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mzh
05-09-2010, 04:13 PM
What to do with him? IIRC it was around this time that Dustin Hermanson took over for Shingo, maybe its time to end the Jenks era and promote Santos or Thornton. His value is probably pretty damn low, but honestly now I don't give a **** what we do with him. As far as I'm concerned, he's just done.

kevingrt
05-09-2010, 04:16 PM
So freaking frustrating. Santos time?

sox1970
05-09-2010, 04:16 PM
I'd release him, and never look back.

DaveFeelsRight
05-09-2010, 04:17 PM
remove him from closing, put thornton as the closer and santos at the set-up man

kevingrt
05-09-2010, 04:18 PM
remove him from closing, put thornton as the closer and santos at the set-up man

I like Thornton as the set-up because he is a lefty. Put Santos in the closer's role as he doesn't have an apparent role with the team. Thornton is the set-up guy and you don't really wanna mess with that.

God am I angry.

Thanks for the ring. But it's to to part ways.

Danryan
05-09-2010, 04:19 PM
Thank You Bobby for 05, your services will not be needed.

It's Dankerific
05-09-2010, 04:19 PM
Bobby has entered GOTS to go territory.

soxlady8
05-09-2010, 04:20 PM
like it was said before ... DEMOTE him !!

Danielgosox38
05-09-2010, 04:20 PM
Stick a fork in Jenks. He's done. We probably should have traded him in the off-season, because it's going to be difficult to get much out of him now.

sox1970
05-09-2010, 04:20 PM
I expect Ozzie to say Bobby isn't the closer anymore after this game. I do think that's a no-brainer at this point...even for Ozzie.

bridgeportcopper
05-09-2010, 04:20 PM
You barely beat me to it! This guy has been making me sick for a long time now. I remember I took my daughter to her first ever game last year, a beautiful Sunday afternoon with a wonderfully pitched game by Buehrle, Sox building some momentum for a sweep. Jenks came in I believe with a 2-0 lead and boom! 3 batters later Sox trail 3-2. This guy is very hittable of late, and teams are jumping on him. Now he has put a damper on our family's mother's day as we were all watching the game. My mother and my daughter deserve better than this and demand a change as Jenks is ruining our family's Sox experiences.

Sockinchisox
05-09-2010, 04:20 PM
At the very least it's time to remove him as closer.

DaveFeelsRight
05-09-2010, 04:23 PM
I ****ing hate Teahen and Jenks, he's the only ****ing closer who has yet to pitch with no one on base. Every ****ing outing someones on base. The fat ****er is useless.i didn't know teahen had a hand in giving up the 3-run homer

canOcorn
05-09-2010, 04:23 PM
I expect Ozzie to say Bobby isn't the closer anymore after this game. I do think that's a no-brainer at this point...even for Ozzie.

Nothing is a "no-brainer" for Ozzie.

:fireozzie:

Danielgosox38
05-09-2010, 04:25 PM
Nothing is a "no-brainer" for Ozzie.

:fireozzie:


Amen. Ozzie is a moron.

thomas35forever
05-09-2010, 04:26 PM
Eat the contract and release him outright. All of his value is gone and I don't trust him out on the mound in any situation anymore. In fact, today's game might be the PERFECT example of why 2005 is officially in the distant past.

sullythered
05-09-2010, 04:26 PM
My question is, "why is he done?" He's throwing harder than he has in a couple years. What is causing his loss in effectiveness, because it certainly isn't velocity.

kevingrt
05-09-2010, 04:27 PM
My question is, "why is he done?" He's throwing harder than he has in a couple years. What is causing his loss in effectiveness, because it certainly isn't velocity.

His velocity is at early 2005 levels. He just isn't getting guys out. It seems like so many closers go through this. Relief pitching is such a revolving door in baseball.

thomas35forever
05-09-2010, 04:28 PM
My question is, "why is he done?" He's throwing harder than he has in a couple years. What is causing his loss in effectiveness, because it certainly isn't velocity.
We're also trying to dig ourselves out of a hole. Keep Jenks around and we won't be able to get out of it at all. I'm sorry, but blowing close games in the ninth inning is not what this team needs right now.

sullythered
05-09-2010, 04:29 PM
We're also trying to dig ourselves out of a hole. Keep Jenks around and we won't be able to get out of it at all. I'm sorry, but blowing close games in the ninth inning is not what this team needs right now.

Oh, I'm not arguing against moving him out of the closers role for a while. I just am curious as to what is causing the problem.

MinnySoxFan
05-09-2010, 04:30 PM
I'm all for making Sergio Santos our closer.

thomas35forever
05-09-2010, 04:32 PM
Oh, I'm not arguing against moving him out of the closers role for a while. I just am curious as to what is causing the problem.
I'd rather move him out the role permanently. And off this team if that's possible.

october23sp
05-09-2010, 04:38 PM
Release him and lose money, not games.

guillensdisciple
05-09-2010, 04:39 PM
I'd release him, and never look back.

like it was said before ... DEMOTE him !!

This.

If the White Sox think about loyalty and all that bull**** in making this decision then they should just tell us so we don't have to give a **** the same way they don't give a ****.

spongyfungy
05-09-2010, 04:39 PM
Bobby needs to be dropped out of the closer role, period

mzh
05-09-2010, 04:40 PM
I think the question is no longer "how much longer to we give Bobby", it is now "Thornton or Santos?".

Frater Perdurabo
05-09-2010, 04:40 PM
Jenks is done. End of story. It's too bad, but life isn't fair. He's had a nice little career, won a World Series ring, set a record and made more money than most of us will make in a lifetime. But it's time to put him out to pasture.

Frater Perdurabo
05-09-2010, 04:41 PM
Oh, and I would go with "closer by committee," depending on matchups. Putz, Thornton and Santos would make up that committee.

sullythered
05-09-2010, 04:43 PM
I think the question is no longer "how much longer to we give Bobby", it is now "Thornton or Santos?".

I really think Santos has what it takes to be a damn good closer. I love Thornton, but one pitch lefties, no matter how dominant, are too scary as closers.

LongLiveFisk
05-09-2010, 04:43 PM
I'm getting flashbacks of Bobby Thigpen when he would come in and get absolutely lit up. But they just kept throwing him back out there because he was Bobby Thigpen. Same with Billy Koch, although I can't honestly say I ever felt good about him coming in the game. I don't know if Bobby has lost his confidence or what, but what do you do, keep running him back out there ala Thigpen? Guess he has to earn that big paycheck though....

Boondock Saint
05-09-2010, 04:44 PM
Oh, and I would go with "closer by committee," depending on matchups. Putz, Thornton and Santos would make up that committee.

I'd give it to Putz right now. He's been a successful closer before, and we know he can do it again. We've seen Thornton struggle as a closer, and we have no idea if Santos can do it. Now isn't the time to find that out when we need to be winning games.

mzh
05-09-2010, 04:45 PM
Thought I'd separate this from my other thread. Who's your vote and why?

Frater Perdurabo
05-09-2010, 04:45 PM
I'd give it to Putz right now. He's been a successful closer before, and we know he can do it again. We've seen Thornton struggle as a closer, and we have no idea if Santos can do it. Now isn't the time to find that out when we need to be winning games.

Yeah, but if Thornton hasn't yet been used, and the Sox have the lead and two lefties are due up in the ninth inning, I go with Thornton.

stevied23
05-09-2010, 04:45 PM
I don't know if I would trust the guy with a 5 run lead. It's not as though I expect him to come in and face 3 guys and get those guys out everytime. However, he always gets himself in a pickle when he's out there. He's had chances to get out of this long funk and he just hasn't. It's time to move forward and start utilizing the talent in the bullpen they do have.

Sockinchisox
05-09-2010, 04:46 PM
Sounds like closer by committee.

thomas35forever
05-09-2010, 04:47 PM
I voted for the churro vendor because my choice is not listed. I know Putz is a former closer, but so far, Linebrink appears to be our best reliever and Thornton has shown in the past that he's just not fit to close out games. Vote for Scott!

Crede24Thome25
05-09-2010, 04:47 PM
I'd give it to Putz right now. He's been a successful closer before, and we know he can do it again. We've seen Thornton struggle as a closer, and we have no idea if Santos can do it. Now isn't the time to find that out when we need to be winning games.
I think Santos should get the first shot at it.

MikeKreevich
05-09-2010, 04:48 PM
Bobby Jenks, if you read this, it's time to shave off that stupid looking hillbilly beard. I hope no one finds the term hillbilly offensive, not.

RANDY WILES
05-09-2010, 04:48 PM
Jenks is done. End of story. It's too bad, but life isn't fair. He's had a nice little career, won a World Series ring, set a record and made more money than most of us will make in a lifetime. But it's time to put him out to pasture.


Well stated. I'd also get rid of Linebrink for gross incompetence and Alexi---in my opinion he's not a winner and quite honestly don't think baseball is #1 priority.

soxinem1
05-09-2010, 04:48 PM
When you have a lead to protect that calls for a save every ten days, does it matter?

This whole team is mis-firing big time. It is a true, team effort.

Tragg
05-09-2010, 04:48 PM
I voted for Committee because the most important thing over the next 2 months is to dress as many of these pitchers up as nice as possible and trade them. Closing is secondary.

If I had to pick one, I'd pick Santos.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-09-2010, 04:49 PM
Santos, since no one else on the team has shown they can do it.

Thornton is 9/28 in his Sox career, so "no thanks" to him. Plus, he's too valuable as a setup guy.

Putz may still be feeling the effects of his surgery, and I'm not too confident that he can go back to being the pitcher he was in Seattle.

Linebrink, Pena, and Williams? Uh, PASS.

I'm fine with giving Santos a shot at closing...you never know what you got until you try it, right?

spongyfungy
05-09-2010, 04:50 PM
I believe it takes a certain mental makeup to be a closer. They've been treating Santos with kid gloves and he's been succeeding. I'd rather not throw him into the fire like that

Putz has closing experience and he's had success in that role.

7-Santos
8-Thornton
9-Putz

RANDY WILES
05-09-2010, 04:50 PM
"You're not getting it. I really don't care what you think."


God I love this board---like being home in Chicago.

Frankfan4life
05-09-2010, 04:54 PM
I'm getting flashbacks of Bobby Thigpen when he would come in and get absolutely lit up. But they just kept throwing him back out there because he was Bobby Thigpen. Same with Billy Koch, although I can't honestly say I ever felt good about him coming in the game. I don't know if Bobby has lost his confidence or what, but what do you do, keep running him back out there ala Thigpen? Guess he has to earn that big paycheck though....Wow, did you bring back some bad memories. I felt so sorry for Thigpen. He was my hero and it was so sad to see that happen to him.

stevied23
05-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Jenks always makes it very interesting when he's out there, and when I say interesting, I don't mean that in a good way whatsoever.

asindc
05-09-2010, 05:02 PM
Jenks is done. End of story. It's too bad, but life isn't fair. He's had a nice little career, won a World Series ring, set a record and made more money than most of us will make in a lifetime. But it's time to put him out to pasture.

I agree. As many veteran WSIers might have observed, I tend to be quite optimistic about our Sox, team and individual players for the most part. Jenks, however, just doesn't have it right now and I wonder if he will ever get it back. Regardless, I don't want to see him try to get it back with the Sox at this point. Keep him around for mop-up duty at most if you must, but no more crucial situations. He can't handle it now.

Rohan
05-09-2010, 05:04 PM
Nothing is a "no-brainer" for Ozzie.

:fireozzie:

:rolleyes:
How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Thornton is absolutely the guy to take over. If need be, he can do 4-5 out saves as well. I think that Jenks can still share the set up role with Putz.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-09-2010, 05:07 PM
:rolleyes:
How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Thornton is absolutely the guy to take over. If need be, he can do 4-5 out saves as well. I think that Jenks can still share the set up role with Putz.

You really want someone who is 9/28 in save opportunities while on the Sox to take over the closer's role?

thomas35forever
05-09-2010, 05:16 PM
You really want someone who is 9/28 in save opportunities while on the Sox to take over the closer's role?
Exactly. I've seen him do poorly in the closer's role before. I don't need to see him in it again.

Rockabilly
05-09-2010, 05:18 PM
Love to see Santos take over the closer role next season

asindc
05-09-2010, 05:25 PM
Closer by committee.

NLaloosh
05-09-2010, 05:27 PM
Does it matter ? If they had Rivera and any other 3 closers in baseball on this team they still wouldn't catch Minnesota.

This team would have to raise their level of play to stink.

WSox597
05-09-2010, 05:35 PM
Bobby Jenks, if you read this, it's time to shave off that stupid looking hillbilly beard. I hope no one finds the term hillbilly offensive, not.

I'd like to see that stupid looking billy goat nonsense go, too. My wife has volunteered her services, she said she'd love to cut that thing off. LOL

It won't make him a better pitcher, but it will help when he applies for work in his next field of endeavor. He's probably done as a closer in baseball.

Oh well, it happens to many closers and other relievers. Only a small number have been effective for their entire careers. Obviously, Bobby Jenks won't be one of them.

Today, you just KNEW he was going to give up that home run. You just knew it, before it happened. I have no confidence in his ability.

I wish him well in his next line of work, and thanks for the WS in 2005. That was awesome.

I forgot, I voted for J. J. PUtz. He's been a closer before, he has to be better than what Jenks has been bringing to the mound.

I hope.

MarkZ35
05-09-2010, 05:39 PM
Start giving some chances to Santos. Ease him into it. Thornton is more useful in the setup role and Putz has yet to prove he can be trustworthy.

sox1970
05-09-2010, 06:02 PM
Start giving some chances to Santos. Ease him into it. Thornton is more useful in the setup role and Putz has yet to prove he can be trustworthy.

I agree about Santos, but forget about easing him into anything. If it's a save situation, I want him in there.

TDog
05-09-2010, 06:03 PM
I ****ing hate Teahen and Jenks, he's the only ****ing closer who has yet to pitch with no one on base. Every ****ing outing someones on base. The fat ****er is useless.

I don't know where you got this. Jenks went three-up, three down in a non-save situation Wednesday night against the Royals. He had a save this year where the only base runner got on because of an error. I don't remember if the error was committed by Teahen, which could explain why some of the profanities in your post were directed by someone who I didn't even notice playing today.

You could move Santos into the closer role, and he would probably get some saves before blowing a couple. You could put Thornton into the closing role, but he seems to have bad outings on the day after pitching. And people say it wasn't his fault he blew two save opportunities and lost a game he entered with a tie score in the eighth because he was misused by the manager. I don't know how well he is pitching this year when he comes in the day after warming up.

There is Putz, but he hasn't distinguished himself out of the White Sox bullpen so far. Pena is probably out of the question. Then there are Linebrink and Williams, who, I would assume, no one wants in the closer role.

Jenks hasn't done as badly as Keith Foulke did when Jerry Manuel permanently removed him from the closer's role. The Sox traded him the next offseason to the A's for a real closer who got 44 saves while Foulke was struggling. A couple of seasons later, Foulke got the last out in the World Series for the Red Sox. And the next season, Bobby Jenks got the last out in the World Series for the White Sox in a game where Brad Lidge game up the big hit to leave a bad taste in his mouth that apparently went away when he was dominant three seasons later when he ended up getting the last out in the World Series for the Phillies.

