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View Full Version : The Big Fraud: Don Cooper and his pitching staff


LoveYourSuit
06-01-2010, 11:39 PM
The Sox are where they are because of this pile of garbage.

It's time to unload on these guys and the coach, the untouchable.

DumpJerry
06-01-2010, 11:40 PM
At last! I have an excellent example of the word "hyperbole."

WhiteSox5187
06-01-2010, 11:42 PM
The pitchers have sucked, but last year they led the league in pitching. They have consistently had good pitching since Cooper has been year. This year is the exception. The offense has been bad since, well, the second half of 2006 regardless of what personnel they have.

LoveYourSuit
06-01-2010, 11:43 PM
At last! I have an excellent example of the word "hyperbole."

Hyperbole or whatever, Sox pitching has been a complete pile of steaming crap this year.

Sox fans need to unload on this group and for once stop only pointing the finger on Walker and his crappy offense.

LoveYourSuit
06-01-2010, 11:45 PM
The pitchers have sucked, but last year they led the league in pitching. They have consistently had good pitching since Cooper has been year. This year is the exception. The offense has been bad since, well, the second half of 2006 regardless of what personnel they have.

I would agree if not the fact that since 2006 and every year after that this team has suffered complete bullpen implosions every year.

ERA is a bad way to judge a teams' pitching.

DumpJerry
06-01-2010, 11:45 PM
Hyperbole or whatever, Sox pitching has been a complete pile of steaming crap this year.

Sox fans need to unload on this group and for once stop only pointing the finger on Walker and his crappy offense.
Complete, huh? Nothing like making an overstatement to prove your point.

LoveYourSuit
06-01-2010, 11:46 PM
Complete, huh? Nothing like making an overstatement to prove your point.

Explain....

It's Dankerific
06-01-2010, 11:46 PM
Fix the defense. if the pitching still sucks then, you'd have an argument.

BadBobbyJenks
06-01-2010, 11:48 PM
Explain....

John Danks dude.

WhiteSox5187
06-01-2010, 11:57 PM
I would agree if not the fact that since 2006 and every year after that this team has suffered complete bullpen implosions every year.

ERA is a bad way to judge a teams' pitching.

Jenks was bad in the second half of 2006, but Politte and Cotts were gone and replaced by Thornton and MacDougal (who were both quite effective in 2006, shocking). In 2007 the bullpen was crap but I blame a lot of that on Kenny who was expecting Cooper to work miracles on the likes of Ryan Bukvich, Andy Sisco, and Mike Myers. In 2008 the bullpen was fantastic until Linebrink went down and then guys like Masset and Logan were exposed and that hurt. 2009 was again a good year outside of Linebrink and Jenks. Jenks has just fell off a cliff and no pitching coach can help him right now and the same is probably true for Linebrink but he has an untradeable contract.

WhiteSox56
06-01-2010, 11:59 PM
Hyperbole or whatever, Sox pitching has been a complete pile of steaming crap this year.

Sox fans need to unload on this group and for once stop only pointing the finger on Walker and his crappy offense.


I'd like to point the finger at both Walker and his ****ing offense, and our pitching. Oh, and our manager.

LoveYourSuit
06-01-2010, 11:59 PM
John Danks dude.


Seriously, is this the best we can do?

A pitcher notorious for high pitch counts and short outings?

Danks and Floyd had a chance to take this big next step to elite levels after 2008. Are we anywhere close to getting there?


I am so dissapointed with this pitching staff. That is all. I guess it is Hyperbole. I don't care. I just have had about enough of 2 months of these guys. I expected top 3 staff in the league, not this.

october23sp
06-02-2010, 12:02 AM
I just want Peavy gone.

BadBobbyJenks
06-02-2010, 12:03 AM
Seriously, is this the best we can do?

A pitcher notorious for high pitch counts and short outings?

Danks and Floyd had a chance to take this big next step to elite levels after 2008. Are we anywhere close to getting there?


I am so dissapointed with this pitching staff. That is all. I guess it is Hyperbole. I don't care. I just have had about enough of 2 months of these guys. I expected top 3 staff in the league, not this.

The pitching staff has been a giant disappointment, but if Danks gets any run support he is your AL Cy Young front runner. *going into the Tampa game.

WhiteSox5187
06-02-2010, 12:04 AM
Seriously, is this the best we can do?

A pitcher notorious for high pitch counts and short outings?

Danks and Floyd had a chance to take this big next step to elite levels after 2008. Are we anywhere close to getting there?


I am so dissapointed with this pitching staff. That is all. I guess it is Hyperbole. I don't care. I just have had about enough of 2 months of these guys. I expected top 3 staff in the league, not this.

You know that in the past two years Danks has pitched 395 innings, right? And if you thought Floyd was going to become a Cy Young winner after 2008, I'm sorry, I can't help you. But he was a pretty solid #4 pitcher last year which is what he is. ****, he was pretty good as a number three pitcher too but had hip problems.

LoveYourSuit
06-02-2010, 12:05 AM
I just want Peavy gone.

And honestly, I think he is the only hope we have to turning this damn thing around.

An ACE, an anchor.... we badly need that.

Coops4Aces
06-02-2010, 12:06 AM
It may be hyperbole but there is truth to it too. This pitching staff was supposed to be awesome but our ERA is 25th out of 30 MLB teams. You can blame Walker and the offense (and I'm there with you) but if this pitching staff came as advertised, he'd be AT LEAST 500.

october23sp
06-02-2010, 12:07 AM
And honestly, I think he is the only hope we have to turning this damn thing around.

An ACE, an anchor.... we badly need that.

"Are you gunna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"

That's all I can say about Peavy.

WhiteSox5187
06-02-2010, 12:12 AM
It may be hyperbole but there is truth to it too. This pitching staff was supposed to be awesome but our ERA is 25th out of 30 MLB teams. You can blame Walker and the offense (and I'm there with you) but if this pitching staff came as advertised, he'd be AT LEAST 500.

Oh make no mistake the staff sucks this year. The thing is though this is the first time in awhile that I can recall the WHOLE staff sucking this bad (and it's guys with a track record too). The offense has been consistently bad since the second half of 2006 and it's not like we've kept the same guys over and over since 2006. We've brought in new guys and they've sucked which suggests something about Walker. The pitching staff has been fairly good and even some new guys who have looked awful before (like Thornton) have turned it around under Cooper.

Tragg
06-02-2010, 12:33 AM
I don't know if cooper is a fraud but Peavy sure is.

4 pitchers plus a big fat salary...for that.

DirtySox
06-02-2010, 12:34 AM
"Are you gunna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"

That's all I can say about Peavy.

I would tend to agree. That aspect of Peavy rubs me the wrong way. I'm not a big fan of his.

thomas35forever
06-02-2010, 01:01 AM
Peavy leaving is the last thing that will happen to this pitching staff. If Teahen doesn't leave, neither will he. Both are locked up. If anyone should be pointed at, it should be Floyd.

Also, nobody on this team is going to be given the boot just because they can't back up what they say.

GoGoCrede
06-02-2010, 01:03 AM
Peavy leaving is the last thing that will happen to this pitching staff. If Teahen doesn't leave, neither will he. Both are locked up. If anyone should be pointed at, it should be Floyd.



:club:
:tongue:

DumpJerry
06-02-2010, 08:08 AM
John Danks dude.
plus Thornton, plus Santos

jabrch
06-02-2010, 08:12 AM
This is an awesome thread! Sox fans rock!

balke
06-02-2010, 08:56 AM
The Sox are where they are because of this pile of garbage.

It's time to unload on these guys and the coach, the untouchable.


Is this the best you can do to insult the pitching coach? A pile of garbage?

Year after year I see these posts get weaker and weaker at WSI. I'm completely sick of it. I think we need a new posting coach - these trolls are the worst in the MLB message board community.

Oh - and don't give me any of that post count / thread hit crap. That's a terrible way to judge a poster.

WhiteSox1989
06-02-2010, 09:10 AM
I just want Peavy gone.
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2779/mike.gif

I wouldn't give up on Peavy just yet.

stevied23
06-02-2010, 09:53 AM
I'm hoping Peavy just has a tired arm right now and that he will snap out of it but I haven't seen anything real special from him this year. His fastball seems to be about 3-4mph from where it should be and his slider has been pretty ineffective, well ineffective until it starts working for him after he's given up 5 runs in the first two innings.

TheOldRoman
06-02-2010, 10:15 AM
Is this the best you can do to insult the pitching coach? A pile of garbage?

Year after year I see these posts get weaker and weaker at WSI. I'm completely sick of it. I think we need a new posting coach - these trolls are the worst in the MLB message board community.

Oh - and don't give me any of that post count / thread hit crap. That's a terrible way to judge a poster.I agree, there are some real degenerates posting on message boards. Bad game? "**** you, Mark Buehrle!" Slow start? "Paul Konerko is a ****ing piece of ****!" Rough season? "I hope Scott Linebrink dies!" And if all else fails, you can just stomp your feet and call players obese.

dickallen15
06-02-2010, 10:37 AM
Jenks was bad in the second half of 2006, but Politte and Cotts were gone and replaced by Thornton and MacDougal (who were both quite effective in 2006, shocking). In 2007 the bullpen was crap but I blame a lot of that on Kenny who was expecting Cooper to work miracles on the likes of Ryan Bukvich, Andy Sisco, and Mike Myers. In 2008 the bullpen was fantastic until Linebrink went down and then guys like Masset and Logan were exposed and that hurt. 2009 was again a good year outside of Linebrink and Jenks. Jenks has just fell off a cliff and no pitching coach can help him right now and the same is probably true for Linebrink but he has an untradeable contract.

So there are excuses for Cooper, but offenses built so solidly Wise and Lillibridge are leading off should score lots of runs or the hitting coach is a dope?

We can use the same argument people have with Walker, maybe they need a new voice. Will Peavy Buehrle and Floyd and Jenks be any worse with another coach?

To be honest, I don't think any of the Sox failure is coaching related. They have a bad roster.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-02-2010, 11:25 AM
"Are you gunna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gunna bite?"

That's all I can say about Peavy.

Peavy HAS to be hurt. Nothing else explains this. Not the league-change, not the ballparks, nothing. There is too huge a drop-off in performance to explain it other than some sort of nagging pain or injury.

SephClone89
06-02-2010, 11:28 AM
I agree, there are some real degenerates posting on message boards. Bad game? "**** you, Mark Buehrle!" Slow start? "Paul Konerko is a ****ing piece of ****!" Rough season? "I hope Scott Linebrink dies!" And if all else fails, you can just stomp your feet and call players obese.

Bravo.

EDIT:

You forgot the always detailed, thoughtful, accurate "he sucks." That is the absolute worst, I think.

PennStater98r
06-02-2010, 11:44 AM
Is this the best you can do to insult the pitching coach? A pile of garbage?

Year after year I see these posts get weaker and weaker at WSI. I'm completely sick of it. I think we need a new posting coach - these trolls are the worst in the MLB message board community.

Oh - and don't give me any of that post count / thread hit crap. That's a terrible way to judge a poster.

This is true - sometimes I wonder if the posters are 14 and don't understand baseball... other than what the stats on the back of their baseball cards say.

SI1020
06-02-2010, 11:56 AM
Peavy HAS to be hurt. Nothing else explains this. Not the league-change, not the ballparks, nothing. There is too huge a drop-off in performance to explain it other than some sort of nagging pain or injury. I agree.

Hitmen77
06-02-2010, 12:01 PM
The pitchers have sucked, but last year they led the league in pitching. They have consistently had good pitching since Cooper has been year. This year is the exception. The offense has been bad since, well, the second half of 2006 regardless of what personnel they have.

Oh make no mistake the staff sucks this year. The thing is though this is the first time in awhile that I can recall the WHOLE staff sucking this bad (and it's guys with a track record too). The offense has been consistently bad since the second half of 2006 and it's not like we've kept the same guys over and over since 2006. We've brought in new guys and they've sucked which suggests something about Walker. The pitching staff has been fairly good and even some new guys who have looked awful before (like Thornton) have turned it around under Cooper.

I completely agree with your point. While I agree that Cooper should be accountable for our pitching struggles this year, we haven't had the same situation with our pitching as our hitting.

Like you said, the most damning thing about the hitting is that we're going on 4 years of almost constant under performing. Players come and go and we get the same results....and no, it's not just the DeWayne Wises of the lineup either. Pitching on the other hand hasn't suffered from chronic disappointing results over a period of years.

SI1020
06-02-2010, 12:01 PM
I agree, there are some real degenerates posting on message boards. Bad game? "**** you, Mark Buehrle!" Slow start? "Paul Konerko is a ****ing piece of ****!" Rough season? "I hope Scott Linebrink dies!" And if all else fails, you can just stomp your feet and call players obese. The team is lousy and the entire organization appears to be in state of disarray. Some take a more cerebral approach than others when posting about this. That's just the nature of message boards. You can't pretend that things are rosy and this is a contending team.

TheOldRoman
06-02-2010, 12:22 PM
The team is lousy and the entire organization appears to be in state of disarray. Some take a more cerebral approach than others when posting about this. That's just the nature of message boards. You can't pretend that things are rosy and this is a contending team.What does that have to do with personally insulting players? I don't think I have ever taken offense to someone saying a player had a horrible game, has been awful this season, should be cut/traded, etc. I do have a problem with morons saying "**** you Bobby Jenks, you obese drunken piece of ****" Do you see the distinction?

It's Dankerific
06-02-2010, 12:25 PM
What does that have to do with personally insulting players? I don't think I have ever taken offense to someone saying a player had a horrible game, has been awful this season, should be cut/traded, etc. I do have a problem with morons saying "**** you Bobby Jenks, you obese drunken piece of ****" Do you see the distinction?

I think personal insults come as part of the deal from making millions of dollars.

I'm a lot more ok with the stuff said about Jenks and Linebrink than I am a guy like Lillibridge who only gets tastes of the MLB minimum and spends mosts his time riding buses and getting on delayed planes.

DirtySox
06-02-2010, 12:26 PM
Hyperbole. It exists.

TheCommander
06-02-2010, 12:30 PM
Sox fans need to unload on this group and for once stop only pointing the finger on Walker and his crappy offense.

Since when did it become your responsibility to tell us how to be a fan? Go ahead and take a **** on Coop and the pitching staff and leave us to respond to this season in whatever way we see fit.

SI1020
06-02-2010, 12:32 PM
What does that have to do with personally insulting players? I don't think I have ever taken offense to someone saying a player had a horrible game, has been awful this season, should be cut/traded, etc. I do have a problem with morons saying "**** you Bobby Jenks, you obese drunken piece of ****" Do you see the distinction? Like I said. Some take a more cerebral approach than others.

TheOldRoman
06-02-2010, 12:36 PM
I think personal insults come as part of the deal from making millions of dollars.

I'm a lot more ok with the stuff said about Jenks and Linebrink than I am a guy like Lillibridge who only gets tastes of the MLB minimum and spends mosts his time riding buses and getting on delayed planes.No, they don't. It isn't acceptable to call someone a piece of **** just because they had a bad game or a bad season. And most of the times it is just a single bad game, so the idiots who throw those terms around are nowhere to be seen when said player does well in a game. Furthermore, it reflects poorly on someone and their intelligence if they can't express their feelings in any way more advanced than "**** you!"

It's Dankerific
06-02-2010, 12:45 PM
No, they don't. It isn't acceptable to call someone a piece of **** just because they had a bad game or a bad season. And most of the times it is just a single bad game, so the idiots who throw those terms around are nowhere to be seen when said player does well in a game. Furthermore, it reflects poorly on someone and their intelligence if they can't express their feelings in any way more advanced than "**** you!"

Sure it is. They can cry on their piles of money.

In my experience, I'd rather be called a piece of **** than have someone accurately describe my failings as an employee or person.

balke
06-02-2010, 01:04 PM
In my experience, I'd rather be called a piece of **** than have someone accurately describe my failings as an employee or person.

Noted.

october23sp
06-02-2010, 01:25 PM
Just so everyone knows, I don't blindly hate Peavy. Before he got here I thought he was awesome, and we got him I was hyped. Now, I think he is bad.

white sox bill
06-02-2010, 01:41 PM
Is this along the same principles as firing Greg Walker?

BadBobbyJenks
06-02-2010, 02:37 PM
Is this along the same principles as firing Greg Walker?

No I think it is a moratorium on Coop will fix em.

SI1020
06-02-2010, 03:20 PM
Just so everyone knows, I don't blindly hate Peavy. Before he got here I thought he was awesome, and we got him I was hyped. Now, I think he is bad. I think he is hurt. He has had problems in the past.

happydude
06-02-2010, 04:00 PM
No, they don't. It isn't acceptable to call someone a piece of **** just because they had a bad game or a bad season. And most of the times it is just a single bad game, so the idiots who throw those terms around are nowhere to be seen when said player does well in a game. Furthermore, it reflects poorly on someone and their intelligence if they can't express their feelings in any way more advanced than "**** you!"

I certainly agree that it would be nice if folks could vent without resorting to calling the players names. I wouldn't say it bothers me when they do; I just believe in being "nice" if its possible.

That being said, the excellent point you are making doesn't seem strengthened by calling others "idiots". It may be that the words they use are rude and the criticism they offer baseless but that can easily be pointed out without engaging in conduct similar to that which offends you. Just my two cents; feel free to ignore it. :smile:

DumpJerry
06-02-2010, 04:10 PM
I think he is hurt. He has had problems in the past.
The Cub fan in my office thinks he was hurt last year (something other than the ankle) because nobody seemed to make a run for him other than the Sox after the Cubs rebuffed the request for half their roster in the Spring.

He's referring to the June failed trade (pre-ankle injury) as well as the July trade which was while he was on the DL.

SI1020
06-02-2010, 04:19 PM
The Cub fan in my office thinks he was hurt last year (something other than the ankle) because nobody seemed to make a run for him other than the Sox after the Cubs rebuffed the request for half their roster in the Spring.

He's referring to the June failed trade (pre-ankle injury) as well as the July trade which was while he was on the DL. I was going to add that maybe the Padres knew something they weren't letting on, but I didn't want to foment any conspiracy theories. Since you posted this I'm going to say that something about this situation doesn't sit well with me. That and it looks to me like Jake is giving the effort but just can't quite deliver when he is on the mound. Not only velocity but movement as well is missing. You can just see him struggling out there.

TheOldRoman
06-02-2010, 04:29 PM
I certainly agree that it would be nice if folks could vent without resorting to calling the players names. I wouldn't say it bothers me when they do; I just believe in being "nice" if its possible.

That being said, the excellent point you are making doesn't seem strengthened by calling others "idiots". It may be that the words they use are rude and the criticism they offer baseless but that can easily be pointed out without engaging in conduct similar to that which offends you. Just my two cents; feel free to ignore it. :smile:Fair enough.:D:

Daver
06-02-2010, 08:33 PM
This thread is a hoot.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2010, 08:39 PM
This team has too many bad baseball players, combined with too many underperforming players, and is poorly coached.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2010, 08:42 PM
Gavin Floyd sucks.

WhiteSox5187
06-02-2010, 08:44 PM
Gavin Floyd sucks.

I know. We're bad all over.

LITTLE NELL
06-02-2010, 09:05 PM
Al Lopez and Ray Berres couldn't help some of these guys.
Floyd, Peavy and Buerhle stink.

WhiteSox5187
06-02-2010, 09:10 PM
Al Lopez and Ray Berres couldn't help some of these guys.
Floyd, Peavy and Buerhle stink.

Other than that though, the rotation is fine!

russ99
06-02-2010, 09:53 PM
Our pitching staff is done. Stick a fork in them.

Time to bring up Hudson. He can't be any worse, and could put in innings after our starters get shelled.

If I were Ozzie, I'd tell these guys that Hudson's taking the spot of the next guy who can't put in 6 decent innings.

We all know our offense is bad, but this is a real letdown.

Daver
06-02-2010, 10:00 PM
Our pitching staff is done. Stick a fork in them.


Yeah, when you have a rotation that is coached to pitch to contact and try to force groundballs that is afraid to pitch to contact because no one behind them can catch a cold then it is definitely time to fire the entire rotation, maybe pelt them with rocks and garbage too.

Brian26
06-02-2010, 10:12 PM
The Cub fan in my office thinks he was hurt last year (something other than the ankle) because nobody seemed to make a run for him other than the Sox after the Cubs rebuffed the request for half their roster in the Spring.

Is that the story now? The Cubs rebuffed the request for half their roster? I seem to recall the Padres telling Hendry to go pound sand when he offered a bag of balls and eight bags of **** for Peavy.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2010, 10:19 PM
Yeah, when you have a rotation that is coached to pitch to contact and try to force groundballs that is afraid to pitch to contact because no one behind them can catch a cold then it is definitely time to fire the entire rotation, maybe pelt them with rocks and garbage too.

I am asking because I want an honest opinion, not a one-liner response. Who on the Sox roster would you put at what positions to improve the defense? And if all the internal options are terrible, what would you do to fix the defense?

It seems to me that the Sox have a decent start with Rios in CF and Alexei at SS, and Paulie is good defensively at 1B, and Beckham is serviceable at 2B (although I'd rather have him play third).

But again, I'm asking you because I know you know a lot about defense.

Daver
06-02-2010, 10:43 PM
I am asking because I want an honest opinion, not a one-liner response. Who on the Sox roster would you put at what positions to improve the defense? And if all the internal options are terrible, what would you do to fix the defense?

It seems to me that the Sox have a decent start with Rios in CF and Alexei at SS, and Paulie is good defensively at 1B, and Beckham is serviceable at 2B (although I'd rather have him play third).

But again, I'm asking you because I know you know a lot about defense.

What would you do?


With Teahen out I would move Beckham back to third, and let Vizquel and Nix platoon at second, when Teahen comes back he can become the third choice at that platoon. Rios is the main bright spot on this roster, he's better than I thought he was, but there really is no way to upgrade the corner spots with this roster, the bench is no better than the starters.

Ramirez pisses me off more than he impresses me, because his talent is better than his production, but there is no one to replace him so it is what it is.

SI1020
06-02-2010, 10:53 PM
This thread is a hoot. So are the White Sox.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2010, 10:54 PM
What would you do?

The choices at third are Beckham or Vizquel. I could go either way, but I might lean toward Beckham staying at second just so he doesn't have to bounce back against when Morel eventually comes up. That puts the Vizquel/Nix platoon at third. That seems to be the better long-term option, unless we don't think Morel will pan out at the MLB level.

For better outfield defense I'd be tempted to move Quentin back to left, to have him share LF/DH duties with Pierre, and have Jones play right.

When Teahen comes back I guess he can be the "super sub."

LoveYourSuit
06-02-2010, 11:44 PM
Yeah, when you have a rotation that is coached to pitch to contact and try to force groundballs that is afraid to pitch to contact because no one behind them can catch a cold then it is definitely time to fire the entire rotation, maybe pelt them with rocks and garbage too.


This is as dumb of an arguement as saying that players "don't play with passion and fire."

Seriously Daver, do you believe this?

Is there a guage out there to test the levels of "afraidness" coming from White Sox pitchers?

Come on now.

I agree with you that this defense sucks a huge egg, but let's not kid ourselves that this is the major reason our pitchers suck.

Nellie_Fox
06-03-2010, 02:13 AM
In my experience, I'd rather be called a piece of **** than have someone accurately describe my failings as an employee or person.Really? Let's leave baseball players and fans out of this for a moment. You'd really rather your boss tell you you're a piece of **** than give you information you can actually use to improve your performance? When I teach management classes, one of the things I emphasize is to avoid making criticism of employees personal. Telling them "you're lazy" isn't at all helpful in improving their performance. Telling them exactly how they're not meeting expectations is.

jabrch
06-03-2010, 02:23 AM
When I teach management classes, one of the things I emphasize is to avoid making criticism of employees personal.

Same is true in the real world. I work for a Fortune 50 company. Our process for performance management is focused on actions and inputs, not on personal observations/attacks. Be specific in what can change and show an employee exactly what they need to be doing to meet your expectations for efforts and inputs and don't just rail on personal characteristics.

You wouldn't last one review cycle here if you managed a person that way.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2010, 02:29 AM
This is true - sometimes I wonder if the posters are 14 and don't understand baseball... other than what the stats on the back of their baseball cards say.
What?
Same is true in the real world. I work for a Fortune 50 company. Our process for performance management is focused on actions and inputs, not on personal observations/attacks. Be specific in what can change and show an employee exactly what they need to be doing to meet your expectations for efforts and inputs and don't just rail on personal characteristics.

You wouldn't last one review cycle here if you managed a person that way.
Cool. The White Sox are a bad baseball team, regardless of your vocation.

Blow the whole damn thing up.

SephClone89
06-03-2010, 02:42 AM
Cool. The White Sox are a bad baseball team, regardless of your vocation.

Blow the whole damn thing up.

Your lack of courtesy and respect for others completely shocks me. They were having a perfectly reasonable conversation about the most constructive ways to criticize someone's performance. Nobody's going on and on about anyone's vocation.

Jesus Christ.

voodoochile
06-03-2010, 02:52 AM
Your lack of courtesy and respect for others completely shocks me. They were having a perfectly reasonable conversation about the most constructive ways to criticize someone's performance. Nobody's going on and on about anyone's vocation.

Jesus Christ.

It's not really your job to be doing that. Technically, it's mine, or even Nellie's. I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it anymore. It crosses the line into both personal attacks and armchair moderating both of which we frown on.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2010, 03:12 AM
He quite clearly dropped the "Fortune 50" nonsense.

Maybe I'm drunk, but it's annoying.

Either way, this is a bad team.

Nellie_Fox
06-03-2010, 03:15 AM
He quite clearly dropped the "Fortune 50" nonsense.

Maybe I'm drunk, but it's annoying.

Either way, this is a bad team.You know, none of that discussion was directed toward you. Stay out of it.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2010, 03:17 AM
You know, none of that discussion was directed toward you. Stay out of it.
Stay out of the discussion about the White Sox?

I don't think Don needs to be fired necessarily, because the defense is more of a problem than the pitching staff.

It's Dankerific
06-03-2010, 04:06 AM
Really? Let's leave baseball players and fans out of this for a moment. You'd really rather your boss tell you you're a piece of **** than give you information you can actually use to improve your performance? When I teach management classes, one of the things I emphasize is to avoid making criticism of employees personal. Telling them "you're lazy" isn't at all helpful in improving their performance. Telling them exactly how they're not meeting expectations is.

There is always a place for constructive criticism, sure. But I'd certainly rather be called a piece of **** than to have someone accurately describe the ways I ruined a long term relationship, for instance. Or, if it has to be workplace related: If I made a big mistake at work that had nothing to do with preparation or effort that was going to make someone lose their job, I certainly wouldn't find it helpful for someone else to sit me down and give me a play by play of how exactly I screwed up. Why? Because I'm already aware of what I did and what happened. I'm concientious and am already working on fixing whatever my issue was. As I assume Bobby Jenks is. Its not like he wants to go out there and fail.

I fail to see the management value of telling Bobby Jenks that he's not meeting expectations because he cant find the strike zone, his ERA is too high and he puts too many runners on base. Like hearing it from you is suddenly going to make him not do those things. It'll probably just make him think about all those events and be even more worried about it. But telling him he's pitching like ****? Thats something he can acknowledge and move on. Even telling him the consequences of his continued poor performance is more helpful.



Same is true in the real world. I work for a Fortune 50 company. Our process for performance management is focused on actions and inputs, not on personal observations/attacks. Be specific in what can change and show an employee exactly what they need to be doing to meet your expectations for efforts and inputs and don't just rail on personal characteristics.

You wouldn't last one review cycle here if you managed a person that way.

Actually, I live in the real world too.


My main point is that a personal attack can be easily blown off. How exactly do you blow off true and accurate statements about your shortcomings?

Considering that talking about a baseball player on a message board has nothing to do with managing him, I dont see the connection. Do I think Ozzie should call Jenks a bunch of names? No. Do I think he probably does it.. you judge for yourself. If I'm driving down the street and I just ran over someone's dog by accident, will it be worse for me to hear someone call me an ******* or to have someone tell me how I should have seen the dog, I should have hit the brakes sooner and just how much the family is going to miss that dog. a thousand times worse. And you know what, thats what I said in the first place.

BadBobbyJenks
06-03-2010, 05:24 AM
Yeah, when you have a rotation that is coached to pitch to contact and try to force groundballs that is afraid to pitch to contact because no one behind them can catch a cold then it is definitely time to fire the entire rotation, maybe pelt them with rocks and garbage too.

If you had to put a percentage on who is to blame between the starting rotation and the defense, what would that be?

masloan
06-03-2010, 05:28 AM
There is always a place for constructive criticism, sure. But I'd certainly rather be called a piece of **** than to have someone accurately describe the ways I ruined a long term relationship, for instance. Or, if it has to be workplace related: If I made a big mistake at work that had nothing to do with preparation or effort that was going to make someone lose their job, I certainly wouldn't find it helpful for someone else to sit me down and give me a play by play of how exactly I screwed up. Why? Because I'm already aware of what I did and what happened. I'm concientious and am already working on fixing whatever my issue was. As I assume Bobby Jenks is. Its not like he wants to go out there and fail.

I fail to see the management value of telling Bobby Jenks that he's not meeting expectations because he cant find the strike zone, his ERA is too high and he puts too many runners on base. Like hearing it from you is suddenly going to make him not do those things. It'll probably just make him think about all those events and be even more worried about it. But telling him he's pitching like ****? Thats something he can acknowledge and move on. Even telling him the consequences of his continued poor performance is more helpful.





Actually, I live in the real world too.


My main point is that a personal attack can be easily blown off. How exactly do you blow off true and accurate statements about your shortcomings?

Considering that talking about a baseball player on a message board has nothing to do with managing him, I dont see the connection. Do I think Ozzie should call Jenks a bunch of names? No. Do I think he probably does it.. you judge for yourself. If I'm driving down the street and I just ran over someone's dog by accident, will it be worse for me to hear someone call me an ******* or to have someone tell me how I should have seen the dog, I should have hit the brakes sooner and just how much the family is going to miss that dog. a thousand times worse. And you know what, thats what I said in the first place.

Wow. You are one of the dumbest and least intelligent posters I have ever read on any message board.

You would rather hear that than for me to explain why right?

doublem23
06-03-2010, 09:45 AM
Wow. You are one of the dumbest and least intelligent posters I have ever read on any message board.

You would rather hear that than for me to explain why right?

Enjoy your week off.

DumpJerry
06-03-2010, 09:53 AM
I was at the "Gavin Floyd attempts to impersonate a pitcher" game last night. After the third inning, I was in the Bullpen Sports Bar watching the Hawks game with a guy whose brother is the Yankee scout who has signed, among others, Joba Chamberlin.

The brother was texting about the plight of the Sox since we were having such a stellar game going on (the scout is a former pitcher in the Yankee system). One of the comments he made was "they should have traded Jenks when he had value."

asindc
06-03-2010, 10:05 AM
I was at the "Gavin Floyd attempts to impersonate a pitcher" game last night. After the third inning, I was in the Bullpen Sports Bar watching the Hawks game with a guy whose brother is the Yankee scout who has signed, among others, Joba Chamberlin.

The brother was texting about the plight of the Sox since we were having such a stellar game going on (the scout is a former pitcher in the Yankee system). One of the comments he made was "they should have traded Jenks when he had value."

That's true, and it gets back to the major shortcoming of the KW era, the pitiful state of the farm system. With an adequate farm system, we would have at least a couple of young arms to move up into the middle relief role while we move either Thornton (or now Santos) into the closer's role. I wonder if some of our starters would be pitching differently if they knew there were a couple of young arms in the system just itching to take their spots in the rotation? Maybe not, but I would like to have the scenario in place.

LoveYourSuit
06-03-2010, 12:43 PM
I was at the "Gavin Floyd attempts to impersonate a pitcher" game last night. After the third inning, I was in the Bullpen Sports Bar watching the Hawks game with a guy whose brother is the Yankee scout who has signed, among others, Joba Chamberlin.

The brother was texting about the plight of the Sox since we were having such a stellar game going on (the scout is a former pitcher in the Yankee system). One of the comments he made was "they should have traded Jenks when he had value."


But in reality, how high was Jenks' value ever at its peak?

Jenks has had a reputation of carrying a ton of baggage (personal, weight, injuries, etc). I don't think Kenny's phone was ever ringing off the hook for this guy as many think. Kenny's big mistake was giving him the current $8 million deal instead of "non tendering" him.

Another factor is the "folk hero" status Sox fans have put on Jenks. Moving Jenks would have been a very un-popular move because sadly like on every team, we have a ton of ignorant baseball fans. Just look back to Rowand, BA, Crede, Pods.

TheOldRoman
06-03-2010, 12:52 PM
I was at the "Gavin Floyd attempts to impersonate a pitcher" game last night. After the third inning, I was in the Bullpen Sports Bar watching the Hawks game with a guy whose brother is the Yankee scout who has signed, among others, Joba Chamberlin.

The brother was texting about the plight of the Sox since we were having such a stellar game going on (the scout is a former pitcher in the Yankee system). One of the comments he made was "they should have traded Jenks when he had value."Maybe I don't know the system well enough, but that sounds fishy to me. Do scouts "sign" American players any more? Chaimberlain was drafted.

shingo10
06-03-2010, 01:03 PM
But in reality, how high was Jenks' value ever at its peak?

Jenks has had a reputation of carrying a ton of baggage (personal, weight, injuries, etc). I don't think Kenny's phone was ever ringing off the hook for this guy as many think. Kenny's big mistake was giving him the current $8 million deal instead of "non tendering" him.

