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View Full Version : BB Ref: Juan Pierre, singles hitter


vinny
05-25-2010, 02:42 PM
Pierre went 32 games before his first extra-base hit of the season agaist the Twins on May 11. In 2002 he went 30 games before getting his first XBH.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/6332

Rohan
05-25-2010, 02:45 PM
Here's why I don't mind: He leads the league in stolen bases. He compensates for his inability to hit doubles by hitting a single and then being able to steal second to still put himself in scoring position.

Juan Pierre was created to be a lead off hitter. He would be less than ideal hitting anywhere else in the line up.

KMcMahon817
05-25-2010, 02:49 PM
Juan Pierre has been great in May (hitting over .340) and will be at .300 in no time. Sure, he caused a lot of problems early, but he was and still is a good option at lead off. I have absolutely no problems with Juan and I actually thoroughly enjoy watching him at the plate and on the bases.

WhiteSox5187
05-25-2010, 02:53 PM
Here's why I don't mind: He leads the league in stolen bases. He compensates for his inability to hit doubles by hitting a single and then being able to steal second to still put himself in scoring position.

Juan Pierre was created to be a lead off hitter. He would be less than idea hitting anywhere else in the line up.

Indeed, and this is why I think OPS is a misleading stat at times. Pierre has never had an OPS of .800 and in a year like 2003 had an OPS of less than .750, but if you're a leadoff guy and you can get on at a .350 clip and then wind up stealing 35+ bases, you're doing your job and you're doing it quite well.

munchman33
05-25-2010, 03:08 PM
Indeed, and this is why I think OPS is a misleading stat at times. Pierre has never had an OPS of .800 and in a year like 2003 had an OPS of less than .750, but if you're a leadoff guy and you can get on at a .350 clip and then wind up stealing 35+ bases, you're doing your job and you're doing it quite well.

I agree with you, but Juan getting on base at a .350 clip is a bit of a stretch at this point in his career, unless you're choosy with his at bats.

JermaineDye05
05-25-2010, 03:16 PM
Here's why I don't mind: He leads the league in stolen bases. He compensates for his inability to hit doubles by hitting a single and then being able to steal second to still put himself in scoring position.

Juan Pierre was created to be a lead off hitter. He would be less than ideal hitting anywhere else in the line up.

I was just looking up the stats, Rios is sixth in the majors in HR and fourth in SB. Wow.

WhiteSox5187
05-25-2010, 03:21 PM
I agree with you, but Juan getting on base at a .350 clip is a bit of a stretch at this point in his career, unless you're choosy with his at bats.

Well, for May he's been getting on at a .372 clip. I don't think he's going to have a year total of .350 OBP, but that could be because of that .260 OBP for April.

Crede24Thome25
05-25-2010, 03:39 PM
I was just looking up the stats, Rios is sixth in the majors in HR and fourth in SB. Wow.
Rios is a stud, I hope he makes it to Anaheim in July.

WhiteSox5187
05-25-2010, 03:49 PM
I was just looking up the stats, Rios is sixth in the majors in HR and fourth in SB. Wow.

He's a fun player to watch. Those guys with speed and power are rare but I love watching them.

jabrch
05-25-2010, 08:43 PM
Rios is a stud, I hope he makes to Anaheim in July.

That was a big gamble by KW. It sure looks like a GREAT move at this point.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-25-2010, 10:32 PM
That was a big gamble by KW. It sure looks like a GREAT move at this point.

..and how many people wanted KW tarred and feathered after his first half-season with the club?

Now, Rios is by far the best player on the Sox.

TDog
05-26-2010, 02:01 AM
When I first came across the total bases stat at the age of 12 on a Cubs stat sheet in 1969, I thought it included stolen bases as well as extra bases on hits. I learned I was mistaken, but I've come to believe that there are players for whom there should be such a stat that adds stolen bases to total bases. And Juan Pierre is one of those players.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 02:03 AM
When I first came across the total bases stat at the age of 12 on a Cubs stat sheet in 1969, I thought it included stolen bases as well as extra bases on hits. I learned I was mistaken, but I've come to believe that there are players for whom there should be such a stat that adds stolen bases to total bases. And Juan Pierre is one of those players.
Do you think such players should be penalized for caught stealing?

thomas35forever
05-26-2010, 02:04 AM
To hijack this thread for a moment, Teahen would be more productive if he would just drive in some damn runs. Otherwise, he's been decent at the plate.

Boondock Saint
05-26-2010, 02:18 AM
Do you think such players should be penalized for caught stealing?

