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Brian26
05-19-2010, 11:48 PM
Over the past month I've seemed to realize a greater appreciation for the 2000 Sox team. They fizzled out towards the end of the year and were swept in the playoffs, yet the foundation of that team entertained us for five years with CLee, Mags, Konerko, Frank, Valentin and hope for a bright future.

As the team was split up after the 2004 season, you could argue that Kenny used three of the main parts (CLee, Mags, and Valentin) to build the final parts of the 2005 World Series Champions.

Now, five years later, the only remaining part of the 2000 team is Konerko, and the 2005 team has essentially been dismantled except for AJ with nothing in return.

Everything is cyclical in baseball. At this point, the Sox seem to be in the same position they were after the 1997 season. Jordans Danks, Flowers and Retherford will need time to mature before they're productive, so perhaps they need to come up sooner rather than later, hoping the Sox can be seriously competitive two or three years from now (as Mags and CLee needed a couple of years to mature in 98 and 99).

Dub25
05-19-2010, 11:54 PM
Over the past month I've seemed to realize a greater appreciation for the 2000 Sox team. They fizzled out towards the end of the year and were swept in the playoffs, yet the foundation of that team entertained us for five years with CLee, Mags, Konerko, Frank, Valentin and hope for a bright future.

As the team was split up after the 2004 season, you could argue that Kenny used three of the main parts (CLee, Mags, and Valentin) to build the final parts of the 2005 World Series Champions.

Now, five years later, the only remaining part of the 2000 team is Konerko, and the 2005 team has essentially been dismantled except for AJ with nothing in return.

Everything is cyclical in baseball. At this point, the Sox seem to be in the same position they were after the 1997 season. Jordans Danks, Flowers and Retherford will need time to mature before they're productive, so perhaps they need to come up sooner rather than later, hoping the Sox can be seriously competitive two or three years from now (as Mags and CLee needed a couple of years to mature in 98 and 99).

Interesting post. I'm curious to see how others will respond.

tacosalbarojas
05-20-2010, 12:01 AM
Fantastic post and agree wholeheartedly. I've said for weeks that if this continues, the only thing I'm waiting for is the call-ups of Viciedo, Danks, and Flowers. If we continue to tank, I believe all three will get "major minutes" in the 2nd half. And their performance will bear watching.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2010, 12:01 AM
Brian:

The Sox of 2000 (and through 2003) were just as bad in the offensive sense of home run or nothing as the teams in the later part of the decade, there was one big difference.

Guys were hitting .290, .300, .310 with 35 home runs as opposed to .250 with 25 home runs. That makes up for a lot of missed opportunities and bad games against garbage pitchers (which really started in Texas in 2003 according to Bill Melton...)

Frank,Ordonez, Lee, Konerko were in their prime. What doomed the Sox in 2000 was an inept G.M. in Ron Schueler who with the pitching staff falling apart with injuries did **** for that side of the dugout at the trade deadline. Then those injuries completely decimated the 2001 season because of all the surgeries and additional injuries. Of course Schueler wasn't around for that. :rolleyes: Just another golden chance missed by the organization because they couldn't or wouldn't fix an area that came back to kill them.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:03 AM
I loved that 2000 team. The thing that strikes me most about them was they had one of the youngest lineups (average age 27.6, about a year older than Minnesota and 2 years under league average) and pitching staffs (26.5 years old, 3 years under league average and older than only Kansas City) plus they had the #1 rated farm system in all of baseball at the time and couldn't keep it going.

Don't forget Brian, there was a little-known, 21-year-old September call-up for that 2000 team who went on to pitch in the play-offs, too.

:burly

tacosalbarojas
05-20-2010, 12:05 AM
I loved that 2000 team. The thing that strikes me most about them was they had one of the youngest lineups (average age 27.6, about a year older than Minnesota and 2 years under league average) and pitching staffs (26.5 years old, 3 years under league average and older than only Kansas City) plus they had the #1 rated farm system in all of baseball at the time and couldn't keep it going.

Don't forget Brian, there was a little-known, 21-year-old September call-up for that 2000 team who went on to pitch in the play-offs, too.

:burlyWasn't he called up in July though?

Brian26
05-20-2010, 12:05 AM
Frank, Ordonez, Lee, Konerko were in their prime.

And that's the point of my post. Who do we have right now in their prime? I'm not sure even Rios can compare to the names listed above. Makes you appreciate what we had in 2000 and how long those guys carried us, and it also makes you realize how much work needs to be done to get back to that point.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:06 AM
Brian:

The Sox of 2000 (and through 2003) were just as bad in the offensive sense of home run or nothing as the teams in the later part of the decade, there was one big difference.

Guys were hitting .290, .300, .310 with 35 home runs as opposed to .250 with 25 home runs. That makes up for a lot of missed opportunities and bad games against garbage pitchers (which really started in Texas in 2003 according to Bill Melton...)

Frank,Ordonez, Lee, Konerko were in their prime. What doomed the Sox in 2000 was an inept G.M. in Ron Schueler who with the pitching staff falling apart with injuries did **** for that side of the dugout at the trade deadline. Then those injuries completely decimated the 2001 season because of all the surgeries and additional injuries. Of course Schueler wasn't around for that. :rolleyes: Just another golden chance missed by the organization because they couldn't or wouldn't fix an area that came back to kill them.

Good post, Lip. I seem to remember a "try out on the fly" for the 5th starter spot in that season as well. I believe Ken Hill was picked up for that spot and probably still has a sore neck from all the hits he gave up.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:07 AM
And that's the point of my post. Who do we have right now in their prime? I'm not sure even Rios can compare to the names listed above. Makes you appreciate what we had in 2000 and how long those guys carried us, and it also makes you realize how much work needs to be done to get back to that point.

Rios might be able to compare to Konerko because of his speed.

JB98
05-20-2010, 12:08 AM
2000 was a fun summer. A 95-win season was so unexpected. I remember going into that year hoping they could surprise, but not really thinking they would.

They could really hit, and they were never out of a game. It didn't end well, with the whole pitching staff getting hurt, but I have positive memories of that 2000 team.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:10 AM
2000 was a fun summer. A 95-win season was so unexpected. I remember going into that year hoping they could surprise, but not really thinking they would.

They could really hit, and they were never out of a game. It didn't end well, with the whole pitching staff getting hurt, but I have positive memories of that 2000 team.

It was a great summer. I remember going into the actual summer months Frank hitting a big home run in Cincy to help win a game. Myself and my work partner went nuts.

Was 2000 the same year as the fight with the Tigers that really jump started that team?

I think Bill Simas was involved???

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:11 AM
Brian:

The Sox of 2000 (and through 2003) were just as bad in the offensive sense of home run or nothing as the teams in the later part of the decade, there was one big difference.

Guys were hitting .290, .300, .310 with 35 home runs as opposed to .250 with 25 home runs. That makes up for a lot of missed opportunities and bad games against garbage pitchers (which really started in Texas in 2003 according to Bill Melton...)

Well that's abjectly untrue. On top of being an explosively powerful offensive team, they were a very timely hitting team, as well. #1 in the AL in 2000 in % of runners on base who scored, #1 Power/Speed Ratio, and a .300 BA with RISP.

That team's offense was complete.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2010, 12:12 AM
Dub:

The 5th starter situation more often than not has been an issue with the Sox since it helped cost them a postseason spot in 1996. 2003 also really came back to kill them because that year if memory serves (I wrote about this at the end of last year) 5th starters went 3-14 in 2003.

Lip

Brian26
05-20-2010, 12:13 AM
Well that's abjectly untrue. On top of being an explosively powerful offensive team, they were a very timely hitting team, as well. #1 in the AL in 2000 in % of runners on base who scored, #1 Power/Speed Ratio, and a .300 BA with RISP.

That team's offense was complete.

Can you imagine that offense with the type of pitching we have now? Wow. There'd never be any fear of losing these 3-2 or 2-1 games.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2010, 12:14 AM
Doub:

I wasn't specifically singling out the 2000 club I was saying in general terms through the early part of the decade.

Go back and see for example the number of games where they'd score in double figures one game then get handcuffed in the next one...or next two. That was an issue brought up a lot here for example through I'd say 2004.

Lip

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:14 AM
Dub:

The 5th starter situation more often than not has been an issue with the Sox since it helped cost them a postseason spot in 1996. 2003 also really came back to kill them because that year if memory serves (I wrote about this at the end of last year) 5th starters went 3-14 in 2003.

Lip

Agreed, but for some reason 2000 really stuck out. Maybe because in the 2nd half Cal Eldred was hurting after winning 10 games in the first half. So, basically, they became a 4 man staff with a glaring hole in the 5th spot.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:17 AM
Doub:

I wasn't specifically singling out the 2000 club I was saying in general terms through the early part of the decade.

Go back and see for example the number of games where they'd score in double figures one game then get handcuffed in the next one...or next two. That was an issue brought up a lot here for example through I'd say 2004.

Lip

Whatever happened in the years after 2000, however, have nothing to do with that year when everything clicked. That team, for that year, was an offensive juggernaut, as good as any club offensively as I've ever seen. They had everything. Obviously things fell apart in the years between the Division Championship and the World Series, but what happened in 2001-2004 does not really matter in discussions of the 2000 team, especially since basically the entire offense had been overturned by 2004.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:19 AM
Doub:

I wasn't specifically singling out the 2000 club I was saying in general terms through the early part of the decade.

Go back and see for example the number of games where they'd score in double figures one game then get handcuffed in the next one...or next two. That was an issue brought up a lot here for example through I'd say 2004.

Lip

Again Lip... and I know you were responding to Doublem... but I don't remember the 2000 team being handcuffed as much as the other teams you mentioned. That 2000 team came through a lot. I remember C Lee hitting a walk off on Mariano Rivera because he went with his low and away to righties cutter or is it a 2 seamer or is a slider... opposite field for a HR.

Point being, that team came through. And as someone mentioned, that offense with this staff would be unbelievable.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:20 AM
Whatever happened in the years after 2000, however, have nothing to do with that year when everything clicked. That team, for that year, was an offensive juggernaut, as good as any club offensively as I've ever seen. They had everything. Obviously things fell apart in the years between the Division Championship and the World Series, but what happened in 2001-2004 does not really matter in discussions of the 2000 team, especially since basically the entire offense had been overturned by 2004.

I agree with you but I will say what killed the 2004 team was the injuries to Frank and Mags.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:21 AM
Whatever happened in the years after 2000, however, have nothing to do with that year when everything clicked. That team, for that year, was an offensive juggernaut, as good as any club offensively as I've ever seen. They had everything. Obviously things fell apart in the years between the Division Championship and the World Series, but what happened in 2001-2004 does not really matter in discussions of the 2000 team, especially since basically the entire offense had been overturned by 2004.

Every team that loses their 3-4 hitters will struggle.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2010, 12:23 AM
Dub:

I think the game you are talking about had Lee tie the game in the 9th on a home run and the Sox would win it later.

And in 2000, for about a month and a half in July / August Baldwin was out with an arm injury. They may have been a three man staff! Yet Jumbotron Ron did **** to help the pitching at the deadline.

Lip

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:23 AM
I agree with you but I will say what killed the 2004 team was the injuries to Frank and Mags.

Every team that loses their 3-4 hitters will struggle.

For sure.

Just to clarify, in a thread about the 2000 White Sox, I'm not at all talking about the teams from 1901-1999 and 2001-present. Reanalyzing those years, I'm sure, would be just as interesting but the 2000 team was very special. Hell, I still have my 2000 Division Champs T-shirt, and still bust it out every now and then. I loved that 2000 team.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:26 AM
Dub:

I think the game you are talking about had Lee tie the game in the 9th on a home run and the Sox would win it later.

And in 2000, for about a month and a half in July / August Baldwin was out with an arm injury. They may have been a three man staff! Yet Jumbotron Ron did **** to help the pitching at the deadline.

Lip

You sure about C Lee? I remember being just about a sleep and him hitting it.

And Yes, Baldwin, he pitched his butt off in Seattle in Game 3 and lost. so, yes a 3 man staff with a 4th and 5th starter try out happened in 2000.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:27 AM
For sure.

Just to clarify, in a thread about the 2000 White Sox, I'm not at all talking about the teams from 1901-1999 and 2001-present. Reanalyzing those years, I'm sure, would be just as interesting but the 2000 team was very special. Hell, I still have my 2000 Division Champs T-shirt, and still bust it out every now and then. I loved that 2000 team.

Agreed. :gulp:

Harry Potter
05-20-2010, 12:27 AM
Hell, I still have my 2000 Division Champs T-shirt, and still bust it out every now and then. I loved that 2000 team.

Very strangely enough, I've been wearing my 2000 divison champs shirt all day today.

LoveYourSuit
05-20-2010, 12:29 AM
My confidence level on a team was never higher than that 2000 team. Until the pitching staff became a hospital of injuries.


But that team could rake as good as any, even more than the 2006 team which IMO is the most complete team the Sox have had going into a season from day 1.

I honestly cannot remember ever feeling edgy with that 2000 club and nervous every night as I do this season and the last one.

I honestly feel that great hitting plus average pitching is enough to get it done.

Meanwhile, great pitching performing at mediocre levels to go along with crappy offense from day one...... That's a train wreck. That's what we have here in 2010. Even had this pitching staff gotten off to a hot start and been great here, I don't see anything more than a .500 team right now.

This formula sucks.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:31 AM
Very strangely enough, I've been wearing my 2000 divison champs shirt all day today.

That is strange. Do you have a McCay Christensen jersey to???

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:34 AM
And in 2000, for about a month and a half in July / August Baldwin was out with an arm injury. They may have been a three man staff! Yet Jumbotron Ron did **** to help the pitching at the deadline.

It's easy to say this back in hindsight, but at the time, the Sox were looking more and more like a monster in the making. They already had a young, explosive offensive core and they had some (then) major arms in their farm system. You're talking about an incredibly young team, already winning 90+ games with then #1 rated farm system in baseball, it was not at all a questionable move when Scheuler decided to roll the dice and play for the future, expecting the Sox to have more than 1 hurrah with that core.

Obviously looking back at things, some stuff didn't pan out, but I don't think you can complain too much, some of the core players in our farm system that Schueler didn't deal went on to be key players on the 2005 roster (Buehrle, Garland, Crede, Rowand) or were used to acquire key pieces of the '05 roster later on (Lee turned into Podsednik, Jon Rauch turned into Carl Everett, Matt Guerrier turned into Damaso Marte, Mike Morse was part of the package that landed Freddy Garcia, Matt Ginter became Timo Perez)

Harry Potter
05-20-2010, 12:34 AM
That is strange. Do you have a McCay Christensen jersey to???

Keith Foulke yes (wish I was joking about that - but hey, it's a vintage retro jersey!)

Christensen, unfortunately not

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:34 AM
Very strangely enough, I've been wearing my 2000 divison champs shirt all day today.

I still have, and wear, a Mike Sirotka jersey.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:36 AM
It's easy to say this back in hindsight, but at the time, the Sox were looking more and more like a monster in the making. They already had a young, explosive offensive core and they had some (then) major arms in their farm system. You're talking about an incredibly young team, already winning 90+ games with then #1 rated farm system in baseball, it was not at all a questionable move when Scheuler decided to roll the dice and play for the future, expecting the Sox to have more than 1 hurrah with that core.

Obviously looking back at things, some stuff didn't pan out, but I don't think you can complain too much, some of the core players in our farm system that didn't pan out went on to be key players on the 2005 roster (Buehrle, Garland, Crede, Rowand) or were used to acquire key pieces of the '05 roster later on (Lee turned into Podsednik, Jon Rauch turned into Carl Everett, Matt Guerrier turned into Damaso Marte, Mike Morse was part of the package that landed Freddy Garcia, Matt Ginter became Timo Perez)

Like you said, they were looking like a monster and a new GM brought us David Wells to solidify a rotation.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:40 AM
Like you said, they were looking like a monster and a new GM brought us David Wells to solidify a rotation.

I know it's hard to reimagine that 2000 minor league system, especially in light of what the Sox went on to accomplish just 5 years later, but you have to remember how highly touted some of our young arms were. Jon Rauch was considered the best pitching prospect in all of baseball, not just our organization. Kip Wells and Jon Garland were also considered plus prospects. Throw in the wild card Mark Buehrle you had a really young, potentially awesome starting rotation. That's not something you just throw away for a chance at 1 and done.

I know looking back now, Wells and Rauch never reached their potential and Garland sort of did, but it's very, very 20/20 to say the Sox should have ripped their farm system apart just to bring in a guy like ****in Sidney Ponson or whatever.

Dub25
05-20-2010, 12:43 AM
I know it's hard to reimagine that 2000 minor league system, especially in light of what the Sox went on to accomplish just 5 years later, but you have to remember how highly touted some of our young arms were. Jon Rauch was considered the best pitching prospect in all of baseball, not just our organization. Kip Wells and Jon Garland were also considered plus prospects. Throw in the wild card Mark Buehrle you had a really young, potentially awesome starting rotation. That's not something you just throw away for a chance at 1 and done.

I know looking back now, Wells and Rauch never reached their potential and Garland sort of did, but it's very, very 20/20 to say the Sox should have ripped their farm system apart just to bring in a guy like ****in Sidney Ponson or whatever.

Don't forget about Josh Fogg.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:50 AM
Don't forget about Josh Fogg.

I don't know if Fogg was ever that highly touted, more of a Clayton Richard-type "bulldog" whose moxey made up for his lack of "stuff." Fogg never cracked BA's Top 100 Prospects list, whereas between 1997-2003, the following pitchers in our system did:

Lorenzo Barcelo, Aaron Myette, Kip Wells, Jon Garland, Matt Ginter, Dan Wright, Corwin Malone, and Kris Honel

PalehosePlanet
05-20-2010, 12:50 AM
You sure about C Lee? I remember being just about a sleep and him hitting it.

And Yes, Baldwin, he pitched his butt off in Seattle in Game 3 and lost. so, yes a 3 man staff with a 4th and 5th starter try out happened in 2000.

Lee tied the game off Rivera and Jose Valentin won it with a two out, broken bet bloop over the 2B's head.

Yeah, the 2000 team was a blast to watch.

And Lip, yes you're absolutely right. The pitching was injury riddled and falling apart and all Schueler did was pick up Charles Johnson at the trade deadline.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 01:01 AM
And Lip, yes you're absolutely right. The pitching was injury riddled and falling apart and all Schueler did was pick up Charles Johnson at the trade deadline.

FWIW - Here's the list of pitchers who were traded during July, 2000:

Bruce Chen, Andy Ashby, Denny Neagle, Esteban Loaiza, Manny Aybar, Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa, Vincente Padilla, Curt Schilling, Ismael Valdez, Rolando Arrojo, Jesus Colome, Brendan Donnelly, Jason Bere, Bob Wickman, Steve Woodard, Rick White, Mike Timlin, Kent Bottenfield, Jason Christiansen, Scott Linebrink, Anthony Shumaker, Scott Downs, Mark Guthrie, Steve Trachsel, Heathcliff Slocumb, Tom Davey, Jay Witasick,

So, we have 1 game-changing name on that list, Schilling, a guy who had publicly stated he'd never play for the White Sox anyway. Please, guys, tell me exactly who you would have acquired that would have pushed the Sox over the top in 2000?

Now especially considering how many of the minor league players in our system that might have been used as trade bait that either were key cogs to the 2005 Sox or were used to acquire key cogs later on, please please please please tell me how anyone can still think Schueler made the wrong move by holding his cards. Maybe from a short-term standpoint, OK, but long-term, there is no debate. It's not unreasonable to suggest that had Schueler gone for it all in 2000 the Sox might not win the World Series in 2005.

JB98
05-20-2010, 01:11 AM
Very strangely enough, I've been wearing my 2000 divison champs shirt all day today.

Heh heh, I still have my 2000 division champs shirt, too. It's pretty worn out, but I wear it occasionally.

JB98
05-20-2010, 01:14 AM
It was a great summer. I remember going into the actual summer months Frank hitting a big home run in Cincy to help win a game. Myself and my work partner went nuts.

Was 2000 the same year as the fight with the Tigers that really jump started that team?

I think Bill Simas was involved???

That was the year of the fight, but I don't recall Simas being a key figure in the melee. Jeff Weaver was throwing at Sox hitters that day. Jim Parque retaliated by hitting Dean Palmer, who charged the mound. Keith Foulke ended up bloody because either Robert Fick or Bobby Higginson (can't remember which) suckered him from behind.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 01:20 AM
That was the year of the fight, but I don't recall Simas being a key figure in the melee. Jeff Weaver was throwing at Sox hitters that day. Jim Parque retaliated by hitting Dean Palmer, who charged the mound. Keith Foulke ended up bloody because either Robert Fick or Bobby Higginson (can't remember which) suckered him from behind.

Oh yeah, that was just after they moved to the Central and before they completely bottomed out. They were so easy to hate back then, everything about that team screamed "We're a bunch of *******s!" Higginson, Fick, Karim Garcia, Matt Anderson. What a load of pricks.

Phil Garner was their manager, too, that year. He was a grade-A douchebag, as well.

BTW, WSI has a great recap of the 2000 season: http://whitesoxinteractive.com/2000DivisionChamps.htm

Along with a good piece on the brawl: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?id=107&category=3

DumpJerry
05-20-2010, 02:41 AM
Wasn't he called up in July though?
Mark's debut was July 16, 2000 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml).

Moses_Scurry
05-20-2010, 05:40 AM
The main thing I remember from 2000 was that I had the boxscores automatically emailed to me from some website, and it seemed like every game ended with Wunch for 1 or 2 outs in the 7th, Howry with a scoreless 8th and Foulke with a scoreless 9th for the save. The back end of the bullpen was lights out for the first half of the season at least.

Moses_Scurry
05-20-2010, 05:43 AM
FWIW - Here's the list of pitchers who were traded during July, 2000:

Bruce Chen, Andy Ashby, Denny Neagle, Esteban Loaiza, Manny Aybar, Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa, Vincente Padilla, Curt Schilling, Ismael Valdez, Rolando Arrojo, Jesus Colome, Brendan Donnelly, Jason Bere, Bob Wickman, Steve Woodard, Rick White, Mike Timlin, Kent Bottenfield, Jason Christiansen, Scott Linebrink, Anthony Shumaker, Scott Downs, Mark Guthrie, Steve Trachsel, Heathcliff Slocumb, Tom Davey, Jay Witasick,

So, we have 1 game-changing name on that list, Schilling, a guy who had publicly stated he'd never play for the White Sox anyway. Please, guys, tell me exactly who you would have acquired that would have pushed the Sox over the top in 2000?

Now especially considering how many of the minor league players in our system that might have been used as trade bait that either were key cogs to the 2005 Sox or were used to acquire key cogs later on, please please please please tell me how anyone can still think Schueler made the wrong move by holding his cards. Maybe from a short-term standpoint, OK, but long-term, there is no debate. It's not unreasonable to suggest that had Schueler gone for it all in 2000 the Sox might not win the World Series in 2005.


There are a few guys on that list who would have been serviceable in the 5th starter role. Ismael Valdez, Denny Neagle, Steve Trachsel and Jason Bere would have all been upgrades over minor leaguers. I'm glad they didn't trade away any 2005 cogs though.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2010, 11:34 AM
Mike Mussina was also widely reported to be on the block in 2000. I have no idea how close the Orioles came to dealing him or to whom they may have been talking with.

Someone earlier said the Schueler got David Wells. He didn't, that was Kenny.

Looking back I guess I shouldn't have been surprtised at the lack of results at the trade deadline under Ron. He did the same things in 1991 and 1996 costing the Sox in my opinion, at least one post season spot. He was always concerned that if he were to trade such "studs" like Scott Ruffcorn, Rodney Bolton and their ilk they would come back to bite him on the rear end. A G.M. can't be afraid to look bad...all G.M.'s from the best to the worst are going to make mistakes. That's the nature of the job.

Lip

veeter
05-20-2010, 12:25 PM
Like you said, they were looking like a monster and a new GM brought us David Wells to solidify a rotation.He also brought in Royce Clayton because all of the Sox troubles were because of Valetin's defense.

veeter
05-20-2010, 12:27 PM
The main thing I remember from 2000 was that I had the boxscores automatically emailed to me from some website, and it seemed like every game ended with Wunch for 1 or 2 outs in the 7th, Howry with a scoreless 8th and Foulke with a scoreless 9th for the save. The back end of the bullpen was lights out for the first half of the season at least.The team really seemed unified after the brawl with Detroit. Robert Fick, what an *******.

veeter
05-20-2010, 12:34 PM
I think I'm resigned to the fact that the Sox will never be a consistent winner. That there will be special years to look back on. Special because they're random and usually spectacular. But we'll all be able to take, watching our favorite team win a World Championship, to our graves. And that's great.

Chez
05-20-2010, 05:06 PM
Mike Mussina was also widely reported to be on the block in 2000. I have no idea how close the Orioles came to dealing him or to whom they may have been talking with.

Someone earlier said the Schueler got David Wells. He didn't, that was Kenny.

Looking back I guess I shouldn't have been surprtised at the lack of results at the trade deadline under Ron. He did the same things in 1991 and 1996 costing the Sox in my opinion, at least one post season spot. He was always concerned that if he were to trade such "studs" like Scott Ruffcorn, Rodney Bolton and their ilk they would come back to bite him on the rear end. A G.M. can't be afraid to look bad...all G.M.'s from the best to the worst are going to make mistakes. That's the nature of the job.

Lip

Lip:

Schu picked up Charles Johnson to catch and Harold baines to pinch hit during the year. Johnson was a key addition.

CLUBHOUSE KID
05-20-2010, 05:24 PM
The 2000 WSox thread got me thinking. Does 2005 happen if 2004 goes good/better? I mean, what if Maggs/Thomas were not hurt and played like they could. Would Ozzie say get speed from those kinds of players? Dye wouldn't have been here because Maggs would have stayed. I mean, AJ could come and maybe Iguchi. However, it would not have been the total change IMO. What do you guys think?

DumpJerry
05-20-2010, 05:29 PM
Why do you thinks Mags would have stayed if he was not injured? Before he got hurt, the Sox put a deal on the table and he did not sign it. Scott Borass was his agent.

I don't think Mags would have been here if he was not hurt.

