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Brian26
05-17-2010, 07:03 PM
FWIW, Ranger mentioned that he heard a couple of stories through Cowley on the pre-game show right before the game was called-

Ozzie and Kenny had a lengthy text conversation today regarding the AJ rumors. KW told Ozzie to not throw in the towel yet and make sure AJ knows it. The quote was "we're not at that point....yet."

Ozzie and KW apparently disagree on the direction of the team. One of them wants to make a change to the coaching staff immediately, the other doesn't.

JB98
05-17-2010, 07:04 PM
I posted a link in the clubhouse, but it's relevant to this thread, too:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2283944,sox-coaching-staff-changes-051710.article

VMSNS
05-17-2010, 07:41 PM
Is it me, or does it seem like there's been an awful amount of tension between KW and Ozzie this season, starting around the time of SoxFest?

...and why would AJ want to "throw in the towel?" If he plays better, he'll yield a better return for us.

voodoochile
05-17-2010, 07:46 PM
Is it me, or does it seem like there's been an awful amount of tension between KW and Ozzie this season, starting around the time of SoxFest?

...and why would AJ want to "throw in the towel?" If he plays better, he'll yield a better return for us.

I don't think that's what they are saying. I think it's more to address the trade rumors. KW is telling Ozzie to tell AJ not to worry about the trade stuff, because it's too soon to give up on the season and thus nothing is imminent.

At least that's the way I read it.

TDog
05-17-2010, 08:42 PM
I don't think that's what they are saying. I think it's more to address the trade rumors. KW is telling Ozzie to tell AJ not to worry about the trade stuff, because it's too soon to give up on the season and thus nothing is imminent.

At least that's the way I read it.

Of course, others will read what they like to reinforce their prejudices.

canOcorn
05-17-2010, 09:17 PM
Is it me, or does it seem like there's been an awful amount of tension between KW and Ozzie this season, starting around the time of SoxFest?



Sounds like Kenny wants to get rid of Walker, but doesn't know if he's stepping on Ozzie's toes. And KW knows that Oz carries more weight with JR than he does. It's sad that our GM needs to bow down to the managers wishes.

WhiteSox5187
05-17-2010, 09:25 PM
Sounds like Kenny wants to get rid of Walker, but doesn't know if he's stepping on Ozzie's toes. And KW knows that Oz carries more weight with JR than he does. It's sad that our GM needs to bow down to the managers wishes.

I think Kenny and Ozzie have equal pull with JR, I also think that like JR Ozzie is loyal to a fault and that is why he won't get rid of Walker.

WhiteSoxOnly
05-17-2010, 09:44 PM
No way Oz has as much juice as KW does with JR,and the proof
will be a coach getting canned if this bunch doesn't right the
ship pretty quick.

canOcorn
05-17-2010, 09:47 PM
I think Kenny and Ozzie have equal pull with JR, I also think that like JR Ozzie is loyal to a fault and that is why he won't get rid of Walker.

No way Oz has as much juice as KW does with JR,and the proof
will be a coach getting canned if this bunch doesn't right the
ship pretty quick.

Kenny is on record that Ozzie will outlast him with the Sox.

WhiteSoxOnly
05-17-2010, 10:08 PM
Kenny is on record that Ozzie will outlast him with the Sox.

I don't think i have seen any quote from KW regarding that but
i'll take your word for it but...any more of this losing **** and
Kenny won't give a rats ass about Ozzie's feelings about his
coaches.He won't care about stepping on Ozzie's toes either.
His patience with anything Guillen is running out.Now at some
point if Kenny decides he doesn't want the job anymore for
reasons other than Ozzie Guillen being a pain in his ass,then
maybe he goes first.Anyways,my two cents.

gosox41
05-17-2010, 10:11 PM
Sounds like Kenny wants to get rid of Walker, but doesn't know if he's stepping on Ozzie's toes. And KW knows that Oz carries more weight with JR than he does. It's sad that our GM needs to bow down to the managers wishes.

Maybe he's now doing it to prove a point. Not sure how it evolved to this. But Ozzie always wanted an NL team to show what a great manager he is. Now he has it. He called the shots on the roster so it's up to Ozzie to live and die with this. If it fails (and it looks like it is going in that directly) I'm certain KW will be calling the shots on personnel next year.

Like I said, I don't know how their relationship got to this point, but if the Sox win 75 games this year, the fans will see that this was Ozzie's team and it failed.

I only blame KW for not standing up more to Ozzie, but on the flip side, 3 third place finishes in 4 years makes it a tough argument for KW to say his way works wonders.


Bob

MARTINMVP
05-17-2010, 10:29 PM
I don't think that's what they are saying. I think it's more to address the trade rumors. KW is telling Ozzie to tell AJ not to worry about the trade stuff, because it's too soon to give up on the season and thus nothing is imminent.

At least that's the way I read it.

Throughout this entire mess of a season, I have more faith in KW than Ozzie to be honest with you.

voodoochile
05-17-2010, 10:32 PM
Sounds like Kenny wants to get rid of Walker, but doesn't know if he's stepping on Ozzie's toes. And KW knows that Oz carries more weight with JR than he does. It's sad that our GM needs to bow down to the managers wishes.

Don't managers generally get to hire their own coaching staff or is that only in football?

Tragg
05-17-2010, 11:14 PM
All that article really said was coaching and moving out payroll.

What about getting some young talent in here?

kaufsox
05-17-2010, 11:17 PM
Don't managers generally get to hire their own coaching staff or is that only in football?

I've wondered that too. It seems like it varies from team to team, even in other sports, like Vinnie Del Negro pretty much having no say in his assistants. I read somewhere on here that Ozzie was given control over coach hires in 2006. I have to admit, I don't care either way about Walker/Cooper/Cora. I'm not a big fan of firing someone just to do something. However, if KW truly believes getting rid of Walker is the right thing to do, then he should do it. I'd be very interested in seeing what the solution would be.

fusillirob1983
05-17-2010, 11:36 PM
Like I said, I don't know how their relationship got to this point, but if the Sox win 75 games this year, the fans will see that this was Ozzie's team and it failed.



Yes, Ozzie's made some mistakes. I'm going to blame the players mostly though. I'm not trying to call you out, but blame is to be distributed to Ozzie, Kenny and the coach staff, but the players should take a lot of the blame. This is more of a general statement toward a lot of the "fire Ozzie and Kenny panic" that has seem to set in. A lot of these guys are veterans, and the guys people thought would be a question mark ended up not being the question mark (Alex Rios and Andruw Jones).

I'm just going to list career and current year (through May 17th) batting averages for hitters and ERAs for pitchers. I know these two stats don't tell the whole story, and some will debate whether other stats tell a better story, OBP, OPS, whichever, they're all affected obviously. For the purpose of my post I believe these are sufficient. Unfortunately for a player like Beckham there's a pretty small sample size, Quentin, also a small sample size when he's healthy, and Alexei's career numbers include the summer months (not that it's an excuse, he really should learn how to hit better in the cold).

For the most part the regulars aren't living up to their potential. We also know Freddy's not going to be the Freddy from 2005 or earlier, but that's fine given our expectation of him as a 5th starter (and he's surprisingly been our second best SP this season).

Batting avg.
Pierre career: .299 2010: .247
Beckham career: .249 2010: .188
Konerko career: .277 2010: .263
Jones career: .257 2010: .255
Quentin career: .248 2010: .180
Rios career: .282 2010: .318
Teahen career: .267 2010: .218
Pierzynski career: .284 2010: .200
Ramirez career: .278 2010: .242

ERA
Buehrle career: 3.84 2010: 5.26
Peavy career: 3.34 2010: 5.37
Danks career: 3.91 2010: 2.25
Floyd career: 4.84 2010: 7.00
Garcia career: 4.10 2010: 4.75

Also, I'm aware you can't just look at stats in a vacuum, and questions have to exist regarding the use of Vizquel or Kotsay at inappropriate times, the batting order Ozzie puts together, various pitching vs. hitting matchups etc., which is why I'm not saying to not pass some of the blame onto him. Ozzie has not made that many mistakes this year though that made it so 4 of 5 starting pitchers have ERAs below their career averages and 8 of 9 regulars in the lineup are hitting below their career batting average.

TDog
05-18-2010, 12:46 AM
Don't managers generally get to hire their own coaching staff or is that only in football?

I don't know about football, but you are generally right as far as baseball is concerned. There are exceptions, and Greg Walker is one of them. Walker was promoted by management to the major leagues before Ozzie Guillen was hired from outside of the organization to be the manager. Don Cooper was promoted to major league pitching coach before Guillen was hired. Guillen brought in a couple of coaches, but not the hitting and pitching coaches. Jerry Manuel, on the other hand, bought in all of his coaches except Art Kusnyer in the bullpen, although as if in a prelude to his firing, the organization promoted Cooper and Walker who weren't brought in by Manuel.

It isn't unheard of that managers don't always have control over their own coaching staff. When Chuck Tanner came in as manager of the White Sox in 1971, he brought in Johnny Sain -- as I recall, he served as his own hitting coach. When he went to Oakland, the A's stipulated that he couldn't bring Johnny Sain with him, that Wes Stock would continue as the pitching coach.

I don't know if that means Walker and Cooper have more or less job security than they would if they were brought in by Guillen. But Guillen couldn't fire Walker or Cooper in a scapegoat move, although I doubt that is his style.

ewokpelts
05-18-2010, 02:43 AM
whipping boy as in brian paruch?

harwar
05-18-2010, 06:21 AM
Sounds like Kenny wants to get rid of Walker, but doesn't know if he's stepping on Ozzie's toes. And KW knows that Oz carries more weight with JR than he does. It's sad that our GM needs to bow down to the managers wishes.

i think it's the other way around actually .. it's no secret that Kenny and Ozzie are not best buddies but Ozzie and Greg Walker have had problems in the past and they pretty much give each other space .. Jerry Reinsdorf is the one that wanted a "family" of former White Sox to lead his team .. i've never liked the idea and think the best baseball minds should be in charge ..

salty99
05-18-2010, 09:03 AM
whipping boy as in brian paruch?

Yes he was on there with Ranger.

ewokpelts
05-18-2010, 10:33 AM
Yes he was on there with Ranger.ok. didnt know he's working the pre/post shows now

khan
05-18-2010, 11:18 AM
Yes, Ozzie's made some mistakes. I'm going to blame the players mostly though. I'm not trying to call you out, but blame is to be distributed to Ozzie, Kenny and the coach staff, but the players should take a lot of the blame. This is more of a general statement toward a lot of the "fire Ozzie and Kenny panic" that has seem to set in. A lot of these guys are veterans, and the guys people thought would be a question mark ended up not being the question mark (Alex Rios and Andruw Jones).
Sure, it's on the players.

But it is also on Ozzie for wanting a "flexible" roster, so that he could push more buttons. It is also on KW, for not KNOWING his manager's abilities, and KNOWING that this type of roster would not work.

I'll divide this list up [IMO] a little better:
Batting avg.
Pierzynski career: .284 2010: .200
He is definitely under-achieving. I think there is no mistaking this.

Pierre career: .299 2010: .247
Ramirez career: .278 2010: .242
Both of these guys are NOTORIOUS slow starters. IMO, they are doing EXACTLY what I'd think they'd do. Check back with them in a month or so.

Konerko career: .277 2010: .263
Jones career: .257 2010: .255
Rios career: .282 2010: .318
All of these guys are [currently] meeting or exceeding expectations. Konerko has hit for more power than he's shown in recent years, which doesn't show up on your comparison.

Beckham career: .249 2010: .188
Quentin career: .248 2010: .180
Teahen career: .267 2010: .218
I don't think that these numbers have any real meaning. The sample sizes for Beckham/Quentin are too small for the "career averages" to mean anything, while Teahen's numbers have to be seen through the prism of him being a utility player on a ****ty team.

Has Beckham even played in 162 MLB games yet? How can his "career" averages have ANY meaning at all?

With every passing second, 2008 fades further and further into the dustbin of baseball history. Quentin hasn't even FINISHED a complete MLB season, let alone PERFORM for an entire season. I hate to say this, but he looks like a 1-year wonder.

Teahen hasn't been a starter for YEARS. Even the stupid KC Royals organization KNEW THAT he's a utility player, yet KW/OG thought that he'd be a dandy starter.

What's more, it was utterly moronic to RELY on a china doll, a youngster, and a utility player to serve as 1/3 of the starting 9, WITHOUT some sort of alternatives. THIS makes the SOX's margin for error razor-thin. Sure, this roster could work, IF every-stinking-thing went their way.

But ONE mistake by a player or the manager, or ONE player underperforming, and this team is finitu. [As evidenced by the current level of achievement in this team.]


ERA
Buehrle career: 3.84 2010: 5.26
Peavy career: 3.34 2010: 5.37
Danks career: 3.91 2010: 2.25
Floyd career: 4.84 2010: 7.00
Garcia career: 4.10 2010: 4.75
I can't disagree that only Danks and Garcia are meeting expectations.

Also, I'm aware you can't just look at stats in a vacuum, and questions have to exist regarding the use of Vizquel or Kotsay at inappropriate times, the batting order Ozzie puts together, various pitching vs. hitting matchups etc., which is why I'm not saying to not pass some of the blame onto him. Ozzie has not made that many mistakes this year though that made it so 4 of 5 starting pitchers have ERAs below their career averages and 8 of 9 regulars in the lineup are hitting below their career batting average.
I say bull****. There is NO ****ING WAY that Vizquel should EVER DH. There is NO ****ING WAY Kotsay should bat higher than 8th or 9th, because he sucks. There is NO ****ING WAY that Beckham should be here instead of Charlotte, let alone batting him 2nd over and over and over and over again. [BTW, Beckham has 3 times as many Ks (15) so far in May as he does hits (5).]

Ozzie HORRIBLY mis-uses his roster's resources over and over and over and over again. He routinely puts players into a position to fail. From the stupid idea to try Uribe @ #2 in the lineup, to starting Mackowiac, to starting Erstad, to hitting Thome v. LHP, he's done this FOR YEARS.

Moses_Scurry
05-18-2010, 11:28 AM
If the starting pitchers were pitching as expected, the Sox would be within striking distance.

TDog
05-18-2010, 11:44 AM
If the starting pitchers were pitching as expected, the Sox would be within striking distance.

The would have a winning record, and the Twins would have at least one more loss.

fusillirob1983
05-19-2010, 12:45 AM
Both of these guys are NOTORIOUS slow starters. IMO, they are doing EXACTLY what I'd think they'd do. Check back with them in a month or so.I do realize they're slow starters, which is why I'm saying the players deserve a lot of the blame that the manager shouldn't. Ozzie can't suddenly take the blame for Ramirez and Pierre doing what they do at the beginning of each season. They're doing exactly what I think they'd do too.


All of these guys are [currently] meeting or exceeding expectations. Konerko has hit for more power than he's shown in recent years, which doesn't show up on your comparison.I know Konerko's power doesn't show up on my comparison. As mentioned, I decided to go with batting average knowing it's an imperfect measurement and that others, such as OPS, may be preferred by others. Would you prefer that I say 3 players are playing how they should or above how they should and 6 are not? Would you prefer I make a new post listing everyone's OPS? Yes, Konerko and Rios may end up higher than their career averages, maybe Jones is right around his, I would guess most everyone else would be lower, but I have no idea.


I don't think that these numbers have any real meaning. The sample sizes for Beckham/Quentin are too small for the "career averages" to mean anything, while Teahen's numbers have to be seen through the prism of him being a utility player on a ****ty team.
Has Beckham even played in 162 MLB games yet? How can his "career" averages have ANY meaning at all?

