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Lip Man 1
05-27-2010, 11:20 PM
Take it for whatever it may be worth. As the season continues to slide away this could bear closer inspection:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ct-spt-0528-around-town--20100527,0,388531.column

Lip

DirtySox
05-27-2010, 11:32 PM
This story has been around for a few months now, but most of the time it's posted here people dismiss it. I'm becoming more and more inclined to believe it's true.

I wouldn't mind seeing both jettisoned.

Brian26
05-27-2010, 11:45 PM
Take it for whatever it may be worth.

Not worth the paper its printed on when two lines down we read that Cubs pitcher Randy Wells was hanging out with Jay Cutler and Greg Olsen at Castaway's.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2010, 01:53 AM
Brian:

The quote from the scout is what got me plus I tend to think that this part of the column was done by Fred Mitchell, a solid no-nonsense reporter. Kaplan does the other goofy stuff.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
05-28-2010, 01:54 AM
Not worth the paper its printed on when two lines down we read that Cubs pitcher Randy Wells was hanging out with Jay Cutler and Greg Olsen at Castaway's.

Yea, I think I'm gonna require a little more than the journalistic standards of Dave Kaplan (who in an interview with Kenny Williams that aired today asked him "What do you think of the Cubs?") and Fred Mitchell. They are really just gossip reporters.

Tragg
05-28-2010, 01:59 AM
That blurb in the article leaves one hanging....what exactly is the problem between the 2?

Konerko05
05-28-2010, 02:00 AM
I want to avoid sounding like I'm starting rumors, but I talked to someone very,very close to Ozzie/White Sox. This person almost expects Ozzie to get fired this season, and didn't sound as if his relationship with the White Sox was very strong right now.

I was actually very surprised this person was revealing this information.

I get the impression the entire organization is a mess right now.

samurai_sox
05-28-2010, 02:44 AM
I want to avoid sounding like I'm starting rumors, but I talked to someone very,very close to Ozzie/White Sox. This person almost expects Ozzie to get fired this season, and didn't sound as if his relationship with the White Sox was very strong right now.

I was actually very surprised this person was revealing this information.

I get the impression the entire organization is a mess right now.

Good. Something needs to give with this team.

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-28-2010, 07:48 AM
Yea, I think I'm gonna require a little more than the journalistic standards of Dave Kaplan (who in an interview with Kenny Williams that aired today asked him "What do you think of the Cubs?") and Fred Mitchell. They are really just gossip reporters.

If the KW-OG thing is true, then so be it. When relationships end, sometimes it's bad. Sox fans will always be thankful for 2005, but we want to compete NOW.

Regarding the rest of that article - wouldn't it just be easier for Kaplan to dress like Ronnie Woo Woo - do I really need to hear how Jared Allen "loves the Friendly Confines"?

SOXSINCE'70
05-28-2010, 08:04 AM
Brian:
Kaplan does the other goofy stuff.
Lip

No Mark, Kaplan is just a Goof.

russ99
05-28-2010, 10:28 AM
I hope that this can be salvaged, along with our season.

They'll rue the day they fire Ozzie.

And frankly, Kenny's been a bit of a pill lately, so it's not all on Ozzie.

pythons007
05-28-2010, 10:54 AM
Yea, I think I'm gonna require a little more than the journalistic standards of Dave Kaplan (who in an interview with Kenny Williams that aired today asked him "What do you think of the Cubs?") and Fred Mitchell. They are really just gossip reporters.

Are you serious? Kaplan is complete trash!! How do you conduct an interview with KW and ask him about the Cubs? There are so many topics that can be brought up about the White Sox it isn't even funny, and he finds a way to squeeze in a question about the ****heads up north?

This is most of the reason of why I despise the cubs, I loath them, the utter mention of the Cubs makes me puke in my mouth a little. Media propoganda is an utter disgrace on how they shove them down our throats!!

They wonder why Sox fans are so bitter toward the Cubs!?!?! It amazes me.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2010, 11:52 AM
Are you serious? Kaplan is complete trash!! How do you conduct an interview with KW and ask him about the Cubs? There are so many topics that can be brought up about the White Sox it isn't even funny, and he finds a way to squeeze in a question about the ****heads up north?

This is most of the reason of why I despise the cubs, I loath them, the utter mention of the Cubs makes me puke in my mouth a little. Media propoganda is an utter disgrace on how they shove them down our throats!!

They wonder why Sox fans are so bitter toward the Cubs!?!?! It amazes me.
Good lord.

SephClone89
05-28-2010, 12:00 PM
Are you serious? Kaplan is complete trash!! How do you conduct an interview with KW and ask him about the Cubs? There are so many topics that can be brought up about the White Sox it isn't even funny, and he finds a way to squeeze in a question about the ****heads up north?

This is most of the reason of why I despise the cubs, I loath them, the utter mention of the Cubs makes me puke in my mouth a little. Media propoganda is an utter disgrace on how they shove them down our throats!!

They wonder why Sox fans are so bitter toward the Cubs!?!?! It amazes me.

Chill out. Life's too short.

SI1020
05-28-2010, 12:20 PM
They'll rue the day they fire Ozzie.
Of course. They're only 23 games below .500 since 7-6-06. Why try to improve on that? It's just a little slump.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2010, 12:28 PM
I hope that this can be salvaged, along with our season.

They'll rue the day they fire Ozzie.

And frankly, Kenny's been a bit of a pill lately, so it's not all on Ozzie.
Haha.

wassagstdu
05-28-2010, 12:53 PM
Of course. They're only 23 games below .500 since 7-6-06. Why try to improve on that? It's just a little slump.

If Ozzie goes I can see the Sox hiring a cardboard cutout ala Oakland, and then hang on and see how bad things could be. Or even worse, Tony LaRussa.

The Sox organization has deep and serious problems, and none of them will be solved by Ozzie leaving.

Rocky Soprano
05-28-2010, 12:54 PM
If Ozzie goes I can see the Sox hiring a cardboard cutout ala Oakland, and then hang on and see how bad things could be. Or even worse, Tony LaRussa.

The Sox organization has deep and serious problems, and none of them will be solved by Ozzie leaving.

And standing pat and keeping Ozzie does what?

dickallen15
05-28-2010, 01:10 PM
Of course. They're only 23 games below .500 since 7-6-06. Why try to improve on that? It's just a little slump.

"When you join the White Sox, you don't join a team, you join a mindset."

It amazes me the White Sox suddenly think they are the epitome of a winning organization.

russ99
05-28-2010, 02:31 PM
And standing pat and keeping Ozzie does what?