Oh yeah, he missed a ton of games in 2005 because of his "hernia" which was "unrelated" to his 2004 injury.

eriqjaffe
05-20-2010, 05:32 PM
The 2000 WSox thread got me thinking. Does 2005 happen if 2004 goes good/better? I mean, what if Maggs/Thomas were not hurt and played like they could. Would Ozzie say get speed from those kinds of players? Dye wouldn't have been here because Maggs would have stayed. I mean, AJ could come and maybe Iguchi. However, it would not have been the total change IMO. What do you guys think?IIRC, the Sox had offered Maggs somewhere in the neighborhood of $14-$15m a year, which he turned down. Ultimately, the money they would've paid Maggs more than covered AJ, Iguchi, and Dye's contracts for that year.

If Maggs had accepted the offer, the Sox would've been drastically different, and probably wouldn't have even made the postseason, much less won the Series.

CLUBHOUSE KID
05-20-2010, 05:33 PM
IIRC, the Sox had offered Maggs somewhere in the neighborhood of $14-$15m a year, which he turned down. Ultimately, the money they would've paid Maggs more than covered AJ, Iguchi, and Dye's contracts for that year.

If Maggs had accepted the offer, the Sox would've been drastically different, and probably wouldn't have even made the postseason, much less won the Series.

Valid point regarding $. All I remember was the injury and not willing to pay due to that not all the other stuff. Sorry lol

mantis1212
05-20-2010, 05:41 PM
IIRC, the Sox had offered Maggs somewhere in the neighborhood of $14-$15m a year, which he turned down. Ultimately, the money they would've paid Maggs more than covered AJ, Iguchi, and Dye's contracts for that year.

If Maggs had accepted the offer, the Sox would've been drastically different, and probably wouldn't have even made the postseason, much less won the Series.

I think that offer was contingent upon his knee passing inspection, which it may not have.

We still have those 5 starters and McCarty to pick up some slack- I like to think we still trade Lee for Pods, paying for Iguchi and AJ.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2010, 05:42 PM
Chez:

Which did absolutely nothing for a pitching staff running on fumes with the injuries to (at that time) Eldred and Baldwin. Later in the season both Sirotka and Parque got hurt basically ending their careers. The relief corps threw more trying to pick up the slack which resulted in injuries to Simas, Wunsch and Howry.

Not only did Schueler in my opinion gut any real chance the Sox had in 2000, but the staff was so decimated for 2001 that the team never was in contention after a disasterous start,

It did however produce one good thing. In 2001 Manuel was so short of starters in the spring that he gave a late round left handed pitcher a shot. His name? Mak Buehrle.

Lip

DumpJerry
05-20-2010, 05:44 PM
Valid point regarding $. All I remember was the injury and not willing to pay due to that not all the other stuff. Sorry lol
The Sox were not saying they were not willing to pay Maggs after the injury. He was arbitration elgible. He went to Europe to have a secret doctor work on his leg. Borass would not let the Sox review the medical records before the deadline to offer arbitration. The Sox had no idea whatsoever what the condition of Magg's leg was like. They were not about to drop a ton of $$$ on a player who had an injury that had ended other players' careers.

Because Borass would not let teams review Magg's medical records, only on team was crazy enough to approach him to negotiate-the Tigers. They negotiated a contract that said if the leg injury from 2004 prevented Maggs from playing in a specific number of games in the first year of the contract, the contract was null and void and the Tigers would not have to cough up the huge bucks in the subsequent years.

Then Maggs developed a "hernia" which kept him out of so many games, it was impossible for Maggs to miss games because of the 2004 injury.

That is what happened. It was not the Sox were unwilling to pay. They, along with 28 other teams, we unwilling to take such a huge risk with so little information.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 05:46 PM
The Sox were not saying they were not willing to pay Maggs after the injury. He was arbitration elgible. He went to Europe to have a secret doctor work on his leg. Borass would not let the Sox review the medical records before the deadline to offer arbitration. The Sox had no idea whatsoever what the condition of Magg's leg was like. They were not about to drop a ton of $$$ on a player who had an injury that had ended other players' careers.

Because Borass would not let teams review Magg's medical records, only on team was crazy enough to approach him to negotiate-the Tigers. They negotiated a contract that said if the leg injury from 2004 prevented Maggs from playing in a specific number of games in the first year of the contract, the contract was null and void and the Tigers would not have to cough up the huge bucks in the subsequent years.

Then Maggs developed a "hernia" which kept him out of so many games, it was impossible for Maggs to miss games because of the 2004 injury.

That is what happened. It was not the Sox were unwilling to pay. They, along with 28 other teams, we unwilling to take such a huge risk with so little information.

Maggs wasn't arbitration eligible, the extension he signed in 2001 covered 2002-2004 and bought out his arb years, he was a free agent.

Domeshot17
05-20-2010, 05:48 PM
It also worked out for both teams. The Sox went on and won a title, and Maggs lived up to most of his contract in Detroit.

That said, the most important part of 2005 is and always will be career years from Cotts-Politte-Hermanson-Garland and CO. The offense was interchangable.

veeter
05-20-2010, 05:49 PM
I agree that Maggs would have been gone even if he wasn't injured. In fact, he may have signed with Detroit even sooner. A lot of factors played in 2005's success. I'm just glad it all happened.

veeter
05-20-2010, 05:50 PM
It also worked out for both teams. The Sox went on and won a title, and Maggs lived up to most of his contract in Detroit.

That said, the most important part of 2005 is and always will be career years from Cotts-Politte-Hermanson-Garland and CO. The offense was interchangable.Perfectly stated.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 05:50 PM
Chez:

Which did absolutely nothing for a pitching staff running on fumes with the injuries to (at that time) Eldred and Baldwin. Later in the season both Sirotka and Parque got hurt basically ending their careers. The relief corps threw more trying to pick up the slack which resulted in injuries to Simas, Wunsch and Howry.

Not only did Schueler in my opinion gut any real chance the Sox had in 2000, but the staff was so decimated for 2001 that the team never was in contention after a disasterous start,

It did however produce one good thing. In 2001 Manuel was so short of starters in the spring that he gave a late round left handed pitcher a shot. His name? Mak Buehrle.

Lip

And yet you continue to dance around the point that a lot of the guys in the Sox farm system in 2000 either became key players in 2005 or were later used to acquire key players. Look, I'm all for making a big splash when the time's right, but the Sox in 2000 did not look at all like a one-and-done. Given the success that core of talent had, it looks more and more like Schueler was wise to keep them together. Had he followed your logic and drunkenly gambled the entire farm system at the first taste of success, we very well might in Year #93.

Schueler sitting on his cards instead of wasting talent to acquire washouts like Ismael Valdes allowed 2005 to happen. The guy deserves some credit for that.

Milkman43
05-20-2010, 05:56 PM
2000 was a fun summer. A 95-win season was so unexpected. I remember going into that year hoping they could surprise, but not really thinking they would.

They could really hit, and they were never out of a game. It didn't end well, with the whole pitching staff getting hurt, but I have positive memories of that 2000 team.

Ray Durham was a lot of fun to watch that season.

khan
05-20-2010, 05:57 PM
Schueler always "sat on his cards." Very rarely do I remember him trading a prospect for a vet to push the SOX to the postseason, outside of Johnson.

KW, OTOH, seems to have the opposite problem, and trades minor leaguers almost indiscriminately. He also bought high on Swisher, and sold low on both Swisher and Vazquez.

Having said that, I'd still take KW over Schueler.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2010, 05:59 PM
Double:

The White Sox have a real legit shot to win a World Series as often as a republican is Mayor of Chicago.

When those rare, unique chances come up, you roll the dice and go for broke, you don't flush them down the toilet by doing nothing (and history as well as yourself have shown and stated that out of all those "prospects" only Garland who to the best of my knowledge wasn't even mentioned in any trade talks given that he was an unknown, made any pitching contribution to the 2005 club.)

We'll just have to agree to disagree with this. Schueler to me, cost the Sox shots in 1991, 1996 and 2000 because he wasn't willing to stick his rear end on the line and look bad. After doing nothing in 96 for example, when the club was urinating away a great start because of a terrible bullpen (which would set the record that year for most blown save opportunities- since broken by the Orioles) both Tony Phillips and Roberto Hernandez ripped him apart in The Sporting News. Paraphrasing their statements, they said the players have come to expect him to do nothing at the deadline and it was pissing the team off.

Hell without JR's intervention the Sox might have blown the 93 title too. Ownership had to get Schueler to trade that "stud" Johnny Ruffin in order to get Tim Belcher who shored up the rotation and was a god send in game #4 of the ALCS.

He was a OK G.M. for the Sox, certainly some were worse but he doesn't rank with Lane, Hemond, Williams or Short in my opinion.

And let's not dance around perhaps the worst sin of all...forcing Jeff Torborg out as field manager. The Sox were left with the sheer genius of Gene Lamont and the moron Terry Bevington.

You'll be seeing more about that little aside soon.

Lip

doublem23
05-20-2010, 06:03 PM
When those rare, unique chances come up, you roll the dice and go for broke, you don't flush them down the toilet by doing nothing (and history as well as yourself have shown and stated that out of all those "prospects" only Garland who to the best of my knowledge wasn't even mentioned in any trade talks given that he was an unknown, made any pitching contribution to the 2005 club.)

He didn't flush anything down the toilet, he correctly evaluated his in-house talent and realized there was nothing available worth the risk of losing some of those guys. Obviously not all of them panned out, but luckily KW was shrewd enough to keep those that did and turn those that didn't into other important pieces for what was a World Series winner.

You can bitch and moan about 1991 and 1996 all you want, but 2000 is a totally different story. Hindsight has proven Shueler played his hand 110% perfectly.

pudge
05-20-2010, 06:07 PM
Mike Mussina was also widely reported to be on the block in 2000. I have no idea how close the Orioles came to dealing him or to whom they may have been talking with.

Someone earlier said the Schueler got David Wells. He didn't, that was Kenny.

Looking back I guess I shouldn't have been surprtised at the lack of results at the trade deadline under Ron. He did the same things in 1991 and 1996 costing the Sox in my opinion, at least one post season spot. He was always concerned that if he were to trade such "studs" like Scott Ruffcorn, Rodney Bolton and their ilk they would come back to bite him on the rear end. A G.M. can't be afraid to look bad...all G.M.'s from the best to the worst are going to make mistakes. That's the nature of the job.

Lip

Honestly, who cares about the trades, I was shocked they didn't let Buehrle start a playoff game. They were even going to pitch Sean Lowe in Game 4, if you remember. Why not give the 21-yo who had looked awesome a chance? Everyone else on the staff was shot or injured. They had nothing to lose.

Brian26
05-20-2010, 07:43 PM
And yet you continue to dance around the point that a lot of the guys in the Sox farm system in 2000 either became key players in 2005 or were later used to acquire key players.

