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NLaloosh
05-18-2010, 06:46 AM
I'm not making any judgements here just pointing out a curiosity that I just noticed about last night's games:

All 3 of these pitchers picked up wins on Monday night and have winning records-


Gio Gonzalez 4-3 4.05

Clayton Richard 3-2 2.94

John Ely 2-1 3.51

Slappy
05-18-2010, 07:03 AM
I really started to like Richard around the time he got traded. Was sad to see him go, but what are you gonna do.

I don't know much about Ely, but I believe he was packaged in the deal for Pierre? Was he a highly regarded prospect around MLB?

Gio seems like he's making progress, too, and had a nice line last night. Both are solid lefty arms and will most likely just get better.

jabrch
05-18-2010, 10:09 AM
Good day to be a former Sox pitching prospect.

DirtySox
05-18-2010, 10:44 AM
I really started to like Richard around the time he got traded. Was sad to see him go, but what are you gonna do.

I don't know much about Ely, but I believe he was packaged in the deal for Pierre? Was he a highly regarded prospect around MLB?

Gio seems like he's making progress, too, and had a nice line last night. Both are solid lefty arms and will most likely just get better.

I'm a big Gio fan. Great curveball and lefthanded? Sign me up.

Ely is not a highly regarded prospect, despite Phil Roger's continued hand-wringing about the trade. He doesn't have the best stuff, but he gets good mileage out of what he has. He's not much more than a back-end starter.

mzh
05-18-2010, 11:18 AM
What can we hope to accomplish by talking about what might have been?

You can't turn back time, no point in whining about it now.

pythons007
05-18-2010, 11:39 AM
Peavy>>>>>>>Richard
Not really sure how to evaluate Gio since he was traded so many times
Thome>>>>GIO>>>>Swisher
Pierre>Ely at this present moment

khan
05-18-2010, 11:48 AM
Peavy>>>>>>>Richard
Agreed.

Thome>>>>GIO>>>>Swisher
Actually, your equation is unbalanced, in that it does not account for Jhonny Nunez, Wilson Betemit, Jeffrey Marquez, and the LOSS OF Kanekoa Teixeira, who is pitching in the bigs for Seattle.

Pierre>Ely at this present moment
And again, your equation is unbalanced. It does not account for the millions of dollars MORE that Pierre will get instead of Pods, PLUS the loss of Jon Link as well.

Rohan
05-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Agreed.


Actually, your equation is unbalanced, in that it does not account for Jhonny Nunez, Wilson Betemit, Jeffrey Marquez, and the LOSS OF Kanekoa Teixeira, who is pitching in the bigs for Seattle.


And again, your equation is unbalanced. It does not account for the millions of dollars MORE that Pierre will get instead of Pods, PLUS the loss of Jon Link as well.


These are all inequalities not equations :geezer:

WhiteSox5187
05-18-2010, 12:00 PM
Richard looks like he'll be a good pitcher but he is in a pitcher friendly park and we got Jake Peavy for him, I'd take that trade any day of the week.

The Ely trade might wind up back firing a bit especially when one sees how little Pods signed for, but, I'm not going to lose too much sleep over that.

The Gio-Swisher trade I hated at the time and still don't like. That might wind up being the one we regret the most. The guy is only 24 years old and has some experience in the majors already, he could progress to be a very good pitcher.

khan
05-18-2010, 12:24 PM
These are all inequalities not equations :geezer:

I just thought of that now, and was coming to correct it. :redface:

In any case, I suppose my point is that comparing player-to-player can't occur unless you account for losses and gains of money, and of assets to the minor league system, among other considerations.

TDog
05-18-2010, 12:41 PM
Richard looks like he'll be a good pitcher but he is in a pitcher friendly park and we got Jake Peavy for him, I'd take that trade any day of the week.

The Ely trade might wind up back firing a bit especially when one sees how little Pods signed for, but, I'm not going to lose too much sleep over that.

The Gio-Swisher trade I hated at the time and still don't like. That might wind up being the one we regret the most. The guy is only 24 years old and has some experience in the majors already, he could progress to be a very good pitcher.

Dismissing Richard's work as the fruits of pitching for a team with a pitcher-friendly home isn't much different from dismissing Peavy's work with the Padres because he pitched in a pitcher-friendly Park, although I believe Peavy ranks second or third in the number of 10-strikeout games since the beginning of 2007. Richard has been a very good pitcher in a very good pitcher.

You might say that if the White Sox had not traded for Peavy, kept Richard and used the money spent on his salary to improve the offense, the White Sox would likely have a stronger team, although that is a doubtful scenario as the White Sox probably wouldn't have three southpaws in the starting rotation. It is more likely, the White Sox would have gone after another starter and had Richard working long relief and spot starting, a role currently vacant on the current White Sox pitching staff.

Gio Gonzalez was trade fodder with the White Sox organization. He had two rough seasons pitching for the A's and has been inconsistent this year, although he has had stronger games this year than in the past. If he hadn't have been traded in the Nick Swisher deal, he probably would have gone somewhere. He isn't the pitcher Clayton Richard is.

You can lament that the White Sox didn't get more for Gio Gonzalez. It's unfortunate that Nick Swisher was ever given the chance to wear a White Sox uniform. But Gonzalez wasn't going to have a future with the organization as a starting pitcher, especially after the White Sox picked up John Danks. He wouldn't have been given the extended chance the A's have given him. Not many teams would have.

I'm expecting Gio Gonzalez to be the 21st century version of Jesse Jefferson. If he he can put together a .500 season this year with a few flashes of promise, the A's will trade him to another team where he arrive with promise but mostly disappoint.

KMcMahon817
05-18-2010, 12:56 PM
I really started to like Richard around the time he got traded. Was sad to see him go, but what are you gonna do.

I don't know much about Ely, but I believe he was packaged in the deal for Pierre? Was he a highly regarded prospect around MLB?

Gio seems like he's making progress, too, and had a nice line last night. Both are solid lefty arms and will most likely just get better.

I'll take Danks and Buerhle.

Don't really want a rotation full of lefties.

Ely is playing over his head right now. He was never really regarded as anything special. But, hey, I hope he sticks around and does well. I would still rather have Danks and Buehrle.

doublem23
05-18-2010, 03:18 PM
Lucky for them, they'd have losing records if they were here.

BadBobbyJenks
05-18-2010, 03:24 PM
Never really thought much of Gio and still don't. He has one pitch and it is his curveball. Maybe he will be a back end starter, but he is not very good.

TDog
05-18-2010, 03:38 PM
Lucky for them, they'd have losing records if they were here.

Coming into Tuesday's games, the Padres had scored 1 more run than the White Sox this season. That was after Richard with relief help beat the second-place Giants 3-1 and the White Sox were rained out on Monday.

Dick Allen
05-18-2010, 03:50 PM
Let's all remember that, except for Gio, these guys are pitching in the AAAA league.

Marqhead
05-18-2010, 03:54 PM
Let's all remember that, except for Gio, these guys are pitching in the AAAA league.

You mean the league with the NL wildcard 3 of the last 4 years?

BadBobbyJenks
05-18-2010, 04:03 PM
You mean the league with the NL wildcard 3 of the last 4 years?

What? NL vs AL.

Marqhead
05-18-2010, 04:04 PM
What? NL vs AL.

Doh! I thought he was referring specifically to the west.

TDog
05-18-2010, 04:24 PM
Doh! I thought he was referring specifically to the west.

The NL West is stronger than the AL Central.

Marqhead
05-18-2010, 04:26 PM
The NL West is stronger than the AL Central.

That was my original point.

Tragg
05-18-2010, 04:54 PM
I'm a big Gio fan. Great curveball and lefthanded? Sign me up.

Ely is not a highly regarded prospect, despite Phil Roger's continued hand-wringing about the trade. He doesn't have the best stuff, but he gets good mileage out of what he has. He's not much more than a back-end starter.
I just can't believe we had to give up anyone close to the majors for juan pierre.
Ely is a heck of a lot more than Williams could get for Swisher....
The deal-making is less than exemplary.

voodoochile
05-18-2010, 05:03 PM
I just can't believe we had to give up anyone close to the majors for juan pierre.
Ely is a heck of a lot more than Williams could get for Swisher....
The deal-making is less than exemplary.

Is Nunez really that much of a lesser prospect than Ely?

35th and Shields
05-18-2010, 05:14 PM
The NL West is stronger than the AL Central.

I'll take the Twins and Tigers over any team in the NL West.

mzh
05-18-2010, 05:36 PM
I'll take the Twins and Tigers over any team in the NL West.
Who of them other than Mauer, Morneau, and Cabrera would you take over a member of the Dodgers/Rockies/Giants/Pads?

tm1119
05-18-2010, 06:04 PM
Im really not worried about Ely. He is just a rookie that batters havent seen yet. His stuff really isnt good enough to sustain this kind of success. Give him a few more starts and you'll start to see that ERA rise. Hes nothing more than a 5th starter in NL(wouldnt last in the AL).

I think we all knew the talent Gio possessed, and I think we have all already discussed how bad KW messed up the Swisher fiasco. No need to go there anymore. Everyone gets 1 mulligan.

And as others have pointed out Peavy is much better than Richard so you really cant complain about that deal. Does it make anybody feel good that Poreda is pitching in middle relief in AA with a 12:17 K/BB ratio? And how about Dexter Carter? 6 ERA in A ball with 26 K's and 21 BB's in 34 IP. Oh, and Adam Russel has an 8 ERA in AAA as well. Gotta feel good about those 3 at least.

TDog
05-18-2010, 06:10 PM
I'll take the Twins and Tigers over any team in the NL West.

And you would be a loser.

Hitmen77
05-19-2010, 09:45 AM
I'm not making any judgements here just pointing out a curiosity that I just noticed about last night's games:

All 3 of these pitchers picked up wins on Monday night and have winning records-


Gio Gonzalez 4-3 4.05

Clayton Richard 3-2 2.94

John Ely 2-1 3.51

This is the price you pay when you continually fail to develop your own talent and need to constantly trade minor league talent to fill holes in your roster.

Unfortunately, Kenny's "luck" of having all the talent he trades away fizzle for other teams isn't going to last forever.

Kenny's smoke and mirrors approach to building the White Sox lineup doesn't work. 2005 was like catching lightning in a bottle and you can't just expect all the scrap pieces to fall together like that again. Our system has produced almost nothing for many years now, so we have to trade what little good talent we have for the likes of Nick Swisher and Juan Pierre.

As far as Richard goes, we weren't going to get Jake Peavy for junk. I have no problem with having Peavy instead of Richard. The problem is that the Sox apparently can't afford to pay him AND have enough money left over to acquire another legitimate hitter.

Hopefully we'll get better results from our minor league system shakeup that started in 2008. Until that happens, the Sox don't have Yankees/Red Sox....or even Tigers money to buy a contender.

canOcorn
05-19-2010, 10:12 AM
I'll take the Twins and Tigers over any team in the NL West.

Pretty much. I like the Rockies, but their staff has been sputtering along, outside of Ubaldo. And their offense has been pretty average too.

Giants have no offense, Dodgers have no pitching, the Friars are a mirage and the Dbacks might have the worst pitching in baseball.

Tragg
05-19-2010, 10:46 PM
Is Nunez really that much of a lesser prospect than Ely?
Maybe not....but Pierre is a far lesser player than Swisher.
And we also sent another pitcher for Pierre
Heck, the Sox got one prospect for Vazuez

The dealmaking hasn't been particularly sharp.

voodoochile
05-19-2010, 11:07 PM
Maybe not....but Pierre is a far lesser player than Swisher.
And we also sent another pitcher for Pierre
Heck, the Sox got one prospect for Vazuez

The dealmaking hasn't been particularly sharp.

They also freed up money for Peavy.

Some of these deals have been due to budget issues which have been compounded by the weak economy.

doublem23
05-20-2010, 12:44 AM
And you would be a loser.

Probably not, the Twins especially. They'd win that division walking away. Detroit, eh, they'd hang around.

The NL West is padded because it is in the NL. That division is really more entertaining than it is good. Colorado and Arizona, for example, would not make it a day in the American League.

Tragg
05-21-2010, 11:00 AM
They also freed up money for Peavy.

Some of these deals have been due to budget issues which have been compounded by the weak economy.

Okay- but let's be consistent.
In this economy, shouldn't we have been able to get Peavy for a major bargain in terms of players, if we were willing to take on his immense salary AND pluck him sight unseen from the Disabled List? Especially since supposedly we had to give Swisher away because of his salary (a year after giving 3 of our top 7 prospects for him). And further considering that the Padres are budget constrained and the Yankees aren't shouldn't we have been able to cut a major bargain in terms of players given up.

And then look at Juan Pierre....why pay young talent, when we got pure junk for Swisher?
We simply are not seeing SHARP dealmaking.

And then there's the bottom line. 5.74 ERA for peavy....3 out of 4 terrible seasons, despite a top tier payroll.