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View Full Version : Where would the Sox be right now if...


NLaloosh
05-27-2010, 05:44 PM
1. The Jake Peavy trade isn't made and Clayton Richard is still in the rotation and they still had Poreda, Russell and Carter.

2. The Juan Pierre trade isn't made and the Sox still had John Ely and Jon Link.

3. The White Sox signed Vlad Guerrero to be the DH.

4. The White Sox had not extended Mark Teahen's contract for 3 more years so unnecessarily.

????????

fox23
05-27-2010, 05:46 PM
Probably still playing baseball at US Cellular Field.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-27-2010, 05:59 PM
If KW signed Lebron James.

Come on....we aren't really going to do this, are we?

kittle42
05-27-2010, 06:01 PM
This is a ridiculous thread for so many reasons.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-27-2010, 06:04 PM
This is a ridiculous thread for so many reasons.

That was my point...which is why I took it one step past the OP.

DumpJerry
05-27-2010, 06:07 PM
1. The Jake Peavy trade isn't made and Clayton Richard is still in the rotation and they still had Poreda, Russell and Carter.

2. The Juan Pierre trade isn't made and the Sox still had John Ely and Jon Link.

3. The White Sox signed Vlad Guerrero to be the DH.

4. The White Sox had not extended Mark Teahen's contract for 3 more years so unnecessarily.

????????
Same place they're in today.





Or not.

LoveYourSuit
05-27-2010, 06:56 PM
They would be tipping their hat to the opposing pitcher.

Noneck
05-27-2010, 07:29 PM
The only thing for sure they would be is richer.

Rohan
05-27-2010, 09:00 PM
:deadhorse::deadhorse:
Beating SEVERAL dead horses.

TDog
05-27-2010, 10:03 PM
1. The Jake Peavy trade isn't made and Clayton Richard is still in the rotation and they still had Poreda, Russell and Carter.

2. The Juan Pierre trade isn't made and the Sox still had John Ely and Jon Link.

3. The White Sox signed Vlad Guerrero to be the DH.

4. The White Sox had not extended Mark Teahen's contract for 3 more years so unnecessarily.

????????

People would be whining that the Sox should have traded for Peavy and lamented that they went cheap by trying to go with disappointing pithcing prospects.

The lack of Teahen extension discussion would mean a lack of some superfluous bitching.

TheOldRoman
05-27-2010, 10:09 PM
Richard would be worse than mediocre in the A.L. and people would be screaming that ONCE AGAIN Kenny waited too long to trade a prospect.

Slappy
05-27-2010, 10:12 PM
It really hurts seeing all these guys we gave away do well. What can you do? In hindsight, KW shouldn't have made most of the moves he did in the past season or so at least.

I don't know what else to say. Also, I'm sorta drunk...

But yeah, I mean, how can you disagree with results? KW seems more intent on making a big splash with the big name signings than he does in putting serious thought into developing a serious contending team.

I think out scouting and player development staff is sorely lacking.

Boondock Saint
05-28-2010, 12:12 AM
People would be whining that the Sox should have traded for Peavy and lamented that they went cheap by trying to go with disappointing pithcing prospects.

The lack of Teahen extension discussion would mean a lack of some superfluous bitching.

This post should be framed somewhere.

Craig Grebeck
05-28-2010, 12:18 AM
Is it really superfluous to wonder why Teahen was extended?

guillen4life13
05-28-2010, 12:53 AM
Is it really superfluous to wonder why Teahen was extended?

This is the only move I wondered about when it happened. I thought all other deals were worth it or at least happened based on rational thought.

How about this: where would the Sox be if they DIDN'T claim Rios off of waivers? Trade McCarthy for Danks? Convert Santos to a pitcher and put him on the MLB roster?

If you're going to fault the moves that, in hindsight, may not have been the most wise, you'd better mention the moves that did work out. Luck has not been kind to the Sox in many situations. The Teahen move was questionable but I did see the potential. I'm not yet ready to say I was wrong, but if things continue as such, then it won't be up for discussion anymore.

