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View Full Version : Look on the bright side..K Willliams and the organization EXPOSED!


captain54
05-16-2010, 09:05 PM
Ok, I'm sold. I've read quite a few very interesting posts the last couple of days on this very board suggesting what some of the reasons maybe that this year is turning into a nightmare

This is a total organizational flop, with KW being the ringleader. Sure, he has his hands tied with payroll and such, but I gotta believe other than than that he has free reign to do what he pleases.

What worked in 05 has not worked for going on 5 years. Maybe its a massive ego that believes that what he touches turns to gold, hard to say. Then go ahead and blame the players and tell them your "patience" had run out, when maybe they weren't that talented to begin with

So on the bright side, maybe this is the exposing of the soft underbelly we needed to see for changes to come. I will also note that every latter and early part of every decade since the 1960's sucked, before the dark clouds parted and fans got a taste of some quality baseball (72', 83', 93'. 00')

getonbckthr
05-16-2010, 09:11 PM
What's bright about our organization "being exposed"? Enlighten me please? At the beginning of the season did you see AJ, Beckham and Quentin hovering around .200? Did you see Floyd and Buerhle being completely uneffective? Did you see Rios and Jones resurrecting thier careers? Meaningless thread here.

captain54
05-16-2010, 09:16 PM
What's bright about our organization "being exposed"? Enlighten me please? At the beginning of the season did you see AJ, Beckham and Quentin hovering around .200? Did you see Floyd and Buerhle being completely uneffective? Did you see Rios and Jones resurrecting thier careers? Meaningless thread here.

I don't quite get what's so hard to understand about the thread. Maybe the players that constitute this ballclub are, when all is said and done, not that good to begin with. And it takes a disaster like this year to force things to be shaken up

getonbckthr
05-16-2010, 09:19 PM
I don't quite get what's so hard to understand about the thread. Maybe the players that constitute this ballclub are, when all is said and done, not that good to begin with. And it takes a disaster like this year to force things to be shaken up
What be shaken up? Ozzie and Kenny? Again I ask how can you blame them for AJ, Beckham and Quentin? Or blame them for Buerhle, Floyd and early on Peavy? Kenny, on paper, built a team that should be, at worst, fighting for a playoff spot.

stevied23
05-16-2010, 09:33 PM
While I think they have made some great moves, I question some others, but it's definitely a no win situation right now. It's really difficult to go in any different direction right now other than making changes in management. The few prospects that are in the system right now aren't tearing things up in the minors, so it's fair to assume they won't be any more effective than the players that are currently in the lineup every day. While Rios is playing great and Jones is producing above expectations, it's players like Kotsay, Teahan, and Vizquel that leave me scratching my head. I just don't know why you would even sign a 43 yo player that is not going to have any impact on the team. With that being said, they really have no option then to keep going with what they have since there are no suitable alternatives at this current time. It's definitely a situation of them retaining and signing old and/or undertalented players while the ones that are supposed to be performing at a high level just aren't. A recipe for disaster.

Daver
05-16-2010, 09:34 PM
What be shaken up? Ozzie and Kenny? Again I ask how can you blame them for AJ, Beckham and Quentin? Or blame them for Buerhle, Floyd and early on Peavy? Kenny, on paper, built a team that should be, at worst, fighting for a playoff spot.

He built a team with shaky defense, mediocre at best offense, and a pitching staff that was solid with a questionable bullpen, that is not exactly a recipe for success.

Frater Perdurabo
05-16-2010, 09:39 PM
He built a team with shaky defense, mediocre at best offense, and a pitching staff that was solid with a questionable bullpen, that is not exactly a recipe for success.

Daver, would Brent Morel and Donny Lucy shore up the shaky defense?

rainbow6
05-16-2010, 09:51 PM
I will go on record as saying that I hope the Williams/Guillen team stays for many years to come.

However, even I have to admit that for the first time in years I feared that the naysayers (before the season) were going to be right. This has been a bad offensive team for a awhile and the answer to that was Pierre/Jones/Kotsay/Vizquel.

I tried to be optimistic about the Teahan acquisition even though I read several reports/analysis that he was a below average defender and hitter.

I don't recall the last time I was so apprehensive watching a Sox third baseman try to field a ball - all the while knowing his offensive contributions will be nil. Ugh.

And meanwhile we are the one orginazation that will not hold any coaches accountable for the performance on the field. Didn't Ozzie use the word "years" when addressing how long this horrendous offensive approach bugged him? But Walker sleeps tight...

Is there an actual third baseman out there that would be available at the deadline? Teahan could move into the role he had the Royals and we could release Kotsay? And Vizquel?

I will keep watching and hoping but I think all the Williams/Guillen bashers are entitled to crow - no one picked this team to do well and most Sox fans furrowed their brows and wondered why we get no respect.

The sad results play themseleves out on the field. Every losing series after another.

russ99
05-16-2010, 10:02 PM
I will go on record as saying that I hope the Williams/Guillen team stays for many years to come.

However, even I have to admit that for the first time in years I feared that the naysayers (before the season) were going to be right. This has been a bad offensive team for a awhile and the answer to that was Pierre/Jones/Kotsay/Vizquel.

I tried to be optimistic about the Teahan acquisition even though I read several reports/analysis that he was a below average defender and hitter.

I don't recall the last time I was so apprehensive watching a Sox third baseman try to field a ball - all the while knowing his offensive contributions will be nil. Ugh.

And meanwhile we are the one orginazation that will not hold any coaches accountable for the performance on the field. Didn't Ozzie use the word "years" when addressing how long this horrendous offensive approach bugged him? But Walker sleeps tight...

Is there an actual third baseman out there that would be available at the deadline? Teahan could move into the role he had the Royals and we could release Kotsay? And Vizquel?

I will keep watching and hoping but I think all the Williams/Guillen bashers are entitled to crow - no one picked this team to do well and most Sox fans furrowed their brows and wondered why we get no respect.

The sad results play themseleves out on the field. Every losing series after another.

+1

We're in a really sucky situation. One one end, going with the bums we have, and on the other, trading everyone and rebuilding.

Neither of which are very appealing...

I'm really starting to wish the Sox trade anyone for a young exciting player who will be worth watching every day, cause right now, nobody's doing the trick, except for maybe Rios, and even then, he's not a max-effort guy.

DirtySox
05-16-2010, 10:03 PM
Daver, would Brent Morel and Donny Lucy shore up the shaky defense?

I'm not Daver, but they both would likely be defensive upgrades and offensive downgrades. You would also be tinkering with Brent's development as he is only played as high as AA. I think any defensive improvements would be negligible.

If Kenny trades off the soon to be free agents, I would support Flowers and Lucy called up though. (Assuming Castro goes too)

Brian26
05-16-2010, 10:11 PM
So on the bright side, maybe this is the exposing of the soft underbelly we needed to see for changes to come. I will also note that every latter and early part of every decade since the 1960's sucked, before the dark clouds parted and fans got a taste of some quality baseball (72', 83', 93'. 00')

The Sox are definitely embarking upon a crossroads in their history that we haven't seen in about 13 years.

Daver
05-16-2010, 10:32 PM
Daver, would Brent Morel and Donny Lucy shore up the shaky defense?

Perhaps, but it would be marginal at best, and in Morel's case it would be falling into the same habits that have bitten this team in the ass for years, rushing a prospect instead of allowing him to develop, look what it is doing for Gordon Beckham. Donny is not going to make an MLB roster as a starting catcher, for the same reason that AJ's defensive shortcomings are readily accepted because of his bat.

Frontman
05-16-2010, 10:41 PM
Yep, and starting this summer we can see how goofy the Sox are behind the scenes with the "reality" tv show on MLB network.

I swear to God; if this team starts playing good after that series is done shooting, I'm going to vomit.

Frater Perdurabo
05-16-2010, 10:42 PM
Perhaps, but it would be marginal at best, and in Morel's case it would be falling into the same habits that have bitten this team in the ass for years, rushing a prospect instead of allowing him to develop, look what it is doing for Gordon Beckham. Donny is not going to make an MLB roster as a starting catcher, for the same reason that AJ's defensive shortcomings are readily accepted because of his bat.

OK, what would YOU do about the Sox catching situation? I'm asking because I really want to know what you would do.

Daver
05-16-2010, 10:46 PM
OK, what would YOU do about the Sox catching situation? I'm asking because I really want to know what you would do.

AJ is still under contract.

Frater Perdurabo
05-16-2010, 10:51 PM
AJ is still under contract.

You're avoiding the question. :tongue:

Assume he gets traded. Then what do you do? How do you address the catching situation moving forward?

Daver
05-16-2010, 11:00 PM
You're avoiding the question. :tongue:

Assume he gets traded. Then what do you do? How do you address the catching situation moving forward?

You'd have to convince me that the value he brings back in a trade is greater than the value he has to the team, I have my doubts that he can. The White Sox have a very good starting rotation, that is comfortable working with AJ, what value do you put on that?

PhillipsBubba
05-16-2010, 11:29 PM
OK, what would YOU do about the Sox catching situation? I'm asking because I really want to know what you would do.

Bring up Flowers...let him learn and mature in the majors.

soxinem1
05-16-2010, 11:48 PM
No team will develop every position from within, it's impossible. But if you look at teams that did produce a lot from within, the Orioles, Dodgers, Tigers, and Royals, to name a few, they fell into the free agent trap and have never recovered. LA recently has accented more on developing from within, but the other three, once known for great farm systems, have fallen totally flat.

There is nothing wrong with KW's way, and yes, he's made some savvy moves. But eventually these things will even out. Do you think teams will keep trading with the Sox for the Kevin Beirne's, Matt Guerrier's, Alan Levine's and Larry Thomas's without noticing that they have not amounted to much more than fringe type guys?

Producing Hall of Famers is not necessary, but producing productive major leaguers is.

I personally take pride in home grown players, it breeds a long term formula of success. The D-backs may have won a WS rather quickly, but look at what they did. They kept making trades for and signing older players and became losers in no time.

I only wish we had better success developing our own guys. Changing over 8-10 players a year will not work forever, and if the Sox ever start stinking up the place again, many of you will be calling for KW's head for not doing so.

Get some guys who can spot talent like Larry Himes and the Sox will contend forever!!!!!!

This is a quote from a thread I started over four years ago, as the White Sox were set to defend their World Championship.

I felt that KW was more content in picking up retreads and castoffs, along with promising minor leaguers who were coming off serious injuries.

The purpose of bringing this up in this thread is not for me to pull an 'I told you so', but with the over-bearing opposition to what I wrote in the thread. I believed that the 2005 off-season and upcoming player drafts were the time to begin concentrating on player development again, as in quality. And it starts with the draft.

I have heard people on this forum offer many different excuses and reasons why White Sox amateur player drafts have sucked big time for well over a decade, other than a few players here and there.

Some have said that we have not had good draft position, some have said Reinsdorf will not spend money on the real blue-chip draft picks.

Do LAAA, NYY, BOS, MIN, STL, PHI and others complain that they cannot draft high enough when they had winning seasons? No, and they keep cranking out quality major league talent through home grown players that began their pro careers in that team's farm system, be they a #1 or #38 round pick.

I for one believe it is a combination of a lot of issues. I do believe Reinsdorf will not make an effort of spending money on touted draft picks, or heavy scouting internationally. Despite the payroll of the 2006-2010 White Sox, he has operated as a small/mid market team in a major media market. They won the World Series on the cheap, and had a lot of dominos fall properly in their direction. You cannot sustain that type of philosophy or team if you want o be a perrenial contender.

The Red Sox, Yankees, and Phillies may have bought many players for their teams, but they have produced All-Stars repeatedly from their farm systems all while winning post-season berths, pennants, and World Series trophies. Draft position does not mean everything because the top 60 players available to any team.

The difference has been this. Sure the Red Sox, Yankees and others have made mistakes $$$$-wise with high-draft picks and FA signings. All teams do. But instead of backing down like Reinsdorf when they bombed with Borchard, they aggressively pursued draft picks along with international and MLB free agents to keep their teams competitive.

And those teams have not been afraid to break their own players in the lineup, something we have not done consistently in over 10 seasons.

As Lip and a few others have noted repeatedly, if ownership was committed to winning a championship every year and did what it had to like the teams we love to bash here, we would be the annual contender that is in the running for playoff berths every season and have occasional off-years that still see the team win 86-88 games.

Tragg
05-17-2010, 12:01 AM
Ok, I'm sold. I've read quite a few very interesting posts the last couple of days on this very board suggesting what some of the reasons maybe that this year is turning into a nightmare

This is a total organizational flop, with KW being the ringleader. Sure, he has his hands tied with payroll and such, but I gotta believe other than than that he has free reign to do what he pleases.

The only problem with Williams is that over the years, he's given in more and more to Guillen's eccentricities. (clubhouse, veterans, talent evaluation, organizational philisophy)
If he would restrict Guillen to field manager, he'd be a much better general manager.
The only caveat is that the quality of Williams' trades has declined....but that may be a result of guillen's influence on personnel, etc.

Williams can be redeemed.

kittle42
05-17-2010, 12:04 AM
It's a **** organization from top to bottom right now, but this is what fandom is. I don't think I'm getting rid of my season tix anytime soon, but I despise this team and regime.

Mohoney
05-17-2010, 12:17 AM
You'd have to convince me that the value he brings back in a trade is greater than the value he has to the team, I have my doubts that he can. The White Sox have a very good starting rotation, that is comfortable working with AJ, what value do you put on that?

Let's say that we're 12 games behind the Twins on June 1st, very near the deadline where AJ gets 10 and 5 rights. Let's say that we deal AJ at that point.

Who would you rather have catch the rest of this season? Castro, Lucy, or Flowers?

Daver
05-17-2010, 12:42 AM
Let's say that we're 12 games behind the Twins on June 1st, very near the deadline where AJ gets 10 and 5 rights. Let's say that we deal AJ at that point.

Who would you rather have catch the rest of this season? Castro, Lucy, or Flowers?

Again, I don't think AJ brings back anything that makes dealing him worth more than his value to the team, 10 and 5 rights means nothing to a player in a contract year unless the team he is playing for intends to re-sign him.

Castro would get the job by default if AJ was dealt.

Dan H
05-17-2010, 04:35 AM
I agree with soxinem1. There is something wrong with the way the organization is run. The Reinsdorf regime has done some good things, but it has not been able to sustain sucess. Even with the successful period from 1990-94, the team won just one divison title and all we know what happened in 1994. Reinsdorf has won a World Series which is one more than all the other Sox and Cub owners since 1917. But when Veeck sold the team to Reinsdorf-Einhorn group almost 30 years ago, Sox fans hoped that the team would finally turn a corner and become an elite AL franchise. For the most part, that hasn't happened.

I hated the White Flag Trade, but there were a few times in the late '90's I saw a glimmer of hope. I don't see that hope right now. We can't give the organization a pass anymore. This team is in bad shape. Significant changes have to be made or the franchise will have squandered the enormous good will it garnished in 2005.

masloan
05-17-2010, 05:45 AM
You'd have to convince me that the value he brings back in a trade is greater than the value he has to the team, I have my doubts that he can. The White Sox have a very good starting rotation, that is comfortable working with AJ, what value do you put on that?

But how can you determine that the rotation would be more comfortable with AJ than with other players? I am not saying AJ does not have great value to the Sox, but I think this relationship might be a touch overrated.

NLaloosh
05-17-2010, 07:15 AM
Tough love is what this organization needs right now.

I know that it won't happen but it needs to be completely blown up and gutted from top to bottom - GM, coaches, players, scouts etc.

However, I'm sure that we'll end up with the same patchwork job next year- a few young players that aren't ready yet and a few more "on the cheap" free agents added to the aging core.

And, then we'll all be shocked that they fell short of expectations. And, there's no one in the minors that can help when they need it.

white sox bill
05-17-2010, 10:20 AM
JR and the Sox had a chance to gain some major fan base after the 2005 success. With some shrewd moves, KW could have the Cell sold out or nearly sold out each game had he made the right moves. But with the exception of 2008, he seems to have dropped the ball each time.

I realize JR treats this like a business. You might think his disdain of the Cubs might inspire him to allow KW to sign some quality players rather than saving a few bucks and signing one or two hit wonders to generous contracts.

As pointed out, gutting this team and rebuilding has plenty of drawbacks. Although rebuilding isn't the 5 yr process it once was, but attendance would be beyond dismal during that time.

Although I'm still an optimist, this team is between a rock and a hard place.

jabrch
05-17-2010, 10:32 AM
With some shrewd moves, KW could have the Cell sold out or nearly sold out each game had he made the right moves. But with the exception of 2008, he seems to have dropped the ball each time.

What shrewd moves are there that the fans seem to know better than management/ownership - just out of curiousity?

Harry Chappas
05-17-2010, 10:40 AM
Perhaps, but it would be marginal at best, and in Morel's case it would be falling into the same habits that have bitten this team in the ass for years, rushing a prospect instead of allowing him to develop, look what it is doing for Gordon Beckham. Donny is not going to make an MLB roster as a starting catcher, for the same reason that AJ's defensive shortcomings are readily accepted because of his bat.

Hey Daver, I'm trying to think of any prospects we rushed up to their detriment. They're usually exposed as being marginal players (Anderson), or they actually produce albeit for someone else (Sweeney and Young). But what other position players have we mishandled? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm really just trying to figure out who you mean.

Chris Young spent 5 seasons in our farm system before getting traded to Arizona. He was promptly moved up after a year and hasn't looked back. I wonder if he was going to get a chance with Chicago.

Law11
05-17-2010, 11:02 AM
Ive never been this dis-interested in a season. Im lucky if I watch a few innings a night. I just dont care about this club at all. I'll leave all the reasons as to why the team sucks to the experts on here. All I know is I havent been to a game yet and dont feel bad about it.

jdm2662
05-17-2010, 11:10 AM
I love threads like this. It's almost like people celebrate the team losing and rooting against the organization. Sorry, I don't care if you like the people running the organization or not. Being happy that they are losing to "expose" certain people is wrong. This is exactly why I stopped posting here and other places during Bears season last year. I wasn't even sure if I hated the team, the media, or the fan base more. But, that's for another day. I've vowed to keep silent for now.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. NO ONE should be happy the team is losing, and calling for changes is not wrong at all. I haven't cared for Ozzie and Kenny personally for years. I've been saying for years they are big mouthed/egotistical idiots. However, like where I work, I don't care if one comes across an *******, etc. I don't go to work to make friends. I go to work to work. They have not done a good job in the past few years, so I have no issues if they are released. That said, eventhough I don't care for them too much, I'm not rooting against the team because of it.

Lip Man 1
05-17-2010, 11:12 AM
Harry:

Chris Young to me is a bad example of anything. He had one solid year, the rest...bad, even was sent back to the minors for a stretch.

--------------------------------------------------------

As for the thread itself, some very solid points being made. There is simply no accountability in the here and now for anyone, players, coaches, manager, general manager.

All Sox fans appreciate 2005 but that was five long seasons ago. Fair or not, right or wrong, pro sports is "what have you done for me lately?"

The Sox have to go back to 2008 for anything positive and 2005 before anything positive AND productive was achieved.

Lip

russ99
05-17-2010, 11:26 AM
I love threads like this. It's almost like people celebrate the team losing and rooting against the organization. Sorry, I don't care if you like the people running the organization or not. Being happy that they are losing to "expose" certain people is wrong. This is exactly why I stopped posting here and other places during Bears season last year. I wasn't even sure if I hated the team, the media, or the fan base more. But, that's for another day. I've vowed to keep silent for now.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. NO ONE should be happy the team is losing, and calling for changes is not wrong at all. I haven't cared for Ozzie and Kenny personally for years. I've been saying for years they are big mouthed/egotistical idiots. However, like where I work, I don't care if one comes across an *******, etc. I don't go to work to make friends. I go to work to work. They have not done a good job in the past few years, so I have no issues if they are released. That said, eventhough I don't care for them too much, I'm not rooting against the team because of it.

I'm against firing them becaus of this - sure they've done a less than solid job the last year and a half, but they're miles above potential replacements, unless we get someone like LaRussa or Torre as manager or Epstein as GM. Guys like Dan Evans and Joey Cora would be a big step down.

With the resources they've been given to work with, I think both have done an OK job, but it's understandable that people are down on them because the results are lacking.

My beef is with people wanting Ozzie and Kenny fired not due to their performance, but because they don't like how one of their favorite players was treated.

I'm not happy what happened to Podsednik this offseason, but I'm not going to want them forced out or assume that there's an inherent lack of talent assessment in the organization because of how one player was treated.

Harry Chappas
05-17-2010, 11:36 AM
Harry:

Chris Young to me is a bad example of anything. He had one solid year, the rest...bad, even was sent back to the minors for a stretch.

--------------------------------------------------------

As for the thread itself, some very solid points being made. There is simply no accountability in the here and now for anyone, players, coaches, manager, general manager.

All Sox fans appreciate 2005 but that was five long seasons ago. Fair or not, right or wrong, pro sports is "what have you done for me lately?"

The Sox have to go back to 2008 for anything positive and 2005 before anything positive AND productive was achieved.

Lip

Good point. I don't follow the NL much, so I just assumed he was a pretty solid player. He's off to a good start, but he's been pretty average career-wise.

I guess we can throw out Borchard and Fields as players we mishandled but I'm not sure either of them are good examples. Fields played 3 years in the minors before being called up in 2007 when he hit 23 HR. I'm not sure about Borchard since I think he's out of baseball now.

captain54
05-17-2010, 11:55 AM
I love threads like this. It's almost like people celebrate the team losing and rooting against the organization. .

I don't know where in Gods name you get that people celebrate the team losing from this thread. I'm think if you are posting on this board, 10 out of 10 people are beyond disgust and extremely disappointed at this season so far.

However this organization has decided to proceed in putting together a winner is not working. I'm rooting against the methods and the approach of the organization, but not against the organization or the team. What do you suggest? Every post be "Hooray Ozzie, Kenny, JR!!" You guys are baseball gods! "Let's have another parade for being below mediocre so far this year!!"

The organization doesn't owe the fans anything. But as a fan, if you invest the time in following the team, invest your time and money in going to games and cheering on the product on the field, you would at least like to have that product be fun to watch and not filled with disappoint and angst at every turn. These guys (KW, Ozzie, JR) are paid very very well to do just that. So when it's not happening, you have to expect the fans to lash out.

Johnny Mostil
05-17-2010, 11:57 AM
The Sox have to go back to 2008 for anything positive and 2005 before anything positive AND productive was achieved.



That's a helluva standard. Do you consider anything short of a World Series championship to be "productive"?

I can't say the team this year or last has met my own standards, i.e., a level of play that would entice me to buy more tickets. But something short of a World Series championship would still get me to do so.

jdm2662
05-17-2010, 12:06 PM
I don't know where in Gods name you get that people celebrate the team losing from this thread. I'm think if you are posting on this board, 10 out of 10 people are beyond disgust and extremely disappointed at this season so far.

However this organization has decided to proceed in putting together a winner is not working. I'm rooting against the methods and the approach of the organization, but not against the organization or the team. What do you suggest? Every post be "Hooray Ozzie, Kenny, JR!!" You guys are baseball gods! "Let's have another parade for being below mediocre so far this year!!"

The organization doesn't owe the fans anything. But as a fan, if you invest the time in following the team, invest your time and money in going to games and cheering on the product on the field, you would at least like to have that product be fun to watch and not filled with disappoint and angst at every turn. These guys (KW, Ozzie, JR) are paid very very well to do just that. So when it's not happening, you have to expect the fans to lash out.

Read on. I said you should not be happy with the losing or the job the team is doing. There is nothing wrong with asking for changes or giving an opinion with concrete evidence/substance. Do you think I'm happy with the job the higher ups have done or I even like them?

However, you need to look at your thread title "Look on the bright side..K Willliams and the organization EXPOSED! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2498060#post2498060)" That sounds like someone who doesn't care for the higher ups and is happy about them looking bad. Maybe I'm off, but oh well. That's my opinion. Sorry, there is no positive in this situation, and I'm not exactly a fan of Kenny and Ozzie.

jdm2662
05-17-2010, 12:09 PM
That's a helluva standard. Do you consider anything short of a World Series championship to be "productive"?

I can't say the team this year or last has met my own standards, i.e., a level of play that would entice me to buy more tickets. But something short of a World Series championship would still get me to do so.

I don't agree with Lip on a lot of things, but he has posted here many times he expects at least a winning season (i.e. at least 82 wins) each year and at least making the playoffs more often than not. He was the first one to say repeating as World Series champs is extremely hard to do and almost impossible. And, there is nothing wrong with this. I also expect the Sox to at least contend and finish above .500 each year. That is not asking much, I don't think, espeically in the AL Central.

SI1020
05-17-2010, 12:50 PM
I don't agree with Lip on a lot of things, but he has posted here many times he expects at least a winning season (i.e. at least 82 wins) each year and at least making the playoffs more often than not. He was the first one to say repeating as World Series champs is extremely hard to do and almost impossible. And, there is nothing wrong with this. I also expect the Sox to at least contend and finish above .500 each year. That is not asking much, I don't think, espeically in the AL Central. I take you at your word, and I don't think most fans here or elsewhere would disagree with you. I think your anger is misplaced. As long as I have breath, I'll root for the Sox. Looking at this current train wreck of an organization is easy to see why so many of us are angry, frustrated and disgusted. It doesn't mean I want them to lose.

Lip Man 1
05-17-2010, 12:55 PM
Mostil:

My "bottom line" (my PERSONAL bottom line) or whether a season produces anything worth keeping, remembering etc is this..."did you win more games than you lost..."

Period.

I remember 2006 (although they absolutely tanked in the second half) and I remember 2008.

You can keep 2007, 2009 and what appears to be 2010, which would be the 3rd losing season in the past four years.

Yankee fans can dream about "back to back" World Series titles...I'm a White Sox fan for 51 seasons, I sure as hell know better than to think that.

Lip

captain54
05-17-2010, 01:08 PM
However, you need to look at your thread title "Look on the bright side..K Willliams and the organization EXPOSED! (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2498060#post2498060)" That sounds like someone who doesn't care for the higher ups and is happy about them looking bad.

the thread title means "Sox fans, we've endured some pretty frustrating moments since the season began, but if there is a silver lining through all of this, its that maybe we finally get to see WHY things have been maddeningly inconsistent the last few years."

jdm2662
05-17-2010, 01:22 PM
I take you at your word, and I don't think most fans here or elsewhere would disagree with you. I think your anger is misplaced. As long as I have breath, I'll root for the Sox. Looking at this current train wreck of an organization is easy to see why so many of us are angry, frustrated and disgusted. It doesn't mean I want them to lose.

Once again, there is nothing wrong with not being happy with the current team/situation. I'm sure as hell is not, and those who are season ticket holders especially should be upset. I have the option of simply going to less games than previous years. I went to 11 in both 2008 and 2009, and never less than five since 2004. However, with my current schedule, weeknight games are too much of a hassle, and with a new house to work on, weekends are tight as well. Hell, I now have two mortgages. I simply don't have much motiviation to go down there. Now, a season ticket holder doesn't have a choice. It's also hard to dump tickets when a team is losing like this. So, these people have especially a reason to be pissed off.

Being a non-holder, there isn't much to be happy about since the second half of 2006. However, my point is, people should not get any positives just because they don't like someone in the organization or how it's ran. I don't have any love personally for Kenny and Ozzie for reasons already given. JR seems like a decent person, but I don't always agree with his business practices. That doesn't mean I'm happy to see them fail.

soxinem1
05-17-2010, 02:08 PM
Mostil:

My "bottom line" (my PERSONAL bottom line) or whether a season produces anything worth keeping, remembering etc is this..."did you win more games than you lost..."

Period.

I remember 2006 (although they absolutely tanked in the second half) and I remember 2008.

You can keep 2007, 2009 and what appears to be 2010, which would be the 3rd losing season in the past four years.

Yankee fans can dream about "back to back" World Series titles...I'm a White Sox fan for 51 seasons, I sure as hell know better than to think that.

Lip

I have always agreed with your assessment about Reinsdorf not being committed to building a winner.

And sure, while he increased the budget since 2005, a nice ticket increase followed by the expected jump in tickets sold enabled him to do it.

But what bold steps has this organization taken after winning it all? Getting a displaced Thome and a lot of his salary from PHI? Adding Vazquez? Giving some raises to returning players? Then going with three unproven arms in the 2006 bullpen?

What about consistent go-for-the-throat FA signings? JR has NEVER done it and he never will.

And if he doesn't like getting into the FA wars, at least do something to put your farm system back in line like it was when we were at 'Point A' under Larry Himes and Al Goldis.

After winning the World Series, Reinsdorf, KW, and Ozzie should have sat down and charted the course of the organization. They should have put top dollar in scouting and drafting, as I stated four years ago. You know how many players would have loved to have been drafted by the reigning World Champions?

And again, NYY, LAAA, and BOS do not just go out and buy players, as many believe. They had worse draft position than us most of the last decade and still develop many of their players from within, not just trades and free agency.

We have developed next to nothing from the farm system for over a decade.

The teams that aggressively keeps all three wheels (Farm System, Trades, Free Agency) moving are the ones who stay consistent winners.

PennStater98r
05-17-2010, 02:30 PM
I have always agreed with your assessment about Reinsdorf not being committed to building a winner.

And sure, while he increased the budget since 2005, a nice ticket increase followed by the expected jump in tickets sold enabled him to do it.

But what bold steps has this organization taken after winning it all? Getting a displaced Thome and a lot of his salary from PHI? Adding Vazquez? Giving some raises to returning players? Then going with three unproven arms in the 2006 bullpen?

What about consistent go-for-the-throat FA signings? JR has NEVER done it and he never will.

And if he doesn't like getting into the FA wars, at least do something to put your farm system back in line like it was when we were at 'Point A' under Larry Himes and Al Goldis.

After winning the World Series, Reinsdorf, KW, and Ozzie should have sat down and charted the course of the organization. They should have put top dollar in scouting and drafting, as I stated four years ago. You know how many players would have loved to have been drafted by the reigning World Champions?

And again, NYY, LAAA, and BOS do not just go out and buy players, as many believe. They had worse draft position than us most of the last decade and still develop many of their players from within, not just trades and free agency.

We have developed next to nothing from the farm system for over a decade.

The teams that aggressively keeps all three wheels (Farm System, Trades, Free Agency) moving are the ones who stay consistent winners.

To a degree I was thinking about this - most specifically the bold print - prior to it being posted. When was the last time that we went for a free agent - I mean really, really went for a free agent? Albert Belle? The best trades that we've made in which we attempted to acquire top tier players have been... Garcia, Colon and Peavy. And Bacon is supposed to be our last proven talent to come up through the farm system - though with his struggles, I'd go back to Rowand. I look at other teams - and all of them have multiple good examples of talent that they've developed or acquired through all three of the above methods - unless you're a K.C. - in which you probably have simply drafted most of your talent.

I really believe that we need to put more resources in our farm system, scouts and spending on development at those levels. We also need to look at speed as the first and foremost attribute that our prospects have. Speed never slumps (though Pierre was making a good case of proving me wrong this season) and helps you on the basepaths as well as in the field. The era of drafting sluggers should be up in the air - because who knows what they're taking prior to being drafted to a major league roster. Who knows if they can adjust to high levels of pitching. Speed continues to be fast - imo. Finding the right guy and developing him appropriately allows for us to sign while he's locked under us - and we end up getting a discount (hopefully) - like with a Pujols or Mauer.

Last - make that big splash on the Free Agent market. Don't buy the best bargain that fits in your club. Buy the best guy on the market in key Free Agent classes - just my opinion.

Easier said than done, huh?

balke
05-17-2010, 02:44 PM
To a degree I was thinking about this - most specifically the bold print - prior to it being posted. When was the last time that we went for a free agent - I mean really, really went for a free agent?


Answer: Torii Hunter (Actually: Andruw Jones is the best answer - just wasn't considered "Big")

Better Answer: Jake Peavy/Alex Rios without getting outpriced by the Yankees/Bosox/Angels/Mets or whoever in a bidding war.

Johnny Mostil
05-17-2010, 03:31 PM
Mostil:

My "bottom line" (my PERSONAL bottom line) or whether a season produces anything worth keeping, remembering etc is this..."did you win more games than you lost..."

Period.

I remember 2006 (although they absolutely tanked in the second half) and I remember 2008.

You can keep 2007, 2009 and what appears to be 2010, which would be the 3rd losing season in the past four years.

Yankee fans can dream about "back to back" World Series titles...I'm a White Sox fan for 51 seasons, I sure as hell know better than to think that.

Lip

That's fair enough, especially for a large-market team in the ALC, but that isn't what your original comment said.

WhiteSox5187
05-17-2010, 03:44 PM
Answer: Torii Hunter (Actually: Andruw Jones is the best answer - just wasn't considered "Big")

Better Answer: Jake Peavy/Alex Rios without getting outpriced by the Yankees/Bosox/Angels/Mets or whoever in a bidding war.

But we didn't sign Hunter and Jones was essentially looking at the end of his career before he revived it here. We got Peavy largely because he was on the DL, if he was pitching and pitching lights out then a team like Philadelphia or the Yankees or some team in contention joins the mix and it becomes harder for us to get him. But the fact he was on the DL was a big part of the reason of why we got him. And as for Rios, we got him off of waivers. The Blue Jays literally gave him away.

kittle42
05-17-2010, 04:09 PM
But we didn't sign Hunter and Jones was essentially looking at the end of his career before he revived it here. We got Peavy largely because he was on the DL, if he was pitching and pitching lights out then a team like Philadelphia or the Yankees or some team in contention joins the mix and it becomes harder for us to get him. But the fact he was on the DL was a big part of the reason of why we got him. And as for Rios, we got him off of waivers. The Blue Jays literally gave him away.

Correct on all these. Excellent post.

asindc
05-17-2010, 04:18 PM
But we didn't sign Hunter and Jones was essentially looking at the end of his career before he revived it here. We got Peavy largely because he was on the DL, if he was pitching and pitching lights out then a team like Philadelphia or the Yankees or some team in contention joins the mix and it becomes harder for us to get him. But the fact he was on the DL was a big part of the reason of why we got him. And as for Rios, we got him off of waivers. The Blue Jays literally gave him away.

Correct on all these. Excellent post.

I've always sensed that some of the angst about every offseason (especially here at WSI) is that the Sox hardly ever go for (and land) a big FA. I understand it to a degree, but I've never been too critical of KW for it, as I see it as a budget (read: ownership) issue more than a GM issue. I think both Peavy and Rios qualify as big acquisitions, though not FA moves, of course. Can the Sox be more active and involved in the big-time FA market? I suspect so, but again I think that is more on JR than KW.

white sox bill
05-17-2010, 04:19 PM
What shrewd moves are there that the fans seem to know better than management/ownership - just out of curiousity?

OK replace shrewd with the terms "better judgement" or "better baseball assessments"

And no I don't have the answers either. Maybe better FA signings? But its not my job to know all this. All I am doing am armchair quarterbacking...

But I see your point, its a crapshoot. Like going to Caesars Palace with a wad of Ben's

pudge
05-17-2010, 04:26 PM
I love threads like this. It's almost like people celebrate the team losing and rooting against the organization. Sorry, I don't care if you like the people running the organization or not. Being happy that they are losing to "expose" certain people is wrong. This is exactly why I stopped posting here and other places during Bears season last year. I wasn't even sure if I hated the team, the media, or the fan base more. But, that's for another day. I've vowed to keep silent for now.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. NO ONE should be happy the team is losing, and calling for changes is not wrong at all. I haven't cared for Ozzie and Kenny personally for years. I've been saying for years they are big mouthed/egotistical idiots. However, like where I work, I don't care if one comes across an *******, etc. I don't go to work to make friends. I go to work to work. They have not done a good job in the past few years, so I have no issues if they are released. That said, eventhough I don't care for them too much, I'm not rooting against the team because of it.

I don't think anyone is actually rooting against the team, but I think there is a bright side to a team losing in times like this - because you brought up the Bears, I think they are the perfect example. Turner's act was just done. Done, done, done. (I'd argue Lovie's was too.) I have no idea if Martz will wind up being any better, but at the very least as a fan I have something to look forward to in seeing what he can do. So I was indeed seeing the bright side of the Bears' crappy season, even though I really did not want them to lose.

Same goes for this Sox team. I am just done with Ozzie - not sure how I feel about KW. He makes some amazing, gutsy deals, but he also makes a lot of head scratchers. I think some people are just hoping the bright side of this miserable season is change - even if the change doesn't work out, it is worth trying.

dickallen15
05-17-2010, 04:32 PM
Peavy and Rios were the Sox big money acquisitions. They didn't have any money going the other way when acquired. Its really the most realistic way the Sox are going to sign anyone who doesn't come with some sort of heavy baggage, and even those two had some baggage. When is the last time the Sox actually won a bidding war? They haven't spent more than $20 million on another teams' free agent since Albert Belle in December of 1996. We just have to live with it. Big name free agents in demand with other teams aren't going to be White Sox.

TheOldRoman
05-17-2010, 05:17 PM
I've always sensed that some of the angst about every offseason (especially here at WSI) is that the Sox hardly ever go for (and land) a big FA. I understand it to a degree, but I've never been too critical of KW for it, as I see it as a budget (read: ownership) issue more than a GM issue. I think both Peavy and Rios qualify as big acquisitions, though not FA moves, of course. Can the Sox be more active and involved in the big-time FA market? I suspect so, but again I think that is more on JR than KW.Not at all. It is a priority issue, and I think KW sets the priorities. The Sox payroll this season is over $100 million. KW could have signed a $15 million/yr outfielder within at some point over the last few years and still had the same payroll. Within reason, KW could do whatever he wants free agent wise as long as he comes in under the projected budget. He has spent the money in other areas, such as resigning our guys (Buehrle, Floyd, Contreras, Konerko) and trading for contracts (Vazquez, Peavy, Rios). There have been some ridiculous free agent contracts which backfired big time (Texas Rangers say "hi"), and KW feels they have a better sense of the outcome when they trade for someone in the middle of a big contract. Kenny has placed top free agents at a much lower priority. The Sox have gotten into the bidding a few times, but haven't landed anybody. I think it is KW's philisophy, and not ownership. I don't think they would have approved the Peavy trade but not approved it if instead he signed Lachey in the offseason.

Theoretically, KW could sign Cliff Lee, Carl Crawford, Jayson Werth and Adam Dunn next year and field the Charlotte Knights around them, trading anyone else who made money. The payroll would still be lower than it is now, but I don't think that team would have much of a chance of competing. You can argue that the money hasn't been spent wisely, but it has been spent.

jabrch
05-17-2010, 05:32 PM
OK replace shrewd with the terms "better judgement" or "better baseball assessments"

And no I don't have the answers either. Maybe better FA signings? But its not my job to know all this. All I am doing am armchair quarterbacking...

But I see your point, its a crapshoot. Like going to Caesars Palace with a wad of Ben's

I wouldn't go that far...but I don't believe the problem is management's lack of shrewdness. In fact, I think Williams is often fairly shrewd in his acquisitions. Nobody wanted Rios. KW plopped a ton of cash down on him while he was struggling. Peavy was a big move - giving up 4 prospects - and it did/didn't work. He was shrewd in getting Danks for Brandon M. Signing the worst player in all of baseball this offseason for virtually nothing was very shrewd... I can pick on problems - but not being shrewd isn't one of them.

I still look at the talent on this starting lineup and wonder how this team is underperforming expectations.

captain54
05-17-2010, 05:50 PM
. In fact, I think Williams is often fairly shrewd in his acquisitions. Nobody wanted Rios. KW plopped a ton of cash down on him while he was struggling. Peavy was a big move - giving up 4 prospects - and it did/didn't work. He was shrewd in getting Danks for Brandon M. Signing the worst player in all of baseball this offseason for virtually nothing was very shrewd... I can pick on problems - but not being shrewd isn't one of them..

I think what we've gotten used to seeing with KW is a guy rolling the dice and keeping his fingers and toes crossed that the piece of scrap you've picked up of the dung heap is gonna turn into a gem. Maybe that's your definition of 'shrewd" but it sure isn't mine

.
I still look at the talent on this starting lineup and wonder how this team is underperforming expectations.

Well let me help you out. Maybe they just weren't all that great to begin with. Maybe you just set your expectations too high

kobo
05-17-2010, 06:36 PM
Well let me help you out. Maybe they just weren't all that great to begin with. Maybe you just set your expectations too high
This is ridiculous, if certain guys were performing at their career averages right now this thread wouldn't exist. The question marks heading into this season were about Rios, Jones, Quentin, and to a lesser extent Beckham. Nobody expected the team to start the season off hitting the way they did. Most people thought the rotation would be one of the best in the AL. Yet, the only consistent starter has been Danks. Peavy has turned it around, Garcia has been fine as the 5th starter, but Floyd and Buehrle are just bad right now.

balke
05-17-2010, 07:01 PM
But we didn't sign Hunter and Jones was essentially looking at the end of his career before he revived it here. We got Peavy largely because he was on the DL, if he was pitching and pitching lights out then a team like Philadelphia or the Yankees or some team in contention joins the mix and it becomes harder for us to get him. But the fact he was on the DL was a big part of the reason of why we got him. And as for Rios, we got him off of waivers. The Blue Jays literally gave him away.


What does this have to do with anything? You people act like the Sox don't have any ballplayers. Jake Peavy - do you even know who that is? You're talking one of the best pitchers in baseball. Have you ever heard of the Cy Young award?

They didn't sign Hunter cause he was going to get about 18 million a season. And how much better does he make the Sox compared to Rios at 12 mil a season?

And what you think the Sox are going to just buy up Teixera for 20 + million dollars a year? There's not anywhere close to enough attendance to make that kind of acquisition. And I doubt one ballplayer is going to bring that many people to the southside.

Question the farm system and the Draft and the hirings all you want - but Kenny Williams gets talent. They are paying for talent - and find good cheap talent. That isn't the issue. That talent not performing is the issue.

If this team was competing at all - and they needed to add 1-2 players at the deadline they would do that. I'm personally glad they didn't spend much money this offseason - it obviously would've gone to waste at this point. Are the Sox one player away from 10 more wins? I don't think so.

jabrch
05-17-2010, 07:07 PM
This is ridiculous, if certain guys were performing at their career averages right now this thread wouldn't exist. The question marks heading into this season were about Rios, Jones, Quentin, and to a lesser extent Beckham. Nobody expected the team to start the season off hitting the way they did. Most people thought the rotation would be one of the best in the AL. Yet, the only consistent starter has been Danks. Peavy has turned it around, Garcia has been fine as the 5th starter, but Floyd and Buehrle are just bad right now.


Ding Ding Ding...

The piss and moaners can say they are right...if they projected Beckham and TCQ to suck, AJ to suck...Peavy to be bad for his first handful of starts...etc. etc. Since they didn't, they can claim all the credit they want for being right - but they have no legs to stand on. This team has disappointed for reasons I don't recall anyone predicting. Pierre sucked - but he's coming around. Jones and PK have been great. Teahen has been bad - but the gap to expectations is not nearly as big as with the projected stars.

If someone predicted they were going to suck, and gave no specific reasons, then I guess they were spot on - so far - but I don't recall that either.

TCQ, Beckham and AJ have been awful. If those guys are at their career averages, along with Floyd/MB/Peavy, this would be a totally different story and we wouldn't see 25,000 of the same stupid ass bull**** threads polluting the board.

Daver
05-17-2010, 07:08 PM
Hey Daver, I'm trying to think of any prospects we rushed up to their detriment. They're usually exposed as being marginal players (Anderson), or they actually produce albeit for someone else (Sweeney and Young). But what other position players have we mishandled? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm really just trying to figure out who you mean.


Without looking anything up, Mike Caruso had the tools to be a great SS, but was put on the ML roster far too early to justify the white flag trade, Ryan Sweeney played in three different levels in the minors in one season was called up to the ML roster the next season, the same was done with Brian Anderson. I fear Gordon Beckham may suffer a similar fate, very few players can go from college to an MLB roster in the span of a year or so, The speed of the pro game is far different from college, and the difference between the minors and majors is also completely different.

Don't even get me started on pitchers.

The last position player I can recall the Sox let develop was a third baseman, and that was only because there was no room for him on the MLB roster, he turned out to be a pretty good player and should have been a World Series MVP.

captain54
05-17-2010, 08:08 PM
Nobody expected the team to start the season off hitting the way they did..

I would speak for yourself, pal. The Sox were 13th or 14th in the AL in BA in 09', and made no real significant moves in the offseason to address that dilemna. There were plenty of fans that weren't feeling too optimistic about the Sox offensively in 10'

captain54
05-17-2010, 08:22 PM
TCQ, Beckham and AJ have been awful. If those guys are at their career averages, along with Floyd/MB/Peavy, this would be a totally different story and we wouldn't see 25,000 of the same stupid ass bull**** threads polluting the board.

the Sox were bad offensively in 09" Were you watching the games or following the Sox in 09" If so, how do you explain why the Sox were bad offensively in 09", even though the three you mentioned (TCQ, Beckham, and AJ) were hitting near average?

on top of a bad offensive team, they said goodbye to Dye and Thome..

going into 2010, the answer to the Sox offensive holes were Teahan, Jones, Vizquel, and the hope that Rios would come around. Not a very solid reason for fans to be optimistic, don't you think?

Bottom line, the reason there are some many negative "bull###" posts (as you put it) is that the fans are sick of watching a group of mediocre ballplayers paid big money and assembled by other highly paid executives who seem like they can't quite figure out how to assemble a consistently winning ballclub in a big market town

balke
05-17-2010, 09:09 PM
on top of a bad offensive team, they said goodbye to Dye and Thome..


Dye hit .179 with 7 Homeruns post all-star break in 09'. Andruw Jones has 9 hrs and is hitting .255. Is he the reason the Sox are bad?

Thome can't run... can't hit... and his HR total will be lower than Rios and Jones this year I'd bet. So why was losing either of those two players (especially for the money) a bad thing or a mistake?

captain54
05-17-2010, 09:31 PM
Dye hit .179 with 7 Homeruns post all-star break in 09'. Andruw Jones has 9 hrs and is hitting .255. Is he the reason the Sox are bad?

Thome can't run... can't hit... and his HR total will be lower than Rios and Jones this year I'd bet. So why was losing either of those two players (especially for the money) a bad thing or a mistake?

I wasn't saying that losing those players was bad or a mistake, just brought it up because it was another two holes that had to be filled, albeit shallow holes

Daver
05-17-2010, 09:44 PM
I wasn't saying that losing those players was bad or a mistake, just brought it up because it was another two holes that had to be filled, albeit shallow holes

You started this thread to bitch for the sake of doing nothing more than that, we all know that.

captain54
05-17-2010, 10:22 PM
You started this thread to bitch for the sake of doing nothing more than that, we all know that.


that's your opinion...if you want to see it that way, go for it.

in reality, I started the thread to try to give the majority who are disgusted another way to look at the current dilemna

gosox41
05-17-2010, 11:27 PM
You'd have to convince me that the value he brings back in a trade is greater than the value he has to the team, I have my doubts that he can. The White Sox have a very good starting rotation, that is comfortable working with AJ, what value do you put on that?


Well assuming the Sox can sign AJ after this year, and build a strong team around that starting pitching is ome thing.

But at this point it takes a leap of faith.

So for this year, I'd say as a value his value is limited if the Sox are incapable of winning the division in 2010. If the Sox continue at their current robust .405 winning percentage, we're talking 65 wins.

I'd bet this team doesn't finish in first place in 2010. So based on the holes of this organization, which you yourself have pointed out, I'd seriously consider weighing offers for AJ. Because there's no denying he has value as a catcher that pitchers like throwing too, I'm not so optimistic about 2011 being much better then 2010 unless this team starts making some tough decisions.


Bob

PhillipsBubba
05-17-2010, 11:35 PM
You started this thread to bitch for the sake of doing nothing more than that, we all know that.

...You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the inner mind to... The Outer Limits....

http://www.dvdjournal.com/reviewimgs/o/outerlimits_os_imgs/outerlimits_os_05.jpg

WhiteSox5187
05-17-2010, 11:51 PM
What does this have to do with anything? You people act like the Sox don't have any ballplayers. Jake Peavy - do you even know who that is? You're talking one of the best pitchers in baseball. Have you ever heard of the Cy Young award?

They didn't sign Hunter cause he was going to get about 18 million a season. And how much better does he make the Sox compared to Rios at 12 mil a season?

And what you think the Sox are going to just buy up Teixera for 20 + million dollars a year? There's not anywhere close to enough attendance to make that kind of acquisition. And I doubt one ballplayer is going to bring that many people to the southside.

Question the farm system and the Draft and the hirings all you want - but Kenny Williams gets talent. They are paying for talent - and find good cheap talent. That isn't the issue. That talent not performing is the issue.

If this team was competing at all - and they needed to add 1-2 players at the deadline they would do that. I'm personally glad they didn't spend much money this offseason - it obviously would've gone to waste at this point. Are the Sox one player away from 10 more wins? I don't think so.

No, enlighten me, who is Jake Peavy? :rolleyes:

My point was he was on the DL when we got him, no one else wanted him, it was a very big gamble and a move that was designed to help more in 2010 than in 2009. So far it looked like it has worked as Peavy has been good - but it could have backfired and it is still early yet.

The talent that Kenny gets is really guys with good careers who are on the downside of the careers or coming off injuries. He gambles, when he wins he wins big, when loses he loses big. When you look at the moves he made even for 2005, AJ was more or less kicked off of a SF team, Dye might not have played again, El Duque was past his prime, Pods was coming off his worst year, and no one had seen Iguchi play. Obviously everyone of those deals paid off in spades. In 2007 when he made the same gambles on the likes of Darrin Erstad, Ryan Bukvich, and Andrew Sisco it didn't work out so well.

kobo
05-18-2010, 12:45 AM
I would speak for yourself, pal. The Sox were 13th or 14th in the AL in BA in 09', and made no real significant moves in the offseason to address that dilemna. There were plenty of fans that weren't feeling too optimistic about the Sox offensively in 10'
Show me the posts where people speculated the majority of the lineup would start the season batting around .200. Nobody expected the hitting to be as bad as it was to start the season. The offense as a whole is a different story but I don't think anyone thought this team was going to rake offensively. Like I said, if everyone was hitting to their averages, just their career averages, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

captain54
05-18-2010, 01:15 AM
Nobody expected the hitting to be as bad as it was to start the season. The offense as a whole is a different story but I don't think anyone thought this team was going to rake offensively. .

yes, guys aren't hitting their averages. but that's baseball. some guys are prone to being inconsisent. Unfortunately, we seem to have a plethora of them on the Sox.

doublem23
05-18-2010, 01:33 AM
Ding Ding Ding...

The piss and moaners can say they are right...if they projected Beckham and TCQ to suck, AJ to suck...Peavy to be bad for his first handful of starts...etc. etc. Since they didn't, they can claim all the credit they want for being right - but they have no legs to stand on. This team has disappointed for reasons I don't recall anyone predicting. Pierre sucked - but he's coming around. Jones and PK have been great. Teahen has been bad - but the gap to expectations is not nearly as big as with the projected stars.

If someone predicted they were going to suck, and gave no specific reasons, then I guess they were spot on - so far - but I don't recall that either.

TCQ, Beckham and AJ have been awful. If those guys are at their career averages, along with Floyd/MB/Peavy, this would be a totally different story and we wouldn't see 25,000 of the same stupid ass bull**** threads polluting the board.

A) I don't know where you missed a lot of people fretting about TCQ or Bacon, both of whom were significant question marks going into this season. They're playing even poorer than probably anyone really expected, but no one in the "piss and moaners" camp really thought they were locks to be good everyday players.

B) You're missing the overall point. While it is true the Sox are struggling for a lot of reasons, some forseeable, others not, the overriding theme a lot of people had who weren't exactly thrilled with this team a few months ago was that the Sox built a team with exactly zero room for error. None whatsoever. Obviously, if TCQ was hitting like an MVP, AJ was playing like he was 26, and Beckham was building on his solid season last year, we'd be in much better shape, but the fact is this team was not built to handle even the slightest bit of adversity. That was a real concern a lot of people had, but it was just brushed off by the "everything is all right" groupthink because it was just pessimistic nonsense.

Well here we are.

Noneck
05-18-2010, 03:18 AM
Its amazing how someone is complaining "if" a player that doesn't even have 1 year in the majors would hit his "career" average. And another player who has had 1 good year out of 4 and would hit his "career" .248 average. This along with an aging catcher are the reasons why this team isn't clicking is quite naive.

It's Dankerific
05-18-2010, 03:22 AM
Just bad luck and nothing related to anyone or anything causing every member of the team to perform terribly and under their average.

See, theres this guy named father time.....

HebrewHammer
05-18-2010, 08:31 AM
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5vwdlGzEjs4/0.jpg

"And you don't want us exposing ourselves!"

I saw the thread title and this is the first thing I thought of. I really miss the days of "Kenny Williams Facts" threads and world championships.

Carry on with the dark cloud thread. :popcorn:

balke
05-18-2010, 09:30 AM
My point was he was on the DL when we got him, no one else wanted him, it was a very big gamble and a move that was designed to help more in 2010 than in 2009.

Hehe - noone wanted him? Noone could afford him. Teams who are getting pitchers via trade want to win in the playoffs. Because Peavy wasn't likely to join a team til at least August if at all last season - they looked elsewhere.

If Peavy didn't have his contract and would've came without giving up a nice prospect or 3 anyone else would've taken him.

My point is Kenny does go after people and bring big names in. He's just not dumb about it. If Peavy hits the open market - he's a Cub or Yankee. If the Sox are spending 18 million a year on Hunter right now - they'd probably have to trade Buehrle or Danks to free up salary.

asindc
05-18-2010, 10:05 AM
Hehe - noone wanted him? Noone could afford him. Teams who are getting pitchers via trade want to win in the playoffs. Because Peavy wasn't likely to join a team til at least August if at all last season - they looked elsewhere.

If Peavy didn't have his contract and would've came without giving up a nice prospect or 3 anyone else would've taken him.

My point is Kenny does go after people and bring big names in. He's just not dumb about it. If Peavy hits the open market - he's a Cub or Yankee. If the Sox are spending 18 million a year on Hunter right now - they'd probably have to trade Buehrle or Danks to free up salary.

Furthermore, if KW had signed Hunter to a ridiculous contract, or "won" the Fukodome sweepstakes, or somehow signed Sabathia instead of Peavy, we would still be having this conversation if all the other players on the team were still performing as badly as they are now. For those who think some of us are not hard enough on KW and Ozzie or have rose-colored glasses on that prevents us from seeing reality, I say that the terrible performance of this team so far this year is mainly attributable to the players not performing as well as they are capable, not the GM or Manager. But since you can't fire the players and they are by and large more likeable anyway, management is an easier target.

mcfish
05-18-2010, 11:35 AM
If the Sox are spending 18 million a year on Hunter right now - they'd probably have to trade Buehrle or Danks to free up salary.I don't want to get involved except for these slight corrections. First, the Sox reported offer to Hunter was $15 million a year. They probably weren't going much past that, no matter what the Angels did. Second, if the Sox had signed Hunter, they wouldn't have waiver claimed Rios - so all that money would be going to Hunter instead.

kobo
05-18-2010, 11:41 AM
Its amazing how someone is complaining "if" a player that doesn't even have 1 year in the majors would hit his "career" average. And another player who has had 1 good year out of 4 and would hit his "career" .248 average. This along with an aging catcher are the reasons why this team isn't clicking is quite naive.
I'm not naive to think those are the only reasons. I've watched enough games this year to know where the problems lie.

CLUBHOUSE KID
05-18-2010, 11:43 AM
But we didn't sign Hunter and Jones was essentially looking at the end of his career before he revived it here. We got Peavy largely because he was on the DL, if he was pitching and pitching lights out then a team like Philadelphia or the Yankees or some team in contention joins the mix and it becomes harder for us to get him. But the fact he was on the DL was a big part of the reason of why we got him. And as for Rios, we got him off of waivers. The Blue Jays literally gave him away.

Wow phenomenal post.

kobo
05-18-2010, 11:45 AM
B) You're missing the overall point. While it is true the Sox are struggling for a lot of reasons, some forseeable, others not, the overriding theme a lot of people had who weren't exactly thrilled with this team a few months ago was that the Sox built a team with exactly zero room for error. None whatsoever.
This is very true. Though I didn't think it would be this bad. But this is exactly what has happened and now what can the organization do? Sure, they can sell at the trade deadline, they could sell now and try to turn the season around on the fly, I have no idea what they can do at this point to save the season. And maybe the season's not worth saving.

CLUBHOUSE KID
05-18-2010, 11:45 AM
I don't want to get involved except for these slight corrections. First, the Sox reported offer to Hunter was $15 million a year. They probably weren't going much past that, no matter what the Angels did. Second, if the Sox had signed Hunter, they wouldn't have waiver claimed Rios - so all that money would be going to Hunter instead.

Truth.

WhiteSox5187
05-18-2010, 11:55 AM
Hehe - noone wanted him? Noone could afford him. Teams who are getting pitchers via trade want to win in the playoffs. Because Peavy wasn't likely to join a team til at least August if at all last season - they looked elsewhere.

If Peavy didn't have his contract and would've came without giving up a nice prospect or 3 anyone else would've taken him.

My point is Kenny does go after people and bring big names in. He's just not dumb about it. If Peavy hits the open market - he's a Cub or Yankee. If the Sox are spending 18 million a year on Hunter right now - they'd probably have to trade Buehrle or Danks to free up salary.

Not when he was on the DL! Anytime you trade for a guy who is on the DL it is a HUGE gamble because you have no clue what you're getting. The Sox gave up a lot for him, this is true, but if Peavy were dealing at the deadline and not on the DL you don't think a team like Philly would have come asking about him? And they gave up more to get Cliff Lee than we gave up for Peavy. We were able to get Peavy largely because he was on the DL. We might have been able to get him if he were healthy, but don't fool yourself into thinking that there wouldn't have been other teams interested. We put together a deal to get him in early May of last year when not many teams were looking to make moves and even Peavy turned it down probably because he was thinking "If I'm going to be traded there's a chance a better team might want me..." then he goes on the DL and no one wants him but the Sox who make a huge gamble to get him (with the knowledge he wasn't going to help them much for 2009 if they started to fade out of the race which is exactly what they did) and it has paid off, though this certainly does not appear to be a team that is destined for the playoffs.

balke
05-18-2010, 12:13 PM
Not when he was on the DL! Anytime you trade for a guy who is on the DL it is a HUGE gamble because you have no clue what you're getting. The Sox gave up a lot for him, this is true, but if Peavy were dealing at the deadline and not on the DL you don't think a team like Philly would have come asking about him? And they gave up more to get Cliff Lee than we gave up for Peavy. We were able to get Peavy largely because he was on the DL. We might have been able to get him if he were healthy, but don't fool yourself into thinking that there wouldn't have been other teams interested. We put together a deal to get him in early May of last year when not many teams were looking to make moves and even Peavy turned it down probably because he was thinking "If I'm going to be traded there's a chance a better team might want me..." then he goes on the DL and no one wants him but the Sox who make a huge gamble to get him (with the knowledge he wasn't going to help them much for 2009 if they started to fade out of the race which is exactly what they did) and it has paid off, though this certainly does not appear to be a team that is destined for the playoffs.

It wasn't a huge gamble. It was a tendon in his ankle - not a labrum/Elbow/Back/shoulder issue.

Regardless of how or why - the end result is top tier talent on the team. The accusation is that Kenny doesn't go after big free agents. And that's not the case - he gets big names in creative ways - and goes after free agents but does not overpay.

Free agent signings often times get you Manny Ramirez, Soriano, Zito, Andruw Jones of 2 years ago and so on.

The "Locks" of free agent signings often are so expensive they'd decimate the Sox payroll. I.E. Teixera/ARod and possibly Pujols if he hits the market.

balke
05-18-2010, 12:27 PM
I don't want to get involved except for these slight corrections. First, the Sox reported offer to Hunter was $15 million a year. They probably weren't going much past that, no matter what the Angels did. Second, if the Sox had signed Hunter, they wouldn't have waiver claimed Rios - so all that money would be going to Hunter instead.


First of all - Hunter GOT 18 million. So to GET Hunter They'd have to GIVE 18 mil +. Its not like he was offering a Chicago discount.

Secondly - That's 6 million per season MORE than what the Sox give Rios. Meaning 6 million that wouldn't be on this roster - as the Sox are at their limit. That means someone or multiple more players would be gone.

CLUBHOUSE KID
05-18-2010, 12:38 PM
What does this have to do with anything? You people act like the Sox don't have any ballplayers. Jake Peavy - do you even know who that is? You're talking one of the best pitchers in baseball. Have you ever heard of the Cy Young award?

They didn't sign Hunter cause he was going to get about 18 million a season. And how much better does he make the Sox compared to Rios at 12 mil a season?

And what you think the Sox are going to just buy up Teixera for 20 + million dollars a year? There's not anywhere close to enough attendance to make that kind of acquisition. And I doubt one ballplayer is going to bring that many people to the southside.

Question the farm system and the Draft and the hirings all you want - but Kenny Williams gets talent. They are paying for talent - and find good cheap talent. That isn't the issue. That talent not performing is the issue.

If this team was competing at all - and they needed to add 1-2 players at the deadline they would do that. I'm personally glad they didn't spend much money this offseason - it obviously would've gone to waste at this point. Are the Sox one player away from 10 more wins? I don't think so.

Yes. UNDERperforming is the worst part right now.

palehozenychicty
05-18-2010, 12:45 PM
A) I don't know where you missed a lot of people fretting about TCQ or Bacon, both of whom were significant question marks going into this season. They're playing even poorer than probably anyone really expected, but no one in the "piss and moaners" camp really thought they were locks to be good everyday players.

B) You're missing the overall point. While it is true the Sox are struggling for a lot of reasons, some forseeable, others not, the overriding theme a lot of people had who weren't exactly thrilled with this team a few months ago was that the Sox built a team with exactly zero room for error. None whatsoever. Obviously, if TCQ was hitting like an MVP, AJ was playing like he was 26, and Beckham was building on his solid season last year, we'd be in much better shape, but the fact is this team was not built to handle even the slightest bit of adversity. That was a real concern a lot of people had, but it was just brushed off by the "everything is all right" groupthink because it was just pessimistic nonsense.

Well here we are.


True indeed. As 5187 has mentioned, this is how KW has constructed his teams over time. They have flied to the top or crashed below sea level. Now with time, what he should have done is rebuild the scouting system with that extra revenue from the 2005 season. It's then easier to sustain those seasons when guys don't perform to expectations. A lot of our position players had real question marks going into this season due to age, brittleness, inexperience, and overall quality. We'll see what happens, but now the value of a good scouting system is being witnessed again.

kufram
05-18-2010, 12:47 PM
I wonder if other teams that don't make playoffs every other year have fans that scream for the owner's, the GM's, or the manager's blood?

mcfish
05-18-2010, 12:49 PM
First of all - Hunter GOT 18 million. So to GET Hunter They'd have to GIVE 18 mil +. Its not like he was offering a Chicago discount.

Secondly - That's 6 million per season MORE than what the Sox give Rios. Meaning 6 million that wouldn't be on this roster - as the Sox are at their limit. That means someone or multiple more players would be gone.Hunter wasn't going to GET 18 million from the Sox, so your implication that Hunter would cost 18 million if Kenny had been able to sign him is incorrect. Doing hypothetical math for the Sox payroll based on an $18 million per year Hunter isn't even hypothetically correct because the Sox wouldn't have paid him that.

Second - I agree that Hunter at 15 million per would have been more than Rios is - by 5.3 million this year and 3 million each year after that. When you didn't include any mention of Rios in the original post, it seemed to imply that they would have had to come up with all the money by dropping payroll elsewhere. In fact, they really (hypothetically) would just need to make up the difference which is not as drastic as the thought of being forced to trade Buehrle would make it seem.

mcfish
05-18-2010, 12:51 PM
I wonder if other teams that don't make playoffs every other year have fans that scream for the owner's, the GM's, or the manager's blood?
Yes, they do. Especially the ones in the top 7 in payroll.

pudge
05-18-2010, 12:56 PM
This is ridiculous, if certain guys were performing at their career averages right now this thread wouldn't exist. The question marks heading into this season were about Rios, Jones, Quentin, and to a lesser extent Beckham. Nobody expected the team to start the season off hitting the way they did. Most people thought the rotation would be one of the best in the AL. Yet, the only consistent starter has been Danks. Peavy has turned it around, Garcia has been fine as the 5th starter, but Floyd and Buehrle are just bad right now.

It's not at all ridiculous - Buehrle is a pitch-to-contact hitter who has always had stretches of getting shelled. Floyd in my mind has never proved what his ceiling really is. I will only admit to being surprised Peavy started so poorly - nothing else has surprised me. (If Danks had started poorly, I would have admittedly been surprised by that.) I didn't see the Beckham slump coming, but it would never surprise me to see a young player in a sophomore slump. We all said this team "has a chance" to be good, but many, many, many people were highly skeptical coming in. We put our season on a bunch of hopes and dreams instead of a solid, proven group.

The fact that the naysayers are now "ridiculous" because guys aren't "performing at their career averages" is just hilarious. Do you really think every player performs at their career average all the time?

SI1020
05-18-2010, 01:17 PM
It's not at all ridiculous - Buehrle is a pitch-to-contact hitter who has always had stretches of getting shelled. Floyd in my mind has never proved what his ceiling really is. I will only admit to being surprised Peavy started so poorly - nothing else has surprised me. (If Danks had started poorly, I would have admittedly been surprised by that.) I didn't see the Beckham slump coming, but it would never surprise me to see a young player in a sophomore slump. We all said this team "has a chance" to be good, but many, many, many people were highly skeptical coming in. We put our season on a bunch of hopes and dreams instead of a solid, proven group.

The fact that the naysayers are now "ridiculous" because guys aren't "performing at their career averages" is just hilarious. Do you really think every player performs at their career average all the time? With some folks here it seems there is no logical justification for ever criticizing the team or mangement in any way.

asindc
05-18-2010, 02:22 PM
With some folks here it seems there is no logical justification for ever criticizing the team or mangement in any way.

That's just it. It's not logical to say "I told you so" when before the season you say this team will not win because of A B C and D, and the team is not winning because of D X Y and Z. That does not lead to a valid criticism of management, IMO. You might say "what does it matter," but the distinction is valid because you are criticizing management for things that are, for the most part, either unforeseeable or unavoidable.

Teahen, yes. Vizquel, yes (though he does not play enough to impact the team that much). Kotsay, yes (though he is no worse than many bench players around the league, even those on contenders). Williams, yes.

Beckham, maybe (because of soph. slump, but what should have been done, differently, except build a better farm system to begin with?).

Quentin, no. Buehrle, no (even if you saw this coming, what was KW to do?). AJ, no. Peavy, no.

If you look at those players, those that many anticipated would be subpar play the least, except for Teahen. Most of the pre-season talk about subpar players was centered around Jones, Kotsay, and to a lesser extent Teahen, Williams, and Linebrink. Yes, any team has to anticipate even their better players not playing well and plan accordingly, but how do you plan for Quentin, Beckham, Alexei, AJ, Pierre and Teahen ALL hitting close to or less the .200 for all of April and, in some cases, well into May? What team has a contingency plan for that?

As I've noted numerous times elsewhere, KW should be blamed for the farm system not being able to adequately support the MLB roster, which is a major reason why we are in this current state. But to act as if anyone anticipated this kind of suckage and blame KW for not anticipating it as well is just disingenuous, IMO.

jabrch
05-18-2010, 02:39 PM
With some folks here it seems there is no logical justification for ever criticizing the team or mangement in any way.


Nobody (that I know of) has ever said this. This appears to be an exaggeration created in the minds of those who don't like their own negativity being challenged.

Critcize them for what they deserve to be criticized for. But I'm not critizing them for things that collectively couldn't be predicted. (Half the team hitting around .200, including guys with track records that indicate they wouldn't do that.

doublem23
05-18-2010, 02:48 PM
Nobody (that I know of) has ever said this. This appears to be an exaggeration created in the minds of those who don't like their own negativity being challenged.

Critcize them for what they deserve to be criticized for. But I'm not critizing them for things that collectively couldn't be predicted. (Half the team hitting around .200, including guys with track records that indicate they wouldn't do that.

And who exactly is that? The only guy with any sort of "track record" would be AJ, who has been a decent hitter his whole career, but it's not exactly EARTH-SHATTERING for a 33-year-old catcher who has averaged 134 G for the past 7 seasons to struggle so mightily.

Other than that, what guys, exactly are performing so abjectly below their supposed "track records?" Beckham? With all of 1 professional season under his belt entering this year, he's not the first guy to fall flat on his face and have a sophomore slump (which is what I hope it is, although the Sox recent track record of talent development is no endorsement of him, either). Quentin? A guy who's had 1 full, productive season in the 4 years he's been in the MLB entering this year? Pierre? A guy who's nice career stats are heavily padded by his early career but who has been absolutely unspectacular over the last 5 years (and is now in the AL for the first time). Teahen? Royals garbage who they paid us $1.5 M just to make him go away. Kotsay/Vizquel/Nix? A trio so bad I don't even have to comment.

You seem to be confusing "realistic track record" with "absolute highest possible ceiling of achievement." This Sox team could have been good, if all 9-10 everyday players played to the absolute peak of their abilities, but unfortunately, that's just not realistic baseball. Good teams have the ability, however, to weather some storms or plug in new pieces. Bad teams just have to sit back and hope things turn around for the best. Guess which one the Sox are?

SI1020
05-18-2010, 07:59 PM
Nobody (that I know of) has ever said this. This appears to be an exaggeration created in the minds of those who don't like their own negativity being challenged.
Negativity? What is that? Any view point that disagrees with yours?

jabrch
05-18-2010, 08:19 PM
Negativity? What is that? Any view point that disagrees with yours?

It has nothing to do with disagreeing with me.


Are you really telling me you don't understand what negativity is and can't comprehend it in some poster's continued postings?

You made up this horsecrap strawman that people are opposed to any criticism of the team - that's untrue...and you know it.

It's Dankerific
05-18-2010, 08:40 PM
I find it amusing that if you were worried about the sox offense in general, but didnt predict the exact batting average, slugging % and OBP of each position player, that you were somehow just "lucky" when predicting their offensive struggles.

Nellie_Fox
05-19-2010, 01:23 AM
Noone could afford him.I don't know; did he make all that much while fronting Herman's Hermits?
http://images.uulyrics.com/cover/h/hermans-hermits/album-very-best-of-hermans-hermits.jpg

pudge
05-19-2010, 03:08 AM
You made up this horsecrap strawman that people are opposed to any criticism of the team - that's untrue...and you know it.

I have to totally disagree with you, there are those who cannot stand to walk around with anything but rose colored glasses, and they blast anyone who doesn't. If you don't see that, then you've got a shade of pink on yourself.

It is not at all a strawman, it's been all over this forum for years, and it's demonstrated by people you meet and talk with in "real life" as well.

Now, are there more naysayers and critics than rose-colored glasses types? Probably. But that doesn't excuse them.

pudge
05-19-2010, 03:22 AM
That's just it. It's not logical to say "I told you so" when before the season you say this team will not win because of A B C and D, and the team is not winning because of D X Y and Z. That does not lead to a valid criticism of management.

Have you not heard the complaints about how Ozzie runs this team that have been going on for years? And when you consider he essentially constructed this team as he wanted, with Kotsay and Teahen being a big part of that, I think that gives an awful lot of fodder for the critics to come screaming from the rooftops. I'm usually a pretty middle of road type, but this season is absolutely ridiculous, and at what point does this management team take responsbility for churning out the same "small ball in the AL" mentality, crap offense, lack of a farm system, etc, etc, while the Twins kick our butt every single season? Do you not see a trend? Do you really think it's just, "Oh darn, we couldn't have forseen X, Y and Z, poor us!"

jabrch
05-19-2010, 08:27 AM
Have you not heard the complaints about how Ozzie runs this team that have been going on for years?

And we saw the results...a WS win, a 2nd playoff trip, and a 90 win season that fell short in the past 5 years. I'll take that. The existance of Guillen complaints doesn't relate to the majority of this team's problems this season. AJ, TCQ, Beckham, Pierre, TCM and Teahen have all been hitting in the high .100s or the low .200s. I fail to see how that's OGs fault. Those guys all project to do much better on the season. It just sucks that 2/3 of our lineup started slow together.

OG isn't a great in game manager. I think he is below average. I wouldn't shed a tear if he were gone. But he's not the problem this season in my eyes...

asindc
05-19-2010, 09:02 AM
Have you not heard the complaints about how Ozzie runs this team that have been going on for years? And when you consider he essentially constructed this team as he wanted, with Kotsay and Teahen being a big part of that, I think that gives an awful lot of fodder for the critics to come screaming from the rooftops. I'm usually a pretty middle of road type, but this season is absolutely ridiculous, and at what point does this management team take responsbility for churning out the same "small ball in the AL" mentality, crap offense, lack of a farm system, etc, etc, while the Twins kick our butt every single season? Do you not see a trend? Do you really think it's just, "Oh darn, we couldn't have forseen X, Y and Z, poor us!"

The subject of this thread (and a few others, for that matter) is focused on the current performance of the team, not the entire tenure of KW and Ozzie. I mention certain players because those players are most responsible for the subpar play of the team so far this season. If you have read my posts this past offseason and so far this season, you will see that I have been critical of management at times, and continue to be so. But it seems that you and a few others want to crticize management for everything that has gone wrong so far this season, including the woeful play of players no one thought would play this badly, all at the same time no less. It's as if you think if you don't criticize management for all of it, that means you are absolving them of what they actually do wrong. For the things they do actually do wrong, rant away. But don't expect me to join the chorus when you are blaming them for things others (players in this case, owner(s) in other cases) should be held responsible for.

By the way, no one has answered my question: What team actually has a contingency plan for six of their everyday players batting close to or under .200 for all of April and, in some cases, well into May?:waiting: I'm still waiting, but I probably should not expect an answer to that. If anyone says they saw that coming, I call complete bull****.

SI1020
05-19-2010, 09:48 AM
By the way, no one has answered my question: What team actually has a contingency plan for six of their everyday players batting close to or under .200 for all of April and, in some cases, well into May?:waiting: I'm still waiting, but I probably should not expect an answer to that. If anyone says they saw that coming, I call complete bull****. Of course no one could have predicted six starters hovering around the Mendoza line, and I don't think anyone claims that. However many predicted a weak offense and that's exactly what we're looking at. Konerko has cooled off after his torrid start and Jones threatens a repeat of last year when he started fast and then faded. Rios probably won't keep up his current pace either, although I expect him to remain solid. Some of the guys who are slumping badly will probably pick it up a little but in the end you still have a woefully lacking offense, which wasn't all that hard to predict.

PennStater98r
05-19-2010, 06:22 PM
Furthermore, if KW had signed Hunter to a ridiculous contract, or "won" the Fukodome sweepstakes, or somehow signed Sabathia instead of Peavy, we would still be having this conversation if all the other players on the team were still performing as badly as they are now. For those who think some of us are not hard enough on KW and Ozzie or have rose-colored glasses on that prevents us from seeing reality, I say that the terrible performance of this team so far this year is mainly attributable to the players not performing as well as they are capable, not the GM or Manager. But since you can't fire the players and they are by and large more likeable anyway, management is an easier target.

The discussion around my post on this thread has gotten to this point, and I felt that i had to interject. My question was intended to get you to think. "When was the last time we really went after a huge free agent?"

Torii Hunter does not count in my opinion. I don't care how much he makes or how well he played for one season on the Angels. He's not that guy. I think the last time that we really pursued a top name free agent was Albert Belle. That's the kind of guy I'd like to see the White Sox sign just once every ten years. Just once would be great. I know that with Peavy, we picked up his contract and that has the feeling of signing a free agent, but it's not the same - and the various posts about signing guys to get a deal or not signing them at all feels very authentic.

Maybe JR is saving up for LBJ - maybe he's heard from Kenny to wait until the '10, '11 or '12 off season. But just another time in my life, I'd like to see the Fisk or Belle signing. I'm not saying that Kenny hasn't made good moves. He's made some great moves. But he's had to make those creative moves in order to make up for an attrocious farm system and inability to attract the A-Rod, Mauer or Santana-type player (please note, I am not saying that he had a shot at or should have gone for any of those players - I am saying those are the type of players I'd like to see acquired once every so often - again every 10 years or so).

jabrch
05-19-2010, 06:28 PM
Maybe JR is saving up for LBJ

It is DEFINITELY NOT this one. First off, the two are separate entities. Second, the Bulls have no problem affording LBJ if he chooses to come here. They are already one of the most profitable teams, and will make tons more if he signs here.

LBJ coming to the Bulls and the Sox ability/willingness to spend are unrelated.

PennStater98r
05-19-2010, 06:32 PM
It is DEFINITELY NOT this one. First off, the two are separate entities. Second, the Bulls have no problem affording LBJ if he chooses to come here. They are already one of the most profitable teams, and will make tons more if he signs here.

LBJ coming to the Bulls and the Sox ability/willingness to spend are unrelated.

Once again - another reader that has to have teal in order to understand that we are not all 100% serious on some of our posts - adding content for humor, sarcasm or something other than literal meaning.

Nice job! :)

PennStater98r
05-19-2010, 06:33 PM
The discussion around my post on this thread has gotten to this point, and I felt that i had to interject. My question was intended to get you to think. "When was the last time we really went after a huge free agent?"

Torii Hunter does not count in my opinion. I don't care how much he makes or how well he played for one season on the Angels. He's not that guy. I think the last time that we really pursued a top name free agent was Albert Belle. That's the kind of guy I'd like to see the White Sox sign just once every ten years. Just once would be great. I know that with Peavy, we picked up his contract and that has the feeling of signing a free agent, but it's not the same - and the various posts about signing guys to get a deal or not signing them at all feels very authentic.

Maybe JR is saving up for LBJ - maybe he's heard from Kenny to wait until the '10, '11 or '12 off season. But just another time in my life, I'd like to see the Fisk or Belle signing. I'm not saying that Kenny hasn't made good moves. He's made some great moves. But he's had to make those creative moves in order to make up for an attrocious farm system and inability to attract the A-Rod, Mauer or Santana-type player (please note, I am not saying that he had a shot at or should have gone for any of those players - I am saying those are the type of players I'd like to see acquired once every so often - again every 10 years or so).

Fixed that for ya dummy. ;)

jabrch
05-19-2010, 06:43 PM
Once again - another reader that has to have teal in order to understand that we are not all 100% serious on some of our posts - adding content for humor, sarcasm or something other than literal meaning.

Nice job! :)

I had no way to tell that was funny...mostly because it wasn't....so if it was sarcasm, then the whole reason teal exists here is reinforced.

If it was humor or sarcasm, it was totally lost on me. My apologies for reading your post and taking it literally.

Slappy
05-19-2010, 06:56 PM
:darkcloud:

balke
05-19-2010, 07:15 PM
"When was the last time we really went after a huge free agent?"

Torii Hunter does not count in my opinion.

1) Your opinion just lost all credibility with that statement. Torii Hunter was at that time the best overall CFer in baseball (Defensively one of the best ever) and this is a team that had NO CFer and suffered dearly for several years for it.

2) Maybe you should ask "Why go for a free agent?". Kenny does his best work in trades. Manny Ramirez for 25 million per? Fukudome? No thanks. I'll take A young steroid-free Cy Young winner.

If Kenny gets a crack at Pujols I'm sure he'd go after Pujols - but likely will get outbid by the Yanks or Mets or Cubs or Angels - or most likely the Cards for a discount.

Even if Kenny matches money - top free agents get to pick their cities. Not a lot of players look forward to the cold Chicago weather.

SCCWS
05-19-2010, 08:08 PM
1)
Even if Kenny matches money - top free agents get to pick their cities. Not a lot of players look forward to the cold Chicago weather.

It is cold in Boston and FA's trip over themselves to go there.

jabrch
05-19-2010, 08:25 PM
It is cold in Boston and FA's trip over themselves to go there.

They trip over the big piles of money also.

asindc
05-19-2010, 08:36 PM
Even if Kenny matches money - top free agents get to pick their cities. Not a lot of players look forward to the cold Chicago weather.

I think a lot of Sox fans underestimate how much this is a factor for FAs, especially those from the islands, Latin America, the South, or California and Florida (otherwise known as hotbeds of baseball talent).

It is cold in Boston and FA's trip over themselves to go there.

They trip over the big piles of money also.

This. It is really the only way to overcome that disadvantage.

jabrch
05-19-2010, 08:41 PM
They trip over the big piles of money also.

And a team stacked with other top tier players - like 15+ of them - which make them favorites each year to win it all. With a 200mm payroll, I think we'd be there too.

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2010, 09:02 PM
And a team stacked with other top tier players - like 15+ of them - which make them favorites each year to win it all. With a 200mm payroll, I think we'd be there too.

Yes, but Boston also has proven that they can grown their own stars, too.

JB98
05-19-2010, 09:03 PM
The Sox shouldn't need a $200 million payroll to win the AL Central.

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2010, 09:15 PM
The Sox shouldn't need a $200 million payroll to win the AL Central.

Agreed. They should be able to spend what the Twins spend on their scouting and player development system - maybe a little more - and then spend just a little more than the Twins on the player payroll.

DirtySox
05-19-2010, 10:21 PM
Agreed. They should be able to spend what the Twins spend on their scouting and player development system - maybe a little more - and then spend just a little more than the Twins on the player payroll.

Yep.

One wonders the approach to the draft if this season keeps heading south. Do they finally realize the need to increase their bottom of the barrel draft spending? Or do they tighten the belt even further because of the inevitable loss in revenue?

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2010, 10:28 PM
Yep.

One wonders the approach to the draft if this season keeps heading south. Do they finally realize the need to increase their bottom of the barrel draft spending? Or do they tighten the belt even further because of the inevitable loss in revenue?

Their general refusal to pay over slot (and thus the tendency to draft guys who are "signable") is but one problem with the scouting and player development system. The larger problem is their organizational philosophy of promoting players too quickly, not teaching fundamentals or defense, and promoting players based only on their ability to hit for power.

DirtySox
05-19-2010, 10:43 PM
Their general refusal to pay over slot (and thus the tendency to draft guys who are "signable") is but one problem with the scouting and player development system. The larger problem is their organizational philosophy of promoting players too quickly, not teaching fundamentals or defense, and promoting players based only on their ability to hit for power.

No argument here. They also aren't active in international free agency. I'm not sure about promoting solely based on power hitting, but I do agree they promote too aggressively all too often. Problems abound.

Tragg
05-19-2010, 10:53 PM
Agreed. They should be able to spend what the Twins spend on their scouting and player development system - maybe a little more - and then spend just a little more than the Twins on the player payroll.
Our scouting is so bad we can't even evaluate the players in our own organization or those playing the field every day for say, oh, the Kansas City Royals.

Jerry Owens and Teahan....woo hooo!

If that's what they come up with with first-hand looks, how the heck are they supposed to evaluate college annd high school players decently.

jabrch
05-19-2010, 11:49 PM
Yes, but Boston also has proven that they can grown their own stars, too.

That's true....how much of that has to do with their ability to spend over slot every year to get multiple 1st round talents? In addition to 200mm on the MLB club, they pay a boatload more than their competition on the draft and on international FA.

Lip Man 1
05-20-2010, 12:09 AM
Jab:

So are you then saying that money talks and BS walks?

:D:

Lip

It's Dankerific
05-20-2010, 01:07 AM
That's true....how much of that has to do with their ability to spend over slot every year to get multiple 1st round talents? In addition to 200mm on the MLB club, they pay a boatload more than their competition on the draft and on international FA.

please define boatload. Its a serious question. I want to know the amount that keeps us in the ****ter.

DirtySox
05-20-2010, 01:10 AM
please define boatload. Its a serious question. I want to know the amount that keeps us in the ****ter.


http://www.mlbbonusbaby.com/2010/02/13/weekend-column-draft-spending/

It's Dankerific
05-20-2010, 01:16 AM
http://www.mlbbonusbaby.com/2010/02/13/weekend-column-draft-spending/

Thank you. Thats really ****ing sick.

$5 million dollars is not a lot of money to a MLB club. Yet that is considered a boatload?

Noneck
05-20-2010, 01:19 AM
http://www.mlbbonusbaby.com/2010/02/13/weekend-column-draft-spending/

It doesn't look like much of a dollar difference. The difference is that spending on the draft takes money out of the till for today. The Sox do the live for today and try to get an immediate return on their investment. Don't worry about being hungry tomorrow if your gut is filled today.

DirtySox
05-20-2010, 01:20 AM
Thank you. Thats really ****ing sick.

$5 million dollars is not a lot of money to a MLB club. Yet that is considered a boatload?

It really is mind boggling. An extra one or two million spent on the draft each year can provide substantial improvement to the farm system.

Noneck
05-20-2010, 01:22 AM
Thank you. Thats really ****ing sick.

$5 million dollars is not a lot of money to a MLB club. Yet that is considered a boatload?

The definition of boatload is being wrong and throwing out bs you dont think people will catch.

It's Dankerific
05-20-2010, 01:38 AM
It doesn't look like much of a dollar difference. The difference is that spending on the draft takes money out of the till for today. The Sox do the live for today and try to get an immediate return on their investment. Don't worry about being hungry tomorrow if your gut is filled today.

It really is mind boggling. An extra one or two million spent on the draft each year can provide substantial improvement to the farm system.

Yep, this team would really be in the crapper if we had spent that Omar Vizquel and Kotsay money on the draft.

DirtySox
05-20-2010, 01:43 AM
More on our crappy spending in the 2nd to last paragraph:

http://www.mlbbonusbaby.com/2010/02/17/2010-draft-preview-chicago-white-sox/

pudge
05-20-2010, 02:15 AM
The subject of this thread (and a few others, for that matter) is focused on the current performance of the team, not the entire tenure of KW and Ozzie. I mention certain players because those players are most responsible for the subpar play of the team so far this season. If you have read my posts this past offseason and so far this season, you will see that I have been critical of management at times, and continue to be so. But it seems that you and a few others want to crticize management for everything that has gone wrong so far this season, including the woeful play of players no one thought would play this badly, all at the same time no less. It's as if you think if you don't criticize management for all of it, that means you are absolving them of what they actually do wrong. For the things they do actually do wrong, rant away. But don't expect me to join the chorus when you are blaming them for things others (players in this case, owner(s) in other cases) should be held responsible for.

By the way, no one has answered my question: What team actually has a contingency plan for six of their everyday players batting close to or under .200 for all of April and, in some cases, well into May?:waiting: I'm still waiting, but I probably should not expect an answer to that. If anyone says they saw that coming, I call complete bull****.

I agree with your point totally. I will say one thing though, in the end, it's the management that is held responsible. When my team produces a crappy project at work, I get blamed. It shows up on my performance review. Doesn't matter how many times I told them to do it the right way, doesn't matter how much I've trained them or taught them. If I can't get them to produce, I'm not doing my job.

Ozzie is starting to feel like a manager who loses far more games than he wins. His players win games and lose games, but the manager can impact a small, key number of games per year, and Ozzie seems to piss on those moments more than anything. It's the old, "A manager can't win games, but he sure as heck can lose them."

asindc
05-20-2010, 09:45 AM
I agree with your point totally. I will say one thing though, in the end, it's the management that is held responsible. When my team produces a crappy project at work, I get blamed. It shows up on my performance review. Doesn't matter how many times I told them to do it the right way, doesn't matter how much I've trained them or taught them. If I can't get them to produce, I'm not doing my job.

Ozzie is starting to feel like a manager who loses far more games than he wins. His players win games and lose games, but the manager can impact a small, key number of games per year, and Ozzie seems to piss on those moments more than anything. It's the old, "A manager can't win games, but he sure as heck can lose them."

That's a fair assessment. I think consistent with your point is that while, from my point of view, this season of woe is falls mostly on the players, ownership, KW, and Ozzie are ultimately accountable for that. I agree that is as it should be. Just don't ask me to buy into the idea that KW should have known and prepared for Quentin, Beckham, AJ, Pierre, Teahen, and Alexei all batting near or below .200 for several weeks at the same time. No team has a contingency plan for that.

asindc
05-20-2010, 09:58 AM
please define boatload. Its a serious question. I want to know the amount that keeps us in the ****ter.

It's not just about investing in scouting, the draft, and player development. It is also the ability of some teams to spend to make up for expensive mistakes. The reason we don't have Torii Hunter in CF is because LAAAAA decided to give him $90 million over five years just one year after foolishly giving Gary Matthew, Jr. $50 million over five years, thereby making him one of the most expensive backup CFers in MLB history. Another example is Boston spending $51 million dollars just for the right to negotiate with a player. These examples also illustrate that some teams are willing to spend a lot on a risky move because they will just spend more money later to make up for it if it turns out badly.

This is not to say that our farm system is adequate, let alone ideal. It's not, and there is no reason for that. But if the question is why we don't spend like Boston or LAAAAAA or LAD or NYM or even the Cubs (I'm leaving NYY out of this since they are in their own category), the reality is that we do not generate the same revenue those other big market teams do. All the more reason why the Sox should invest more in scouting, drafting, and player development, as the Twinkees, Texas, Tampa, Detroit, and a few others do.

russ99
05-20-2010, 10:01 AM
It really is mind boggling. An extra one or two million spent on the draft each year can provide substantial improvement to the farm system.

The issue here isn't so much the money, it's that Jerry is one of those hardline owners wedded to Bud's concept of the "slot", and other philosophical differences in drafting.

Seems to me, the teams that draft well are willing to go over slot and draft the best player. The teams that don't draft well stick to the slot, won't draft players for other non-baseball reasons (like Boras), and pick players more along the lines of how much they may sign for (or if they will sign) than actual talent - i.e. the "safe pick".

This is why our farm system sucks, not because of a lack of funding in the scouting or player development system.