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View Full Version : *Official Never in Doubt 5/26 Postgame Thread*


BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2010, 02:51 PM
Got to love having an easy one!

Sockinchisox
05-26-2010, 02:51 PM
No more Jenks please.

At all.

WhiteSox1989
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
That was close.

Fantastic win, given the circumstances.

Jenks has got to go.

jabrch
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
Lol

soltrain21
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
I'm glad they won.

Go away, Bobby.

october23sp
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
That was the last time we'll see Jenks in a tight situation I believe.

GoGoCrede
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
Epic meltdown on the mound, in the gamethread, etc.

Whew. Just, whew.

This was by far the most exciting and interesting game of the season.

KnightSox
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
Excellent job by the bullpen after Joe West's bull****.

Thanks for another heart attack Bobby.

bigdommer
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
That could have been a blessing in disguise. Sox get the win, and Jenks gets officially relieved of his closer duties. With Thornton and Santos on this club, Bobby should be pitching garbage time until we can trick someone into taking his contract.

JermaineDye05
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
Indians fans just jumped off the ledge. Whatever Indians fans were left.

October26
05-26-2010, 02:52 PM
I AM JUST RECOVERING FROM NEAR CARDIAC ARREST!

Bobby Jenks, please don't do that again. I'm not getting any younger.

Sox win! Sox win!

Gavin
05-26-2010, 02:53 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/lgraphs/20100526_WhiteSox_Indians_0_81_lbig_.png

Zakath
05-26-2010, 02:53 PM
Epic meltdown on the mound, in the gamethread, etc.

Whew. Just, whew.

This was by far the most exciting and interesting game of the season.

Just like root canal is an exciting and interesting medical procedure...

guillensdisciple
05-26-2010, 02:53 PM
Um, Bobby- you need to find another job.

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2010, 02:53 PM
There will enough Jenks **** in here for three threads, so I am going to focus on today's MVP. Tony ****ing Pena! He had a man's game today.

Crestani
05-26-2010, 02:53 PM
No more Jenks please.

At all.


Bobby just needed to make it a close game so he could concentrate!:angry:

LoveYourSuit
05-26-2010, 02:53 PM
From a huge feeling of momentum when the bullpen picked this team up, to Jenks pissing it all away. Pissing away the momentum, that is.



It's a win, but something needs to be done about Jenks and Beckham.

JB98
05-26-2010, 02:54 PM
That was the last time we'll see Jenks in a tight situation I believe.

Your belief is wrong, IMO.

He's not going to be removed from his job because he "almost lost."

voodoochile
05-26-2010, 02:54 PM
I think we need to start using JoeWest as an insult as in, "Bobby nearly JoeWested the bed today, but he managed not to JoeWest his teammates in the end."

Shouldn't have been that tough, but I'll take any kind of win. Just glad they held on if they had blown that one, it would have been really rough on the team to fight back from such adversity.

How about that Tony Pena fellow?

:soxwin:

:)

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 02:54 PM
Jenks absolutely should not be used in high-leverage situations until he proves he can get batters out.

ChiSoxGal85
05-26-2010, 02:54 PM
I had "EPIC.FAIL" typed and my finger over the Enter key. Glad I was wrong. Great job by Pena and Thornton. Jenks gave me more gray hair. Joe West should be fined or something.

vinny
05-26-2010, 02:54 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/lgraphs/20100526_WhiteSox_Indians_0_81_lbig_.png

OK, I'll bite. Where'd you get that? 'Cause I like it.

GoGoCrede
05-26-2010, 02:54 PM
Just like root canal is an exciting and interesting medical procedure...

With all the balks, errors, the almost-DP in the 9th? I found it exciting as hell. Now, if we had lost, I'd have likened it to a root canal.

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
I don't think I need to go do my cardio after that ninth inning.

Bobby, I love you. You were so fun to watch for like four years (2005-2008), but your career with the White Sox is effectively over. I hope we trade you to Philly and I hope that somehow you can turn it around and become a lights out closer, but you're just not the guy for us. You'll get a huge round of applause when you come back for the '05 reunion.

guillensdisciple
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
From a huge feeling of momentum when the bullpen picked this team up, to Jenks pissing it all away. Pissing away the momentum, that is.



It's a win, but something needs to be done about Jenks and Beckham.


Should have traded for Adrian Gonzalez when we had the chance. Beckham is not worth anything anymore, neither is Jenks.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
Your belief is wrong, IMO.

He's not going to be removed from his job because he "almost lost."
"Almost lost" makes "pitching like ****" sound tolerable.

Rocky Soprano
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
You have to just love Ozzie and his continued desire to put Jenks in non save situations.

Don't tell me Ozzie was still not calling the shots from the tunnel.

Get rid of them both.

GoGoCrede
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
I mean seriously, where was Santos?

LoveYourSuit
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/lgraphs/20100526_WhiteSox_Indians_0_81_lbig_.png


Looks like that new ride at Six Flags.

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2010, 02:56 PM
Should have traded for Adrian Gonzalez when we had the chance. Beckham is not worth anything anymore, neither is Jenks.

So we can officially close the book on Beckham's career? :(:

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 02:56 PM
if we lose this game im going into my garden and killing all the tomatoes

This made me fall out of my seat.


That's the most nervous I've been in quite some time. Glad Bobby pulled it off.

jabrch
05-26-2010, 02:56 PM
I mean seriously, where was Santos?


Resting since we will need him to go 2 innings tomorrow maybe after Mark got the early heave ho?

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 02:56 PM
Jenks absolutely should not be used in high-leverage situations until he proves he can get batters out.

This is hard for me to say it because I love him, but he's not a closer anymore. If we want to use him, he's a sixth inning guy. If someone wants to take him, I'd welcome it and honestly I'd root for him to be successful, but he's just not a closer anymore. It's really hard to see a guy's career implode like this especially when you really liked him.

harwar
05-26-2010, 02:57 PM
without a doubt .. THE weirdest game ive ever seen in my life .. well,it's definitely in the top 3

LITTLE NELL
05-26-2010, 02:57 PM
Should have traded for Adrian Gonzalez when we had the chance. Beckham is not worth anything anymore, neither is Jenks.

Beckhams last AB was pathetic, he waved at 3 breaking balls like he didn't even care. Send him to the minors.

Risk
05-26-2010, 02:57 PM
The 9th inning sucked, but a win is a win.:gulp:

Risk

guillensdisciple
05-26-2010, 02:58 PM
So we can officially close the book on Beckham's career? :(:


I wouldn't say that, but he will need time to get himself together and the question in that scenario is if Beckham would have been a more profitable player than Adrian over the trade period.

That's something we overlook. Gordon might not be as good as we thought has was going to be- hell, I don't even remember what I thought he was supposed to be. That's how much he sucks now.

SoxGirl4Life
05-26-2010, 02:58 PM
I think I want to cry...

JB98
05-26-2010, 02:58 PM
"Almost lost" makes "pitching like ****" sound tolerable.

Closing is a black-and-white business. Either you protected the lead, or you didn't. Jenks protected the lead.

You stat guys are always crying about Bobby's declining K rate. Well, he got the damn K when he needed one.

LoveYourSuit
05-26-2010, 02:59 PM
So we can officially close the book on Beckham's career? :(:


I think it's way too early on that.

But scouts are probably getting to realize that he is a mental midget at the plate right now.

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 02:59 PM
So we can officially close the book on Beckham's career? :(:

That's silly. I know Beckham is struggling, but I'm not going to give up on a guy because he had a bad year in his second year.

Bruizer
05-26-2010, 02:59 PM
I think Cleveland's Manager did us a favor by having Crowe sacrifice the runners over when Bobby had already given up three runs with no outs yet. :cool:

Zakath
05-26-2010, 02:59 PM
With all the balks, errors, the almost-DP in the 9th? I found it exciting as hell. Now, if we had lost, I'd have likened it to a root canal.

Remember that the end result of a root canal is positive.

Had we lost, it'd have been more related to an unnecessary appendectomy sans anesthesia.

Bobby's WHIP (someone asked about it either here or in the game thread) is now over 2 (2.06; 17 IP, 24 H, 11 BB). Not good for a guy whose career WHIP is 1.21.

WhiteSox1989
05-26-2010, 03:00 PM
So we can officially close the book on Beckham's career? :(:
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/denied_encino_man.gif

DirtySox
05-26-2010, 03:00 PM
What a game.

Bobby Jenks is not a good pitcher.

Rikirk
05-26-2010, 03:00 PM
Joe West should be lined up against a wall and shot.

Mod Edit: Um no...

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
That's silly. I know Beckham is struggling, but I'm not going to give up on a guy because he had a bad year in his second year.

Either am I, he is young, super talented and he will figure it out. But maybe a trip down to Charlotte is not the worst thing in the world.

guillensdisciple
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
I think it's way too early on that.

But scouts are probably getting to realize that he is a mental midget at the plate right now.


That's the problem though, we seem to have two of the biggest mental midgets in the history of baseball in Quentin and Beckham.

Either one begins sucking and they begin sucking for a long time.

SI1020
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
Beckhams last AB was pathetic, he waved at 3 breaking balls like he didn't even care. Send him to the minors. I think at this point he is totally demoralized, and doesn't have a clue how to fix it.

sox1970
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
Jenks has a 6.35 ERA. Yeah, he'll be traded real soon. I'm sure Kenny's phone is ringing right now. :rolleyes:

GoGoCrede
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
Joe West, you can take your personal website and shove it.

JB98
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
I think Cleveland's Manager did us a favor by having Crowe sacrifice the runners over when Bobby had already given up three runs with no outs yet. :cool:

Agree 100 percent. I was delighted the Indians gave away an out. That also took the bat out of Choo's hands.

Terrible managing by Acta. We'll take it.

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
Closing is a black-and-white business. Either you protected the lead, or you didn't. Jenks protected the lead.

You stat guys are always crying about Bobby's declining K rate. Well, he got the damn K when he needed one.

I'm not much of a stat guy and I don't care about his declining K rate, but the guy has a 5.07 ERA and a 1.8 WHIP, that's not going to cut it for a closer. I love LOVE Bobby Jenks (I loved Shingo too!) but he's just not a closer right now and I have a hard time believing he will ever be one again.

LoveYourSuit
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
Closing is a black-and-white business. Either you protected the lead, or you didn't. Jenks protected the lead.

You stat guys are always crying about Bobby's declining K rate. Well, he got the damn K when he needed one.


First of all it wasn't a "closing" situation. The Sox were up 4.

And if you are OK with "Jenks protected the lead" because of only allowing 3 runs when we were up 4, then Cooperstown needs to open up gallery for Joe Borowski.

jabrch
05-26-2010, 03:02 PM
what a horribly miserable ****ing win.

I don't care how ugly a win is - it counts the same in the standings. Let's keep gaining ground on the Twins.

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2010, 03:02 PM
I think Cleveland's Manager did us a favor by having Crowe sacrifice the runners over when Bobby had already given up three runs with no outs yet. :cool:

Thank god for that, because the last person I wanted to see up was Choo. Terrible managing.

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 03:02 PM
Either am I, he is young, super talented and he will figure it out. But maybe a trip down to Charlotte is not the worst thing in the world.

Yea, I'm starting to think that too.

October26
05-26-2010, 03:03 PM
I forgot to say thank you to Tony Peņa for saving the White Sox bullpen today. Tony did a fantastic job and got the win. :bandance:


PS -> I've seen the Buehrle balk replays on WGN several times and still don't see the alleged balks, but then again I'm not a pitching expert by any means.

bestkosher
05-26-2010, 03:03 PM
Some would like to think this game a a hopefull rallying point. It is not. When your closer nearly soils the bed after the Sox overcome bad umping and bad hitting by Beckham, this is more a microcosm of the seasn where we can barely beat the teams that are below us and can not win against anything greater.

Its like the email I got yesterday from the Whtie Sox about season tickets being still availble for this year. I replied back see me again next April. This team is doomed to failure. To many career lows and failed expectation. (Why is it that I keep thinking of the MAD TV bit, "Lowered Expecations.")

Please Kenny start taking numbers at the Deli Counter called the Hot Stove and let other have a slice of Konerko a 200 some pound container of Jenks, and a Jar of Pickled Linebrinks. Heck they can even have some extra thin Alexi and some of the Soup of the day Crazy Quentin Chowder Head with a side of Randy Williams Fried Chicken.

Zakath
05-26-2010, 03:03 PM
I'm not much of a stat guy and I don't care about his declining K rate, but the guy has a 5.07 ERA and a 1.8 WHIP, that's not going to cut it for a closer. I love LOVE Bobby Jenks (I loved Shingo too!) but he's just not a closer right now and I have a hard time believing he will ever be one again.

Had. He's now at 6.35 and 2.06, respectively.

Crestani
05-26-2010, 03:04 PM
I think Cleveland's Manager did us a favor by having Crowe sacrifice the runners over when Bobby had already given up three runs with no outs yet. :cool:


Um...To put the tying run at third base with one out I think not! it was the right call and one I thought would work out against us, but thankful it didn't.

october23sp
05-26-2010, 03:04 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/denied_encino_man.gif

Hahahahahaha

harwar
05-26-2010, 03:04 PM
joe west needs serious therapy and he can't sing ..

palehozenychicty
05-26-2010, 03:05 PM
Bobby to the Phils with a Deep Dish and Chicago Dog? I'll take one of these guys, a 'wiz wid onions from Jim's, and a pretzel.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/top-10-prospects-for-2010-philadelphia-phillies-and-atlanta-braves/

LoveYourSuit
05-26-2010, 03:05 PM
what a horribly miserable ****ing win.

I don't care how ugly a win is - it counts the same in the standings. Let's keep gaining ground on the Twins.


Well, start caring.

It's crappy play like what we got from Jenks today the reason we win one night and lose the next.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 03:05 PM
Closing is a black-and-white business. Either you protected the lead, or you didn't. Jenks protected the lead.

You stat guys are always crying about Bobby's declining K rate. Well, he got the damn K when he needed one.
Oh spare me the "you stat guys " rah-rah bull****. Pitching is not black and white. You can try to separate closing from simply pitching, but it's very clear that Bobby Jenks does not, and may not ever again, have the form he displayed early in his career. Guess what? He's a ****ing bullpen guy. It happens. You move on. Hanging onto him because he "gets the job done" is, well, less than prudent.

spongyfungy
05-26-2010, 03:06 PM
So, what happened with Buehrle in the game?

samurai_sox
05-26-2010, 03:06 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/denied_encino_man.gif

:rolling:

LoveYourSuit
05-26-2010, 03:06 PM
Had. He's now at 6.35 and 2.06, respectively.


Seriously, but he did not give up the lead. That's all that matters.

:rolleyes:

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 03:07 PM
Oh spare me the "you stat guys " rah-rah bull****. Pitching is not black and white. You can try to separate closing from simply pitching, but it's very clear that Bobby Jenks does not, and may not ever again, have the form he displayed early in his career. Guess what? He's a ****ing bullpen guy. It happens. You move on. Hanging onto him because he "gets the job done" is, well, less than prudent.

He's not even getting the job done though. If this were a one run game, we'd be ****ed.

JB98
05-26-2010, 03:07 PM
First of all it wasn't a "closing" situation. The Sox were up 4.

And if you are OK with "Jenks protected the lead" because of only allowing 3 runs when we were up 4, then Cooperstown needs to open up gallery for Joe Borowski.

I'm absolutely OK with it, because the Sox scored more runs than the other team today.

That hasn't been happening enough this year. I piss and moan as much as anybody on WSI, but I am still happy when the club wins, regardless of the circumstances. I'll save my pissing and moaning for the losing gamethreads.

Bruizer
05-26-2010, 03:08 PM
Um...To put the tying run at third base with one out I think not! it was the right call and one I thought would work out against us, but thankful it didn't.

Normally, that's the right call. But with the way Bobby was pitching, they had to know we would intentially walk Choo. Giving up the first out with the tying run already in scoring position and Bobby imploding was a mistake IMO.

JB98
05-26-2010, 03:09 PM
Oh spare me the "you stat guys " rah-rah bull****. Pitching is not black and white. You can try to separate closing from simply pitching, but it's very clear that Bobby Jenks does not, and may not ever again, have the form he displayed early in his career. Guess what? He's a ****ing bullpen guy. It happens. You move on. Hanging onto him because he "gets the job done" is, well, less than prudent.

Fine, let's trade him. I'm sure his value is real high right now.

Take your crybaby bull**** to the "trade Jenks" thread.

Mod Edit: Please knock off the personal attacks.

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 03:09 PM
Had. He's now at 6.35 and 2.06, respectively.

Oh poor Bobby. It really makes me sad that his career is ending like this. I really like the guy and some of my friends who have met him say he is an incredibly nice guy.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 03:09 PM
I'm absolutely OK with it, because the Sox scored more runs than the other team today.

That hasn't been happening enough this year. I piss and moan as much as anybody on WSI, but I am still happy when the club wins, regardless of the circumstances. I'll save my pissing and moaning for the losing gamethreads.
No one's displeased with the final score. They're displeased with the ****ty pitcher that's consistently trotted out in the ninth inning.

Ideally, the bullpen would operate on merit. It doesn't.

voodoochile
05-26-2010, 03:09 PM
Oh spare me the "you stat guys " rah-rah bull****. Pitching is not black and white. You can try to separate closing from simply pitching, but it's very clear that Bobby Jenks does not, and may not ever again, have the form he displayed early in his career. Guess what? He's a ****ing bullpen guy. It happens. You move on. Hanging onto him because he "gets the job done" is, well, less than prudent.

You know what, I'm normally in agreement with the black and white view of pitching, but Bobby stunk today.

Yes, the team won and yes, that's great, but Bobby needs to figure out what's wrong and fix it.

JermaineDye05
05-26-2010, 03:10 PM
Cowley tweets

Oz on Joe West - "He's a ****ing *******." Poor Ibis Guillen. No shopping for her after this fine by MLB.http://twitter.com/cst_sox/statuses/14782503020

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 03:10 PM
Fine, let's trade him. I'm sure his value is real high right now.

Take your crybaby bull**** to the "trade Jenks" thread.
Is anyone crying? Or are you crying about crying? I'm merely stating a fact: he is not a good pitcher right now. You either pitch him in low leverage situations, working him in from time to time when things get desperate (we call this the Linebrink plan), or you trade him when his value is at its lowest.

Not many bullpen guys experience falls from grace like this and rebound. It's simple baseball economics.

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 03:10 PM
Fine, let's trade him. I'm sure his value is real high right now.

Take your crybaby bull**** to the "trade Jenks" thread.

God, I never thought the day would come where Craig Grebeck and I were on the same page, but do you think that he is the answer for the Sox as a closer? I don't. I agree that we can't just trade him right now, but I'd put him in a less stressful reliever role and hope he can do some good and then someone might take him.

GoGoCrede
05-26-2010, 03:12 PM
Sox fans and Southpaw won the "tweet-off" against Tribe fans and their mascot Slider, and raised $1K for cancer research. :gulp:

Southpaw celebrates. (http://twitpic.com/1rbeof)

JermaineDye05
05-26-2010, 03:12 PM
I just realized that we've won back-to-back series. Is that a first for 2010?

harwar
05-26-2010, 03:13 PM
Sox fans and Southpaw won the "tweet-off" against Tribe fans and their mascot Slider, and raised $1K for cancer research. :gulp:

Southpaw celebrates. (http://twitpic.com/1rbeof)


YES i'll drink to that ..

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 03:13 PM
Is anyone crying? Or are you crying about crying? I'm merely stating a fact: he is not a good pitcher right now. You either pitch him in low leverage situations, working him in from time to time when things get desperate (we call this the Linebrink plan), or you trade him when his value is at its lowest.

Not many bullpen guys experience falls from grace like this and rebound. It's simple baseball economics.

I feel very very close to tears.

And as for bullpen guys coming back, I think that with the exception of some guys (Mariano Rivera and a young Trevor Hoffman) most guys actually have up years and down years. That's what makes bullpen guys so risky. I wouldn't be shocked if Jenks bounced back, but I don't think the Sox can sit and hope that this happens.

October26
05-26-2010, 03:13 PM
Sox fans and Southpaw won the "tweet-off" against Tribe fans and their mascot Slider, and raised $1K for cancer research. :gulp:

Southpaw celebrates. (http://twitpic.com/1rbeof)

HOORAY! Go Sox & Southpaw!

harwar
05-26-2010, 03:14 PM
I just realized that we've won back-to-back series. Is that a first for 2010?



that must be why i feel so hysterically happy for no apparent reason :)

sox1970
05-26-2010, 03:14 PM
Cowley tweets

http://twitter.com/cst_sox/statuses/14782503020

Ozzie will get suspended. Since he's taking Friday off anyway, maybe he can kill two birds with one stone.

#1swisher
05-26-2010, 03:14 PM
I just realized that we've won back-to-back series. Is that a first for 2010?




I was just going to post this...seems everyone else didn't notice or care

:)

palehozenychicty
05-26-2010, 03:15 PM
Normally, that's the right call. But with the way Bobby was pitching, they had to know we would intentially walk Choo. Giving up the first out with the tying run already in scoring position and Bobby imploding was a mistake IMO.

Exactly. At some point, common sense has to enter the room. If you can't get the lineup bottom retired, how can you get the best hitter?

The Immigrant
05-26-2010, 03:15 PM
Oh poor Bobby. It really makes me sad that his career is ending like this.

Eh, his career is not close to being done. He throws in the mid-90s and is young. He just needs to find that curveball again but may need a change of scenery to do so.

Boondock Saint
05-26-2010, 03:16 PM
I think we need to start using JoeWest as an insult as in, "Bobby nearly JoeWested the bed today, but he managed not to JoeWest his teammates in the end."

Would it be too much to make a slight change of the language filter? If so, I'd gladly manually edit my swears. :redneck

twinsuck
05-26-2010, 03:16 PM
omg, I was so mad I ran into the bathroom and took a shower when Jenks gave up those runs.... I thought for sure that they would blow it. But sure enough, when I come out I find out the Sox won!! They really do better when I don't watch...

voodoochile
05-26-2010, 03:16 PM
I was just going to post this...seems everyone else didn't notice or care

:)


Always happy with a series win. Didn't think about them being back to back, but if the Sox are going to climb back to respectability, they have to win series...

WhiteSoxFTW
05-26-2010, 03:18 PM
Is anyone crying? Or are you crying about crying? I'm merely stating a fact: he is not a good pitcher right now. You either pitch him in low leverage situations, working him in from time to time when things get desperate (we call this the Linebrink plan), or you trade him when his value is at its lowest.

Not many bullpen guys experience falls from grace like this and rebound. It's simple baseball economics.

We can't afford two bullpen guys on the "Linebrink plan". It's just not feasible. One of them has to go. And, it's going to be Bobby. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

RANDY WILES
05-26-2010, 03:18 PM
Should have traded for Adrian Gonzalez when we had the chance. Beckham is not worth anything anymore, neither is Jenks.


Agree with you on Jenks but not Beckham---still a very young guy with "not a lot" of professional at bats. I would send him down to get squared away and he'll be back by end of season. A lot more concerned about Quentin's future than Beckham's..

LoveYourSuit
05-26-2010, 03:18 PM
I'm absolutely OK with it, because the Sox scored more runs than the other team today.

That hasn't been happening enough this year. I piss and moan as much as anybody on WSI, but I am still happy when the club wins, regardless of the circumstances. I'll save my pissing and moaning for the losing gamethreads.


We were one pitch from losing this one today.

Yes, I agree let's be happy with the win.

But Bobby Jenks is a problem. A HUGE ONE! It's not like he has had shut down outings every time out there, every outing becomes a complicated one.

They have to move him out of that role.

Baseball is a game of momentum. **** like that from the 9th inning: Beckham not even coming close to making contact with a runner on 3rd and 1 out, and Bobby's circus act kill any momentum this team had going. This after taking a huge momentum swing in their favor battling the adversity that came with ass clown Joe West.

slavko
05-26-2010, 03:23 PM
I feel very very close to tears.

And as for bullpen guys coming back, I think that with the exception of some guys (Mariano Rivera and a young Trevor Hoffman) most guys actually have up years and down years. That's what makes bullpen guys so risky. I wouldn't be shocked if Jenks bounced back, but I don't think the Sox can sit and hope that this happens.

That, my friend, is a rose of sanity in a field of thorns like "Put Him In Less Stressful Situations" and "Closers Can Only Pitch In Stressful Situations." The fact is that he's more biffed up than a football bat Right About Now.

I for one am glad I was busy setting up a golf game during that inning.

Zakath
05-26-2010, 03:23 PM
Some stats after this game to ponder (or fold, spindle, and mutilate, if you prefer):

Bullpen - 128 IP, 113 H, 53 ER, 11 HR, 62 BB, 139 K, 1.37 WHIP, 3.73 ERA

Bullpen outside of Williams and Jenks - 94 IP, 62 H, 30 ER, 7 HR, 33 BB, 102 K, 1.01 WHIP, 2.87 ERA

Slappy
05-26-2010, 03:24 PM
Wow, lots of replies for this game.

I missed the game, but was Bobby still throwing from the windup? Maybe it's time he cuts that out.

Sounds like it was a good game, so hopefully they replay it on Comcast?

Lip Man 1
05-26-2010, 03:27 PM
Joe West is one of the most arrogant, belligerent umpires in the game. He looks for trouble. Naturally 'Proud To Be Your Bud' and his cadre of clowns in MLB keep him working.

This isn't Milton Bradley we're talking about, a meatball and a head case. Mark Buehrle is as even tempered as they come, the fact that he had to be restrained says a lot about this situation.

You take the win and try to get whatever momentum you can from it, two series in a row won. If they can get back to .500 perceptions both among the fans, media and maybe the players themselves will change but you've got to get there.

As far as Bobby, not much to say since it's already been said over and over.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 03:29 PM
It's been about half an hour (I think) since the game ended and my heart is still racing, my head hurts and my stomach is turned into knots. This team is literally making me sick.

harwar
05-26-2010, 03:33 PM
my heart is still racing, my head hurts and my stomach is turned into knots.

thats my everyday condition .. drinking seems to help .. party at my house ..

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 03:33 PM
It's been about half an hour (I think) since the game ended and my heart is still racing, my head hurts and my stomach is turned into knots. This team is literally making me sick.
While I'm in school, I try to only watch three innings. I watched 3-5 today, and those were good enough for me. Happy to just open the box score and see we won, sad that I had to follow the last inning on Yahoo! to see if Jenks could somehow, by the grace of God, preserve a four run lead.

sox1970
05-26-2010, 03:34 PM
It's been about half an hour (I think) since the game ended and my heart is still racing, my head hurts and my stomach is turned into knots. This team is literally making me sick.

It's not worth it to get worked up about a 19-26 team....make that 20-26. If they get to .500 and are within 5 games, maybe I'll care. Until then, it was just two bad teams playing a game and one of them won...barely.

slavko
05-26-2010, 03:35 PM
Wow, lots of replies for this game.

I missed the game, but was Bobby still throwing from the windup? Maybe it's time he cuts that out.

Sounds like it was a good game, so hopefully they replay it on Comcast?

Not after the first batter.

October26
05-26-2010, 03:35 PM
It's been about half an hour (I think) since the game ended and my heart is still racing, my head hurts and my stomach is turned into knots. This team is literally making me sick.


Me too.

And you know what else, the post game show on the Score (AM 670) seems like it is getting shorter and shorter the last few games. Just heard the Ranger say highlights are next. This usually means the post game show will be over soon. I like to listen to the post game show on the radio to calm down after the game, so I'm kinda bummed about this today.

Chez
05-26-2010, 03:38 PM
Sox need to send Randy Williams down and bring up another arm for the bullpen. Pena can't pitch for 2-3 days and Jenks threw 36 pitches so he's not available for tomorrow either.

october23sp
05-26-2010, 03:38 PM
Happy with the win and series win, 6 games away from .500 keep chippin.

TheOldRoman
05-26-2010, 03:40 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/lgraphs/20100526_WhiteSox_Indians_0_81_lbig_.png
What is that supposed to represent? How much somebody thought we would win at any given point? That is nonsense.

JermaineDye05
05-26-2010, 03:40 PM
Oz really going off on West, have to imagine a suspension is forthcoming.

harwar
05-26-2010, 03:40 PM
Me too.

And you know what else, the post game show on the Score (AM 670) seems like it is getting shorter and shorter the last few games. Just heard the Ranger say highlights are next. This usually means the post game show will be over soon. I like to listen to the post game show on the radio to calm down after the game, so I'm kinda bummed about this today.

looks like boers and bernstein will be talking about it so there you go

October26
05-26-2010, 03:42 PM
looks like boers and bernstein will be talking about it so there you go

I just heard that too. Also sounds like Ozzie will get suspended for running his mouth. They are "editing the tape" so it can be played on the radio. Oh boy.

veeter
05-26-2010, 03:42 PM
Should have traded for Adrian Gonzalez when we had the chance. Beckham is not worth anything anymore, neither is Jenks.Nice hindsight.

Rikirk
05-26-2010, 03:43 PM
B and B are dorks.

Boondock Saint
05-26-2010, 03:45 PM
I just heard that too. Also sounds like Ozzie will get suspended for running his mouth. They are "editing the tape" so it can be played on the radio. Oh boy.

Whatever. If Joe West doesn't get a rip for this, someone needs to call out MLB for screwing up worse than West.

salty99
05-26-2010, 03:46 PM
In Jenks' last 12 games since 4/24: 9.00 ERA 19 hits 7 walks in 11IP and a .358 opponents batting average.

veeter
05-26-2010, 03:46 PM
Joe West is one of the most arrogant, belligerent umpires in the game. He looks for trouble. Naturally 'Proud To Be Your Bud' and his cadre of clowns in MLB keep him working.

This isn't Milton Bradley we're talking about, a meatball and a head case. Mark Buehrle is as even tempered as they come, the fact that he had to be restrained says a lot about this situation.

You take the win and try to get whatever momentum you can from it, two series in a row won. If they can get back to .500 perceptions both among the fans, media and maybe the players themselves will change but you've got to get there.

As far as Bobby, not much to say since it's already been said over and over.

LipMLB got better once Bruce Froemming left. It'll do the same when West and McClellan leave too. Just because you've been around for a while doesn't mean your good.

October26
05-26-2010, 03:47 PM
Whatever. If Joe West doesn't get a rip for this, someone needs to call out MLB for screwing up worse than West.

I agree with you. I am shocked that Buehrle was ejected from this game - he is just so mild mannered that I can't even imagine. I've seen the balk replays (both of them) on WGN and I don't understand the calls. I am happy that Ozzie stood up for Buehrle.

veeter
05-26-2010, 03:48 PM
That was the last time we'll see Jenks in a tight situation I believe.HE made it tight. I'm pretty sure he was out there for the Phillies benefit. A bag of balls will be Philadelphia's offer now.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 03:49 PM
What is that supposed to represent? How much somebody thought we would win at any given point? That is nonsense.
So much time wasted complaining about things that waste time.

Why is something like a win probability graph so offensive? You don't agree with the notion? Great. Move on. No need flouting your superiority to enter a fruitless argument.

Crede24Thome25
05-26-2010, 03:50 PM
Should have traded for Adrian Gonzalez when we had the chance. Beckham is not worth anything anymore, neither is Jenks.
I would do that deal in a heartbeat now.

harwar
05-26-2010, 03:50 PM
B and B are dorks.

i couldn't agree more .. my nephew used to watch beavis and butt-head and they always reminded me of them .. i haven't actually listened to them in years .. but for some reason i just can't let this game go ..

JermaineDye05
05-26-2010, 03:52 PM
B and B are dorks.

I actually love their show. I doubt they'll be the only ones discussing today's game though.

Zakath
05-26-2010, 03:53 PM
HE made it tight. I'm pretty sure he was out there for the Phillies benefit. A bag of balls will be Philadelphia's offer now.

New ones, or batting practice balls?

TDog
05-26-2010, 03:53 PM
That was the last time we'll see Jenks in a tight situation I believe.

You're wrong.

Ignoring the fact that Jenks didn't come into today's game in a tight situation, consider the following:

When Jon Rauch came in with a three-run lead in the ninth against the Brewers on Saturday and gave up a double, a single, a line-drive doubleplay a walk and another double, giving the Brewers the lead, it wasn't the last time Rauch was used in a tight situation.

When Brian Wilson relieved Tim Lincecum with a 4-1 lead and a runner on first with one out in the ninth and gave up a deep fly out in one of the deepest centerfields in baseball, a single, a walk and a bases clearing double to tie the game, it wasn't the last time he was used in a tight situation. He later came in to protect a Lincecum l2-1 lead in the ninth inning and sandwiched a single between two walks before facing a hitter who fouled off six pitches with a 3-2 count in a situation where a walk would have tied the game. A fly out to left ended that game, but after throwing 39 pitches, Wilson came back the next day with a 4-3 lead and had runners at first and third with two outs before striking out the hitter who ended the game the day before.

If you only look at Box scores, you miss how many really really interesting saves there are.

In Jenks' previous two games, no one hit the ball out of the infield. If you have a designated closer, unless you have someone who is the class of Dennis Eckersley, you are going to have games where the closer is ineffective. The fact is, Jenks has just as many blown saves as Thornton. Had Jenks given up the lead, he would have been in line for the loss, but he has half as many losses as Thornton. And yet Thornton has been more effective.

I'm not arguing that Jenks should be the designated closer on this team. I'm arguing against the closer mentality. But in today's game, Jenks was destined to pitch, with Buehrle being ejected after getting only seven outs three days after Garcia only got seven outs and starters only able to go five the two nights in between. Imagine Indians fans getting excited about seeing the Sox bullpen in the third.

The story in this game is Tony Pena stepping up and going through most of the Indians lineup twice. I'm glad to see the scorer gave him the win. There was a time when the scoring rules did not have the flexibility to award the win to anyone but Williams.

(Shades of Pablo Torrealba who many Sox fans didn't even know was on the team, coming in a low-key trade on the eve of the season, and who pitched 3.2 innings allowing only two baserunners in the second game of the 1978 season to hold the Red Sox to five runs in the 6-5 White Sox come-from-behind win. The Red Sox should have left starter Dennis Eckersley in to pitch the eighth where the White Sox score four runs off the Red Sox bullpen, but I digress.)

It was nice to see the White Sox come back today and score as a seeming answer to Buehrle's ejection. The two-out bases-loaded hit by Teahen was huge. So was the Kotsay home run, when all the Sox needed was a single to score the run. That additional run would be the difference, as things turned out, but it probably won't stop people from questioning why Kotsay is in the lineup.

The Sox would have swept the series if Peavy had done his job Tuesday night, but today's game was exciting game, and in the face of adversity, the White Sox won. No complaints.

WhiteSox1989
05-26-2010, 03:55 PM
I would do that deal in a heartbeat now.
Except Beckham is what, only 23 years old? Still has room to grow/improve.

Slappy
05-26-2010, 03:55 PM
Just saw the replay on CLTV. Joe West is a bitter old man that has no business being a professional umpire anymore.

TheOldRoman
05-26-2010, 03:57 PM
So much time wasted complaining about things that waste time.

Why is something like a win probability graph so offensive? You don't agree with the notion? Great. Move on. No need flouting your superiority to enter a fruitless argument.People post things like that to prove a point or show some relevance. There is none at all. You mean the Sox looked like they were going to win easily, then it got dicey, and then they really won? That is awesome! Now let's think up some random numbers to quantify how much we were really really sure they were going to win. It is a graph, it has colors. Wow. I would be akin to me posting a picture I drew in kindergarten in a postgame thread - still not relevant.

Crestani
05-26-2010, 03:59 PM
You're wrong.

Ignoring the fact that Jenks didn't come into today's game in a tight situation, consider the following:

When Jon Rauch came in with a three-run lead in the ninth against the Brewers on Saturday and gave up a double, a single, a line-drive doubleplay a walk and another double, giving the Brewers the lead, it wasn't the last time Rauch was used in a tight situation.

When Brian Wilson relieved Tim Lincecum with a 4-1 lead and a runner on first with one out in the ninth and gave up a deep fly out in one of the deepest centerfields in baseball, a single, a walk and a bases clearing double to tie the game, it wasn't the last time he was used in a tight situation. He later came in to protect a Lincecum l2-1 lead in the ninth inning and sandwiched a single between two walks before facing a hitter who fouled off six pitches with a 3-2 count in a situation where a walk would have tied the game. A fly out to left ended that game, but after throwing 39 pitches, Wilson came back the next day with a 4-3 lead and had runners at first and third with two outs before striking out the hitter who ended the game the day before.

If you only look at Box scores, you miss how many really really interesting saves there are.

In Jenks' previous two games, no one hit the ball out of the infield. If you have a designated closer, unless you have someone who is the class of Dennis Eckersley, you are going to have games where the closer is ineffective. The fact is, Jenks has just as many blown saves as Thornton. Had Jenks given up the lead, he would have been in line for the loss, but he has half as many losses as Thornton. And yet Thornton has been more effective.

I'm not arguing that Jenks should be the designated closer on this team. I'm arguing against the closer mentality. But in today's game, Jenks was destined to pitch, with Buehrle being ejected after getting only seven outs three days after Garcia only got seven outs and starters only able to go five the two nights in between. Imagine Indians fans getting excited about seeing the Sox bullpen in the third.

The story in this game is Tony Pena stepping up and going through most of the Indians lineup twice. I'm glad to see the scorer gave him the win. There was a time when the scoring rules did not have the flexibility to award the win to anyone but Williams.

(Shades of Pablo Torrealba who many Sox fans didn't even know was on the team, coming in a low-key trade on the eve of the season, and who pitched 3.2 innings allowing only two baserunners in the second game of the 1978 season to hold the Red Sox to five runs in the 6-5 White Sox come-from-behind win. The Red Sox should have left starter Dennis Eckersley in to pitch the eighth where the White Sox score four runs off the Red Sox bullpen, but I digress.)

It was nice to see the White Sox come back today and score as a seeming answer to Buehrle's ejection. The two-out bases-loaded hit by Teahen was huge. So was the Kotsay home run, when all the Sox needed was a single to score the run. That additional run would be the difference, as things turned out, but it probably won't stop people from questioning why Kotsay is in the lineup.

The Sox would have swept the series if Peavy had done his job Tuesday night, but today's game was exciting game, and in the face of adversity, the White Sox won. No complaints.


I want some of what you are eating to have a memory like that..!!:scratch:

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 04:02 PM
People post things like that to prove a point or show some relevance. There is none at all. You mean the Sox looked like they were going to win easily, then it got dicey, and then they really won? That is awesome! Now let's think up some random numbers to quantify how much we were really really sure they were going to win. It is a graph, it has colors. Wow. I would be akin to me posting a picture I drew in kindergarten in a postgame thread - still not relevant.
Some people have it so tough.

PushinWeight
05-26-2010, 04:06 PM
Way too much *****ing about Jenks, Beckham, Guillen etc. going on in this post game thread. I am guessing that not many people watched the entirety of this game because if you did you would be overjoyed like I am that we got the win. After Buehrle and the managerial staff got tossed I thought we had no chance of winning this game and I credit the team for not falling apart after the incident and pulling this one out. Ozzie deserves nothing but praise for his actions today as he did everything exactly the way a manager should in the days circumstances. The media NEEDS to hold Joe West accountable and get him to talk about this.

Save your complaining for the next game, this was the best win of the season, albeit there aren't as many of those as we'd all like.

ilsox7
05-26-2010, 04:08 PM
People post things like that to prove a point or show some relevance. There is none at all. You mean the Sox looked like they were going to win easily, then it got dicey, and then they really won? That is awesome! Now let's think up some random numbers to quantify how much we were really really sure they were going to win. It is a graph, it has colors. Wow. I would be akin to me posting a picture I drew in kindergarten in a postgame thread - still not relevant.

You're on fire today!

LoveYourSuit
05-26-2010, 04:09 PM
People post things like that to prove a point or show some relevance. There is none at all. You mean the Sox looked like they were going to win easily, then it got dicey, and then they really won? That is awesome! Now let's think up some random numbers to quantify how much we were really really sure they were going to win. It is a graph, it has colors. Wow. I would be akin to me posting a picture I drew in kindergarten in a postgame thread - still not relevant.


I believe that graph is from ESPN's gamecast.

I think it's a cool guage just to show the momentum swings in the game.

It is very symbolic of White Sox baseball this year, a roller coaster.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 04:10 PM
I believe that graph is from ESPN's gamecast.

I think it's a cool guage just to show the momentum swings in the game.

It is very symbolic of White Sox baseball this year, a roller coaster.
A roller coaster?! You mean that thing that, that, that, ride?! That thing you ride?! Fooey! Waste of time. Stay on the ground!

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2010, 04:10 PM
Oh spare me the "you stat guys " rah-rah bull****. Pitching is not black and white. You can try to separate closing from simply pitching, but it's very clear that Bobby Jenks does not, and may not ever again, have the form he displayed early in his career. Guess what? He's a ****ing bullpen guy. It happens. You move on. Hanging onto him because he "gets the job done" is, well, less than prudent.

As one of the biggest Bobby supporters here, it kills me to agree with this.

DirtySox
05-26-2010, 04:10 PM
A roller coaster?! You mean that thing that, that, that, ride?! That thing you ride?! Fooey! Waste of time. Stay on the ground! Kids, today.

****ing numbers, how do they work?!

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 04:13 PM
While I'm in school, I try to only watch three innings. I watched 3-5 today, and those were good enough for me. Happy to just open the box score and see we won, sad that I had to follow the last inning on Yahoo! to see if Jenks could somehow, by the grace of God, preserve a four run lead.

During one game in school it was close and it was important and I remember just trying as hard as I could NOT to think about the game and I started feeling sick (this was during '08 so it was a big game). I remember thinking "Oh God, this must be what a junkie feels like when they need a fix..." I might be addicted to the Sox and it makes me sick! :cool:

TheOldRoman
05-26-2010, 04:15 PM
I believe that graph is from ESPN's gamecast.

I think it's a cool guage just to show the momentum swings in the game.

It is very symbolic of White Sox baseball this year, a roller coaster.It being from ESPN doesn't make it meaningful.


****ing numbers, how do they work?!Cool. People disagree with you, so it could only be because they are "dinosaurs" or not as intelligent as you.

Please, explain how the glorious "numbers" are used to tell us the probability of a team winning a certain game at any given point. Enlighten us.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 04:16 PM
It being from ESPN doesn't make it meaningful.


Cool. People disagree with you, so it could only be because they are "dinosaurs" or not as intelligent as you.

Please, explain how the glorious "numbers" are used to tell us the probability of a team winning a certain game at any given point. Enlighten us.
DirtySox's tongue-in-cheek rebuttal is really no worse than your dead serious belittlement of anyone who reads or monitors or likes to look at graphs about baseball.

jdm2662
05-26-2010, 04:24 PM
Did I read correctly that both Joe West and Angel Hernandez are on the same staff? :o: And I thought Hunter Wendlestant and Bruce Fromning together was bad...

TheOldRoman
05-26-2010, 04:26 PM
DirtySox's tongue-in-cheek rebuttal is really no worse than your dead serious belittlement of anyone who reads or monitors or likes to look at graphs about baseball.I have seen baseball graphs. It is interesting to look at trends, but they don't tell you about the future. I don't belittle people who use statistics, but when you use irrelevant ones to prove a point, you should expect scrutiny. I have taken undergrad and graduate level statistic courses. I undestand statistics. The problem comes when people make up meaingless stats. OBP? Meaningful, it tells you how much a hitter gets on base. Slugging Percentage? Meaningful, it measures power and how many bases a guy gets. OPS? Not meaningful. What does it show you? Higher is better? Yeah, but why? What attribute does it portray?

FielderJones
05-26-2010, 04:26 PM
omg, I was so mad I ran into the bathroom and took a shower when Jenks gave up those runs.... I thought for sure that they would blow it. But sure enough, when I come out I find out the Sox won!! They really do better when I don't watch...

:tmi:

Bruizer
05-26-2010, 04:26 PM
Please, explain how the glorious "numbers" are used to tell us the probability of a team winning a certain game at any given point. Enlighten us.

If I recall, it's all based on a statistical analysis of historic trends based on the current situation in the game. It includes the probability of scoring depending on the number of outs, how many runners are on base, etc.

Tragg
05-26-2010, 04:27 PM
Closing is a black-and-white business. Either you protected the lead, or you didn't. Jenks protected the lead.

You stat guys are always crying about Bobby's declining K rate. Well, he got the damn K when he needed one.
That's a little over simplified.

I don't agree with some stats analysis in which giving up a run in a 10 run game is the same as giving up a run in a 2 run game. You certainly have to look at the context.
But giving up 3 runs with a 4 run lead is not good.

stevemcstud
05-26-2010, 04:27 PM
Let's not overlook the best thing that came out of today. We have won two series in a row. First time all year!

Yes we won 5-4, Jenks is no longer going to be the closer most likely, but I don't see how any of us can get upset when our starter doesn't even go 3 innings and you still win.

We scored 5 runs which is great. Lets get the Rays now!

WhiteSox5187
05-26-2010, 04:28 PM
I have seen baseball graphs. It is interesting to look at trends, but they don't tell you about the future. I don't belittle people who use statistics, but when you use irrelevant ones to prove a point, you should expect scrutiny. I have taken undergrad and graduate level statistic courses. I undestand statistics. The problem comes when people make up meaingless stats. OBP? Meaningful, it tells you how much a hitter gets on base. Slugging Percentage? Meaningful, it measures power and how many bases a guy gets. OPS? Not meaningful. What does it show you? Higher is better? Yeah, but why? What attribute does it portray?

I think the thing with all statistics is that they do provide some insight into the game and provide a way of trying to help get a better hold of them, but they aren't infallible and they aren't the end all be all. A guy can have a low OPS but still be a valuable contributor to a team. Conversely, a guy can have a high OPS and still be a hinderance to his team more than a help.

RANDY WILES
05-26-2010, 04:30 PM
Sox need to send Randy Williams down and bring up another arm for the bullpen. Pena can't pitch for 2-3 days and Jenks threw 36 pitches so he's not available for tomorrow either.

That's a blessing!!

DirtySox
05-26-2010, 04:30 PM
DirtySox's tongue-in-cheek rebuttal is really no worse than your dead serious belittlement of anyone who reads or monitors or likes to look at graphs about baseball.

I also felt the need to jump in on that ridiculous ICP/magnet meme.

Sam Spade
05-26-2010, 04:34 PM
While I'm in school, I try to only watch three innings. I watched 3-5 today, and those were good enough for me. Happy to just open the box score and see we won, sad that I had to follow the last inning on Yahoo! to see if Jenks could somehow, by the grace of God, preserve a four run lead.

It was God, then, that did it? Awesome. Didn't know until now.

vinny
05-26-2010, 04:34 PM
I believe that graph is from ESPN's gamecast.

I think it's a cool guage just to show the momentum swings in the game.

It is very symbolic of White Sox baseball this year, a roller coaster.

Also symbolic of my blood pressure during the game...

DirtySox
05-26-2010, 04:39 PM
I don't belittle people who use statistics, but when you use irrelevant ones to prove a point, you should expect scrutiny.

I must have missed the point Gavin was trying to make by posting it. Especially since it was merely a picture with no statements or text supporting it. No need to get all uppity about the mere posting of a win probability graph.

voodoochile
05-26-2010, 04:49 PM
I must have missed the point Gavin was trying to make by posting it. Especially since it was merely a picture with no statements or text supporting it. No need to get all uppity about the mere posting of a win probability graph.

Nor is there reason to get uppity about someone getting uppity about the mere posting of a win probability graph...

It goes both ways donchaknow...

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 05:10 PM
Nor is there reason to get uppity about someone getting uppity about the mere posting of a win probability graph...

It goes both ways donchaknow...
Fair enough.

Also, slugging percentage is kinda stupid.

Gavin
05-26-2010, 05:20 PM
What is that supposed to represent? How much somebody thought we would win at any given point? That is nonsense.

What is nonsense about comparing a current situation to the result of very similar past situations? Are you against comparing anything, ever, because it uses numbers?

The only point I was trying to make was... we were LUCKY to get out of this game. The odds were against us--both because Jenks was pitching (using my gee-shucks-foksly-I-know-baseball-whens-I-sees-it-don't-need-no-numbers-twitchy-right-handiness) and because, historically, in the majority of instances of this type of situation, the home team rallies to win.

Noneck
05-26-2010, 06:16 PM
Since Buehrle only threw 38 pitches and Tampa has problems with leftys, is it possible they bring him back on Sunday?

bunty_doghunter
05-26-2010, 06:43 PM
Ozzie was gone, Buehrle was gone, and yet we won? So it is possible! Addition by subtraction perhaps?

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2010, 07:05 PM
Since Buehrle only threw 38 pitches and Tampa has problems with leftys, is it possible they bring him back on Sunday?

I would.

KyWhiSoxFan
05-26-2010, 07:10 PM
I read through this whole thread because I missed the game and was wondering about Buehrle in particular because I read about the ejections, etc., before visiting WSI.

Well, did he or did he not balk? I really don't see any opinions on this other than everyone saying West is a bad umpire. That may be, but did Buehrle balk or not?

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 07:36 PM
I read through this whole thread because I missed the game and was wondering about Buehrle in particular because I read about the ejections, etc., before visiting WSI.

Well, did he or did he not balk? I really don't see any opinions on this other than everyone saying West is a bad umpire. That may be, but did Buehrle balk or not?

Thank you. I'm still waiting for someone to weigh in on this.

voodoochile
05-26-2010, 07:41 PM
Thank you. I'm still waiting for someone to weigh in on this.

Hard to say on the first one, his knee may have just crossed the front of the rubber or come in contact with that edge. Second one, I don't think was a balk at least in terms of foot breaking the plane of the rubber. They showed a still of both windups that received the balk call during the game but not a slow motion breakdown of the actual moves that I noticed.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 07:50 PM
Hard to say on the first one, his knee may have just crossed the front of the rubber or come in contact with that edge. Second one, I don't think was a balk at least in terms of foot breaking the plane of the rubber. They showed a still of both windups that received the balk call during the game but not a slow motion breakdown of the actual moves that I noticed.

This isn't an easy call to make, especially with Buehrle's move. I thought the rule was you can't make a move towards the plate. In both instances, in my opinion, it looks like Buehrle's hips start downward and towards the plate.

I know he's been using this move for years, and I'm sure West wanted to feel like the BMOC and didn't like Mark throwing over to 1st 3 times. I just want to be sure he made the wrong call.

WhiteSox1989
05-26-2010, 07:52 PM
This isn't an easy call to make, especially with Buehrle's move. I thought the rule was you can't make a move towards the plate. In both instances, in my opinion, it looks like Buehrle's hips start downward and towards the plate.

I know he's been using this move for years, and I'm sure West wanted to feel like the BMOC and didn't like Mark throwing over to 1st 3 times. I just want to be sure he made the wrong call.

I just watched it, and I believe he mad the wrong call.

I was also watching ESPN at the gym and they said it wasn't a balk--the dude next to me, told me he thought it was a bull**** call as well.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 07:54 PM
I just watched it, and I believe he mad the wrong call.

I was also watching ESPN at the gym and they said it wasn't a balk--the dude next to me, told me he thought it was a bull**** call as well.

In the booth Stone said it was the wrong call. He pitched for many years so I tend to believe him. I'm not arguing for Joe West (the guy is a tool) I just want to be clear on the balk rule.

voodoochile
05-26-2010, 08:01 PM
This isn't an easy call to make, especially with Buehrle's move. I thought the rule was you can't make a move towards the plate. In both instances, in my opinion, it looks like Buehrle's hips start downward and towards the plate.

I know he's been using this move for years, and I'm sure West wanted to feel like the BMOC and didn't like Mark throwing over to 1st 3 times. I just want to be sure he made the wrong call.

Whether he made the wrong call or not, both of the ejections were perfunctory, very fast and uncalled for. Ozzie came out looking for an explanation and West was waving him back to the dugout before Ozzie even got 10 steps from the dugout. Then he made a quick reply to whatever Ozzie asked and waved his hand again. It almost looked like he was dismissing Ozzie. Ozzie then snapped and said something hot and Joe ejected him immediately.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 08:04 PM
Whether he made the wrong call or not, both of the ejections were perfunctory, very fast and uncalled for. Ozzie came out looking for an explanation and West was waving him back to the dugout before Ozzie even got 10 steps from the dugout. Then he made a quick reply to whatever Ozzie asked and waved his hand again. It almost looked like he was dismissing Ozzie. Ozzie then snapped and said something hot and Joe ejected him immediately.

Completely agree on the first ejection. West was wrong. There's no reason Ozzie can't come out to get an explanation.

On the second one, Buehrle shouldn't have thrown his glove down, but it's all in relation to the second balk call.

Joe West is a douche, but I'm trying to get clarification on the balk calls.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 08:06 PM
I think it was probably a 55-45, 50-50 call, but Joe West was ready to call him for anything.

Also, Buehrle getting tossed...I was livid at first, but he did show up West by tossing his glove.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 08:08 PM
I think it was probably a 55-45, 50-50 call, but Joe West was ready to call him for anything.

Also, Buehrle getting tossed...I was livid at first, but he did show up West by tossing his glove.

If it's that close, wouldn't that mean Buehrle's been toeing the line for his entire career?

I agree he showed up West and probably should have been tossed (despite West's apparent agenda this afternoon.)

Boondock Saint
05-26-2010, 08:09 PM
For anyone who loves Chappelle's Show, there's a great reference in ESPN's recap (http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300526105).

"Is Mark Kotsay gonna have to hit a pitch?"

:rolling:

Brian26
05-26-2010, 08:09 PM
I think it was probably a 55-45, 50-50 call, but Joe West was ready to call him for anything.

CSN showed some of the pickoff throws before the 2nd balk call, and I thought the pickoff move right before the balk was actually closer to a balk than the move that earned balk call.

Love or hate Harrelson, he saw what Joe West was up to before Ozzie even got rung up on the first balk call.

TDog
05-26-2010, 08:13 PM
In the booth Stone said it was the wrong call. He pitched for many years so I tend to believe him. I'm not arguing for Joe West (the guy is a tool) I just want to be clear on the balk rule.

Even if he makes the determination that it is a borderline balk, it is a move that Buehrle has been getting away with for years, a move that umpires have told hundreds of times is not a balk. Veteran pitchers who have great moves have had that line established. Hence the anger from Buehrle.

I watched the replay on mlb.com and didn't see a flagrant balk. I also was surprised with how quickly West tossed Buehrle. It was as if people paid to see West today and not Buehrle, or so West's actions show he must have thought as much.

I wonder if members of the Indians complained to West before the game that Buehrle balks all the time and never gets called, questioning the manhood or perhaps the song-writing ability of any umpire who doesn't call Buehrle on his balk move.

I generally don't trust umpires who have publicists, and I have never thought much of West.

Brian26
05-26-2010, 08:14 PM
I agree he showed up West and probably should have been tossed (despite West's apparent agenda this afternoon.)

After seeing the replay, I don't think Buehrle was trying to show up anyone. He momentarily let his emotions rush out, but the glove move was understated. Notice how he immediately corrected himself and picked it up off the ground. West would have missed it if he would have turned his head for a second or two. It wasn't a Ted Lilly circus display.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 08:18 PM
After seeing the replay, I don't think Buehrle was trying to show up anyone. He momentarily let his emotions rush out, but the glove move was understated. Notice how he immediately corrected himself and picked it up off the ground. West would have missed it if he would have turned his head for a second or two. It wasn't a Ted Lilly circus display.

That's true and the ejection is amplified by Ozzie's rant the previous inning.

Again though, my concern is with the balk call. It's so damn borderline that it's hard to tell. If this becomes an issue in the future, Mark is going to have trouble holding runners.

TDog
05-26-2010, 08:18 PM
After seeing the replay, I don't think Buehrle was trying to show up anyone. He momentarily let his emotions rush out, but the glove move was understated. Notice how he immediately corrected himself and picked it up off the ground. West would have missed it if he would have turned his head for a second or two. It wasn't a Ted Lilly circus display.

Good umpires pretend not to see and hear a lot of player reactions that are understated.

voodoochile
05-26-2010, 08:44 PM
Even if he makes the determination that it is a borderline balk, it is a move that Buehrle has been getting away with for years, a move that umpires have told hundreds of times is not a balk. Veteran pitchers who have great moves have had that line established. Hence the anger from Buehrle.

I watched the replay on mlb.com and didn't see a flagrant balk. I also was surprised with how quickly West tossed Buehrle. It was as if people paid to see West today and not Buehrle, or so West's actions show he must have thought as much.

I wonder if members of the Indians complained to West before the game that Buehrle balks all the time and never gets called, questioning the manhood or perhaps the song-writing ability of any umpire who doesn't call Buehrle on his balk move.

I generally don't trust umpires who have publicists, and I have never thought much of West.

I was thinking the same thing. Actually, I was wondering if Sandy Alomar said something while coaching first.

"Joe, I caught Buehrle lots of times and he even admits it's a balk."

TDog
05-26-2010, 08:48 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Actually, I was wondering if Sandy Alomar said something while coaching first.

"Joe, I caught Buehrle lots of times and he even admits it's a balk."

Wow, the Alomar aspect is something I didn't even think of. If Alomar didn't influence the balk calls, there's an extraordinary coincidence there.

Zakath
05-26-2010, 09:00 PM
After seeing the replay, I don't think Buehrle was trying to show up anyone. He momentarily let his emotions rush out, but the glove move was understated. Notice how he immediately corrected himself and picked it up off the ground. West would have missed it if he would have turned his head for a second or two. It wasn't a Ted Lilly circus display.

I looked at it as analogous to when Dye threw his batting helmet down (in Minnesota, if memory serves) after striking out and it came up and hit the ump. Probably not intentional, but you're getting tossed anyway.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Buehrle had not been tossed. Would have he been called for another balk? Would West have ever given him an explanation as to what he was doing that made it a balk? Would have he cited the rule book provision (8.05 a-m) that Mark violated? Does West even know how to read?

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2010, 09:01 PM
Does West even know how to read?

He certainly knows how to eat.

october23sp
05-26-2010, 09:03 PM
Who created the thread title? Frank Thomas.

/lame.

WhiteSox1989
05-26-2010, 09:04 PM
Who created the thread title? Frank Thomas.

/lame.
hahaha.

No doubt.

VMSNS
05-26-2010, 09:13 PM
The thing that I found very telling was Stone's reaction. For every game Stone has ever called, his voice is always pretty indifferent and even. Yet, you could tell immediately that he was pissed when he said something like "Joe West is not giving us the opportunity to win this game" or somethings like. Stone also was quite adamant that neither was a balk, and I'd trust his judgment more than anyone's.

I didn't see the game (just the highlights), but how was Hawk after Buehrle's ejection? I bet he was absolutely merciless in the next few innings.

GoGoCrede
05-26-2010, 09:14 PM
The thing that I found very telling was Stone's reaction. For every game Stone has ever called, his voice is always pretty indifferent and even. Yet, you could tell immediately that he was pissed when he said something like "Joe West is not giving us the opportunity to win this game" or somethings like. Stone also was quite adamant that neither was a balk, and I'd trust his judgment more than anyone's.

I didn't see the game (just the highlights), but how was Hawk after Buehrle's ejection? I bet he was absolutely merciless in the next few innings.

Hawk was pretty unbearable, to be honest. IMO.

WhiteSox1989
05-26-2010, 09:15 PM
Hawk was pretty unbearable, to be honest. IMO.
I saw the video up on the site, and I thought Hawk was hilarious.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 09:33 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that Mark didn't balk.

hi im skot
05-26-2010, 09:34 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that Mark didn't balk.

Steve Stone said it a couple times.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 09:43 PM
Steve Stone said it a couple times.

I heard it. I don't want to rest the entire situation on the the words of a former pitcher during the heat of the conflict/broadcast.

I hope he's right, I'm just not so sure.

pearso66
05-26-2010, 09:52 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that Mark didn't balk.


I didn't see any tape of the game, but one of my friends, who is a Tigers fan, so he wouldn't be looking at it as a "homer" said neither one was a balk. I know if he thought they were he would be sure to tell me they were.

1989
05-26-2010, 09:57 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me that Mark didn't balk.

If those are balks, I want to know what isn't a balk

VMSNS
05-26-2010, 10:01 PM
I heard it. I don't want to rest the entire situation on the the words of a former pitcher during the heat of the conflict/broadcast.

I hope he's right, I'm just not so sure.

Stone said something like...

"Buehrle's been using that move since he first entered this league years ago. I've studied his move quite a bit. I've also spent many years in the MLB, many more years than Mr. West, and that wasn't a balk."

wassagstdu
05-26-2010, 10:01 PM
I don't see Jenks' performance quite as negatively as most. I see it as two performances. First he stunk and made it a 1-run game with the bases loaded and nobody out. But from that point on he was a different pitcher. Admittedly he got some help from the sacrifice. But he still worked out of the jam. I say it's a wash.

In my opinion the most important piece of unfinished business for this season is for the organization to figure out what went wrong with Gordon Beckham and either fix it or make changes to make sure it doesn't happen again. This is way beyond a slump. I won't accept that Beckham just isn't any good.

mccoydp
05-26-2010, 10:06 PM
I got to watch a good chunk of the game at a bar in O'Hare Airport today during a flight layover; got to see Carlos strike out with the bases loaded and Kotsay's homerun. Just how bad was Jenks? I missed his epic performance.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 10:17 PM
Stone said something like...

"Buehrle's been using that move since he first entered this league years ago. I've studied his move quite a bit. I've also spent many years in the MLB, many more years than Mr. West, and that wasn't a balk."

"Mark Buehrle can't believe it because he's been using that move for as long as he's been in the league. And for as long as he's been in the league that's been very effective. Joe West on the job. I'm having a hard time seeing where that's a balk."

Wonderful. Why isn't it a balk?

I've watched it several times. In the second instance it still looks like he moves towards home plate.

vinny
05-26-2010, 10:32 PM
For anyone who loves Chappelle's Show, there's a great reference in ESPN's recap (http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300526105).

"Is Mark Kotsay gonna have to hit a pitch?"

:rolling:

Next on Ozzie Guillen's True MLB Ejection Stories:

"I'm Joe West, bitch!" :bitchslap:

Coops4Aces
05-26-2010, 10:37 PM
The "balks":

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8366649&c_id=cws

Coops4Aces
05-26-2010, 10:41 PM
"Mark Buehrle can't believe it because he's been using that move for as long as he's been in the league. And for as long as he's been in the league that's been very effective. Joe West on the job. I'm having a hard time seeing where that's a balk."

Wonderful. Why isn't it a balk?

I've watched it several times. In the second instance it still looks like he moves towards home plate.

If MLB wants to start calling a balk on Mark's move, I hope hope that they told him first. I think West was just trying to prove a point.

SoxandtheCityTee
05-26-2010, 10:45 PM
I heard it. I don't want to rest the entire situation on the the words of a former pitcher during the heat of the conflict/broadcast.

I hope he's right, I'm just not so sure.


Everyone on BBTN (Valentine, Singleton, the other guy) agreed: not a balk. They ran the move not called alongside the one called, drew the red line, and said they were the same, and that Pettitte has been doing the same thing for years, too.

Course, you may think that if ESPN says it, the opposite is true.:D:

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 10:46 PM
Stone said something like...

"Buehrle's been using that move since he first entered this league years ago. I've studied his move quite a bit. I've also spent many years in the MLB, many more years than Mr. West, and that wasn't a balk."

I'll credit you because my quote doesn't encompass completely what Stone said. I only gathered his first comment, and this is pretty dead on for his second comments.

Still, I'd like to know why Mark's move is or isn't a balk.

Slappy
05-26-2010, 10:47 PM
The "balks":

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8366649&c_id=cws

What a buffoon. My blood is starting to boil over this idiot. ****!

BadBobbyJenks
05-26-2010, 10:48 PM
If MLB wants to start calling a balk on Mark's move, I hope hope that they told him first. I think West was just trying to prove a point.

Somehow I have gone the whole day without seeing that. I would have ranted just like Hawk did, terrible.

Marqhead
05-26-2010, 10:48 PM
Everyone on BBTN (Valentine, Singleton, the other guy) agreed: not a balk. They ran the move not called alongside the one called, drew the red line, and said they were the same, and that Pettitte has been doing the same thing for years, too.

Course, you may think that if ESPN says it, the opposite is true.:D:

I wish I hadn't missed that, it's precisely what I'm looking for. Still I'm surprised with all the baseball knowledge on this board that someone can't come up with an explanation for why Mark's moves weren't balks.

Slappy
05-26-2010, 10:59 PM
I dunno. They ran through the balk thing on the studio "diamond" a couple weeks ago on BBTN when it was called on someone else. Clayton Richard maybe? I still don't have a firm grasp on what a balk is, since it's been years since I pitched. It's a little more complicated than just breaking towards the plate from what I remember them saying, but that is basically what I always thought a balk was.

Coops4Aces
05-26-2010, 11:12 PM
The rule book states that you must step directly toward first, but I've always heard that there is an imaginary 45 degree line between first base, the pitching rubber, and home plate. Evidently a lefty can't break that 45 degree angle, which makes sense. The first base side of the 45 degree angle is stepping towards first and the home plate side of the 45 degree angle is stepping towards home.

Slappy
05-26-2010, 11:31 PM
That's what I was forgetting, that imaginary 45 degree line.

TDog
05-27-2010, 12:13 AM
I wish I hadn't missed that, it's precisely what I'm looking for. Still I'm surprised with all the baseball knowledge on this board that someone can't come up with an explanation for why Mark's moves weren't balks.

Oddly enough, Joe West hasn't been able to provide an explanation for why those moves were balks and near identical moves were not, at least in the public statement he released.

twinsuck
05-27-2010, 12:21 AM
:tmi:
It's TMI that I took a shower?? seriously?? :scratch:

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-27-2010, 12:29 AM
Pena has actually been solid this year, in the few opportunities he's had. But the last thing we need is a tired pen going into 4 with MLB's best team on their home turf.

Zakath
05-27-2010, 12:47 AM
Pena has actually been solid this year, in the few opportunities he's had. But the last thing we need is a tired pen going into 4 with MLB's best team on their home turf.

Especially when that team just got swept pretty handily by Boston.

october23sp
05-27-2010, 01:28 AM
It's TMI that I took a shower?? seriously?? :scratch:

Same thing I was thinking.

TDog
05-27-2010, 02:54 AM
Here is something to consider that I haven't noticed being discussed in this postgame thread. The Indians didn't score after they sacrificed for the first out in the ninth inning.

The sacrifice came in front of the Indians best hitter, who was intentionally walked. Then came a strikeout and a routine flyout to end the game.

I wonder if Indians fans are debating the merits of sacrificing bunting tonight.

Boondock Saint
05-27-2010, 02:59 AM
Here is something to consider that I haven't noticed being discussed in this postgame thread. The Indians didn't score after they sacrificed for the first out in the ninth inning.

The sacrifice came in front of the Indians best hitter, who was intentionally walked. Then came a strikeout and a routine flyout to end the game.

I wonder if Indians fans are debating the merits of sacrificing bunting tonight.

Well, it's certainly worth mentioning. It's been said on here repeatedly that you don't give a struggling pitcher free outs. The way Bobby has been pitching, he might have walked Crowe, forcing him to pitch to Choo with the bases loaded and nobody out.

BadBobbyJenks
05-27-2010, 05:30 AM
Here is something to consider that I haven't noticed being discussed in this postgame thread. The Indians didn't score after they sacrificed for the first out in the ninth inning.

The sacrifice came in front of the Indians best hitter, who was intentionally walked. Then came a strikeout and a routine flyout to end the game.

I wonder if Indians fans are debating the merits of sacrificing bunting tonight.

Well we were debating it in the game thread and the consensus was we were very happy to see Choo not getting to hit.

TheOldRoman
05-27-2010, 10:06 AM
It's TMI that I took a shower?? seriously?? :scratch: Showering is gross.

Gavin
05-27-2010, 10:50 AM
Well, it's certainly worth mentioning. It's been said on here repeatedly that you don't give a struggling pitcher free outs. The way Bobby has been pitching, he might have walked Crowe, forcing him to pitch to Choo with the bases loaded and nobody out.

I think when you're the home team you do whatever you can to tie the game and then play from there. Getting a runner on 3rd with less than two outs via a sacrifice is the safest way to do this. Of course, personally, I think it's about 50/50 in terms of effectiveness.

Coops4Aces
05-27-2010, 10:59 AM
Bunting in that spot was so stupid and I was grateful that the Indians did it. Free outs with Jenks on the mound are always good if you are a Sox fan.

SI1020
05-27-2010, 11:02 AM
What Acta did was throw Jenks a lifeline at a time when he needed it most.

Gavin
05-27-2010, 11:10 AM
I definitely think it was stupid. He was playing the numbers in a time when you didn't need numbers cause Jenks was throwing meatballs.

SI1020
05-27-2010, 11:13 AM
I definitely think it was stupid. He was playing the numbers in a time when you didn't need numbers cause Jenks was throwing meatballs. I agree. Make Jenks pitch his way out of the jam he created. Don't automatically take the bat out of Choo's hand.

jabrch
05-27-2010, 11:24 AM
For the life of me, I don't understand the dislike for bunting. Move runners, make it easier to score them with the middle of your order and less than two outs. Seems smart to me. If your guys don't execute, that's one thing, but put them in a position to execute the easiest play, not where they need a few things to happen.

soltrain21
05-27-2010, 11:29 AM
For the life of me, I don't understand the dislike for bunting. Move runners, make it easier to score them with the middle of your order and less than two outs. Seems smart to me. If your guys don't execute, that's one thing, but put them in a position to execute the easiest play, not where they need a few things to happen.

Because you open up first base for your best hitter to get walked. You not only take the bat out of the bunter's hand, but you take it out of the person after him, too.

asindc
05-27-2010, 11:37 AM
For the life of me, I don't understand the dislike for bunting. Move runners, make it easier to score them with the middle of your order and less than two outs. Seems smart to me. If your guys don't execute, that's one thing, but put them in a position to execute the easiest play, not where they need a few things to happen.

Normally I would agree with this (and I certainly think professional baseball players should be able to execute a sac bunt), but Jenks was on the ropes and walking Crowe only (predictably) led to the Sox walking Cleveland's best hitter. If I am a Cleveland fan, I would have preferred that Crowe bat to make Jenks prove he could get him out knowing that Choo was on deck.

Coops4Aces
05-27-2010, 11:43 AM
Because you open up first base for your best hitter to get walked. You not only take the bat out of the bunter's hand, but you take it out of the person after him, too.

Bingo. You don't that the bat out of your best hitter's hands especially when the rest of your lineup is brutal. You sacrifice Crowe, Choo and an out just to get a guy from second to third? Maybe if Pujols was backing up Choo, but not Austin Kearns.

kufram
05-27-2010, 01:18 PM
But with the way Jenks was throwing you get a guy on third and he scores on the passed ball. That's the point.

Coops4Aces
05-27-2010, 01:21 PM
But with the way Jenks was throwing you get a guy on third and he scores on the passed ball. That's the point.

What passed ball?

Bruizer
05-27-2010, 01:31 PM
But with the way Jenks was throwing you get a guy on third and he scores on the passed ball. That's the point.

Jenks wasn't wild. He was just ineffective. The five previous batters got on without a single out - why then give an out away to move the tying run to third when he was already in scoring position? I really think the outcome would have been different if Crowe were allowed to hit.

TheOldRoman
05-27-2010, 01:46 PM
But with the way Jenks was throwing you get a guy on third and he scores on the passed ball. That's the point.It could happen, but I agree that when a pitcher shows you that he can't get anybody out that inning (first five guys reached base), you absolutely can't give up a gift out. Even if Choo wasn't coming up it would have been a bad play. Bobby was swimming upstream and they threw him a life preserver.

kufram
05-27-2010, 01:56 PM
All I can say is my confidence didn't improve with 1 out and bases loaded instead of no outs and runners on first and second. Also, not to say I'm big on Bobby right now, but he did get the strikeout and flyout with the game on the line even after being responsible for getting the team into that position.

Craig Grebeck
05-27-2010, 01:56 PM
It could happen, but I agree that when a pitcher shows you that he can't get anybody out that inning (first five guys reached base), you absolutely can't give up a gift out. Even if Choo wasn't coming up it would have been a bad play. Bobby was swimming upstream and they threw him a life preserver.
Absolutely. 2 facts:

1. Outs are precious.
2. Choo is a masher.

Craig Grebeck
05-27-2010, 01:57 PM
All I can say is my confidence didn't improve with 1 out and bases loaded instead of no outs and runners on first and second. Also, not to say I'm big on Bobby right now, but he did get the strikeout and flyout with the game on the line even after being responsible for getting the team into that position.
Great. He still sucked.

TDog
05-27-2010, 04:01 PM
Normally I would agree with this (and I certainly think professional baseball players should be able to execute a sac bunt), but Jenks was on the ropes and walking Crowe only (predictably) led to the Sox walking Cleveland's best hitter. If I am a Cleveland fan, I would have preferred that Crowe bat to make Jenks prove he could get him out knowing that Choo was on deck.

There is no correct answer to the question, but this is the closest to what I believe. In that situation, when you are down by a run with a pitcher who hasn't retired a batter and has allowed three to score to pull your team within one, I don't think you should be bunting runners over to second and third. The tying run already is in scoring position, and you have your best hitters coming up.

Most major league teams would have sacrificed in that situation, though, only considering to do otherwise if they had overwhelming faith in the matchup against the pitcher who hadn't retired anyone. It would be considered the fundamental thing to do. You weren't just putting the tying run at third, you were putting the winning run in scoring position. You wouldn't mind Choo being walked with first base open because you assure yourself of the pressure of a bases loaded one-out situation with Kearns where a fly ball would tie the game, and unless he hits into a doubleplay, you still have Branyan coming up. He's left-handed and already has two hits in the game.

I generally don't like sacrificing, but in that situation, even with Choo coming up, the sacrifice is the percentage play. It was losing baseball for the Indians because they didn't execute. But it was the lack of execution after the sacrifice that cost the Indians. If Crowe had hit into a doubleplay, the Sox probably wouldn't have walked Choo because it goes against the book to put the winning run on base. If Crowe had hit into a fielder's choice, the Sox wouldn't have walked Choo to put the winning run in scoring position.

Maybe the best chance the Indians had to send the game into extra innings or win it was for Crowe to fail in what he was fundamentally supposed to do in his at bat. But if Crowe grounds into a doubleplay or lines into a doubleplay (to Konerko, it would have left first base open and allowed the White Sox to walk Choo) and the next hitter had made the third out, Indians fans would have been demanding to know why Crowe didn't sacrifice.

BadBobbyJenks
05-27-2010, 05:00 PM
For the life of me, I don't understand the dislike for bunting. Move runners, make it easier to score them with the middle of your order and less than two outs. Seems smart to me. If your guys don't execute, that's one thing, but put them in a position to execute the easiest play, not where they need a few things to happen.

I cant imagine the scenario where giving up an out and taking the bat out of your best hitter's hands is ever good strategy.

FielderJones
05-27-2010, 05:00 PM
Maybe the best chance the Indians had to send the game into extra innings or win it was for Crowe to fail in what he was fundamentally supposed to do in his at bat. But if Crowe grounds into a doubleplay or lines into a doubleplay (to Konerko, it would have left first base open and allowed the White Sox to walk Choo) and the next hitter had made the third out, Indians fans would have been demanding to know why Crowe didn't sacrifice.

The bottom line for fans demands is whether the strategic move was a success or a failure, not the percentages. My thoughts are, never give a struggling pitcher a free out, even if it moves a runner to third. But if Kearns hits a sac fly or a base hit, Acta's a genius. Since he struck out, Acta's a moron.

Craig Grebeck
05-27-2010, 05:32 PM
The bottom line for fans demands is whether the strategic move was a success or a failure, not the percentages. My thoughts are, never give a struggling pitcher a free out, even if it moves a runner to third. But if Kearns hits a sac fly or a base hit, Acta's a genius. Since he struck out, Acta's a moron.
I think he's a moron regardless of whether or not Kearns hits a sac fly or a base hit.

TheCommander
05-27-2010, 05:32 PM
I wish I hadn't missed that, it's precisely what I'm looking for. Still I'm surprised with all the baseball knowledge on this board that someone can't come up with an explanation for why Mark's moves weren't balks.

IDK if anyone posted this yet, but here is a good explanation that might help answer your question:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8397485&topic_id=7417714

TDog
05-27-2010, 05:41 PM
The bottom line for fans demands is whether the strategic move was a success or a failure, not the percentages. My thoughts are, never give a struggling pitcher a free out, even if it moves a runner to third. But if Kearns hits a sac fly or a base hit, Acta's a genius. Since he struck out, Acta's a moron.

The manager (unless he's Ted Turner in wingtips) knows more about his team and baseball in general than the fans do. I probably know more about baseball than most fans do, and I disagree with a lot of moves that managers make. Sometimes events prove me wrong, but I won't call a manager an idiot for going with the by-the-book or percentage play. In Wednesday's game, the sacrifice was the percentage play to tie the game. Your chances of tying the game with the bases loaded and one out were greater than with runners on first and second and no one out. Acta knew Choo would be walked. If you're at home and facing a White Sox bullpen that has pitched the majority of their team's innings since Sunday, your chances of winning in extra innings is enhanced. If Jenks can't retire anyone, giving up an out to practically assure a tie would be the percentage move, the conservative move with the least amount of risk. You have to give Jenks credit for making it the wrong move against tougher hitters in a more difficult situation than he faced to open the inning.

I wouldn't call a manager an idiot for making a percentage move that doesn't work. (There are some people who criticize managers for making calling plays and putting together lineups that defy percentages and still end up working, but I don't do that either. Wednesday, I wouldn't have criticized Acta either way, although if I were managing the Indians, I probably wouldn't have had Crowe bunt.) Sometimes managers manage to avoid criticisms by going by the book, and maybe that is something to criticize. But I have no evidence that Acta had Crowe sacrifice because he was knew that the conservative, by-the-book call would result in less criticism if the Indians lost the game.

I most appreciate the fact that this is an academic discussion and not full of the passionate invoking of the language filter had such a move preceded a White Sox loss.

Marqhead
05-27-2010, 09:07 PM
IDK if anyone posted this yet, but here is a good explanation that might help answer your question:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8397485&topic_id=7417714

Thank you kind sir! This helped a ton and now I am satisfied. :D: