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GoGoCrede
05-19-2010, 11:10 PM
Just bringing over a thought I had in the postgame thread. I'm wondering how many of the fans out there have stuck a fork in the season.

For my part, I can't bring myself to give up until the end of next month or so. I'm stubborn and probably in denial. I'll also keep watching till the season is officially over. I really miss baseball in the offseason.

DirtySox
05-19-2010, 11:11 PM
Forked.

BadBobbyJenks
05-19-2010, 11:12 PM
Yep felt that while for a while. There is nothing KW can do this season to make this offense even average.

I will make sure I watch Danks and Peavy, and you can keep the rest of it.

JB98
05-19-2010, 11:12 PM
I have no confidence in the team or the people in charge.

Forked.

CLR01
05-19-2010, 11:12 PM
The fork has already fallen out of the charred remains... Other than that things are peachy with the Sox.

Nelfox02
05-19-2010, 11:13 PM
I have totally given up hope this team will win this divison

I will continue to watch games on TV

I will attend 1 game this season and that is it, only because I committed to go and it is my son's first game (this coming kids day)


I surrender the beach

ndgt10
05-19-2010, 11:13 PM
The good thing is there are plenty of cheap fantastic seats available. Compared to getting Hawks tickets, sox tickets are a cinch!

GoGoCrede
05-19-2010, 11:13 PM
The good thing is there are plenty of cheap fantastic seats available. Compared to getting Hawks tickets, sox tickets are a cinch!

Love me some cheap tickets. That's the one silver lining, I guess. :whiner:

tony1972
05-19-2010, 11:15 PM
Love me some cheap tickets. That's the one silver lining, I guess. :whiner:

No..I remember 2001 when the Sox were 14 and 29 around Memorial Day...they ended up over 500 by season's end. So there's always hope...

Zakath
05-19-2010, 11:15 PM
Not yet, if only because it's the AL Central and we haven't fallen 10 games behind yet.

Lip Man 1
05-19-2010, 11:15 PM
The only intertesting remains to this season are who will be traded, what will the Sox get for it and what may possibly happen with the field manager / upper management.

Other than that, I'm happy to have a number of tapes from better days to give me my baseball fix.

Lip

Slappy
05-19-2010, 11:16 PM
I've just about lost all interest. Wouldn't say I've stuck a fork in it...

thomas35forever
05-19-2010, 11:16 PM
I have a hard time getting excited for games anymore. I've actually stopped anticipating the prospect of a Sox game the day one's scheduled. That's how bad it's gotten.

The Hawks better win the Cup because there's nothing else to look forward to in this town right now.

sox1970
05-19-2010, 11:16 PM
I don't think this team will see .500 again this season. So yeah, it's over.

tsoxman
05-19-2010, 11:17 PM
Toast. And the fightening thing is, this team may be bad for a very long time.

Scottiehaswheels
05-19-2010, 11:18 PM
I'll watch occasionally but not going to go out of my way by any means. Having my first kid in a month so I'll prolly be occupied with other things to even notice until they start calling up people in Sept.

GoGoCrede
05-19-2010, 11:18 PM
I'll watch occasionally but not going to go out of my way by any means. Having my first kid in a month so I'll prolly be occupied with other things to even notice until they start calling up people up in Sept.

Well, congrats!!! :bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance::happybday

Slappy
05-19-2010, 11:19 PM
Congratulations!

Yeah, don't waste your time on this team when you've got something so awesome happening to you in little while.

voodoochile
05-19-2010, 11:19 PM
Not in my nature to give up on the team in May, but I'm not expecting much either. Hopefully I get proven wrong...

Nelfox02
05-19-2010, 11:19 PM
Toast. And the fightening thing is, this team may be bad for a very long time.


+1


I dont remember the last time my overall outlook for this organizatoin was so down

Scottiehaswheels
05-19-2010, 11:20 PM
Well, congrats!!! :bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance::happybday Thanks!

october23sp
05-19-2010, 11:20 PM
This team has been, as Ashton Kutcher would say, "Fork'd!"

DirtySox
05-19-2010, 11:22 PM
The only intertesting remains to this season are who will be traded, what will the Sox get for it and what may possibly happen with the field manager / upper management.

I'm also optimistic that some drastic changes will be made. I'd gladly support a Walker and/or Ozzie firing. I also wouldn't mind if Hahn takes over for KW. This organization needs a massive overhaul in many places.

Marqhead
05-19-2010, 11:22 PM
Not in my nature to give up on the team in May, but I'm not expecting much either. Hopefully I get proven wrong...

Optimism is a silly disease and I'll always have a strong case of it with the Sox. I guess I just love White Sox baseball that much. Always hope for the best, and I and try not to get too down when the worst happens.

(This does not mean I am happy with the state of management or the team)

JB98
05-19-2010, 11:24 PM
I'm also optimistic that some drastic changes will be made. I'd gladly support a Walker and/or Ozzie firing. I also wouldn't mind if Hahn takes over for KW. This organization needs a massive overhaul in many places.

Yeah, the current dynamic has gone stale.

GoGoCrede
05-19-2010, 11:25 PM
Can't wait to see how the management will spin this season on the reality show in July.

Coops4Aces
05-19-2010, 11:25 PM
You guys are such fake fans!

But God help me, I still live and die with each game.

Slappy
05-19-2010, 11:27 PM
If you plan on watching .400 ball for the rest of the season, you'll be dying pretty prematurely.

Scottiehaswheels
05-19-2010, 11:32 PM
If you plan on watching .400 ball for the rest of the season, you'll be dying pretty prematurely.Why? Do they get to play the Charlotte Knights? Oh wait, they lost to our AAA team too... :angry:

Brian26
05-19-2010, 11:32 PM
No..I remember 2001 when the Sox were 14 and 29 around Memorial Day...they ended up over 500 by season's end. So there's always hope...

If only Jose Canseco was available off the waiver wire this year. Too bad he's not playing independent ball in the northeast.

Brian26
05-19-2010, 11:34 PM
Toast. And the fightening thing is, this team may be bad for a very long time.

I said it before. This team is approaching a crossroads that it hasn't seen since about 1998. Things are going to be ugly for awhile.

thomas35forever
05-19-2010, 11:36 PM
Can't wait to see how the management will spin this season on the reality show in July.
Ugh. I'm not even looking forward to it the way I once did. This poor start has highly contributed to that. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they pulled the plug on it. At least with the Phillies last year, they had winning to talk about.

october23sp
05-19-2010, 11:37 PM
Ugh. I'm not even looking forward to it the way I once did. This poor start has highly contributed to that. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they pulled the plug on it. At least with the Phillies last year, they had winning to talk about.

It's gunna suck to watch that show with how ****ty our team is. The Club, featuring the last place White Sox!

NLaloosh
05-19-2010, 11:38 PM
The only intertesting remains to this season are who will be traded, what will the Sox get for it and what may possibly happen with the field manager / upper management.

Other than that, I'm happy to have a number of tapes from better days to give me my baseball fix.

Lip

Yes, that would be very interesting if the Sox were willing to do the things they need to do. But, since they won't they will deny us fans even this.

They will do a half-assed rebuilding job moving only a few peices and probably not the right ones. And, most of the staff and management will remain. That's my prediction.

Baron
05-19-2010, 11:39 PM
Im just waiting for them to call someone up.....*Cough* Tyler Flowers *Cough*....I dont have any hope for the season but I do want to watch the young guys play...Ill continue watching the games this season...but only for that reason..

NLaloosh
05-19-2010, 11:40 PM
Would it be more exciting if the Sox were getting the #1 draft pick?

Scottiehaswheels
05-19-2010, 11:42 PM
Would it be more exciting if the Sox were getting the #1 draft pick?They'd just pass on the best and pick someone slotted for the 3rd round anyways...

DirtySox
05-19-2010, 11:42 PM
Would it be more exciting if the Sox were getting the #1 draft pick?

Hell yes.

guillensdisciple
05-19-2010, 11:44 PM
Not yet, not just yet. There has to be a point where everything comes together.

I don't understand how so many people can under perform for the rest of the year.

SI1020
05-19-2010, 11:47 PM
I've tried to retain a little hope but now I've got the fork out.

Scottiehaswheels
05-19-2010, 11:47 PM
Not yet, not just yet. There has to be a point where everything comes together.

I don't understand how so many people can under perform for the rest of the year.Apparently no one has watched Sox baseball since like '06? They suck even worse the second half consistently. I wouldn't be shocked to see our team BA at the Mendoza line by the end of the year. Course, that might be an improvement?

Rockabilly
05-19-2010, 11:48 PM
I gave up on this lousy team on May 1st..

DickAllen72
05-19-2010, 11:54 PM
Im just waiting for them to call someone up.....*Cough* Tyler Flowers *Cough*....I dont have any hope for the season but I do want to watch the young guys play...Ill continue watching the games this season...but only for that reason..
You mean the same Tyler Flowers who is hitting .246 with 42 strkeouts in 32 games playing in a bandbox in AAA? That Tyler Flowers?

DickAllen72
05-19-2010, 11:56 PM
The only intertesting remains to this season are who will be traded, what will the Sox get for it and what may possibly happen with the field manager / upper management.

Other than that, I'm happy to have a number of tapes from better days to give me my baseball fix.

Lip
If only they could trade Beckham, Quentin and Teahen.....but who would want them?

First fire Ozzie and Walker though.

Baron
05-19-2010, 11:57 PM
You mean the same Tyler Flowers who is hitting .246 with 42 strkeouts in 32 games playing in a bandbox in AAA? That Tyler Flowers?


Thats the one....honestly I rather see what he has got to offer over the garbage Ive been watching from this team everyday

Harry Potter
05-19-2010, 11:57 PM
They'd just pass on the best and pick someone slotted for the 3rd round anyways...

I'm sure there's another Guillen or Williams they could draft

Noneck
05-19-2010, 11:58 PM
Ive given up on many a season in my day. This wasnt that bad because I looked ahead to the future and thought that seasons like this wouldn't happen that often. Even in the 70's, a lost season didn't bother me much because I looked ahead. Maybe being a lot younger then made looking ahead easier.

This year is different than the 50 years previous for me. This is mainly do to getting longer in the tooth every day. I look on stub hub, WSI ticket exchange and other sites that sells tickets. Every up coming game has seats that no one but a long time season ticket holder could get in the past, AT BELOW FACE. People that want to go to a ball game this summer will be buying their tics that way. The number of tickets sold by the Sox for the rest of the year will be extremely minimal. I now see the Sox drawing below 2m. Along with that, next years season ticket sales will take a big hit.

The result of this big loss of revenue will be a big cut in expenses. Of these expenses next year ,the Sox will have 3 players that will comprise about 50% of the teams salary. They have no prospects and their farm system is in total shambles.

This is why I have never felt as bad about the Sox and their future as I do now. Maybe if you are in your 20's and planning a family now, its not that bad. Hopefully the turn around will come when your kid is in pony league.

shingo10
05-19-2010, 11:58 PM
For those who haven't seen it, here's a recap of the Kenny meeting pre-game.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=38205

Apparently, KW hasn't stuck a fork in us yet.

Dick Allen
05-20-2010, 12:00 AM
I've stuck a fork, a knife, and whatever other utensil I can find, in this team. I can't even remember the last time I gave up on a season by the first week of May. Depressing, since White Sox baseball is usually a significant part of my summers.

Scottiehaswheels
05-20-2010, 12:00 AM
Apparently, KW hasn't stuck a fork in us yet.Apparently, getting a Stanford degree isn't what it's cracked up to be anymore.

kittle42
05-20-2010, 12:02 AM
Fork.

And not because of my usual pessimism - it's because this team is almost exactly what it looked like it would be (and was predicted to be by many maligned publications and pundits around these parts) before the season even started.

This could end up being one of the worst teams of my lifetime, and that includes teams that had Ivan Calderon leading in HRs with some number in the teens.

sox1970
05-20-2010, 12:03 AM
Apparently, getting a Stanford degree isn't what it's cracked up to be anymore.

I think they've all talked each other into thinking they're better than they are. They probably are, but it's still not good enough. If they still think they can win 90 games, they're fooling themselves.

thomas35forever
05-20-2010, 12:04 AM
Fork.

And not because of my usual pessimism - it's because this team is almost exactly what it looked like it would be (and was predicted to be by many maligned publications and pundits around these parts) before the season even started.

This could end up being one of the worst teams of my lifetime, and that includes teams that had Ivan Calderon leading in HRs with some number in the teens.
We're currently on pace to lose 96 games and this team looks like it's capable of doing that. The 2007 team may not hold a candle to this one.

kittle42
05-20-2010, 12:05 AM
The number of tickets sold by the Sox for the rest of the year will be extremely minimal. I now see the Sox drawing below 2m. Along with that, next years season ticket sales will take a big hit.

They'll be losing my season ticket business. You know the most games I ever went to was in 2005? 42 regular season + playoff games - and that was the season BEFORE I became a ST holder.

Screw it. The perks aren't worth it when you can't unload a ticket to save your life.

Scottiehaswheels
05-20-2010, 12:10 AM
I think they've all talked each other into thinking they're better than they are. They probably are, but it's still not good enough. If they still think they can win 90 games, they're fooling themselves.We're one injury away from a 100 loss season, Konerko or Rios go down..... :whoflungpoo

Noneck
05-20-2010, 12:14 AM
They'll be losing my season ticket business. You know the most games I ever went to was in 2005? 42 regular season + playoff games - and that was the season BEFORE I became a ST holder.

Screw it. The perks aren't worth it when you can't unload a ticket to save your life.

I know someone that dreams about getting 50 cents on a dollar for his seats like I dream about catching a Pick 4.

I feel for you and others in this situation.

dwalteroo
05-20-2010, 12:15 AM
I dont remember the last time my overall outlook for this organizatoin was so down

The cycle we are getting into is what is so worrisome. Bad play means fewer fans at the park, fewer fans means fewer dollars to spend next year, means fewer fans at the park, rinse and repeat. I know the Sox caught lightening in a bottle in '05 with the payroll they had, and that they can do it again, it just sucks that we haven't been able to do more with these "high spending" years.

Noneck
05-20-2010, 12:20 AM
I know the Sox caught lightening in a bottle in '05 with the payroll they had, and that they can do it again,


Please don't fool yourself, catching lighting in a bottle usually doesn't happen in ones lifetime, it didn't in my fathers. So don't expect it to happen twice in yours.

Harry Potter
05-20-2010, 12:25 AM
They'll be losing my season ticket business. You know the most games I ever went to was in 2005? 42 regular season + playoff games - and that was the season BEFORE I became a ST holder.

Screw it. The perks aren't worth it when you can't unload a ticket to save your life.

It absolutely is a buyers market right now. The few games in my ST plan that I've tried to sell, I've had to damn near slash prices in half. On top of that, when you put those "discounts" on StubHub, you still have to factor in the fact that StubHub keeps their 15% commission.

I can't wait til they send out the playoff invoices to us ST holders!


The cycle we are getting into is what is so worrisome. Bad play means fewer fans at the park, fewer fans means fewer dollars to spend next year, means fewer fans at the park, rinse and repeat. I know the Sox caught lightening in a bottle in '05 with the payroll they had, and that they can do it again, it just sucks that we haven't been able to do more with these "high spending" years.

It's a damn shame we failed miserably to capitalize on the momentum we had after 2005. One playoff year, one 90-win and just missed the playoffs year, and quite possibly 3 pathetic showings in the other years after we won the title.

captain54
05-20-2010, 12:59 AM
I will always be a Sox fan, but I can't remember being this disgusted with the organization in a long, long time. KW, Ozzie, JR, Walker, the players....they all leave a bad taste in my mouth....I have absolutely no
desire to go to a game AT ALL this year to sit there and watch this crap.

I'm done for this year.....truly done...

mbwhitesox
05-20-2010, 02:35 AM
I've accepted the fact that this is just not a very good team, but I'm not going to stop paying attention to them. It's just not summer without baseball, good or bad.

I won't be following the standings closely or anything but I'll still watch most every game I can and I still plan on attending a few games over the summer. Yeah this team is very frustrating to watch, but I'll never stop being a Sox fan.

voodoochile
05-20-2010, 02:43 AM
Please don't fool yourself, catching lighting in a bottle usually doesn't happen in ones lifetime, it didn't in my fathers. So don't expect it to happen twice in yours.

Well I kind of expect to outlive JR and KW/OG's reign as the guys in charge of running the team, so I'm not worried. I do expect to see another championship in my lifetime even if it means a regime change before it can happen...

jabrch
05-20-2010, 02:49 AM
Depends on your definition of "stick a fork".

Is there 0% chance of them rebounding to have a successful season? I believe not. Am I betting on them to win the World Series? Nope. The question is where in the middle they fall.

Either way, I enjoy the potential Sox baseball has each day. So I surely am not stopping paying attention to them.

LITTLE NELL
05-20-2010, 07:16 AM
Depends on your definition of "stick a fork".

Is there 0% chance of them rebounding to have a successful season? I believe not. Am I betting on them to win the World Series? Nope. The question is where in the middle they fall.

Either way, I enjoy the potential Sox baseball has each day. So I surely am not stopping paying attention to them.

Not quite yet, one hot week puts them back to .500 and who knows from there.

asindc
05-20-2010, 09:32 AM
For those who haven't seen it, here's a recap of the Kenny meeting pre-game.

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=38205

Apparently, KW hasn't stuck a fork in us yet.

Apparently, getting a Stanford degree isn't what it's cracked up to be anymore.

I certainly don't blame fans if they have given up hope on the season this early, but I would consider it a fireable/tradeable/releasable offense if anyone in management or the roster did so. I don't want to hear that quitter bull**** from any Sox players on May 20 while less than 10 games back.

Jerko
05-20-2010, 09:49 AM
I traded in an unused season ticket for last night's game..........and didn't go. (other factors came into play, not just the Sox). I still have my weekend package and I plan on attending most of those games, but it doesn't bother me anymore if I don't go. Luckily I can still sell mine for face because they are on the weekend, but I couldn't give last night's ticket away. I still act like the Sox can win but they are about as exciting as watching paint dry.

russ99
05-20-2010, 09:54 AM
Even if the season's lost, I'm still going to the games and enjoy myself, as it should be.

I'm giving them 2 weeks, and by then if they can't turn it around, give up at the exact moment of the first fire sale trade.

I can't understand this organization's bull-headedness to not fire a certain hitting coach. When there's little sign of positive movement, something has to change.

To all those 2005 bandwagoners, see ya, you won't be missed.

g0g0
05-20-2010, 09:58 AM
Nope, haven't stuck a fork in them yet. 9 games can be made up, though I'd hate to see what we look like in post season play if we actually made it! :(:

CLR01
05-20-2010, 10:08 AM
To all those 2005 bandwagoners, see ya, you won't be missed.


:rolleyes:

Noneck
05-20-2010, 10:08 AM
Well I kind of expect to outlive JR and KW/OG's reign as the guys in charge of running the team, so I'm not worried. I do expect to see another championship in my lifetime even if it means a regime change before it can happen...

I hope I am fortunate enough to see that reign change also. Maybe that would give me hope.

Procol Harum
05-20-2010, 10:17 AM
Yep, pull the fork out--this team looks done. Worst of all, from the apparently wretched state of the Sox farm system (and the long-term inability of anybody they bring up to play fundamental beisbol), it's hard to see this turning around in any meaningful way for a while...

But, as GoGo mentioned earlier in the thread, on the good side when I do go to a game it'll be easy to get good seats--and the exit out of the parking lot should be much smoother...

CPditka
05-20-2010, 10:43 AM
Im pretty darn close... doesnt mean I wont go to a few games, but competitive this team aint, at least not now.

The worst part is wasting a great season so far by John Danks.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-20-2010, 11:05 AM
The playoff chance is over. The Twins are damn good and the Tigers are swinging the bats really well and playing pretty good baseball. We would have to win 90+ games to win the division. That means going 74-49 from tonight on. Is that possible? I guess. Is it likely with this team in the American League? No.

Does that mean I am going to stop watching and sell all my season tickets? No. But, I am going to watch the games and think about this season differently. I can't help it.

khan
05-20-2010, 11:52 AM
I'm stunned that a lot of the "wait and see" types from this past offseason are so quick to stick a fork in this team.

I had significant doubts about this team going back to last season, and unfortunately, many of them have come to pass.

I will always cheer the 25 men that defend our colors. But I have doubted this team would be anything of note, so I suppose that since my expectations have been so low that I'm not as angered as others.

This team is a case-study in terms of what NOT to do when you have a ****ty minor league system. KW/JR should have bit the bullet, and been more active in the free agent market, if only to spare the already-empty minor league system from further depletion. Well that, AND to give whatever pieces there are down there more time to mature into SOX players or FUTURE trading pieces.

tstrike2000
05-20-2010, 12:03 PM
Forked. Unless there's some sort of personnel change in the coaching ranks and at least a couple of more guys turning it around offensively, I don't see the Sox making a run at this division.

Tragg
05-20-2010, 12:03 PM
I think 72 wins will be a challenge for this bunch, but I'll still follow the team game by game.
The Williams give-away parade will start in about a month and Ozzie will be sifting through the call-ups for his next Jerry Owens find.

Kittle'sNeighbor
05-20-2010, 12:25 PM
Every year it's the same story... Paulie is on fire, Dye can't hit cr*p... Dye's on fire, CQ's can't hit s**t... CQ's on fire, Paulie's can't get it out of the infield...

There is no doubt that everyone on this team CAN hit... they all HAVE. They just never do at the same time. Hasn't happened since '06. Who's fault is that? Jerry R's! For not making KW make OG fire Greg Walker. Now he's even messed up Jaun Pierre. JP hits .290 in his sleep and even in part time duty. Greg Walker has him batting 23 points under his WORST career avg and 50 points under his career avg.

After watching Ron Turner for years, I've realized one thing... People don't do the honorable thing and step down when they are failing, they have to be fired.

Mod Edit: the one in red is a language filter violation. The one in bright green is not. That's why we ask posters not to try to self censor but to merely type words exactly as they are spelled and let the filter do its job. If you have any questions, refer to the stuck thread at the top of this forum on the rules.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-20-2010, 12:40 PM
Mod Edit: Please don't quote posts with language violations. Makes the cleanup harder. Thanks.

Have you not payed attention to ANY of the hitting coach discussions? We have been round and round about this.

Juan Pierre doesn't need a ****ing hitting coach. He is getting older and his skills are diminishing. Gordon Beckham has come out and said he hasn't gone to Greg Walker. Another example is that Jim Thome only went to the hitting coach when he felt something different that was working and he wanted video evidence to back it up. Oh, and Derrick Lee (who has had a damn good career) says he is his own hitting coach. Edit: And, those are just a few of the examples I have found or heard.

Greg Walker and his staff do the same pre-game/pre-series prep that everyone else does. Do I care if he is fired? Nope. Will it help? According to all the player reports I've been reading about the benefit of hitting coaches...no, I don't think it will help. Maybe a guy or two might get a little bit of help from a new hitting coach. But, maybe a guy or two struggles even more after the new coach comes. This are naturally gifted athletes who have been swinging the bat the same way years. All the video on pitchers is out there. All the video on players swings is out there. It is up to the PLAYERS if they utilize the hitting coach or not.

GoGoCrede
05-20-2010, 12:47 PM
To all those 2005 bandwagoners, see ya, you won't be missed.

Huh? :rolleyes:

Also, if 2007 wasn't enough to chase off the "bandwagoners," nothing will.

chisoxfan4life
05-20-2010, 12:53 PM
This team is way too good to be this bad all season. We've played a relatively tough schedule, the Twins haven't. It's a longggg season and we're only 1/4 of the way through it. It sickens me that seemingly 90% of you have given up. There is no chance in hell the team ends the season hitting .230 and having an ERA of 4.50.

Sox fans are so pessimistic..

Hitmen77
05-20-2010, 12:55 PM
Yep, stick a fork in them.

I thought this was a .500 or so team going into the season and they've shown themselves to be far worse. This is NOT the 1983 team, so get over the idea that this team will bounce back and storm the division too.

What makes me most angry is that we knew during the offseason that Kenny and Ozzie's plan to have no full time DH and give a roster spot to a 43 year old who can't hit anymore was a crock of ****. No, it isn't just one position or one player that has sunk this team, but when regulars have struggled so far, KW and OG (yes, he's the one who said we didn't need a DH) saw to it that there was nobody on the team to pick these guys up. A few less low scoring losses and we wouldn't be so buried in the standings.

I'm tired of 4 years of empty promises from KW and OG and Walker that this team will get better at fundamentals. They've had plenty of time to stock their lineup and farm system with these "Ozzie ball" and we're as bad as ever. It's just empty promises. Players have come and gone over 4 years and it's still the same underachieving result....but we're sticking with the same old coaches because they have no responsibility for what has happened since 2006.
At least they shook up the minor league system a couple of years ago and that may be producing results soon.

We couldn't afford any more hitting, but we could afford to pay Pierre $8 million over the next 2 years and to sign Teahen to a generous 3 year/$14 million contract. It's not cheapness, it's squandering our payroll on lousy players.

I've stopped watching this team. I just don't care to see the same old crap every night. They're utterly predictable in their incompetence that there is no thrill in watching. I've got tickets to 3 games already purchased for the rest of the season. I guess I should have held out and just bought those on StubHub at the last minute for dirt cheap as people look to unload their tickets.

The Twins and Tigers aren't going anywhere (...and I mean not just this year). The Sox better get their act together. If they think they can compete with the likes of Teahen, Kotsay, and Pierre in our every day lineup then we might be waiting a long time for a contender on the South Side.

Kittle'sNeighbor
05-20-2010, 12:57 PM
Have you not payed attention to ANY of the hitting coach discussions? We have been round and round about this.

Juan Pierre doesn't need a ****ing hitting coach. He is getting older and his skills are diminishing. Gordon Beckham has come out and said he hasn't gone to Greg Walker. Another example is that Jim Thome only went to the hitting coach when he felt something different that was working and he wanted video evidence to back it up. Oh, and Derrick Lee (who has had a damn good career) says he is his own hitting coach. Edit: And, those are just a few of the examples I have found or heard.

Greg Walker and his staff do the same pre-game/pre-series prep that everyone else does. Do I care if he is fired? Nope. Will it help? According to all the player reports I've been reading about the benefit of hitting coaches...no, I don't think it will help. Maybe a guy or two might get a little bit of help from a new hitting coach. But, maybe a guy or two struggles even more after the new coach comes. This are naturally gifted athletes who have been swinging the bat the same way years. All the video on pitchers is out there. All the video on players swings is out there. It is up to the PLAYERS if they utilize the hitting coach or not.

No. I haven't paid attention to the other discussions.

Why are Pierre's skills diminishing??? His results haven't until this year.

If a hitting coach isn't responsible for the teams hitting why have one? Who IS responsible? Let's delete the position and use the money to aquire some more bullpen help then since we can't depend on multi millionaires to be professional and hit like they are suppossed to...

How do we fix the Sox inability to hit as a team? How?


.

sox1970
05-20-2010, 12:59 PM
This team is way too good to be this bad all season. We've played a relatively tough schedule, the Twins haven't. It's a longggg season and we're only 1/4 of the way through it. It sickens me that seemingly 90% of you have given up. There is no chance in hell the team ends the season hitting .230 and having an ERA of 4.50.

Sox fans are so pessimistic..

The Twins and Tigers will both be sniffing 90 wins this year. Do you honestly think this White Sox team can go 75-49 the rest of the way? Take a look at the second half schedule....I have news for you...the Sox just played their easiest quarter of baseball, and they failed miserably. To me, the Sox have to be 47-40 or better at the All star break. Good luck going 31-17 from here to the break.

captain54
05-20-2010, 01:01 PM
Do I care if he is fired? Nope. Will it help? According to all the player reports I've been reading about the benefit of hitting coaches...no, I don't think it will help. .

Yes, it would help. The Walker apologists themselves have stated time and time again that the hitting coach makes no difference, its up to the players. Any logical person would conclude from this argument that the hitting coach is a non factor.

The organization is in for a rough ride. I guarantee attendance will take a major hit this year and probably next, and who knows how long it'll back to some decent numbers at the Cell.

The fans have NOTHING to look forward to except the prospect of what changes are in store to right this ship. Would Walker be the sacrificial lamb if he was let go. Absolutely.

Sorry Greg, you can't expect you just sit back and collect a pay check with the current situation. The offensive numbers aren't there and the fans will staying away in droves. You're probably a knowledgeable, well meaning guy, but its not happening. You've ridden a sweet gig and sat back with the benefit and loyalty of a boss that most don't have the luxury of. If this was NY, Boston, or Philly you would probably need 24/7 private security. Time to move on, my friend

Kittle'sNeighbor
05-20-2010, 01:05 PM
Yes, it would help. The Walker apologists themselves have stated time and time again that the hitting coach makes no difference, its up to the players. Any logical person would conclude from this argument that the
hitting coach is a non factor.

The organization is in for a rough ride. I guarantee attendance will take a major hit this year and probably next, and who knows how long it'll back to some decent numbers at the Cell.

The fans have NOTHING to look forward to except the prospect of what changes are in store to right this ship. Would Walker be the sacrificial lamb if he was let go. Absolutely.

Sorry Greg, you can't expect you just sit back and collect a pay check with the current situation. The offensive numbers aren't there and the fans will staying away in droves. You're probably a knowledgeable, well meaning guy, but its not happening. You've rode a sweet gig and sat back with the benefit and loyalty of a boss that most don't have the luxury of. Time to move on, my friend

Exactly.

This is America where you are accountable for your performance well at least if you are in management...

.

kufram
05-20-2010, 01:24 PM
This team is way too good to be this bad all season. We've played a relatively tough schedule, the Twins haven't. It's a longggg season and we're only 1/4 of the way through it. It sickens me that seemingly 90% of you have given up. There is no chance in hell the team ends the season hitting .230 and having an ERA of 4.50.

Sox fans are so pessimistic..


Still too early to give up in my opinion. Frustrating as it has been so far I can't believe this team is this bad. If it does turn around I don't want to be one who jumped ship. Our record is bad but we haven't lost more than 3 in a row either have we? I wonder if the Angel fans are jumping... or are Red Sox fans jumping?

Smokey Burg
05-20-2010, 01:30 PM
Haven't given up yet. Sure would like to see 4 - 5 game win streaks become the norm in June.

kittle42
05-20-2010, 01:34 PM
Exactly.

This is America where you are accountable for your performance well at least if you are in management...

I'm pretty sure there's not a successful business in the world (even outside America) that doesn't generally hold management accountable.

SI1020
05-20-2010, 01:39 PM
I'm pretty sure there's not a successful business in the world (even outside America) that doesn't generally hold management accountable. What he said.

JB98
05-20-2010, 01:41 PM
Still too early to give up in my opinion. Frustrating as it has been so far I can't believe this team is this bad. If it does turn around I don't want to be one who jumped ship. Our record is bad but we haven't lost more than 3 in a row either have we? I wonder if the Angel fans are jumping... or are Red Sox fans jumping?

The club has lost four in a row twice, with the Cleveland Indians being the common denominator in both losing streaks.

The four-game skids came from April 7-10 (two games vs. CLE, two vs. MIN) and from April 15-18 (one vs. TOR, three vs. CLE).

Red Sox fans are most certainly jumping. Not sure if Angel fans really care that much. In any case, both those organizations have a better track record than the White Sox over the past decade.

Kittle'sNeighbor
05-20-2010, 02:01 PM
I'm pretty sure there's not a successful business in the world (even outside America) that doesn't generally hold management accountable.

That's what I said...

kufram
05-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Exactly.

This is America where you are accountable for your performance well at least if you are in management...

.


Banks? Car manufacturers?

jabrch
05-20-2010, 02:15 PM
Banks? Car manufacturers?


Politicians...oil companies...CEOs...

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-20-2010, 02:28 PM
Fork is out of the silverware drawer, on the counter.....

Just not ready yet. I keep hoping that I won't need it.

Sadly, it gets closer to the pate every day.

kittle42
05-20-2010, 02:52 PM
That's what I said...

I know. Just didn't quite get the emphasis on America. Same holds true everywhere.

white sox bill
05-20-2010, 03:51 PM
Well if we are still this bad in a month, I'll say Fork it!

Start watching more movies at night, read some books I've been meaning to read, do bike riding. Not that I wouldn't watch Sox play anymore, just wouldn't watch every pitch every play every game

voodoochile
05-20-2010, 03:56 PM
Exactly.

This is America where you are accountable for your performance well at least if you are in management...

.

Banks? Car manufacturers?

Politicians...oil companies...CEOs...

Let's leave it there, please. Don't hijack this thread into politics...

WhiteSox1989
05-20-2010, 04:24 PM
I'm a pretty optimistic person, so no.

wassagstdu
05-20-2010, 06:20 PM
I don't need a fork. I can smell them burning.

Domeshot17
05-20-2010, 07:16 PM
The only ones without a fork in the team are the ones with the fork in the Crow.

harwar
05-20-2010, 08:25 PM
i'll still watch every game as i have always done, even during the worst years, but it sure can get frustrating

Daver
05-20-2010, 08:53 PM
40 games is not a season, but I had little optimism for this team from ST, though I did think the starting pitching would be better.

SI1020
05-29-2010, 09:18 PM
I've tried to retain a little hope but now I've got the fork out. Held out as long as I could. Stick a fork in them they are done.

Dan H
05-29-2010, 09:28 PM
The season is done. And I wish fans would stop comparing this team to Sox teams of the past. One has nothing to do with the other. The 2010 team will not rebound just because the 1983 team did or because the '05 Astros did. It is time for real change but sadly Reinsdorf won't sell. We are stuck with losing and Hawk making excuses.

thomas35forever
05-29-2010, 09:30 PM
The season is done. And I wish fans would stop comparing this team to Sox teams of the past. One has nothing to do with the other. The 2010 team will not rebound just because the 1983 team did or because the '05 Astros did. It is time for real change but sadly Reinsdorf won't sell. We are stuck with losing and Hawk making excuses.
:reinsy
"Do you really want me to Cell, er...sell?

Craig Grebeck
05-29-2010, 09:37 PM
:reinsy
"Do you really want me to Cell, er...sell?
Yes.

Brian26
05-29-2010, 09:48 PM
It is time for real change but sadly Reinsdorf won't sell. We are stuck with losing and Hawk making excuses.

How is a new owner going to magically make the Sox win? I hope you're not going to go with the payroll argument.

manders_01
05-29-2010, 10:01 PM
Not the season, but I will admit I did put one in tonight's game. I missed the first 4 innings and when the Rays took the lead, since I wasn't watching but listening, I decided to let the Rockies have the volume tonight.

Frater Perdurabo
05-29-2010, 10:30 PM
Between Mark Teahen's terrible defense and the overall lack of defensive fundamentals in the infield, this team is deeply flawed.

bunty_doghunter
05-29-2010, 10:50 PM
Let's leave it there, please. Don't hijack this thread into politics...
Impeach Ozzie.

Mmmm...peaches...

russ99
05-29-2010, 11:07 PM
What is up with our starters? I thought that was the strength of the team?

StillMissOzzie
05-30-2010, 01:14 AM
Not being at .500 by the end of May makes it pretty hard to stay optimistic. I will still go to the 4 or 5 games I have tickets for, and maybe I will look into these StubHub bargains I keep reading about for another game or two. But realisticlly, I think that the post-season is a pipe dream for 2010, Since the Bears are looking like another 7-9 season without the playoffs again, baseball is all I have to cling to. Beside, both KW and Hendry should be sending cigars and champagne to the Blackhawks for keeping the spotlight off of them for so long.


Not quite yet, one hot week puts them back to .500 and who knows from there. And one more losing streak will start up the fire sale. Which scenario seems more likely?

The club has lost four in a row twice, with the Cleveland Indians being the common denominator in both losing streaks.

The four-game skids came from April 7-10 (two games vs. CLE, two vs. MIN) and from April 15-18 (one vs. TOR, three vs. CLE).
See that is the worst part of it. It's not just the losing, it's who the Sox are losing to - teams we all thought they'd be mopping up with.

SMO
:mad::whiner::gulp:

LongLiveFisk
05-30-2010, 01:47 AM
The season is done. And I wish fans would stop comparing this team to Sox teams of the past. One has nothing to do with the other. The 2010 team will not rebound just because the 1983 team did or because the '05 Astros did. It is time for real change but sadly Reinsdorf won't sell. We are stuck with losing and Hawk making excuses.

Well, I haven't given up just yet, but I am definitely not making the '83 comparisons as readily as I had even earlier this month. There just seem to be too many things going wrong at once. :(:

Nellie_Fox
05-30-2010, 02:06 AM
Why do people always have to exaggerate the positions of others? I don't think anybody said that the Sox WILL come back because the '83 Sox and the '05 Astros did. They just pointed out the evidence that it's not impossible to turn a season around after a bad start, and used those teams as evidence.

TommyJohn
05-30-2010, 03:09 AM
The season is done. And I wish fans would stop comparing this team to Sox teams of the past. One has nothing to do with the other. The 2010 team will not rebound just because the 1983 team did or because the '05 Astros did. It is time for real change but sadly Reinsdorf won't sell. We are stuck with losing and Hawk making excuses.
Really? Does that apply also to yourself, Dan? I recall you making comparisons between recent Sox teams and the 1970 56-106 Sox. It seemed whenever the Sox would go on a 3 game losing streak, you were there to compare them to the 1970 team.

Dan H
05-30-2010, 09:13 AM
How is a new owner going to magically make the Sox win? I hope you're not going to go with the payroll argument.

It goes further than payroll, and I am not going to make that argument. I thought after '05, the White Sox would become one of the elite franchises in the AL whether they went to another World Series or not. Instead they went back to the same pattern of having a great season or two to be followed by losing or so-so baseball. The group headed by Reinsdorf has done some good and even great things. But they have had the team for 30 seasons now and success has been sporadic. Will a new owner produce magic? No. But look what a new owner did for the Black Hawks.

Dan H
05-30-2010, 09:22 AM
Why do people always have to exaggerate the positions of others? I don't think anybody said that the Sox WILL come back because the '83 Sox and the '05 Astros did. They just pointed out the evidence that it's not impossible to turn a season around after a bad start, and used those teams as evidence.

But those teams are not evidence of anything because they have nothing to do with the 2010 White Sox. Having said this, I have nothing against having hope. I am still hoping they salvage something from this season although I see little evidence of that happening. In the long run, I hope that management sees some significant change has to be made to turn things around. But fans and the team have to come out of this state of denial. This team needs help. And it needs help badly.

Brian26
05-30-2010, 10:18 AM
It goes further than payroll, and I am not going to make that argument. I thought after '05, the White Sox would become one of the elite franchises in the AL whether they went to another World Series or not. Instead they went back to the same pattern of having a great season or two to be followed by losing or so-so baseball. The group headed by Reinsdorf has done some good and even great things. But they have had the team for 30 seasons now and success has been sporadic. Will a new owner produce magic? No. But look what a new owner did for the Black Hawks.

Isn't winning sporadic for every team? It's baseball. There are 30 teams, and you don't expect to make the playoffs or World Series every season. Reinsdorf raised payroll in 2005, and the Sox were ranked 4th and 5th in payroll for three straight seasons before dropping to 6th and then 7th.

God Bless the Hawks, but you're living in a dream world if you expect their success to be prolonged. This is one of those magical years where everything seemed to come together, but that should be as much attributed to the moves that happened before old man Wirtz died than anything that's happened since (which is mostly marketing related).

Medford Bobby
05-30-2010, 10:38 AM
I'll watch occasionally but not going to go out of my way by any means. Having my first kid in a month so I'll prolly be occupied with other things to even notice until they start calling up people in Sept.
Congrats!! It's a toss up....White Sox baseball or...changing diapers. ( Hint....there is less crap coming from a newborn):o:

harwar
05-30-2010, 11:28 AM
forget about last night .. go out and play well today .. get the split .. move on ..

tsoxman
05-30-2010, 11:32 AM
Isn't winning sporadic for every team? It's baseball. There are 30 teams, and you don't expect to make the playoffs or World Series every season. Reinsdorf raised payroll in 2005, and the Sox were ranked 4th and 5th in payroll for three straight seasons before dropping to 6th and then 7th.

God Bless the Hawks, but you're living in a dream world if you expect their success to be prolonged. This is one of those magical years where everything seemed to come together, but that should be as much attributed to the moves that happened before old man Wirtz died than anything that's happened since (which is mostly marketing related).
Yes, the Sox have done a good job raising the payroll, but just beacuse they are spending more does not mean that they are spending it wisely. The three moves that they have made in the past year (getting rid of serviceable and young, inexpensive guys (Ely, Richard) and casting their lot to expensive flops (Peavy, Pierrs, Teahen ) rank as some of some of the worst moves I have ever seen this organization make.

I don't fault Jerry, but I do hope that he recoznizes that his GM has placed the present and future of this organization in deep trouble.

russ99
05-30-2010, 01:15 PM
Yes, the Sox have done a good job raising the payroll, but just beacuse they are spending more does not mean that they are spending it wisely. The three moves that they have made in the past year (getting rid of serviceable and young, inexpensive guys (Ely, Richard) and casting their lot to expensive flops (Peavy, Pierrs, Teahen ) rank as some of some of the worst moves I have ever seen this organization make.

I don't fault Jerry, but I do hope that he recoznizes that his GM has placed the present and future of this organization in deep trouble.

Sorry, but that doesn't wash. Since when do we only want "servicable" players on this team? I'd rather take a shot at the playoffs with higher-ceiling players and fail than shoot for .500 every year.

Also, who would you replace with Ely or Richard? Not Freddy, who's pitched the best of all of them...

I'd take Pierre and Peavy over any of them, especially if they can get closer to a career-average year. Teahen, we'll see. But let's see what these guys do over a full season before calling them flops.

One thing this year has proven is that Sox fans have no patience.

SoxSpeed22
05-30-2010, 01:19 PM
They have done nothing to show us that they can go on a sustained run. I hope I'm wrong though.

Craig Grebeck
05-30-2010, 01:28 PM
Sorry, but that doesn't wash. Since when do we only want "servicable" players on this team? I'd rather take a shot at the playoffs with higher-ceiling players and fail than shoot for .500 every year.

Also, who would you replace with Ely or Richard? Not Freddy, who's pitched the best of all of them...

I'd take Pierre and Peavy over any of them, especially if they can get closer to a career-average year. Teahen, we'll see. But let's see what these guys do over a full season before calling them flops.

One thing this year has proven is that Sox fans have no patience.
I think by best you meant worst.

jabrch
05-30-2010, 01:44 PM
The season is done.

That's an opinion. The fact is that the season is not done.

And I wish fans would stop comparing this team to Sox teams of the past.

Good luck. There's nothing wrong with comparing teams. In fact, some enjoy that. Why do you think people should give a damn if you don't want them to compare Sox teams?


One has nothing to do with the other.

Actually, they are both Sox teams, so that do have something to do with eachother, at a bare minimum, if not more.


The 2010 team will not rebound just because the 1983 team did or because the '05 Astros did.

And there is not a single post on this board (I don't think so) that said that it WOULD happen. People said it COULD happen - and that's absolutely true, if you understand the difference between would and could.

It is time for real change but sadly Reinsdorf won't sell. We are stuck with losing and Hawk making excuses.


Reinsdorf is the problem? My gosh...what a joke that is. The problem is the pitching and hitting that is not delivering to expectations. (Peavy, MB, Gavin, AJ, TCQ, Gordon, etc.) That's not on Jerry Reinsdorf.

You should know better. In fact, I assume you do.


If any individual wants to stick a fork in the season - that's their call. I have no issues with that. But stating, as a indisputable fact, that the season is over on Memorial Day, 8 down is just not a matter of fact, it is a matter of opinion.

PhillipsBubba
05-30-2010, 02:28 PM
Yes....

Jenks, Ramirez, Linebrink, Williams, Kotsay, Nix, AJ, Konerko and Garcia should be sent elsewhere.

I know this saddens the more hopeful Pollyannas on this board but you gotta break some eggs to make an omelet...so let's get cookin'.

http://sushizombie.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/egg-and-shell.jpg

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 02:31 PM
Yes....

Jenks, Ramirez, Linebrink, Williams, Kotsay, Nix, AJ, Konerko and Garcia should be sent elsewhere.

I know this saddens the more hopeful Pollyannas on this board but you gotta break some eggs to make an omelet...so let's get cookin'.



For who?

For what purpose?

Why Ramirez? :scratch:

What do you honestly expect to get for Nix, Kotsay, Williams and Linebrink?

tsoxman
05-30-2010, 03:44 PM
Sorry, but that doesn't wash. Since when do we only want "servicable" players on this team? I'd rather take a shot at the playoffs with higher-ceiling players and fail than shoot for .500 every year.

Also, who would you replace with Ely or Richard? Not Freddy, who's pitched the best of all of them...

I'd take Pierre and Peavy over any of them, especially if they can get closer to a career-average year. Teahen, we'll see. But let's see what these guys do over a full season before calling them flops.

One thing this year has proven is that Sox fans have no patience.
This is hilarious! We trade away a guy who was 14-2 at AA with an fip in the mid threes for a has been left fileder who can't hit or field... we deal away a very promising left handed pitcher and other arms for an oft-injured ace pitcher (under contract for three more years at $15 million plus) who won his cy young award three years ago because he was pitching in an airport..we trade away two young pitchers and a promising outfielder for an ass-clown centerfielder and then turn around and give him away to the Yankees the following season for nothing because 'he didn't fit in'. All this and you are saying that it's the FANS who are not patient?:D:

I'd say it is the general manager who lacks patience. You should pay attention more to what is happening, Russ.

southside rocks
05-30-2010, 04:29 PM
Just bringing over a thought I had in the postgame thread. I'm wondering how many of the fans out there have stuck a fork in the season.

For my part, I can't bring myself to give up until the end of next month or so. I'm stubborn and probably in denial. I'll also keep watching till the season is officially over. I really miss baseball in the offseason.


No, I haven't stuck a fork in the season. I find baseball interesting whether the Sox are winning or losing; of course it's more fun and less exasperating when they're winning. I hate winter and the offseason too. Baseball is always worth watching, IMO. I've been a Sox fan since 1967, I don't quit on my team in May. I just hope they haven't quit on themselves in May!

jabrch
05-30-2010, 04:30 PM
For who?

For what purpose?

Why Ramirez? :scratch:

What do you honestly expect to get for Nix, Kotsay, Williams and Linebrink?

Exactly - that whole package hardly gets you anything. No reason to quit when we are still capable of winning to get...nothing.

LoveYourSuit
05-30-2010, 04:37 PM
For who?

For what purpose?

Why Ramirez? :scratch:

What do you honestly expect to get for Nix, Kotsay, Williams and Linebrink?


At the very least it opens up roster spots to see what we have in the farm.

I don't agree with it, but I guess it is a point.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 04:49 PM
At the very least it opens up roster spots to see what we have in the farm.

I don't agree with it, but I guess it is a point.

And again, that only matters IF the players in the minors are ready for a callup. Otherwise, you just wreck their confidence and their development curve. Also, since those guys are all bench players or middle/long/last relievers, why would you call up a guy to sit on the bench?

If the record continues to dictate dumping players then you trade high priced players who will soon be FA who also have some value and who you have a player close to ready to replace who is worth giving some AB to. PK and AJ fit that criteria. Jenks maybe too. Garcia might have more value than any of them because he is so cheap, but the other 4 have almost no value, aren't that well paid (aside from Linebrink) and don't get enough appearances to justify bringing up a potential player to replace them.

And trading Ramirez would be just flat stupid...

PhillipsBubba
05-30-2010, 06:42 PM
For who?

For what purpose?

Why Ramirez? :scratch:

What do you honestly expect to get for Nix, Kotsay, Williams and Linebrink?

Addition by subtraction...unless they suck so bad you feel the White Sox are better off with them playing on a regular basis.:scratch:

Are you saying Ramirez is an untouchable or perhaps we can't get something in return???

You mean to tell me we have nobody in the minors that can do as well as the guys I mentioned.

There are no untouchables (except Beckham, Danks and Rios) on this team. The White Sox are second rate with little hope of making the playoffs.

Tragg
05-30-2010, 06:51 PM
This is hilarious! We trade away a guy who was 14-2 at AA with an fip in the mid threes for a has been left fileder who can't hit or field... we deal away a very promising left handed pitcher and other arms for an oft-injured ace pitcher (under contract for three more years at $15 million plus) who won his cy young award three years ago because he was pitching in an airport..we trade away two young pitchers and a promising outfielder for an ass-clown centerfielder and then turn around and give him away to the Yankees the following season for nothing because 'he didn't fit in'. All this and you are saying that it's the FANS who are not patient?:D:

I'd say it is the general manager who lacks patience. You should pay attention more to what is happening, Russ.
That's an accurate description bit you should add Rios. All I all, Williams has made more bad moves than hood the last 2 years; with trading season coming soon, I hope he gets his game back.

Daver
05-30-2010, 07:07 PM
You mean to tell me we have nobody in the minors that can do as well as the guys I mentioned.



Pretty much, but the White Sox have a long rich history of promoting players far sooner than they are ready.

Brian26
05-30-2010, 07:11 PM
There are no untouchables (except Beckham, Danks and Rios) on this team.

I can give you reasons why all three of those guys are touchable.

bunty_doghunter
05-30-2010, 07:15 PM
Yes....
Jenks, Ramirez, Linebrink, Williams, Kotsay, Nix, AJ, Konerko and Garcia should be sent elsewhere.

Not long to wait for AJ. As for the rest, watch closely the next 6 weeks.

mjmcend
05-30-2010, 07:57 PM
I can give you reasons why all three of those guys are touchable.

I wouldn't trade Danks because I think young cost-controlled pitching is the most valuable thing in baseball. I also wouldn't trade Ramirez or Beckham solely because you would be selling low, which is never a wise move. Rios, however, probably is close to his peak value (career highs in most categories) and I certainly would think strongly about selling him. That would be quite the profit deal since we acquired him for nothing.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 08:01 PM
Addition by subtraction...unless they suck so bad you feel the White Sox are better off with them playing on a regular basis.:scratch:

Are you saying Ramirez is an untouchable or perhaps we can't get something in return???

You mean to tell me we have nobody in the minors that can do as well as the guys I mentioned.

There are no untouchables (except Beckham, Danks and Rios) on this team. The White Sox are second rate with little hope of making the playoffs.

Well first, I think trading Ramirez is a stupid idea. He's a solid defensive SS who is improving and has at least a league average bat.

I don't know who you would bring up to sit on the bench to replace the bench players you want to trade. You're the one who suggested it. Even if we had a stud minor league player who could outperform the Nix and Vizquel, is it worth it to bring them up to sit on the bench and possibly risk blowing their development curve. Are you suggesting that's a good idea or do you have no idea what to suggest at all save dumping a bunch of players and hoping for the best?

:reinsy:
"My CPA and investment guy like the way you think, PB. I'll call Kenny..."

mzh
05-30-2010, 08:03 PM
Pretty much, but the White Sox have a long rich history of promoting players far sooner than they are ready.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but we hear so much about the Sox "ruining" players by bringing them up too early. Does anyone have an example of a player with actual promise who was spoiled by being rushed to the bigs?

TDog
05-30-2010, 08:28 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, but we hear so much about the Sox "ruining" players by bringing them up too early. Does anyone have an example of a player with actual promise who was spoiled by being rushed to the bigs?

No, really they don't. You don't know how a player's career would have panned out if he had been allowed to spend more time in the minor leagues.

You just assume that if a player in the Sox system doesn't develop as he should have that the Sox screwed up. It's the default analysis for many around here.

Daver
05-30-2010, 08:30 PM
I'm not disagreeing with you, but we hear so much about the Sox "ruining" players by bringing them up too early. Does anyone have an example of a player with actual promise who was spoiled by being rushed to the bigs?

Joe Borchard
Brian Anderson
Mike Caruso
Josh Fields
Kip Wells
Jon Rauch
Rod Bolton
Mark Johnson
Jeremy Reed
Josh Fogg
That is just off the top of my head, I could probably go into greater detail.

mzh
05-30-2010, 08:44 PM
Joe Borchard
Brian Anderson
Mike Caruso
Josh Fields
Kip Wells
Jon Rauch
Rod Bolton
Mark Johnson
Jeremy Reed
Josh Fogg
That is just off the top of my head, I could probably go into greater detail.
In 2001/2002, Borchard hit 47 HR in AA/AAA. At that point there was no use leaving him down. If Flowers was hitting .290 on pace for 30 homers, we would be yelling to bring him up, right? He just couldn't adjust to ML pitching.

Anderson hit .295 with 16 HR in AAA. What would he have gained by staying in AAA? He's just not a very good player, I don't think bringing him up early is the reason he's a career .227 hitter.

Caruso hit .306 his first big league year. I was out of the country, but again my guess is that pitchers just figured it. Same as what I said with BA.

Wells has not had a great career. But he's lasted a while, and I don't think bringing him up in 1999 is the reason he had a 5.33 ERA last year.

I'll concede Rauch. We didn't give him enough time, as Voodoo said it took him 5 years just to become a solid reliever.

Mark Johnson is/was a bum. A .252 average in the minors doesn't get you anywhere no matter when you're brought up.

Jeremy Reed never went past AAA with the Sox :scratch:

Fogg: see Kip Wells. Decent minor league pitcher, made a career in the bigs.

Also, tell me exactly how a player is "ruined" by being brought up too soon? I can see how Brent Morel's career might be derailed if he was bumped up, but if a guy is hitting minor league pitching there's only one direction to go.

Daver
05-30-2010, 08:50 PM
Also, tell me exactly how a player is "ruined" by being brought up too soon?

If you are incapable of grasping the idea of player development I am not going to waste my time.

canOcorn
05-30-2010, 09:02 PM
Well first, I think trading Ramirez is a stupid idea. He's a solid defensive SS who is improving and has at least a league average bat.

What? Alexei is average, at best, defensively. And he's regressing offensively. There's plenty of options that would come at the same price.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 09:13 PM
What? Alexei is average, at best, defensively. And he's regressing offensively. There's plenty of options that would come at the same price.

I'll throw this back at ya because I know people love UZR. TCM is second in the majors at UZR for SS. If you can't see what he brings to the table defensively, I can't explain it to you though.

Oh and he's also doing his May climb up the ladder offensively and is currently hitting .254 and showing signs of heading toward another solid summer. Like I said, he's at least league average offensively and his defense is very solid. He may never turn into an All Star, but he's plenty good enough to play every day as a SS in the majors.

BadBobbyJenks
05-30-2010, 09:14 PM
What? Alexei is average, at best, defensively. And he's regressing offensively. There's plenty of options that would come at the same price.

And I think people forget that he is going to be 30 years old. He is not going to get any better.

Brian26
05-30-2010, 09:17 PM
What? Alexei is average, at best, defensively. And he's regressing offensively. There's plenty of options that would come at the same price.

I've seen enough of Alexei. I have no confidence in him. He's regressed defensively, and offensively after three years he's a poor man's Uribe.

Brian26
05-30-2010, 09:21 PM
I'll throw this back at ya because I know people love UZR. TCM is second in the majors at UZR for SS. If you can't see what he brings to the table defensively, I can't explain it to you though.

UZR aside, I'm disappointed in the inconsistent play. These are things you don't necessarily see in the box score, but they seem to add up in your mind over time. Plays like, on covering 2nd on a stolen base attempt, he catches the ball three feet in front of the bag and then tries to lay a swipe tag instead of letting the ball come to him. His positioning mistakes have been well documented, whether it's playing too deep in the hole in double play situations or not feeding the second baseman a good enough throw to turn two or letting the ball go too early in a rundown.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 09:28 PM
UZR aside, I'm disappointed in the inconsistent play. These are things you don't necessarily see in the box score, but they seem to add up in your mind over time. Plays like, on covering 2nd on a stolen base attempt, he catches the ball three feet in front of the bag and then tries to lay a swipe tag instead of letting the ball come to him. His positioning mistakes have been well documented, whether it's playing too deep in the hole in double play situations or not feeding the second baseman a good enough throw to turn two or letting the ball go too early in a rundown.

Sure, but that's a matter of polish and BBJ is wrong, he's 28 not 30 and won't be 30 until the end of next season and he's also starting his 2nd year as a major league SS with no time in the minors and playing with a new partner at 2B who is also in his first year at the position in the majors and learning on the job.

Provided Beckham refinds his stick, the Sox should leave these two alone and let them grow together for the next 3-4 years, IMO.

TDog
05-30-2010, 09:30 PM
Joe Borchard
Brian Anderson
Mike Caruso
Josh Fields
Kip Wells
Jon Rauch
Rod Bolton
Mark Johnson
Jeremy Reed
Josh Fogg
That is just off the top of my head, I could probably go into greater detail.


I thought about just about all of those players, but I don't see how any of them were ruined by being brought up the majors too soon. I really don't get Mike Caruso and Joe Borchard. Caruso was a one-dimensional player who the league caught up to.

Borchard has been around for a decade in different organizations and only now seems like he might have learned to hit. (At least he looks like a real hitter in Fresno. Unfortunately for him he is over 30.) He wasn't going to learn what he needed to learn by staying in the minor leagues with one organization because he was achieving minor league success.

PhillipsBubba
05-30-2010, 10:27 PM
Well first, I think trading Ramirez is a stupid idea. He's a solid defensive SS who is improving and has at least a league average bat.

I don't know who you would bring up to sit on the bench to replace the bench players you want to trade. You're the one who suggested it. Even if we had a stud minor league player who could outperform the Nix and Vizquel, is it worth it to bring them up to sit on the bench and possibly risk blowing their development curve. Are you suggesting that's a good idea or do you have no idea what to suggest at all save dumping a bunch of players and hoping for the best?



Here's a novel idea...let's bring up guys like Viciedo, Danks Flowers, and Morel. The present formula is producing nothing. Let's see if our stellar coaching staff can put the finishing touches on these guys....or perhaps you have no faith in them? Or perhaps you have no faith in our minor league system?

Tell me you aren't putting all your faith in a bunch has beens and never achievers??? Please tell me you have more!

http://www.parentscountdowntocollegecoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nicholson.jpg

SI1020
05-30-2010, 10:31 PM
UZR aside, I'm disappointed in the inconsistent play. These are things you don't necessarily see in the box score, but they seem to add up in your mind over time. Plays like, on covering 2nd on a stolen base attempt, he catches the ball three feet in front of the bag and then tries to lay a swipe tag instead of letting the ball come to him. His positioning mistakes have been well documented, whether it's playing too deep in the hole in double play situations or not feeding the second baseman a good enough throw to turn two or letting the ball go too early in a rundown. Stone mentioned this very thing on the telecast today.

SephClone89
05-30-2010, 10:32 PM
Here's a novel idea...let's bring up guys like Viciedo, Danks Flowers, and Morel. The present formula is producing nothing. Let's see if our stellar coaching staff can put the finishing touches on these guys....or perhaps you have no faith in them? Or perhaps you have no faith in our minor league system?

Tell me you aren't putting all your faith in a bunch has beens and never achievers??? Please tell me you have more!

http://www.parentscountdowntocollegecoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nicholson.jpg

I'm having trouble figuring out what the hell you're trying to say here.

PhillipsBubba
05-30-2010, 10:33 PM
I've seen enough of Alexei. I have no confidence in him. He's regressed defensively, and offensively after three years he's a poor man's Uribe.

Well said Brian...well said, indeed!!!!:gulp:

PhillipsBubba
05-30-2010, 10:36 PM
I'm having trouble figuring out what the hell you're trying to say here.

Out with the old...in with the new...the White Sox as presently constituted suck!

Are we clear? ARE WE CLEAR????

http://www.parentscountdowntocollegecoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nicholson.jpg

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2010, 10:37 PM
Stone mentioned this very thing on the telecast today.

Every guy who covers second now stands way in front of second.

soxinem1
05-30-2010, 10:42 PM
Would it be more exciting if the Sox were getting the #1 draft pick?

Not really. Especially if Ozzie is the manager. He is the last guy I would want to see manage a youth movement.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 10:42 PM
Here's a novel idea...let's bring up guys like Viciedo, Danks Flowers, and Morel. The present formula is producing nothing. Let's see if our stellar coaching staff can put the finishing touches on these guys....or perhaps you have no faith in them? Or perhaps you have no faith in our minor league system?

Tell me you aren't putting all your faith in a bunch has beens and never achievers??? Please tell me you have more!



Yeah, okay... because that's the key to developing young players so they have success on the major league level, toss them into the lineup and see what they have whether they are producing on the minor league level and the coaches think they are ready or not.

This isn't the NBA or the NFL. You don't just toss kids into the game and hope they swim while they learn on the job because unlike those other leagues, that's a recipe for disaster in MLB.

Ideally, the players should stay down until they are both offensively and defensively ready. Flowers has been up and down at AAA this year though his defense apparently has shown signs of improvement. Viciedo is 21 and in his first year in AAA and though he's producing big numbers, he's also striking out 1/5 of his at bats. Morel is still playing in AA and Danks would play where exactly? You really want him taking at bats from TCQ? Quentin needs to be playing as much as he can to find out if he can get out of his funk.

Throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks is a crappy and stupid way to run a ball club. If the season is toast anyway, all you can do is screw up these kids by bringing them up too soon. So let them develop and give them a callup later in the season when they've had as much time as they can to develop. Flowers and Viciedo may be up sooner rather than later anyway as AJ and Konerko are two pieces that might actually make sense to trade. The rest is a half baked idea at best...

PhillipsBubba
05-30-2010, 10:53 PM
If the season is toast anyway, all you can do is screw up these kids by bringing them up too soon. ...

How do they get screwed up...do these kids have such tender psyches???

That's what a competent coaching staff is supposed to prevent.

Everyone was concerned about Beckham when he first came up and he did fine. He seems to have weathered his rtecent slump with his sensibilities intact.

Aren't you tired of the same crap season after season??? Perhaps we need a new management team with a fresh approach.

The White Sox will never compete with teams like the Devil Rays, Twins, Tigers, Red Sox... for chrissakes they can't handle the Indians.

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2010, 10:57 PM
Not really. Especially if Ozzie is the manager. He is the last guy I would want to see manage a youth movement.

I agree and I would also say that Kenny is not the guy I want picking the talent for a youth movement.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 11:12 PM
How do they get screwed up...do these kids have such tender psyches???

That's what a competent coaching staff is supposed to prevent.

Everyone was concerned about Beckham when he first came up and he did fine. He seems to have weathered his rtecent slump with his sensibilities intact.

Aren't you tired of the same crap season after season??? Perhaps we need a new management team with a fresh approach.

The White Sox will never compete with teams like the Devil Rays, Twins, Tigers, Red Sox... for chrissakes they can't handle the Indians.

No team should bring up prospects until they are ready. The Sox are bad at this already and the jury is out on whether they screwed up Beckham anyway, so it's interesting you bring him up as he would seem to be the prime example of letting kids get their **** together in the minors before introducing them to major league breaking and off speed pitches.

It's a bad idea, period and with that, I'll try to walk away now...

It's Dankerific
05-30-2010, 11:15 PM
Too bad we can't find young players like Evan Longoria that can produce right away.

PhillipsBubba
05-30-2010, 11:18 PM
No team should bring up prospects until they are ready. The Sox are bad at this already and the jury is out on whether they screwed up Beckham anyway, so it's interesting you bring him up as he would seem to be the prime example of letting kids get their **** together in the minors before introducing them to major league breaking and off speed pitches.

It's a bad idea, period and with that, I'll try to walk away now...

Yes, you should walk away after your asinine Beckham comment.

Good day, Sir!

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2010, 11:18 PM
Too bad we can't find young players like Evan Longoria that can produce right away.

There are very very very few guys like Longoria. It's weird because there are some guys that can come up and produce right away, in fact, there are LOTS of guys like that. The thing is at some point they are going to struggle and how will they react when that happens? This is why there are scouts though, if a scout says a guy is ready, I'd roll the dice and see if they are. And if we get to the point where we're ready to sell and our scouts are saying guys like Morel and Viciedo are ready, I'd try it.

voodoochile
05-30-2010, 11:20 PM
Yes, you should walk away after your asinine Beckham comment.

Good day, Sir!

So you're happy with Beckham's development, but think that Ramirez has hit the walll... :?:

Awesome...

mzh
05-30-2010, 11:20 PM
If you are incapable of grasping the idea of player development I am not going to waste my time.
None of your examples proved that they had too little time to develop. I come back with some reasonable answers and all you can do is question my knowledge of baseball. I repeat, who did the Sox "ruin" by not letting them have enough time to develop in the minors?

PalehosePlanet
05-30-2010, 11:24 PM
Sure, but that's a matter of polish and BBJ is wrong, he's 28 not 30 and won't be 30 until the end of next season and he's also starting his 2nd year as a major league SS with no time in the minors and playing with a new partner at 2B who is also in his first year at the position in the majors and learning on the job.

Provided Beckham refinds his stick, the Sox should leave these two alone and let them grow together for the next 3-4 years, IMO.

Excellent points on Alexei Voodoo. I think some people are stuck on his June '09 defense and would prefer to not listen to facts or admit when they are wrong. They've decided that his D sucks and that's that.

Also, he makes 1 million a year. Maybe they'd have preferred to blow 6 mil a year on a rat like Scutaro, or 8 million a year on a Julio Lugo.

We probably get more bang for the buck w/Alexei than any other team at the SS position.

Ahhh, but I forgot...the grass is always greener...

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2010, 11:29 PM
So you're happy with Beckham's development, but think that Ramirez has hit the walll... :?:

Awesome...

I think Alexei has been vastly better defensively this year and as always, his bat is starting to come around after a slow start. The one thing that Alexei has going against him is that he is 28. While Beckham has regressed obviously (though it seems like he's hitting the ball harder) he's only 24.

PalehosePlanet
05-30-2010, 11:31 PM
None of your examples proved that they had too little time to develop. I come back with some reasonable answers and all you can do is question my knowledge of baseball. I repeat, who did the Sox "ruin" by not letting them have enough time to develop in the minors?

Not to answer for Daver or anything, but I definitely think we rushed a couple of players he forgot to mention in Lorenzo Barcelo and Danny Wright. Two power RHP's that blew out their arms before they could realize their potential. They could have used an extra year each to hone their command.

mzh
05-30-2010, 11:34 PM
Not to answer for Daver or anything, but I definitely think we rushed a couple of players he forgot to mention in Lorenzo Barcelo and Danny Wright. Two power RHP's that blew out their arms before they could realize their potential. They could have used an extra year each to hone their command.
Thank you. This is the sort of answer I'm looking for. My question is at least partially answered. I think we need to distinguish the difference between someone with real potential who blew out because he had too little time to develop and, say, blew his arm out (like Wright), and someone was just wasn't good.

It's Dankerific
05-30-2010, 11:37 PM
There are very very very few guys like Longoria. It's weird because there are some guys that can come up and produce right away, in fact, there are LOTS of guys like that. The thing is at some point they are going to struggle and how will they react when that happens? This is why there are scouts though, if a scout says a guy is ready, I'd roll the dice and see if they are. And if we get to the point where we're ready to sell and our scouts are saying guys like Morel and Viciedo are ready, I'd try it.

Matt Weiters, Soon to be Strasburg, etc.

Recently, a bunch of other organizations have been spending time figuring out how to keep from a super 2 with ready prospects and not worrying about ruining them in the MLB.

We have to keep prospects in the minors for 5 years.

JNS
05-30-2010, 11:38 PM
So you're happy with Beckham's development, but think that Ramirez has hit the walll... :?:

Awesome...

I don't see how Beckham's sophomore issues are anyone's fault but his. The league now has a book on him - he needs to adjust. His inability to do so to date - and he has hundreds more at bats to go this season - may or may not be exacerbated by the possible incompetence of Greg Walker. I don't know and am not convinced that Walker is the problem that so many fans think he is, but if Beckham is to be more than an average to below average hitter he needs to shorten up his swing, especially with 2 strikes and do some other stuff. Walker may or may not be helpful in assisting him to do that. But really, it's up to Beckham in the end.

WhiteSox5187
05-30-2010, 11:39 PM
Matt Weiters, Soon to be Strasburg, etc.

Recently, a bunch of other organizations have been spending time figuring out how to keep from a super 2 with ready prospects and not worrying about ruining them in the MLB.

We have to keep prospects in the minors for 5 years.

There are exceptions to the rule, but there are a lot more "can't miss" guys who have burnt out than guys who have stuck around and had great careers and contributed right away.

JNS
05-30-2010, 11:40 PM
Not to answer for Daver or anything, but I definitely think we rushed a couple of players he forgot to mention in Lorenzo Barcelo and Danny Wright. Two power RHP's that blew out their arms before they could realize their potential. They could have used an extra year each to hone their command.

Good points. But was that an issue with the farm staff or Nardi Contreras, the pitching coach at the time? And would Cooper have allowed the same things to occur? These things happen. It's a pretty subjective area.

mzh
05-30-2010, 11:45 PM
I don't see how Beckham's sophomore issues are anyone's fault but his. The league now has a book on him - he needs to adjust. His inability to do so to date - and he has hundreds more at bats to go this season - may or may not be exacerbated by the possible incompetence of Greg Walker. I don't know and am not convinced that Walker is the problem that so many fans think he is, but if Beckham is to be more than an average to below average hitter he needs to shorten up his swing, especially with 2 strikes and do some other stuff. Walker may or may not be helpful in assisting him to do that. But really, it's up to Beckham in the end.
It is up to Beckham in the end, but it's veyr much up to Walker and Ozzie and Cora to push him in the right direction. If Beckham doesn't listen to them, Ozzie needs to get it across to him that it's his way, unless you want to be riding to bench. Especially with the hot game Nix had, I wouldn't be surprised to see Beckham sitting for a couple games if this is the case. I'd hate to see him gone down the route of Brian Anderson, who refused to listen to any coaching, but if you need to send him to the minors to get him to listen to coaches, so be it. I hope that's not necessary, but sometimes you need to be harsh.

It's Dankerific
05-30-2010, 11:50 PM
There are exceptions to the rule, but there are a lot more "can't miss" guys who have burnt out than guys who have stuck around and had great careers and contributed right away.

I would say that recently, if you exclude the White Sox, there has been a ton more high level draft picks that succeed at the MLB level than do not. Sure, not all superstars, but serviceable. Certainly not "ruined".

The Sox seem to have missed that memo.

Even our high draft pick successes (like Thornton and Gavin) came from other organizations.

soxinem1
05-30-2010, 11:54 PM
Out with the old...in with the new...the White Sox as presently constituted suck!

Are we clear? ARE WE CLEAR????

http://www.parentscountdowntocollegecoach.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nicholson.jpg

Though many of us do not want to admit it, we can handle the truth.

Excellent points on Alexei Voodoo. I think some people are stuck on his June '09 defense and would prefer to not listen to facts or admit when they are wrong. They've decided that his D sucks and that's that.

Also, he makes 1 million a year. Maybe they'd have preferred to blow 6 mil a year on a rat like Scutaro, or 8 million a year on a Julio Lugo.

We probably get more bang for the buck w/Alexei than any other team at the SS position.

Ahhh, but I forgot...the grass is always greener...

While I agree that he is a decent player and a bargain, my eyes do not deceive me when I watch Ramirez at SS. He is not adept at DP's, his footwork is often wrong, and his basic baseball fundamentals are weak. These are things UZR does not measure.

The 'bang for the buck' argument is what the problem is. If you want to win year in-year out you have to have players arrive from your minor league system and perform. The organization should focus on this, and in areas that you are weak developing, then you go the trade/FA route.

Which is my problem with Reinsdorf. What is wrong with having the best available? The nickel and dime **** does not work most of the time like 2005. If you want a consistent winner, you need to make an investment in the organization. as Lip has pointed out repeatedly.

People cannot complain about BOS and NYY buying championships. They crank out players continuously, and in most of the last 15 years in worse draft position than the White Sox. Why can't we do this? Simple. Ownership has not made an effort at building and maintaining a consistent winner EVER. So we have to settle on guys like Ramirez who might rank middle ofthe road, at best, in his all around game.

jabrch
05-31-2010, 12:07 AM
Here's a novel idea...let's bring up guys like Viciedo, Danks Flowers, and Morel.

That's neither novel nor sensible. Good organizations don't do ****ty stuff like that.

jabrch
05-31-2010, 12:09 AM
The White Sox will never compete with teams like the Devil Rays, Twins, Tigers, Red Sox... for chrissakes they can't handle the Indians.

***?

In a sea of senseless and fact-free posts, this has risen to the top.

TomBradley72
05-31-2010, 01:17 AM
Back to the OP, no I haven't given up on the season yet...but we only have 30 days to get to at least a few game over .500...so we need to red hot June to get there.

I think about every piece of the underperforming puzzle...Beckham, Quentin, Peavy, etc. has a chance to rebound...except one...Teahen at 3rd base...bad move to start (albeit acquired for nothing), but a 3 year agreement is right there with Todd Ritchie as one of KW's worst moves.

We miss a real bopper in the middle at DH or 3rd base.

voodoochile
05-31-2010, 02:16 AM
Back to the OP, no I haven't given up on the season yet...but we only have 30 days to get to at least a few game over .500...so we need to red hot June to get there.

I think about every piece of the underperforming puzzle...Beckham, Quentin, Peavy, etc. has a chance to rebound...except one...Teahen at 3rd base...bad move to start (albeit acquired for nothing), but a 3 year agreement is right there with Todd Ritchie as one of KW's worst moves.

We miss a real bopper in the middle at DH or 3rd base.

Whether Teahen's contract is a good one or not, he's quietly boosted his OPS back to around .730 recently and has been steadily climbing the last few weeks. He's hardly the biggest problem on the team.

Craig Grebeck
05-31-2010, 02:43 AM
Whether Teahen's contract is a good one or not, he's quietly boosted his OPS back to around .730 recently and has been steadily climbing the last few weeks. He's hardly the biggest problem on the team.
He's not the biggest problem largely because the team is so full of holes elsewhere. A guy with no glove and no bat, locked down for that many years at that rate = mega problem.

jabrch
05-31-2010, 02:44 AM
Whether Teahen's contract is a good one or not, he's quietly boosted his OPS back to around .730 recently and has been steadily climbing the last few weeks. He's hardly the biggest problem on the team.

Even though it doesn't look good today, I don't think we will know for sure about that deal for about another year - but I still don't get what the rush was. I'm not in favor of rushing to sign any guy until you have all the info. While I don't profess to know what KW was thinking, this one confuses me. I'd always prefer to err on the side of caution when dealing with guaranteed money.

voodoochile
05-31-2010, 02:45 AM
He's not the biggest problem largely because the team is so full of holes elsewhere. A guy with no glove and no bat, locked down for that many years at that rate = mega problem.

Well, I don't see that amount of money based on the current level of contract and the amount of money coming off the books next year as being an issue.

voodoochile
05-31-2010, 02:47 AM
I don't think we will know for sure about that deal for about another year - but I still don't get what the rush was. I'm not in favor of rushing to sign any guy until you have all the info. While I don't profess to know what KW was thinking, this one confuses me. I'd always prefer to err on the side of caution when dealing with guaranteed money.

I agree but again, don't think it's nearly the issue people are making it out to be and we won't really know how it pans out until we see how Teahen ends the season. If he approaches his high end numbers ~ .800 OPS for the season then he won't be nearly the burden some currently think he is.

jabrch
05-31-2010, 02:50 AM
I agree but again, don't think it's nearly the issue people are making it out to be and we won't really know how it pans out until we see how Teahen ends the season. If he approaches his high end numbers ~ .800 OPS for the season then he won't be nearly the burden some currently think he is.

I agree...in this case, patience is required. I know the bad start doesn't help the already impatient to be more patient - but that's how it is. Teahen's bat - that may come around. His arm, however, that's been the alarming part of his game to me - more than his bat.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2010, 08:44 AM
He's not the biggest problem largely because the team is so full of holes elsewhere. A guy with no glove and no bat, locked down for that many years at that rate = mega problem.

His OPS may be approaching .730, but so is his fielding percentage.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2010, 08:47 AM
I agree but again, don't think it's nearly the issue people are making it out to be and we won't really know how it pans out until we see how Teahen ends the season. If he approaches his high end numbers ~ .800 OPS for the season then he won't be nearly the burden some currently think he is.

If he's going to play the hot corner for a team filled with "pitch to contact" pitchers, Teahen needs to hit a .950+ OPS to make up for his terrible glove. And if he can hit like that, with such an awful glove, he should DH. The guy is BRUTAL at third.

He's as bad at third as Mackowiak was in CF.

asindc
05-31-2010, 09:53 AM
Too bad we can't find young players like Evan Longoria that can produce right away.

Matt Weiters, Soon to be Strasburg, etc.

Recently, a bunch of other organizations have been spending time figuring out how to keep from a super 2 with ready prospects and not worrying about ruining them in the MLB.

We have to keep prospects in the minors for 5 years.

I would say that recently, if you exclude the White Sox, there has been a ton more high level draft picks that succeed at the MLB level than do not. Sure, not all superstars, but serviceable. Certainly not "ruined".

The Sox seem to have missed that memo.

Even our high draft pick successes (like Thornton and Gavin) came from other organizations.


Having read many of your posts over the years, I am guessing that you would have demanded KW's and Ozzie's heads long before now if the Sox had performed as badly as Baltimore, Tampa, and Washington did to "earn" the draft picks needed to draft those talents. Your posts also do not take into account how many draft picks have not panned out for those organizations despite the fact they have (had, in Tampa's case) been drafting high for several years.

KW has done a terrible job with the farm system. That is the weak spot in his resume. But citing Longoria, Wieters (who is OPSing .727 over the 143 MLB games he has played thus far, as opposed to the .723 OPS over 148 MLB games for another certain 2nd-year player), and Strasburg (who we don't know about yet as a MLB pitcher) as examples of who the Sox should be drafting and developing ignores the fact that only teams that finish last or near last several years in a row can consistently draft players with that kind of talent.

Excellent points on Alexei Voodoo. I think some people are stuck on his June '09 defense and would prefer to not listen to facts or admit when they are wrong. They've decided that his D sucks and that's that.

Also, he makes 1 million a year. Maybe they'd have preferred to blow 6 mil a year on a rat like Scutaro, or 8 million a year on a Julio Lugo.

We probably get more bang for the buck w/Alexei than any other team at the SS position.

Ahhh, but I forgot...the grass is always greener...

Earlier this year, someone here at WSI suggested that the Sox would be better off with Scutaro than Alexei. Wieters with Baltimore is the kind of drafting/player development success story that the Sox should copy, but Beckham is... Meanwhile the Sox have won a WS and two other division titles since the last time Baltimore made the playoffs. Grass is greener, indeed.

TomBradley72
05-31-2010, 10:27 AM
Whether Teahen's contract is a good one or not, he's quietly boosted his OPS back to around .730 recently and has been steadily climbing the last few weeks. He's hardly the biggest problem on the team.

I agree with you as far as his offense goes...I'd even accept him as a DH...but with 8 errors and a .929 fielding pct after 50 games...he's a complete disaster on defense...our worst everyday 3rd baseman since the KW experiment.

jabrch
05-31-2010, 11:28 AM
KW has done a terrible job with the farm system. That is the weak spot in his resume. But citing Longoria, Wieters (who is OPSing .727 over the 143 MLB games he has played thus far, as opposed to the .723 OPS over 148 MLB games for another certain 2nd-year player), and Strasburg (who we don't know about yet as a MLB pitcher) as examples of who the Sox should be drafting and developing ignores the fact that only teams that finish last or near last several years in a row can consistently draft players with that kind of talent.

Could you imagine how miserable this place would be if we regularly got to draft guys like that?

soltrain21
05-31-2010, 11:34 AM
KW has done a terrible job with the farm system. That is the weak spot in his resume. But citing Longoria, Wieters (who is OPSing .727 over the 143 MLB games he has played thus far, as opposed to the .723 OPS over 148 MLB games for another certain 2nd-year player), and Strasburg (who we don't know about yet as a MLB pitcher) as examples of who the Sox should be drafting and developing ignores the fact that only teams that finish last or near last several years in a row can consistently draft players with that kind of talent.



Good teams still get top level talent with a later draft pick in the first round because they are willing to pony up the money. The White Sox, instead, draft the "safe" college guy at slot and it never pans out. It's not just bad teams that get the best players. The MLB draft just doesn't work like that.

DirtySox
05-31-2010, 11:50 AM
Good teams still get top level talent with a later draft pick in the first round because they are willing to pony up the money. The White Sox, instead, draft the "safe" college guy at slot and it never pans out. It's not just bad teams that get the best players. The MLB draft just doesn't work like that.

Indeed. Teams with a good long term orientation are also willing to spend on talented players that fall to later rounds for one reason or another. They also aren't afraid to draft prep players in the 1st round. They are also active in international free agency and the Latin market. But since the organization is perpetually in "win now" mode, they make do with a measly 4 million draft budget that is woefully inadequate.

It's quite evident at this point in time what happens when the GM/organization neglects the farm system and relies solely on a washed up, expensive, piecemeal roster. Say hello to a bloated payroll full of mediocrity and a record that reflects it.

Lillian
05-31-2010, 11:54 AM
Teahen will not be at 3rd base for the entire duration of his contract.
Morel should be ready next year, if he continues to progress as rapidly as he has thus far.
He's very good defensively, and is probably among the top 5 prospects in the organization.
If Teahen isn't traded, I'd expect him to be a bench player before his contract is finished. Let's hope he's a bench player, because if he has to start, we're in big trouble.

It's Dankerific
05-31-2010, 01:54 PM
Having read many of your posts over the years, I am guessing that you would have demanded KW's and Ozzie's heads long before now if the Sox had performed as badly as Baltimore, Tampa, and Washington did to "earn" the draft picks needed to draft those talents. Your posts also do not take into account how many draft picks have not panned out for those organizations despite the fact they have (had, in Tampa's case) been drafting high for several years.

KW has done a terrible job with the farm system. That is the weak spot in his resume. But citing Longoria, Wieters (who is OPSing .727 over the 143 MLB games he has played thus far, as opposed to the .723 OPS over 148 MLB games for another certain 2nd-year player), and Strasburg (who we don't know about yet as a MLB pitcher) as examples of who the Sox should be drafting and developing ignores the fact that only teams that finish last or near last several years in a row can consistently draft players with that kind of talent.



Earlier this year, someone here at WSI suggested that the Sox would be better off with Scutaro than Alexei. Wieters with Baltimore is the kind of drafting/player development success story that the Sox should copy, but Beckham is... Meanwhile the Sox have won a WS and two other division titles since the last time Baltimore made the playoffs. Grass is greener, indeed.

You missed the point. The point is that other teams aren't sitting around wondering if they're ruining young players by playing them. They are settled with their scouting and go with it. No one is saying everyone has to be a hit or a star. But they're doing something we're not, even in the later part of the first round. Atlanta - (Jason Heyward picked 14 2007 draft), Detroit - (Rick Porcello picked 27 2007 draft.) Even without following the other teams much, you can look at recent draft classes and have people jump out at you. Where is that with the Sox?

I guess we wont even mention the relative difference in value between a catcher and a 2nd baseman....



Could you imagine how miserable this place would be if we regularly got to draft guys like that?

Would we have a losing record 3/4 years in a row?

Good teams still get top level talent with a later draft pick in the first round because they are willing to pony up the money. The White Sox, instead, draft the "safe" college guy at slot and it never pans out. It's not just bad teams that get the best players. The MLB draft just doesn't work like that.

exactly. and the difference is like 4 million dollars a year. thats just sad.

Indeed. Teams with a good long term orientation are also willing to spend on talented players that fall to later rounds for one reason or another. They also aren't afraid to draft prep players in the 1st round. They are also active in international free agency and the Latin market. But since the organization is perpetually in "win now" mode, they make do with a measly 4 million draft budget that is woefully inadequate.

It's quite evident at this point in time what happens when the GM/organization neglects the farm system and relies solely on a washed up, expensive, piecemeal roster. Say hello to a bloated payroll full of mediocrity and a record that reflects it.

I've seen that with other organizations and I dont look forward to it.

Law11
06-01-2010, 11:44 AM
Stick a fork in it.. Oh wait we'll run off a great .600 clip to finish the season mixed in with a few 6 or seven game winning streaks.... LOL.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-01-2010, 11:48 AM
Yes, I stuck a fork in it about three and a half weeks ago. We are just not very good.

If sheer optimism is the only thing that gets some of you to watch baseball games, more power to you. But, I'm going to continue to be realistic about this team and watch or go to the games because I love baseball and I love the White Sox.

jabrch
06-01-2010, 11:52 AM
Yes, I stuck a fork in it about three and a half weeks ago. We are just not very good.

So if we climb back into the race, you won't be jumping on the bandwagon? Because you already suck a fork in it - assuming that they are done. You will continue to believe they have no chance - even if they are only a few out? Right? They are DONE as far as you are concerned - over - done - through...

I hope some people who say the team is done actually start to act like it instead of just talking tough.

soltrain21
06-01-2010, 11:56 AM
So if we climb back into the race, you won't be jumping on the bandwagon? Because you already suck a fork in it - assuming that they are done. You will continue to believe they have no chance - even if they are only a few out? Right? They are DONE as far as you are concerned - over - done - through...

I hope some people who say the team is done actually start to act like it instead of just talking tough.

Oh, get over yourself.

As a fan you have the right to think your team is terrible WHEN THEY ARE PLAYING TERRIBLE. Not everybody is like you and keeps saying, "Wait for it...." when we are watching bad baseball being played, seemingly, every single night.

Right now this team isn't good and lots of people HAVE stuck a fork in them by what they've seen this team DO. I don't think they are going to climb out of the hole they've dug for themselves - but that doesn't mean I hope they don't. I'm sure everybody else is the same way.

Craig Grebeck
06-01-2010, 12:00 PM
I don't understand how anyone could please jabrch here. I'm going to watch the games, regardless if this team has a chance. I didn't think they had a chance in March or April, but I still watched. I'll watch in June, July, August and September too. Bad baseball is still better than no baseball.

SI1020
06-01-2010, 12:00 PM
So if we climb back into the race, you won't be jumping on the bandwagon? Because you already suck a fork in it - assuming that they are done. You will continue to believe they have no chance - even if they are only a few out? Right? They are DONE as far as you are concerned - over - done - through...

I hope some people who say the team is done actually start to act like it instead of just talking tough. Saying they are done is merely an opinion based on an extended period of bad baseball, and a current roster that seems to fit right in with that. An opinion that may in the end turn out to be wrong. I highly doubt it, but it may. No one needs to be called a "bandwagon" fan for believing this way. That to me is very smug and condescending.

DirtySox
06-01-2010, 12:01 PM
So if we climb back into the race, you won't be jumping on the bandwagon? Because you already suck a fork in it - assuming that they are done. You will continue to believe they have no chance - even if they are only a few out? Right? They are DONE as far as you are concerned - over - done - through...

I hope some people who say the team is done actually start to act like it instead of just talking tough.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/DertyFoot/high_horse_02.jpg

jabrch
06-01-2010, 12:13 PM
Saying they are done is merely an opinion based on an extended period of bad baseball, and a current roster that seems to fit right in with that. An opinion that may in the end turn out to be wrong. I highly doubt it, but it may. No one needs to be called a "bandwagon" fan for believing this way. That to me is very smug and condescending.




If you say they are done - that's your choice. But done, and in trouble, are two different things. I'd love to see some of these people who talk tough about how terrible the team is actually, for once, follow through. If that's smug and condescending, then so be it. Done is not a statement about a extended period of past baseball. Done is a statement about the future. Want to say they sucked in April and were bad in May? That's a statement about an extended period of bad baseball. But DONE is a statement about the future potential result. It's a prediction turned into a statement that is purported as fact - which is actually not. They have a slim chance? That's true...but DONE...no..that's a different animal there SI.







http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/DertyFoot/high_horse_02.jpg

For wondering if people ever will behave consistent with their statements? Ok - don't invite me over to dinner. Or best yet, ignore me. Your choice.

People are welcome to think the team is done, in May, down 6.5...in June, down 8...whatever... that's their choice...I'm equally welcome, by right, to question the eventual potential inconsistency if the team does rip off a few good months and climbs back in, right Dirty? I don't see why that would bother you...I assume it doesn't....

Craig Grebeck
06-01-2010, 12:15 PM
Dude, seriously, how does one "follow through" on saying a team is terrible?

asindc
06-01-2010, 12:18 PM
Good teams still get top level talent with a later draft pick in the first round because they are willing to pony up the money. The White Sox, instead, draft the "safe" college guy at slot and it never pans out. It's not just bad teams that get the best players. The MLB draft just doesn't work like that.

Indeed. Teams with a good long term orientation are also willing to spend on talented players that fall to later rounds for one reason or another. They also aren't afraid to draft prep players in the 1st round. They are also active in international free agency and the Latin market. But since the organization is perpetually in "win now" mode, they make do with a measly 4 million draft budget that is woefully inadequate.

It's quite evident at this point in time what happens when the GM/organization neglects the farm system and relies solely on a washed up, expensive, piecemeal roster. Say hello to a bloated payroll full of mediocrity and a record that reflects it.

My post was in response to ItsDankerific's, which suggested that the Sox should be drafting players such as Longoria and Wieters and quickly moving them into the MLB roster. I am quite aware that many organizations manage to draft exceptional players lower in the draft, such as Mark Buehrle. KW's management of the draft and farm system has not been acceptable, and I have said so many times, including in my previous post in this thread.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-01-2010, 12:53 PM
So if we climb back into the race, you won't be jumping on the bandwagon? Because you already suck a fork in it - assuming that they are done. You will continue to believe they have no chance - even if they are only a few out? Right? They are DONE as far as you are concerned - over - done - through...

I hope some people who say the team is done actually start to act like it instead of just talking tough.

I wasn't aware that a die-hard fan of a team can "jump on the bandwagon". I always thought that term was reserved people who are suddenly Florida Gators fans b/c of the winning stretch with Tim Tebow, for example. Or, suddenly a Blackhawks fan without knowing a thing about hockey (I admit I am slightly guilty of this.) I thought those were the very definition of bandwagon fans, but I guess I learn something every day on this site. :scratch:

I don't even know what that last part means. I watch White Sox baseball games as a fan who also can look at this team objectively (often after I calm down). I honestly don't believe we have a realistic chance at winning the division. And, I understand that the wild card just doesn't have a chance of coming out of the central. The Rays and the Yankees are just too damn good.

asindc
06-01-2010, 12:55 PM
You missed the point. The point is that other teams aren't sitting around wondering if they're ruining young players by playing them. They are settled with their scouting and go with it. No one is saying everyone has to be a hit or a star. But they're doing something we're not, even in the later part of the first round. Atlanta - (Jason Heyward picked 14 2007 draft), Detroit - (Rick Porcello picked 27 2007 draft.) Even without following the other teams much, you can look at recent draft classes and have people jump out at you. Where is that with the Sox?

I guess we wont even mention the relative difference in value between a catcher and a 2nd baseman....





Would we have a losing record 3/4 years in a row?



exactly. and the difference is like 4 million dollars a year. thats just sad.



I've seen that with other organizations and I dont look forward to it.

You missed the point. The point is that other teams aren't sitting around wondering if they're ruining young players by playing them. They are settled with their scouting and go with it. No one is saying everyone has to be a hit or a star. But they're doing something we're not, even in the later part of the first round. Atlanta - (Jason Heyward picked 14 2007 draft), Detroit - (Rick Porcello picked 27 2007 draft.) Even without following the other teams much, you can look at recent draft classes and have people jump out at you. Where is that with the Sox?

I guess we wont even mention the relative difference in value between a catcher and a 2nd baseman....





Would we have a losing record 3/4 years in a row?



exactly. and the difference is like 4 million dollars a year. thats just sad.



I've seen that with other organizations and I dont look forward to it.

No, I understand your point. I did not articulate my response very well, I admit, but the second point I should make is each of the players you cite replaced or will replace a player that was far below league average. You might argue that Teahen is such a player (I would agree), but Tampa, Baltimore, and Washington were in the position to take a player good enough to move into the starting lineup so quickly because they were so bad for so long (much longer than 3 losing seasons out of 4) that they got the chance to draft those players and their MLB rosters were so bad that moving the players into the starting lineup was an immediate upgrade. Teahen is here only because Crede's back did not hold up and Josh Fields did not pan out. Is our farm system up to par, let alone ready to support a contender? Not at all. Should the Sox be drafting better talent than they have been under KW? Absolutely! Should that talent be quickly moved into the starting lineup? If we have holes in the lineup, yes.

How is it possible that Tampa can quickly move Longoria into the lineup, Baltimore quickly move Wieters into the lineup, and Washington quickly move Strasburg into the lineup, when the last three World Series champions from the AL replaced the injured starting 3rd baseman with Jayson Nix, the injured staring CF with Bill Hall (Boston), and the injured starting CF with Randy Winn (NYY)? It takes a whole lot more losing than the Sox, Boston, and NYY have done the past several years to consistently draft that kind of talent.

JC456
06-01-2010, 01:39 PM
So if we climb back into the race, you won't be jumping on the bandwagon? Because you already suck a fork in it - assuming that they are done. You will continue to believe they have no chance - even if they are only a few out? Right? They are DONE as far as you are concerned - over - done - through...

I hope some people who say the team is done actually start to act like it instead of just talking tough.

Anyone done I would expect will be gone from this site. No need to hang around to watch a season that is over. See all of you Whinee losers! Boo Hoo you didn't get first place in the meaningless time of the year, so take your balls and go away.

Joe Cowley I heard was one that is done while watching Monsters in the Morning this morning, so is Dan Bernstien.

I don't know what either will do with the rest of the year, but I don't wish to hear from someone who gives up that easy. Glad they aren't in charge of anything major, yep too much work, it's supposed to be easy I guess.

I don't get it, but when there is 4 months of baseball to play how two months negates those upcoming 4 months is beyond me.

All I know is every game is good game to win.

BadBobbyJenks
06-01-2010, 01:46 PM
Jabrch what exactly are you trying to accomplish with your campaign. I have no idea what you are even talking about anymore. It is ok for people to realize this team is done, but still enjoy the game and team they love.

Domeshot17
06-01-2010, 01:47 PM
I wasn't aware that a die-hard fan of a team can "jump on the bandwagon". I always thought that term was reserved people who are suddenly Florida Gators fans b/c of the winning stretch with Tim Tebow, for example. Or, suddenly a Blackhawks fan without knowing a thing about hockey (I admit I am slightly guilty of this.) I thought those were the very definition of bandwagon fans, but I guess I learn something every day on this site. :scratch:

I don't even know what that last part means. I watch White Sox baseball games as a fan who also can look at this team objectively (often after I calm down). I honestly don't believe we have a realistic chance at winning the division. And, I understand that the wild card just doesn't have a chance of coming out of the central. The Rays and the Yankees are just too damn good.

This is just Jabrch defining what a fan is again. A while ago he decided to cut down those who choose not to spend money by going to the ballpark. They were lesser fans. I believe (though I could be wrong) he cut into Lip because despite the fact Lip's career is interwoven in sports, Lip doesn't actually "spend" money on going to games (again, I think it was Jab, could be wrong). Now, if you don't see the team coming back, you apparently have no right to still enjoy watching baseball.

So according to Jab, the only true Sox fans are those who spend a lot of money going to the games and always think there is a good chance for turning around a bad season and are optimistic at all costs..... It sounds like Jab wants us all to be Cub Fans :smile:

Edit: For some of us, we just enjoy the game. The only reason this season actually upsets me, why I am actually really pissed about the losing, is we have a world championship rotation and a bullpen that can get hot. However, because of our GM and Manager, we decided to ignore the holes in the offense. We decided to replace bench production with clubhouse leadership. We did not make one offseason move to significatly upgrade the offense. I don't count Rios, because he was part of a weak offense last year. I feel like we are just wasting the 3rd or 4th best rotation in baseball. Doesn't mean I don't put the game on the tv or radio any chance I get.

khan
06-01-2010, 01:53 PM
The only reason this season actually upsets me, why I am actually really pissed about the losing, is we have a world championship rotation and a bullpen that can get hot. However, because of our GM and Manager, we decided to ignore the holes in the offense. We decided to replace bench production with clubhouse leadership. We did not make one offseason move to significatly upgrade the offense. I don't count Rios, because he was part of a weak offense last year. I feel like we are just wasting the 3rd or 4th best rotation in baseball. Doesn't mean I don't put the game on the tv or radio any chance I get.

+1

And OHH, how much **** did the polyannas give me [and many others] for posting this sort of thing back in the offseason...

downstairs
06-01-2010, 01:55 PM
I believe we'll be a .500 team.

Domeshot17
06-01-2010, 02:00 PM
+1

And OHH, how much **** did the polyannas give me [and many others] for posting this sort of thing back in the offseason...

what I find funny is, I know yourself Doublem and myself, our big thing was ultimately: We have no idea if Quentin Beckham or Alexei will step up, and if they step BACK, we could be in trouble. We were told we were being purposefully negative and there was no reason to think Beckham won't be Longoria big, Quentin won't pull off a 2008 repeat, and Alexei wouldn't take a step forward.

asindc
06-01-2010, 02:14 PM
what I find funny is, I know yourself Doublem and myself, our big thing was ultimately: We have no idea if Quentin Beckham or Alexei will step up, and if they step BACK, we could be in trouble. We were told we were being purposefully negative and there was no reason to think Beckham won't be Longoria big, Quentin won't pull off a 2008 repeat, and Alexei wouldn't take a step forward.

You might have been told that by someone, but I have always said in response that if Quentin, Beckham, and/or Alexei take a step back, then nothing else would matter since this team depends on them to have at least career average seasons. I said all along that if Quentin's 2008 season turns out to be a fluke, then the Sox are not good enough to win the division. I also said I don't think 2008 was a fluke for Quentin, and that Alexei would play to career norms. I offered no opinion on Beckham except to say his talent warrants him being our starting 2nd baseman. What I didn't say is that KW and Ozzie are idiots for relying on those players to play well, because they have shown in the past that they can.

If you want to indict KW for not having drafted well enough to replace Beckham in the lineup for awhile with someone better than Nix (or Alexi Casilla or Ramiro Pena, for that matter), then that's one thing. But to anticipate that young players who have played well in the past to not play well in the future, and expect the same out of management, does seem pessimistic to me.

voodoochile
06-01-2010, 02:24 PM
You might have been told that by someone, but I have always said in response that if Quentin, Beckham, and/or Alexei take a step back, then nothing else would matter since this team depends on them to have at least career average seasons. I said all along that if Quentin's 2008 season turns out to be a fluke, then the Sox are not good enough to win the division. I also said I don't think 2008 was a fluke for Quentin, and that Alexei would play to career norms. I offered no opinion on Beckham except to say his talent warrants him being our starting 2nd baseman. What I didn't say is that KW and Ozzie are idiots for relying on those players to play well, because they have shown in the past that they can.

If you want to indict KW for not having drafted well enough to replace Beckham in the lineup for awhile with someone better than Nix (or Alexi Casilla or Ramiro Pena, for that matter), then that's one thing. But to anticipate that young players who have played well in the past to not play well in the future, and expect the same out of management, does seem pessimistic to me.

Exactly. People who were expecting the Sox to compete for the division or even more were counting on good seasons from TCQ, TCM and Beckham. If those three don't have good years, nothing was going to save this team. Even if Jones turned into Pujols it wouldn't matter and like it or not, the Sox were not only kind of stuck giving those three starting positions and relying on them is something most people agreed with. In fact the only one I can think of who was considered a question mark was Ramirez and that was more about WHERE he should play, not IF he should play.

And yeah, ever team in the majors would be struggling if they had three young players all who were expected to be major producers having a horrible first 2 months of the season. Well, maybe not the Yankees, but their payroll is twice what the Sox are spending and there's simply no way to make up that revenue...

jabrch
06-01-2010, 02:24 PM
This is just Jabrch defining what a fan is again. A while ago he decided to cut down those who choose not to spend money by going to the ballpark. They were lesser fans. I believe (though I could be wrong) he cut into Lip because despite the fact Lip's career is interwoven in sports, Lip doesn't actually "spend" money on going to games (again, I think it was Jab, could be wrong). Now, if you don't see the team coming back, you apparently have no right to still enjoy watching baseball.

So according to Jab, the only true Sox fans are those who spend a lot of money going to the games and always think there is a good chance for turning around a bad season and are optimistic at all costs..... It sounds like Jab wants us all to be Cub Fans :smile:

Edit: For some of us, we just enjoy the game. The only reason this season actually upsets me, why I am actually really pissed about the losing, is we have a world championship rotation and a bullpen that can get hot. However, because of our GM and Manager, we decided to ignore the holes in the offense. We decided to replace bench production with clubhouse leadership. We did not make one offseason move to significatly upgrade the offense. I don't count Rios, because he was part of a weak offense last year. I feel like we are just wasting the 3rd or 4th best rotation in baseball. Doesn't mean I don't put the game on the tv or radio any chance I get.

None of what you said is what I think. But you are welcome to that opinion if you so desire. I won't put words in your mouth EVER again. I hope you'd do the same.

SI1020
06-01-2010, 02:29 PM
If you want to indict KW for not having drafted well enough to replace Beckham in the lineup for awhile with someone better than Nix (or Alexi Casilla or Ramiro Pena, for that matter), then that's one thing. But to anticipate that young players who have played well in the past to not play well in the future, and expect the same out of management, does seem pessimistic to me. It wasn't so much anticipation of failure, but normal caution where it concerned Quentin and Beckham. Neither had even one full successful season to date. Sure the potential is there but to assume they were going to be solid producers wasn't realistic either. Cautiously optimistic I can understand, but neither should have been viewed as a lock, and the game is riddled with young performers who didn't fulfill their early promise.

SI1020
06-01-2010, 02:33 PM
None of what you said is what I think. But you are welcome to that opinion if you so desire. I won't put words in your mouth EVER again. I hope you'd do the same. You give me pretty much the same impression you gave Domeshot17. I'm not going to spend a lot of time researching your posts and throwing your words back at you, but I doubt the two of us are alone in this contention.

jabrch
06-01-2010, 02:35 PM
Exactly. People who were expecting the Sox to compete for the division or even more were counting on good seasons from TCQ, TCM and Beckham. If those three don't have good years, nothing was going to save this team. Even if Jones turned into Pujols it wouldn't matter and like it or not, the Sox were not only kind of stuck giving those three starting positions and relying on them is something most people agreed with. In fact the only one I can think of who was considered a question mark was Ramirez and that was more about WHERE he should play, not IF he should play.

And yeah, ever team in the majors would be struggling if they had three young players all who were expected to be major producers having a horrible first 2 months of the season. Well, maybe not the Yankees, but their payroll is twice what the Sox are spending and there's simply no way to make up that revenue...


If someone predicted our pitching staff would be this ineffective as a whole, then good for them. They were right. If someone predicted we'd have 5 starters hitting around .200 in April and that TCQ, AJP and Pierre, then they were right too.

I don't recall anyone predicting that AJP, TCQ, Beckham, Pierre, Buehrle Gavin and Peavy would all be this bad for this long. If someone did - then I didn't see it. Good for them. Make predictions like that every year and you will be wrong more than you are right, so you better brag when your lottery numbers come up if that's what your game is.

There was no way to predict correctly that this team would have been this bad for the first two months for the reasons it was. The popular predictions were DH, old 1B, Freddy, Teahen, Kotsay, Viz and Pierre. Of those, Pierre was a problem for about a month. Kotsay and Viz are bench players - sure - they have been bad, but they aren't the reason we are 8 games out. Freddy, the 1B and DH have been +s, not minuses. Only of those is Teahen REALLY a major problem. And Teahen is not nearly the problem that MB, JP, GF, TCQ, AJP, GB are...

Whatever...everyone enjoys this their own way. I enjoy it by not being miserable and will continue to laugh at those who allow baseball to make them miserable. If that's smug and warrants me having insults hurled at me, I've got broad shoulders. I'll take it.

jabrch
06-01-2010, 02:36 PM
You give me pretty much the same impression you gave Domeshot17. I'm not going to spend a lot of time researching your posts and throwing your words back at you, but I doubt the two of us are alone in this contention.


Simple solution...I'll offer you the same deal I did to Dome. I will never put words in your mouth again. You don't do the same to me. DONE.

Craig Grebeck
06-01-2010, 02:42 PM
I think your frustration would be lessened if you stopped trying to be the chief justice of the "who is a fan? who is worthy enough to grace my presence as a fan?" supreme court.

DirtySox
06-01-2010, 02:45 PM
You give me pretty much the same impression you gave Domeshot17. I'm not going to spend a lot of time researching your posts and throwing your words back at you, but I doubt the two of us are alone in this contention.

I'm in this camp as well.

WhiteSoxFTW
06-01-2010, 03:01 PM
You might have been told that by someone, but I have always said in response that if Quentin, Beckham, and/or Alexei take a step back, then nothing else would matter since this team depends on them to have at least career average seasons. I said all along that if Quentin's 2008 season turns out to be a fluke, then the Sox are not good enough to win the division. I also said I don't think 2008 was a fluke for Quentin, and that Alexei would play to career norms. I offered no opinion on Beckham except to say his talent warrants him being our starting 2nd baseman. What I didn't say is that KW and Ozzie are idiots for relying on those players to play well, because they have shown in the past that they can.

Exactly. People who were expecting the Sox to compete for the division or even more were counting on good seasons from TCQ, TCM and Beckham. If those three don't have good years, nothing was going to save this team. Even if Jones turned into Pujols it wouldn't matter and like it or not, the Sox were not only kind of stuck giving those three starting positions and relying on them is something most people agreed with. In fact the only one I can think of who was considered a question mark was Ramirez and that was more about WHERE he should play, not IF he should play.

There have been so MANY things that have gone wrong this season. Our "top rotation in the AL" has greatly underperformed. We have a veteran .286 career-hitting catcher hovering around .200. We have a .300 career-hitting leadoff man hitting .245. Our closer has completely lost it.

Then, when you all that to the fact that the young players we were counting on in Beckham, Alexei, and Quentin to have good seasons can't get on base...the season has gotten that much worse. (I'm sure Beckham will break out of his slump at some point...he has too much talent not to.)

I think it is time we ask ourselves if Alexei Ramirez at SS and Carlos Quentin in the OF should be in our future plans. I'm really not so sure. I think 2008 was such an anomaly for Quentin, and I really don't know what to think about Ramirez. I think the White Sox should be looking for an upgrade at SS, but it seems like they have Alexei penciled in for years to come.

khan
06-01-2010, 03:25 PM
what I find funny is, I know yourself Doublem and myself, our big thing was ultimately: We have no idea if Quentin Beckham or Alexei will step up, and if they step BACK, we could be in trouble. We were told we were being purposefully negative and there was no reason to think Beckham won't be Longoria big, Quentin won't pull off a 2008 repeat, and Alexei wouldn't take a step forward.

Not only this, but also the ignorance and arrogance by which this team was assembled:

The lack of a proper DH; The lack of a long reliever to stanch any bleeding in the starting rotation; The over-reliance on crappy bench players to play well over their heads; The lack of competition for the LOOGY position; The lack of even ONE adequate bat on the bench were all causes for me to be concerned. In sum, due to the many obvious holes in the team, there was NO margin for error in assembling this team. EVERYTHING had to go right for this team to win.

Moreover, I was led to belive that this ****TY team, as it was comprised, would somehow "compete" early in the season. THEN, at some undeterminate time DURING the season, KW would "make a trade, to add some pieces."

My query then [as it is NOW] was: "WITH WHAT?" What GM in his right mind would trade the SOX ANYTHING of value for the festering piles of **** left in the organization? The cupboard is/was BARE, if anyone was paying attention. There ARE no youngsters that will come riding in from Charlotte to save this season. Moreover, there is NOTHING that KW can trade to fix 2010.

KW/Ozzie thought they were smarter than everyone else in the game. They planned on MIRACULOUS pitching, for unproven youngsters to produce, for miraculously-improved defense, and for the DH to become irrelevant. They were clearly incorrect.



For my part, I will admit I was incorrect about Rios. I thought he was finitu. However, I WAS correct about the craptacular assembly of your 2010 Chicago White Sox, unfortunately.

SephClone89
06-01-2010, 04:54 PM
Not only this, but also the ignorance and arrogance by which this team was assembled:

The lack of a proper DH; The lack of a long reliever to stanch any bleeding in the starting rotation; The over-reliance on crappy bench players to play well over their heads; The lack of competition for the LOOGY position; The lack of even ONE adequate bat on the bench were all causes for me to be concerned. In sum, due to the many obvious holes in the team, there was NO margin for error in assembling this team. EVERYTHING had to go right for this team to win.

Moreover, I was led to belive that this ****TY team, as it was comprised, would somehow "compete" early in the season. THEN, at some undeterminate time DURING the season, KW would "make a trade, to add some pieces."

My query then [as it is NOW] was: "WITH WHAT?" What GM in his right mind would trade the SOX ANYTHING of value for the festering piles of **** left in the organization? The cupboard is/was BARE, if anyone was paying attention. There ARE no youngsters that will come riding in from Charlotte to save this season. Moreover, there is NOTHING that KW can trade to fix 2010.

KW/Ozzie thought they were smarter than everyone else in the game. They planned on MIRACULOUS pitching, for unproven youngsters to produce, for miraculously-improved defense, and for the DH to become irrelevant. They were clearly incorrect.



For my part, I will admit I was incorrect about Rios. I thought he was finitu. However, I WAS correct about the craptacular assembly of your 2010 Chicago White Sox, unfortunately.

http://stillfootball.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/khaaaaan.jpg

I understand your frustration, and your assessment of the team is mostly correct. I just can't get as pissed off and worked up as much as a lot of you can.

It's not that I'm not a die-hard fan. I live and die with every game. I follow the news behind these guys each and every day. I'm going to probably around 12 games this season on a college kid's budget.

I guess I just can't bring myself to get furious over stuff like this. I guess I just find a way to take losing in stride. Life's too short to let the state of a baseball team rattle me so. I can be frustrated, yes. I can be furious over specific games, yes. But I guess in some sense I am an optimist. I know that a lot of these players are better than they're performing. I also know that it is an incredibly long shot that we'll make anything resembling a true "run" at the thing this year. But I don't find having an ultra-competitive team to be necessary for me to live a happy life, or to even just enjoy baseball season. We're Sox fans. We've seen some bad days. Gotta learn to take the losing in stride. You're not doing yourself a favor by having blanket negativity about the future. I'm not saying that I always believe that glory is around the corner. I guess I'm just cautiously optimistic. Does this make me a Cubs fan?

PhillipsBubba
06-01-2010, 07:08 PM
Cheer up Sox fans...it says in the Trib today (06/01) that KW still believes in this team!!!:scratch:

It's Dankerific
06-01-2010, 07:21 PM
Cheer up Sox fans...it says in the Trib today (06/01) that KW still believes in this team!!!:scratch:

Is this a time that we all know KW is telling us all the truth or one where he's full of **** and we should know he's full of ****?

khan
06-01-2010, 07:41 PM
http://stillfootball.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/khaaaaan.jpgI understand your frustration, and your assessment of the team is mostly correct. I just can't get as pissed off and worked up as much as a lot of you can.
Actually, I am much less distressed than you portray me to be. Since it was PLAINLY OBVIOUS to anyone who was paying attention during this past offseason that this team would suck, I have been at peace with this reality for a long time.

In fact, for FAR LONGER than many of the former pollyannas who are only NOW 'sticking a fork' into this season.


It's not that I'm not a die-hard fan. I live and die with every game. I follow the news behind these guys each and every day. I'm going to probably around 12 games this season on a college kid's budget.
Damn, college must be different today than when I went to school. I couldn't have gone to 12 games [EDIT] when I was in school, but then I WOULDN'T go to 12 games this year, not with THIS team.


I guess I just can't bring myself to get furious over stuff like this. I guess I just find a way to take losing in stride. Life's too short to let the state of a baseball team rattle me so. I can be frustrated, yes. I can be furious over specific games, yes. But I guess in some sense I am an optimist. I know that a lot of these players are better than they're performing. I also know that it is an incredibly long shot that we'll make anything resembling a true "run" at the thing this year. But I don't find having an ultra-competitive team to be necessary for me to live a happy life, or to even just enjoy baseball season. We're Sox fans. We've seen some bad days. Gotta learn to take the losing in stride. You're not doing yourself a favor by having blanket negativity about the future. I'm not saying that I always believe that glory is around the corner. I guess I'm just cautiously optimistic.
Yes, I'm disappointed in my team, but that's the true nature of fandom, IMO. And YES, I'm disappointed in the apparent lack of direction, lack of vision, lack of any sort of planning that would indicate that our SOX will be competitive in 2010, and possibly beyond 2010. But, I have other sporting interests, such as the FIRE, the 'HAWKS, the World Cup, and FC Barcelona.

Therefore, I think you're pretty badly mis-reading my previous post. Believe me, I've got PLENTY of other things to divert me. While I will still enjoy baseball, I won't spend as much time and money on White Sox baseball. [At least, for this year.]

However, I will ALWAYS cheer the SOX, and every player that plays for them. But again:

A realistic appraisal of the SOX does NOT mean that I'm "furious" or "pissed off" or whatever misplaced terms you used to describe people that have a balanced view of the team. They suck at baseball right now. I don't think that makes me [or anyone else with this view] "pissed off." [Though I WAS pissed off during the offseason.]

Does this make me a Cubs fan?
No, it doesn't make you a scubs fan. That is, unless you just show up at the park, and don't know a damn thing about the game or about the team.

voodoochile
06-01-2010, 07:46 PM
Actually, I am much less distressed than you portray me to be. Since it was PLAINLY OBVIOUS to anyone who was paying attention during this past offseason that this team would suck, I have been at peace with this reality for a long time.

In fact, for FAR LONGER than many of the former pollyannas who are only NOW 'sticking a fork' into this season.


Just to be picky, that wasn't you in the picture it was Kirk who is (in theory) screaming "KHAAAAANNNNN!!!" It's from the Star Trek movie "The Wrath of Khan". Hope that helps...

Medford Bobby
06-01-2010, 07:50 PM
I'm hanging in until the end of the season when Bob Elson calls the final out....:wink:

khan
06-01-2010, 07:54 PM
Just to be picky, that wasn't you in the picture it was Kirk who is (in theory) screaming "KHAAAAANNNNN!!!" It's from the Star Trek movie "The Wrath of Khan". Hope that helps...

Umm.....

No offense, but:

Could you re-work this into something more readable? I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.

voodoochile
06-01-2010, 08:02 PM
Umm.....

No offense, but:

Could you re-work this into something more readable? I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.

In the Star Trek movie "The Wrath of Khan", the villain(whose name is Khan) is doing something to really piss off James T. Kirk who is the captain of the Enterprise spaceship (the good guys).

Kirk screams "KHAAAAAANNNNNN!" to vent his frustration and show how angry he is. I assume that's the actual image from the actual scene in that picture, but if not, it's a close enough.

Khan later sets off a bomb which will kill both him and in theory Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise also and says, "To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"

Yes, it's overly dramatic, but Ricardo Montalban was playing Khan so it's understandable...

khan
06-01-2010, 08:05 PM
In the Star Trek movie "The Wrath of Khan", the villain(whose name is Khan) is doing something to really piss off James T. Kirk who is the captain of the Enterprise spaceship (the good guys).

Kirk screams "KHAAAAAANNNNNN!" to vent his frustration and show how angry he is. I assume that's the actual image from the actual scene in that picture, but if not, it's a close enough.

Khan later sets off a bomb which will kill both him and in theory Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise also and says, "To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"

Yes, it's overly dramatic, but Ricardo Montalban was playing Khan so it's understandable...

Yes, I'm well aware of [pretty much] the only watchable movie out of the original Star Trek series of movies.

But I suppose that I'm failing to understand in what way this movie connects to my previous post, outside my name on these boards. Could you help me out here?

WhiteSox5187
06-01-2010, 08:06 PM
In the Star Trek movie "The Wrath of Khan", the villain(whose name is Khan) is doing something to really piss off James T. Kirk who is the captain of the Enterprise spaceship (the good guys).

Kirk screams "KHAAAAAANNNNNN!" to vent his frustration and show how angry he is. I assume that's the actual image from the actual scene in that picture, but if not, it's a close enough.

Khan later sets off a bomb which will kill both him and in theory Kirk and the crew of the Enterprise also and says, "To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!"

Yes, it's overly dramatic, but Ricardo Montalban was playing Khan so it's understandable...

The Simpsons' used that quote, I always figured it was from Shakespeare or some other literary work.

voodoochile
06-01-2010, 08:06 PM
Yes, I'm well aware of [pretty much] the only watchable movie out of the original Star Trek series of movies.

But I suppose that I'm failing to understand in what way this movie connects to my previous post, outside my name on these boards. Could you help me out here?

No, it's your name.

Oh and the fact you constantly sound very pissed off when you post...

Edit: Oh and if you know the movie, that post was plenty readable. Leaves me feeling like Kirk...

khan
06-01-2010, 08:15 PM
No, it's your name.

Oh and the fact you constantly sound very pissed off when you post...
Fair enough. If the SOX front office had a higher degree of competence, perhaps I could be as happy about this team as a blind, drunk monkey.

By the way, happy belated birthday to you.

Edit: Oh and if you know the movie, that post was plenty readable. Leaves me feeling like Kirk...

Well, as a [EDIT] germane response to what my previous post stated about the SOX, not really. But then, that's one man's opinion.

As a commentary on how you perceive my posts, I suppose you could feel the way you do.

voodoochile
06-01-2010, 08:18 PM
Fair enough. If the SOX front office had a higher degree of competence, perhaps I could be as happy about this team as a blind, drunk monkey.

By the way, happy belated birthday to you.



Well, as a cogent response to what my previous post stated about the SOX, not really. But then, that's one man's opinion.

As a commentary on how you perceive my posts, I suppose you could feel the way you do.

Nice, but technically, I'm a deaf, sober homonid...

khan
06-01-2010, 08:22 PM
Nice, but technically, I'm a deaf, sober homonid...

I think you've read too much into that post. Nowhere does it make the association of the blind, drunk monkey with you. Rather, it stated that if KW would show a greater ability to do his job [such as stop giving away value and making stupid decisions], that I would be as happy as said blind, drunk monkey, not you.

I think you're actively LOOKING for some reason to find offense with what I post, when there really isn't any reason to do so.

voodoochile
06-01-2010, 08:31 PM
I think you've read too much into that post. Nowhere does it make the association of the blind, drunk monkey with you. Rather, it stated that if KW would show a greater ability to do his job [such as stop giving away value and making stupid decisions], that I would be as happy as said blind, drunk monkey, not you.

I think you're actively LOOKING for some reason to find offense with what I post, when there really isn't any reason to do so.

Actually, I was chuckling, but it could have been read that way. You mention a blind drunken monkey and that seems to trigger your memory that I had a birthday, but no worries, as I said, I was chuckling and thanks for the good wishes...

Daver
06-01-2010, 08:36 PM
I think you've read too much into that post. Nowhere does it make the association of the blind, drunk monkey with you. Rather, it stated that if KW would show a greater ability to do his job [such as stop giving away value and making stupid decisions], that I would be as happy as said blind, drunk monkey, not you.

I think you're actively LOOKING for some reason to find offense with what I post, when there really isn't any reason to do so.


Someone is living in your head, rent free.

khan
06-01-2010, 08:38 PM
Someone is living in your head, rent free.

Indeed. I guess I was still taken aback by the initial post by Voodoo...


In any case, here's hoping that AJ will go on a tear for the next ~13 days, so that his value will go up.

Nelfox02
06-01-2010, 10:04 PM
cant take it anymore

watching this game tonight----4 run lead, looked like we would continue to batter Harden

And then Mark pitches like garbage the whole game, more stupid defensive plays, offense goes into hibernation after early success, Sergio implodes......I just cant take it anymore

I now join the forking crowd 100% for quite some time my head said this team would not contend----now my heart is finally in agreement

SI1020
06-01-2010, 10:10 PM
This season is turning into a train wreck.

Daver
06-01-2010, 10:14 PM
Indeed. I guess I was still taken aback by the initial post by Voodoo...


In any case, here's hoping that AJ will go on a tear for the next ~13 days, so that his value will go up.


Trading AJ is about the dumbest move this team could make right now.

Nelfox02
06-01-2010, 10:16 PM
its been said before, but I say it again----yeah this offense is not good, yeah guys on this offense have REALLY struggled, but the starting staff advertised to be one of the "elite" in MLB has been anything but......and now even Danks is looking scary the last few starts

sox1970
06-01-2010, 10:17 PM
This season is turning into a train wreck.

That's what happens when you start 5-11, including 1-5 against the Indians. They've been 17-17 since, but those first 11 losses won't be going away.

WhiteSox5187
06-01-2010, 10:46 PM
cant take it anymore

watching this game tonight----4 run lead, looked like we would continue to batter Harden

And then Mark pitches like garbage the whole game, more stupid defensive plays, offense goes into hibernation after early success, Sergio implodes......I just cant take it anymore

I now join the forking crowd 100% for quite some time my head said this team would not contend----now my heart is finally in agreement

This is a huge game for the rest of the season, but it's not over yet. Theoretically they can still win it.

Boondock Saint
06-01-2010, 10:46 PM
Trading AJ is about the dumbest move this team could make right now.

I don't see how it makes any difference. This team isn't going to leap into contention in the next month, and after the Sox sell off their valuable pieces, they won't be contending next season, either. The Sox could easily sign a veteran in the offseason to teach Lucy or Flowers the ropes for a year or two. In my opinion, keeping AJ around is the dumbest move they could make.

Nelfox02
06-01-2010, 11:04 PM
I don't see how it makes any difference. This team isn't going to leap into contention in the next month, and after the Sox sell off their valuable pieces, they won't be contending next season, either. The Sox could easily sign a veteran in the offseason to teach Lucy or Flowers the ropes for a year or two. In my opinion, keeping AJ around is the dumbest move they could make.


Agree

While I dont think we will get a big haul for AJ, I do think there will be some demand for him out there, even beyond this Ranger team we are playing now He can still be a solid hitter, he handles a staff well, and as we all knowwell, he has a knack for doing the little things that can get you big wins why keep him around just to surely let him go in this coming off season?