I think they have some meaning. Do you think Carlos Quentin is more of a career .180 hitter or career .248 hitter, or somewhere in between, or given his health and a full sample size, a better than .248 hitter?

Beckham's the one guy that I will agree, there is a question mark on just based on the fact that he hadn't played a full season. I'm going to step away from the numbers for a minute though. I'll use our former centerfielder from 2006-2009 who I won't name. People kept saying he needed some time and we hadn't seen him a full season. He never got much better and typically looked clueless at the plate. Last season we saw Gordon Beckham have a pretty good idea of what he was doing at the plate. This year he looks so lost. I think it's his own mental approach right now. It's just my opinion, but I think he has the talent to hit better than .188 at the major league level. I'm basing this on what I saw last year during his at bats. It was a small sample size of at bats, but he actually knew what he was doing. The league has adjusted, so he'll have to make his own. Compound that with the fact that he's currently in his own head, which he's basically admitted during his interviews on The Score the last couple weeks, and you have a player who's underperforming based on his own standards.

Teahen hasn't been a starter for YEARS. Even the stupid KC Royals organization KNEW THAT he's a utility player, yet KW/OG thought that he'd be a dandy starter.Mark Teahen's career # of at-bats by season

2005: 447
2006: 393
2007: 544
2008: 572
2009: 524

Those last 3 seem like close to full seasons to me. His worst of those last 3, he hit .255. He hit .246 in 2005, his rookie season. All his other seasons were above .255. Also, because he can play several positions (not really all that well, but I'm currently discussing offense) makes him a utility player, technically. He's never been a player that primarily comes off the bench though. Should he? I'm not sure. I'm not going to defend him as a starter and say he's any good on defense, nor is he worth his contract, but I know he's better than a career .218 hitter while playing nearly full-time. I think more than 2,500 at-bats is a large enough sample size. It's not Ozzie's or Kenny's fault that someone who hit .267 over 2,500 at-bats and is currently 28 years old is now only hitting .218 and looks awful.

What's more, it was utterly moronic to RELY on a china doll, a youngster, and a utility player to serve as 1/3 of the starting 9, WITHOUT some sort of alternatives. THIS makes the SOX's margin for error razor-thin. Sure, this roster could work, IF every-stinking-thing went their way.The Sox didn't need every stinking thing to go their way in regards to Beckham, Quentin, and Teahen. They just needed to continue performing in the present how they have in the past. Given that they are 23, 27, and 28 years old, respectively, I don't think many would have predicted a plummit in performance based on age. Maybe Beckham would regress and have a sophomore slump. That happens, but .188 is a bad slump. I haven't surveyed a large group of Sox fans, but I think a very small percentage would have guessed on Opening Day that both Beckham and a healthy Quentin would be our worst hitters on May 18th. Sure, you can blame Kenny for putting together the roster. I'm not not blaming him, because he did put this team together, but the guys that it seemed like most people had concerns about before the season started were the Jones/Kotsay platoon and Alex Rios as well as Jenks (who's been terrible). Quentin's health was a question to an extent, but from what I've read and heard, it seemed like most thought he'd be okay if healthy.




I say bull****. There is NO ****ING WAY that Vizquel should EVER DH. There is NO ****ING WAY Kotsay should bat higher than 8th or 9th, because he sucks. There is NO ****ING WAY that Beckham should be here instead of Charlotte, let alone batting him 2nd over and over and over and over again. [BTW, Beckham has 3 times as many Ks (15) so far in May as he does hits (5).]

Ozzie HORRIBLY mis-uses his roster's resources over and over and over and over again. He routinely puts players into a position to fail. From the stupid idea to try Uribe @ #2 in the lineup, to starting Mackowiac, to starting Erstad, to hitting Thome v. LHP, he's done this FOR YEARS.Hopefully the full sentence of

"Ozzie has not made that many mistakes this year though that made it so 4 of 5 starting pitchers have ERAs below their career averages and 8 of 9 regulars in the lineup are hitting below their career batting average."

from my previous post was read and not just the part that you bolded. I definitely had a paragraph touching on Ozzie's mistakes. The full sentence (not just the bolded part) basically summarizes my entire previous post though. I can go in a circle and explain that I've included some qualifiers related to said summary, but that wouldn't add any more value to the discussion at this point.

Mohoney
05-19-2010, 02:30 AM
If the starting pitchers were pitching as expected, the Sox would be within striking distance.

I don't know if all the blame can go on the starting pitching yet. Sure, they were supposed to be better, and this team was built knowing that there would be hitting and defensive deficiencies, but can't the offense help out once in a while to take some of the pressure off? Is that too much to ask?

Craig Grebeck
05-19-2010, 07:45 AM
The would have a winning record, and the Twins would have at least one more loss.
TDog, honest question: is the offense ever to blame? You seem to blame the Sox staff anytime the pitching fails to hold a lead, even if it's 2-1 or something similar.

Tragg
05-19-2010, 08:25 AM
Yes if everything had gone right the Sox would be in "striking distance" of a bad division. When you have a top 5 payroll, you shouldn't need everything to go right.
This Teahan business is inexusable - how could professionals be that wrong in evaluation of a player with a big resume?
Why does this roster support so little young talent?
Yes many players have had off seasons. But the general manager hasn't made an inspired trade in 3 years, and has made some bad ones in that time; he has also built a roster to the manager's specifications, when the manager has preferences that minimize the ability to score runs (worrying about bunting and stealing more than getting on base) and is poor at evaluating talent. Both of these guys have debased defense since the 2005 season.

The Immigrant
05-19-2010, 08:40 AM
Yes if everything had gone right the Sox would be in "striking distance" of a bad division.

The Twins and the Tigers have shown they can play with anyone, so I'm not sure what makes this a bad division. It's certainly better than the AL West and at least 2 of the 3 divisions in the NL, and I would argue all 3.

Hitmen77
05-19-2010, 08:50 AM
ERA
Buehrle career: 3.84 2010: 5.26
Peavy career: 3.34 2010: 5.37
Danks career: 3.91 2010: 2.25
Floyd career: 4.84 2010: 7.00
Garcia career: 4.10 2010: 4.75



As if 2010 hasn't been a big enough failure, the only starting pitcher who has been great for us is also the one who is due for a huge raise next year.

Moses_Scurry
05-19-2010, 09:47 AM
TDog, honest question: is the offense ever to blame? You seem to blame the Sox staff anytime the pitching fails to hold a lead, even if it's 2-1 or something similar.

The starting pitching has been AWFUL (relative to expectations)!! We're not talking about failure to hold a 2-1 lead. Peavy has given up 4+ in a majority of his starts. Buehrle has given up 4+ in a majority of his starts. Floyd has given up 4+ in a majority of his starts. None of them are going far into the games. I blame the offense, but I blame the starting pitchers more than the offense. Freddy has been as expected (average) and Danks has been pretty good. The other three have cost the Sox quite a few losses. It's tough to rely on a good offense to bail you out night after night, let alone a mediocre one.

Craig Grebeck
05-19-2010, 10:48 AM
The starting pitching has been AWFUL (relative to expectations)!! We're not talking about failure to hold a 2-1 lead. Peavy has given up 4+ in a majority of his starts. Buehrle has given up 4+ in a majority of his starts. Floyd has given up 4+ in a majority of his starts. None of them are going far into the games. I blame the offense, but I blame the starting pitchers more than the offense. Freddy has been as expected (average) and Danks has been pretty good. The other three have cost the Sox quite a few losses. It's tough to rely on a good offense to bail you out night after night, let alone a mediocre one.
My point is, no matter the expectations, it's a poor strategy to rely on a below average defense and a below average offense because there's a strong starting staff in place. Pitchers are bound to have down nights, and the offense has to pick them up.

Moses_Scurry
05-19-2010, 11:22 AM
My point is, no matter the expectations, it's a poor strategy to rely on a below average defense and a below average offense because there's a strong starting staff in place. Pitchers are bound to have down nights, and the offense has to pick them up.

