are this bad?

Well, yes sadly. A vast majority of outsiders thought the Sox would be pretty average going into this year. Of course I don't think even the most negative person would have thought they'd be this bad.

Mohoney
06-05-2010, 11:37 AM
Well, this is disturbing.

Per Merkin:

Gordon Beckham has gone 99 at-bats without an extra-base hit and 153 without a home run

Mind-boggling.

SI1020
06-05-2010, 12:12 PM
Heck, maybe Cora gets a chance, at least it would be a change. Please no. I'd rather keep Ozzie.

WhiteSox5187
06-05-2010, 12:48 PM
Ventura was rushed a little, but he was able to make adjustments in a low pressure environment. He hit less than .250 with little extra base power and many errors in 1990.

We all know what happened after that. But he also had a manager who knew how to let him develop in a MLB environment and not put a ton of pressure on the player.

Ventura was the least productive regular on the 1990 White Sox, and the team won 94 games.

Beckham did fine when brought up last year. But he was drafted for his offensive talents, and what does the team do? They change his position and bat him second.

Not to make excuses, as he is a big league player, but putting him in an element he has no experience in and is having difficulty getting used to is the fault of the organization.

Did they look at Beckham on draft day and say 'Gordon will fit in our lineup nicely as a #2 hitter' or 'We will draft him for his talent to move runners along and provide protection for the lead-off guy'? No, he was signed for his ability to produce runs.

One of the major problems I have with KW and Ozzie, especially the last several seasons, is getting players like Swisher and Griffey and realistically thinking they could be lead-off men and/or CF. Then getting a guy like Todd Ritchie and believing he could be a legit 2-3 starter, etc.

In other words, putting these players in roles that they are neither well-suited for nor in prime stages of their careers. They are not realizing that what a guy did in 2000 does not mean he can do it in 2008 (i.e., Griff in CF).

Bottom line: Put players in positions and roles they do well in and have proven themselves in, not what you think they can do.

This is why managers like LaRussa, Leyland, Francona, and Torre succeed, especially with the younger players. And they know when it is time to move them up or down the order, move them from starter to reliever (or reverse), etc.

And honestly, other than Jenks, Guillen has had virtually no success with young or rookie players in his seventh season as a manager. Maybe he should study how the first three managers noted above, and Jeff Torborg, guys he knows very well, and do things how they have shown him and incorporate them in his thinking when evaluating his players.

1) Those acquisitions are on Kenny more than Ozzie. Kenny was the guy who went out and got Swisher and thought he could leadoff and play CF - Ozzie reluctantly agreed as I recall. I remember reading articles where Kenny was saying Swisher's OBP made him an ideal lead off man, Ozzie went along with it but changed pretty quickly.

2) Ozzie hasn't had many good rookies to play, has he? Brian Anderson got more ABs out of anyone at CF in 2006, he wasn't very good was he? In 2007 he had rookies in Josh Fields and Jerry Owens starting at 3B and CF and they both sucked. Last year he gave Beckham a hell of a lot of time at 3rd and Getz was the primary second baseman. He's given rookies lots of shots, the problems is the rookies we bring up aren't any good. Getz and Beckham were the best rookies we've seen under Ozzie and Kenny traded one and moved the other to second.

kittle42
06-05-2010, 01:09 PM
Masterson got the win for my fantasy team, and that's really the only team I have to care about anymore. Thanks, Sox!

thomas35forever
06-05-2010, 01:19 PM
Well, this is disturbing.

Per Merkin:

Gordon Beckham has gone 99 at-bats without an extra-base hit and 153 without a home run
If we had someone better on the bench, I'd say send him back to the minors. We don't, so we're gonna have to keep him here IMO.

soltrain21
06-05-2010, 01:38 PM
If we had someone better on the bench, I'd say send him back to the minors. We don't, so we're gonna have to keep him here IMO.

Nix would produce at a higher level than Beckham is right now. Hell, anybody would.

DickAllen72
06-05-2010, 01:38 PM
You are playing a Cleveland team which is awful with all its players, but its missing 2 of its top 3 guys. They have a pitcher who has lost 11 straight decisions on the mound. The Sox are at home with John Danks on the mound. The final score is 10-1. You would think the Sox would be on the winning end.

This team, if it is nearly as talented as the front office believes it to be, is not motivated. Its time to do something, anything that might shock the team to life. Just hoping the next day is the day its going to turn around is not going to work.

Anyone thinking the Sox are going to blow the team up and re build are going to be very dissappointed. With Peavy, Danks, Buehrle and Floyd under contract, they are going to try to win, which I agree with. KW..................C'mon man. Its time to stop sitting on your hands.
:fireozzie

It's time.

WhiteSox56
06-05-2010, 01:54 PM
:fireozzie

It's time.


Please!!! KW, I hope you are feeling the heat.


We have accepted losing, and something needs to be done right now!

