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russ99
05-11-2010, 03:43 PM
For every single thing that doesn't go to plan, everyone points fingers and lays blame at Ozzie and Kenny.

I'm frustrated too, but I prefer to be disappointed in the players who aren't performing, than constantly railing against the manager who does what he can with the players he has and/or the GM who's hands were tied by budgetary constraints.

So, what really could they have done so differently this offseason that would have made such a difference in our record this season?

And when formulating your answer, keep in mind:

Podesdnik wasn't coming back due to his salary/term demands;
Thome's 39 years old and can only play DH;
Damon signed for $8M;
Dye lowered his demands but still wants $5M+;
Where's all this extra payroll coming from?

For reference, here's the opening day payroll. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t8-I4DzviBf0kdxr07SkZFQ&output=html)

khan
05-11-2010, 03:48 PM
KW/OG should have started the offseason by recognizing that Kotsay sucks, Vizquel is too old to be in a MLB roster, and that it was a BAD IDEA to trade anything to get backup players off KC [Teahen] and a NL team [Pierre], and that BACKUP PLAYERS on ****ty teams or NL teams are rarely good enough to start on good teams.

russ99
05-11-2010, 09:24 PM
KW/OG should have started the offseason by recognizing that Kotsay sucks, Vizquel is too old to be in a MLB roster, and that it was a BAD IDEA to trade anything to get backup players off KC [Teahen] and a NL team [Pierre], and that BACKUP PLAYERS on ****ty teams or NL teams are rarely good enough to start on good teams.

2009 numbers:

Teahen - .271, 12HR, 50 RBIs in 525 at-bats.
Pierre - .308, 57R, 30SB in 380 at-bats - on a NL playoff team.
Kotsay - .278, in 187 at-bats - the only backup player.

Vizquel is a bench player. Do we really have a better backup infielder? Or do you prefer Nix and Lillbridge again?

Again, these guys are way below their career numbers this year. And they all were acquired on the cheap with buyout cash coming in the Pierre/Teahen deals.

I'm much more irritated that Jerry wouldn't pay up the going rate for a quality bat to replace Thome or Dye than that the Sox traded for Pierre and Teahen, who are decent players but not ones that can carry a team.

It's Dankerific
05-11-2010, 09:28 PM
First thing I would have done was to sign a certain double threat to shore up the outfield defense and the bullpen.

Domeshot17
05-11-2010, 09:30 PM
We get it, Kenny and Ozzie can do no wrong, 2005, blah blah blah.

Mark Teahen is one of the worst offensive 3B in the league, which is okay, if he played good defense, but that sucks too. Just because he isn't Josh Fields bad doesn't make him good.

Pierre is not a very good ball player. A lead off hitter has to have a value above Stealing Bases, he doesn't.

This team was built the way Ozzie wants it, an NL team built to lose in the AL. And it is losing.

I think Kenny Williams should be fined any time he uses phrases like commitment to winning and championship players et. all. Since 2005, For all his talk, we have have had more losing seasons than playoff victories. The White Sox have a commitment to mediocrity, not winning.

gosox41
05-11-2010, 10:07 PM
For every single thing that doesn't go to plan, everyone points fingers and lays blame at Ozzie and Kenny.

I'm frustrated too, but I prefer to be disappointed in the players who aren't performing, than constantly railing against the manager who does what he can with the players he has and/or the GM who's hands were tied by budgetary constraints.

So, what really could they have done so differently this offseason that would have made such a difference in our record this season?

And when formulating your answer, keep in mind:

Podesdnik wasn't coming back due to his salary/term demands;
Thome's 39 years old and can only play DH;
Damon signed for $8M;
Dye lowered his demands but still wants $5M+;
Where's all this extra payroll coming from?

For reference, here's the opening day payroll. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t8-I4DzviBf0kdxr07SkZFQ&output=html)


I would have liked one more bat--Matsui or a Nick Johnson and not have gone after Vizquel.

I think when Pierre plays like he can, he is a slightly above average lead off hitter.

But the blame lies squarely on the players after these first 32 games. A lot of them have performed way below career norms.

Now if the extended bad slumps become a trend then I will start laying more blame on KW and Ozzie.

There's no reason this team couldn't have competed with Minnesota for the division. The power numbers are there for the people who think the Sox sacrificed power for Ozzie ball. There's a lot more speed to steal or take the extra base on hits to the outfield. On paper the starters should be much better (paging Gavin Floyd, who tends to start slow every year.) The bullpen has the potential to be stellar, but Bobby's lack of conditioning is catching up to him.



Bob

Brian26
05-11-2010, 10:33 PM
Threads like these are a waste of time because, as fans, we can only speculate on what was truly available on the free agent market and really have no idea what was available on the trade market. None of us were part of any negotiations, so we can't determine what could have been done differently. Perhaps Matsui didn't want to come here.

asindc
05-11-2010, 10:41 PM
Threads like these are a waste of time because, as fans, we can only speculate on what was truly available on the free agent market and really have no idea what was available on the trade market. None of us were part of any negotiations, so we can't determine what could have been done differently. Perhaps Matsui didn't want to come here.

It's not speculation when you know that KW did not try to sign Matsui, Damon, or any other FA hitter, and you know that Ozzie would not have started them anyway.*




*If you think this post needs teal, I don't know what to tell you.

Domeshot17
05-11-2010, 10:46 PM
Threads like these are a waste of time because, as fans, we can only speculate on what was truly available on the free agent market and really have no idea what was available on the trade market. None of us were part of any negotiations, so we can't determine what could have been done differently. Perhaps Matsui didn't want to come here.

Kenny is in a results driven Business. His job is to either sign the best guys or trade for them and to win games. "I did my best" is not a valid excuse for Kenny, ever. If it was no GM would ever be fired. They all TRY and sign the best players, draft the best prospects, and make the best trades

This is true for any job. My job is to schedule and fill cohort masters programs for teachers. If I don't fill a program and it gets canceled, the University I am employed by won't cut me slack because "The students just did not want to attend this course".

asindc
05-11-2010, 11:14 PM
Kenny is in a results driven Business. His job is to either sign the best guys or trade for them and to win games. "I did my best" is not a valid excuse for Kenny, ever. If it was no GM would ever be fired. They all TRY and sign the best players, draft the best prospects, and make the best trades

This is true for any job. My job is to schedule and fill cohort masters programs for teachers. If I don't fill a program and it gets canceled, the University I am employed by won't cut me slack because "The students just did not want to attend this course".

Everything you say in this post also applies to Quentin, Beckham, Ramirez, AJ, Buehrle, Floyd, and Jenks. But I suppose it is easier to just be frustrated at the GM and Manager and ask if they have any ideas to make those players play better.

Domeshot17
05-11-2010, 11:17 PM
Everything you say in this post also applies to Quentin, Beckham, Ramirez, AJ, Buehrle, Floyd, and Jenks. But I suppose it is easier to just be frustrated at the GM and Manager and ask if they have any ideas to make those players play better.

I have said since January Ozzie and Kenny are fools because they don't have 1 player on this team who can carry the team offensively through a slump. They needed to get a powerful bat at a power position. Take pressure off Beckham. I also said you can't rely on Quentin to be your best player as he hasn't proven he can stay healthy or produce for a full season, ever, not one season, in his career.

The chose to build a team that had to have EVERYTHING go right, EVERY PLAYER play to their level or higher, and the pitching couldn't fail, in order to win.

asindc
05-11-2010, 11:23 PM
I have said since January Ozzie and Kenny are fools because they don't have 1 player on this team who can carry the team offensively through a slump. They needed to get a powerful bat at a power position. Take pressure off Beckham. I also said you can't rely on Quentin to be your best player as he hasn't proven he can stay healthy or produce for a full season, ever, not one season, in his career.

The chose to build a team that had to have EVERYTHING go right, EVERY PLAYER play to their level or higher, and the pitching couldn't fail, in order to win.

The type of player you are describing was not available in the FA market this past offseason, and, as I'm sure you know, a trade for such a player would have crippled the roster anyway. Of course, 2008 Quentin can do that, but you are right in that we can't take that kind of production as a given from him... yet. Believe me, I understand the frustration, but until someone convinces me that KW had more to spend and just simply chose not to spend it, I'm not going to assume such.

It's Dankerific
05-12-2010, 12:00 AM
Since I dont think the additions of people like Vizquel help any, I would have much prefered to use a major league minimum player and plowed the extra savings into our drafting, scouting and minor league systems. That way, even if this season was a miss, we'd be preparing for the future.

Now, we have a ****ty season AND no money to help the future.

Lip Man 1
05-12-2010, 12:10 AM
Brian:

For what it may be worth, Matsui told the New York and Chicago newspapers the White Sox were his second choice behind the Yankees.

Shortly afterwards he signed with the Angels.

I don't know if he was lying through his teeth or if he was told the Sox had no interest.

Lip

Rohan
05-12-2010, 12:34 AM
First thing I would have done was to sign a certain double threat to shore up the outfield defense and the bullpen.

:rolling:

Tragg
05-12-2010, 12:35 AM
I don't want them fired....I want Guillen to be kept away from talent evaluation and personnel decisions.

Dub25
05-12-2010, 12:40 AM
For every single thing that doesn't go to plan, everyone points fingers and lays blame at Ozzie and Kenny.

I'm frustrated too, but I prefer to be disappointed in the players who aren't performing, than constantly railing against the manager who does what he can with the players he has and/or the GM who's hands were tied by budgetary constraints.

So, what really could they have done so differently this offseason that would have made such a difference in our record this season?

And when formulating your answer, keep in mind:

Podesdnik wasn't coming back due to his salary/term demands;
Thome's 39 years old and can only play DH;
Damon signed for $8M;
Dye lowered his demands but still wants $5M+;
Where's all this extra payroll coming from?

For reference, here's the opening day payroll. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t8-I4DzviBf0kdxr07SkZFQ&output=html)

Not here. I point it at Kenny. Even though he tried to throw Oz under the bus about Thome, hes responsible for picking up Pierre, Teahan (another KC reject), and Putz.

Nellie_Fox
05-12-2010, 12:59 AM
First thing I would have done was to sign a certain double threat to shore up the outfield defense and the bullpen.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

VMSNS
05-12-2010, 02:11 AM
Brian:

For what it may be worth, Matsui told the New York and Chicago newspapers the White Sox were his second choice behind the Yankees.

Shortly afterwards he signed with the Angels.

I don't know if he was lying through his teeth or if he was told the Sox had no interest.

Lip

Reminds me of 2009 when Abreu ended up signing with the Angels for less than the amount the Sox offered him.

Oh, and I thought Matsui said that he didn't want to play in Chicago because of the weather, and that he preferred a West coast team?

GoSox2K3
05-12-2010, 10:53 AM
For every single thing that doesn't go to plan, everyone points fingers and lays blame at Ozzie and Kenny.

Um, this is their team. They get paid to be responsible for it's outcome. You can't have 4 straight years of underperforming even though there has been significant roster turnover and say that KW and OG are blameless.



Podesdnik wasn't coming back due to his salary/term demands; If I'm not mistaken, Pods is getting paid less than Pierre right now.
Thome's 39 years old and can only play DH; So? Last I heard, the AL allows the Sox to have a DH in their lineup. He was begging to come back here for dirt cheap and Ozzie (yes, Ozzie) said no. It would be nice to have him right now as an alternative to let the Sox rest an imploding Quentin.

Damon signed for $8M;
Dye lowered his demands but still wants $5M+;
Where's all this extra payroll coming from?

The problem is that KW's farm system has been a failure. When you are getting almost nothing from your farm system, we won't have enough $$$ to fill all of our holes from the outside. This really is the main reason why Minnesota and Detroit are ahead of us now.
For reference, here's the opening day payroll. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t8-I4DzviBf0kdxr07SkZFQ&output=html)

Lip Man 1
05-12-2010, 12:00 PM
VMS:

I'm only repeating what was attributed to him in the newspapers.

Lip

doublem23
05-12-2010, 12:05 PM
For every single thing that doesn't go to plan, everyone points fingers and lays blame at Ozzie and Kenny.

Everytime things go right, they're praised and called a genius, too.

What's furthermore disappointing about this team is that quite a few of us were not thrilled with the decisions KW and Ozzie made while constructing this roster.

khan
05-12-2010, 12:05 PM
Teahen - .271, 12HR, 50 RBIs in 525 at-bats.
Pierre - .308, 57R, 30SB in 380 at-bats - on a NL playoff team.
Neither one are plus defenders at their positions, which makes it MORE important that they be pluses on the offensive side. Teahen is below average both offensively and defensively, as is Pierre.

I maintain that neither should be given the roles that they have, ESPECIALLY at a collective $6.75M between the two of them. For what they're getting, they should produce more, OR KW should have gotten cheaper players to use in their roles.

Kotsay - .278, in 187 at-bats - the only backup player.
I'd still rather have Thome for his money.

Vizquel is a bench player. Do we really have a better backup infielder? Or do you prefer Nix and Lillbridge again?
Better yet: Does this team need TWO ****ty-hitting backup middle IF? Vizquel is stealing money, only because he's too damn old. He'll be able to field at the MLB level until he's 60. But he can't hit for ****, which is this team's major flaw. We're talking about spending nearly $3M on backup IF [Vizquel/Kotsay/Nix], yet NONE of them have the potential to become more than that.

Again, these guys are way below their career numbers this year. And they all were acquired on the cheap with buyout cash coming in the Pierre/Teahen deals.
$3.75M for Teahen
$3M for Pierre
$1.375M for Vizquel
$1.5M for Kotsay

Of these 4, Teahen is the least aggravating. I'd still rather have a real DH than have Kotsay in the team.

I'm much more irritated that Jerry wouldn't pay up the going rate for a quality bat to replace Thome or Dye than that the Sox traded for Pierre and Teahen, who are decent players but not ones that can carry a team.
This is a fair opinion. But there are still inefficiencies in terms of the dollars spent on the roster. The SOX are still one of the highest-compensated teams in MLB, yet they're bad.

Spending $3M on Pierre is inefficient.
Spending ANYTHING above league min. for Vizquel and Kotsay is inefficient.
Giving a 3 year deal to a utility player to start @ 3B is inefficient.

Because of these inefficiencies, there are glaring holes in the team. I still refuse to believe that $103M buys THIS flawed a team. So, I think it's silly to defend KW for these inefficiencies. I also think that it's silly to defend Ozzie, as he HAD TO HAVE "flexibility" and Mark Kotsay instead of Jim Thome.

Nellie_Fox
05-13-2010, 01:08 AM
Um, this is their team. They get paid to be responsible for it's outcome. You can't have 4 straight years of underperforming even though there has been significant roster turnover and say that KW and OG are blameless.There hasn't been four straight years of underperforming. There was a division championship in there.



If I'm not mistaken, Pods is getting paid less than Pierre right now. Everybody makes it sound like the Sox could have had Pods for what he is getting in KC. He only accepted the KC offer after he found out the Sox wouldn't give him what he was asking for and that they were moving on.

KMcMahon817
05-13-2010, 01:26 AM
Not here. I point it at Kenny. Even though he tried to throw Oz under the bus about Thome, hes responsible for picking up Pierre, Teahan (another KC reject), and Putz.

Given up on Putz already? Pssshhh.:rolleyes:

captain54
05-16-2010, 01:27 AM
There hasn't been four straight years of underperforming. There was a division championship in there.



I've been taking a closer look at the White Sox offensive stats for these four straight/going on 5 straight seasons since 05'

dead last in the AL in BA
first in the AL in HR
near the bottom in AL in OBP and Hits
around middle of the AL in runs and slugging %

In my mind, this is underperforming. fans have been fed a steady diet of this crap for four years and counting. If the Sox can't hit HR's, they don't score, bottom line. This is not how championship teams are built. The powers that be have had 4 years, going on 5 to fix this and it's not happening, and I doubt it ever will, at this point.

Nellie_Fox
05-16-2010, 02:04 AM
I've been taking a closer look at the White Sox offensive stats for these four straight/going on 5 straight seasons since 05'

dead last in the AL in BA
first in the AL in HR
near the bottom in AL in OBP and Hits
around middle of the AL in runs and slugging %

In my mind, this is underperforming. fans have been fed a steady diet of this crap for four years and counting. If the Sox can't hit HR's, they don't score, bottom line. This is not how championship teams are built. The powers that be have had 4 years, going on 5 to fix this and it's not happening, and I doubt it ever will, at this point.The aggregate does not change the fact that it has not been four straight seasons of under-performing. A division championship is not under-performing.

russ99
05-16-2010, 11:49 AM
Neither one are plus defenders at their positions, which makes it MORE important that they be pluses on the offensive side. Teahen is below average both offensively and defensively, as is Pierre.

I maintain that neither should be given the roles that they have, ESPECIALLY at a collective $6.75M between the two of them. For what they're getting, they should produce more, OR KW should have gotten cheaper players to use in their roles.

I'd still rather have Thome for his money.

Better yet: Does this team need TWO ****ty-hitting backup middle IF? Vizquel is stealing money, only because he's too damn old. He'll be able to field at the MLB level until he's 60. But he can't hit for ****, which is this team's major flaw. We're talking about spending nearly $3M on backup IF [Vizquel/Kotsay/Nix], yet NONE of them have the potential to become more than that.


$3.75M for Teahen
$3M for Pierre
$1.375M for Vizquel
$1.5M for Kotsay

Of these 4, Teahen is the least aggravating. I'd still rather have a real DH than have Kotsay in the team.


This is a fair opinion. But there are still inefficiencies in terms of the dollars spent on the roster. The SOX are still one of the highest-compensated teams in MLB, yet they're bad.

Spending $3M on Pierre is inefficient.
Spending ANYTHING above league min. for Vizquel and Kotsay is inefficient.
Giving a 3 year deal to a utility player to start @ 3B is inefficient.

Because of these inefficiencies, there are glaring holes in the team. I still refuse to believe that $103M buys THIS flawed a team. So, I think it's silly to defend KW for these inefficiencies. I also think that it's silly to defend Ozzie, as he HAD TO HAVE "flexibility" and Mark Kotsay instead of Jim Thome.

Spending $3M on Pierre is not inefficient. Look at what leadoff guys around the league make, and who else was available this offseason? Besides, Pods wasn't coming back, so no point assuming otherwise.
Next year at $5 is pushing it, but I think Kenny was counting on Danks or Mitchell being ready to take over, and dealing Pierre.

Kotsay was signed to be a bench player/backup 1B in November. Because Jerry/Kenny didn't pay up to replace Thome or Dye with a similar level of hitter (be it power or contact hitter) Ozzie is forced to play Kotsay more than his intended role. Despite assertations to the otherwise, Kotsay wasn't re-signed to directly replace them.

Would you rather have Fields or Getz starting or Teahen? I prefer Teahen. But I'd hope that the Sox go after an impact 3B bat and move him to OF/DH. Vizquel surely wasn't signed to play every day, but to mentor Alexei.

Thome's had a decent year so far, but he's not any kind of mid-to-long term solution. It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have kept him, but he's still a 39 year old part time player.
Imagine the outcry around here if Thome was platooned here the way he is with the Twins.

My issue with the payroll is this: You go out and add a Peavy and Rios to open a window of contention and Jones at 500K is the best you can do to replace two outgoing middle-of-the-order hitters? What about that "commitment to winning" Jerry? IMO one more impact batter would have made a big difference.

tsoxman
05-16-2010, 03:58 PM
For every single thing that doesn't go to plan, everyone points fingers and lays blame at Ozzie and Kenny.

I'm frustrated too, but I prefer to be disappointed in the players who aren't performing, than constantly railing against the manager who does what he can with the players he has and/or the GM who's hands were tied by budgetary constraints.

So, what really could they have done so differently this offseason that would have made such a difference in our record this season?

And when formulating your answer, keep in mind:

Podesdnik wasn't coming back due to his salary/term demands;
Thome's 39 years old and can only play DH;
Damon signed for $8M;
Dye lowered his demands but still wants $5M+;
Where's all this extra payroll coming from?

For reference, here's the opening day payroll. (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t8-I4DzviBf0kdxr07SkZFQ&output=html)
Come on Russ...Kenny is at fault here.
.
The current 'product' will likely lose 90 plus games even though the team payroll is among the highest in the league. Last year, while we were among the league leaders in quality starts but still losing games, KW trades some marketable prospects for a terrific starting pitcher, but one with a very lareg contract. He later acquires Alex Rios who also is a good player with a big contract. The problem however, was that in the off season, he fails to boost what was one of the worst offensive and defensive teams in baseball. If Kenny did not have suffiecient payroll to field a well ropounded team, then why blow your wad on two guys (Rios and peavy)?

Kenny won a WC in 2005 (good for him) but his record of success before and after that acheivement has been poor. He has made a few good deals, but those tend to picking up castoffs with upside potential on the cheap. His bigger trades have been disasters with the exception of Freddy Gracia. His minor league sytem is a disgrace even though he has been in charge for 10 years now. And don't give me the excuse that we haven't been the beneficiaries of high draft picks.

As far as what I would have done..at some point every GM has to honestly come to a realization that what was once a good team is no longer and then it's tiome to reconstruct it. That point should have been at the trade deadline last year.

Lip Man 1
05-16-2010, 04:41 PM
Soxman beings up a great point. Others have said the same thing, you can have the two best players in baseball on the club but if the other 23 guys are trash, you're not going to win many games.

Kenny got some good parts but between Rios, Peavy, Konerko and Buehrle there isn't much payroll left to go around on quality guys.

It's like I said a few weeks ago, if you want to be a major market player, OK...then act and spend like one...if rebuilding is the way to go, OK there too, take the money and pour it into your farm system regardless of what fans, the media or other owners say.

But pick a road and follow it...don't try to do both at the same time...it simply does not work.

Lip

canOcorn
05-16-2010, 04:54 PM
Underperform for 4 straight years and going on 5.....cannot fire the team, but something needs to change.

RANDY WILES
05-16-2010, 04:57 PM
Soxman beings up a great point. Others have said the same thing, you can have the two best players in baseball on the club but if the other 23 guys are trash, you're not going to win many games.

Kenny got some good parts but between Rios, Peavy, Konerko and Buehrle there isn't much payroll left to go around on quality guys.

It's like I said a few weeks ago, if you want to be a major market player, OK...then act and spend like one...if rebuilding is the way to go, OK there too, take the money and pour it into your farm system regardless of what fans, the media or other owners say.

But pick a road and follow it...don't try to do both at the same time...it simply does not work.

Lip

Tehan is a career .279 hitter (before this year) with an average of 70 RBI's for a horrible team. Plus he hasn't played third since alex gordon came up. Should have been fine,

Here is my opinion based on gut reaction. Kenny has the team in place to be much better than it is----we have now sit thru 200 games of underperformance.


Like products, managerial groups have life cycles. So, before I started dismantling what we have---I'd go with a new field manager and coaching staff.

Plus, in my opinion Ozzie has become too big for the job---I really am not interested in his stand on immigration-----especially when he is in charge of the most underperforming team in the majors.

RANDY WILES
05-16-2010, 04:57 PM
Tehan is a career .279 hitter (before this year) with an average of 70 RBI's for a horrible team. Plus he hasn't played third since alex gordon came up. Should have been fine,

Here is my opinion based on gut reaction. Kenny has the team in place to be much better than it is----we have now sit thru 200 games of underperformance.


Like products, managerial groups have life cycles. So, before I started dismantling what we have---I'd go with a new field manager and coaching staff.

Plus, in my opinion Ozzie has become too big for the job---I really am not interested in his stand on immigration-----especially when he is in charge of the most underperforming team in the majors.

OOps----.270 hitter

jabrch
05-16-2010, 05:04 PM
Soxman beings up a great point. Others have said the same thing, you can have the two best players in baseball on the club but if the other 23 guys are trash, you're not going to win many games.

If part of your arguement is good, and the rest is hyperbole, you won't have a strong argument either.

Calling 23 guys trash is over the top, even by your standards Lip.

wassagstdu
05-16-2010, 05:22 PM
The need to fill out the roster with castoffs is a consequence of a lousy minor league pipeline. It can be argued, I guess, that the Sox' (KW's) strategy has been to draft pitchers and use them to trade for position players. How many position players came that way? Swisher? Pierre? Maybe it's a good strategy poorly executed because of poor judgement of talent. But I think it is time for a change.

Lip Man 1
05-16-2010, 06:09 PM
Jab:

I think you "literally" interpet things too much. This is not quantum physics from Harvard University. You don't need to nit-pick.

You've seen enough baseball to know that most of the players on the 2010 White Sox are bad. Pick any word you care to use... it amounts to the same thing...trash, garbage, underperforming, lackadaisical, baseball stupid.

The adjectives that you or I or anyone care to use are simply semantics, what matters is the won / lost record. This is a trash team.

Randy:

Agree with you on Mark. He'd be an excellent bench player getting into one or two games a week. He should not even be sniffing a starting job. But to get back to my point, what else do the Sox have? Nix?... even more worthless.

Lip

captain54
05-16-2010, 06:25 PM
The aggregate does not change the fact that it has not been four straight seasons of under-performing. A division championship is not under-performing.

I would say your definition of underperforming is dramatically different than most. A cumulative BA that ranks last in the AL over 4 years going on 5 is about as underperforming as you can get

asindc
05-16-2010, 06:44 PM
I would say your definition of underperforming is dramatically different than most. A cumulative BA that ranks last in the AL over 4 years going on 5 is about as underperforming as you can get

It seems that your discussion is about the past 4-year period, rather than taking each season on its own. While the point you seem to be making makes it mostly about semantics, there is a distinction between saying they have underperformed for four straight seasons and saying they have underperformed over the past four years.

NLaloosh
05-16-2010, 08:34 PM
I think, right now, Kenny should be looking at what he can get for Konerko, Jones, Rios, Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, Jenks, Putz and A.J.

They are all tradeable and would get huge financial relief and get some decent prospects back to a system with almost none.

They are stuck with Teahan, Linebrink and Pierre for now. Quentin they might as well hold onto one more season. Thornton could bring a nice return but he's so cheap they have to keep him.

Then, Jerry should fire Kenny and Ozzie after the season. For the next five years payroll should be less than $ 50 mil. Put the rest of the money into scouting and a farm system.

I would rather see the Sox finish in last place for the next 5 years so that after that they can be a professional organization from top to bottom like Minnesota and Tampa Bay.

The future of this organization ahs been mortgaged for too long. It's time to reap what has been sowed. I don't want to watch another wasted $ 100 mil. payroll in 2011 to see the new version of Kotsays, Vizquels, Pierres, Teahens etc.

Maybe, if the Sox start over and do things right they can learn how to regularly draft an develop star quality players. They could have talent in the minors at all times that are actually major league ready.

captain54
05-16-2010, 09:09 PM
I think, right now, Kenny should be looking at what he can get for Konerko, Jones, Rios, Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, Jenks, Putz and A.J.

They are all tradeable and would get huge financial relief and get some decent prospects back to a system with almost none.

They are stuck with Teahan, Linebrink and Pierre for now. Quentin they might as well hold onto one more season. Thornton could bring a nice return but he's so cheap they have to keep him.

Then, Jerry should fire Kenny and Ozzie after the season. For the next five years payroll should be less than $ 50 mil. Put the rest of the money into scouting and a farm system.

I would rather see the Sox finish in last place for the next 5 years so that after that they can be a professional organization from top to bottom like Minnesota and Tampa Bay.

The future of this organization ahs been mortgaged for too long. It's time to reap what has been sowed. I don't want to watch another wasted $ 100 mil. payroll in 2011 to see the new version of Kotsays, Vizquels, Pierres, Teahens etc.

Maybe, if the Sox start over and do things right they can learn how to regularly draft an develop star quality players. They could have talent in the minors at all times that are actually major league ready.

right on the money. one of the more insightful and intelligent posts I've read on this board in a long time.

Noneck
05-16-2010, 09:50 PM
I think, right now, Kenny should be looking at what he can get for Konerko, Jones, Rios, Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd, Jenks, Putz and A.J.

They are all tradeable and would get huge financial relief and get some decent prospects back to a system with almost none.



I wonder how tradeable most of the above players are without giving financial relief to the teams they would be traded to.

Jones and Putz are tradeable without having to give financial help but since they will both be FA next year, the Sox return would be minimal.

PK will be a FA after this year and 6m is a lot of money that would have to picked up for 1/2 of this year.

Jenks is also a tough sell at 3.75m for a half year.

Buehrle at 21m for 1 1/2 years, they would need a snake oil salesman to get rid of him.

Remember Rios was a wavier pick up which means he was untradeable last year, I don't see why he would be this year, considering he is closing in on the big back end money of his contract.

AJ at on over 3m for a half year, going into FA is one tough sell.

Floyd seems to be tradeable.

Peavy I really don't know, he makes big money for a long time though.

Remember also by the time teams will be looking, PK, AJ and Burls will all have no trade clauses so even if the Sox are able to pull the wool over some sheep eyes, those 3 could nix the deals.

Frater Perdurabo
05-16-2010, 09:57 PM
I would rather see the Sox finish in last place for the next 5 years so that after that they can be a professional organization from top to bottom like Minnesota and Tampa Bay.

They are not going to have a player development system as good as Minnesota's or Tampa Bay's as long as they don't hire more and better scouts, and hire more and better coaches who are good teachers, and change their philosophy to promote only complete players: those that can field and can handle the bat well.

Putting those things in place does not require dumping the good players the Sox do have. It does require spending maybe $10 million/year more on their minor league system than they do now, but more importantly it means cutting ties with mediocre scouts and coaches whose only virtue has been their organizational loyalty, and replacing them with superior professionals.

The root problem is that the Sox organization - as a Jerry Reinsdorf enterprise - values loyalty over excellence. The same thing is true of the Bulls organization, who essentially let Phil Jackson leave because Crubs Krause didn't like that Phil spoke his mind, and wanted a "yes man" like Tim Floyd. This is why the Sox coaching staff, up and down the system, is filled with former well-behaved and loyal Sox players.

Noneck
05-16-2010, 10:17 PM
I wonder how tradeable most of the above players are without giving financial relief to the teams they would be traded to.

Jones and Putz are tradeable without having to give financial help but since they will both be FA next year, the Sox return would be minimal.

PK will be a FA after this year and 6m is a lot of money that would have to picked up for 1/2 of this year.

Jenks is also a tough sell at 3.75m for a half year.

Buehrle at 21m for 1 1/2 years, they would need a snake oil salesman to get rid of him.

Remember Rios was a wavier pick up which means he was untradeable last year, I don't see why he would be this year, considering he is closing in on the big back end money of his contract.

AJ at on over 3m for a half year, going into FA is one tough sell.

Floyd seems to be tradeable.

Peavy I really don't know, he makes big money for a long time though.

Remember also by the time teams will be looking, PK, AJ and Burls will all have no trade clauses so even if the Sox are able to pull the wool over some sheep eyes, those 3 could nix the deals.

I forgot, Peavy has a full trade clause for this year and a partial for the next 2 years.

Sorry, I meant to edit my post not reply to it.

palehozenychicty
05-16-2010, 10:34 PM
They are not going to have a player development system as good as Minnesota's or Tampa Bay's as long as they don't hire more and better scouts, and hire more and better coaches who are good teachers, and change their philosophy to promote only complete players: those that can field and can handle the bat well.

Putting those things in place does not require dumping the good players the Sox do have. It does require spending maybe $10 million/year more on their minor league system than they do now, but more importantly it means cutting ties with mediocre scouts and coaches whose only virtue has been their organizational loyalty, and replacing them with superior professionals.

The root problem is that the Sox organization - as a Jerry Reinsdorf enterprise - values loyalty over excellence. The same thing is true of the Bulls organization, who essentially let Phil Jackson leave because Crubs Krause didn't like that Phil spoke his mind, and wanted a "yes man" like Tim Floyd. This is why the Sox coaching staff, up and down the system, is filled with former well-behaved and loyal Sox players.

Thank you. With his resources in a major market like Chicago, these teams should be better on a consistent level. I'm thankful for the titles, but he got lucky with Jordan, Pippen, and Phil. The Sox should have been the benchmark for this division, and now with the Twins generating revenue to accompany their scout system, we'll see if the organization can keep up.

Nellie_Fox
05-17-2010, 01:38 AM
Underperform for 4 straight years...Once again, it isn't four straight years. There's a division championship in there, and you don't get to define that as "under-performing" just to support your argument.

I would say your definition of underperforming is dramatically different than most.No, I'd say that "most" would not define a division championship as underperforming.

NLaloosh
05-17-2010, 07:20 AM
They are not going to have a player development system as good as Minnesota's or Tampa Bay's as long as they don't hire more and better scouts, and hire more and better coaches who are good teachers, and change their philosophy to promote only complete players: those that can field and can handle the bat well.

Putting those things in place does not require dumping the good players the Sox do have. It does require spending maybe $10 million/year more on their minor league system than they do now, but more importantly it means cutting ties with mediocre scouts and coaches whose only virtue has been their organizational loyalty, and replacing them with superior professionals.

The root problem is that the Sox organization - as a Jerry Reinsdorf enterprise - values loyalty over excellence. The same thing is true of the Bulls organization, who essentially let Phil Jackson leave because Crubs Krause didn't like that Phil spoke his mind, and wanted a "yes man" like Tim Floyd. This is why the Sox coaching staff, up and down the system, is filled with former well-behaved and loyal Sox players.\

I agree with you and that's what I'm saying. You express it better here about the player development.

However, I'm saying that right now the Sox have a lot of expensive players and some players that are in demand. Deal them to create a crop of young talent.

They can win 60 games with young talent as easily as they can with this waste of $ 100 mil. bucks. Save the money and put it into international scouting and hiring the best in the business as you said.

khan
05-17-2010, 12:44 PM
Spending $3M on Pierre is not inefficient. Look at what leadoff guys around the league make, and who else was available this offseason? Besides, Pods wasn't coming back, so no point assuming otherwise.
Next year at $5 is pushing it, but I think Kenny was counting on Danks or Mitchell being ready to take over, and dealing Pierre.
And yet, Pods took much less, on a one year deal to go to one of the ****tiest organizations in baseball. [Isn't the bolded part a bit assumptive, BTW?]

The $8M combined on Pierre is egregious and horribly inefficient. But in an organization that is completely DEVOID of anything of value in the minor league system, trading ANYTHING to get Pierre was even MORE inefficient. [Here, I'll speculate, too:] Who knows? Perhaps had KW waited, Pierre might have been DFA'ed, or Pierre could've been had for less in trade.

Or perhaps, if KW exerted some CONTROL over the situation, Ozzie wouldn't have talked KW into getting one of Ozzie's buddies from their FLA days. [/end speculation]


Kotsay was signed to be a bench player/backup 1B in November. Because Jerry/Kenny didn't pay up to replace Thome or Dye with a similar level of hitter (be it power or contact hitter) Ozzie is forced to play Kotsay more than his intended role. Despite assertations to the otherwise, Kotsay wasn't re-signed to directly replace them.
And yet, everybody had to know that Ozzie would fall in love with a ****ty player. Again. Forget about what Kotsay did in garbage time last season. Kotsay is NOT a good MLB player, and showed it for SEASONS preceding 2009. He never should have been here.

Would you rather have Fields or Getz starting or Teahen? I prefer Teahen. But I'd hope that the Sox go after an impact 3B bat and move him to OF/DH. Vizquel surely wasn't signed to play every day, but to mentor Alexei.
1. I preferred that Fields had been sold high after his LUCKY 2007, but that ship had sailed. They stupidly bought into his miraculous 2007.
2. I preferred keeping Getz in the organization, instead of picking up Grandpa Omar.
3. Grandpa Omar is too ****ing old to hit at the MLB level. He has NO BUSINESS being here.
4. Keeping Getz could have provided a cheaper backup IF than Grandpa Omar, OR been a hedge vs a potential sophomore slump by Beckham.

Thome's had a decent year so far, but he's not any kind of mid-to-long term solution. It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have kept him, but he's still a 39 year old part time player.
Imagine the outcry around here if Thome was platooned here the way he is with the Twins.
1. Who gives a **** about the long term with respect to Thome? KEEPING him here would have done two things, IMO: Shore up a ****ty offence, AND buy more time for whatever pieces in the minors [such as they are] to figure it out.

2. I FAVORED platooning Thome for YEARS. His splits v. LHP have sucked ass pretty much his entire career, yet stupid piece of **** Ozzie Guillen put him in a position to FAIL by hitting him v. LHP. [Amazing that a smarter manager didn't use Thome v. LHP this season, until the twins had an injury crisis of late.]


My issue with the payroll is this: You go out and add a Peavy and Rios to open a window of contention and Jones at 500K is the best you can do to replace two outgoing middle-of-the-order hitters? What about that "commitment to winning" Jerry?
Well, you're the one who started the "Any better ideas" thread, and YOU and others have already answered your questions over and over again.

IMO one more impact batter would have made a big difference.
Yeah, and that batter could have been Thome to hit v. RHP, and if they wanted to use Jones v. LHP, that would've been OK.

Since Quentin is looking more and more like a one-year wonder, Jones EASILY could take Quentin's spot.

Nellie_Fox
05-17-2010, 03:59 PM
And yet, Pods took much less, on a one year deal to go to one of the ****tiest organizations in baseball.That's what happens when your agent holds out for a multi-year deal at higher dollars; your team goes out and gets somebody else to fill your role, and you find that there are no takers anywhere for what you're asking. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was willing to re-sign with the Sox for what he ended up settling for with KC. People are willfully ignoring this in order to bash KW.

khan
05-17-2010, 04:06 PM
That's what happens when your agent holds out for a multi-year deal at higher dollars; your team goes out and gets somebody else to fill your role, and you find that there are no takers anywhere for what you're asking. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was willing to re-sign with the Sox for what he ended up settling for with KC. People are willfully ignoring this in order to bash KW.
There is no evidence whatsoever that he was NOT willing to re-sign with the Sox for what he ended up settling for with KC. People are willfully ignoring this in order to blindly defend KW.

See? We can ALL speculate, and state opinions as if they were fact. We ALL do it here.


Seriously though:

KW mis-read the FA market. It was a buyer's market, particularly when you're considering the likes of Pierre or Pods. If KC did not come up with their middling offer, Pods would likely be out of baseball [again]. Also, [though this is a guess] if KW came to Pods with the same offer that KC did, I'd bet on Pods being here rather than KC.

Oh, and the $8M [less Pods' middling contract] spent on Pierre would be here.

Oh, and John/Jon would be here in the organization to provide depth, for whatever that's worth.

asindc
05-17-2010, 04:37 PM
There is no evidence whatsoever that he was NOT willing to re-sign with the Sox for what he ended up settling for with KC. People are willfully ignoring this in order to blindly defend KW.

See? We can ALL speculate, and state opinions as if they were fact. We ALL do it here.


Seriously though:

KW mis-read the FA market. It was a buyer's market, particularly when you're considering the likes of Pierre or Pods. If KC did not come up with their middling offer, Pods would likely be out of baseball [again]. Also, [though this is a guess] if KW came to Pods with the same offer that KC did, I'd bet on Pods being here rather than KC.

Oh, and the $8M [less Pods' middling contract] spent on Pierre would be here.

Oh, and John/Jon would be here in the organization to provide depth, for whatever that's worth.

Sure there is. What he asked for from the Sox in money and years is more than he ended up taking from KC. That is in fact evidence that he did not want that same deal from the Sox, and that he only accepted such deal after some considerable time had passed after the negotiations with the Sox broke down, during which no one else agreed to give him what he originally asked for. Does it prove that Pods did not eventually offer the same deal to the Sox that he accepted from KC? No, it does not "prove" it, but it is evidence of such. Obviously it does not tell the whole story, but it does indicate that the Sox tried to sign him for less than what Pods originally proposed before moving on to Pierre, who is younger, less injury-prone, and a better defender. The part that is left to speculation, because it is not publicly known, is the team's final offer and Pods' final offer to the Sox.

khan
05-17-2010, 04:48 PM
Sure there is. What he asked for from the Sox in money and years is more than he ended up taking from KC. That is in fact evidence that he did not want that same deal from the Sox, and only accepted such deal after some considerable time had passed after the negotiations with the Sox broke down, and after no one else agreed to give him what he originally asked for.
So in other words, Pods, like ANY OTHER WORKER in the US, wanted more money and more job security than what his employer was willing to initially offer?

Exactly HOW is that ground-shaking, OR indicative that "he was not willing to re-sign with the Sox for what he ended up settling for with KC?"

How does it show that he "wasn't coming back?" Do we have a quote where Pods/his agent STATE, "I don't want to play for the White Sox?" [Honestly, I don't recall anything DEFINITE to that end.]

Does it prove that Pods did not eventually offer the same deal to the Sox that he accepted from KC? No, it does not "prove" it, but it is evidence of such.
And thank you for agreeing with me.

Obviously it does not tell the whole story, but it does indicate that the Sox tried to sign him for less than what Pods originally proposed before moving on to Pierre, who is younger, less injury-prone, and a better defender. The part that is left to speculation, because it is not publicly known, is the team's final offer and Pods' final offer to the Sox.
Odd. We agree TWICE, all in the same thread!

The overarching issue [to me, anyway] is NOT the Pierre vs. Pods discussion, because they both kind of suck. Let's not become the minutia police here.

It is Russ' odd construction of a thread, in an INDIRECT attempt to defend Ozzie/KW, but then russ HIMSELF criticizes them:

"My issue with the payroll is this: You go out and add a Peavy and Rios to open a window of contention and Jones at 500K is the best you can do to replace two outgoing middle-of-the-order hitters?"

Sounds to me like he doesn't like the construction of the team, either.

asindc
05-17-2010, 05:02 PM
So in other words, Pods, like ANY OTHER WORKER in the US, wanted more money and more job security than what his employer was willing to initially offer?

Exactly HOW is that ground-shaking, OR indicative that "he was willing to re-sign with the Sox for what he ended up settling for with KC?"

How does it show that he "wasn't coming back?" Do we have a quote where Pods/his agent STATE, "I don't want to play for the White Sox?" [Honestly, I don't recall anything DEFINITE to that end.]


And thank you for agreeing with me.


Odd. We agree TWICE, all in the same thread!

The overarching issue [to me, anyway] is NOT the Pierre vs. Pods discussion, because they both kind of suck. Let's not become the minutia police here.

It is Russ' odd construction of a thread, in an INDIRECT attempt to defend Ozzie/KW, but then russ HIMSELF criticizes them:

"My issue with the payroll is this: You go out and add a Peavy and Rios to open a window of contention and Jones at 500K is the best you can do to replace two outgoing middle-of-the-order hitters? "

Sounds to me like Russ doesn't like the ****ty construction of the team, partly by the players that Ozzie favors, and partly by the lack of vision by the FO.

There is a distinction between "evidence" and "proof." For example, a person sneezing is evidence of a cold, but not proof. After all, it could be allergies or just a momentary irritant. A doctor's diagnosis is proof. So if you meant to say in your earlier post that there is no proof that Pods did not want to sign with the Sox for same money and years before the Sox signed Pierre, then I agree. But if you meant to say what I intrepreted your post as saying, which is that there is no evidence of such, then I disagree.

I do agree that neither Pods or Pierre are good enough or bad enough to make or break the Sox this year, which is why I have wondered why some have expressed regret that the Sox did not re-sign Pods and traded for Pierre after the Pods talks broke down.

russ99
05-18-2010, 07:59 AM
It is Russ' odd construction of a thread, in an INDIRECT attempt to defend Ozzie/KW, but then russ HIMSELF criticizes them:

"My issue with the payroll is this: You go out and add a Peavy and Rios to open a window of contention and Jones at 500K is the best you can do to replace two outgoing middle-of-the-order hitters?"

Sounds to me like he doesn't like the construction of the team, either.

Nope, I am not making that case at all. This is fully on Jerry.

We could have made a higher offer to Matsui, we could have paid the same for Bay, we could have ponied up for Damon, even though I was against it at the time.

But we didn't, and not because Kenny didn't want to - December 10, 2009:

"We don't have any money. We're close to our budget right now, and that really inhibits what we can do in terms of the free agent market. So we have to get creative, and we've done that before.'' - KW

As for Getz vs. Teahen, Pods vs. Pierre, and the value of Thome on the team (or Thome vs. phantom bat we could have acquired), I guess we just disagree.

jabrch
05-18-2010, 10:07 AM
This is fully on Jerry.

So the payroll isn't large enough to win?

I put it on the players who are hitting/pitching like crap, not the owner who has authorized a 100mm+ payroll.

asindc
05-18-2010, 10:16 AM
So the payroll isn't large enough to win?

I put it on the players who are hitting/pitching like crap, not the owner who has authorized a 100mm+ payroll.

I think he is saying that the Sox's failure to acquire some of the players that some are complaining we did not is a budget (i.e., ownership) concern, not a GM concern. I think some fans wanted KW to get into a bidding war for Damon, or wanted him to significantly overpay for Matsui, and wanted him to accept Pods initial offer or something close to it. As KW's quote that russ99 mentioned indicates, KW has reached his budget limit. I'm not saying this to say that ownership is not spending money, my point is that the issue of spending more money is on JR, not KW.

I wholeheartedly agree that the players are to blame for not playing well as they are capable of, not the GM or the manager.

khan
05-18-2010, 10:33 AM
I think he is saying that the Sox's failure to acquire some of the players that some are complaining we did not is a budget (i.e., ownership) concern, not a GM concern. I think some fans wanted KW to get into a bidding war for Damon, or wanted him to significantly overpay for Matsui, and wanted him to accept Pods initial offer or something close to it. As KW's quote that russ99 mentioned indicates, KW has reached his budget limit. I'm not saying this to say that ownership is not spending money, my point is that the issue of spending more money is on JR, not KW.
Actually, it HAS TO be both, IMO, but moreso on the GM.

A GM can stupidly spend money, and have exactly jack and **** to show for it. [See the incompetent clown on the other side of town as but ONE example of many GM boobs in MLB.]

I think $100M+ SHOULD BUY a better team than this one. I think everyone is in agreement with this statement. JR provided KW with enough money to where this team SHOULD BE able to compete for the division. Perhaps not be a juggernaut, and run away with the AL pennant. Our division leaders in Minnesota have a similar payroll, but are LIGHTYEARS ahead of the SOX.

Does anyone disagree?

I wholeheartedly agree that the players are to blame for not playing well as they are capable of, not the GM or the manager.
It's on the players, for not performing.
It's ALSO on the manager, for putting some players into a position to fail, and for wanting a roster that can't compete in the AL.
It's ALSO on the GM, for not asserting control over the roster and for spending money and tradeable assets foolishly.

khan
05-18-2010, 10:44 AM
Nope, I am not making that case at all. This is fully on Jerry.
So in other words, you believe that $100M+ is insufficient to compete, despite the very real fact that Minnesota has a similar payroll, yet are kicking the SOX's asses?

We could have made a higher offer to Matsui, we could have paid the same for Bay, we could have ponied up for Damon, even though I was against it at the time.
I'm always in favor of acquiring good players at good prices. Kotsay, Vizquel, Teahen, and Pierre don't really fit this categorization.


As for Getz vs. Teahen, Pods vs. Pierre, and the value of Thome on the team (or Thome vs. phantom bat we could have acquired), I guess we just disagree.

Actually, it should be Pods + a few million + Ely + Link vs. Pierre. There are outside costs to acquiring Pierre, BEYOND comparing the relative merits of Pierre v. Pods.

Thome vs. Kotsay. They're on similar contracts, and there were no outside acquisition costs to Kotsay OR Thome.

And, Getz + a few million vs. Teahen and his ridiculously-obese-contract-for-a-utility-player.

When considering a roster's construction, it is insufficient to merely compare player-to-player, WITHOUT also considering what it costs to get a player, or to give up a player. Link/Ely probably would not have made the team. But, they're apparently MLB-ready, and would provide depth OR a piece to trade, had they kept Pods.

KW should KNOW that the minor league system is virtually empty. Because of this, he shouldn't easily give away assets, unless there is no other way to acquire said assets. Now, this team is both expensive AND crappy AND has few-to-no pieces to bring up or trade, AND has little-to-no margin for error.

asindc
05-18-2010, 10:47 AM
Actually, it HAS TO be both, IMO, but moreso on the GM.

A GM can stupidly spend money, and have exactly jack and **** to show for it. [See the incompetent clown on the other side of town as but ONE example of many GM boobs in MLB.]

I think $100M+ SHOULD BUY a better team than this one. I think everyone is in agreement with this statement. JR provided KW with enough money to where this team SHOULD BE able to compete for the division. Perhaps not be a juggernaut, and run away with the AL pennant. Our division leaders in Minnesota have a similar payroll, but are LIGHTYEARS ahead of the SOX.

Does anyone disagree?


It's on the players, for not performing.
It's ALSO on the manager, for putting some players into a position to fail, and for wanting a roster that can't compete in the AL.
It's ALSO on the GM, for not asserting control over the roster and for spending money and tradeable assets foolishly.

I definitely agree with this statement, and I think the Twinkees' advantage over us with regard to payroll/performance ratio (even when we won in 2005 and 2008, they were getting better value based on what they were spending) is directly the result of our woeful farm system and their top-flight farm system. I have said that many times. KW is directly responsible for that, no question. But I can't blame him if the budget he is given will not allow him to outbid for Damon, or overpay for Matsui similar to how LAAAAA overpaid for Hunter, or get into the FA market full bore for someone like Sabathia, Teixeira, or even Beltre.

I don't know if ownership is holding back, but from what KW has said publicly, he can't afford to pay someone like Gary Matthews ridiculous money, and then turn around and pay Hunter even more ridiculous money to make up for the Matthews mistake. Or pay Teixeira crazy money to make up for a Giambi signing. Unfortunately, the Sox are among the 25-26 teams that have to be judicious in the FA market. Of course, the best way to overcome that is to grow your own, so to speak, just as Minny does. I get the frustration of being a big-market team that rarely plays that way in the FA market, but we simply don't generate the same revenue that other big-market teams do. That is not to say that I fully believe that payroll cannot be increased, but it is part of our reality. The best way to change that is to build from within, something KW has not done well at all.

SI1020
05-18-2010, 11:15 AM
In the interest of bandwidth I'll just say I agree with khan and asindc here.

jabrch
05-18-2010, 11:27 AM
I think he is saying that the Sox's failure to acquire some of the players that some are complaining we did not is a budget (i.e., ownership) concern, not a GM concern. I think some fans wanted KW to get into a bidding war for Damon, or wanted him to significantly overpay for Matsui, and wanted him to accept Pods initial offer or something close to it. As KW's quote that russ99 mentioned indicates, KW has reached his budget limit. I'm not saying this to say that ownership is not spending money, my point is that the issue of spending more money is on JR, not KW.

I wholeheartedly agree that the players are to blame for not playing well as they are capable of, not the GM or the manager.


I think KW chose to not give up all his flexibility for Damon. Didn't we hear that Matsui didn't want to come here for whatever reason?

KW has always said that JR would up the ante if the right move was out there, and that JR never said NO to spending more... I'm not convinced that ownership rejected any plea from management to spend.

Lip Man 1
05-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Jab:

All I know about Matsui is that he was quoted as saying the Sox were his second choice behind the Yankees. That he wanted to wait a bit to see what the Yanks were going to do than decide what he would do and where he would go.

Then he signed with the Angels.

Lip

Noneck
05-18-2010, 12:12 PM
The real problem with this team is that it is way too top heavy. 4 Sox players comprise about half of this years team salary. If these players were perennial all stars maybe this structure would work but they aren't.


Next year may be worse, 3 players may comprise half of the Sox budget for salary.

russ99
05-18-2010, 01:26 PM
Actually, it HAS TO be both, IMO, but moreso on the GM.

A GM can stupidly spend money, and have exactly jack and **** to show for it. [See the incompetent clown on the other side of town as but ONE example of many GM boobs in MLB.]

I think $100M+ SHOULD BUY a better team than this one. I think everyone is in agreement with this statement. JR provided KW with enough money to where this team SHOULD BE able to compete for the division. Perhaps not be a juggernaut, and run away with the AL pennant. Our division leaders in Minnesota have a similar payroll, but are LIGHTYEARS ahead of the SOX.

Does anyone disagree?


It's on the players, for not performing.
It's ALSO on the manager, for putting some players into a position to fail, and for wanting a roster that can't compete in the AL.
It's ALSO on the GM, for not asserting control over the roster and for spending money and tradeable assets foolishly.

I'm all about blaming the players for not performing. That's a big part.

You throw $100m around like it's a big deal, it's not and shouldn't be for a big market team.

We were at $100-1M payroll at the end of last season and $103.5 at the beginning of this season. All I'm saying is if the Sox really wanted to compete, they should have spend a little more in the offseason. Again, one bat (who's not 39 years old) could have made a big difference. There's no point comparing Thome and Kotsay, since they're not comparable players and are not in the same role.

We all know the Twins are about minor league player development and the Sox are not. If the Sox were, they could spend less on big-leaguers. Since they're not, I expect them to spend more on talent in a year where they wanted to contend for a league title, like the Dodgers, Angels, Red Sox and other big market teams do.

I'm still waiting for that quote that says that Ozzie made personnel decisions. Kenny got players who were flexible, who could play multiple positions instead of a guy who could only play DH - which is what Ozzie asked for, he didn't get players Ozzie specifically wanted. This idea that Ozzie made roster decisions is ludicrous.

And what players did Ozzie put in a position to fail?? This should be a good one.

Domeshot17
05-18-2010, 01:35 PM
I'm all about blaming the players for not performing. That's a big part.

You throw $100m around like it's a big deal, it's not and shouldn't be for a big market team.

We were at $100-1M payroll at the end of last season and $103.5 at the beginning of this season. All I'm saying is if the Sox really wanted to compete, they should have spend a little more in the offseason. Again, one bat (who's not 39 years old) could have made a big difference. There's no point comparing Thome and Kotsay, since they're not comparable players and are not in the same role.

We all know the Twins are about minor league player development and the Sox are not. If the Sox were, they could spend less on big-leaguers. Since they're not, I expect them to spend more on talent in a year where they wanted to contend for a league title, like the Dodgers, Angels, Red Sox and other big market teams do.

I'm still waiting for that quote that says that Ozzie made personnel decisions. Kenny got players who were flexible, who could play multiple positions instead of a guy who could only play DH - which is what Ozzie asked for, he didn't get players Ozzie specifically wanted. This idea that Ozzie made roster decisions is ludicrous.

And what players did Ozzie put in a position to fail?? This should be a good one.

Ozzie has ruined any value Kotsay brings in the same way he ruined Mackowiak. You take a player whos entire value is based on him batting off the bench and starting 1 game a week, and you put him as a starter in the middle of the order.

It was VERY WELL KNOWN that Kenny wanted and still wants a real DH where Ozzie seems to think he can get buy in this rotation. This has been very, very , very clearly Ozzie's definition of a DH this season. Just to let you know, the Sox DH production = DEAD LAST IN THE MLB.

This is not high school baseball. Guys shouldn't just rotate all over the damn place. Have 9 guys who start at a position, and keep them there. Have a few guys on the bench who can back up various positions. If you are going to go with a rotation, make sure all the players are STARTER calibur, don't think you can be fine rotating bench players like the Sox have. Christ, this can be true for any job. Would you be productive if you're boss had you do a different job every 2 days? Atleast for me, I like to know my role and get in a groove.

All Ozzie and Kenny continually prove is that 2005 was more fluke than plan. The inability to sustain winning since is further proof, as has been zero direction since 2007. 2007 2008 2009 and 2010 have all been the same. Throw a ton of **** on the wall and see what sticks.

Domeshot17
05-18-2010, 01:40 PM
Also Russ, just so you know, you can stop crying we are losing because we don't spend on payroll. 7th highest in baseball, higher than your big market Angels, Dodgers etc. I would hope a top 10 GM could win with a top 10 payroll.

There is only 1 area where we spend like cheap bastards that kills us, and this is in scouting and the draft. You would have a legit complaint there. But payroll is about 108 mil. I doubt there is much more room since no one is showing up to the games.

khan
05-18-2010, 01:52 PM
I'm all about blaming the players for not performing. That's a big part.
Agreed. But assembling THIS collection of players is like entering the Kentucky Derby with an Ox instead of a thoroughbred(sp?). Or entering the Indy 500 with a Geo Metro. Or going into Tora Bora with a pea-shooter instead of platoons of Marines and their modern tools of war.

You can be disappointed in the players, but it was clear to MANY of us that the roster was insufficiently-talented.

You throw $100m around like it's a big deal, it's not and shouldn't be for a big market team.

We were at $100-1M payroll at the end of last season and $103.5 at the beginning of this season. All I'm saying is if the Sox really wanted to compete, they should have spend a little more in the offseason.
So you don't like the "$100M+" figure?

How about this: The White Sox are 7th in the bigs in terms of payroll for this season. If memory serves, they have outspent all of their competitors in the divison, yet the team sucks ass.

Again, one bat (who's not 39 years old) could have made a big difference. There's no point comparing Thome and Kotsay, since they're not comparable players and are not in the same role.
Sure. So are you saying that you'd rather spend the $1.5M on a piece of **** like Kotsay?

After all, YOU were promoting the idea that the SOX "don't have it to spend." Thome, as a LH bat vs. RHP would have been AWESOME at the price. Who gives a rip about his age, Thome would be a HUGE help to this ****ty lineup. Do you disagree?

We all know the Twins are about minor league player development and the Sox are not. If the Sox were, they could spend less on big-leaguers. Since they're not, I expect them to spend more on talent in a year where they wanted to contend for a league title, like the Dodgers, Angels, Red Sox and other big market teams do.

I'm still waiting for that quote that says that Ozzie made personnel decisions. Kenny got players who were flexible, who could play multiple positions instead of a guy who could only play DH - which is what Ozzie asked for, he didn't get players Ozzie specifically wanted. This idea that Ozzie made roster decisions is ludicrous.
You just contradicted yourself, and answered your own question. Ozzie asked KW to get worthless pieces of **** like Kotsay and Vizquel so that he could have "flexibility," and KW delivered.

KW left the Thome decision up to Ozzie; you can google "Ozzie Guillen Jim Thome" and find all sorts of links.

And what players did Ozzie put in a position to fail??
Off the top of my head,

Jim Thome, batting v. LHP, when his splits v. LHP SCREAM out for him to be platooned.
Gordon Beckham, and his sub-.100 BA [for the month of May] STILL in the bigs, when he should be back in Charlotte, figuring it out.
Mark Kotsay batting 3rd, when it is clear that he sucks.
Mackowiac as a starting CF.
Using the K-machine Juan Uribe as the #2 hitter.

We could keep going on, but you're dead-set to apologize for Ozzie, his preferences in a roster, KW not asserting control over the roster, and the ****tiest waste of $100M that we've seen in a long time.

russ99
05-18-2010, 02:45 PM
Also Russ, just so you know, you can stop crying we are losing because we don't spend on payroll. 7th highest in baseball, higher than your big market Angels, Dodgers etc. I would hope a top 10 GM could win with a top 10 payroll.

There is only 1 area where we spend like cheap bastards that kills us, and this is in scouting and the draft. You would have a legit complaint there. But payroll is about 108 mil. I doubt there is much more room since no one is showing up to the games.

Not sure where you're getting your info, but the Angels are spending $121M this year. I don't think we should be that high, but an extra $7-8M would have given Kenny more options.

jabrch
05-18-2010, 02:48 PM
Not sure where you're getting your info, but the Angels are spending $121M this year. I don't think we should be that high, but an extra $7-8M would have given Kenny more options.





Are you sure that KW doesn't have it - and was holding off to make a pickup at the deadline, where you get more value? (**** may not work out that way - but that is KW's MO...)

russ99
05-18-2010, 02:51 PM
You can be disappointed in the players, but it was clear to MANY of us that the roster was insufficiently-talented.

So you don't like the "$100M+" figure?

How about this: The White Sox are 7th in the bigs in terms of payroll for this season. If memory serves, they have outspent all of their competitors in the divison, yet the team sucks ass.

Sure. So are you saying that you'd rather spend the $1.5M on a piece of **** like Kotsay?

After all, YOU were promoting the idea that the SOX "don't have it to spend." Thome, as a LH bat vs. RHP would have been AWESOME at the price. Who gives a rip about his age, Thome would be a HUGE help to this ****ty lineup. Do you disagree?

You just contradicted yourself, and answered your own question. Ozzie asked KW to get worthless pieces of **** like Kotsay and Vizquel so that he could have "flexibility," and KW delivered.

KW left the Thome decision up to Ozzie; you can google "Ozzie Guillen Jim Thome" and find all sorts of links.

Off the top of my head,

Jim Thome, batting v. LHP, when his splits v. LHP SCREAM out for him to be platooned.
Gordon Beckham, and his sub-.100 BA [for the month of May] STILL in the bigs, when he should be back in Charlotte, figuring it out.
Mark Kotsay batting 3rd, when it is clear that he sucks.
Mackowiac as a starting CF.
Using the K-machine Juan Uribe as the #2 hitter.

We could keep going on, but you're dead-set to apologize for Ozzie, his preferences in a roster, KW not asserting control over the roster, and the ****tiest waste of $100M that we've seen in a long time.

Did I say that Kotsay and Vizquel were anything more than bench players? My whole point is that we needed a bat.

Sorry, but I thought then and I think now that the Thome ship has sailed.

Sure, Ozzie made the call on Thome, but he never said a thing about other personnel decisions or ask for Vizquel or Teahen, who were KW's guys that he's wanted for some time.

Being flexible with DH is one thing, not having a bat that can produce at DH is another.

I think Ozzie's doing OK, you think he sucks, so there's no point arguing further.

jabrch
05-18-2010, 03:04 PM
Sorry, but I thought then and I think now that the Thome ship has sailed.

And Thome was replaced by Jones who has been more than adequate.

Domeshot17
05-18-2010, 03:07 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries

According to sports line, the Angels are just over 100 mil. Few other sites confirm this.

dickallen15
05-18-2010, 03:15 PM
And Thome was replaced by Jones who has been more than adequate.
White Sox DH's have hit below .200 with OBP below .300 and an OPS below .600 so far this season. The guys who are hitting are hitting when they aren't DHing.

khan
05-18-2010, 03:47 PM
Did I say that Kotsay and Vizquel were anything more than bench players? My whole point is that we needed a bat.
Yes, and when Ozzie wants a "flexible lineup," your bench players had better be able to hit. It was moronic to not have at least ONE bench player that can hit.

Sorry, but I thought then and I think now that the Thome ship has sailed.
For Kotsay's money, Thome seems to be doing just fine. He'd look GREAT as a LH bat off the bench.

Sure, Ozzie made the call on Thome, but he never said a thing about other personnel decisions or ask for Vizquel or Teahen, who were KW's guys that he's wanted for some time.
1. If you think that Vizquel isn't close to Ozzie, you're kidding yourself.

2. Thank you for agreeing with me, with respect to Ozzie having WAY TOO MUCH input into the makeup of this team.

Being flexible with DH is one thing, not having a bat that can produce at DH is another.
Thank you for agreeing with me. You asked, "Any better ideas," and YOU yourself [and others] have answered it over and over again.

I think Ozzie's doing OK, you think he sucks, so there's no point arguing further.
Actually, I don't think Ozzie sucks as a manager. I think there are quite a few things that he does well.

However, judging talent, and properly deploying it are not his strengths. It's OK to admit "your guy" has strengths and weaknesses. Ozzie's a favorite of mine, but there are certain things that he simply doesn't do very well.

khan
05-18-2010, 03:48 PM
And Thome was replaced by Jones who has been more than adequate.

Check back with us in a few weeks. Jones was doing quite well last season early on, but fell off.

I remain unconvinced that he will continue his current pace.

Nellie_Fox
05-19-2010, 01:11 AM
We could have made a higher offer to Matsui...

All I know about Matsui is that he was quoted as saying the Sox were his second choice behind the Yankees. That he wanted to wait a bit to see what the Yanks were going to do than decide what he would do and where he would go.

Then he signed with the Angels.

LipAnd he's not exactly tearing it up with the Angels: .234/.312/.394