Jenks also isn't nearly as bad as Roberto Hernandez was in June 1994 when looking at his blown save total doesn't do justice to how bad he pitched because the five-run lead he blew against the Twins was in a non-save situation. But the fact that his ERA of 11.17 wasn't even double his ERA for May should have been an indication that that White Sox weren't going to win anything in 1994. People should have rejoiced when they traded him for Keith Foulke.

The problem isn't Jenks as much as it is the closer mentality. If you have Dennis Eckersley or Goose Gossage (in his prime) there was reason to designate a closer. But for most teams, sending out the same pitcher time after time in save opportunities will be no more successful, probably even less successful, than using the available reliever who matches up best against he hitters he is going to face.

Peter Gammons was pointing out during Bobby Thigpen's record-setting year that teams spreading around the saves were converting saves at the same rate the White Sox were. The thing is, none of Bobby Thigpen's 57 saves in 1990 stand out as much as the two-out three run home run he gave up to Lee Stevens in a 3-2 loss in late August to push the White Sox five games out of first. That was his seventh blown save of the season.

If you don't have Dennis Eckersley in your bullpen, there is no reason to manage like you do.

soxfanreggie
05-09-2010, 08:14 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5175927

ESPN's front-page link to an article on the situation. I think you'll see a few days off for Bobby and then another shot. I do see him pitching in the Majors again this season as I could see several clubs with interest if we don't want him.

No reliever is dominant forever, and Bobby has given us several good seasons. Names like Politte, Hermanson, Cotts, and Takatsu have all done well at times with us in the past, but there is a reason not a one of them is still there. If Bobby did follow the same path as Cliff or Dustin, he would be out of baseball soon after being released or DFA'd.

Dibbs
05-09-2010, 08:18 PM
I say Thornton, but I completely understand the argument to have Santos close. I would have no problem with that. Putz? No thanks.

WhiteSox1989
05-09-2010, 08:19 PM
Start giving some chances to Santos. Ease him into it. Thornton is more useful in the setup role and Putz has yet to prove he can be trustworthy.
Agree with this.

Though I would like to see how Thornton does as a closer, and how Santos does in the set-up role.

Noneck
05-09-2010, 08:25 PM
I say hide Jenks for awhile, put him only in situations that he can possibly excel. Hope for him to show something in these situations. Then in July hope to find a desperate sucker so you can unload him.

As to who should close now, To me it doesn't really matter.

mzh
05-09-2010, 08:28 PM
I say hide Jenks for awhile, put him only in situations that he can possibly excel. Hope for him to show something in these situations. Then in July hope to find a desperate sucker so you can unload him.

As to who should close now, To me it doesn't really matter.
Agreed, put him in a bit of garbage time, get his ERA down, and unload him. End of story.

Huisj
05-09-2010, 08:36 PM
I wonder if Jenks would have any success going back to being more like the pitcher he was when he came up. He threw a lot of nasty downward-breaking curveballs back then. It seems that since then, he's thrown fewer and fewer of those each year, and gets slider/cutter happy too often instead now. Is the curve just a thing of the past that'll never come back? Too hard on the arm? Too hard to control? Did he simply lose it?

asindc
05-09-2010, 08:38 PM
I wonder if Jenks would have any success going back to being more like the pitcher he was when he came up. He threw a lot of nasty downward-breaking curveballs back then. It seems that since then, he's thrown fewer and fewer of those each year, and gets slider/cutter happy too often instead now. Is the curve just a thing of the past that'll never come back? Too hard on the arm? Too hard to control? Did he simply lose it?

Been wondering that myself the past two+ seasons.

hi im skot
05-09-2010, 08:41 PM
I have to wonder if there's something going on off the field. Obviously Jenks has gone through some rocky situations; maybe he's having issues at home or something.

Something ain't right.

Harry Chappas
05-09-2010, 08:52 PM
Been wondering that myself the past two+ seasons.

First of all, I have to chuckle that Santos is leading the votes when I dared suggest that he might be our closer of the future a few weeks back and was shot down by the resident experts. We are a fickle bunch, aren't we?

As for Big Bad Bobby Jenks - emphasis on "Bad" - he paired his nasty curve with a fastball that flirted with 100. It seems like the biting curve disappeared with his fastball. Now he seems to rely on cutters which don't move a ton and a good-but-not-great fastball. He could probably still be successful but his location is awful and has been for a while.

I don't advocate launching him, but I would relegate him to mop up duty and non-save situations until he gets his act together. In the meantime, I'd like to see Santos get a shot. He seems to have the mental makeup of a closer and his stuff is filthy. He also has shown he can throw strikes consistently.

JB98
05-09-2010, 08:53 PM
The first thing I'd do with Bobby is junk that windup.

LongLiveFisk
05-09-2010, 08:59 PM
Well here's a question to all the people who have followed baseball longer than I have: what did teams do before the save was fashionable? I am guessing they kept the starter in a real long time and didn't yank him unless it was absolutely necessary. I always got the impression that maybe one relief guy came in but it was nothing then like it is today when you can have a guy come in to face just one batter. I sometimes think managers try to overanalyze these situations and force the save situation. It's very often I would see Jenks, Koch, Foulke, Thigpen, etc come in when it clearly didn't even seem warranted.

DonnieDarko
05-09-2010, 09:47 PM
Okay, who the heck thinks that Santos is ready for the Closers role so early in his career? For the love of God, we've got Putz and Thornton to try out before him.

TDog
05-09-2010, 09:49 PM
Well here's a question to all the people who have followed baseball longer than I have: what did teams do before the save was fashionable? I am guessing they kept the starter in a real long time and didn't yank him unless it was absolutely necessary. I always got the impression that maybe one relief guy came in but it was nothing then like it is today when you can have a guy come in to face just one batter. I sometimes think managers try to overanalyze these situations and force the save situation. It's very often I would see Jenks, Koch, Foulke, Thigpen, etc come in when it clearly didn't even seem warranted.

It really depended on how good your bullpen was.

The save rule was adopted in 1968, but saves were awarded to pitchers who finished wins in relief when they weren't awarded wins, regardless of the situation present when they entered the game. Statisticians have gone in and awarded saves under those standards prior to 1968. The current save-situation standards stand as an arbitrary compromise to people complaining that pitchers coming in with 10-run leads should be awarded with saves.

Before the save became an official statistic that meant something to some people, there were a lot more complete games, of course. But teams with solid bullpens had several pitchers they used to close. The 1964 White Sox had a very good bullpen. Five pitchers picked up unofficial saves, but Hoyt Wilhelm had 27 and Eddie Fisher was second with nine, ahead of Don Mossi with seven. But Wilhelm wasn't just a one-inning closer. He often pitched the last two or three innings. Sometimes he came into games just to get out of trouble. Meanwhile the White Sox had a four-man starting rotation that nearly averaged 10 complete games per -- with two spot starters also pitching complete games.

The 1972 White Sox had five pitchers earning saves. That bullpen wasn't 1964-caliber, but it was very good. Terry Forster was the primary closer, over Rich Gossage, Forster pitched 100 innings and only appeared in 62 games.

The 1959 Dodgers had five pitchers earning saves, and none of them finished with double-digits. Clem Labine led the team with nine. In the World Series, the star reliever for the Dodgers was Larry Sherry. He had only three saves during the season, but Walt Alston went with the hot hand, and Sherry picked up two relief wins and two saves against the White Sox.

Sherry, however, never recorded an official major league save.

Honestly, I would have no problem abolishing the save rule because it seems to be determining how managers manage and how pitchers pitch.

hi im skot
05-09-2010, 09:49 PM
Okay, who the heck thinks that Santos is ready for the Closers role so early in his career? For the love of God, we've got Putz and Thornton to try out before him.

You only have to look back a few years; Jenks was pretty good in his rookie campaign.

LongLiveFisk
05-09-2010, 09:59 PM
Honestly, I would have no problem abolishing the save rule because it seems to be determining how managers manage and how pitchers pitch.

Thanks for your feedback on this and this line I am quoting is really the point I was driving at. It seems to be a way to get a guy's save numbers up in many cases rather than managing from a purely instinctive, common-sense mentality.

Lip Man 1
05-09-2010, 09:59 PM
Fisk:

Back in the day, starting pitchers were expected to get the ball and go nine innings or more. Billy Pierce pitched 16 innings one night in Baltimore and got nothing as the game was suspended in a tie.

The bullpen used to be where guys who couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher anymore went to (not literally) die.

When I spoke with Goose Gossage he said when Chuck Tanner and Roland Hemond talked to him about moving to the bullpen he didn't want to do it, he thought that was where guys who couldn't pitch anymore went and this was in 1971.

Lip

LongLiveFisk
05-09-2010, 10:10 PM
Thanks, Lip....it's apparent that the art of pitching has come a long way since Cy Young would pitch both games of a doubleheader!

dickallen15
05-09-2010, 10:15 PM
How come when a hitter with the same status as Jenks has had as a pitcher fails, ultimately Greg Walker gets a lot of blame, but Don Cooper never gets mentioned as the reason for Jenks' struggles?

Boondock Saint
05-09-2010, 10:18 PM
How come when a hitter with the same status as Jenks has had as a pitcher fails, ultimately Greg Walker gets a lot of blame, but Don Cooper never gets mentioned as the reason for Jenks' struggles?

Bobby has pitched under Coop for years with a lot of success. You can't blame Coop for this one month unless you're willing to credit him for Bobby's previous four years of success.

TDog
05-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Fisk:

Back in the day, starting pitchers were expected to get the ball and go nine innings or more. Billy Pierce pitched 16 innings one night in Baltimore and got nothing as the game was suspended in a tie.

The bullpen used to be where guys who couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher anymore went to (not literally) die.

When I spoke with Goose Gossage he said when Chuck Tanner and Roland Hemond talked to him about moving to the bullpen he didn't want to do it, he thought that was where guys who couldn't pitch anymore went and this was in 1971.

Lip

Hoyt Wilhelm was pretty much always a reliever, although he did start some games after he turned 35. He even pitched a no-hitter before going back to the bullpen. And his protege Wilbur Wood was a workhorse relief specialist before he became a 350-inning-plus starter. But pitchers didn't come up through the minors expecting only to pitch an inning a day, and starters didn't come up expecting to be able to pitch just five or six innings to get a win.

Brian26
05-09-2010, 10:25 PM
Thanks, Lip....it's apparent that the art of pitching has come a long way since Cy Young would pitch both games of a doubleheader!

Was just reading Mark Gonzalez' book today... Ed Walsh threw 464 innings one year for the Sox. :o:

pudge
05-10-2010, 12:52 AM
Fisk:

Back in the day, starting pitchers were expected to get the ball and go nine innings or more. Billy Pierce pitched 16 innings one night in Baltimore and got nothing as the game was suspended in a tie.

The bullpen used to be where guys who couldn't cut it as a starting pitcher anymore went to (not literally) die.

When I spoke with Goose Gossage he said when Chuck Tanner and Roland Hemond talked to him about moving to the bullpen he didn't want to do it, he thought that was where guys who couldn't pitch anymore went and this was in 1971.

Lip

I can understand in today's age why this wouldn't be feasible, but I hate the concept of one guy being "the closer" unless he is so insane you wouldn't ever go to anyone else. In our case this year, we don't have that guy, so why even have one "closer"? Go with matchups, streaks, guts, whatever you want, whatever makes the most sense at the time. (Not that I'd trust Ozzie THAT.)

masloan
05-10-2010, 04:38 AM
How come when a hitter with the same status as Jenks has had as a pitcher fails, ultimately Greg Walker gets a lot of blame, but Don Cooper never gets mentioned as the reason for Jenks' struggles?

Because don't you know that hitting coaches are more important than pitching coaches!!

akingamongstmen
05-10-2010, 07:34 AM
I'm not a pitching coach, but I've noticed a few things:

1) The full windup isn't helping Bobby at all. There is no noticeable improvement in location or velocity, so I don't understand the strategy. Pitching is all about rhythm, and it may be throwing him off.

2) The cutter...doesn't "cut." If anything, Bobby struggles with location even more when he tries to throw it. Give it up.

3) The curveball. This was Bobby's out pitch and now it's all but gone. AJ will block balls in the dirt, and Bobby needs to take advantage of this.

4) The fastball. Straight (as always) but velocity is back up.

Bobby appears to be in his head (so to speak). He needs to block out all of the extra shenanigans and go back to the two pitches that got him to where he is. Throw a plus fastball (for strikes) and a good curveball and you can get hitters out. Maybe a few confidence-building mop-up sessions will help him regain his focus?

Paulwny
05-10-2010, 12:56 PM
My question is, "why is he done?" He's throwing harder than he has in a couple years. What is causing his loss in effectiveness, because it certainly isn't velocity.


If you can't throw another pitch for a strike eventually batters will adjust to the fast ball, ask Billy Koch.

MetroPD
05-10-2010, 02:12 PM
If you can't throw another pitch for a strike eventually batters will adjust to the fast ball, ask Billy Koch.
When we had Billy Koch his arm was all but gone, he would barely break 93mph on a good day.


We may as well make a call to Japan and call back *GONG*..........Shingo Takatsu.

BadBobbyJenks
05-10-2010, 02:52 PM
Did they remove him from closing? I have been out of the loop since Thursday.

asindc
05-10-2010, 03:21 PM
Did they remove him from closing? I have been out of the loop since Thursday.

No, but you might soon have to change your screen name to PetulentMattThornton.

Noneck
05-10-2010, 03:27 PM
No, but you might soon have to change your screen name to PetulentMattThornton.

Not really. BADBobbyJenks is quite fitting these days.

LongLiveFisk
05-10-2010, 04:44 PM
From comments I read from Ozzie today, I am thinking he is preferring the "closer by committee" option about now. He has not closed the door on Jenks but suffice it to say, he is not too happy right now either.

DumpJerry
05-10-2010, 04:56 PM
There are questions in this thread about the old days when starters typically went deeper into games and there were many, many more complete games from the starting crew.

The main reason why we don't have double digit number of CGs from starters any more is that in 1969, MLB lowered the height of the Pitching Mound. This meant pitchers got away from a high percentage number of fastballs and started throwing more breaking stuff which is harder on the arm.

The lowering of the Mound made the Bullpen a more important component of a pitching staff. The problem was, and still is, that really good pitchers are made into starters, the mediocre ones were relegated to the Bullpen. Sure, every now and then you get a Bullpen pitcher who is pretty year for several years, but nobody plays Little League thinking "I'm going to be the guy who comes in during Junk Time for the White Sox when I grow up." Everyone wants to be a 20 game winner.

konerko 14
05-10-2010, 05:00 PM
Thorntan, I don't think they have seen enough of Santos yet

TDog
05-10-2010, 05:08 PM
From comments I read from Ozzie today, I am thinking he is preferring the "closer by committee" option about now. He has not closed the door on Jenks but suffice it to say, he is not too happy right now either.

Already some people complain that he goes too long with his starters, but I'm sure Guillen would like to get some complete games out of the staff.

There is nothing wrong with "closer by committee" as long as the pitchers who end up closing are equal to the task. And if you have Thornton closing, you probably won't often be pitching him on consecutive days, so realistically, he wouldn't be closing games except as part of a committee. