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View Full Version : Time to send Beckham to minors


Rawhide
05-10-2010, 10:19 PM
It's obvious to me that Gordon Beckham is overmatched at the major league level. It's time the White Sox sent him to the minors to work on his swing and regain his confidence.
No player should be handed a job based on his potential. Make the move Kenny. It's overdue.

WhiteSox1989
05-10-2010, 10:20 PM
No.

DirtySox
05-10-2010, 10:22 PM
He needs to be moved down in the lineup first.

TDog
05-10-2010, 10:25 PM
Gordon Beckham is not going to the minors.

Discussing whether he should go to the minors would be pointless. And, frankly, I'm not going to give it any thought.

LoveYourSuit
05-10-2010, 10:29 PM
He needs to be moved down in the order and stay there for a long time. 8 or 9 is where he needs to hit.


For Ozzie being such a genius and reinventing the DH position, I don't understand how this thought of dropping Gordon down in the order has not crossed his mind.

Coops4Aces
05-10-2010, 10:30 PM
:rolleyes::threadsucks

DumpJerry
05-10-2010, 10:40 PM
This has been discussed a lot today on The Score. They should drop him in the order before sending him down.

One thing they found troubling on The Score was his comment last week that he does not want to be in The Show right now......

soxlady8
05-10-2010, 10:40 PM
just move Becks down to the 8th or 9th like previously said ... I do not see him going back to the minors just yet !

LongLiveFisk
05-10-2010, 10:42 PM
He needs to be moved down in the lineup first.

I think a majority of people here would agree with this statement. Down to the minors is a bit drastic right now.

hi im skot
05-10-2010, 10:42 PM
It's obvious to me that Gordon Beckham is overmatched at the major league level.

Yep. He totally got schooled last year on his way to winning a couple of postseason awards and giving Sox fans (and the rest of the league) reason to believe he's legit.

A Major League scout you are not.

WhiteSox1989
05-10-2010, 10:43 PM
Yep. He totally got schooled last year on his way to winning a couple of postseason awards and giving Sox fans (and the rest of the league) reason to believe he's legit.

A Major League scout you are not.
You don't know that..............

hi im skot
05-10-2010, 10:45 PM
You don't know that..............

I'll take my chances. :cool:

Gavin
05-10-2010, 10:54 PM
Oh man this thread would have been hilarious and self-righteous in June 2009.

And then Beckham hit like .300 the rest of the season

thomas35forever
05-10-2010, 10:56 PM
Who would you bring up to replace him? Look at our farm system. Not many guys down there are ready for the bigs.

sox1970
05-10-2010, 11:00 PM
You bat him 7th or 8th on this trip. If he's no better, then you send him down.

JB98
05-10-2010, 11:04 PM
You bat him 7th or 8th on this trip. If he's no better, then you send him down.

Agreed. Move him down in the lineup and give him another week. If he puts up another 2 for 25 and keeps striking out, then something will have to be done.

DSpivack
05-10-2010, 11:05 PM
Who would you bring up to replace him? Look at our farm system. Not many guys down there are ready for the bigs.

Jayson Nix! Bwahaha. Speaking of which, I actually saw a car in Skokie this morning with that exact license plate; wonder what was so funny.

happydude
05-10-2010, 11:05 PM
If the problem is limited to the mechanics of his swing than sending him down to work those flaws out in a relaxed environment may be appropriate. But if its primarily an issue of his mental state I would say no; after all, getting his confidence back in the minors would seem to only help him in the minors. Sooner or later, he's going to have to hit major league pitching.

He hasn't completely broken down; he's still drawing walks which suggests he's seeing the ball fine and maintaining a certain amount of discipline. The team is counting on him to hit at some point; I say they are best served seeing if he's strong enough to deal with his early season failures, adjust, and begin to hit. If not, then the organization has learned some other, less encouraging things about him and can plan for the future accordingly.

JB98
05-10-2010, 11:05 PM
Who would you bring up to replace him? Look at our farm system. Not many guys down there are ready for the bigs.

Lillibridge would probably be recalled, but Vizquel would get the majority of the starts if Beckham is sent down.

Coops4Aces
05-10-2010, 11:20 PM
There is ZERO reason to send Beckham down. Just let him keep playing baseball! God, you think Vizquel or Nix will do better? NO! So let him work out his problems up here.

hi im skot
05-10-2010, 11:25 PM
He hasn't completely broken down; he's still drawing walks which suggests he's seeing the ball fine and maintaining a certain amount of discipline.

He could also be like me in little league and just scared ****less to take the bat off his shoulder.

KMcMahon817
05-10-2010, 11:26 PM
Lillibridge would probably be recalled, but Vizquel would get the majority of the starts if Beckham is sent down.
:bundy

happydude
05-10-2010, 11:41 PM
He could also be like me in little league and just scared ****less to take the bat off his shoulder.

Lol! That possibility hadn't occurred to me.

GAsoxfan
05-10-2010, 11:46 PM
He needs to be moved down in the order and stay there for a long time. 8 or 9 is where he needs to hit.


For Ozzie being such a genius and reinventing the DH position, I don't understand how this thought of dropping Gordon down in the order has not crossed his mind.


I don't know why they forced him into the #2 role at all. He struggled there last year too (.248 BA).

Slappy
05-11-2010, 12:08 AM
I could use a laugh, so can anyone tell me why it's OK to send Teahen down to the minors and not Beckham?

Thanks.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 03:39 AM
There is ZERO reason to send Beckham down. Just let him keep playing baseball! God, you think Vizquel or Nix will do better? NO! So let him work out his problems up here.

We need to stop thinking about 2010 like it still matters, it's painfully clear how deficient the Sox are... at numerous facets of the game. Right now, the most important thing should be to start trying to get the players you think you will be counting on in the future back on track; Beckham and Quentin. First off, they're both hitting under .200, so let's cut the crap like it would take an expedition to find guys capable of replacing their production in the lineup. Right now, it seems like the only requirement is to find a guy with a pulse, and they'll probably be as productive in the short-term as either of them.

That said, I'm no player development expert, and if the Sox higher-ups really think they're better served staying in Chicago and working through their problems in the Majors, fine, but we need to start treating 2010 as a lost cause and focusing on the next few seasons. There's no reason to sacrifice 2011 and beyond for pride and unwillingness to give up on this team. Ozzie and Kenny thought they were going to prove to everyone how damn smart they are, that they went so out of the box and built a National League-style winner in the A.L. And it's imploding before their eyes, and right now the prudent move would be to start focusing on the next few years instead of holding on to their pathetic vanity and keeping all our eggs in the 2010 basket.

masloan
05-11-2010, 04:34 AM
:rolleyes::threadsucks

I think this post sucks. What does this actually add to the discussion. While I am not in favor of sending Beckham down, I completely understand why some people might.

masloan
05-11-2010, 04:40 AM
Yep. He totally got schooled last year on his way to winning a couple of postseason awards and giving Sox fans (and the rest of the league) reason to believe he's legit.

A Major League scout you are not.

I am not really sure how that is relevant. I don't think anyone is saying Beckham will never make it. But there were also times last year when Beckham struggled. He hit .223 in August. He had a really hot July in which he hit .330, but other than that month he hit .249.

Beckham still has ways to go in my opinion. I do not think at this point the Sox should send him down. But if he drops down in the order and still struggles than I think it might be necessary.

MetroPD
05-11-2010, 05:04 AM
TCG and Teahan along with him right?

LITTLE NELL
05-11-2010, 05:12 AM
[QUOTE=LoveYourSuit;2492902]He needs to be moved down in the order and stay there for a long time. 8 or 9 is where he needs to hit.

Trouble is that we are loaded with candidates for the 8th and 9th spots in the lineup.

palehozenychicty
05-11-2010, 06:18 AM
I don't know why they forced him into the #2 role at all. He struggled there last year too (.248 BA).

exactly. They need to give the kid a chance to play. Putting him in the two hole does not cater to his strengths.

SCCWS
05-11-2010, 07:15 AM
exactly. They need to give the kid a chance to play. Putting him in the two hole does not cater to his strengths.

I don't have an issue sending him down, but this "two hole" theory is wrong. First of all, Pierre has not been hitting in front of him. So most times when he comes up to start the game, there is 1 out and bases are empty. He is free to do whatever he wants. Second, he is striking out a lot because he is swinging like a batter lower in the order and not trying to just make contact like a #2 hitter. If Pierre was on base a lot and he was being asked to take pitches I could see the issue. That is not happening.
The change in moving to another spot itself may help him, but hitting second is probably not the problem.

johnnyg83
05-11-2010, 08:39 AM
May have been true earlier in the season but Pierre's hitting .316 avg./.366 OBP in May.

Beckham's hitting .071 /.278 ... just two singles.

asindc
05-11-2010, 08:42 AM
I don't have an issue sending him down, but this "two hole" theory is wrong. First of all, Pierre has not been hitting in front of him. So most times when he comes up to start the game, there is 1 out and bases are empty. He is free to do whatever he wants. Second, he is striking out a lot because he is swinging like a batter lower in the order and not trying to just make contact like a #2 hitter. If Pierre was on base a lot and he was being asked to take pitches I could see the issue. That is not happening.
The change in moving to another spot itself may help him, but hitting second is probably not the problem.

I agree with this. It's a not-being-able-to-make-contact problem, not a trying-to-protect-Pierre problem. That said, move him down in the lineup.

Quentin4prez
05-11-2010, 09:11 AM
if you send him down before moving him in the order you arn't doing his confidence any good. With that being said i think he should bat 7,8, or 9. there is a negative to this though as he will not see as many good pitches to hit, but if he is not hitting them then why even have him in the 2 hole to see them. I think Rios should hit 2 as he is a high average, 20 sb, 20-30 guy

LoveYourSuit
05-11-2010, 09:20 AM
[QUOTE=LoveYourSuit;2492902]He needs to be moved down in the order and stay there for a long time. 8 or 9 is where he needs to hit.

Trouble is that we are loaded with candidates for the 8th and 9th spots in the lineup.

That's the sad part

veeter
05-11-2010, 09:24 AM
Yep. He totally got schooled last year on his way to winning a couple of postseason awards and giving Sox fans (and the rest of the league) reason to believe he's legit.

A Major League scout you are not.Exactly. He played very well for four months last year, not four weeks. He's not a fluke. Gordon has never struggled like this and his very frustrated. A couple bloop hits, a nice piece of hitting or anything could get his mind right again. Moving him down in the order would be the perfect thing to do.

masloan
05-11-2010, 09:52 AM
Exactly. He played very well for four months last year, not four weeks. He's not a fluke. Gordon has never struggled like this and his very frustrated. A couple bloop hits, a nice piece of hitting or anything could get his mind right again. Moving him down in the order would be the perfect thing to do.

This is such a misconception. I posted this already but I will post it again:

I don't think anyone is saying Beckham will never make it. But there were also times last year when Beckham struggled. He hit .223 in August. He had a really hot July in which he hit .330, but other than that month he hit .249.

khan
05-11-2010, 11:19 AM
We need to stop thinking about 2010 like it still matters, it's painfully clear how deficient the Sox are... at numerous facets of the game.
Agreed. Unless Minnesota are completely SAVAGED by injuries, AND there is a major miracle in this team that we're not seeing, this team will not be relevant this year.

Right now, the most important thing should be to start trying to get the players you think you will be counting on in the future back on track; Beckham and Quentin.
This is probably the only thing that really matters. Everything else is window dressing.

First off, they're both hitting under .200, so let's cut the crap like it would take an expedition to find guys capable of replacing their production in the lineup. Right now, it seems like the only requirement is to find a guy with a pulse, and they'll probably be as productive in the short-term as either of them.
No ****. Who really gives a rip if they bring up Lillibridge? He can't do much worse than Beckham is doing right now, and anyway, Vizquel will play everyday IF Beckham is sent down.

The same is true with Quentin. Even IF they send him down, Ozzie will [stupidly] play Kotsay almost everyday, with one or two days/week for Gartrell or Danks. But it doesn't matter, since Quentin isn't doing much right now, either with the glove or the bat.


That said, I'm no player development expert, and if the Sox higher-ups really think they're better served staying in Chicago and working through their problems in the Majors, fine, but we need to start treating 2010 as a lost cause and focusing on the next few seasons. There's no reason to sacrifice 2011 and beyond for pride and unwillingness to give up on this team. Ozzie and Kenny thought they were going to prove to everyone how damn smart they are, that they went so out of the box and built a National League-style winner in the A.L.
Given that there are no more chips to trade away to FIX this weak team, I favored a more active and INTELLIGENT approach to FA this offseason. There ARE no Podsedniks out on the street that can ride in and SAVE the offense, as he had to do a year ago. There's NOTHING in the minors that can fix the glaring holes in the team's poor construction.

So, I favor sending BOTH TCQ AND Beckham down. Their future is more important to the club than this season, unfortunately. I could be wrong, but it seems to me to be the only logical move they can make right now.

Coops4Aces
05-11-2010, 11:57 AM
Giving up in May? Are you kidding me? Beckham, AJ, Pierre, Alexei, Teahen, Quentin, Kotsay, Vizquel, Nix have all hit for ****. I'm sorry, but there is no chance in hell then continue to suck for the rest of the season. Same goes for Floyd and to a lesser extent Buehrle. Jenks has been bad, same goes for Pena, Williams, Putz and Linebrink.

No chance this team, with this talent continues to suck. 32 down, 130 to go....we still got a shot.

sox1970
05-11-2010, 12:14 PM
Giving up in May? Are you kidding me? Beckham, AJ, Pierre, Alexei, Teahen, Quentin, Kotsay, Vizquel, Nix have all hit for ****. I'm sorry, but there is no chance in hell then continue to suck for the rest of the season. Same goes for Floyd and to a lesser extent Buehrle. Jenks has been bad, same goes for Pena, Williams, Putz and Linebrink.

No chance this team, with this talent continues to suck. 32 down, 130 to go....we still got a shot.

If the Twins go 70-60 (which is conservative), they'll end up 91-71.

For the Sox to go 91-71, they have to go 78-52, which is a .600 winning percentage.

They better get cracking now.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 12:16 PM
No chance this team, with this talent continues to suck. 32 down, 130 to go....we still got a shot.

No chance? Well, we must agree to disagree.

Konerko05
05-11-2010, 12:23 PM
Beckham needs to concentrate on taking the ball to RF again.

kjhanson
05-11-2010, 12:28 PM
If the Twins go 70-60 (which is conservative), they'll end up 91-71.

For the Sox to go 91-71, they have to go 78-52, which is a .600 winning percentage.

They better get cracking now.

And it was some time in early September 2005 when I said "if the Sox play .500 ball Cleveland has to go play .900 to catch us."

I learned my lesson then.

sox1970
05-11-2010, 12:34 PM
And it was some time in early September 2005 when I said "if the Sox play .500 ball Cleveland has to go play .900 to catch us."

I learned my lesson then.

It should be noted the Indians never caught the Sox.

I was just pointing out that it's very unlikely the Sox will get back into this. Until they reach .500, they aren't in it. So until that point, it's kind of ridiculous to think they have a September run in them.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 12:40 PM
And it was some time in early September 2005 when I said "if the Sox play .500 ball Cleveland has to go play .900 to catch us."

I learned my lesson then.

Let the record show that A) the Indians never actually caught the Sox and B) that run they had was epically historic. We're talking unprecedented in the history of baseball. Of course, the Sox could play .900 baseball for an extended period of time, but if you're hanging your hat on repeating something that's happened once in the past 110 years, that's fine, but I think the more prudent move would be to start making preparations for 2011 when you get to start with a fresh slate. This team needs to get a lot better in a lot of places if they think they're going to compete with Minnesota over 162 games.

kufram
05-11-2010, 12:42 PM
Anyone who thinks that mid-May is the time to send the likes of Beckham and TCQ to the minors just doesn't understand how major league baseball works. There's no talking to such people.

TheVulture
05-11-2010, 12:44 PM
Beckham's hitting like poop, but he's still on pace for eighty walks. Once he gets out of his funk he's going to be a beast.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 12:50 PM
Anyone who thinks that mid-May is the time to send the likes of Beckham and TCQ to the minors just doesn't understand how major league baseball works. There's no talking to such people.

Well then please impart your infinite wisdom on us, oh Wise Sage.

:rolleyes:

The most important thing is that Beckham and Quentin figure their **** out, here, Charlotte, etc. Wherever. These are the guys we need to lean on for the next few seasons. If they bomb, we're in all sorts of trouble.

Zakath
05-11-2010, 12:52 PM
If the Twins go 70-60 (which is conservative), they'll end up 91-71.

For the Sox to go 91-71, they have to go 78-52, which is a .600 winning percentage.

They better get cracking now.

And now means the next two in Minnesota. They need to at least split this series. It's not over if they get swept, but that would mean 10 games back in mid-May vs. a team that looks like, as you noted, could easily win 90.

khan
05-11-2010, 12:55 PM
Anyone who thinks that mid-May is the time to send the likes of Beckham and TCQ to the minors just doesn't understand how major league baseball works. There's no talking to such people.

I know of a former major league ballplayer who was sent down after some early struggles.

This player ended up getting lucky, and ended up being pretty "just OK" at baseball.

Well, he ended up being a 20-time All Star selection. He won 7 world series rings.

He got lucky, and won 3 MVPs.

He SOMEHOW won a gold glove.

He ended up hitting .298 for a career, with "only" 536 HR.

At the end of his career, he was a 1st Ballot Hall of Fame selection, with 80%+ of the ballots choosing him for induction. He must have bribed the voters, since NO ONE who has ANY baseball ability has EVER been sent down after some initial struggles.






This player was some schmuck, some scrub, some bum named "Mickey Mantle."



Now, if some schmuck who CLEARLY sucked at baseball WAAAAAYYYYY MORE than the golden gods that are Gordan Beckham and Carlos Quentin can LUCK his way into having an "ok" career, I'd agree with you. Don't send down these CLEAR HALL OF FAMERS, because it's never happened before. [Give me a ****ing break. You act like Quentin and Beckham are "entitled" to their jobs, despite their current sucktitude.]

kjhanson
05-11-2010, 12:56 PM
Let the record show that A) the Indians never actually caught the Sox and B) that run they had was epically historic. We're talking unprecedented in the history of baseball. Of course, the Sox could play .900 baseball for an extended period of time, but if you're hanging your hat on repeating something that's happened once in the past 110 years, that's fine, but I think the more prudent move would be to start making preparations for 2011 when you get to start with a fresh slate. This team needs to get a lot better in a lot of places if they think they're going to compete with Minnesota over 162 games.

You're missing the point by a wide, wide margin. The point is, the Sox don't have to play .900 ball, or historically epic ball to catch the Twins. They would have to play .600 ball. No small task, but currently 23% of teams have played .600 or better this year. That won't last of course, but it's an indication that it's not impossible.

Right now the Sox have to make up 1 game every 2.5 weeks. If they win the next two games they have to make up 1 game every 24 days. It's pretty obvious that season is young, variable and completely undecided.

LoveYourSuit
05-11-2010, 12:56 PM
If the Twins go 70-60 (which is conservative), they'll end up 91-71.

For the Sox to go 91-71, they have to go 78-52, which is a .600 winning percentage.

They better get cracking now.

The other factor that should be thrown in there is that the Tigers are in between. The Sox have two teams to jump, not one.

The Tigers will have a say on this division too IMO.

Zakath
05-11-2010, 01:04 PM
The other factor that should be thrown in there is that the Tigers are in between. The Sox have two teams to jump, not one.

The Tigers will have a say on this division too IMO.

That's not as big of a factor now as it will be in August, when you're looking at 40-50 games left vs. 130 games left. Right now, the key is staying within striking distance, which means less than 10 games back.

Having Detroit in the middle isn't as big of a deal as it would be if we were in, say, Houston's shoes where you're 9.5 games out and there are 4 teams in between you and first.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 01:09 PM
You're missing the point by a wide, wide margin. The point is, the Sox don't have to play .900 ball, or historically epic ball to catch the Twins. They would have to play .600 ball. No small task, but currently 23% of teams have played .600 or better this year. That won't last of course, but it's an indication that it's not impossible.

Right now the Sox have to make up 1 game every 2.5 weeks. If they win the next two games they have to make up 1 game every 24 days. It's pretty obvious that season is young, variable and completely undecided.

That still adds up over the course of weeks to these ridiculous splits where we need the Twins to tank and for us to catch fire. Sure it sounds nice when you can say 1 game every 15 games or whatever, but when you add that up, it's still an awful lot.

Hey, if you think the Sox can start making up that ground, that's great. I don't, because I think they suck.

LoveYourSuit
05-11-2010, 01:11 PM
That's not as big of a factor now as it will be in August, when you're looking at 40-50 games left vs. 130 games left. Right now, the key is staying within striking distance, which means less than 10 games back.

Having Detroit in the middle isn't as big of a deal as it would be if we were in, say, Houston's shoes where you're 9.5 games out and there are 4 teams in between you and first.


No doubt it's early.

But based on the poster I was quoting, if we are going to look at games remaining and winning % needed to get to 91 or whatever..... Then yes you have to take the Tigers into consideration because they are 5 games ahead of us in the loss column.

sox1970
05-11-2010, 01:22 PM
No doubt it's early.

But based on the poster I was quoting, if we are going to look at games remaining and winning % needed to get to 91 or whatever..... Then yes you have to take the Tigers into consideration because they are 5 games ahead of us in the loss column.

I left the Tigers out of it just to keep it simple. If/when the Sox get to .500, I'll take a look at the standings again and see what the math looks like with the Tigers too. Until then, I'll just assume the Sox are a bad team and they'll be sellers in July.

GoSox2K3
05-11-2010, 01:30 PM
He needs to be moved down in the order and stay there for a long time. 8 or 9 is where he needs to hit.


For Ozzie being such a genius and reinventing the DH position, I don't understand how this thought of dropping Gordon down in the order has not crossed his mind.

This is typical Ozzie......just stick with a failed idea no matter how bad.

Part of the problem with Ozzie and Kenny's genius plan for the Sox this year is that, with such a weak lineup, they were really counting on a guy who only played 50-something minor league games and has less than a full major league season under his belt to be a cornerstone to our offense.

As far as Quentin goes, he wasn't hitting that great even when he returned last year. I don't expect him to hit under .200, but I'm not totally surprised that he's floundering at the plate. Unfortuately, we have no back up plan. Remember, this team didn't need Jim Thome or Johnny Damon. Those guys aren't looking so bad right now.

WhiteSox1989
05-11-2010, 01:33 PM
I know of a former major league ballplayer who was sent down after some early struggles.

This player ended up getting lucky, and ended up being pretty "just OK" at baseball.

Well, he ended up being a 20-time All Star selection. He won 7 world series rings.

He got lucky, and won 3 MVPs.

He SOMEHOW won a gold glove.

He ended up hitting .298 for a career, with "only" 536 HR.

At the end of his career, he was a 1st Ballot Hall of Fame selection, with 80%+ of the ballots choosing him for induction. He must have bribed the voters, since NO ONE who has ANY baseball ability has EVER been sent down after some initial struggles.






This player was some schmuck, some scrub, some bum named "Mickey Mantle."



Now, if some schmuck who CLEARLY sucked at baseball WAAAAAYYYYY MORE than the golden gods that are Gordan Beckham and Carlos Quentin can LUCK his way into having an "ok" career, I'd agree with you. Don't send down these CLEAR HALL OF FAMERS, because it's never happened before. [Give me a ****ing break. You act like Quentin and Beckham are "entitled" to their jobs, despite their current sucktitude.]
Cool story, brah.

veeter
05-11-2010, 01:56 PM
This is such a misconception. I posted this already but I will post it again:

I don't think anyone is saying Beckham will never make it. But there were also times last year when Beckham struggled. He hit .223 in August. He had a really hot July in which he hit .330, but other than that month he hit .249.It's a misconception Gordon played well last year? He hit .270/14/63. All players go through ups and downs. Unfortunately you can't throw out Gordon's July, 2009.

russ99
05-11-2010, 02:10 PM
This is typical Ozzie......just stick with a failed idea no matter how bad.

Part of the problem with Ozzie and Kenny's genius plan for the Sox this year is that, with such a weak lineup, they were really counting on a guy who only played 50-something minor league games and has less than a full major league season under his belt to be a cornerstone to our offense.

As far as Quentin goes, he wasn't hitting that great even when he returned last year. I don't expect him to hit under .200, but I'm not totally surprised that he's floundering at the plate. Unfortuately, we have no back up plan. Remember, this team didn't need Jim Thome or Johnny Damon. Those guys aren't looking so bad right now.

You can't have it both ways. You can't anoint Quentin a perennial MVP candidate and Beckham an All-Star, then turn around and point the finger at Ozzie as a convenient scapegoat when it doesn't work out, as if he has any better options.

And please show me were we had $8M to pay for Damon. Assuming that the Sox could have signed him has become so tired.

This is what I mean when I say some fans have unrealistic expecations. Some of you assume every player will perform at a top level at all times, and blame Ozzie and Kenny when it doesn't happen, which is the case with every team. Look at Boston, for example. Are Red Sox fans clamoring to fire Francona and Epstien?

And nobody's above a demotion to the minors, especially if the main reason a guy's still on the club despite extreme subpar performance is to sell tickets.

happydude
05-11-2010, 02:12 PM
Anyone who thinks that mid-May is the time to send the likes of Beckham and TCQ to the minors just doesn't understand how major league baseball works. There's no talking to such people.

The subject of the thread is whether or not Beckham should be sent down. Those of us who chose to post here are merely offering our opinions as to whether or not we believe that should happen and the reasons why or why not. Perhaps you know more than the rest of us (and I dont mean that facetiously..all opinions aren't necessarily created equal). If so, it may be more helpful to simply offer your reason why he shouldn't be sent down; something other than thats not "how major league baseball works", which isn't a reason at all but a conclusion. If, in fact, thats not how it works then please tell us why. Unless you're serious about not "talking to such people". :smile:

masloan
05-11-2010, 02:53 PM
It's a misconception Gordon played well last year? He hit .270/14/63. All players go through ups and downs. Unfortunately you can't throw out Gordon's July, 2009.

You said he played well for 4 months. He did not. He had 1 very good month, 1 ok month, and 2 poor months. So yes, it is a misconception that he played well for 4 months last year.

sox1970
05-11-2010, 02:56 PM
You said he played well for 4 months. He did not. He had 1 very good month, 1 ok month, and 2 poor months. So yes, it is a misconception that he played well for 4 months last year.

That's a little misleading. The guy started 2-28. Throw that out, and he hit .286. Bottom line, over the course of over 100 games last year, he had a nice rookie season.

masloan
05-11-2010, 02:59 PM
That's a little misleading. The guy started 2-28. Throw that out, and he hit .286. Bottom line, over the course of over 100 games last year, he had a nice rookie season.

How do you throw out his 2-28 start but not the hot streak he had? That makes no sense. Yes he had a nice rookie season. But to say he played well for 4 months is not accurate.

mzh
05-11-2010, 03:06 PM
How do you throw out his 2-28 start but not the hot streak he had? That makes no sense. Yes he had a nice rookie season. But to say he played well for 4 months is not accurate.
Yes, but a 2-28 at the very beginning is not a regular slump, it's adjusting to Major League pitching for the first time. There's a difference.

sox1970
05-11-2010, 03:06 PM
How do you throw out his 2-28 start but not the hot streak he had? That makes no sense. Yes he had a nice rookie season. But to say he played well for 4 months is not accurate.

I think the point that was made was that he played well over the course of four months---not that he played well for all four months. Which is like most players. Some bad months, some average months, some great months. That's what makes up a season, and an overall average.

masloan
05-11-2010, 03:18 PM
I think the point that was made was that he played well over the course of four months---not that he played well for all four months. Which is like most players. Some bad months, some average months, some great months. That's what makes up a season, and an overall average.

Ok, but if you look at his first 5+ months in the majors, he has really only had 1 very good month. The other 4+ ranged from ok to poor. So for someone to say he has already proven he is ready for the majors is just not right in my opinion.

kjhanson
05-11-2010, 05:21 PM
He had a really hot July in which he hit .330, but other than that month he hit .249.

If you throw out Albert Pujols' April in the 2010 baseball season, he's only a .235 hitter with no home runs. The fact that people think he is still good this year with a .314 average and 7 HRs is such a misconception.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 05:31 PM
If you throw out Albert Pujols' April in the 2010 baseball season, he's only a .235 hitter with no home runs. The fact that people think he is still good this year with a .314 average and 7 HRs is such a misconception.

That is, at best, a ridiculous comparison.

mzh
05-11-2010, 06:02 PM
That is, at best, a ridiculous comparison.
Why? The OP's not comparing Beckham to Pujols, he's using him as an example to make a point.

Daver
05-11-2010, 06:05 PM
This thread is a hoot.

masloan
05-11-2010, 07:16 PM
If you throw out Albert Pujols' April in the 2010 baseball season, he's only a .235 hitter with no home runs. The fact that people think he is still good this year with a .314 average and 7 HRs is such a misconception.

Are you serious? I mean that is the best rebuttal you could come up with? Prior to the 2010 season Albert Pujols had already established himself as one of the BEST HITTERS IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL. Obviously if he has a slump people should not question his abilities.

However, Beckham is a young kid who is just starting his career. He has not established anything yet. We all think he has huge potential. But it would be naive for us to think that he is a sure thing. So far after 5 big league months it is clear he has some work to do. If you cannot see that than you are just not being honest.

MeteorsSox4367
05-11-2010, 07:28 PM
If you throw out Albert Pujols' April in the 2010 baseball season, he's only a .235 hitter with no home runs. The fact that people think he is still good this year with a .314 average and 7 HRs is such a misconception.

Implied teal, perhaps?

Domeshot17
05-11-2010, 08:35 PM
Part of the problem is just the pressure. Beckham has been compared to Evan Logoria and Chase Utley by most Sox Fans. He witnessed an entire offseason before he even had a full season under his belt of people saying he had to carry the team. He is young, and probably will never come close to being the level of Longoria or Utley, and we are expecting him to be the savior. Let the kid play baseball and be what he is, a solid but unspectacular .280 hitter with 15-20 homer power, 30-35 doubles and 75-80 RBI. He is a borderline all star, not a borderline MVP calibur player.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 09:48 PM
Why? The OP's not comparing Beckham to Pujols, he's using him as an example to make a point.

No **** Sherlock. But there's a difference between calling out a rookie who is in his 2nd full professional season and a guy who is arguably one of the best hitters in the history of baseball over the course of what? 8 convenient games.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

palehozenychicty
05-11-2010, 10:02 PM
Part of the problem is just the pressure. Beckham has been compared to Evan Logoria and Chase Utley by most Sox Fans. He witnessed an entire offseason before he even had a full season under his belt of people saying he had to carry the team. He is young, and probably will never come close to being the level of Longoria or Utley, and we are expecting him to be the savior. Let the kid play baseball and be what he is, a solid but unspectacular .280 hitter with 15-20 homer power, 30-35 doubles and 75-80 RBI. He is a borderline all star, not a borderline MVP calibur player.

Thank you. I think he will turn out to be a solid piece, but he's not carrying this team to the title by himself. Nobody can, really, but the fact that Ozzie kept him in the 2 hole this long is preposterous. I really wonder about management these days.

soxinem1
05-11-2010, 10:12 PM
He needs to be moved down in the lineup first.

I agree. Ozzie FINALLY switching him and AJ was long overdue.

GoSox2K3
05-12-2010, 09:39 AM
You can't have it both ways. You can't anoint Quentin a perennial MVP candidate and Beckham an All-Star, then turn around and point the finger at Ozzie as a convenient scapegoat when it doesn't work out, as if he has any better options.

And please show me were we had $8M to pay for Damon. Assuming that the Sox could have signed him has become so tired.

This is what I mean when I say some fans have unrealistic expecations. Some of you assume every player will perform at a top level at all times, and blame Ozzie and Kenny when it doesn't happen, which is the case with every team. Look at Boston, for example. Are Red Sox fans clamoring to fire Francona and Epstien?

And nobody's above a demotion to the minors, especially if the main reason a guy's still on the club despite extreme subpar performance is to sell tickets.

:?: Huh? Who annointed Beckham an All-Star and Quentin an MVP candidate? I didn't.

The problem with your arguments is that you're conveniently choosing to ignore the fact that Ozzie publicly stated over the winter that he was happy with rotating subs at DH and that we didn't need any more offense.

Wake up and accept the fact that this is what Ozzie said and stop crying "scapegoat" every time someone hold Ozzie at least partially accountable for this mess.

asindc
05-12-2010, 09:46 AM
:?: Huh? Who annointed Beckham an All-Star and Quentin an MVP candidate? I didn't.

The problem with your arguments is that you're conveniently choosing to ignore the fact that Ozzie publicly stated over the winter that he was happy with rotating subs at DH and that we didn't need any more offense.

Wake up and accept the fact that this is what Ozzie said and stop crying "scapegoat" every time someone hold Ozzie at least partially accountable for this mess.

He never said that.

Jim Shorts
05-12-2010, 09:46 AM
Right now, I have more faith in Beckham working it out than Quentin. CQ might be the one needing to visit Charlotte to spend some time working things out.

He looks as lost as anyone I've seen

ode to veeck
05-12-2010, 11:48 AM
It's obvious to me that Gordon Beckham is overmatched at the major league level. It's time the White Sox sent him to the minors to work on his swing and regain his confidence.
No player should be handed a job based on his potential. Make the move Kenny. It's overdue.

Welcome to WSI Rawhide but Beckham already proved he can hit the snot out of the best MLB pitching most of last year, even after they moved him up in the order. Dropping him down in the order makes to most sense at this point.

Harry Chappas
05-12-2010, 11:51 AM
Maybe this has been covered, but bouncing Beckham around the infield and putting him in the relatively unfamiliar 2 hole probably wasn't the greatest idea. This, after getting pretty comfortable at third. The Sox seem determined to **** with his head.

Management's handling of Beckham has been idiotic, to put it mildly.

sox1970
05-12-2010, 11:55 AM
Maybe this has been covered, but bouncing Beckham around the infield and putting him in the relatively unfamiliar 2 hole probably wasn't the greatest idea. This, after getting pretty comfortable at third. The Sox seem determined to **** with his head.

Management's handling of Beckham has been idiotic, to put it mildly.

This whole post is horse****.

Beckham is a middle infielder. 2B is where he should be, and after last year, it wasn't unreasonable to think he could handle the 2-hole. I think it's just as likely that he would be struggling even if he was batting 7th or 8th.

Jim Shorts
05-12-2010, 11:55 AM
Maybe this has been covered, but bouncing Beckham around the infield and putting him in the relatively unfamiliar 2 hole probably wasn't the greatest idea. This, after getting pretty comfortable at third. The Sox seem determined to **** with his head.

Management's handling of Beckham has been idiotic, to put it mildly.

It was just a matter of time before Harry bashes management.

The kid is in a slump during his second season.

Want some more gas for your book of matches?

JC456
05-12-2010, 12:23 PM
This whole post is horse****.

Beckham is a middle infielder. 2B is where he should be, and after last year, it wasn't unreasonable to think he could handle the 2-hole. I think it's just as likely that he would be struggling even if he was batting 7th or 8th.
The number two hole is the hardest spot in the line up. And the Sox put the youngest player they have in that position. The fact the Pierre hasn't had a good start did not help him at all.

I truly believe Beckham put pressure on himself because of the #2 spot. knew what was expected and when he didn't get the job done often enough put extended pressure on himself. So yeah management is to blame for his slump.

He should have been in the seventh spot in the lineup.

BTW, I thought he was supposed to be the RBI guy, and the #2 hole is not an RBI spot. So that is very confusing to me.

happydude
05-12-2010, 12:31 PM
Maybe this has been covered, but bouncing Beckham around the infield and putting him in the relatively unfamiliar 2 hole probably wasn't the greatest idea. This, after getting pretty comfortable at third. The Sox seem determined to **** with his head.

Management's handling of Beckham has been idiotic, to put it mildly.

If he needs the most perfect, comfortable conditions to hit north of .200 then I doubt our hope for Beckham to one day be a major, sustained factor in the offense will ever be realized. Conditions are not always ideal for any athlete but they still have to perform. I'm guessing he'll overcome this but if he doesn't then the reason for his failure will be in his mirror; not in the White Sox executive suites or the manager's office.

kjhanson
05-12-2010, 12:38 PM
No **** Sherlock. But there's a difference between calling out a rookie who is in his 2nd full professional season and a guy who is arguably one of the best hitters in the history of baseball over the course of what? 8 convenient games.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

I wasn't comparing Pujols to Beckham. I could have used any person who's ever had a bad month but I used Pujols for name-recognition. I was calling out the absurdity of "throwing out a month" when looking at a player's stats. A more rational approach would have been to throw out the best month and the worst month and evaluate the player on everything else. I'm just trying to protect innocent readers on this board from convenient, incredulous and ultimately invalid manipulation of statistics. I'll put that last part in my signature if you'd like.

hawkjt
05-12-2010, 12:42 PM
Glad ozzie moved Gordo down in the order.
Gordo smoked a basehit his first time up today.
Leave him alone,and he will come out of it.
Same with Carlos.
These guys are hitters, and it did not just go away.

ode to veeck
05-12-2010, 12:44 PM
I think his hitting slump can all be attributed to the use of the nickname Bacon

doublem23
05-12-2010, 12:46 PM
I wasn't comparing Pujols to Beckham. I could have used any person who's ever had a bad month but I used Pujols for name-recognition. I was calling out the absurdity of "throwing out a month" when looking at a player's stats. A more rational approach would have been to throw out the best month and the worst month and evaluate the player on everything else. I'm just trying to protect innocent readers on this board from convenient, incredulous and ultimately invalid manipulation of statistics. I'll put that last part in my signature if you'd like.

There's a difference when you take a month out of a player's stats and you still have 2-3 more months to look at instead of looking at 15 or so games. That's already downright absurd. Adding that you then selected one of the Top 3 hitters in all of baseball makes your comparison absolutely bat**** crazy.

doublem23
05-12-2010, 12:47 PM
I think his hitting slump can all be attributed to the use of the nickname Bacon

We called him Bacon last year while he was hitting, too.

Bacon's a great nickname. That one's never going away.

Jim Shorts
05-12-2010, 12:55 PM
Glad ozzie moved Gordo down in the order.
Gordo smoked a basehit his first time up today.
Leave him alone,and he will come out of it.
Same with Carlos.
These guys are hitters, and it did not just go away.

I kind of disagree with Carlos. In that he should work it out in Charlotte. He looks like its going to take more time

TDog
05-12-2010, 01:06 PM
I think his hitting slump can all be attributed to the use of the nickname Bacon

You don't hear it used much anymore, probably because cute nicknames don't work with disappointing players.

If you look through the Beckham posts since Beckham was called up, as had trouble getting his first hit, as he started playing well offensively (I don't recommend that because life is too short), you will find that I was pretty much alone in my assertion he was brought up too soon. I was pretty much alone in asserting he shouldn't be placed in the No. 2 hole (when it was first suggested by many that he be moved there) and then suggesting he wasn't coming close to being a good No. 2 hitter.

Even during the offseason, posters insisted he was the best handler of a bat on the team. Suggested lineups also had Beckham second.

I'm not saying I told you so. I'm not saying that Beckham should be sent down. I'm glad to seem he was moved down in the order. The reality is the White Sox committed to him at second base, and he is going to have to learn at major league level. No one had any problem with that in March, except for those who insisted he should be playing shortstop.

Beckham isn't going anywhere.

masloan
05-12-2010, 02:47 PM
I wasn't comparing Pujols to Beckham. I could have used any person who's ever had a bad month but I used Pujols for name-recognition. I was calling out the absurdity of "throwing out a month" when looking at a player's stats. A more rational approach would have been to throw out the best month and the worst month and evaluate the player on everything else. I'm just trying to protect innocent readers on this board from convenient, incredulous and ultimately invalid manipulation of statistics. I'll put that last part in my signature if you'd like.

Manipulation of statistics? That has to be a joke. It is not about "throwing out a month". It is about evaluating a player more accurately. In 2006, Chris Shelton hit 10 home runs and hit .326 in April. Over the rest of the season, he hit .256 with 6 home runs. When you look at his final stats you would say he had a decent season... he hit .273 with 16 home runs. However, a closer look tells you his performance after April was poor. He did not make the major league club in 2007 and was in the minors the entire season. One might think "surprising a guy who hit .273 with 16 home runs couldnt even make the same club the following year". A closer look will tell you that he had 1 hot month, and the rest of the year he was way below average.

Harry Chappas
05-12-2010, 04:30 PM
It was just a matter of time before Harry bashes management.

The kid is in a slump during his second season.

Want some more gas for your book of matches?


You've got me confused with someone else. I think there is a "Harry_Chappas."

I don't think I've ever ripped the management on this board and am more pollyanna than black cloud. If anything, I've been a bit too loyal.

Harry Chappas
05-12-2010, 04:39 PM
This whole post is horse****.

Beckham is a middle infielder. 2B is where he should be, and after last year, it wasn't unreasonable to think he could handle the 2-hole. I think it's just as likely that he would be struggling even if he was batting 7th or 8th.

I think the same of yours and it shows how little you understand about the nuances of the game. Hitting in the 2-hole, where Beckham didn't have a lot of success last year (.248), is a lot of pressure since he has to worry more about moving runners over, protecting Pierre, etc. Couple this with a complete change of position, where he has to change his pivot, and his youth, and you have a recipe for a guy that is going to struggle.

I'm sure he'll be fine at 2nd in time, but are you seriously going to tell me that getting moved to his second position in his second year - neither of which he played in college - isn't going to have some impact on him? Really?

I guess we'll see how he fares batting 7th or 8th. We know what he did batting 2nd.

Mohoney
05-12-2010, 05:23 PM
I think the same of yours and it shows how little you understand about the nuances of the game. Hitting in the 2-hole, where Beckham didn't have a lot of success last year (.248), is a lot of pressure since he has to worry more about moving runners over, protecting Pierre, etc. Couple this with a complete change of position, where he has to change his pivot, and his youth, and you have a recipe for a guy that is going to struggle.

I'm sure he'll be fine at 2nd in time, but are you seriously going to tell me that getting moved to his second position in his second year - neither of which he played in college - isn't going to have some impact on him? Really?

I guess we'll see how he fares batting 7th or 8th. We know what he did batting 2nd.

Great post.

I like the idea of just letting AJ hit 2nd, even though he's done nothing to warrant being moved up in the order. Now that Pierre is showing signs of life at the plate, the right move is to put a hitter in the #2 spot that doesn't mind taking a few pitches to give Pierre a chance to steal the base. AJ doesn't seem to mind being behind 0-2 in the count, as his approach doesn't change either way.

Ideally, I would like a right handed hitter hitting #2 to give Pierre a better chance to steal 3rd, but we have to make due with what we have.

Beckham and Quentin need to be kept at #8 and #6 respectively. The talk of sending them down to the minors is ludicrous, because I for one don't want to see Kotsay in RF and Vizquel at 2B every day, and I don't think Kenny Williams does, either.

If Beckham and Quentin start producing, we might be looking at a real dangerous team here. If they don't, we're screwed anyway, so might as well have them playing up here every day seeing major league pitching.

russ99
05-13-2010, 10:12 AM
Great post.

I like the idea of just letting AJ hit 2nd, even though he's done nothing to warrant being moved up in the order. Now that Pierre is showing signs of life at the plate, the right move is to put a hitter in the #2 spot that doesn't mind taking a few pitches to give Pierre a chance to steal the base. AJ doesn't seem to mind being behind 0-2 in the count, as his approach doesn't change either way.

Ideally, I would like a right handed hitter hitting #2 to give Pierre a better chance to steal 3rd, but we have to make due with what we have.

Beckham and Quentin need to be kept at #8 and #6 respectively. The talk of sending them down to the minors is ludicrous, because I for one don't want to see Kotsay in RF and Vizquel at 2B every day, and I don't think Kenny Williams does, either.

If Beckham and Quentin start producing, we might be looking at a real dangerous team here. If they don't, we're screwed anyway, so might as well have them playing up here every day seeing major league pitching.

Do you really think we'd have Kotsay and Vizquel playing every day?

I'd assume that if Beckham and/or Quentin were sent down, a minor leaguer would be brought up who'd be given a chance to play, and the Sox could catch lightning in a bottle with a rookie.

slavko
05-13-2010, 10:41 AM
Beckham's swing looks the least level of any swing I've seen in a while. Not that it was that level last year either. I don't see how he can hit the ball. Is someone supposed to monitor these things?

khan
05-13-2010, 10:42 AM
Do you really think we'd have Kotsay and Vizquel playing every day?

I'd assume that if Beckham and/or Quentin were sent down, a minor leaguer would be brought up who'd be given a chance to play, and the Sox could catch lightning in a bottle with a rookie.
I agree that in an ideal world, the minor leaguer would get the chance to play.

But ask yourself this:

Do you trust Ozzie to make the right decision? Or do you believe that he will choose to go with his buddy Vizquel and the crappy player he's fallen for in Kotsay?


We've seen this movie before, haven't we? Do the names Erstad and Mackowiac and Owens ring a bell?

MetroPD
05-13-2010, 08:01 PM
We've seen this movie before, haven't we? Do the names Erstad and Mackowiac and Owens ring a bell?
Jerry was the best, the 7th Cavalry even named a song after him.....

Mohoney
05-14-2010, 03:35 AM
Do you really think we'd have Kotsay and Vizquel playing every day?

I'd assume that if Beckham and/or Quentin were sent down, a minor leaguer would be brought up who'd be given a chance to play, and the Sox could catch lightning in a bottle with a rookie.

What minor leaguer can play 2B? CJ Retherford? Brent Lillibridge? I would probably actually prefer Omar Vizquel to either of those two.

I don't know, maybe Brent Morel is a possibility at 3B with Mark Teahen moving to 2nd? You're making the infield defense worse, though. Besides, I think Brent Morel's future is better served with him staying in Birmingham.

As for the outfield, if a young player is going to be playing out there every day right now, he's nowhere to be found in this system. Quentin's staying put.purely by default.

khan
05-14-2010, 09:50 AM
What minor leaguer can play 2B? CJ Retherford? Brent Lillibridge? I would probably actually prefer Omar Vizquel to either of those two.

I don't know, maybe Brent Morel is a possibility at 3B with Mark Teahen moving to 2nd? You're making the infield defense worse, though. Besides, I think Brent Morel's future is better served with him staying in Birmingham.
Agreed about Morel. But Beckham has been so ****ty at the bat that does it really matter who they'd bring up? I'm pretty sure Retherford can catch the ball as well as Beckham, and hit <.200, too.

As for the outfield, if a young player is going to be playing out there every day right now, he's nowhere to be found in this system. Quentin's staying put.purely by default.
Disagreed. Quentin sucks as an OFer. He is every bit as immobile as a 36 year old Jermaine Dye. Oh, and I'd bet that Stefan Gartrell or Jordan Danks could swing for the fences @ a 38 degree Target Field, and hit <.200, just as Quentin has. The difference is that both Gartrell and Danks are probably better defenders on their worst day than Quentin is on his best day.

In sum, Beckham and Quentin are doing SO POORLY that it doesn't really matter who would be brought up. They couldn't be much worse than these two.

Mohoney
05-15-2010, 01:58 AM
Agreed about Morel. But Beckham has been so ****ty at the bat that does it really matter who they'd bring up? I'm pretty sure Retherford can catch the ball as well as Beckham, and hit <.200, too.


Disagreed. Quentin sucks as an OFer. He is every bit as immobile as a 36 year old Jermaine Dye. Oh, and I'd bet that Stefan Gartrell or Jordan Danks could swing for the fences @ a 38 degree Target Field, and hit <.200, just as Quentin has. The difference is that both Gartrell and Danks are probably better defenders on their worst day than Quentin is on his best day.

In sum, Beckham and Quentin are doing SO POORLY that it doesn't really matter who would be brought up. They couldn't be much worse than these two.

I just have NO desire to watch non-prospects like CJ Retherford, Stefan Gartrell, or Brent Lillibridge wearing White Sox jerseys this or any other year. I would actually rather see an Omar Vizquel-Jermaine Dye farewell tour, because at least I like those guys.

Jordan Danks is probably the only guy you listed that has a chance to actually be a starter in the majors some day, and he's not hitting at all. I would rather have Quentin not hit up here than Danks not hit up here, because Quentin does have success at hitting major league pitching on his track record.

I would put Jordan Danks in the same boat as Brent Morel. His interests, and the organization's interests, are better served by him staying put.