Another factor is the "folk hero" status Sox fans have put on Jenks. Moving Jenks would have been a very un-popular move because sadly like on every team, we have a ton of ignorant baseball fans. Just look back to Rowand, BA, Crede, Pods.


Jenks was a premiere closer in 2006-2007. He was about as close to automatic as you could be during that timeframe so I'm sure he would have yielded a pretty good return. But it would have been downright silly to get rid of him. Why give up one of the best closers in the game?

Obviously he no longer has that status now and we are stuck with him but really there are worse things about the club than being stuck with a closer who's gone from great to mediocre.

WhiteSox5187
06-03-2010, 03:13 PM
Jenks was a premiere closer in 2006-2007. He was about as close to automatic as you could be during that timeframe so I'm sure he would have yielded a pretty good return. But it would have been downright silly to get rid of him. Why give up one of the best closers in the game?

Obviously he no longer has that status now and we are stuck with him but really there are worse things about the club than being stuck with a closer who's gone from great to mediocre.

He was damn good in 2008 too. I recall reading prior to the 2009 season that the Sox should trade him as Thornton was percieved to be ready as a closer, but I thought that was silly at the time as Jenks was coming off of a stellar 2008 and there was little reason to believe he wouldn't be good in 2009. I was wrong.

LoveYourSuit
06-03-2010, 07:05 PM
Jenks was a premiere closer in 2006-2007. He was about as close to automatic as you could be during that timeframe so I'm sure he would have yielded a pretty good return. But it would have been downright silly to get rid of him. Why give up one of the best closers in the game?

Obviously he no longer has that status now and we are stuck with him but really there are worse things about the club than being stuck with a closer who's gone from great to mediocre.


By White Sox fan accounts, yes. Some would even argue he was better than Mariano (insanity) :rolleyes:

But that doesn't matter for other scouts and GMs around the game. Jenks was never seen as anything special where a team would unload a boat load of talend to acquire him. Closers are never seen this way unless your name is Mariano.

Nellie_Fox
06-04-2010, 01:07 AM
By this logic, every player should be traded when they have a good season, for fear that their value may go down in subsequent seasons. Hindsight is such a valuable commodity. It's very easy to tell when a player should have been traded a couple of years ago; it's very hard to know if a particular successful player should be traded NOW.

It's Dankerific
06-04-2010, 01:54 AM
By this logic, every player should be traded when they have a good season, for fear that their value may go down in subsequent seasons. Hindsight is such a valuable commodity. It's very easy to tell when a player should have been traded a couple of years ago; it's very hard to know if a particular successful player should be traded NOW.

To some extent that is true. I think it more depends on how easily you are able to cut bait.

I hate that we continue to pay and then play people based on salary. I'd much prefer to keep guys until they're bad and dump them rather than trade when they're at a very profitable trading point. However, given the knowledge that they're more likely to handcuff the organization in future seasons, I'm more of the mind that we should trade people early.

Craig Grebeck
06-04-2010, 01:57 AM
By this logic, every player should be traded when they have a good season, for fear that their value may go down in subsequent seasons. Hindsight is such a valuable commodity. It's very easy to tell when a player should have been traded a couple of years ago; it's very hard to know if a particular successful player should be traded NOW.
That's an awfully broad brush. In the case of relief pitchers, it's a good strategy much of the time.

balke
06-04-2010, 04:04 AM
By White Sox fan accounts, yes. Some would even argue he was better than Mariano (insanity) :rolleyes:

But that doesn't matter for other scouts and GMs around the game. Jenks was never seen as anything special where a team would unload a boat load of talend to acquire him. Closers are never seen this way unless your name is Mariano.

I don't think this is true at all. When he was hitting 101 while dropping that hammer curveball - he was tradeable. But why would you? (See: Keith Foulke)

And boatload would be tough to get for just about any reliever - but Bobby could've been turned into 2-3 good prospects. If they were to go that route - it needed to be 2007.

LoveYourSuit
06-04-2010, 11:36 AM
I don't think this is true at all. When he was hitting 101 while dropping that hammer curveball - he was tradeable. But why would you? (See: Keith Foulke)

And boatload would be tough to get for just about any reliever - but Bobby could've been turned into 2-3 good prospects. If they were to go that route - it needed to be 2007.


In honesty, I don't think too many scouts cared for it realizing that it is a matter of time for this to flame out.

Besides, you are looking at a massive out of shape thrower. Very high risk.

balke
06-04-2010, 12:08 PM
In honesty, I don't think too many scouts cared for it realizing that it is a matter of time for this to flame out.

Besides, you are looking at a massive out of shape thrower. Very high risk.

Yes... noone wanted the lowest WHIP for a closer in baseball. Top 5 in saves. 56/13 K/BB. They weren't interested at all. Him and Sabathia and the like are just too fat for the physical game of baseball. :scratch:

WhiteSoxFTW
06-04-2010, 12:30 PM
Wasn't his value still high enough to get something out of him after 2008? Everyone seemed to think it was. KW just didn't pull the trigger.

Hindsight it was a bad move. At the time, it could've gone either way.