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NLaloosh
05-13-2010, 06:20 AM
Well, now that it's mid-May, I can see pretty clearly what's been killing the Sox this year and changed all attitudes and expectations about this franchise - it's the play of Gordon Beckham and Carlos Quentin.

Generally, everyone else on this team has performed in the vicinity of expectation. We can't forget that the Sox have had the good fortune of 5 players that have exceeded expectation thus far - Rios, Konerko, Jones, Garcia and Santos.

Ramirez, Pierre, Teahen and A.J. have all underperformed a bit on offense but 3 of the 4 have been picking it up some of late.

The pitching has not been as good as advertised but other than Peavy everyone else has pitched close to expectation.

What has absolutely destroyed this team from both a standpoint of wins/losses as well as morale has been the play of Beckham and Quentin.

These two were being counted on to lead the Sox offense- plain and simple. They were supossed to be the two most dangerous and productive hitters in the lineup. And, they have both been absolutely horrible - plain and simple.

If these two had both underperformed just somewhat this team could easily have 4 more wins. That turns a demoralizing 14-20 disaster into a hopeful 18-16 record.

If these two don't turn it around in a hurry I think we'll look back on this season and say that the Sox counting too heavily on Beckham and Quentin was the downfall of the 2010 season.

And, what might be even worse is that the Sox were also counting on these two players as the future of the franchise. Ouch!

LITTLE NELL
05-13-2010, 07:50 AM
Very good points, thats why I started a thread on TCQ last week.
What the answer is I don't know.
We can send Beckham back to the minors until he gets his stroke back and fill in with Nix.
With Quentin, I don't think we can fill his shoes unless we bring back Dye.

masloan
05-13-2010, 08:23 AM
This is exactly what I have been saying for a while. So many people here were whining about Pierre and Teahen when in reality Quentin and Beckham were/are the biggest disappointments.

asindc
05-13-2010, 08:47 AM
This is exactly what I have been saying for a while. So many people here were whining about Pierre and Teahen when in reality Quentin and Beckham were/are the biggest disappointments.

You lie! It is because we have guys like Nick Punto, Brendon Harris, and Alexi Casilla on our ros... oh wait, that's right, they don't play for us. Well, it's because we have guys like Randy Winn and Ramiro Pena on our ros... damn, wrong team again. Ok, it's because of guys like Bill Hall, Darnell McDonald, and Jeremy Hermida that we... wait, hold on a second. I've been told that only our GM acquires players of this caliber and expects to win. Just what the hell is going on around baseball anyway?

white sox bill
05-13-2010, 09:44 AM
I think most people gauge Q's expectations on 2008 performance. Its looking like 2008 was a career year. I don't have near the expectations I once did for him.

Bacon another subject....maybe pitchers now know how to pitch to him. If so, he must adjust accordingly or be put in the overpopulated list of potential Sox saviors that fizzled.

LITTLE NELL
05-13-2010, 09:54 AM
I think most people gauge Q's expectations on 2008 performance. Its looking like 2008 was a career year. I don't have near the expectations I once did for him.

Bacon another subject....maybe pitchers now know how to pitch to him. If so, he must adjust accordingly or be put in the overpopulated list of potential Sox saviors that fizzled.

I'm hoping that TCQ was not a 1 year flash in the pan
and that we don't have another BA in Beckham.

masloan
05-13-2010, 10:21 AM
I'm hoping that TQC was not a 1 year flash in the pan
and that we don't have another BA in Beckham.

No way Beckham is another BA....he had a great July '09!

UChicagoHP
05-13-2010, 10:41 AM
I believe Beckham has what it takes to make the adjustments, as he is going through what may be the first signigicant slump in his life. AA ball for a month may be good for him, it may not....but he deserves a few years to put it all together.

Carlos? All mental with him, no confidence = no hitting. I'm SURE a minor league stint will do him good(unless he is such a head-case that he can't even build up his confidence against crappy pitching)...time will tell for both.

If I had to guess? Beckham is an all-star by 2014, TCQ may be out of the league...head cases don't last very long...

Jim Shorts
05-13-2010, 11:02 AM
I thought it was Ozzie and Kenny's fault.

WhiteSox1989
05-13-2010, 11:09 AM
No way Beckham is another BA....he had a great July '09!
Sarcasm?

Beckham is not going to be like Brian Anderson.

masloan
05-13-2010, 11:14 AM
Sarcasm?

Beckham is not going to be like Brian Anderson.

Yes it was. I also do not think he will be like BA. I have pretty high hopes for Beckham. I just think he is not a sure thing. He has a lot of work to do. And he really has not performed all that well overall since he has been called up.

GoSox2K3
05-13-2010, 11:32 AM
I thought it was Ozzie and Kenny's fault.

:rolleyes: Nice insightful post.

Puh-lease. This line of logic makes no sense and is getting tiresome.

It is KW and perhaps OG who thought we could count on a player with less than one MLB season under his belt and an oft-injured player who puts too much pressure on himself to be key pieces to our offense. Apparently these guys were such sure things that we could get by with just using our bench to fill a key offensive position.

I was hoping for the best for Beckham and Quentin, but their current struggles shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone. But the Sox roster and farm system is so thin, we have no plan B.

....but I'm just wasting my breath. The Ozzie and Kenny defenders will never admit they are responsible for anything.

NLaloosh
05-13-2010, 11:35 AM
I, too, thought Beckham and Quentin would have good years.

I just think that maybe the White Sox management should have been a little wiser in not relying so heavily on a guy with 1/2 year in the bigs and another that has never had one full healthy season to carry such a heavy load of the offense.

Another solid proven hitter, especially from the left side, would've been a big help. But, I guess that was pretty well known to start the season.

Regardless of that, the Sox still need these two guys to turn it around. I don't know the answers but I hope they do soon.

My guess on Beckham is that he'll come around eventually if the Sox leave the pressure off him by batting him down in the order. I think Ozzie was too slow to do this and it hurt Beckham and the team but we'll see.

Q is a big Q to me??

Harry Chappas
05-13-2010, 11:35 AM
I think most people gauge Q's expectations on 2008 performance. Its looking like 2008 was a career year. I don't have near the expectations I once did for him.

Bacon another subject....maybe pitchers now know how to pitch to him. If so, he must adjust accordingly or be put in the overpopulated list of potential Sox saviors that fizzled.

I'm fine with '08 being the high-water mark for Quentin if his median numbers are closer to .275/30/90. I don't care if he never sniffs another MVP. But we're talking epic bad right now.

For the baseball historians, I'm curious who some of the players are that have gone from MVP consideration to below the Mendoza line. I'm sure there are a bunch, but I'm having trouble coming up with anyone who has had as precipitous drop as Quentin.

NLaloosh
05-13-2010, 11:39 AM
I think most people gauge Q's expectations on 2008 performance. Its looking like 2008 was a career year. I don't have near the expectations I once did for him.

Bacon another subject....maybe pitchers now know how to pitch to him. If so, he must adjust accordingly or be put in the overpopulated list of potential Sox saviors that fizzled.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting a 2008-like season from Q but even if he hit .260 with 30 dingers and a .360 OBP it would be a big improvement and help.

I'm still pretty confident that Beckham will be a star but maybe it will take another year or two. What then?

khan
05-13-2010, 11:47 AM
Very good points, thats why I started a thread on TCQ last week.
What the answer is I don't know.
We can send Beckham back to the minors until he gets his stroke back and fill in with Nix.
With Quentin, I don't think we can fill his shoes unless we bring back Dye.

I'm pretty sure that Gartrell or Danks or Kotsay can hit just as ****ty as Quentin has hit. I'm sure Walker can get those guys to [stupidly] swing for the fences @ Target in 38 degree weather, just like Quentin did.

The difference is that all three of the in-house replacements for Quentin are probably better defenders than he.

I've believed that BOTH Beckham AND Quentin should have been sent down for a few weeks now. Bring up WHOEVER, because they can't really do any worse than these two. At the same time, you have to hope and pray that Quentin and Beckham can figure it out while riding a bus down in Charlotte for a few weeks.

asindc
05-13-2010, 11:57 AM
:rolleyes: Nice insightful post.

Puh-lease. This line of logic makes no sense and is getting tiresome.

It is KW and perhaps OG who thought we could count on a player with less than one MLB season under his belt and an oft-injured player who puts too much pressure on himself to be key pieces to our offense. Apparently these guys were such sure things that we could get by with just using our bench to fill a key offensive position.

I was hoping for the best for Beckham and Quentin, but their current struggles shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone. But the Sox roster and farm system is so thin, we have no plan B.

....but I'm just wasting my breath. The Ozzie and Kenny defenders will never admit they are responsible for anything.

Let's see...


It is KW and perhaps OG who thought we could count on a player with less than one MLB season under his belt and an oft-injured player who puts too much pressure on himself to be key pieces to our offense because no one else thought they could be. Apparently some fans took that to mean that KW and perhaps OG thought these guys were such sure things that we could get by with just using our bench to fill a key offensive position, even though many fans here said before the season started that Jones would get the majority of starts at DH.

I was hoping for the best for Beckham and Quentin, but their current struggles shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone ("anyone" being the pessimistic among us). But the Sox farm system is so thin (which no one here would or has disputed), we have no plan B.

....but I'm just wasting my breath. The Ozzie and Kenny detractors will never admit that while others do see KW's and Ozzie's shortcomings, there are limits to what they can do (i.e., spend more money than given on payroll or swing the bat, catch the ball, or pitch for the players).

ode to veeck
05-13-2010, 11:58 AM
I'm hoping that TCQ was not a 1 year flash in the pan
and that we don't have another BA in Beckham.

other than a single game in seattle his rookie year, BA never in his lifetime and all reincarnations hit like Beckham did mid season last year from deep in the order

NLaloosh
05-13-2010, 12:22 PM
These guys better turn it up soon because Paulie isn't going hit 60 homers, Rios isn't going to bat .330 and Jones is likely to tail off some.

I think Kenny would have to pay a high price now to acquire a hitter. Too bad that Thome guy would've come at a good price and I think he swings from the left side, too.

LITTLE NELL
05-13-2010, 12:45 PM
other than a single game in seattle his rookie year, BA never in his lifetime and all reincarnations hit like Beckham did mid season last year from deep in the order

BA as in flop.

ode to veeck
05-13-2010, 12:59 PM
BA as in flop.


Although, I will note Ozzie made the same mistake with a much less capable BA, he kept trying him out in the 2 hole, a horrendous spot for a rookie

palehozenychicty
05-13-2010, 01:08 PM
:rolleyes: Nice insightful post.

Puh-lease. This line of logic makes no sense and is getting tiresome.

It is KW and perhaps OG who thought we could count on a player with less than one MLB season under his belt and an oft-injured player who puts too much pressure on himself to be key pieces to our offense. Apparently these guys were such sure things that we could get by with just using our bench to fill a key offensive position.

I was hoping for the best for Beckham and Quentin, but their current struggles shouldn't be a huge surprise to anyone. But the Sox roster and farm system is so thin, we have no plan B.

....but I'm just wasting my breath. The Ozzie and Kenny defenders will never admit they are responsible for anything.


This is why you need to build up a good farm system. It's like having bonds and mutual funds in your portfolio. You can make trades, let it generate dividends for your pocket, etc.

These guys have ability to be cornerstone players, but are not there yet. I'm not sure that Q can stay on his two feet long enough to reach that level. Beckham probably was rushed up, and is going through inevitable growing pains.

I see a weird starting lineup that has no identity right now. But it's a long season. Who knows?

russ99
05-13-2010, 01:54 PM
....but I'm just wasting my breath. The Ozzie and Kenny detractors will never admit that while others do see KW's and Ozzie's shortcomings, there are limits to what they can do (i.e., spend more money than given on payroll or swing the bat, catch the ball, or pitch for the players).

And the Ozzie & Kenny bashers find excuses to rip them, even when things happen that are beyond their control.

Can you honestly say you had any thought that these guys would be even as close to bad as they are now? I expected a drop-off with Gordon, but never like this...

And I'm tired of all the whining about the farm system. When was the last year we had a good one? 1976? Would you rather have a good farm system or would you rather have Rios and Peavy?

KMcMahon817
05-13-2010, 02:12 PM
You lie! It is because we have guys like Nick Punto, Brendon Harris, and Alexi Casilla on our ros... oh wait, that's right, they don't play for us. Well, it's because we have guys like Randy Winn and Ramiro Pena on our ros... damn, wrong team again. Ok, it's because of guys like Bill Hall, Darnell McDonald, and Jeremy Hermida that we... wait, hold on a second. I've been told that only our GM acquires players of this caliber and expects to win. Just what the hell is going on around baseball anyway?

+10000000

More people need to realize this around here. Every team can't have 25 starters.

WhiteSox1989
05-13-2010, 02:14 PM
And the Ozzie & Kenny bashers find excuses to rip them, even when things happen that are beyond their control.

Can you honestly say you had any thought that these guys would be even as close to bad as they are now? I expected a drop-off with Gordon, but never like this...

And I'm tired of all the whining about the farm system. When was the last year we had a good one? 1976? Would you rather have a good farm system or would you rather have Rios and Peavy?
:thumbsup:

soltrain21
05-13-2010, 02:54 PM
And the Ozzie & Kenny bashers find excuses to rip them, even when things happen that are beyond their control.

Can you honestly say you had any thought that these guys would be even as close to bad as they are now? I expected a drop-off with Gordon, but never like this...

And I'm tired of all the whining about the farm system. When was the last year we had a good one? 1976? Would you rather have a good farm system or would you rather have Rios and Peavy?

Nice rant, but Rios has nothing to do with our farm system.

NLaloosh
05-13-2010, 03:28 PM
Well, I'm not an OG or KW basher but the truth is that there is really nothing in the Sox farm system that can help right now on either side of the ball.

SI1020
05-13-2010, 03:35 PM
Would you rather have a good farm system or would you rather have Rios and Peavy? Definitely a good farm system. Over the long haul it will keep you in the hunt year in and year out. Not having one results in exactly what we are looking at now. A team thin on talent and not much to look forward to on the farm. I'd much rather have an organization that scouts, drafts and develops players better than its competition. In fact I'd be willing to suffer through an extended period of bad baseball if the Sox organization would get a personality transplant and decide to go that route.

KMcMahon817
05-13-2010, 03:46 PM
Definitely a good farm system. Over the long haul it will keep you in the hunt year in and year out. Not having one results in exactly what we are looking at now. A team thin on talent and not much to look forward to on the farm. I'd much rather have an organization that scouts, drafts and develops players better than its competition. In fact I'd be willing to suffer through an extended period of bad baseball if the Sox organization would get a personality transplant and decide to go that route.

You're going to be in the minority on this one. The White Sox would really be hurting if they went through a five year rebuilding process to change how they work. It's probably not worth it.

You can always improve the farm by improving scouting, but that doesn't mean you have to change the way you do business.

rainbow6
05-13-2010, 08:08 PM
You're going to be in the minority on this one. The White Sox would really be hurting if they went through a five year rebuilding process to change how they work. It's probably not worth it.


Hurting how? I think any bump in popularity following the WS has diminished. I imagine the Sox are in the bottom third of the league in attendance? I don't think mediocre baseball is going to do anything but make that number drop even further...

I think the Cubs have been trapped in this mindset for several years, although I can say I don't blame the management when jobs are on the line. It would take a GM/manager combo that are secure in their positions to make decisions that may sacrifice immediate need for long term gain.

Kenny/Ozzie may be the only pair in baseball with that much rope.

Nothing short of another championship will help this franchise establish itself as an elite one - if that takes 2 or 3 years of subpar ball I can deal with it.

SI1020
05-13-2010, 09:13 PM
You're going to be in the minority on this one. The White Sox would really be hurting if they went through a five year rebuilding process to change how they work. It's probably not worth it.

You can always improve the farm by improving scouting, but that doesn't mean you have to change the way you do business. I'm often in the minority on a variety of issues, so no big deal to me. I will say that I definitely think the Sox need to change the way they do business. They may end up having that rebuilding process whether they want to or not. The only thing to possibly save them is if our GM goes on a real hot streak with trades and acquisitions. It's been done before, Frank Lane in the 50's, Ed Short in the 60's and of course Roland Hemond. You could even add KW to that list, but I don't know if he has it in him to do it again.

magglio4eva30
05-13-2010, 09:30 PM
its MAY! we still have 4 solid months of baseball left!
how can you say that carlos and gordon are the downfall of the team..
they are having a slump..everyone has one..

MetroPD
05-14-2010, 12:07 AM
its MAY! we still have 4 solid months of baseball left!
how can you say that carlos and gordon are the downfall of the team..
they are having a slump..everyone has one..
well when the team as a whole is second to last in the league in batting, its pretty easy to pick out the two worst.

masloan
05-14-2010, 08:20 AM
its MAY! we still have 4 solid months of baseball left!
how can you say that carlos and gordon are the downfall of the team..
they are having a slump..everyone has one..

I really just do not understand this thinking. Quentin and Beckham were thought as the key offensive players by KW, Ozzie and the fans. Like I have said many times before, the Sox have some players that we had a good idea what we would get. Konerko, Pierre, AJ, Rios (although he is exceeding expectations), and Alexei. The major wild cards were Quentin and Beckham. Would Quentin be the 2008 Quentin, or the 2009 version? Would Beckham live up to the hype like he did in July of last year? I think it is safe to say that while the Sox have many issues regarding their hitting, Quentin and Beckham have been the most disappointing, and have hurt the time more than the other players.