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View Full Version : Kenny's Clubhouse Meeting and What it Might Hold for the Future


WhiteSox5187
05-20-2010, 03:33 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/05/gm-williams-to-sox-focus-on-wins-not-rumors.html

I haven't seen a thread on this, but as I'm sure most people know Kenny visited the clubhouse yesterday and told them to not give up on themselves etc. Now, maybe it is just me, but this is not only a move that reeks of desperation, but also sounds like a guy who almost pleading for his job. I always figured that Ozzie's job might be in trouble and I'm sure that Ozzie has had his share of clubhouse meetings with the guys, but for Kenny to come down and plead with the team not to give up on themselves seems to me to be a move made by a guy who thinks his future is tied up with this team.

What do you think?

kittle42
05-20-2010, 03:37 PM
Ozzie has said the team's problems are mental. I always thought that was a bunch of crap, but maybe these guys *are* generally a bunch of Debbie Downers.

That would really suck.

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-20-2010, 03:42 PM
I can guess, but I'd be wrong. I wasn't there.

Nothing wrong with trying to pep talk people during tough times. If you've been fortunate enough to remain employed during this recent economic rut, you know what I'm talking about. I've tried to enthuse my staff while things weren't the brightest - gotta keep believing in what you're doing. Not saying changes won't be made, but there's nothing wrong with trying to install some good karma.

WhiteSox5187
05-20-2010, 03:44 PM
Ozzie has said the team's problems are mental. I always thought that was a bunch of crap, but maybe these guys *are* generally a bunch of Debbie Downers.

That would really suck.

Are you implying they are not "Chicago tough?"

khan
05-21-2010, 02:49 PM
Maybe KW should have gotten more grindy grinders like Teahen and Kotsay.

THOSE guys are "Chicago Tough."

LoveYourSuit
05-21-2010, 03:00 PM
I think it has more to do with guys being worried about being traded this early, like AJ.

But I would not mind Kenny being on the hot seat also.

I have backed this guy up for a very long time and blamed Ozzie for all the on-field issues but at some point it has to fall back on the GM.

Both Ozzie and Kenny suck.

khan
05-21-2010, 03:06 PM
Both Ozzie and Kenny suck.
You'd better stay out of White Sox business.

Besides, Kenny will concoct another trade where useful parts will be given away for pieces of ****.

Like the Pierre trade.
And the Pena trade.
And the Swisher trades.
And the Vazquez trades.

LoveYourSuit
05-21-2010, 04:01 PM
You'd better stay out of White Sox business.

Besides, Kenny will concoct another trade where useful parts will be given away for pieces of ****.

Like the Pierre trade.
And the Pena trade.
And the Swisher trades.
And the Vazquez trades.


Kenny's moves the last 2-3 season have not provided too many good results, even worse they have handcuffed the team financialy.

WhiteSox5187
05-21-2010, 05:04 PM
Kenny's moves the last 2-3 season have not provided too many good results, even worse they have handcuffed the team financialy.

Really the only move that I think has a long term finicial impact (other than us re-signing guys like Konerko and Buerhle) is the Peavy trade and I have no problem with that. With Kenny though it's really hit or miss and when he hits, he hits big. When he misses, he misses big. It seems like he is always trying to catch lightening in a bottle, I'm not sure if that's because that's how he likes to do things or if it's because of Jerry. After reading Lip's comments in another post about our aversion to spend money on draft (specifically Jerry not liking to spend money on the draft) and our aversion to spending money on premier free agents, I am very worried about the long term health of this club.

dickallen15
05-21-2010, 06:09 PM
You'd better stay out of White Sox business.

Besides, Kenny will concoct another trade where useful parts will be given away for pieces of ****.

Like the Pierre trade.
And the Pena trade.
And the Swisher trades.
And the Vazquez trades.

The Pena trade was fine. Although guys who are hitting .216 in AAA would fit right in with the White Sox. For some reason I don't think if the Sox currently had Gio Gonzalez or Ryan Sweeney or Nick Swisher or John Ely or Brandon Allen they would be much better off than they are right now anyway.

TDog
05-21-2010, 06:35 PM
You'd better stay out of White Sox business.

Besides, Kenny will concoct another trade where useful parts will be given away for pieces of ****.

Like the Pierre trade.
And the Pena trade.
And the Swisher trades.
And the Vazquez trades.

There was nothing wrong with the Pierre trade. There was nothing wrong with the Pena trade. There was nothing wrong with the Vazquez trades, and there was nothing wrong with the second Swisher trade.

In an alternate universe where those trades never took place, you would be complaining about something else because the White Sox are better off for most of those deals, and the first Nick Swisher deal didn't hurt the franchise in any way other than creating a need to get Nick Swisher and his salary off of the White Sox..

DrCrawdad
05-21-2010, 08:08 PM
There was nothing wrong with the Pierre trade. There was nothing wrong with the Pena trade. There was nothing wrong with the Vazquez trades, and there was nothing wrong with the second Swisher trade.

In an alternate universe where those trades never took place, you would be complaining about something else because the White Sox are better off for most of those deals, and the first Nick Swisher deal didn't hurt the franchise in any way other than creating a need to get Nick Swisher and his salary off of the White Sox..

I don't have any problem trading players and/or prospects. I don't have a problem trading any of the guys the Sox traded away but what I do have a problem with is what we gave up vs. what we got. Consider the Swisher trade...

The Sox sent de Los Santos (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=501745) (a top prospect at that time), Gio Gonzalez (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8179) and Ryan Sweeney (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7858). Then after one flop of a year the Sox sent Swisher (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7435) to the Yankees for Jhonny Nunez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=471919), Jeff Marquez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457812) and Kanekoa Texeira (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=444427).

So at least at this point the Sox traded 3 current major leaguers for 3 minor league players. Maybe Nunez, Marquez and Texeira will contribute in some way in the future but at this point the Sox have NOTHING on the major league roster contributing. Meanwhile, 3 of the 4 players who the Sox traded away are contributing right now on the Major League level.

How did the Swisher deals help the Sox? I'd maintain that, at least now, they did nothing to help the Sox and hurt the Sox by blowing players that could perhaps have been useful on our team or have been useful in a productive trade.

canOcorn
05-21-2010, 08:08 PM
You'd better stay out of White Sox business.

Besides, Kenny will concoct another trade where useful parts will be given away for pieces of ****.

Like the Pierre trade.
And the Pena trade.
And the Swisher trades.
And the Vazquez trades.

Yep, overpaid for Pierre.

Yep, Pena sucks and Allen would've brought a better return.

Yep, first Swisher trade was bad, considering what everyone thought of their potential. Second trade is absolutely embarrassing.

I can live with the first Vazquez trade. The jury is still out on the second. I have doubts whether Flowers will stay behind the plate and his bat doesn't play at 1B or DH.

Brian26
05-21-2010, 08:13 PM
Yep, first Swisher trade was bad, considering what everyone thought of their potential. Second trade is absolutely embarrassing.

You're not taking into account the Swisher contract. The Sox paid to get out from under that ludicrous contract for a guy that hit .200 on the season.

canOcorn
05-21-2010, 08:17 PM
You're not taking into account the Swisher contract. The Sox paid to get out from under that ludicrous contract for a guy that hit .200 on the season.

There was no reason to think 2008 wasn't a complete outlier season for Swisher. Then the contract is fine. Swisher would be our #2 offensive player this season.

DrCrawdad
05-21-2010, 08:21 PM
There was no reason to think 2008 wasn't a complete outlier season for Swisher. Then the contract is fine. Swisher would be our #2 offensive player this season.

Swisher wasn't helped either by how Ozzie and the Sox used him. They had him batting lead-off and playing CF. Swisher isn't a good CF and neither is he a lead-off hitter.

TDog
05-21-2010, 08:32 PM
I don't have any problem trading players and/or prospects. I don't have a problem trading any of the guys the Sox traded away but what I do have a problem with is what we gave up vs. what we got. Consider the Swisher trade...

The Sox sent de Los Santos (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=501745) (a top prospect at that time), Gio Gonzalez (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8179) and Ryan Sweeney (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7858). Then after one flop of a year the Sox sent Swisher (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7435) to the Yankees for Jhonny Nunez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=471919), Jeff Marquez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457812) and Kanekoa Texeira (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=444427).

So at least at this point the Sox traded 3 current major leaguers for 3 minor league players. Maybe Nunez, Marquez and Texeira will contribute in some way in the future but at this point the Sox have NOTHING on the major league roster contributing. Meanwhile, 3 of the 4 players who the Sox traded away are contributing right now on the Major League level.

How did the Swisher deals help the Sox? I'd maintain that, at least now, they did nothing to help the Sox and hurt the Sox by blowing players that could perhaps have been useful on our team or have been useful in a productive trade.

The Swisher trade wasn't going to help the White Sox, but the players they gave up for Swisher (except, perhaps, Sweeney) weren't going to help the White Sox. The players the White Sox got for Sweeney when they dumped him to improve the team haven't helped the White Sox.

Gonzalez was trade fodder. He wasn't going to crack the White Sox starting rotation. Even this year he wouldn't be starting for the Sox. De Los Santos showed some low minor league promise, but it hardly made him a valuable trade commodity. As it is, he has never pitched above Class A, and he has pitched less than 4 innings this year for the last place Stockton Ports.

Maybe there are people who post here who could have gotten more than Nick Swisher out of the package the White Sox sent to the A's. I certainly wouldn't have made the deal and I posted as much at the time. But the problem with the trade had nothing to do with what the Sox gave up.

canOcorn
05-21-2010, 08:38 PM
The Swisher trade wasn't going to help the White Sox, but the players they gave up for Swisher (except, perhaps, Sweeney) weren't going to help the White Sox. The players the White Sox got for Sweeney when they dumped him to improve the team haven't helped the White Sox.

Gonzalez was trade fodder. He wasn't going to crack the White Sox starting rotation. Even this year he wouldn't be starting for the Sox. De Los Santos showed some low minor league promise, but it hardly made him a valuable trade commodity. As it is, he has never pitched above Class A, and he has pitched less than 4 innings this year for the last place Stockton Ports.

Maybe there are people who post here who could have gotten more than Nick Swisher out of the package the White Sox sent to the A's. I certainly wouldn't have made the deal and I posted as much at the time. But the problem with the trade had nothing to do with what the Sox gave up.

Are you suggesting that DLS, Gio and Sweeney didn't have any value on the trade market? I hope not.

DrCrawdad
05-21-2010, 08:52 PM
The Swisher trade wasn't going to help the White Sox, but the players they gave up for Swisher (except, perhaps, Sweeney) weren't going to help the White Sox. The players the White Sox got for Sweeney when they dumped him to improve the team haven't helped the White Sox.

Gonzalez was trade fodder. He wasn't going to crack the White Sox starting rotation. Even this year he wouldn't be starting for the Sox. De Los Santos showed some low minor league promise, but it hardly made him a valuable trade commodity. As it is, he has never pitched above Class A, and he has pitched less than 4 innings this year for the last place Stockton Ports.

Maybe there are people who post here who could have gotten more than Nick Swisher out of the package the White Sox sent to the A's. I certainly wouldn't have made the deal and I posted as much at the time. But the problem with the trade had nothing to do with what the Sox gave up.

I'd take Sweeney in LF or RF this season on the Sox. Heck, Sweeney at this point this season might be on par with Rios in CF. Wonder if Sweeney could play all 3 OF positions at once?

The Sox gave up too much for too little and at this point have NOTHING in return. That's the trouble I have with the Pierre trade, with the Javy trade & with the Teahen trade.

Scottiehaswheels
05-21-2010, 09:12 PM
You're not taking into account the Swisher contract. The Sox paid to get out from under that ludicrous contract for a guy that hit .200 on the season.I can't wait to see what we get for our entire roster this offseason!

dickallen15
05-21-2010, 09:34 PM
Swisher wasn't helped either by how Ozzie and the Sox used him. They had him batting lead-off and playing CF. Swisher isn't a good CF and neither is he a lead-off hitter.

Yet he had a .354 OBP as a leadoff hitter, his best at any spot he had many AB in and had an OPS as a CF about 100 pts. higher than he did at any other postion. The guy hit .176 as a RF. .243 as a CF with an OPS over .800.

DrCrawdad
05-21-2010, 10:24 PM
Yet he had a .354 OBP as a leadoff hitter, his best at any spot he had many AB in and had an OPS as a CF about 100 pts. higher than he did at any other postion. The guy hit .176 as a RF. .243 as a CF with an OPS over .800.

Interesting points. I'd still maintain that the Sox shuffling him around the OF, 1B and DH and shuffling him around the batting order was not beneficial to Swisher. Look at him now, he plays LF just about everyday (not sure about his spot in the lineup) and he's successful.

Setting that aside we lost on Swisher in two trades. Nice. I'd like for a change to dump our trash and get something worthwhile for a refreshing change.

TDog
05-21-2010, 10:25 PM
Are you suggesting that DLS, Gio and Sweeney didn't have any value on the trade market? I hope not.

Gonzalez has been traded several times in his career and has never gotten much back in return. I am suggesting that the value Gonzalez and DLS held in the trade market was exaggerated at WSI as well as the Chicago media.

Nether was ever considered a can't-miss prospect.

I believe Sweeney would have been better in center than Swisher, who was acquired to play center for the Sox after they couldn't get a centerfielder in the free-agent market. But I don't believe anyone here would have been happy with Sweeney as the Sox starting centerfielder in 2008.

Frater Perdurabo
05-21-2010, 10:34 PM
But I don't believe anyone here would have been happy with Sweeney as the Sox starting centerfielder in 2008.

Fair enough. But none of us were happy with Swisher as the starting CF by the end of April 2008.

And for this year, it would have been nice to go into this season with a Jones/Sweeney platoon in RF. Without the money spent on Pierre and Kotsay, the Sox probably could have signed Damon, who in turn could have shared LF/DH duties with Quentin. Moreover, the Sox still would have had Ely and Gio to augment the bullpen, which might have prevented the Allen for Pena trade, and thus the Sox would now have a decent LH successor to Paulie for 2011.

A. Cavatica
05-21-2010, 10:40 PM
The Sox sent de Los Santos (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=501745) (a top prospect at that time), Gio Gonzalez (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8179) and Ryan Sweeney (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7858). Then after one flop of a year the Sox sent Swisher (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7435) to the Yankees for Jhonny Nunez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=471919), Jeff Marquez (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457812) and Kanekoa Texeira (http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=444427).


Doc, you've got that wrong...Texeira went with Swisher to the Yankees for Nunez, Marquez, and Betemit. And Texeira is now a useful part of the Mariners' bullpen (16 innings, 3.94 ERA). :o:

WhiteSox5187
05-21-2010, 10:44 PM
There was no reason to think 2008 wasn't a complete outlier season for Swisher. Then the contract is fine. Swisher would be our #2 offensive player this season.

The entire outlook of what contracts were good and which ones were bad changed almost over night in the 2008 off season. Swisher went from having a very good contract to having a very bad contract almost over night. He made 5.4 million in 2009 which is a lot of money for a guy coming off a year where he hit .219.

TDog
05-21-2010, 10:45 PM
Fair enough. But none of us were happy with Swisher as the starting CF by the end of April 2008.

And for this year, it would have been nice to go into this season with a Jones/Sweeney platoon in RF. Without the money spent on Pierre and Kotsay, the Sox probably could have signed Damon, who in turn could have shared LF/DH duties with Quentin. Moreover, the Sox still would have had Ely and Gio to augment the bullpen, which might have prevented the Allen for Pena trade, and thus the Sox would now have a decent LH successor to Paulie for 2011.

This year really isn't relevant to the discussion. The White Sox needed a centerfielder in 2008. They didn't get Hunter. They didn't get Rowand. They got Swisher, and I was upset about it in January.

Gonzalez would have been traded long ago if he hadn't been traded with others for Swisher.

DrCrawdad
05-21-2010, 10:49 PM
Doc, you've got that wrong...Texeira went with Swisher to the Yankees for Nunez, Marquez, and Betemit. And Texeira is now a useful part of the Mariners' bullpen (16 innings, 3.94 ERA). :o:

You're right! (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8701) It's even worser, no worsest.

Tragg
05-21-2010, 11:41 PM
The Swisher trade wasn't going to help the White Sox, but the players they gave up for Swisher (except, perhaps, Sweeney) weren't going to help the White Sox. The players the White Sox got for Sweeney when they dumped him to improve the team haven't helped the White Sox.

That's complete Bull****
Gio can pitch. Sweeney is better than Juan Pierre...and cheaper.
And those players could have been used to trade for someone else that we could have used.

Squandering prospects must be viewed on its own.
In return for Swisher, Williams took back players with extremely low ceiling. Utility talent and AAAA pitchers and zero real prospects. yet, when he traded for Pierre, he gave prospects.

There was nothing wrong with the Pierre trade. There was nothing wrong with the Pena trade. There was nothing wrong with the Vazquez trades, and there was nothing wrong with the second Swisher trade.

"Nothing wrong" doesn't win titles.

There was a lot wrong with the 2nd Swisher trade and arguably the Vazuez trade (got only 1 real prospect and had to throw in logan)

Frontman
05-22-2010, 07:37 AM
You're not taking into account the Swisher contract. The Sox paid to get out from under that ludicrous contract for a guy that hit .200 on the season.


Shhhh. Don't bring things like facts into a discussion. It confuses the haters.

khan
05-22-2010, 01:44 PM
The Pena trade was fine. Although guys who are hitting .216 in AAA would fit right in with the White Sox. For some reason I don't think if the Sox currently had Gio Gonzalez or Ryan Sweeney or Nick Swisher or John Ely or Brandon Allen they would be much better off than they are right now anyway.

After giving it time to ferment, I've come to the conclusion that Pena is garbage. His K:BB ratio belies everything else that he does. Allen, at the very least, has a future.

Regardless of what Gio Gonzalez or Ryan Sweeney are right now, they represent wasted VALUE to the organization.

And the Nick Swisher trades violate the basic concept of buying low and selling high. KW did the exact opposite with Swisher.

khan
05-22-2010, 01:53 PM
There was nothing wrong with the Pierre trade.
I disagree. When you consider that the big league roster is AGING, and that there were/are very few assets in the minor league system, the Pierre trade was inefficient, for a number of reasons.

In the case of finding Ozzie's coveted speedy player to hit first:

GIVEN the overall condition of the MLB club and the minor league system, KW would have been better served to sign a free agent. Thus, preserving minor league assets, and keeping the minor leagues better-positioned.

There was nothing wrong with the Pena trade.
Trades are about getting value-for-value. Given what Allen could be, and what Pena could be, this was a bad waste of resources.

There was nothing wrong with the Vazquez trades, and there was nothing wrong with the second Swisher trade.
In both of these cases, KW failed to get even ONE MLB player. There might be a "maybe" in the form of Flowers. But note that Atlanta got TWO MLB players for an older Vazquez than what KW got.

For Swisher, he gave away TWO MLB players [Swisher AND Teixeira(sp?)], and got nothing.

These trades represent MORE wasted value to the organization.

In an alternate universe where those trades never took place, you would be complaining about something else because the White Sox are better off for most of those deals, and the first Nick Swisher deal didn't hurt the franchise in any way other than creating a need to get Nick Swisher and his salary off of the White Sox..
This may be. But again, the Swisher trades were to buy high, and sell low. KW got PANTSED in both transactions.

Also, in what way are the SOX better off? They gave away a collective 3 MLB-quality players, and got ZERO in return. KW GAVE AWAY value, in an organization that has little to spare.

dickallen15
05-22-2010, 01:59 PM
After giving it time to ferment, I've come to the conclusion that Pena is garbage. His K:BB ratio belies everything else that he does. Allen, at the very least, has a future.

Regardless of what Gio Gonzalez or Ryan Sweeney are right now, they represent wasted VALUE to the organization.

And the Nick Swisher trades violate the basic concept of buying low and selling high. KW did the exact opposite with Swisher.

I fail to see how you can say Pena is garbage but a guy hitting .216 in AAA has a future.

khan
05-22-2010, 02:05 PM
I fail to see how you can say Pena is garbage but a guy hitting .216 in AAA has a future.

Sample size. Allen hit very well in Reno last year, and he hit very well throughout his minor league career.

Pena, OTOH, should be in his prime. He's pretty much going to be what he is.

Guys who had a 1.53 WHIP [in the crappy NL, mind you] shouldn't be worth one of your organization's better prospects. Guys [like pena] who had a .295 BAA [in the ****ty NL, mind you] can be had much more cheaply. He's actually out-performing some of his career averages in this season, so one would anticipate him regressing somewhat this year. Look for his WHIP to crappify as the season progresses.

Looking at Pena's career numbers, he's not going to get better. Allen MIGHT, or he might not.

DrCrawdad
05-22-2010, 06:02 PM
Gio Gonzalez has retired 20 straight Giants hitters. As a result Gio's ERA has lowered to 3.46. Clearly Gio sucks and has no value...

TDog
05-22-2010, 06:16 PM
Gio Gonzalez has retired 20 straight Giants hitters. As a result Gio's ERA has lowered to 3.46. Clearly Gio sucks and has no value...


This is the third season Gio Gonzalez has been up and down with the A's, thanks in part to the fact that the A's trade away veteran pitchers. He has looked horrible during most of that time. Today was the first game in his career that he has gone more than seven innings.

Nick Swisher won more games with his bat in one miserable season than Gio Gonzalez has with his arms in more than two seasons with the A's.

WhiteSox5187
05-22-2010, 06:24 PM
This is the third season Gio Gonzalez has been up and down with the A's, thanks in part to the fact that the A's trade away veteran pitchers. He has looked horrible during most of that time. Today was the first game in his career that he has gone more than seven innings.

Nick Swisher won more games with his bat in one miserable season than Gio Gonzalez has with his arms in more than two seasons with the A's.

The kid is a 24 year old hard throwing lefty. He has more value now than Swisher has and could wind up contributing to a lot more success than Swisher.

Malgar 12
05-22-2010, 06:37 PM
Every GM is going to make some bad trades. Although some of the one's mentioned are dubious, (Especially the 2nd Swisher trade) none indicate the Kenny is incompetent.

Plus he's made many good trades. Borchard for Thornton comes to mind! :D:

TDog
05-22-2010, 06:54 PM
The kid is a 24 year old hard throwing lefty. He has more value now than Swisher has and could wind up contributing to a lot more success than Swisher.

You obviously don't watch Gonzalez pitch much.

I wouldn't want either Gonzalez or Swisher on my team though. And, really, there are very few teams who would have hung on to Gonzalez after what he brought to the A's organization the last two years. He only made the team out of spring training this year because Vin Mazzaro began the season on the disabled list.

But saying that because he has pitched a couple good games this year (take away his two best games and he has an ERA over 5 in his seven other games) he the White Sox were stupid to trade him three years ago is, of course, ridiculous.

It's Dankerific
05-22-2010, 07:02 PM
You obviously don't watch Gonzalez pitch much.

I wouldn't want either Gonzalez or Swisher on my team though. And, really, there are very few teams who would have hung on to Gonzalez after what he brought to the A's organization the last two years. He only made the team out of spring training this year because Vin Mazzaro began the season on the disabled list.

But saying that because he has pitched a couple good games this year (take away his two best games and he has an ERA over 5 in his seven other games) he the White Sox were stupid to trade him three years ago is, of course, ridiculous.

were stupid to trade him FOR SWISHER.

thats the whole point.

TDog
05-22-2010, 07:36 PM
were stupid to trade him FOR SWISHER.

thats the whole point.


I won't argue that the White Sox relied too much on a favorable reading of Nick Swisher's statistics. The A's had him on the block and got as much as they could get for him after signing him to an unfortunate contract. The White Sox should have traded for someone else. They might have traded Gonzalez for Rajai Davis, who the Giants were going to put on waivers anyway.

But the idea that Gonzalez had a lot of trade value has little connection with reality.

The only thing Kenny Williams did right with Swisher was managing to dump him to another team that would assume his outrageous contract.

Domeshot17
05-22-2010, 08:15 PM
I won't argue that the White Sox relied too much on a favorable reading of Nick Swisher's statistics. The A's had him on the block and got as much as they could get for him after signing him to an unfortunate contract. The White Sox should have traded for someone else. They might have traded Gonzalez for Rajai Davis, who the Giants were going to put on waivers anyway.

But the idea that Gonzalez had a lot of trade value has little connection with reality.

The only thing Kenny Williams did right with Swisher was managing to dump him to another team that would assume his outrageous contract.

Are you nuts???? To give you an idea on the relative value of what we gave up...we gave up more for NICK SWISHER than we did for Jake Peavy! DLS at the time was I believe a top 40 top 50 MLB prospect with major value and Gio was top 75. Sweeney was in the top 150.

Both of those guys had more value than Poreda at the time. That package, if not blown on Swisher, could have landed someone huge during the season. There is just no denying Kenny got ripped off twice for Swisher.

Ranger
05-22-2010, 08:17 PM
Do people really think that a GM is never going to make a deal where he trades away an eventual good major league player? It happens, and if it doesn't, then your GM isn't doing anything.

You cannot argue that Kenny has traded away a lot of talent that has come back to hurt him. He hits more than he misses.

Daver
05-22-2010, 08:19 PM
The argument can be made that minor league pitching has little to no value, because the failure rate is over 90%.

Brian26
05-22-2010, 08:28 PM
Do people really think that a GM is never going to make a deal where he trades away an eventual good major league player? It happens, and if it doesn't, then your GM isn't doing anything.

You cannot argue that Kenny has traded away a lot of talent that has come back to hurt him. He hits more than he misses.

Amen.

Kenny lost the first Swisher deal. If you're going to complain about that in hindsight, then you need to look at his record over the last nine seasons and give credit where it is due. Rank the talent he gave up for Freddy Garcia. There were more people balking about Jeremy Reed and Olivo the day after that trade in June of '04 than people complaining about Gio, Sweeney and DLS today. I'm not going to crucify him over one trade (Swisher), and I still give him credit for having the balls to ship the contract out of here after one season when it was clear things weren't going to work.

TDog
05-22-2010, 08:32 PM
Are you nuts???? To give you an idea on the relative value of what we gave up...we gave up more for NICK SWISHER than we did for Jake Peavy! DLS at the time was I believe a top 40 top 50 MLB prospect with major value and Gio was top 75. Sweeney was in the top 150.

Both of those guys had more value than Poreda at the time. That package, if not blown on Swisher, could have landed someone huge during the season. There is just no denying Kenny got ripped off twice for Swisher.

No, I am not nuts. People here exaggerate the trade value Gonzalez and DLS had before the 2008 season.

Swisher turned out to be a bust. Keeping him would have hurt the team more than finding someone else to pay his contract.

Tragg
05-22-2010, 08:54 PM
Do people really think that a GM is never going to make a deal where he trades away an eventual good major league player? It happens, and if it doesn't, then your GM isn't doing anything.

You cannot argue that Kenny has traded away a lot of talent that has come back to hurt him. He hits more than he misses.

He's paid to hit a LOT more than he misses.

Ranger
05-22-2010, 09:47 PM
He's paid to hit a LOT more than he misses.

And so then he's earning his paycheck.

khan
05-23-2010, 12:34 PM
I don't know if KW hits more than he misses anymore, in trades. At least lately, I can't remember a trade that KW completed that was a "hit."

Was Pena a hit?
Was Pierre a hit?
Was Mark Teahen, his obese contract, his crappy glove, and his 8 RBI a "hit?"
Was Wilson Betemit a "hit?"

In my view, none of these were "hits."

KW has given away significant amounts of value, with little to nothing to show for it in return. And lately, he seems to have done this, when he would've been better served to NOT give away value.

SI1020
05-23-2010, 01:02 PM
In my view KW has been streaky good and bad during his time as GM. I don't have to tell you what I think he has been lately. Hopefully we can salvage this season somewhat (which would be a winning record for me) and then he can go on one of his hot streaks again. I doubt his boss would ever fire him.

SI1020
05-23-2010, 01:14 PM
You obviously don't watch Gonzalez pitch much.
People argued the same thing about Floyd and Danks. Sometimes you've just got to hang with a young pitcher. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Gonzalez ends up having a decent career.

TDog
05-23-2010, 02:51 PM
People argued the same thing about Floyd and Danks. Sometimes you've just got to hang with a young pitcher. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Gonzalez ends up having a decent career.

Floyd had a major league complete game shutout before he was traded for the White Sox. (It required Aaron Rowand to break his nose catching a deep drive to center, and it was shortened by rain, but it added to his value.) Danks had less value than Brandon McCarthy (Danks was one of three players who went to the Sox for McCarthy and a minor leaguer) when he was traded to the White Sox, and McCarthy was 7-9 with an ERA of 4.39 as a major leaguer. It was essentially a trade of pitchers (McCarthy for Danks and Massett) of pitchers their teams didn't believe in as much as the pitchers they were getting back.

The White Sox didn't hang on to McCarthy and wait for him to develop. The Rangers didn't hang on to Danks and wait for him to develop. The Phillies didn't hang on to Floyd or Gio Gonzalez to wait for him to develop.

Complain about the Sox trading away young pitchers who find a little bit of success years later because you didn't have to live with all the failure that preceded it. There are rippling consequences to hanging on to pitchers to waiting for them to develop. Gonzalez didn't have a future in the starting rotation for the White Sox barring a trade of Danks or Buehrle. He likely would have been disastrous coming out of the bullpen many times over the past two years, judging from his lack of consistency as a starter.

Developing pitchers can be a crap shoot. But there are very few organizations who have the philosophy of trading away most of their most successful starters that creates the patience to let Gonzalez develop.

DrCrawdad
05-23-2010, 03:31 PM
The White Sox didn't hang on to McCarthy and wait for him to develop. The Rangers didn't hang on to Danks and wait for him to develop. The Phillies didn't hang on to Floyd or Gio Gonzalez to wait for him to develop.

Complain about the Sox trading away young pitchers who find a little bit of success years later because you didn't have to live with all the failure that preceded it. There are rippling consequences to hanging on to pitchers to waiting for them to develop. Gonzalez didn't have a future in the starting rotation for the White Sox barring a trade of Danks or Buehrle. He likely would have been disastrous coming out of the bullpen many times over the past two years, judging from his lack of consistency as a starter.

Developing pitchers can be a crap shoot. But there are very few organizations who have the philosophy of trading away most of their most successful starters that creates the patience to let Gonzalez develop.

I have not argued against trading Gio, Ely or the other (former) Sox prospects. I'm all of trading prospects but so long as we get something in return. I've said this 4 or 5 times here. The problem with the Swisher trades is we got NOTHING in return. Sure KW had reasons to dump Swisher after '08, but again the Sox got NOTHING in return AND threw in another pitcher on top of it.

The Freddie Garcia trade was a good example of a trade of prospects that worked out great. The Swisher trade is one where the Sox got ripped off twice. One because the Sox were hungry and the other because the Sox were sick.

The next time we trade 3 of our top pitching prospects, I want more than Nick Swisher. The next time we dump a player, I want something of value in return. Not give up 2 get back crap.

Daver
05-23-2010, 03:54 PM
I have not argued against trading Gio, Ely or the other (former) Sox prospects. I'm all of trading prospects but so long as we get something in return. I've said this 4 or 5 times here. The problem with the Swisher trades is we got NOTHING in return. Sure KW had reasons to dump Swisher after '08, but again the Sox got NOTHING in return AND threw in another pitcher on top of it.

The Freddie Garcia trade was a good example of a trade of prospects that worked out great. The Swisher trade is one where the Sox got ripped off twice. One because the Sox were hungry and the other because the Sox were sick.

The next time we trade 3 of our top pitching prospects, I want more than Nick Swisher. The next time we dump a player, I want something of value in return. Not give up 2 get back crap.

When you are buying proven talent with pitching prospects you have to spend a lot of them to get anything in return.

dickallen15
05-23-2010, 04:15 PM
I have not argued against trading Gio, Ely or the other (former) Sox prospects. I'm all of trading prospects but so long as we get something in return. I've said this 4 or 5 times here. The problem with the Swisher trades is we got NOTHING in return. Sure KW had reasons to dump Swisher after '08, but again the Sox got NOTHING in return AND threw in another pitcher on top of it.

The Freddie Garcia trade was a good example of a trade of prospects that worked out great. The Swisher trade is one where the Sox got ripped off twice. One because the Sox were hungry and the other because the Sox were sick.

The next time we trade 3 of our top pitching prospects, I want more than Nick Swisher. The next time we dump a player, I want something of value in return. Not give up 2 get back crap.

They sent 3 pitchers to SD for Peavy. Last night was a good night to be a former White Sox farmhand. Gio, Ely and Richard all won. The White Sox will argue trading Swisher allowed them to sign Viciedo. We will see how he turns out.

TDog
05-23-2010, 04:59 PM
..
The next time we trade 3 of our top pitching prospects, I want more than Nick Swisher. The next time we dump a player, I want something of value in return. Not give up 2 get back crap.

Before the White Sox traded for Swisher, fans believed Swisher (and sadly, White Sox management) believed he was not crap because they placed too much importance on his on-base percentage. Management also believe that he had a favorable contract because they weren't paying attention to the reasons the A's had him on the block. The team used Swisher in promotions. Fans bought Swisher gear before he ever played a game. If Swisher had been the player fans expected, they wouldn't have overpaid for him.

I'm not arguing that the White Sox made a good move in trading for Swisher. I argued here before he ever played a game with the Sox that I thought acquiring him would have been a bad move regardless of who the White Sox gave up for him.

However, to say that Gio Gonzalez and DLS had exceptional trade value is incorrect. If the White Sox got what they were expecting (I blame a lack of scouting and over-reliance on deceptive statistics), if the White Sox had acquired the player fans, independent of team promotion, believed him to be, because very few White Sox fans watch many Oakland A's games, there would have been nothing wrong with the trade.

There were people who opposed the deal, certainly. But if you believed Swisher would be a good player for the Sox, you had no reason to complain about the deal at the time because Gonzalez and DLS didn't have great trade value, just as Matt Thornton didn't have great trade value for the Mariners when they traded him to the White Sox for Joe Borchard.

When the Sox needed to get rid of Swisher, it would have hurt them more to wait in vain for a package similar to the one they gave up for him, his flaws having been exposed playing in Chicago.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2010, 08:56 PM
If Swisher had been the player fans expected, they wouldn't have overpaid for him.

Swisher was probably the wrong fit for the team, was counted on to do too much (lead off and play center field), and made things worse by performing poorly.

We can only judge trades by the results. I think the two Swisher trades might have caused serious long-term harm to this organization.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2010, 09:01 PM
KW has three options to get out of the current predicament:

1. Increase payroll to buy his way out of the current predicament;

2. Invest more resources into the draft, scouting and player development;

3. Make some trades that he can win.

Due to the self-imposed budget, #1 is not an option. Due to the need to sell tickets, relying solely on #2 while the major league team sucks is not an option. Given KW's history as a deal maker, he almost certainly will try #3. We just have to hope he can pull another Garcia or Danks kind of trade to acquire some solid position players (3B, 1B, C, RF).

TDog
05-23-2010, 09:58 PM
Swisher was probably the wrong fit for the team, was counted on to do too much (lead off and play center field), and made things worse by performing poorly.

We can only judge trades by the results. I think the two Swisher trades might have caused serious long-term harm to this organization.

i don't see how you can say that. I don't believe the Swisher trades caused longterm damage to the organization because I don't believe Gio Gonzalez would still be in the organization, and DLS has never progressed beyond Class A ball. It took some trading of starting more highly paid pitchers and some injuries for Gonzalez even to get into the A's rotation this year.

If Gonzalez were on the staff, either the White Sox would be in much more serious trouble than they are now or he would be in Williams' place today, probably with similar results. The damage to the organization would have been no greater than if Sweeney would have suffered an injury that prevented him from making it to the major leagues.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2010, 10:38 PM
i don't see how you can say that. I don't believe the Swisher trades caused longterm damage to the organization because I don't believe Gio Gonzalez would still be in the organization, and DLS has never progressed beyond Class A ball. It took some trading of starting more highly paid pitchers and some injuries for Gonzalez even to get into the A's rotation this year.

If Gonzalez were on the staff, either the White Sox would be in much more serious trouble than they are now or he would be in Williams' place today, probably with similar results. The damage to the organization would have been no greater than if Sweeney would have suffered an injury that prevented him from making it to the major leagues.

I've said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again. Take away the two Swisher deals, and KW either could have made different (better) trades with the prospects, or could have had:

1. Gio and Ely in the bullpen (Pierre trade unnecessary);

2. Sweeney as a 3rd/4th OF (Kotsay re-signing unnecessary);

3. One less hole, with Allen to replace PK in 2011 (Pena trade unnecessary);

4. Available payroll dollars (not being spent on Pierre on Kotsay).

Extend the counter-factual scenario even further. With Sweeney developing into an average (I didn't say good or great) LH hitter, maybe KW doesn't feel the need to deal Fields and Getz for another, average LH hitter like Teahen (who is much more expensive), meaning Beckham stays at 3B (where he played much better defense in his first year at that position than Teahen does now).

In this counter-factual scenario, we've effectively replaced Teahen, Kotsay, Pierre, Williams and Pena with Gio, Ely, Getz and Sweeney, at MUCH LOWER cost.

Putting aside the fact that Sweeney is OPS-ing 100 points higher than Teahen, the real difference comes with what KW could have done with the money he has now saved NOT paying big money to Pierre and Teahen.

Assembling this indirect chain of causation is debatable, but nevertheless is why I maintain that the first Swisher trade set things in motion for a series of moves that have backfired.

Domeshot17
05-23-2010, 10:51 PM
No, I am not nuts. People here exaggerate the trade value Gonzalez and DLS had before the 2008 season.

Swisher turned out to be a bust. Keeping him would have hurt the team more than finding someone else to pay his contract.

I disagree. DLS and GIO had a ton of trade value. Kenny even admitted he knew he gave up a TON because Swisher was not readily available or on the block.

We gave up 1 top 100 prospect for Peavy
we gave 2 top 100 prospects for Swisher, both thought of higher than Poreda
When we got back Swisher, people drooled over his affordable contract
when we dealt Swisher, people were so thankful we got out of his dreadful contract.

Kenny got ripped off, big time, for Swisher, twice.

And, I would argue Kenny has not been earning his paycheck over the last 4 years. 3 seasons under .500 (barring a miracle this year), 1 playoff appearance that was a 1 and done. Not once have we been any kind of real contender. Kenny Williams has become just like Ozzie Guillen, All talk.

SI1020
05-23-2010, 11:22 PM
Floyd had a major league complete game shutout before he was traded for the White Sox. (It required Aaron Rowand to break his nose catching a deep drive to center, and it was shortened by rain, but it added to his value.) Danks had less value than Brandon McCarthy (Danks was one of three players who went to the Sox for McCarthy and a minor leaguer) when he was traded to the White Sox, and McCarthy was 7-9 with an ERA of 4.39 as a major leaguer. It was essentially a trade of pitchers (McCarthy for Danks and Massett) of pitchers their teams didn't believe in as much as the pitchers they were getting back.

The White Sox didn't hang on to McCarthy and wait for him to develop. The Rangers didn't hang on to Danks and wait for him to develop. The Phillies didn't hang on to Floyd or Gio Gonzalez to wait for him to develop.

Complain about the Sox trading away young pitchers who find a little bit of success years later because you didn't have to live with all the failure that preceded it. There are rippling consequences to hanging on to pitchers to waiting for them to develop. Gonzalez didn't have a future in the starting rotation for the White Sox barring a trade of Danks or Buehrle. He likely would have been disastrous coming out of the bullpen many times over the past two years, judging from his lack of consistency as a starter.

Developing pitchers can be a crap shoot. But there are very few organizations who have the philosophy of trading away most of their most successful starters that creates the patience to let Gonzalez develop. I wanted to reply to this but see Dr C, Frater and Domeshot. They did at least as good a job as I would have done.

TDog
05-24-2010, 02:32 AM
...
In this counter-factual scenario, we've effectively replaced Teahen, Kotsay, Pierre, Williams and Pena with Gio, Ely, Getz and Sweeney, at MUCH LOWER cost. ...

Assembling trades long after you have seen how things have played out and criticising the general manager for things he didn't do is so much easier than assembling a team that will win.

I criticized Kenny Williams for the Nick Swisher trade on my first visit to a computer after I heard about it on the radio. If the Giants hadn't overpaid Aaron Rowand, if the Angels hadn't overpaid Torii Hunter, if Mark Kotsay hadn't suffered back problems that required surgery before the 2007, Nick Swisher wouldn't have ever played centerfield -- at least he wouldn't have become a full-time centerfielder -- and Williams wouldn't have traded for him.

Oddly enough, two months after the A's traded Nick Swisher to the White Sox, with Kotsay coming off of back surgery and hitting only .214 in 2007, the Atlanta Braves got Kotsay for two pitching prospects including a first-round draft pick who was a stronger prospect than Gonzalez. (The other prospect, like DLS, has never advanced beyond Class A.) In the eyes of two organizations that offseason, the difference between Swisher and a Kotsay coming off his worst career season was a rookie outfielder with no power.

You aren't taking into consideration the real trade value of minor league pitching prospects.

I wouldn't have traded for Nick Swisher. But I won't pretend that I could have done a better job of building the White Sox than Kenny Williams.

It's Dankerific
05-24-2010, 02:38 AM
I guess I just find it astonishing that where one ballclub was willing to part with a ML proven player, that those same people wouldnt at least helped get some OTHER ML proven player.

The Swisher trade was bad and its pretty easy to follow that trading for him was the worst choice between A) keeping the players and costing pennies if they fail, B) using them in a trade for a useful player and C) trading for Nick Swisher.

khan
05-24-2010, 11:02 AM
KW has three options to get out of the current predicament:

1. Increase payroll to buy his way out of the current predicament;

2. Invest more resources into the draft, scouting and player development;

3. Make some trades that he can win.

Due to the self-imposed budget, #1 is not an option. Due to the need to sell tickets, relying solely on #2 while the major league team sucks is not an option. Given KW's history as a deal maker, he almost certainly will try #3. We just have to hope he can pull another Garcia or Danks kind of trade to acquire some solid position players (3B, 1B, C, RF).

I have been of the opinion that KW could NOT do option 3, because there simply aren't enough pieces in the organization. I have felt this way since the offseason of 08-09.

Completely denuding a minor league system makes the business of baseball terribly expensive. It makes a team more desperate in free agency and in trades. It makes a team project players to be more than they are, simply out of wishful thinking. It makes a team's margin for error to be paper-thin.

I have been of the option that KW has had to do a little bit of option 1, so as to keep the team competitive in the near term. I'm not talking about throwing around $15M on a top-tier FA. My view was to obtain/retain a few reasonably-priced pieces, such as Pods and ESPECIALLY Thome; Keeping the team competitive keeps the turnstiles turning. In turn, all of this allows KW to do more of option #2.

By keeping the team competitive, it would buy the organization enough time to allow whatever pieces in the minors to develop. By conserving a few more pieces in the minors during the offseason, it would have allowed KW to move some @ the trade deadline.


Now, KW/the organization are in the worst possible position: The team is old, bad, expensive, and the minor league system has been denuded. The next few seasons may be a bit bleak, unfortunately.

DirtySox
05-24-2010, 11:05 AM
Completely denuding a minor league system makes the business of baseball terribly expensive. It makes a team more desperate in free agency and in trades. It makes a team project players to be more than they are, simply out of wishful thinking. It makes a team's margin for error to be paper-thin.


Now, KW/the organization are in the worst possible position: The team is old, bad, expensive, and the minor league system has been denuded. The next few seasons may be a bit bleak, unfortunately.

Bingo

jabrch
05-24-2010, 12:10 PM
The argument can be made that minor league pitching has little to no value, because the failure rate is over 90%.


The arguement can be made that a lottery ticket has no value either...and to the majority of the population that is true. The value, however, of a WINNING lottery ticket is very high - as with a successful pitching prospect. So either you forgo trying, or you invest enough, and smartly, and hope to win once in a while...

jabrch
05-24-2010, 12:16 PM
Due to the self-imposed budget, #1 is not an option. .

What about the budget is "self imposed"? They spend what they have available to spend. Nobody seems to disagree that the owners aren't pocketing a ton of cash (taking a small dividend - but nothing earthshattering) from the operation of the team. So they spend what they can....

Lip Man 1
05-24-2010, 01:37 PM
Jab:

it will be interesting to see how they get out of this cycle. As others have said there appears to be only a limited number of ways to do so.

I think we both agree they won't draw if they are losing....they have to win to buy them some time to get the minor league act back together, I think Buddy Bell is doing the best job he can from his standpoint but as I posted in another thread the comment from a media media who closely follows the draft is troubling.

They may have to decide that the only way out of this in the short term is to go over their budget like it or not, to get enough talent to at least have the semblence of winning.

Honestly that's the only short term solution I can see. The minor league system won't get fixed overnight and I don't think they have enough real talent in the here and now to face Minnesota and Detroit on a regular basis and come out ahead.

Regarding Frater's comment, I think he means (he can correct me if I'm wrong), that they choose to spend a certain amount based on revenues, they have the option to do otherwise, there's no salary cap in MLB and that it probably wouldn't bankrupt them if they did so for a few years.

Lip

TDog
05-24-2010, 01:39 PM
The arguement can be made that a lottery ticket has no value either...and to the majority of the population that is true. The value, however, of a WINNING lottery ticket is very high - as with a successful pitching prospect. So either you forgo trying, or you invest enough, and smartly, and hope to win once in a while...

That is an interesting analogy. The reason teams don't keep all their lottery tickets is that the rules won't permit it and practical considerations further only allow them to keep so many. The Rule 5 draft, for example, prevents teams from stockpiling too much major league talent, and it means that holding on to some players comes at the expense of not being able to hold on to others.

A pitcher who looks like he could take some time to develop may or may not be worth it, and gambling on him could come with the expense of losing another "lottery ticket" of apparently similar value. Organizations often are faced with the reality of not being able to keep both. It is a lot easier to win the lottery if you know what numbers will be picked.

Consequently, pitching prospects don't have the value of winning lottery tickets. The Cubs give up on Jon Garland in favor of immediate bullpen help, disappointed that he isn't developing as they thought he would. The Mariners trade their apparently losing lottery ticket in Matt Thornton for a Powerball ticket, knowing it's a longshot but believing they have nothing to lose.

Like lottery tickets, it can be difficult to look at a prospect and predict major league success. And with pitchers especially, the success can be brief if it comes at all.

Wait another 20 years, and you will be able to criticize Kenny Williams with even more authority. Consider the following:

The Pirates want Terry Forster and Rich Gossage, two proven major leaguers. They can trade slugger Richie Zisk, but to sweeten the deal, they throw in Silvio Martinez, a minor league pitching prospect. The White Sox need everything after the 1976 season, and the Pirates are proposing to gut their bullpen. Martinez doesn't have much success when he is brought up by the White Sox in 1977 -- his ERA is over 5 -- and in November, he is named as one of the players to be named later to complete the deal for aging reliever Clay Carroll from the Cardinals. (Carroll would be released on the eve of the 1978 season.)

The Cardinals make Martinez a starter, and he's just a .500 pitcher in 1978, but shows flashes of being a top starter, pitching two complete-game shutouts. The next year, he 15-8 at the age of 23, and the White Sox (Bill Veeck was such an idiot) and Pirates (although they won the World Series in 1979) were stupid for giving up on him. But he goes 7-15 in his next two seasons and his major league career is over at the age of 25.

The fact is, right now you don't even know if Gio Gonzalez is a winning lottery ticket. If he had come up with the Sox the last two years as he came up with the A's, WSI would have been begging for him to be traded, if not for Nick Swisher, perhaps a bag of balls.

Hitmen77
05-24-2010, 04:29 PM
Jab:

it will be interesting to see how they get out of this cycle. As others have said there appears to be only a limited number of ways to do so.

I think we both agree they won't draw if they are losing....they have to win to buy them some time to get the minor league act back together, I think Buddy Bell is doing the best job he can from his standpoint but as I posted in another thread the comment from a media media who closely follows the draft is troubling.

They may have to decide that the only way out of this in the short term is to go over their budget like it or not, to get enough talent to at least have the semblence of winning.

Honestly that's the only short term solution I can see. The minor league system won't get fixed overnight and I don't think they have enough real talent in the here and now to face Minnesota and Detroit on a regular basis and come out ahead.

Regarding Frater's comment, I think he means (he can correct me if I'm wrong), that they choose to spend a certain amount based on revenues, they have the option to do otherwise, there's no salary cap in MLB and that it probably wouldn't bankrupt them if they did so for a few years.

Lip

Lip,
Another thing the Sox need to seriously consider is the responsibility of the coaches and manager in this team's 4 year stretch of under performing. Yes, the players are to blame and so is the dismally low level of talent we've been cranking out of our own minor league system.....but players have come and gone since 2006 and this team has chronically under performed (especially on offense).....people have to stop talking like Sox management is beyond reproach with how this team has performed.

Interesting that a number of players we have traded away are putting up some decent numbers this year and yet the Sox roster seems to be in total meltdown. Something is fundamentally wrong with a team that has this problem year after year. Some people talk about Kenny, Ozzie, Walker, Cora, and yes even Cooper as if they have lifetime contracts. Every year they promise us that the team is going to get back to fundamentals and that we're going to get players that are good at fundamentals, blah, blah, blah. But every year it's the same old story. Wouldn't you think that at some point, the people getting paid to actually do what they keep promising are held responsible for this team's utter failure in regards to becoming a better fundamental ball club?

A. Cavatica
05-24-2010, 07:09 PM
The Pirates want Terry Forster and Rich Gossage, two proven major leaguers. They can trade slugger Richie Zisk, but to sweeten the deal, they throw in Silvio Martinez, a minor league pitching prospect.

But Zisk was a grinder.

It's Dankerific
05-24-2010, 07:17 PM
What about the budget is "self imposed"? They spend what they have available to spend. Nobody seems to disagree that the owners aren't pocketing a ton of cash (taking a small dividend - but nothing earthshattering) from the operation of the team. So they spend what they can....

There's this financial concept called capital gain.....

Lip Man 1
05-24-2010, 07:19 PM
Actually there is no reason to "blame" Veeck for anything with this deal. The Sox were not going to re-sign either Forster or Gossage period. Anyone who thinks so is living a fantasy.

Free agency destroyed any chance Veeck had of accomplishing anything over the long term. He got a guy who wanted to produce because it was also his free agent year. The deal turned out well for all concerned.

Without Zisk there is no 1977 Southside Hit Men...it was at least a drink in a desert for Sox fans since 1972. If the Sox kept Forster and Gossage, the pitching probably would have been better but they also probably wouldn't have won 90 games entertaining fans the way they did.

Blame Veeck for a lot of things but not this one.

Lip

khan
05-24-2010, 08:09 PM
Jab:

it will be interesting to see how they get out of this cycle. As others have said there appears to be only a limited number of ways to do so.

I think we both agree they won't draw if they are losing....they have to win to buy them some time to get the minor league act back together, I think Buddy Bell is doing the best job he can from his standpoint but as I posted in another thread the comment from a media media who closely follows the draft is troubling.

They may have to decide that the only way out of this in the short term is to go over their budget like it or not, to get enough talent to at least have the semblence of winning.

Honestly that's the only short term solution I can see. The minor league system won't get fixed overnight and I don't think they have enough real talent in the here and now to face Minnesota and Detroit on a regular basis and come out ahead.

I agree with all of this. This is why I supported bringing back Thome. NOT because "he's a nice guy," but because he PUNISHES RHP, for the measly $1.5M that he's making. And this is why I wasn't throwing a party in response to the trade for Pierre; The threadbare minor league system was even further depleted in this trade. [And in other trades as well, BTW.]

As you said, the only way out of this predicament is/was for KW to STOP GIVING AWAY ASSETS, and to sign a few pieces in FA over the near-term. Then, it would be up to Buddy Bell and up to whatever the org puts into scouting for the mid- to longer term. Here's hoping they figure this out.

Nellie_Fox
05-25-2010, 12:55 AM
There's this financial concept called capital gain.....Which is wonderful when you sell your shares. Until then it's on paper.

TDog
05-25-2010, 02:17 AM
But Zisk was a grinder.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Zisk hit .290 with with 101 RBIs and 30 home runs, becoming only the third White Sox player to hit 30 home runs in a season.

It's Dankerific
05-25-2010, 03:13 AM
Which is wonderful when you sell your shares. Until then it's on paper.

Buy, Borrow, Die.

Tax advice for free.

Mohoney
05-25-2010, 06:28 AM
I disagree. DLS and GIO had a ton of trade value. Kenny even admitted he knew he gave up a TON because Swisher was not readily available or on the block.

We gave up 1 top 100 prospect for Peavy
we gave 2 top 100 prospects for Swisher, both thought of higher than Poreda
When we got back Swisher, people drooled over his affordable contract
when we dealt Swisher, people were so thankful we got out of his dreadful contract.

Kenny got ripped off, big time, for Swisher, twice.

And, I would argue Kenny has not been earning his paycheck over the last 4 years. 3 seasons under .500 (barring a miracle this year), 1 playoff appearance that was a 1 and done. Not once have we been any kind of real contender. Kenny Williams has become just like Ozzie Guillen, All talk.

What you're saying is true, but Peavy was cheaper than what he should rightfully have been because:

His contract is MASSIVE
He was hurt at the time
The Padres were going through ownership turmoil

Mohoney
05-25-2010, 06:39 AM
What about the budget is "self imposed"? They spend what they have available to spend. Nobody seems to disagree that the owners aren't pocketing a ton of cash (taking a small dividend - but nothing earthshattering) from the operation of the team. So they spend what they can....

I think he meant "self-imposed" as in "not going ridiculously overboard and committing $500+ million in future payroll for one shot at a World Series" like a handful of other teams have done in the recent past.

It's pretty much common knowledge that this ownership group is not in this to reap a huge financial windfall. If they were, they would behave like the Marlins, Royals, Pirates, etc. and just pocket revenue sharing checks while showcasing a quadruple-A team.