I agree with that, but saying that the starting staff has had a "few down nights" is being very generous to the starting staff. 3/5 of them have stunk more often than they have not stunk and one of them has stunk as often as he has not stunk.

TDog
05-19-2010, 11:45 AM
TDog, honest question: is the offense ever to blame? You seem to blame the Sox staff anytime the pitching fails to hold a lead, even if it's 2-1 or something similar.

I watch the Giants and I watch the Padres, and I see the pitching I expected from the White Sox this year. The Giants are getting a little more offense than expected, but the Padres are actually getting less but are in first place. The Padres have scored just one run more than the White Sox this year after scoring two with two outs in the 12th Tuesday night when down three to the Giants closer.

You don't need much offense if you have great pitching. The longer the starting pitching keeps you in a game, the more you will have the opportunity to hit and run and do things aggressively to score runs. Early in the season, the White Sox were getting the lead in every game they played. The starting pitching couldn't go deep enough into the game or the bullpen gave up the lead.

People complain that the pitchers have to pitch under the pressure of knowing they have to pitch a shutout. But the pressure of hitting when you are down by multiple runs is more than just mental. Large deficits take you out of your smallball game. It is true that the White Sox would be over .500 if they had scored all the runners they got to third with less than two outs in games decided by one run or in extra innings, so the offense isn't totally blameless, but success in that area would have little or no affect on their batting average. But if you're down by three runs and get a leadoff double (or a walk followed by a stolen base early in the count to the second hitter of the inning), getting him to third base with one out is not your primary offensive objective.

It isn't that the White Sox are suffering from being a pitching-centered team in the offense-heavy American League. The White Sox have not pitched well compared with the rest of the American League. Their ERA is about a quarter of a run below the league average despite giving up fewer home runs than the league average (i.e., home runs at the Cell are not to blame). The White Sox focused their resources on pitching, but teams that focused their resources on hitting have been getting better results from their pitchers.

If this were 1977, I would blame the offense because the team had no pitching, which is why they were a third-place team that finished 13 games out of first. (On a given night, I would blame Ralph Garr for being called out after passing Jim Essian on the basepaths after hitting a ball over the right-centerfield wall in Minnesota in a one-run loss, for example.) The problem with having a great offensive team is that great pitching will shut you down.

The short answer to your question is that I don't see the offense as the problem. The problem is that the White Sox pitching hasn't approached greatness needed to shut down other offenses this season.

Craig Grebeck
05-19-2010, 11:45 AM
I agree with that, but saying that the starting staff has had a "few down nights" is being very generous to the starting staff. 3/5 of them have stunk more often than they have not stunk and one of them has stunk as often as he has not stunk.
Of course. They haven't been good, but I watched Floyd's start the other night, and I think a quality defense picks him up more there.

As would a major league quality offense, something we lack at this point in time.

Craig Grebeck
05-19-2010, 11:47 AM
I watch the Giants and I watch the Padres, and I see the pitching I expected from the White Sox this year. The Giants are getting a little more offense than expected, but the Padres are actually getting less but are in first place. The Padres have scored just one run more than the White Sox this year after scoring two with two outs in the 12th Tuesday night when down three to the Giants closer.

You don't need much offense if you have great pitching. The longer the starting pitching keeps you in a game, the more you will have the opportunity to hit and run and do things aggressively to score runs. Early in the season, the White Sox were getting the lead in every game they played. The starting pitching couldn't go deep enough into the game or the bullpen gave up the lead.

People complain that the pitchers have to pitch under the pressure of knowing they have to pitch a shutout. But the pressure of hitting when you are down by multiple runs is more than just mental. Large deficits take you out of your smallball game. It is true that the White Sox would be over .500 if they had scored all the runners they got to third with less than two outs in games decided by one run or in extra innings, so the offense isn't totally blameless, but success in that area would have little or no affect on their batting average. But if you're down by three runs and get a leadoff double (or a walk followed by a stolen base early in the count to the second hitter of the inning), getting him to third base with one out is not your primary offensive objective.

It isn't that the White Sox are suffering from being a pitching-centered team in the offense-heavy American League. The White Sox have not pitched well compared with the rest of the American League. Their ERA is about a quarter of a run below the league average despite giving up fewer home runs than the league average (i.e., home runs at the Cell are not to blame). The White Sox focused their resources on pitching, but teams that focused their resources on hitting have been getting better results from their pitchers.

If this were 1977, I would blame the offense because the team had no pitching, which is why they were a third-place team that finished 13 games out of first. (On a given night, I would blame Ralph Garr for being called out after passing Jim Essian on the basepaths after hitting a ball over the right-centerfield wall in Minnesota in a one-run loss, for example.) The problem with having a great offensive team is that great pitching will shut you down.

The short answer to your question is that I don't see the offense as the problem. The problem is that the White Sox pitching hasn't approached greatness needed to shut down other offenses this season.
Fair enough -- I just prefer an offense that can pick up the pitching staff. I know they were assigned the load this season, and I'm sure they know that themselves, I just think there has to be a contingency plan. I feel like this season was predicated on the pitching being elite and if not, well, see you in 2011.

Moses_Scurry
05-19-2010, 11:52 AM
Fair enough -- I just prefer an offense that can pick up the pitching staff. I know they were assigned the load this season, and I'm sure they know that themselves, I just think there has to be a contingency plan. I feel like this season was predicated on the pitching being elite and if not, well, see you in 2011.

If the pitching were good, they would still in contention. The pitching has been really bad. They don't need to be elite. They just need to pitch as they're supposed to pitch!

TDog
05-19-2010, 12:10 PM
Fair enough -- I just prefer an offense that can pick up the pitching staff. I know they were assigned the load this season, and I'm sure they know that themselves, I just think there has to be a contingency plan. I feel like this season was predicated on the pitching being elite and if not, well, see you in 2011.

If the pitching were just very good, I think the offense would be better because it would be able to do more things and could put more pressure on the opposing defense.

As it is, Pierre and Ramirez have been slow starters in the past (at least Pierre starts slowly every time he comes to play in Chicago), and they seem to be coming around to midseason form. I hope Quentin is coming around to provide more than just one good game. Rios seems to be playing up to his abilities. Konerko is having a good season, and Jones seems to be back. I don't think the offense will be as bad as it has been through the first six weeks or so of the season.

If the pitching comes around, this could be a good team, and it really isn't too late.

RCWHITESOX
05-19-2010, 12:31 PM
If the pitching were just very good, I think the offense would be better because it would be able to do more things and could put more pressure on the opposing defense.

As it is, Pierre and Ramirez have been slow starters in the past (at least Pierre starts slowly every time he comes to play in Chicago), and they seem to be coming around to midseason form. I hope Quentin is coming around to provide more than just one good game. Rios seems to be playing up to his abilities. Konerko is having a good season, and Jones seems to be back. I don't think the offense will be as bad as it has been through the first six weeks or so of the season.

If the pitching comes around, this could be a good team, and it really isn't too late.

I agree with you. Lets give the team at least 50 games and see where they are at. I do however believe they need to do something at DH because they need help.

Lip Man 1
05-19-2010, 12:35 PM
Just stepping in with my view.

With respect to all, it's not just one area, one factor that has caused the problems, it is a basic inconsistency with this team.

One night they do get good starting pitching (yet the hitting is non-existent), another night the hitting puts up six runs (then the bullpen blows it), a third night the defense screws up causing a chain reaction (then this team which I consider mentally weak in general falls apart).

Ozzie has talked about the inconsistency all year, Linebrink today in the Sun-Times was directly quoted as saying he's seen guys get down in the dugout and the bench get quiet. Hell Konerko after the Cleveland series was quoted as talking about the hitters "pressing."

Basically my point is it's EVERYTHING with this club that looks like a mismatch / hodge podge of people, styles and abilities.

This stems in my opinion from Kenny's well publicized attitude of "rebuilding while contending."

That doesn't work.

