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soxinem1
05-30-2010, 04:55 PM
Pierre and Omar thowing leather and Nix with the big Grand Slam.

Another nice game for Rios and the bullpen.

The Dr. Jekyll version of the 2010 White Sox played today. Let's hope the Mr. Hyde personna gets lost at the airport and goes unclaimed.

GoGoCrede
05-30-2010, 04:56 PM
The thread title could use a few more puns.

Great win, glad we split the series. On the whole, we're becoming much more consistent.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2010, 04:57 PM
That's three straight series that the Sox have not lost.

I wish it could have been three straight winning series but you take what you can get.

Baby steps.

Nelfox02
05-30-2010, 04:58 PM
Entertaining game today---great win (especially after yesterday’s clunker). Before this trip I said 2 of 3 in Cle and a split in TB would be very good (5-2 trip would have had me ecstatic but….) and they did it.

Pierre some great D today, thought this game was tied for sure when Upton hit that ball, and a nice diving grab. Vizquel some big hits and a fine defensive play to nail Pena at third. Rios continues to be a beast. And obviously Nix shocking go ahead slam when it appeared the wheels were starting to fall off this game in the middle innings. Bullpen did the job too. Pena coming along finally?

Peavy again disappointing, he battled early but was not all that sharp and once again had zero slider and falling behind almost every hitter. I expected him to fall off a bit coming to the AL, and leaving Petco…..but not become what he is
I was expecting a strong start from him today as well

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 04:58 PM
That's one burned out bullpen for this trip.

Off day will be huge.

Still concerned about Peavy.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 04:59 PM
I'll take a split in Tampa and run to the off day. Peavy wasn't great, but he kept the Sox in it and the offense delivered.

Heck of an at bat from Nix to fight back from 0-2 then stay controlled on the 3-2 pitch and give the Sox some breathing room.

I know a lot of people were probably holding their breath when Pena came out for the ninth, but was a good job and the final two changeups to Pena were simply sick. Nice job by Matt to go two and give the team a chance. Guess Bobby is still recuperating.

:soxwin:

:)

JermaineDye05
05-30-2010, 05:00 PM
Quote of the day:

Hawk: "Omar's 1-3. For the time being broke the tie with Luis Aparacio."

Stone:" [chuckles] Unless Luis comes up with a couple hits today."

konerko 14
05-30-2010, 05:00 PM
very good road trip: first taking 2 of three from the Indians then splitting the series with the Rays. :)

It's Dankerific
05-30-2010, 05:01 PM
Lets send some props to Thornton. Getting the job done, again.

balke
05-30-2010, 05:01 PM
Peavy again disappointing, he battled early but was not all that sharp and once again had zero slider and falling behind almost every hitter. I expected him to fall off a bit coming to the AL, and leaving Petco…..but not become what he is
I was expecting a strong start from him today as well


Not being in Petco shouldn't affect his control this much. Its just an easy answer for people - he's in a funk and needs to get out. The sooner the better - but luckily this team has some players stepping up lately.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2010, 05:02 PM
Not being in Petco shouldn't affect his control this much. Its just an easy answer for people - he's in a funk and needs to get out. The sooner the better - but luckily this team has some players stepping up lately.

I hate to say it but I think his shoulder's in a funk. May need a trip on the DL.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:03 PM
Not being in Petco shouldn't affect his control this much. Its just an easy answer for people - he's in a funk and needs to get out. The sooner the better - but luckily this team has some players stepping up lately.


Velocity is down too.

94 - 95 mph does not exist for him right now. It doesn't help that he can't get a slider over to save his life.

thomas35forever
05-30-2010, 05:04 PM
Nice win to get the split in Tampa. Nix's salami was a nice surprise.

Can someone explain why Pena did get credit for a save?:scratch:

balke
05-30-2010, 05:04 PM
Lets send some props to Thornton. Getting the job done, again.

Don't forget - Pena has been awesome lately. Something like 2 ER in his past 13 IP. Glad he was able to come in and finish off the game.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:06 PM
very good road trip: first taking 2 of three from the Indians then splitting the series with the Rays. :)

A "very good" trip to me would be winning both series.

4-3 keeps us alive for now, but we need to get on a serious run like win 8 of 10 (something we have yet to see all year).


It starts with the starting pitching. Right now, I don't see it.

October26
05-30-2010, 05:06 PM
Enjoyed watching this White Sox winner! Nice job by the Sox to pull together and win this game after last night's disaster. I am also glad we split with Tampa, as I feared a sweep by the Rays before this series started.

Very happy for all White Sox fans watching the game today, especially those in attendance at the Trop, including Little Nell and his wife.

:D: WOO-HOO! :bandance::bandance:

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:07 PM
Nice win to get the split in Tampa. Nix's salami was a nice surprise.

Can someone explain why Pena did get credit for a save?:scratch:

3 run lead and came in to pitch with 1 out and no one on.

ChicagoG19
05-30-2010, 05:07 PM
Exciting game. Juan made some nice defensive plays. Glad to escape with a split on the road against the best team in baseball. :bandance::bandance::bandance:

balke
05-30-2010, 05:07 PM
A "very good" trip to me would be winning both series.

4-3 keeps us alive for now, but we need to get on a serious run like win 8 of 10 (something we have yet to see all year).


It starts with the starting pitching. Right now, I don't see it.

I don't think the run is coming. I'd settle for a .700 + winning percentage in June though.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:08 PM
Exciting game. Juan made some nice defensive plays. Glad to escape with a sweep on the road against the best team in baseball. :bandance::bandance::bandance:


I sweep would have been amazing, but I think you meant a split.

thomas35forever
05-30-2010, 05:08 PM
3 run lead and came in to pitch with 1 out and no one on.
So if no one is on, do you only get credit for the save if you pitch a full inning?

soxinem1
05-30-2010, 05:09 PM
Nice win to get the split in Tampa. Nix's salami was a nice surprise.

Can someone explain why Pena did get credit for a save?:scratch:

He came in with an out and the potential tying run was not in the on deck circle.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:09 PM
I don't think the run is coming. I'd settle for a .700 + winning percentage in June though.


If we play .700 ball in June, no quetion we are back in it.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:11 PM
So if no one is on, do you only get credit for the save if you pitch a full inning?

correct.
3 outs = 3 runs.


or

If you come in with the tying run on deck.

Mohoney
05-30-2010, 05:11 PM
Quote of the day:

Hawk: "Omar's 1-3. For the time being broke the tie with Luis Aparacio."

Stone:" [chuckles] Unless Luis comes up with a couple hits today."

Stone had another really good one Thursday night.

Hawk was comparing the Rays to the Blackhawks and said: "They're young, like the Rays. They're agressive, like the Rays."

Stone said: "They draw like the Rays, too."

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:14 PM
Stone had another really good one Thursday night.

Hawk was comparing the Rays to the Blackhawks and said: "They're young, like the Rays. They're agressive, like the Rays."

Stone said: "They draw like the Rays, too."

They were pounding the Rays fans for the lack of attendance.

I kind of find it awkward being that in 2005 we supported the Sox in similar numbers and some nights struggled to draw.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2010, 05:16 PM
It was nice to see the team play like they weren't just waiting for the free snow cone at the end of the game.

SI1020
05-30-2010, 05:19 PM
They were pounding the Rays fans for the lack of attendance.

I kind of find it awkward being that in 2005 we supported the Sox in similar numbers and some nights struggled to draw. The White Sox drew 2.3 million, 7th out of 14 in the AL in 2005. The Rays didn't even draw 2 million and were 12th out of 14 in 2008. So far this year the Rays are 9th out of 14.

ChicagoG19
05-30-2010, 05:20 PM
I sweep would have been amazing, but I think you meant a split.

Thanks for the correction. I meant split.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:24 PM
The White Sox drew 2.3 million, 7th out of 14 in the AL in 2005. The Rays didn't even draw 2 million and were 12th out of 14 in 2008. So far this year the Rays are 9th out of 14.


I think we were averaging about 22K into the All Star break.

So right in line with what the Rays are doing this year.


All I'm saying is that our announcers shouldn't talk or criticize realizing that we have our own issues when it comes to putting fans in the seats.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 05:25 PM
3 run lead and came in to pitch with 1 out and no one on.

Wow, I didn't know that you had to pitch a full inning to get credit for the save with a 3-run lead...

Sam Spade
05-30-2010, 05:28 PM
Wow, I didn't know that you had to pitch a full inning to get credit for the save with a 3-run lead...

I don't think you do. If there was someone on, wouldn't he have gotten credit?

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:29 PM
Wow, I didn't know that you had to pitch a full inning to get credit for the save with a 3-run lead...


The exception to that is come in with the tying run on-deck.

Some closers have picked up 1 out saves this way.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:30 PM
I don't think you do. If there was someone on, wouldn't he have gotten credit?

Yes, that would mean the guy on-deck would be the tying run.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 05:32 PM
To qualify for a Save:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_(baseball)

TDog
05-30-2010, 05:35 PM
I don't think there is anything Jekyll and Hyde about this team at all. The only difference between Sunday and Saturday was the starting pitcher gutted it out today and the pitching was helped by great defense when it mattered. There were different players responsible for the poor pitching and defense yesterday. In both games the Sox hit the ball well but missed some scoring opportunities. The first game in the series, they faced better pitching, and the second game of the series, they got much better pitching.

The Sox went into Tampa Bay and split four, and even won a game where they didn't get particularly good starting pitching.

Today's game is precisely the sort of game that you wouldn't expect the White Sox to win because it required some hitting and some strong defense. Really, I wouldn't mind Vizquel playing every day for his defense considering the alternative with either Teahen or Beckham. (Right now, the upgrade of defense is greater at third, but he downgrade with offense is less at second, although I am hoping Beckham will come around offensively to at least be the .250 hitter I expected him to be in his sophomore season.) And I thought Vizquel should have retired while watching him play in each of the last two seasons. He rather reminds me of Aurelio Rodriguez with the 1983 White Sox.

Obviously, the White Sox should have scored more runs today. Even if they get no more hits in the first after the first three hitters, they should have scored three. Unfortunately one of only three strikeouts by the Sox this afternoon came from Konerko in the first. The Sox scored a second run on the Kotsay groundout, but that run would have been there at third for Kotsay to drive in with an out had Konerko gone the other way with a ground ball or a healthy fly to drive in a run. In the second, a leadoff double was wasted when Ramirez failed to move Teahen to third. I feel these offenses are too long for my list to be inclusive.

However, I have no problem with the suicide squeeze attempt in the eighth. In the context of the game, a three-run lead felt smaller, and the run was necessary. Pierre is an exceptional bunter. Vizquel is an experienced baserunner. The catcher is defensively suspect. With the havoc created with the runner coming home, Pierre would have a good chance of reaching first. The only thing that could beat you there would be the pitchout. I don't know if the Rays guessed right, if the runner or batter tipped the play or if the Rays stole the sign. Fortunately, the run wasn't needed.

It could have been nice to have gotten six full innings out of Peavy today. It demanded Thornton pitch an extra inning today. Fortunately, the Sox are off on Monday, but it might be Wednesday before he can come back. I hope Buehrle has a strong game Tuesday.

soxfanatlanta
05-30-2010, 05:38 PM
A split in Tampa? I'll take it!

TDog
05-30-2010, 05:51 PM
Wow, I didn't know that you had to pitch a full inning to get credit for the save with a 3-run lead...

There was a time when you could get a save with a double-digit lead, facing only a single batter with no one on base. John Hiller of the Tigers sort of ruined it for everyone.

In 1973, Hiller and the Tigers were among the first to take the five-year-old save rule seriously. Hiller set a record that year with 38 saves, under the rule that a reliever who finishes a win who is not the winning pitcher gets a save. (Saves figured retroactively before 1968 are figured this way.) I remember reading a letter to The Sporting News complaining about his 37th save, arguing the rule needed to be changed.

Hiller came on in the ninth inning in relief of 20-game winner Joe Coleman who had a 10-0 lead against the Orioles. Hiller gave up three hits and a run and was awarded his record-setting (perhaps record-extending, I don't remember, but I believe it was record-breaking) 37th save. I also don't remember if the save rule was changed during the off-season. But the rule has been changed several time since.

Now, the only way you can get a save if you come in with a three-run lead and no one on base is if you pitch at least an inning. I think it should be scaled back further. If you could only get a save if you came in with a one-run lead or the tying run at the plate, I think you would see fewer managers managing according to the save rule. The fact that managers manage to the save rule is what makes the save such an unfortunate statistic.

To the credit of the White Sox today, pitching changes were not dictated by the save rule. For that, the coaching staff should be given credit.

Mohoney
05-30-2010, 05:55 PM
Now, the only way you can get a save if you come in with a three-run lead and no one on base is if you pitch at least an inning. I think it should be scaled back further. If you could only get a save if you came in with a one-run lead or the tying run at the plate, I think you would see fewer managers managing according to the save rule. The fact that managers manage to the save rule is what makes the save such an unfortunate statistic.

The Players' Union would go crazy if that happened.

Frankfan4life
05-30-2010, 06:00 PM
Enjoyed watching this White Sox winner! Nice job by the Sox to pull together and win this game after last night's disaster. I am also glad we split with Tampa, as I feared a sweep by the Rays before this series started.

Very happy for all White Sox fans watching the game today, especially those in attendance at the Trop, including Little Nell and his wife.

:D: WOO-HOO! :bandance::bandance:Oh, the noise, the noise, noise, noise. Drums, horns, cowbells.... good grief! Grand Slam = Muffler. It's a challenge sitting through a Rays home game but Nix's homer pretty much quieted the crowd and Santos, Thornton and Pena made sure the Rays didn't take the lead. Kudos to Juan for the great defense.

I didn't expect much when the series began so I'm pleasantly surprised that the Sox managed to get a split.

TDog
05-30-2010, 06:04 PM
The Players' Union would go crazy if that happened.

I believe the players' union has input into rule changes, including scoring rule changes.

Of course, no one is interested with doing away with most saves, except perhaps for me, and I'm not employed by major league baseball in any capacity. To change the save rule to make it mean something, you would have to go back to its origin in 1968. Maybe there is a parallel universe out there where managers don't manage by the save rule and use different relievers to close out games when they don't leave their starters in to finish what they started.

guillensdisciple
05-30-2010, 06:04 PM
Happy we won, now win some in succession damnit!

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 06:19 PM
The exception to that is come in with the tying run on-deck.

Some closers have picked up 1 out saves this way.

No that I knew. Anytime you enter the game with the tying run on deck you are eligible for a save. Just didn't realize the three run rule required at least a full inning of outs...

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 06:25 PM
I believe the players' union has input into rule changes, including scoring rule changes.

Of course, no one is interested with doing away with most saves, except perhaps for me, and I'm not employed by major league baseball in any capacity. To change the save rule to make it mean something, you would have to go back to its origin in 1968. Maybe there is a parallel universe out there where managers don't manage by the save rule and use different relievers to close out games when they don't leave their starters in to finish what they started.

Yeah, that's what the point was. The union only cares about one thing, increasing salaries and having more high paid players. Since closers as they are currently used/termed make a lot more money than middle relievers and setup men, the union wants the save rule at least preserved if not extended to make it easier. I believe it was a union argument that got the hold accepted and then renewed as a statistic to improve middle reliever's and setup salaries as a way of showing the player was doing the same thing as the "closer" just earlier in the game. It hasn't really caught on yet in terms of arbitration payoffs, but maybe one day it will.

russ99
05-30-2010, 07:35 PM
Good deal, I'll take a split in Tampa.

We still need to start getting some wins in a row, before I'm convinced that this team has any chance.

And as usual, my favorite whipping boy, Mr. Quentin had an awful day, 0-3 with 1K, 2 LOB and a run from a hit-by-pitch dropping his average to .211

Some of you love to rip on Pierre, Teahen and Kotsay, but they're really not too far off from giving us what we expected. Carlos has given us very far from what we expected, to the point of thinking Jack Cust would have been an improvement.

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 07:37 PM
Good deal, I'll take a split in Tampa.

We still need to start getting some wins in a row, before I'm convinced that this team has any chance.

And as usual, my favorite whipping boy, Mr. Quentin had an awful day, 0-3 with 1K, 2 LOB and a run from a hit-by-pitch dropping his average to .211

Some of you love to rip on Pierre, Teahen and Kotsay, but they're really not too far off from giving us what we expected. Carlos has given us very far from what we expected, to the point of thinking Jack Cust would have been an improvement.
Because they suck.

With the exception of Pierre defensively, who (warning: small sample size) has the second best UZR for all left-fielders. Good job, Juan.

Boondock Saint
05-30-2010, 07:42 PM
Because they suck.

With the exception of Pierre defensively, who (warning: small sample size) has the second best UZR for all left-fielders. Good job, Juan.

I'm going to preface this question by saying that I don't think that Pierre is at all a good defensive player. But at what point do you say he's had a quality sample size? He's started almost every single game this year, and we're 1/3 of the way done with the season now.

LITTLE NELL
05-30-2010, 07:47 PM
Just back from our annual visit to the Trop to see our Sox.
Great win, Nix really came through. What happened to Teahen?
Cowbells were in abundance but the Rays have a little blurb on the board before the game as to when you should ring them. Like when there is 2 strikes on the opposing batter, for any kind of a hit or great play by a Ray or during a rally. I guess there was just too much ringing going on and fans complained so they got their wish.
The Sox really had their hitting shoes on and what a day for Pierre with the glove.
Except for the stupid catwalks I for one think that Tropicana Field is not that bad of a place to watch a game. I questioned some Ray fans and they were quite happy with the Trop. No complaints. lots of stuff going on between innings with fan interviews on the board and the usual races and bloopers etc, etc.
Rays fans were really upset with Peavy with so many pickoff attempts. AJ is the problem, pitchers can hold runners all day but AJ can't throw them out.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 07:53 PM
Good deal, I'll take a split in Tampa.

We still need to start getting some wins in a row, before I'm convinced that this team has any chance.

And as usual, my favorite whipping boy, Mr. Quentin had an awful day, 0-3 with 1K, 2 LOB and a run from a hit-by-pitch dropping his average to .211

Some of you love to rip on Pierre, Teahen and Kotsay, but they're really not too far off from giving us what we expected. Carlos has given us very far from what we expected, to the point of thinking Jack Cust would have been an improvement.

Quentin is actually up to .211 though obviously it dropped today, but he just hit a 2-run jack yesterday and has put a bunch of points on his average in the last 3 weeks.

NDSox12
05-30-2010, 08:37 PM
Pretty good road trip, although this team needs to start bunching wins together very soon.

I was just looking at the results for the month of May. The Sox had a 13-14 record. Remarkably, they never had more than a two game streak, winning or losing.

SI1020
05-30-2010, 10:43 PM
Quentin is actually up to .211 though obviously it dropped today, but he just hit a 2-run jack yesterday and has put a bunch of points on his average in the last 3 weeks. In his last 6 games Quentin is 3 for 22 dropping his average from .223 to .211. Ths Sox have a bunch of players who are jaw dropingly bad so far this year and Quentin is certainly one of them. I wish it weren't so because he is one of my favorites, but wishing and hoping isn't going to change it.

jabrch
05-31-2010, 12:24 AM
I don't think the run is coming. I'd settle for a .700 + winning percentage in June though.

You'd SETTLE for .700?

cws05champ
05-31-2010, 12:25 AM
Oh, the noise, the noise, noise, noise. Drums, horns, cowbells.... good grief! Grand Slam = Muffler. It's a challenge sitting through a Rays home game but Nix's homer pretty much quieted the crowd and Santos, Thornton and Pena made sure the Rays didn't take the lead. Kudos to Juan for the great defense.

I didn't expect much when the series began so I'm pleasantly surprised that the Sox managed to get a split.
And thank you to the stupid Rays fan in the front row of the bleachers for knocking the ball into Juan's glove in the 7th. He would not have made the catch had the ball not hit the fans glove.

Nellie_Fox
05-31-2010, 01:28 AM
I think we were averaging about 22K into the All Star break.

So right in line with what the Rays are doing this year.


All I'm saying is that our announcers shouldn't talk or criticize realizing that we have our own issues when it comes to putting fans in the seats.The Rays have the best record in baseball. For them to have the same attendance as the Sox, with the start the Sox have had, is certainly something to criticize.

To qualify for a Save:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_(baseball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_%28baseball))Why would you cite Wikipedia, when you could cite the actual MLB rule?
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/rules_regulations.jsp

Foulke You
05-31-2010, 03:16 AM
Oh, the noise, the noise, noise, noise. Drums, horns, cowbells.... good grief!
Rays fans are fast rising on my list of annoying fans. When watching on TV, I have to turn my volume down because the air horns and cowbells are SO freakin' annoying. It is almost as bad as the drums/horns of Oakland fans and the drum pounding in Cleveland.

october23sp
05-31-2010, 04:25 AM
Awsome winn!! I m done with graduatnn party! Nice to ee sox winner.

harwar
05-31-2010, 08:08 AM
The whole day seems brighter when we win .. the fan in LF should get an assist for the put-out on Upton in the 7th .. Vizquel becomes the smartest man in the game whenever he takes the field .. i was wondering if he could play 2nd everyday, as Beckham is lost .. i'm thinking that without Rios and Thornton the big sell-off would be happening right now .. have to win every series this month or it's over ..

wassagstdu
05-31-2010, 08:24 AM
Great game by Pierre and by Vizquel. The matador is earning my respect. Quentin seems to have given up on getting hits and is putting everything on his HR total. He didn't see that man on third representing a big run that could have been scored on a duck snort? Seems to be doing his best imitation of Thome.

LITTLE NELL
05-31-2010, 08:58 AM
Great game by Pierre and by Vizquel. The matador is earning my respect. Quentin seems to have given up on getting hits and is putting everything on his HR total. He didn't see that man on third representing a big run that could have been scored on a duck snort? Seems to be doing his best imitation of Thome.

There are a few guys on the Sox like that, Alexei is one of them. He also does not have any idea about hitting to the right side with a man on 2nd and noboby out.
One thing I did like at yesterdays game was a lot of opposite field hitting. Beckham needs to start doing that again and get his average and OBP up.

masloan
05-31-2010, 10:01 AM
The Rays have the best record in baseball. For them to have the same attendance as the Sox, with the start the Sox have had, is certainly something to criticize.

Why would you cite Wikipedia, when you could cite the actual MLB rule?
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/rules_regulations.jsp

Why would you bother asking that question when the information provided by that Wikipedia link is the same as the information provided by the mlb.com link?

SephClone89
05-31-2010, 10:50 AM
The Rays have the best record in baseball. For them to have the same attendance as the Sox, with the start the Sox have had, is certainly something to criticize.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to 2005.

A. Cavatica
05-31-2010, 11:34 AM
You'd SETTLE for .700?

I predict he will settle for less.

TDog
05-31-2010, 12:55 PM
Why would you bother asking that question when the information provided by that Wikipedia link is the same as the information provided by the mlb.com link?

It's a question of sourcing. The information in this case may be the same, but Wikipedia is a secondary or tertiary source quoting someone who is quoting the major league rule book. The major league baseball rules Web site is the primary source. Quoting Wikipedia on the subject is like quoting a WSI poster to explain the save rule. You only know a WSI post is reliable if it links to the primary source.

The teachers and academics who post here would probably tell you that posting a Wikipedia source would earn a student a failing grade.

You are only as good as your sources and, in the setting of an argument, the reputation of your sources. If you use Wikipedia for anything, use it for background and keep it to yourself.

It's Dankerific
05-31-2010, 01:39 PM
Usually peer reviewed publications are useful. I don't see why its so impeachable.


It's a question of sourcing. The information in this case may be the same, but Wikipedia is a secondary or tertiary source quoting someone who is quoting the major league rule book. The major league baseball rules Web site is the primary source. Quoting Wikipedia on the subject is like quoting a WSI poster to explain the save rule. You only know a WSI post is reliable if it links to the primary source.

The teachers and academics who post here would probably tell you that posting a Wikipedia source would earn a student a failing grade.

You are only as good as your sources and, in the setting of an argument, the reputation of your sources. If you use Wikipedia for anything, use it for background and keep it to yourself.

Bucky F. Dent
05-31-2010, 02:40 PM
Games like yesterday continue to give me hope that we can turn this thing around. We are not that far out of it.

What will they do tomorrow to dash those hopes?

SI1020
05-31-2010, 02:52 PM
Usually peer reviewed publications are useful. I don't see why its so impeachable. Wikipedia has credibility problems with serious researchers. That being said I often refer to it, but am very careful. I have found the quality and accuracy to vary widely depending on the subject matter. I do feel that it has improved greatly from its earlier years.

http://www.ruhanirabin.com/wikipedia-scandals-revealed-by-a-program/

It's Dankerific
05-31-2010, 02:58 PM
Wikipedia has credibility problems with serious researchers. That being said I often refer to it, but am very careful. I have found the quality and accuracy to vary widely depending on the subject matter. I do feel that it has improved greatly from its earlier years.

http://www.ruhanirabin.com/wikipedia-scandals-revealed-by-a-program/

I can point to several leading publications that also have published erroneous information.

nothing is 100%, but its silly just to dismiss such a useful tool because its not printed in a book. You probably have the right mindset to be careful, but you should be careful with ANY source.

TDog
05-31-2010, 03:02 PM
Usually peer reviewed publications are useful. I don't see why its so impeachable.

It goes to the credibility of the point. If you are going trouble of posting a link to explain a baseball rule, your first instinct should be to quote the baseball rulebook, which is just as accessible online as Wikipedia, and it is more reliable.

The issue isn't whether the information was accurate. This isn't a demand for everyone who posts to meticulously document what they say as they would an academic paper. The question, which I considered legitimate, is why you should go to a source quoting a primary source when you can just as easily go to the primary source which is just as accessible. It goes more to the respect some people show for sourcing their information, for the facts that form the foundation for their opinion. The bigger question is why Wikipedia should be a reflex source.

I agree that it seems curious that someone would quote Wikipedia quoting the baseball rules instead of quoting the baseball rules. It would be like someone making a point about something someone said in a WSI interview and linking someone commenting on the point in the interview instead of linking the interview itself.

I am guessing that teachers and professors here would not accept Wikipedia as a source.

It's Dankerific
05-31-2010, 03:07 PM
probably just like I just search google when i want an answer to something instead of looking for a specific subject matter source. Especially when a place like wikipedia also links the primary source.

It like going to the main library instead of the little neighborhood one.

voodoochile
05-31-2010, 03:09 PM
It goes to the credibility of the point. If you are going trouble of posting a link to explain a baseball rule, your first instinct should be to quote the baseball rulebook, which is just as accessible online as Wikipedia, and it is more reliable.

The issue isn't whether the information was accurate. This isn't a demand for everyone who posts to meticulously document what they say as they would an academic paper. The question, which I considered legitimate, is why you should go to a source quoting a primary source when you can just as easily go to the primary source which is just as accessible. It goes more to the respect some people show for sourcing their information, for the facts that form the foundation for their opinion. The bigger question is why Wikipedia should be a reflex source.

I agree that it seems curious that someone would quote Wikipedia quoting the baseball rules instead of quoting the baseball rules. It would be like someone making a point about something someone said in a WSI interview and linking someone commenting on the point in the interview instead of linking the interview itself.

I am guessing that teachers and professors here would not accept Wikipedia as a source.

You know I'm with ID on this one. I just don't see an issue with using wikipedia for noncontroversial information. No, I wouldn't use them in a paper I was writing, but odds are wikipedia's save rule page has a link to the MLB rules page, so feel free to follow it backward if you so choose.

I find wikipedia easier to read at times because it's a summary of the information written in easy to understand English (layman's terms) so linking to them for just about anything will generally present the information in terms even people without a clear understanding of the background information will understand and again, there are usually links to other sources so if someone wants to track backwards they can.

Wikipedia is often similar to a simple research paper in that respect and if the information is accurate, who cares where it comes from.

It's one thing to state that posts on these forums should try to follow basic English structure, but if we are going to start demanding not just links, but links to acceptable websites and Wikipedia doesn't count, I think we're taking ourselves just a little too seriously...

voodoochile
05-31-2010, 03:11 PM
Oh and one other thing. If you don't like someone's link then feel free to do your own research...

SI1020
05-31-2010, 03:16 PM
I can point to several leading publications that also have published erroneous information.

nothing is 100%, but its silly just to dismiss such a useful tool because its not printed in a book. You probably have the right mindset to be careful, but you should be careful with ANY source. I'm not against what you did and am not criticizing you. The name Wikipedia is just less than trustworthy in the minds of some. Wikpedia is a part of the Brave New World we now live in. The old rules and ways cave in and the new ones are still forming.

soxinem1
05-31-2010, 03:42 PM
Awsome winn!! I m done with graduatnn party! Nice to ee sox winner.

Sounds, um, rather looks like this was one heck of a party!!:smile:

SI1020
05-31-2010, 04:15 PM
Sounds, um, rather looks like this was one heck of a party!!:smile: The punch was probably really good.