I don't see how that comes into the equation. If said player gets caught stealing, he doesn't get that extra base. It isn't necessary to penalize him further. At that point, you're getting into sketchy territory. Do you penalize a guy for getting thrown out at the plate from second on a single? How about trying to go first to third? Just add steals to the total bases.

Nellie_Fox
05-26-2010, 02:40 AM
I don't see how that comes into the equation. If said player gets caught stealing, he doesn't get that extra base. It isn't necessary to penalize him further. At that point, you're getting into sketchy territory. Do you penalize a guy for getting thrown out at the plate from second on a single? How about trying to go first to third? Just add steals to the total bases.No, if you're going to claim that a single followed by a steal is the equivalent of a double, then a single followed by a caught stealing is the equivalent of an out in that at-bat. You can't have it both ways.

Craig Grebeck
05-26-2010, 03:11 AM
No, if you're going to claim that a single followed by a steal is the equivalent of a double, then a single followed by a caught stealing is the equivalent of an out in that at-bat. You can't have it both ways.
Agreed.

This is coming from someone who doesn't value total bases, and therefore sees no reason to tack on more to a stat that doesn't say all that much.

Pierre is what he is, and his strong suits can stand on their own.

asindc
05-26-2010, 10:15 AM
No, if you're going to claim that a single followed by a steal is the equivalent of a double, then a single followed by a caught stealing is the equivalent of an out in that at-bat. You can't have it both ways.

I disagree. A stolen base has value in terms of the extra base. I think the thrown out at home analogy is appropriate here. Being thrown out trying to advance a base is the same, whether or not you are attempting to steal the base or advance because of an error or hit when there is no force on. If you are not going to subtract bases in those latter cases, why subtract a base for a caught stealing? Especially when someone who steals bases at a 67% rate is more likely to advance from 1st to 2nd by stealing the base rather than having the batter either make a productive out or get on base (since the DH era began, Big Frank has had the highest OBP in the AL, .487 in 1994. Of course, you would have to factor in the productive outs that did and should have resulted in advancing the base runner, but I seriously doubt that the aggregate total of OBP+productive outs would be more than .670).

If you walk and then get caught stealing, you still had some chance of scoring before the caught stealing, just as you did before getting thrown out trying to advance on an error or hit with no force on. There is 0% chance that a batter can score if he makes an out before reaching base. That is the big distinction between the two.

Oblong
05-26-2010, 02:51 PM
I don't see how that comes into the equation. If said player gets caught stealing, he doesn't get that extra base. It isn't necessary to penalize him further. At that point, you're getting into sketchy territory. Do you penalize a guy for getting thrown out at the plate from second on a single? How about trying to go first to third? Just add steals to the total bases.

But a CS puts your team 1/3 of the way towards the end of the inning. In that sense it's almost the same as just making an out from the AB.

munchman33
05-26-2010, 03:17 PM
But a CS puts your team 1/3 of the way towards the end of the inning. In that sense it's almost the same as just making an out from the AB.

A runner on first attempting steals also alters the way the batter is pitched to. The pitcher pitches out of the stretch and may even pitch out. Even if there's a CS, the batter is usually in a better position than he would have been had there been no one on base.

TDog
05-26-2010, 09:52 PM
Do you think such players should be penalized for caught stealing?

Honestly, I've never thought of that, but I've never tried to come up with a statistical formula that includes stolen bases in a player's offensive success. I was thinking mainly of Rickey Henderson, and how announcers used to say that walking him was like giving up a double. I also hadn't thought of subtracting a total base when a player is doubled off a base while attempting to steal while the hitter is lining out or when a player gets thrown out trying to go from first to third on a single.

Of course, if a hitter is leading off an inning and gets a single and is thrown out trying to stretch it into a double, it is not any different than if he had fouled out to the catcher.

Statistics are deceptive enough as it is.

Oblong
05-26-2010, 11:14 PM
A runner on first attempting steals also alters the way the batter is pitched to. The pitcher pitches out of the stretch and may even pitch out. Even if there's a CS, the batter is usually in a better position than he would have been had there been no one on base.

I'm not arguing against the value of a stolen base threat, only that a CS is something you shouldn't penalize a player for. You only get 3 outs.

MisterB
05-27-2010, 12:36 AM
If we're dealing with something as simple as total bases or slugging percentage, it doesn't really make a difference.

Just like the example of getting thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double: you still get credit for the single. If you can take an extra base without the next batter having to advance you, why not get credit for it?

If you're using a linear weighting system, then by all means penalize for the CS.