Either you fully commit to going young, taking your lumps, having U.S. Cellular turn into a ghost town and pouring your resources into the farm system or you fully commit to getting top drawer players who are very good right now...not three years ago or coming off injuries or being underachievers with previous clubs. Get top talent not a number of guys you "hope" can rebound.

With the way the past three plus seasons have gone, I'd be satisfied with either route I guess, just pick a plan and stay with it.

Lip

WhiteSoxFTW
05-19-2010, 04:00 PM
I agree with you. Lets give the team at least 50 games and see where they are at. I do however believe they need to do something at DH because they need help.

Why wait 50 games? This season is over. The Wild Card is not coming out of the central. Barring a COMPLETE Twins implosion, we will have to win 90+ games to win the division. To win 90 games, we have to go 74 and 50 down the stretch. Throw in the fact that the Tigers are playing pretty damn well and we REALLY have a problem here. That's 24 games over .500. Do you really think this team can keep that pace? In the American League?

So we are in essense shooting for 2nd place at best unless two division teams die down the stretch and no playoff berth. Do we really want that as our goal?

voodoochile
05-19-2010, 04:21 PM
Why wait 50 games? This season is over. The Wild Card is not coming out of the central. Barring a COMPLETE Twins implosion, we will have to win 90+ games to win the division. To win 90 games, we have to go 74 and 50 down the stretch. Throw in the fact that the Tigers are playing pretty damn well and we REALLY have a problem here. That's 24 games over .500. Do you really think this team can keep that pace? In the American League?

So we are in essense shooting for 2nd place at best unless two division teams die down the stretch and no playoff berth. Do we really want that as our goal?


No no, far better to tank the season, trade absolutely everyone, decimate the farm system by calling everyone up regardless of whether they are ready to play in the majors and hope enough fans still come out where the budget won't be forced back to $75M next season creating a vicious and ever repeating circle of futility, frustration and endless second division finishes...

TDog
05-19-2010, 04:23 PM
Why wait 50 games? This season is over. The Wild Card is not coming out of the central. Barring a COMPLETE Twins implosion, we will have to win 90+ games to win the division. To win 90 games, we have to go 74 and 50 down the stretch. Throw in the fact that the Tigers are playing pretty damn well and we REALLY have a problem here. That's 24 games over .500. Do you really think this team can keep that pace? In the American League?

So we are in essense shooting for 2nd place at best unless two division teams die down the stretch and no playoff berth. Do we really want that as our goal?

With that attitude, you would only pay attention to the White Sox in years when they are the consensus pick to finish first, as in 1984.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-19-2010, 04:49 PM
No no, far better to tank the season, trade absolutely everyone, decimate the farm system by calling everyone up regardless of whether they are ready to play in the majors and hope enough fans still come out where the budget won't be forced back to $75M next season creating a vicious and ever repeating circle of futility, frustration and endless second division finishes...
With that attitude, you would only pay attention to the White Sox in years when they are the consensus pick to finish first, as in 1984.

Sorry, it's been a bad day at work. I went a little overboard. :(:

I still think the chance for winning the division and making the playoffs is gone, but I don't truly want them to give up. I would like to see some trades, though.

And, that's not true about me not paying attention to them. I will always pay attention.

khan
05-19-2010, 06:35 PM
I do realize they're slow starters, which is why I'm saying the players deserve a lot of the blame that the manager shouldn't.
So you agree that Ramirez/Pierre are slow starters. So that's 2 out of the 9 regulars that are probably on-track to do what they're supposed to do.

Yes, Konerko and Rios may end up higher than their career averages, maybe Jones is right around his, I would guess most everyone else would be lower, but I have no idea.
And here, you agree that Konerko/Rios/Jones are right around their career norms. This makes it 3 MORE regulars, thus 5 [so far] out of the 9 regulars.


I think they have some meaning. Do you think Carlos Quentin is more of a career .180 hitter or career .248 hitter, or somewhere in between, or given his health and a full sample size, a better than .248 hitter?
Quentin has played in [parts of] 4 seasons before this one. In looking at his history, he's had BA near or below .250 in 3 out of the 4 seasons.

2008 is looking like an EXTREME outlier.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7485/career;_ylt=AoK5lCngfJeCaHSw9gO7DkmFCLcF (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7485/career;_ylt=AoK5lCngfJeCaHSw9gO7DkmFCLcF)

Quentin makes it 6 out of 9 regulars that are doing what one can reasonably expect.

Beckham's the one guy that I will agree, there is a question mark on just based on the fact that he hadn't played a full season. I'm going to step away from the numbers for a minute though. I'll use our former centerfielder from 2006-2009 who I won't name.
You lost me after the bolded sentence. The CF who will remain nameless actually stayed in the minors longer than Beckham, and was sent down early on.

No matter HOW you spin it, Beckham's sample size in both the minor leagues and in MLB are too small to accurately forecast his career norms. There should have been a hedge vs. him possibly being a bust or him possibly having a sophomore slump.



Mark Teahen's career # of at-bats by season

2005: 447
2006: 393
2007: 544
2008: 572
2009: 524

Those last 3 seem like close to full seasons to me. His worst of those last 3, he hit .255. He hit .246 in 2005, his rookie season. All his other seasons were above .255. Also, because he can play several positions (not really all that well, but I'm currently discussing offense) makes him a utility player, technically. He's never been a player that primarily comes off the bench though. Should he? I'm not sure. I'm not going to defend him as a starter and say he's any good on defense, nor is he worth his contract, but I know he's better than a career .218 hitter while playing nearly full-time. I think more than 2,500 at-bats is a large enough sample size.

And that's not my point. Teahen did all of those things while playing a different role, on a ****tier team, BEFORE he got his obese contract.

ALL of these factors skew what Teahen is likely to be at this point.

The Sox didn't need every stinking thing to go their way in regards to Beckham, Quentin, and Teahen. They just needed to continue performing in the present how they have in the past.
Again:
1. Beckham has a TINY sample size, so you can't suggest he "continue performing." No one knows for sure what his career norms are.

2. Quentin's history in 75% of his seasons hereto fore place him AT or BELOW a .253 batting average for a career. 2008 is an extreme outlier, and 2010 looks more like Quentin's 2006, 2007, and 2009 seasons. He may be injured, but his numbers look like pretty much every season except his miracle 2008 season.

3. Teahen did better when less was asked of him, on a lesser team, BEFORE he had to get a contract. ALL of these things are likely to skew a player's performance downward. He looks like an expensive version of Mark DeRosa: Great when he's used as a utility player, ****ty as a starter.


I haven't surveyed a large group of Sox fans, but I think a very small percentage would have guessed on Opening Day that both Beckham and a healthy Quentin would be our worst hitters on May 18th. Sure, you can blame Kenny for putting together the roster.
As well fans SHOULD blame KW [and the players, and Ozzie]. $100M+ should buy a better, deeper team than this pile of ****.

But Beckham's lack of a true history, and Quentin's hereto fore inability to replicate 2008 or even remain healthy was a concern for me.

I'm not not blaming him, because he did put this team together, but the guys that it seemed like most people had concerns about before the season started were the Jones/Kotsay platoon and Alex Rios as well as Jenks (who's been terrible).
I remain concerned about Jones, because he's plummeted in the 2nd half in recent years.
Kotsay sucks, and NEVER should have been here instead of Thome for the same money.
I've BEEN concerned about Jenks for awhile.
Rios has outperformed my expectations.

Quentin's health was a question to an extent, but from what I've read and heard, it seemed like most thought he'd be okay if healthy.
I've been concerned that he's a 1-year wonder since last september or thereabouts. Look at his year-by-year numbers. [Sing it with me: "one of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong..."]


Hopefully the full sentence of

"Ozzie has not made that many mistakes this year though that made it so 4 of 5 starting pitchers have ERAs below their career averages and 8 of 9 regulars in the lineup are hitting below their career batting average."
1. You're factually incorrect here:

Pierre/Ramirez are on-track to hit their career norms by the end of the year. I suspect if you looked back at previous Aprils/Mays for these two, they are probably pretty close to their career norms, given the time of year.

Konerko/Jones/Rios are at or above their career norms, depending on which metric for hitting you choose.

Quentin is tracking his 2006, 2007, and 2009 numbers. 2008 is an outlier, so HE'S on-track for his career norms.

Beckham has no history, so it is very difficult to forecast his career norms.

So even if you suggest that Teahen is below his career norms, and AJ as well, that's still only 2 of 9 regulars that are either not on track to reach their career norms, or aren't there already.

2. Ozzie CONTINUES to put players into positions to fail. He's made PLENTY of mistakes in this and previous seasons in terms of his use of this roster. We could cite chapter and verse on this topic.

3. You cite 4 out of 5 SPs being below their career norms, but it's actually 3 of 5; I posit that Garcia's expectations have to be adjusted downward, due to his age and injury history.


In sum, this is a ****ty collection of talent who are generally meeting offensive expectations, and below pitching expectations, managed by a poor button-pusher. Therefore, I blame the underperforming players [who are actually fewer in number than one might think], the GM, AND the manager for the team's failures.

fusillirob1983
05-19-2010, 09:39 PM
I'm not even going to address anything. You're not even arguing the same point as me. You're arguing that KW put together a ****ty team, and I'm arguing that Ozzie is not the cause of some of the team not playing to their abilities. I never disagreed that Kenny doesn't deserve part of the blame. In fact that was stated in my first post. However, he put this team together, and all I'm saying is I've seen players on this team perform much better than they have, and Ozzie is not causing them to fail to the point that some of the players have. Has he contributed some? Yes, I said that in my first post. Is he the only reason? No, most of it's on the players. He can't swing the bat or throw the ball for them.

So you agree that Ramirez/Pierre are slow starters. So that's 2 out of the 9 regulars that are probably on-track to do what they're supposed to do.


And here, you agree that Konerko/Rios/Jones are right around their career norms. This makes it 3 MORE regulars, thus 5 [so far] out of the 9 regulars.



Quentin has played in [parts of] 4 seasons before this one. In looking at his history, he's had BA near or below .250 in 3 out of the 4 seasons.

2008 is looking like an EXTREME outlier.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7485/career;_ylt=AoK5lCngfJeCaHSw9gO7DkmFCLcF (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7485/career;_ylt=AoK5lCngfJeCaHSw9gO7DkmFCLcF)

Quentin makes it 6 out of 9 regulars that are doing what one can reasonably expect.


You lost me after the bolded sentence. The CF who will remain nameless actually stayed in the minors longer than Beckham, and was sent down early on.

No matter HOW you spin it, Beckham's sample size in both the minor leagues and in MLB are too small to accurately forecast his career norms. There should have been a hedge vs. him possibly being a bust or him possibly having a sophomore slump.





And that's not my point. Teahen did all of those things while playing a different role, on a ****tier team, BEFORE he got his obese contract.

ALL of these factors skew what Teahen is likely to be at this point.


Again:
1. Beckham has a TINY sample size, so you can't suggest he "continue performing." No one knows for sure what his career norms are.

2. Quentin's history in 75% of his seasons hereto fore place him AT or BELOW a .253 batting average for a career. 2008 is an extreme outlier, and 2010 looks more like Quentin's 2006, 2007, and 2009 seasons. He may be injured, but his numbers look like pretty much every season except his miracle 2008 season.

3. Teahen did better when less was asked of him, on a lesser team, BEFORE he had to get a contract. ALL of these things are likely to skew a player's performance downward. He looks like an expensive version of Mark DeRosa: Great when he's used as a utility player, ****ty as a starter.



As well fans SHOULD blame KW [and the players, and Ozzie]. $100M+ should buy a better, deeper team than this pile of ****.

But Beckham's lack of a true history, and Quentin's hereto fore inability to replicate 2008 or even remain healthy was a concern for me.


I remain concerned about Jones, because he's plummeted in the 2nd half in recent years.
Kotsay sucks, and NEVER should have been here instead of Thome for the same money.
I've BEEN concerned about Jenks for awhile.
Rios has outperformed my expectations.


I've been concerned that he's a 1-year wonder since last september or thereabouts. Look at his year-by-year numbers. [Sing it with me: "one of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong..."]



1. You're factually incorrect here:

Pierre/Ramirez are on-track to hit their career norms by the end of the year. I suspect if you looked back at previous Aprils/Mays for these two, they are probably pretty close to their career norms, given the time of year.

Konerko/Jones/Rios are at or above their career norms, depending on which metric for hitting you choose.

Quentin is tracking his 2006, 2007, and 2009 numbers. 2008 is an outlier, so HE'S on-track for his career norms.

Beckham has no history, so it is very difficult to forecast his career norms.

So even if you suggest that Teahen is below his career norms, and AJ as well, that's still only 2 of 9 regulars that are either not on track to reach their career norms, or aren't there already.

2. Ozzie CONTINUES to put players into positions to fail. He's made PLENTY of mistakes in this and previous seasons in terms of his use of this roster. We could cite chapter and verse on this topic.

3. You cite 4 out of 5 SPs being below their career norms, but it's actually 3 of 5; I posit that Garcia's expectations have to be adjusted downward, due to his age and injury history.


In sum, this is a ****ty collection of talent who are generally meeting offensive expectations, and below pitching expectations, managed by a poor button-pusher. Therefore, I blame the underperforming players [who are actually fewer in number than one might think], the GM, AND the manager for the team's failures.

khan
05-20-2010, 10:32 AM
I'm not even going to address anything. You're not even arguing the same point as me. You're arguing that KW put together a ****ty team, and I'm arguing that Ozzie is not the cause of some of the team not playing to their abilities. I never disagreed that Kenny doesn't deserve part of the blame. In fact that was stated in my first post. However, he put this team together, and all I'm saying is I've seen players on this team perform much better than they have, and Ozzie is not causing them to fail to the point that some of the players have. Has he contributed some? Yes, I said that in my first post. Is he the only reason? No, most of it's on the players. He can't swing the bat or throw the ball for them.

Actually, we're saying the same thing. From your first post:

"Yes, Ozzie's made some mistakes. I'm going to blame the players mostly though. I'm not trying to call you out, but blame is to be distributed to Ozzie, Kenny and the coach staff, but the players should take a lot of the blame. This is more of a general statement toward a lot of the "fire Ozzie and Kenny panic" that has seem to set in."

I agree with much of this, although the adage of, "You can't fire all 25 players" does ring true in this [and other] underperfoming teams.

Where we differ is in terms of how many players are actually underperforming. In the starting lineup, you suggest that it's 8 of 9 regulars that aren't performing.

I see it as being only 1 or 2 of the 9 as currently underperforming [AJ/Teahen, though there were plausible reasons why they had downside risk going into the season],

Another 1 of 9 that does not have enough of a sample size to forecast his likely production [Beckham and his 132 MLB games played in his career],

Another 2 of 9 that are trending towards their career norms [Pierre and Ramirez; For Pierre, a new team and a new league may have contributed towards his slow start],

And the rest are all at, near, or above their career norms [Quentin, Rios, Jones, and Konerko].


For the SPs, you say that it's 4 of 5 that are underperforming; I see it as 3 of 5 that are underperforming.

wassagstdu
05-20-2010, 12:05 PM
Maybe he's now doing it to prove a point. Not sure how it evolved to this. But Ozzie always wanted an NL team to show what a great manager he is. Now he has it. He called the shots on the roster so it's up to Ozzie to live and die with this. If it fails (and it looks like it is going in that directly) I'm certain KW will be calling the shots on personnel next year.

This team is dead last in BA and tops in HR. Ozzie's NL team? No, it is yet another example of the failure of the type of baseball that Ozzie is trying to change. Ozzie wants a team that can run, field, get on base, and hit with the situation -- as well as hit HR, not instead of. The running has improved. Bravo. Fielding? Not so much. Situational hitting? Yeah, right. This is no NL team.