Tragg
06-05-2010, 02:25 PM
2) Ozzie hasn't had many good rookies to play, has he? Brian Anderson got more ABs out of anyone at CF in 2006, he wasn't very good was he? In 2007 he had rookies in Josh Fields and Jerry Owens starting at 3B and CF and they both sucked. Last year he gave Beckham a hell of a lot of time at 3rd and Getz was the primary second baseman. He's given rookies lots of shots, the problems is the rookies we bring up aren't any good. Getz and Beckham were the best rookies we've seen under Ozzie and Kenny traded one and moved the other to second.
Do you seriously suggest that he showed Getz or Sweeney or Anderson the same patience he's shown Erstad and Kotsay? It's not even close. Have you EVER heard Guillen grouse about Vizquel or Kotsay?

He simply favors free-swinging below-average veterans.


His lack of development of young talent is somewhat of a circular argument...because no players have developed, Ozzie has had nothing to work with. Or maybe he had some decent players, that he simply couldn't develop them. He had 1/2 of 07 to evaluate the farm, and he came up with Jerry Owens......it was a joke.

The bottom line is that young players have not blossomed under Ozzie Guillen.

WhiteSox5187
06-05-2010, 02:40 PM
Do you seriously suggest that he showed Getz or Sweeney or Anderson the same patience he's shown Erstad and Kotsay? It's not even close. Have you EVER heard Guillen grouse about Vizquel or Kotsay?

He simply favors free-swinging below-average veterans.


His lack of development of young talent is somewhat of a circular argument...because no players have developed, Ozzie has had nothing to work with. Or maybe he had some decent players, that he simply couldn't develop them. He had 1/2 of 07 to evaluate the farm, and he came up with Jerry Owens......it was a joke.

The bottom line is that young players have not blossomed under Ozzie Guillen.

I agree that he didn't show a lot of appreciation for Sweeney, but then again neither did Kenny. He gave lots of playing time to Owens and Fields in 2007 (who were awful, Fields hit for power but to quote Daver, he also played third base with his face). He gave starts to Andy Gonzalez who was believe it or not, a prospect. He gave a ton of starts to Danny Richar who was going to be the anchor at second - at least that's what Kenny was saying. He gave lots of ABs to rookies and prospects in 2007 and they all sucked. He had 1/2 the season to evaluate the farm and came up with Jerry Owens, you know why? Because of all those prospects, Owens was the only guy who hit over .250 and had an OBP over .310 and was the only guy who played something vaguely resembling defense (and even there he wasn't that good).

As for Getz, christ, he started 100 games and got 400 PAs. I'd say that is giving a guy a chance. Then he was traded.

LoveYourSuit
06-05-2010, 04:22 PM
:rolleyes:
Just because a player is struggling to hit major league pitching doesn't mean he is a mental midget.


It's all mental with this kid, as it is with most of the guys struggling on this team. Talent they have, we have seen that very clear.

You mean to tell me Beckham all of suddent doesn't have the skill to hit ML pitching?


My point is let's just stop bashing the organization and saying they have ruined this kid. That is just taking it too far especially seeing that he had tremendous success just last season in his rookier year.


Had he flopped last year, then yes blame it on the the team. But that was not the case. He belongs here, he just needs to get his head on straight.

khan
06-05-2010, 04:48 PM
It's all mental with this kid, as it is with most of the guys struggling on this team. Talent they have, we have seen that very clear.
So you have the ability to read minds? You can simply look @ a player and ascertain what they're thinking? How?

No offense, but it could be mental, or it could be the fact that he doesn't know how to handle adversity. Or it could be something mechanical. There are any number of legit explainations beyond dimestore psychology.

You mean to tell me Beckham all of suddent doesn't have the skill to hit ML pitching?
OK, so you're telling us that after just more than ONE SEASON, that you have the ability to KNOW FOR CERTAIN who CAN and who CAN NOT hit MLB pitching? Honestly, if that's what you're saying, I'll have to call bull****. The history of MLB has been littered with rookie and one-year wonders that later were found out to be frauds.

Beckham MAY turn out to be a fraud, or he may turn out to be the Golden God that many here were promising that he'd become. For my part, the sample size was too small to be sure that he'd be a primary provider for this team. There SHOULD HAVE BEEN other options, just in case Beckham is a fraud, or has a Sophomore Slump, or can't make adjustments.

Unfortunately, as with many parts of this team, there was no margin for error, no alternatives, and no accounting for any downside risk.


My point is let's just stop bashing the organization and saying they have ruined this kid. That is just taking it too far especially seeing that he had tremendous success just last season in his rookier year.

Had he flopped last year, then yes blame it on the the team. But that was not the case. He belongs here, he just needs to get his head on straight.
Right now, Beckham isn't good enough to be in an MLB roster, whether we like it or not. We should stop having nostalgia for 2009, because that's dead and gone. 2005 is dead and gone, too. Right here and right now, Beckham needs to be sent down.

The organization has failed to provide him with the PROPER MOTIVATION of having to ride busses in Charlotte. They are coddling and enabling him. He KNOWS that no matter what he does, that this organization lacks the guts to do the right thing, which is send him down to un-**** his swing.

In sum, there's plenty of "carrot," but not enough "stick," IMHO. Don't give me the bull**** of "today's players can't handle being sent down." There are plenty of examples of successful MLB players that needed to be sent down after their MLB debuts.