Keeping Ozzie has nothing to do with standing pat. Coaches could and should be fired, players traded or released, etc. with Ozzie still as manager.

veeter
05-28-2010, 02:50 PM
Ozzie went from a serious-about-winning manager, to a caricature of himself. He's let his boys get out of control, and created a totally unprofessional environment. He needs to go. I wouldn't mind them removing Ozzie and replacing him with Buddy Bell.

dickallen15
05-28-2010, 03:14 PM
Ozzie went from a serious-about-winning manager, to a caricature of himself. He's let his boys get out of control, and created a totally unprofessional environment. He needs to go. I wouldn't mind them removing Ozzie and replacing him with Buddy Bell.

What's the fascination people have with Buddy Bell? He was a disaster as a manager. The minor league prospects are striking out at an incredible rate. He may be well respected around the game, I just wish there were actually results that prompted that respect.

russ99
05-28-2010, 03:21 PM
Ozzie went from a serious-about-winning manager, to a caricature of himself. He's let his boys get out of control, and created a totally unprofessional environment. He needs to go. I wouldn't mind them removing Ozzie and replacing him with Buddy Bell.

Since when was Ozzie ever about a maintaining a professional environment? Gene Lamont, sure, but not Ozzie. His best trait was keeping guys loose. If this group of morose stat-focused wound-up, pressing guys can't get loose under Ozzie, than they can't do so under anyone.

And I agree things can be too loose, which is why they need to fire Walker and/or Cora and bring in a "bad cop" as a replacement.

The indictment with this team is on the players not the manager. Obviously the manager is often the fall guy, but Ozzie's succeeded with good players (2005,6,8) and failed with poor players (2007,10 so far)

I'd hate to see the Sox ditch Ozzie solely as a scapegoat and watch him go on to have a long and successful career with a team like Atlanta.

soltrain21
05-28-2010, 03:23 PM
Since when was Ozzie ever about a maintaining a professional environment? Gene Lamont, sure, but not Ozzie. His best trait was keeping guys loose. If this group of morose stat-focused pressing guys can't get loose under Ozzie, than they can't do so under anyone.

And I agree things can be too loose, which is why they need to fire Walker and/or Cora and bring in the "bad cop".

The indictment with this team is on the players not the manager. Obviously the manager is often the fall guy, but Ozzie's succeeded with good players (2005,6,8) and failed with poor players (2007,10 so far)

I'd hate to see the Sox ditch Ozzie solely as a scapegoat and watch him go on to have a long and successful career with a team like Atlanta.

Is that supposed to prove something?

SI1020
05-28-2010, 03:23 PM
I'd hate to see the Sox ditch Ozzie solely as a scapegoat and watch him go on to have a long and successful career with a team like Atlanta. I'll take my chances. Even if he does that it's becoming apparent his best days are far off in the rear view mirror with the Sox.

russ99
05-28-2010, 03:24 PM
Is that supposed to prove something?

Yes. that he's a good manager, and you can only play the hand you're dealt.

PalehosePlanet
05-28-2010, 03:30 PM
If the KW-OG thing is true, then so be it. When relationships end, sometimes it's bad. Sox fans will always be thankful for 2005, but we want to compete NOW.

Regarding the rest of that article - wouldn't it just be easier for Kaplan to dress like Ronnie Woo Woo - s the do I really need to hear how Jared Allen "loves Friendly Confines"?

Jared Allen also says that his mullet is not just a hair-do but a lifestyle. He's probably on Ebay right now searching high and low for some zubaz pants while listening to Glass Tiger.

Not exactly the person I'd want endorsing my product.

Tragg
05-28-2010, 03:41 PM
Keeping Ozzie has nothing to do with standing pat. Coaches could and should be fired, players traded or released, etc. with Ozzie still as manager.

I think the problem is lack of baseball talent.

I always thought it was Ozzie picking the players; maybe it's Williams.
Ozzie's strategy isn't the best perhaps, but it's not the worst most of the time.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2010, 03:49 PM
Yes. that he's a good manager, and you can only play the hand you're dealt.
So I guess Ozzie's "love this kind of team" rah-rah bull**** in the offseason was an act?

thomas35forever
05-28-2010, 03:57 PM
If either man is gone at the end of the season, it'll be Kenny. Ozzie will be kept around just because, plus he's already got a contract. Let him finish the ride.

CLR01
05-28-2010, 04:13 PM
I'd hate to see the Sox ditch Ozzie solely as a scapegoat and watch him go on to have a long and successful career with a team like Atlanta.

I'm wiling o take that gamble.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2010, 04:21 PM
Ozzie succeeding Bobby Cox would be hilarious.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-28-2010, 04:30 PM
I want to avoid sounding like I'm starting rumors, but I talked to someone very,very close to Ozzie/White Sox. This person almost expects Ozzie to get fired this season, and didn't sound as if his relationship with the White Sox was very strong right now.

I was actually very surprised this person was revealing this information.

I get the impression the entire organization is a mess right now.

:scratch: Interesting. Especially since old man JR has basically said that Ozzie can stay as long as he wants. And KW has stated on the record that Ozzie will outlast him.

I'm not trying discredit you, but why should we believe you? How do you know this person?

Personally, I could see why the organization is such a mess. This team was much publicized and expected to play much better by this front office. They are having a TV show that has had inside looks at the Sox front office debuting next month. That show is obviously going to comment on how things are currently going. There were obviously people in the front office and in the clubhouse that were on both sides of the TV show idea. This team sucks. Ozzie is frustrated. KW is frustrated. The players, the fans, the ownership. They all are frustrated. Something isn't working here.

veeter
05-28-2010, 04:54 PM
What's the fascination people have with Buddy Bell? He was a disaster as a manager. The minor league prospects are striking out at an incredible rate. He may be well respected around the game, I just wish there were actually results that prompted that respect.I just said I WOULDN'T MIND Bell replacing Ozzie. I wouldn't mind a lot of people. I'm not fascinated with Buddy Bell.

russ99
05-28-2010, 05:56 PM
So I guess Ozzie's "love this kind of team" rah-rah bull**** in the offseason was an act?

Again, if this team played at their career averages, it would be a lot better and likely over .500, even with a poor start.

russ99
05-28-2010, 05:59 PM
Ozzie succeeding Bobby Cox would be hilarious.

Are you kidding? Ozzie was a coach under Cox and learned from him - he has NL-style strategies... He'd be great in Atlanta (or Florida) with a good pitching coach.

Some people have problems with the guy that has little to do with his managing.

Konerko05
05-28-2010, 06:00 PM
:scratch: Interesting. Especially since old man JR has basically said that Ozzie can stay as long as he wants. And KW has stated on the record that Ozzie will outlast him.

I'm not trying discredit you, but why should we believe you? How do you know this person?

Personally, I could see why the organization is such a mess. This team was much publicized and expected to play much better by this front office. They are having a TV show that has had inside looks at the Sox front office debuting next month. That show is obviously going to comment on how things are currently going. There were obviously people in the front office and in the clubhouse that were on both sides of the TV show idea. This team sucks. Ozzie is frustrated. KW is frustrated. The players, the fans, the ownership. They all are frustrated. Something isn't working here.

You don't have to believe me. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I just thought I would share the information given to me. You can do whatever you want with it.

I've been on this site for a long time, and I've never been one to make up rumors.

This person wasn't a friend of a friend or anything. Like I said, I spoke to this person directly and this person is about as close to Guillen/White Sox as you can get. Maybe he was talking out of his ass, but this whole JR/Guillen loyalty thing doesn't really seem to be much of a reality.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2010, 06:17 PM
Are you kidding? Ozzie was a coach under Cox and learned from him - he has NL-style strategies... He'd be great in Atlanta (or Florida) with a good pitching coach.

Some people have problems with the guy that has little to do with his managing.
Well, I take issue with him calling someone a ***, but I also take issue with his philosophies on baseball. I can separate the two, and state with comfort that he's not a great manager, not a good manager, and not suited for the situation he's in now.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2010, 06:18 PM
Again, if this team played at their career averages, it would be a lot better and likely over .500, even with a poor start.
So, what exactly is the manager responsible for? If not underperforming personnel -- then what?

thomas35forever
05-28-2010, 06:38 PM
I'm wiling o take that gamble.
See LaRussa, Tony.

A. Cavatica
05-28-2010, 07:48 PM
The indictment with this team is on the players not the manager. Obviously the manager is often the fall guy, but Ozzie's succeeded with good players (2005,6,8) and failed with poor players (2007,10 so far)

I'd hate to see the Sox ditch Ozzie solely as a scapegoat and watch him go on to have a long and successful career with a team like Atlanta.

In 2005, Ozzie took a team that held a lead in its first 53 games (or some ridiculous number) and built a big cushion, and was conspicuously helpless when the team nosedived and very nearly blew it. Somehow they pulled out of the dive right before the plane crashed. To Ozzie's credit, he managed well at the start of the season and in the playoffs, but there was reason to worry about his motivational skills.

In 2006, Ozzie took a team that had more talent than the 2005 team, and a great first half, and really did blow it. That team should've been a lot better than 90 wins and Ozzie's misuse of players cost them many games. Mackowiak in center alone probably cost them five wins -- go read the game threads if you've forgotten this.

The next few years demonstrated -- to me, anyway -- that Ozzie was slowly losing his team.

In 2010, Ozzie has a talented team whose problems appear to be mental. Ozzie is at the root of the problem, not a scapegoat.

He needs to go tomorrow, or the day after -- it's time to change hearts and minds.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-28-2010, 09:31 PM
You don't have to believe me. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I just thought I would share the information given to me. You can do whatever you want with it.

I've been on this site for a long time, and I've never been one to make up rumors.

This person wasn't a friend of a friend or anything. Like I said, I spoke to this person directly and this person is about as close to Guillen/White Sox as you can get. Maybe he was talking out of his ass, but this whole JR/Guillen loyalty thing doesn't really seem to be much of a reality.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't accusing you of starting a rumor. :D:

russ99
05-28-2010, 10:35 PM
In 2005, Ozzie took a team that held a lead in its first 53 games (or some ridiculous number) and built a big cushion, and was conspicuously helpless when the team nosedived and very nearly blew it. Somehow they pulled out of the dive right before the plane crashed. To Ozzie's credit, he managed well at the start of the season and in the playoffs, but there was reason to worry about his motivational skills.

In 2006, Ozzie took a team that had more talent than the 2005 team, and a great first half, and really did blow it. That team should've been a lot better than 90 wins and Ozzie's misuse of players cost them many games. Mackowiak in center alone probably cost them five wins -- go read the game threads if you've forgotten this.

The next few years demonstrated -- to me, anyway -- that Ozzie was slowly losing his team.

In 2010, Ozzie has a talented team whose problems appear to be mental. Ozzie is at the root of the problem, not a scapegoat.

He needs to go tomorrow, or the day after -- it's time to change hearts and minds.

This is a perfect example how ridculous this mentality to ditch Ozzie is.

In 2005, we faded after the break due to injuries to Crede and Podsednik, not because of anything Ozzie did. In fact, Ozzie's aggressive managing was a big reason for the team's success.

2006, we won 90 games. And we lost more due to the fact that Ozzie gave Anderson a chance (that he failed at) than anything Mackowiak did. And if you want to use Mackowiak as a scapegoat, fine, but realize that the pitching fell off in August and Sepember, and that's why we didn't make the playoffs.

2009 demonstrated to me that Ozzie is a good manager and can take an obviously flawed team to the playoffs. Had he lost his team, we wouldn't have come close to the playoffs.

Last year, he had a team full of kids and still brought them up to contention by the end of July before the bottom fell out.

And this year, I blame the players and hitting coach for the offfensive collapse, and Jerry for going cheap when we could have replaced Dye with an equal player for a lower price. Maybe Ozzie could do more, but I don't see it, and he's not the one who needs to go. Add one good hitter from any club around the league, and this season would be different.

We need better players, especially ones who can hit the ball, not a new manager.

gosox41
05-28-2010, 10:39 PM
In 2005, Ozzie took a team that held a lead in its first 53 games (or some ridiculous number) and built a big cushion, and was conspicuously helpless when the team nosedived and very nearly blew it. Somehow they pulled out of the dive right before the plane crashed. To Ozzie's credit, he managed well at the start of the season and in the playoffs, but there was reason to worry about his motivational skills.

In 2006, Ozzie took a team that had more talent than the 2005 team, and a great first half, and really did blow it. That team should've been a lot better than 90 wins and Ozzie's misuse of players cost them many games. Mackowiak in center alone probably cost them five wins -- go read the game threads if you've forgotten this.

The next few years demonstrated -- to me, anyway -- that Ozzie was slowly losing his team.

In 2010, Ozzie has a talented team whose problems appear to be mental. Ozzie is at the root of the problem, not a scapegoat.

He needs to go tomorrow, or the day after -- it's time to change hearts and minds.

When do the players start to get some blame?

In 2006, fatigue caught up to the pitching staff and they fell aprt in the second half. Do you think there was a conspiracy among the pitching staff to throw the season? Or do you think Ozzie failed to moticate them enough?


Bob

PhillipsBubba
05-28-2010, 10:47 PM
Ozzie went from a serious-about-winning manager, to a caricature of himself. He's let his boys get out of control, and created a totally unprofessional environment. He needs to go. I wouldn't mind them removing Ozzie and replacing him with Buddy Bell.


I agree...we watched the same thing happen to Mike Ditka. DaCoach came to Chicago full of piss and vinegar, hellbent on winning a Super Bowl. Then he became a national pitchman for any product or company that would meet his price.

Ozzie would be doing the same thing if he didn't struggle with the Kings English.

Either way, the players don't respond to him anymore so it's time for Joey Cora to get a shot or perhaps Dave Martinez from the Devil Rays.

A. Cavatica
05-29-2010, 12:11 AM
When do the players start to get some blame?

In 2006, fatigue caught up to the pitching staff and they fell aprt in the second half. Do you think there was a conspiracy among the pitching staff to throw the season? Or do you think Ozzie failed to moticate them enough?


Bob

I think Ozzie had a guy in Brandon McCarthy who could've stepped in to the rotation for any of the inconsistent starters, except that Ozzie didn't keep him stretched out and ready to go. Instead he burned out McCarthy and the rest of the bullpen by using five pitchers a night.

voodoochile
05-29-2010, 12:13 AM
I think Ozzie had a guy in Brandon McCarthy who could've stepped in to the rotation for any of the inconsistent starters, except that Ozzie didn't keep him stretched out and ready to go. Instead he burned out McCarthy and the rest of the bullpen by using five pitchers a night.

Ah yes, so simple, Buehrle and Contreras are in the middle of posting a 6.5+ ERA for the month of August, toss McCarthy out there and stop using the bullpen...

soxinem1
05-29-2010, 12:20 AM
I think Ozzie had a guy in Brandon McCarthy who could've stepped in to the rotation for any of the inconsistent starters, except that Ozzie didn't keep him stretched out and ready to go. Instead he burned out McCarthy and the rest of the bullpen by using five pitchers a night.

You don't really believe that, do you?:?:

A. Cavatica
05-29-2010, 12:31 AM
You don't really believe that, do you?:?:

Do I believe Ozzie mismanaged his pitching staff in 2006? Absolutely!

His decisions cost the team at least five wins that year.

soxinem1
05-29-2010, 12:50 AM
Do I believe Ozzie mismanaged his pitching staff in 2006? Absolutely!

His decisions cost the team at least five wins that year.

And the team on the field probably cost them another five.

There were a lot of reasons why that team, and each team afterwards has failed. From the GM down, it was a true team effort.

While Ozzie has a lot to do with it, be it his mishandling of players or totally being predictable in strategy, KW gave him the team, and the players need to produce.

In the off-season of 2005, KW over-estimated his bullpen in thinking that three guys who were lights out (with no prior history of doing so) would repeat that effort. He added millions to the payroll, but about 50 cents to the bullpen.

He should have known with the increased workload of the starters in the post-season (remember the starters pitching all except 2/3 of an inning in the ALCS??), Hermanson being hurt, and Jenks with under 40 IP under his belt he should have built a better bullpen.

I'm no big Ozzie fan, but from Reinsdorf down, the entire organization can all take a good piece of the blame for letting this happen.

kufram
05-29-2010, 12:24 PM
Just wondering. Is there any history of players, past or present, saying anything against playing for Ozzie or blaming Ozzie for their poor performances?.. I'm just wondering if there is any actual evidence that Ozzie has lost the clubhouse or the confidence of anybody actually in baseball? I'm not an Ozzie apologist. If I thought losing Ozzie would make us win playoff games I'd pack his bags myself. I wouldn't miss his swearing for a start... and his ingame decisions have cost some games... probably about as many as his decisions have won....i.e very few. At least with Ozzie what you see is what you get.

It is so easy to say "fire the manager". It is every fan's first idea.

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 01:54 PM
Just wondering. Is there any history of players, past or present, saying anything against playing for Ozzie or blaming Ozzie for their poor performances?.. I'm just wondering if there is any actual evidence that Ozzie has lost the clubhouse or the confidence of anybody actually in baseball? I'm not an Ozzie apologist. If I thought losing Ozzie would make us win playoff games I'd pack his bags myself. I wouldn't miss his swearing for a start... and his ingame decisions have cost some games... probably about as many as his decisions have won....i.e very few. At least with Ozzie what you see is what you get.

It is so easy to say "fire the manager". It is every fan's first idea.
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/06/piniella-voted-least-popular-manager-in-player-survey-.html

An SI poll of 380 players found Guillen the least popular manager in the AL.

dickallen15
05-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Just wondering. Is there any history of players, past or present, saying anything against playing for Ozzie or blaming Ozzie for their poor performances?.. I'm just wondering if there is any actual evidence that Ozzie has lost the clubhouse or the confidence of anybody actually in baseball? I'm not an Ozzie apologist. If I thought losing Ozzie would make us win playoff games I'd pack his bags myself. I wouldn't miss his swearing for a start... and his ingame decisions have cost some games... probably about as many as his decisions have won....i.e very few. At least with Ozzie what you see is what you get.

It is so easy to say "fire the manager". It is every fan's first idea.

Javy Vazquez, Nick Swisher, Orlando Cabrera, Magglio Ordonez..................

kufram
05-29-2010, 02:02 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/06/piniella-voted-least-popular-manager-in-player-survey-.html

An SI poll of 380 players found Guillen the least popular manager in the AL.


Ok, I guess we know he's not popular with players who DON'T play for him. I'd like to see something on the record.

kufram
05-29-2010, 02:03 PM
Javy Vazquez, Nick Swisher, Orlando Cabrera, Magglio Ordonez..................

Do you have some quotes?

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 02:10 PM
Ok, I guess we know he's not popular with players who DON'T play for him. I'd like to see something on the record.
Perception is important in players waiving their NTC, coming to play here, etc.

Frater Perdurabo
05-29-2010, 02:25 PM
The 2006 team should have won 105 games and won the division by ten games. There were some minor flaws, but a better manager would have managed around those flaws.

For instance, the team had more than enough offense for most of the season that it could have "carried" a weak hitter in CF just for his defense in order to help the pitching staff, which was filled with many "pitch to contact" pitchers and was coached by a "pitch to contact" pitching coach! Instead, Ozzie put a poor defender in CF. Mackowiak did his best, but his CF butchery extended innings and put more pressure on the starting pitchers, who already were overextended from the 2005 run.

I had forgotten about his bullpen mismanagement, too. But looking back, starters like Buehrle and Contreras struggled because of fatigue (exacerbated in part by poor CF defense when Mackowiak was in the game). Nevertheless, Ozzie chose not to use McCarthy in a long relief role and only had him start two games. Knowing that the starters had pitched so much in 2005, Ozzie (and Cooper) should have skipped each of them 2-3 times in the first half to keep them fresher for the second half.

I guess KW deserves some blame for not having addressed the bullpen before the 2006 season, but he did acquire Thornton, who was great in 2006, and midseason he got MacDougal, who was outstanding.

Nevertheless, I draw a direct line of causation from Ozzie's CF and pitching staff mismanagement, to the pitching staff's ultimate failure, to the failure of the 2006 team.

Tragg
05-29-2010, 02:43 PM
It is so easy to say "fire the manager". It is every fan's first idea.

This team has moved a lot of players to appease the sensibilities of Ozzie Guillen.
That would include virtually giving players away.

WhiteSox5187
05-29-2010, 03:03 PM
So I guess Ozzie's "love this kind of team" rah-rah bull**** in the offseason was an act?

The team that Ozzie thought he was going to have and even admitted earlier was a style similar to what the Rays have. I'd say that is working out well for them.

Frater Perdurabo
05-29-2010, 03:13 PM
The team that Ozzie thought he was going to have and even admitted earlier was a style similar to what the Rays have. I'd say that is working out well for them.

The Rays have so much more hitting talent than the Sox. It's not even close.

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 03:26 PM
The team that Ozzie thought he was going to have and even admitted earlier was a style similar to what the Rays have. I'd say that is working out well for them.
If Ozzie thought he was going to have the Rays, well, he's got more problems than I thought.

WhiteSox5187
05-29-2010, 06:29 PM
If Ozzie thought he was going to have the Rays, well, he's got more problems than I thought.

Well then that's on Kenny then, isn't it? For assembling this team.

This whole "Oh Ozzie wanted to assemble a national league bull**** team..." no, Ozzie wanted a team like the Rays and the Rays are proving that that "National league Ozzie ball ****" can actually win a LOT of games with the right talent.

Finally, I might be a fool, but I'm not quite willing to give up on this team. They have been playing remarkably better.

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 06:38 PM
Well then that's on Kenny then, isn't it? For assembling this team.

This whole "Oh Ozzie wanted to assemble a national league bull**** team..." no, Ozzie wanted a team like the Rays and the Rays are proving that that "National league Ozzie ball ****" can actually win a LOT of games with the right talent.

Finally, I might be a fool, but I'm not quite willing to give up on this team. They have been playing remarkably better.
It's absolutely on Kenny, too. He's got an awful farm system and not much to celebrate on the 25-man roster.

Johnny Mostil
05-29-2010, 06:44 PM
Finally, I might be a fool, but I'm not quite willing to give up on this team. They have been playing remarkably better.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 08:38 PM
Well then that's on Kenny then, isn't it? For assembling this team.

This whole "Oh Ozzie wanted to assemble a national league bull**** team..." no, Ozzie wanted a team like the Rays and the Rays are proving that that "National league Ozzie ball ****" can actually win a LOT of games with the right talent.

Finally, I might be a fool, but I'm not quite willing to give up on this team. They have been playing remarkably better.
Also, yes, teams with elite pitching, elite defense, and guys like Evan Longoria and Carl Crawford will win a lot. The White Sox have, maybe, one of those things.

A. Cavatica
05-29-2010, 08:47 PM
Finally, I might be a fool, but I'm not quite willing to give up on this team. They have been playing remarkably better.

Watching tonight's game?

TomBradley72
05-29-2010, 11:08 PM
I think they've both run their course. Ozzie is in his 7th season which is a long tenure...KW has had a long run as well....the minors are in a shambles...3/4 seasons < .500...time for a change.

Tragg
05-29-2010, 11:38 PM
The team that Ozzie thought he was going to have and even admitted earlier was a style similar to what the Rays have.

With Guillen's impatience with young players, with Guillen's indifference to defense, with his love of mediocre talent, he thinks he's going to have a team like the Rays?

Ridiculous
If anything, he's the anti-Rays

russ99
05-30-2010, 01:22 PM
With Guillen's impatience with young players, with Guillen's indifference to defense, with his love of mediocre talent, he thinks he's going to have a team like the Rays?

Ridiculous
If anything, he's the anti-Rays

Please enlighten me of Ozzie's love of mediocre talent. The rest of your points are arguable (he's been beyond patient with Beckham) but that notion is ludicrous.

Bottom line - these players aren't producing like the Rays, heck, they're not even producing like the White Sox. Ozzie can't step on the field or get in the batter's box.

A. Cavatica
05-30-2010, 04:44 PM
Please enlighten me of Ozzie's love of mediocre talent.

Two words: DeWayne Wise.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 04:51 PM
Two words: DeWayne Wise.

You mean the guy they basically cut the minute they acquired a guy who could actually play CF?

Maybe it's not Ozzie's love of mediocrity, but the fact the other guys who might have replace Wise were also mediocre...

A. Cavatica
05-30-2010, 04:56 PM
You mean the guy they basically cut the minute they acquired a guy who could actually play CF?

Maybe it's not Ozzie's love of mediocrity, but the fact the other guys who might have replace Wise were also mediocre...

I can't believe you're making me waste more words on this...

Andy Gonzalez.
Omar Vizquel.
Mark Kotsay.
Darin Erstad.
Timo Perez.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 05:01 PM
I can't believe you're making me waste more words on this...

Andy Gonzalez.
Omar Vizquel.
Mark Kotsay.
Darin Erstad.
Timo Perez.

And again, name the better players they took reps from...

Daver
05-30-2010, 05:05 PM
I can't believe you're making me waste more words on this...

Andy Gonzalez.
Omar Vizquel.
Mark Kotsay.
Darin Erstad.
Timo Perez.


Angel Gonzalez was a very good defensive SS in the minors, and didn't take any at bats away from someone that was a clearly superior player.

SI1020
05-30-2010, 05:12 PM
I can't believe you're making me waste more words on this...

Andy Gonzalez.
Omar Vizquel.
Mark Kotsay.
Darin Erstad.
Timo Perez. Jerry Owens.

russ99
05-30-2010, 05:39 PM
Most of the players named seem to be sour grapes over Anderson not cutting it when given many, many chances. Which is not a problem with Ozzie "favoring mediocre talent", IMO. It's choosing other options when a touted prospect turns out to be a mediocre talent. Anderson forced Ozzie's hand, not the other way around.

Had Brian produced the way the scouts saw when they drafted him, or even the way he had hit early in his minor league career none of those guys would have played to the extent they had.

Tragg
05-30-2010, 06:11 PM
Most of the players named seem to be sour grapes over Anderson not cutting it when given many, many chances. Which is not a problem with Ozzie "favoring mediocre talent", IMO. It's choosing other options when a touted prospect turns out to be a mediocre talent. Anderson forced Ozzie's hand, not the other way around.

Had Brian produced the way the scouts saw when they drafted him, or even the way he had hit early in his minor league career none of those guys would have played to the extent they had.

Anderson forced no ones hand. He could field but not hit. Wise could do neither. Someone put a list above of the mediocre talent loved by Guillen. He also completely blew it with Sweeney, and has basically kicked 2 young pitchers off the team for acts of immaturity, one of whom is now the Twins closer.
Good leaders aren't paid to kick young players off the team.

Which bit of talent evaluation was Guillen's best.... Guillen's choice of Owens as leadoff hitter in 2008 or Wise in 2009?

Sam Spade
05-30-2010, 06:14 PM
Anderson forced no ones hand. He could field but not hit. Wise could do neither. Someone put a list above of the mediocre talent loved by Guillen. He also completely blew it with Sweeney, and has basically kicked 2 young pitchers off the team for acts of immaturity, one of whom is now the Twins closer.
Good leaders aren't paid to kick young players off the team.

Which bit of talent evaluation was Guillen's best.... Guillen's choice of Owens as leadoff hitter in 2008 or Wise in 2009?
I'm not convinced sweeney will be an everyday major league player going forward (he is right now on a terrible offensive team), so I don't see how he blew it.

Edit: Maybe his power numbers will improve someday and he will be above average.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 06:17 PM
Anderson forced no ones hand. He could field but not hit. Wise could do neither. Someone put a list above of the mediocre talent loved by Guillen. He also completely blew it with Sweeney, and has basically kicked 2 young pitchers off the team for acts of immaturity, one of whom is now the Twins closer.
Good leaders aren't paid to kick young players off the team.

Which bit of talent evaluation was Guillen's best.... Guillen's choice of Owens as leadoff hitter in 2008 or Wise in 2009?

Rauch blew out his arm and took 5 years or something to become anything like an effective reliever even.

Who was the other young pitcher?

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2010, 06:26 PM
With Guillen's impatience with young players, with Guillen's indifference to defense, with his love of mediocre talent, he thinks he's going to have a team like the Rays?

Ridiculous
If anything, he's the anti-Rays

Guillen doesn't assemble these teams, Kenny does. I will give you that Ozzie is impatience with young players, but mind you Kenny has said "I don't have the patience to rebuild." Kenny also said after the 2002 and 2003 seasons "I thought our offense would be able to cover our defensive liabilities." Ozzie has always said he wants a team built around pitching, defense and speed. This season was the closest Kenny has come to giving him that (outside of 2005 obviously). How did that turn out?

A. Cavatica
05-30-2010, 06:29 PM
And again, name the better players they took reps from...

Vizquel was a DH the other day.

So, I guess the list of better players is just about any other major league hitter.

shingo10
05-30-2010, 07:34 PM
Rauch blew out his arm and took 5 years or something to become anything like an effective reliever even.

Who was the other young pitcher?


I think he's talking about Brandon McCarthy but I could be wrong.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 07:57 PM
Vizquel was a DH the other day.

So, I guess the list of better players is just about any other major league hitter.

Weren't both Quentin and Jones out that day? Now yeah, I'd prefer Nix to be the DH in that circumstance, but the Sox had a two man bench with Nix and Castro available, IIRC. Since Omar can't play the OF at all, it makes more sense to keep Nix as the reserve.

But far be it from me to suggest that there might have been other considerations that you are ignoring...

A. Cavatica
05-30-2010, 08:05 PM
Weren't both Quentin and Jones out that day? Now yeah, I'd prefer Nix to be the DH in that circumstance, but the Sox had a two man bench with Nix and Castro available, IIRC. Since Omar can't play the OF at all, it makes more sense to keep Nix as the reserve.

But far be it from me to suggest that there might have been other considerations that you are ignoring...

We have pitchers who hit better than Vizquel.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 08:11 PM
we have pitchers who hit better than vizquel.

lol...

A. Cavatica
05-30-2010, 08:41 PM
lol...

LOL? Vizquel has a .472 OPS this season. Freddy Garcia has a career .471, Jake Peavy .454.

I'm not suggesting Garcia or Peavy should be DHing, I'm suggesting that when you employ Omar as a DH instead of (say) bringing up Tyler Flowers for a week, there are important considerations like your DH's ability to hit the baseball that you are ignoring.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 09:17 PM
LOL? Vizquel has a .472 OPS this season. Freddy Garcia has a career .471, Jake Peavy .454.

I'm not suggesting Garcia or Peavy should be DHing, I'm suggesting that when you employ Omar as a DH instead of (say) bringing up Tyler Flowers for a week, there are important considerations like your DH's ability to hit the baseball that you are ignoring.

No one went to the DL to allow them to bring up Flowers and Flowers May numbers are not good. Not to mention you would be pushing him to face major league caliber pitching before me might be ready so a lot could go wrong and the kid might have posted an .000 OPS that week so at best you've got a guess. Viciedo maybe, but again, why screw with their development curve when you are talking about one day of Omar as DH.

Oh and just to be picky after today's game Omar has a .533 OPS...

canOcorn
05-30-2010, 10:00 PM
LOL? Vizquel has a .472 OPS this season. Freddy Garcia has a career .471, Jake Peavy .454.

I'm not suggesting Garcia or Peavy should be DHing, I'm suggesting that when you employ Omar as a DH instead of (say) bringing up Tyler Flowers for a week, there are important considerations like your DH's ability to hit the baseball that you are ignoring.

And there's the crutch. Ozzie needs to go because he has zero clue about this...he only concerned if it's a LH or RH....be damned what they actually do.

Nellie_Fox
05-31-2010, 01:33 AM
He ... basically kicked 2 young pitchers off the team for acts of immaturity, one of whom is now the Twins closer. Only because they have no other option right now. Rauch has not been stellar as a closer by any means. He's nothing special.

dickallen15
05-31-2010, 03:52 AM
LOL? Vizquel has a .472 OPS this season. Freddy Garcia has a career .471, Jake Peavy .454.

I'm not suggesting Garcia or Peavy should be DHing, I'm suggesting that when you employ Omar as a DH instead of (say) bringing up Tyler Flowers for a week, there are important considerations like your DH's ability to hit the baseball that you are ignoring.

If the consideration is your DH's ability to hit the baseball, you are ignoring something. Flowers has an OPS in May of .496 in AAA and is fanning half the time he comes to the plate.

A. Cavatica
05-31-2010, 11:33 AM
If the consideration is your DH's ability to hit the baseball, you are ignoring something. Flowers has an OPS in May of .496 in AAA and is fanning half the time he comes to the plate.

He's still a better DH than Vizquel!

It's Dankerific
05-31-2010, 02:00 PM
Only because they have no other option right now. Rauch has not been stellar as a closer by any means. He's nothing special.

Really? a 2.70 ERA with a 12/14 saves and a 1-1 record.

Throw out a 2 game stretch this month and his ERA is much lower.

Better than what we use. 6.35 ERA with 7/8 saves and a 1-1 record. If Jenks was putting up Rauch's numbers, I dont think you'd have the same perspective.

PhillipsBubba
05-31-2010, 02:02 PM
Angel Gonzalez was a very good defensive SS in the minors, and didn't take any at bats away from someone that was a clearly superior player.

OMG...how could any legitimate minor league system not have something better to offer than Andy-****ing-Gonzalez:o:

SI1020
05-31-2010, 02:45 PM
Only because they have no other option right now. Rauch has not been stellar as a closer by any means. He's nothing special. I would have to disagree. After being traded from the White Sox Rauch rescued his career from the scrap heap. He was a decent to good reliever for the Expos/Nationals and has been pretty reliable for the Twins so far this year. He's not Joe Nathan quality, but overall I'm impressed with Rauch for hanging in there and making a decent career for himself. He's another Sox prospect they failed to develop properly.

Tragg
06-01-2010, 10:11 AM
Only because they have no other option right now. Rauch has not been stellar as a closer by any means. He's nothing special.

The thing is, since Guillen expelled Rauch, our bullpen has featured macdougal, myers and bukvich. Describe him as you will, but he's miles ahead of those 3.

There remains a practice in this organization, whether it's guillen or Williams, to favor the expensive mediocre ( or in many cases below mediocre) veteran over the young player.

russ99
06-01-2010, 10:31 AM
The thing is, since Guillen expelled Rauch, our bullpen has featured macdougal, myers and bukvich. Describe him as you will, but he's miles ahead of those 3.

There remains a practice in this organization, whether it's guillen or Williams, to favor the expensive mediocre ( or in many cases below mediocre) veteran over the young player.

And each one of those guys was the last reliever on the staff, other than MacDougal who had a few decent years, then lost his stuff and ended up the last reliever on the staff.

This is my issue with you guys saying the organization prefers mediocrity:

Every major league ballclub has guys on the roster that wouldn't be there if there was unlimited budgets and there were more talent league wide.

There's guys on the Yankees and Red Sox who would be described as mediocre. Nobody has a team of capable players 1-25. To assume otherwise is wishful thinking.

TomBradley72
06-01-2010, 02:15 PM
After 10 years of leading the organization, KW gives us an expensive yet mediocre major league roster with a handful of prospects at the AAA level (Viciedo, Danks, Flowers, Morel, Hudson) and just about nothing else in the entire farm system. Combined with 3/4 years < .500, I thank him for his service and for 2005, but it's time for a change.

Same goes for Ozzie.

It's time for an overhaul.

asindc
06-01-2010, 02:19 PM
The thing is, since Guillen expelled Rauch, our bullpen has featured macdougal, myers and bukvich. Describe him as you will, but he's miles ahead of those 3.

There remains a practice in this organization, whether it's guillen or Williams, to favor the expensive mediocre ( or in many cases below mediocre) veteran over the young player.

Whether Guillen "expelled" Rauch or not (I think not), we are better off for having traded him.

Tragg
06-01-2010, 11:10 PM
And each one of those guys was the last reliever on the staff, other than MacDougal who had a few decent years, then lost his stuff and ended up the last reliever on the staff.

This is my issue with you guys saying the organization prefers mediocrity:

Every major league ballclub has guys on the roster that wouldn't be there if there was unlimited budgets and there were more talent league wide.

NONE of the 3 were the last relievers on the staff. My point has nothing to do with not having an unlimited budget - the opposite actually. Williams/Guillen waste scarce budget funds on bad players above minimum salary when they could get the same return for minimum salary from a young player. You spend money on Kotsay and Teahan, and you can't afford a legit DH.
The idea that Ozzie wants a team like the Rays, which started this off, is laughable notion. The Rays value most pretty close to exactly what Ozzie values least.

russ99
06-03-2010, 09:48 AM
NONE of the 3 were the last relievers on the staff. My point has nothing to do with not having an unlimited budget - the opposite actually. Williams/Guillen waste scarce budget funds on bad players above minimum salary when they could get the same return for minimum salary from a young player. You spend money on Kotsay and Teahan, and you can't afford a legit DH.
The idea that Ozzie wants a team like the Rays, which started this off, is laughable notion. The Rays value most pretty close to exactly what Ozzie values least.

That's the problem. The minor league players we bring up for mimimum salary can't cut it with the Sox. There's a track record here. When's the last time a minor leaguer that was brought up from the Sox system and had above average production for 5 years? Mark Buerhle?

Also, Kenny would rather sign someone like Bukvich and take a shot than bring up a potential trading chip and kill all his trade value. This is why they gave Embree a shot this year in AAA.

Sorry, but I disagree with your assessment. The Rays value what Ozzie values: speed, defense and pitching - but the GM/Ownership are always trying to cut corners both with the major league team and in drafting/player development which is why we always get guys that are flawed.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2010, 09:56 AM
The Rays' baseball philosophy is to have good players. That's why they're good.

asindc
06-03-2010, 10:09 AM
The Rays' baseball philosophy is to have good players. That's why they're good.

That is every organization's philosophy, Randy Winn, Bill Hall, Pat Burell, Brandon Wood, Alexi Casilla, and Adam Everett aside. It has also been Tampa's philosophy since its inception, though only the recent results reflect that.

Rocky Soprano
06-03-2010, 10:20 AM
The Rays value what Ozzie values: speed, defense and pitching - but the GM/Ownership are always trying to cut corners both with the major league team and in drafting/player development which is why we always get guys that are flawed.

If Ozzie values defense then why have we seen Jones in CF and Rios in one of the corners?

Ozzie CLAIMS to value defense but his actions tell a different story.

Hitmen77
06-03-2010, 02:08 PM
If Ozzie values defense then why have we seen Jones in CF and Rios in one of the corners?

Ozzie CLAIMS to value defense but his actions tell a different story.

Hey, just like all the Sox management apologists around here love to say: never believe a word that Kenny and Ozzie say.

WhiteSox5187
06-03-2010, 03:09 PM
If Ozzie values defense then why have we seen Jones in CF and Rios in one of the corners?

Ozzie CLAIMS to value defense but his actions tell a different story.

Because at this point in their careers Rios is a better CFer than Jones. Jones is not an every day player anymore.

Rocky Soprano
06-03-2010, 03:22 PM
Because at this point in their careers Rios is a better CFer than Jones. Jones is not an every day player anymore.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Its exactly for that fact, Rios is a better CFer than Jones yet Ozzie has placed Jones in CF and puts Rios in either Right or Left. WHY?!

WhiteSox5187
06-03-2010, 03:25 PM
I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Its exactly for that fact, Rios is a better CFer than Jones yet Ozzie has placed Jones in CF and puts Rios in either Right or Left. WHY?!

I think I am missing something here, Rios has started 47 games in CF and one in LF, Jones has started in 5 in CF.

MisterB
06-03-2010, 04:10 PM
I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Its exactly for that fact, Rios is a better CFer than Jones yet Ozzie has placed Jones in CF and puts Rios in either Right or Left. WHY?!

It was one ****ing game. Get over it.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2010, 05:07 PM
It was one ****ing game. Get over it.
And it was blatantly stupid.

WhiteSox5187
06-03-2010, 06:50 PM
And it was blatantly stupid.

So Rios should play all 162 games in CF?

WhiteSox5187
06-03-2010, 07:15 PM
And it was blatantly stupid.

The only game that Rios has started and did not start in CF was the third game of the season. The only time Jones has started two games in a row in CF was on the 1st and 2nd of May and the only reason he got the start on the 2nd was probably because he hit two HRs in that game. By my count that is a total of 4 games where Rios did not start in CF out of 52 games which means he's played CF 92% of the time. I'd say that that resting Rios a day every now and then and having a former Gold Glove Award winner replace him is ok, especially when the back up in on pace to only start 13 games in CF.

voodoochile
06-03-2010, 07:32 PM
The only game that Rios has started and did not start in CF was the third game of the season. The only time Jones has started two games in a row in CF was on the 1st and 2nd of May and the only reason he got the start on the 2nd was probably because he hit two HRs in that game. By my count that is a total of 4 games where Rios did not start in CF out of 52 games which means he's played CF 92% of the time. I'd say that that resting Rios a day every now and then and having a former Gold Glove Award winner replace him is ok, especially when the back up in on pace to only start 13 games in CF.

I believe the two games to start May were when Alex was with his wife for the birth of their child. I know he missed at least a couple games for that, but don't remember the exact dates...

WhiteSox5187
06-03-2010, 07:33 PM
I believe the two games to start May were when Alex was with his wife for the birth of their child. I know he missed at least a couple games for that, but don't remember the exact dates...

Ah, then it was probably the first and second of May as those were the only two dates that Jones started in CF on back to back dates. God I need more things to do with my time.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2010, 07:45 PM
So Rios should play all 162 games in CF?
If he is in the game, he should be in CF. There are no shades of grey.
The only game that Rios has started and did not start in CF was the third game of the season. The only time Jones has started two games in a row in CF was on the 1st and 2nd of May and the only reason he got the start on the 2nd was probably because he hit two HRs in that game. By my count that is a total of 4 games where Rios did not start in CF out of 52 games which means he's played CF 92% of the time. I'd say that that resting Rios a day every now and then and having a former Gold Glove Award winner replace him is ok, especially when the back up in on pace to only start 13 games in CF.
I'm fine resting him. Do not put Jones over him. Ever.

russ99
06-03-2010, 07:46 PM
So Rios should play all 162 games in CF?

That's the thing. Some here assume that the same 9 guys can play all 162 games in the field and all out starters can go 300 innings.

Oh, and of course, those who don't are "mediocre" or "suck".

I hope we don't have suffer through 5-6 years of bad teams to lower everyone's expectations down to an average level.

russ99
06-03-2010, 07:46 PM
If he is in the game, he should be in CF. There are no shades of grey.

I'm fine resting him. Do not put Jones over him. Ever.

Would you prefer Pierre? Someone's gotta play CF.

Craig Grebeck
06-03-2010, 07:47 PM
Would you prefer Pierre? Someone's gotta play CF.
Seriously? What the **** are you reading? I'm arguing that Rios, if he is in the game, should play CF. I'm saying do not put Jones in CF and Rios in LF.

That's the thing. Some here assume that the same 9 guys can play all 162 games in the field and all out starters can go 300 innings.

Oh, and of course, those who don't are "mediocre" or "suck".

I hope we don't have suffer through 5-6 years of bad teams to lower everyone's expectations down to an average level. The last ten (sans 2005) have done a pretty good job of lowering expectations.

Rocky Soprano
06-03-2010, 11:34 PM
I'm arguing that Rios, if he is in the game, should play CF. I'm saying do not put Jones in CF and Rios in LF.


Exactly what I was saying!
There is NO excuse to have Jones in CF over Rios.

WhiteSox5187
06-03-2010, 11:39 PM
exactly what i was saying!
There is no excuse to have jones in cf over rios.

it was one game! In april!

Nellie_Fox
06-04-2010, 01:10 AM
The Rays' baseball philosophy is to have good players.Other teams have never considered this philosophy. This statement ranks right up with one from a few years ago that said the key to pitching is to just allow one less run than the other team's pitcher.

kaufsox
06-04-2010, 01:40 PM
Also, yes, teams with elite pitching, elite defense, and guys like Evan Longoria and Carl Crawford will win a lot. The White Sox have, maybe, one of those things.

which one?

Craig Grebeck
06-04-2010, 06:02 PM
which one?
Maybe elite pitching -- when they're at their true talent level. Unfortunately, that calls for an actual defense.