I'll tell you what: if Buehrle, Peavy, and Quentin played like they should, the Sox would be within two games of the division lead, whether ahead or behind. This rotation was built for success, and now it has turned into the liability.

TDog
05-28-2010, 03:29 AM
Is it really superfluous to wonder why Teahen was extended?

It is superfluous to the discussion of where the White Sox would be right now. Teahen's contract has nothing to do with where the White Sox are in the standings.

jabrch
05-28-2010, 08:23 AM
I'll tell you what: if Buehrle, Peavy, and Quentin played like they should, the Sox would be within two games of the division lead, whether ahead or behind. This rotation was built for success, and now it has turned into the liability.

Agreed - 100%

pythons007
05-28-2010, 10:10 AM
1. The Jake Peavy trade isn't made and Clayton Richard is still in the rotation and they still had Poreda, Russell and Carter.

2. The Juan Pierre trade isn't made and the Sox still had John Ely and Jon Link.

3. The White Sox signed Vlad Guerrero to be the DH.

4. The White Sox had not extended Mark Teahen's contract for 3 more years so unnecessarily.

????????

This is not needed. You're only saything because of how the players are playing currently.

It really hurts seeing all these guys we gave away do well. What can you do? In hindsight, KW shouldn't have made most of the moves he did in the past season or so at least.

I don't know what else to say. Also, I'm sorta drunk...

But yeah, I mean, how can you disagree with results? KW seems more intent on making a big splash with the big name signings than he does in putting serious thought into developing a serious contending team.

I think out scouting and player development staff is sorely lacking.

All the players that are playing well are in the NL and mostly pitchers. I really liked Richard when he was here, but I would rather have a proven veteran that is still relatively young and under contract.

Richard is pitching in one of the best pitchers parks in the NL and his numbers would almost double if he were here with us this year.

Same goes for Ely, he's pitching in another pitchers park in a crap division also the NL WEST like Richard.

Carter still hasn't cracked the MLB roster yet, isn't he with Oakland? They have a crap offense and he's still not there.

This thread is garbage.

Tragg
05-28-2010, 10:14 AM
1. The Jake Peavy trade isn't made and Clayton Richard is still in the rotation and they still had Poreda, Russell and Carter.

2. The Juan Pierre trade isn't made and the Sox still had John Ely and Jon Link.

3. The White Sox signed Vlad Guerrero to be the DH.

4. The White Sox had not extended Mark Teahen's contract for 3 more years so unnecessarily.

????????
A couple of games better and better set for the future.
But you probably ought to put the Rios claim on the list....judge Williams' entire portfolio, over the last year or so.

Still, more bad than good and a ton of payroll.

russ99
05-28-2010, 11:18 AM
Is it really superfluous to wonder why Teahen was extended?

What was the alternative? Let him go to arbitration and then have to deal with a newly-acquired disgruntled player?

And would you trade two assets for a guy you think will produce then let him get angry in arb and walk away as a free agent the next offseason?

Regardless if you like or dislike the Teahen trade, re-upping him was the right thing to do, and also not as awful as some of you think, as the Sox got cash in the deal to defer some of his salary.

Teahen's salary the next 3 years is: 3.75, 4.75, 5.5 and they got back 1.5M in the trade. And yes, Kenny's gambling a bit that he is worth that much in his 3rd year.

Besides, lots of poorly-performing ballplayers are being paid more, like a certain right fielder, but he gets a free pass since he's a slugger...

NLaloosh
05-28-2010, 12:17 PM
Okay, I appreciate the responses. My feelings are these:

I had no problem, at the time, with KW claiming Rios for two reasons. A hitter with a long term contract is not as big a risk as a pitcher with one. Also, the Sox didn't have to give up any talent at all to acquire Rios. They got a great player for a fair price - not a steal. That's ok.

My problem with the Peavy deal, was and is, that his contract alone wasn't worth the risk - besides giving up the talent. And, I stated this at the time that I though that if the Sox gave up nothing to get him that he wouldn't be worth that contract pitching in the AL and that he was prone to injury. It was just a bad deal. I breathed a sigh of relief after Peavy squelched it the first time.

The Pierre deal, once again, a bad deal. He's paid too much and I don't believe that there was competition for his services requiring that KW give up two good pitching prospets to boot.

When you take on a substantial contract to acquire a player that's one thing but when he give up good young talent in addition you better be damn sure that this player is going to help your team immensely.

Vlad Guerrero. The White Sox have not had an elite hitter on this team since Frank Thomas. They had their chance to acquire one to fill a need for a small investment. They didn't. I guess they didn't want to copy Minnesota and Detroit with those difference making hitters. Sad.

Teahen extension another bad move that will hamper them in the future.

My point is that KW deserves to be fired for these reasons. Yes, I know the good things that he's done in the past and he is a good GM but it's time for a new GM. He's made too many costly mistakes recently and shown seriously bad judgement.

pmck003
05-29-2010, 11:59 AM
The only trade(s) I have a problem with in retrospect is Swisher. Gio and Sweeny would be nice right now. So would Swisher himself.

PalehosePlanet
05-29-2010, 02:11 PM
The only trade(s) I have a problem with in retrospect is Swisher. Gio and Sweeny would be nice right now. So would Swisher himself.

Me too. The low return for Swisher is what really bothers me.

I wasn't against the Sox taking a shot on Teahen, but the extension was definitely a mistake.

I don't like Pierre, but I think Ely is a flash in the pan. Reminds of how everyone whined and moaned when Josh Fogg got off to a good start w/Pitt after we traded him for the forgettable Todd Ritchie.

Also, I knew Vlad would have a great year somewhere. Nearly everyone else here though was convinced he was done.

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 02:17 PM
Giving up on Swisher the way Kenny did was indefensible. Couldn't believe the return back then, still can't believe it now.

AzureJazzMan
05-29-2010, 05:49 PM
Yeah...I can't believe that they would want to get rid of a whiner with lackluster numbers, that doesn't make any sense :scratch:

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 06:09 PM
Yeah...I can't believe that they would want to get rid of a whiner with lackluster numbers, that doesn't make any sense :scratch:
If the organization really thought that 2008 represented Nick Swisher's mean performance, and not his floor, then they are in worse shape than anyone feared. You don't buy high and sell low, that's idiotic.

Bobby Thigpen
05-29-2010, 06:14 PM
Giving up on Swisher the way Kenny did was indefensible. Couldn't believe the return back then, still can't believe it now.
:deadhorse:
I've never used this.

This seemed like a good time.

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 06:20 PM
:deadhorse:
I've never used this.

This seemed like a good time.
Forgive me for mentioning a move that was wrong in 2009, and is still criminally wrong in 2010.

Bobby Thigpen
05-29-2010, 06:26 PM
Criminally? Really?

Exaggerate much?

My point is you to have to bring it up every five seconds. He's gone. Some people have gotten over that.

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 06:29 PM
Criminally? Really?

Exaggerate much?

My point is you to have to bring it up every five seconds. He's gone. Some people have gotten over that.
Really?

I see no reason to move on from KW's worst move. He gave up too much to get him, and gave him up for nothing. The only defense of the move...there is no defense of it, unless you're into knee-jerk organizational support.

JermaineDye05
05-29-2010, 06:29 PM
1) Same place. Clayton Richard was a #5 starter in the AL IMO. Jake is underachieving.
2) We'd be without a lead-off hitter, and we'd probably see Gordon or Alex Rios leading off right now.
3) A considerably better offense. This move I wish they had made.
4) They'd still be in the same place. They traded for him. I don't think the extension affects this team more than the actual trade did.

Bobby Thigpen
05-29-2010, 06:31 PM
I frankly don't care what the hell they did to get him, or what they got for him.

He came, he sucked, he was a jerk while doing it, he left. I don't see what the point of lamenting it is.

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 06:37 PM
I frankly don't care what the hell they did to get him, or what they got for him.

He came, he sucked, he was a jerk while doing it, he left. I don't see what the point of lamenting it is.
1. I guess I don't understand the point of following baseball if you don't care how players are acquired or who they are traded for. I hope you apply the same adage to positive KW deals, like Danks for McCarthy or Cabrera for Garland.

2. Ah, yes, the he was a jerk while struggling stuff. I can see why the clubhouse turned on a guy for...carrying around a bobblehead. Oh, I'm guessing it's the fact he (allegedly) turned down Ken Griffey Jr. when he offered to help him with his swing. You don't trade a guy for a down year, or for personality issues. You call him in and you tell him to suck it up.

Operating a baseball team like that will result in a hell of a lot more years like 2007 and 2009.

Bobby Thigpen
05-30-2010, 01:15 AM
I think you'll be hard pressed to see me comment on too many deals ever. Especially ones that happened three and two years ago. I follow baseball to watch the team I like play baseball. Not complain about who I think they should have or still have on their team.

He was a jerk before he struggled. He was a jerk in Oakland. He was a jerk here. He is a jerk in New York. What's your point?

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 09:11 AM
I think you'll be hard pressed to see me comment on too many deals ever. Especially ones that happened three and two years ago. I follow baseball to watch the team I like play baseball. Not complain about who I think they should have or still have on their team.

He was a jerk before he struggled. He was a jerk in Oakland. He was a jerk here. He is a jerk in New York. What's your point?
I like baseball too. I like good players on the team I like.

Bobby Thigpen
05-30-2010, 11:55 AM
I like baseball too. I like good players on the team I like.
Then why do you pine so much for Swisher?

:wink:

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 12:18 PM
Then why do you pine so much for Swisher?

:wink:
Because he's a good ballplayer.

Bobby Thigpen
05-30-2010, 12:39 PM
1. I guess I don't understand the point of following baseball if you don't care how players are acquired or who they are traded for. I hope you apply the same adage to positive KW deals, like Danks for McCarthy or Cabrera for Garland.

2. Ah, yes, the he was a jerk while struggling stuff. I can see why the clubhouse turned on a guy for...carrying around a bobblehead. Oh, I'm guessing it's the fact he (allegedly) turned down Ken Griffey Jr. when he offered to help him with his swing. You don't trade a guy for a down year, or for personality issues. You call him in and you tell him to suck it up.

Operating a baseball team like that will result in a hell of a lot more years like 2007 and 2009.
The Patriots would disagree with you.

cards press box
05-30-2010, 12:41 PM
Because he's a good ballplayer.

Swisher is o.k. He is not a Hall of Famer or, for that matter, an All-Star. Having said that, the Sox gave up too much for him in the A's deal and didn't get nearly enough back in the Yankees deal. So, that's two bad trades the Sox made.

For me, the jury is still out on the Peavy trade. It's a long season and Peavy could pitch well the next four months.

Pierre for Ely? Of late, Pierre's BA is starting to climb to its historic norm and he has been stealing bases and creating scoring opportunities for the club. As for Ely, he looks good but: (i) he's pitching in the NL and (ii) the whole league hasn't seen him yet. Teams will adjust to Ely (as they have adjusted to San Diego's Wade LeBlanc) and he will have to adjust back. We don't yet know how that will work out. In any event, Pierre has played fine and gives the Sox some security at the leadoff spot until Jared Mitchell heals and eventually works his way up to Chicago.

Vlad Guerrero has been o.k. but does anyone really think that the team's Achilles heel so far has been Andruw Jones?

As for Mark Teahan, the Sox future third baseman is Brent Morel who, as we speak, is hitting .320 at Birmingham. Teahan is there until Morel is ready and then will become a utility player or will be dealt to a team needing a lefty hitting third baseman.

And, as other posters have said, it is not fair to focus on the bad and/or questionable deals without remembering the excellent deals, like getting Alex Rios off the waiver wire. Some posters here were fit to be tied after KW did that deal but the move has worked really well.

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 01:27 PM
Swisher is o.k. He is not a Hall of Famer or, for that matter, an All-Star. Having said that, the Sox gave up too much for him in the A's deal and didn't get nearly enough back in the Yankees deal. So, that's two bad trades the Sox made.

For me, the jury is still out on the Peavy trade. It's a long season and Peavy could pitch well the next four months.

Pierre for Ely? Of late, Pierre's BA is starting to climb to its historic norm and he has been stealing bases and creating scoring opportunities for the club. As for Ely, he looks good but: (i) he's pitching in the NL and (ii) the whole league hasn't seen him yet. Teams will adjust to Ely (as they have adjusted to San Diego's Wade LeBlanc) and he will have to adjust back. We don't yet know how that will work out. In any event, Pierre has played fine and gives the Sox some security at the leadoff spot until Jared Mitchell heals and eventually works his way up to Chicago.

Vlad Guerrero has been o.k. but does anyone really think that the team's Achilles heel so far has been Andruw Jones?

As for Mark Teahan, the Sox future third baseman is Brent Morel who, as we speak, is hitting .320 at Birmingham. Teahan is there until Morel is ready and then will become a utility player or will be dealt to a team needing a lefty hitting third baseman.

And, as other posters have said, it is not fair to focus on the bad and/or questionable deals without remembering the excellent deals, like getting Alex Rios off the waiver wire. Some posters here were fit to be tied after KW did that deal but the move has worked really well.
No one said he was a HOF player, or an all-star, what he is is a useful asset that the White Sox overvalued, then undervalued. That's impatience, incompetence, and evidence of some bad baseball minds at the top.

TomBradley72
05-30-2010, 06:54 PM
Forgive me for mentioning a move that was wrong in 2009, and is still criminally wrong in 2010.

Swisher was a complete tool with the White Sox in the 2nd half of 2008, both as a team member as well as statistically (<.200 batting avg.). He ended up with the Yankees for a big pile of crap (Betemit, Nunez, Marquez) because that was his market value at the time. No one else wanted that long term contract. After 2008, we had TCQ and Dye on the corners, PK at 1st, Thome at DH...and didn't want Swisher as our everyday CF...where would he play?

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 06:59 PM
Swisher was a complete tool with the White Sox in the 2nd half of 2008, both as a team member as well as statistically (<.200 batting avg.). He ended up with the Yankees for a big pile of crap (Betemit, Nunez, Marquez) because that was his market value at the time. No one else wanted that long term contract. After 2008, we had TCQ and Dye on the corners, PK at 1st, Thome at DH...and didn't want Swisher as our everyday CF...where would he play?
Easy to answer. He replaces Dye, who he has outperformed since 2008.

mzh
05-30-2010, 07:57 PM
Easy to answer. He replaces Dye, who he has outperformed since 2008.
So basically you wanted Kenny to replace Dye, a career .280/300 hitter coming off a season in which he hit .292 with 34 homers, with a career .240 hitter coming off a year when he hit .219 and struck out 130 times? Yep, pretty sound logic there. Your posts are all in hindsight. If I had suggested this after 2008 you would have lambasted me as a ****ing idiot who has no idea what he's talking about.

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 07:59 PM
So basically you wanted Kenny to replace Dye, a career .280/300 hitter coming off a season in which he hit .292 with 34 homers, with a career .240 coming off a year when he hit .219 and struck out 130 times? Yep, pretty sound logic there.
Yeah, it's definitely sounder logic to discount the following: age, batted ball rates, defensive ability, contract, market value, etc. Your tunnel vision sure showed me!

mzh
05-30-2010, 07:59 PM
Yeah, it's definitely sounder logic to discount the following: age, batted ball rates, defensive ability, contract, market value, etc. Your tunnel vision sure showed me!
See my edit. If I had suggested what you are saying after the 08 season, what would you have said?

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 08:08 PM
See my edit. If I had suggested what you are saying after the 08 season, what would you have said?
So you're saying I didn't say exactly the same thing in 2008? News to me. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2100380&highlight=swisher#post2100380)

mzh
05-30-2010, 08:11 PM
So you're saying I didn't say exactly the same thing in 2008? News to me. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2100380&highlight=swisher#post2100380)
I'm not going to get into this with you. You were right, end of story, blah blah blah.

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 08:14 PM
I'm not going to get into this with you. You were right, end of story, blah blah blah.
I mean, I produced evidence that refuted your point. I understand.

But yes, back to the topic at hand, I think we'd be in a better spot had we kept Swisher.

mzh
05-30-2010, 08:19 PM
I mean, I produced evidence that refuted your point. I understand.

But yes, back to the topic at hand, I think we'd be in a better spot had we kept Swisher.
In hindsight, I don't think anyone can disagree to that. But I also don't think you can blame KW for dealing him, although I do think he could have gotten a higher return. But again, OTOH, who else was going to take him off our hands?

cards press box
05-30-2010, 11:14 PM
No one said he was a HOF player, or an all-star, what he is is a useful asset that the White Sox overvalued, then undervalued. That's impatience, incompetence, and evidence of some bad baseball minds at the top.

I agree that: (a) Swisher was a useful asset, (b) the Sox gave up too much talent in the A's trade for him and (c) didn't get enough in return for him from the Yankees. All that means is that the two Swisher deals were bad. It does not prove "impatience, incompetence, and evidence of some bad baseball minds at the top." KW's body of work has, on balance, been quite good.

The two Swisher deals are insufficient to prove "impatience, incompetence and bad baseball minds" on the part of Sox management. After all, most of KW's deals have benefited the White Sox. Calling KW and the Sox front office incompetent for making a mistake on one player misses the mark, particularly where KW has pulled off so many outstanding deals (e.g., Jenks off the waiver wire in 2005, Borchard for Thornton, Miles for Uribe, Olivo for Garcia, McCarthy for Danks, Garcia for Floyd, Rios off the waiver wire in 2009, signing A. Ramirez from Cuba, signing Iguchi from Japan, Carter for Quentin, Loaiza for Contreras).

KMcMahon817
05-31-2010, 02:47 PM
1. The Jake Peavy trade isn't made and Clayton Richard is still in the rotation and they still had Poreda, Russell and Carter.

2. The Juan Pierre trade isn't made and the Sox still had John Ely and Jon Link.

3. The White Sox signed Vlad Guerrero to be the DH.

4. The White Sox had not extended Mark Teahen's contract for 3 more years so unnecessarily.

????????

1. Clayton would have marginally better numbers than Jake does right now. Probably 3-3 with a 4.5 era. Poreda, Russell and Carter are in the minors. (Little impact)

2. The Sox would be searching for a lead off hitter and the leadoff hitter for the Sox as a whole would be hitting far below .250. Jon Link and John Ely are in AAA. (Negative impact)

3. Vlady means no Jones. So three home runs more and about 20 more rbi's. The Sox would also have to play Quentin in right EVERYDAY! (Still a positive impact)

4. The White Sox don't extend Teahen, well, most people on here would be happier. (Zero impact)

All in all, it would have very little difference. But I would sure love to have Vlady. You have to remember that he was far from a sure bet. He looked done last year.

TheVulture
06-01-2010, 04:44 PM
KW is way too eager to give up 2nd tier pitching prospects and that's why we're spending 20 million a year on the bullpen. I have no problem with the Peavy trade, but it's all the little trades that have decimated the organizational pitching depth.