Ozzie is wrong about Alexei Ramirez being a good shortstop. That I will put on him. Otherwise the failure of this team is a failure of execution and talent evaluation, not a failure of Ozzie's strategy.

SI1020
05-20-2010, 12:29 PM
Ozzie is wrong about Alexei Ramirez being a good shortstop. That I will put on him. Otherwise the failure of this team is a failure of execution and talent evaluation, not a failure of Ozzie's strategy. That is far from Ozzie's only failure at evaluating a player.

khan
05-20-2010, 02:22 PM
This team is dead last in BA and tops in HR. Ozzie's NL team? No, it is yet another example of the failure of the type of baseball that Ozzie is trying to change. Ozzie wants a team that can run, field, get on base, and hit with the situation -- as well as hit HR, not instead of. The running has improved. Bravo. Fielding? Not so much. Situational hitting? Yeah, right. This is no NL team.
Sure. But if you think that Ozzie had "no hand" in getting his buddy Grandpa Omar in the team, you're kidding yourself.

If you think that Ozzie had "no hand" in bringing one of his guys from his FLA days [Pierre] into the team, you're kidding yourself.

If you think that Ozzie had "no hand" in bringing back the "tremendous" Mark Kotsay, you're kidding yourself.


Ozzie is wrong about Alexei Ramirez being a good shortstop. That I will put on him. Otherwise the failure of this team is a failure of execution and talent evaluation, not a failure of Ozzie's strategy.
As SI said, there are MANY other examples of player evaluation failures, but ALSO of Ozzie's failure in strategery.

DHing Grandpa Omar? Making the #2 spot in the lineup for the 2nd baseman? Misusing the bullpen? Keeping Beckham @ #2 and Quentin @ #3 when it was CLEAR that a change was well overdue? There are a NUMBER of failures on the part of Ozzie's strategery.

WhiteSox5187
05-20-2010, 02:27 PM
Sure. But if you think that Ozzie had "no hand" in getting his buddy Grandpa Omar in the team, you're kidding yourself.

If you think that Ozzie had "no hand" in bringing one of his guys from his FLA days [Pierre] into the team, you're kidding yourself.

If you think that Ozzie had "no hand" in bringing back the "tremendous" Mark Kotsay, you're kidding yourself.



As SI said, there are MANY other examples of player evaluation failures, but ALSO of Ozzie's failure in strategery.

DHing Grandpa Omar? Making the #2 spot in the lineup for the 2nd baseman? Misusing the bullpen? Keeping Beckham @ #2 and Quentin @ #3 when it was CLEAR that a change was well overdue? There are a NUMBER of failures on the part of Ozzie's strategery.

Again, Omar was and is a bench player who was brought here for his defense and to help tutor Alexei at short. I think Alexei looks much better at short this year than he did last year. I don't get the hatred of Omar, he has done the job he was brought here to do.

As for Kotsay, again, a nice bat off the bench, but why Ozzie thought he could be a starting DH is beyond me.

One final thing, I'm sure Ozzie has his say in the make up of the lineup, but at ANY point Kenny could have over ruled him.

SI1020
05-20-2010, 02:34 PM
Again, Omar was and is a bench player who was brought here for his defense and to help tutor Alexei at short. I think Alexei looks much better at short this year than he did last year. I don't get the hatred of Omar, he has done the job he was brought here to do.
I don't hate Omar. If I had a vote it would be no problem for me to support him as soon as he becomes eligible for the HOF. He's just not what we need at this time as a reserve player. We need hits, and at this point in his career Omar is not going to give you too many of those.

WhiteSox5187
05-20-2010, 02:46 PM
I don't hate Omar. If I had a vote it would be no problem for me to support him as soon as he becomes eligible for the HOF. He's just not what we need at this time as a reserve player. We need hits, and at this point in his career Omar is not going to give you too many of those.

I think you could argue that while we need hits, we also need some solid defense off the bench. Omar can still give you that.

khan
05-20-2010, 02:48 PM
Again, Omar was and is a bench player who was brought here for his defense and to help tutor Alexei at short. I think Alexei looks much better at short this year than he did last year. I don't get the hatred of Omar, he has done the job he was brought here to do.
There's no hatred of Grandpa Omar from me. What I hate is the stupid idea that a geezing geezer like Grandpa Omar can do ANYTHING to help this team.

So it is said that Omar is here to "tutor Alexei." Exactly WHAT does Alexei do better now that Abuelo Omar is here? And WHAT evidence that this is worth $1.5M, AND a roster spot?

The offense has sucked, and Grandpa Omar's spot should rightly be taken by someone who has a prayer of hitting. It is, was, and ALWAYS will be a stupid idea to have an ancient player like Omar wasting a roster spot.

As for Kotsay, again, a nice bat off the bench, but why Ozzie thought he could be a starting DH is beyond me.
HUH? Have you looked at his recent history, excluding his ~130 AB in garbage time last season?

For his $1.5M, if they needed an actual GOOD Lefty bat, why not Thome? Look @ his splits v. RHP this year and last year! The last time I checked, his OPS v. RHP was above 1.000 this year! Kotsay has NO PRAYER of doing this, even in his dreams. For that matter, there are FEW in this roster that can reach a >.900 OPS v. RHP.

One final thing, I'm sure Ozzie has his say in the make up of the lineup, but at ANY point Kenny could have over ruled him.
And KW failed to do so.

khan
05-20-2010, 02:50 PM
I think you could argue that while we need hits, we also need some solid defense off the bench. Omar can still give you that.

The Great Glove/No Hit middle IF are available for a dime a dozen. DOZENS of ex-prospects that are/were slick-fielding, but couldn't hit can be had for a song.

So why waste $1.5M on a guy who can't hit, when many of the starting 9 and the ENTIRE BENCH sucks at hitting? To me, the deficiency in hitting on the bench was a bigger question than having a glove that one can find pretty much ANYWHERE in baseball.

Boondock Saint
05-20-2010, 02:55 PM
I think you could argue that while we need hits, we also need some solid defense off the bench. Omar can still give you that.

Yes, he can. Unfortunately, Ozzie is the first manager in Omar's 22 year career who thought it would be prudent to DH him.

WhiteSox5187
05-20-2010, 02:59 PM
There's no hatred of Grandpa Omar from me. What I hate is the stupid idea that a geezing geezer like Grandpa Omar can do ANYTHING to help this team.

So it is said that Omar is here to "tutor Alexei." Exactly WHAT does Alexei do better now that Abuelo Omar is here? And WHAT evidence that this is worth $1.5M, AND a roster spot?

The offense has sucked, and Grandpa Omar's spot should rightly be taken by someone who has a prayer of hitting. It is, was, and ALWAYS will be a stupid idea to have an ancient player like Omar wasting a roster spot.


HUH? Have you looked at his recent history, excluding his ~130 AB in garbage time last season?

For his $1.5M, if they needed an actual GOOD Lefty bat, why not Thome? Look @ his splits v. RHP this year and last year! The last time I checked, his OPS v. RHP was above 1.000 this year! Kotsay has NO PRAYER of doing this, even in his dreams. For that matter, there are FEW in this roster that can reach a >.900 OPS v. RHP.


And KW failed to do so.


Omar might be one of the best defenders on this team, he was brought in here for his defense so he could be a late inning defensive replacement and occasionally spell some guys and not hurt the team defensively like Nix did. As for evidence, one of the things Alexei is amazingly better at this year rather than last is positioning ESPECIALLY on double plays. Last year he used to be swung WAY over to the left and at times would barely beat the runner to second, this year he has been positioned much better and is much more up the middle. Another thing is with his throws, Paulie saved Alexei from a ton of bad throws, this year his throws have been much more consistent (even though last night he had a bad one). How much of this can be attributed to Omar is debatable, but just watching him he looks remarkably better. It's one of those things that won't show up on a stat sheet.

As for Kotsay, he is a career .341 hitter off the bench. Two years ago he hit .400 off the bench, Thome is a .223 hitter off the bench. Now, I would rather have Thome than Kotsay but if the plan was for Kotsay to be a bench player getting the occasional start it wasn't the worst idea in the world. If the plan was for him to get more than 300 ABs, it was a recipe for disaster.

khan
05-20-2010, 03:09 PM
Omar might be one of the best defenders on this team, he was brought in here for his defense so he could be a late inning defensive replacement and occasionally spell some guys and not hurt the team defensively like Nix did. As for evidence, one of the things Alexei is amazingly better at this year rather than last is positioning ESPECIALLY on double plays. Last year he used to be swung WAY over to the left and at times would barely beat the runner to second, this year he has been positioned much better and is much more up the middle. Another thing is with his throws, Paulie saved Alexei from a ton of bad throws, this year his throws have been much more consistent (even though last night he had a bad one). How much of this can be attributed to Omar is debatable, but just watching him he looks remarkably better. It's one of those things that won't show up on a stat sheet.
1. All of these things are opinions, not fact.
2. As you said, it is debatable as to what, if anything Abuelo Omar had to do with any of them.
3. Is this worth $1.5M, AND a major league roster spot, even in the HIGHLY UNLIKELY CASE that any of these opinions are true? On a team that hits like ****?
4. Ozzie's strategery includes using Grandpa Omar's admittedly-great fielding abilities as a DH.
5. Don't use Ozzie's stupid idea to put Nix in a position to fail @ 3rd Base as an excuse to give Grandpa Omar more credit than he is due.

As for Kotsay, he is a career .341 hitter off the bench. Two years ago he hit .400 off the bench, Thome is a .223 hitter off the bench. Now, I would rather have Thome than Kotsay but if the plan was for Kotsay to be a bench player getting the occasional start it wasn't the worst idea in the world. If the plan was for him to get more than 300 ABs, it was a recipe for disaster.
OK, now compare Thome's OPS this year v. RHP [BTW, much of it is "off the bench"] with that of Kotsay's this year. You'll let us know what you find, right?

Boondock Saint
05-20-2010, 03:16 PM
1. All of these things are opinions, not fact.
2. As you said, it is debatable as to what, if anything Abuelo Omar had to do with any of them.
3. Is this worth $1.5M, AND a major league roster spot, even in the HIGHLY UNLIKELY CASE that any of these opinions are true? On a team that hits like ****?
4. Ozzie's strategery includes using Grandpa Omar's admittedly-great fielding abilities as a DH.
5. Don't use Ozzie's stupid idea to put Nix in a position to fail @ 3rd Base as an excuse to give Grandpa Omar more credit than he is due.


OK, now compare Thome's OPS this year v. RHP [BTW, much of it is "off the bench"] with that of Kotsay's this year. You'll let us know what you find, right?

Did he kick your dog or something? Lay off him already. Christ.

white sox bill
05-20-2010, 03:34 PM
I remember when season started we said we were much better off this yr than last. How many long for the days of Wilson Bettemitt, Bartolo Colon, Brent Lillibridge,Dewayne Wise,Josh Fields etc.??

SI1020
05-20-2010, 03:58 PM
I remember when season started we said we were much better off this yr than last. How many long for the days of Wilson Bettemitt, Bartolo Colon, Brent Lillibridge,Dewayne Wise,Josh Fields etc.?? As for the first sentence some of us did and some of us didn't. As for the second different names, similar results.

A. Cavatica
05-20-2010, 08:41 PM
The only way a team collapses from head to toe like this one -- and like several recent editions of the White Sox -- is when they have a morale problem.

And why do they have a morale problem? Could it be that the field manager is an obnoxious loudmouth who can't evaluate talent, plays favorites and doesn't hold anyone accountable? Could it be that the coaches just aren't very good at coaching? Could it be that the players who should be leaders (Konerko and Pierzynski come to mind) are bad leaders? Could it be that players like Dye and Thome, respected veterans who wanted to play here, where shown the door so the likes of Vizquel and Kotsay could DH?

GoSox2K3
05-21-2010, 10:41 AM
The only way a team collapses from head to toe like this one -- and like several recent editions of the White Sox -- is when they have a morale problem.

And why do they have a morale problem? Could it be that the field manager is an obnoxious loudmouth who can't evaluate talent, plays favorites and doesn't hold anyone accountable? Could it be that the coaches just aren't very good at coaching? Could it be that the players who should be leaders (Konerko and Pierzynski come to mind) are bad leaders? Could it be that players like Dye and Thome, respected veterans who wanted to play here, where shown the door so the likes of Vizquel and Kotsay could DH?

Ouch. The worst part of this post for me (as a Sox fan) is that you are bringing up a lot of legitimate questions.

This team collapsed in July 2006 and has had 4 years of underperforming since.

In that time, we've had 3 dreadful seasons (2nd half '06, '07, '09, '10 to date) and one successful season ('08). Even that '08 division winner was a chronically underperforming team who blew a 6 1/2 game lead, never really clicked, and had to salvage the division on the 163rd game.

A lot of players from 2006-07 are gone, but the results are the same. Yes, it's the players....but players come and go and we have the same results? Something's wrong with the way this team is being managed and coached.

KW has made some good moves, but this is also the 5th straight season where we're being told that the likes of Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Mark Teahen, etc. are legitimate starters for us. The worst part this year was the tripe they were pushing off on us that DH can be filled in part by Kotsay and Vizquel. That was pretty much an insult to me as a life-long fan and a frequent paying customer.

This team better shake up the way it does things otherwise we're headed for another long stretch of mediocre seasons on the south side. It's really a shame because after 2005, the Sox had a golden opportunity for grab this city from the Flubs. But it looks like now that they've pissed away that chance. This feels a lot more like 1997 than anything 2005.

captain54
05-21-2010, 12:11 PM
This team collapsed in July 2006 and has had 4 years of underperforming since.

In that time, we've had 3 dreadful seasons (2nd half '06, '07, '09, '10 to date) and one successful season ('08). Even that '08 division winner was a chronically underperforming team who blew a 6 1/2 game lead, never really clicked, and had to salvage the division on the 163rd game.

A lot of players from 2006-07 are gone, but the results are the same. Yes, it's the players....but players come and go and we have the same results? Something's wrong with the way this team is being managed and coached.

KW has made some good moves, but this is also the 5th straight season where we're being told that the likes of Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Mark Teahen, etc. are legitimate starters for us. The worst part this year was the tripe they were pushing off on us that DH can be filled in part by Kotsay and Vizquel. That was pretty much an insult to me as a life-long fan and a frequent paying customer.

This team better shake up the way it does things otherwise we're headed for another long stretch of mediocre seasons on the south side. It's really a shame because after 2005, the Sox had a golden opportunity for grab this city from the Flubs. But it looks like now that they've pissed away that chance. This feels a lot more like 1997 than anything 2005.

wow...couldn't have said it better....of course, according to Ranger, we are just fans have no business questioning "a million dollar organization".

gosox41
05-22-2010, 10:50 PM
Why wait 50 games? This season is over. The Wild Card is not coming out of the central. Barring a COMPLETE Twins implosion, we will have to win 90+ games to win the division. To win 90 games, we have to go 74 and 50 down the stretch. Throw in the fact that the Tigers are playing pretty damn well and we REALLY have a problem here. That's 24 games over .500. Do you really think this team can keep that pace? In the American League?

So we are in essense shooting for 2nd place at best unless two division teams die down the stretch and no playoff berth. Do we really want that as our goal?


But Hawk said the 1983 team started 17-24 and they won 9 games so that must have a 100% significance to this team.


Bob

Marqhead
05-22-2010, 11:00 PM
But Hawk said the 1983 team started 17-24 and they won 9 games so that must have a 100% significance to this team.


Bob



Oh dear god!


:cower:

:tealpolice:

Nellie_Fox
05-23-2010, 12:57 AM
But Hawk said the 1983 team started 17-24 and they won 9 games so that must have a 100% significance to this team.
I've seen some bad attempts at teal, but this one is the worst.