Thank you. And that's really my point in the very first post of this thread.

harwar
05-20-2010, 08:04 PM
i seem to remember a road trip where they swept the tribe and the yankees .. that was a great year because they were fun to watch and i wasn't sick yet

PKalltheway
05-20-2010, 08:31 PM
i seem to remember a road trip where they swept the tribe and the yankees .. that was a great year because they were fun to watch and i wasn't sick yet

Oh man, what a road trip. I vividly remember being so excited when the Sox absolutely kicked the Yankees' ass in that four-game series. IIRC, they outscored them 42-17 in the four-game sweep.

Medford Bobby
05-20-2010, 08:38 PM
I have a 2000 Pennant in my Sox collection of goodies......this is fun to review again the 2000 season.

Remember it started in spring training with: March 13, 2000

http://legendsrevealed.com/sports/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/0313_large.jpg

Brian26
05-20-2010, 09:14 PM
Oh man, what a road trip. I vividly remember being so excited when the Sox absolutely kicked the Yankees' ass in that four-game series. IIRC, they outscored them 42-17 in the four-game sweep.

Seven in a row. Three in Cleveland and then four in New York.

There is some amazing statistic that the Sox still hold regarding that road trip. I can't remember it exactly, but it's something to the effect that it's the only time in major league history a team has swept a seven game road trip against two teams with combined winning percentages as high as NY and Clev in the previous year.

tm1119
05-20-2010, 09:35 PM
I agree with your whole post expect for the part where you seem to think we have a farm to build off of. Hudson, Flowers, Morel, and Viciedo are the only guys in our system that i see that have a legit shot at being everyday players within the next few years, and even that is a shaky group of prospects. After that there are a few fringe prospects that could be platoon players or back end of the rotation guys like Danks, Morel, Shirek, and Nunez but they are far from guarantees. Basically, unless we can get some decent prospects for guys like Konerko, AJ, Jenks, and a few others before they leave its gonna take more than a few years for the cycle turns around and we are good again.

Either that or we deplete the farm even more and trade for some actual hitters and make another run for a world series.

asindc
05-20-2010, 09:38 PM
I agree with your whole post expect for the part where you seem to think we have a farm to build off of. Hudson, Flowers, Morel, and Viciedo are the only guys in our system that i see that have a legit shot at being everyday players within the next few years, and even that is a shaky group of prospects. After that there are a few fringe prospects that could be platoon players or back end of the rotation guys like Danks, Morel, Shirek, and Nunez but they are far from guarantees. Basically, unless we can get some decent prospects for guys like Konerko, AJ, Jenks, and a few others before they leave its gonna take more than a few years for the cycle turns around and we are good again.

Either that or we deplete the farm even more and trade for some actual hitters and make another run for a world series.

Don't forget about Mitchell.

tm1119
05-20-2010, 09:44 PM
Don't forget about Mitchell.

True. I did forget about him. Not really sure what his time table is though. Especially after the injury. Everyone keeps talking about how he needs to change his swing and all that, but he keeps performing at every level hes been to thus far(although not that high). Whos knows with him, he could be up at the end of next year or it could be 3 years if he goes through all the levels. With or without him the Sox future does not look bright if we are going to depend on our system to rebuild.

hawkjt
05-20-2010, 11:53 PM
Coincidentally,tonite during the rain delay,they showed the recap of the 2000 season. And after it was over,with the sad loss to Seattle in the playoffs...Hawk comes back on and say''That was a great team that got out-managed in the playoffs''....man,he hates Manuel.

Some good memories of going to games that year...Cal Eldred 1 hitter vs Orioles...Valentin's cycle....

Lip Man 1
05-21-2010, 12:01 AM
Hawk's right on the point of being out managed that's for sure.

Lip

Dub25
05-21-2010, 12:11 AM
Hawk's right on the point of being out managed that's for sure.

Lip

I don't agree with that. That team hit nothing but pop ups to shallow left field. I know because I was there.

Everyone wants to give Pinella credit because Mike Cameron was to dumd to pick up the signs from the 3rd base coach so Pinella went out and had to tell himself. For some reason everyone thinks that was a great move.

I didn't like Manual but I don't think he was out managed. His offense didn't show up and his starters were done.

Geez, Lip. I have a lot of respect for you but we have been dis-agreeing the last 2 nights. :scratch:

Lip Man 1
05-21-2010, 10:56 AM
Dub:

Between the stunt Piniella pulled to unnerve the team in game one, to the way it ended wit Manager Gandhi sitting on the bench after everyone saw where Guillen stepped on the plate on the bunt attempt, he was completely undressed as a field manager in my opinion.

Schueler didn't help matters but putting Josh Paul on the roster instead of Mark Johnson which I was told by some in the organization really upset the team.

Lipo

TommyJohn
05-21-2010, 03:07 PM
Dub:

Between the stunt Piniella pulled to unnerve the team in game one, to the way it ended wit Manager Gandhi sitting on the bench after everyone saw where Guillen stepped on the plate on the bunt attempt, he was completely undressed as a field manager in my opinion.

Schueler didn't help matters but putting Josh Paul on the roster instead of Mark Johnson which I was told by some in the organization really upset the team.

LipoWhy does Manuel constantly get ragged for not fighting at the end of Game 3? The ump missed the call, Seattle was celebrating, Jay was already banging out his gloating column-I just don't get what Manuel could have possibly done in that situation.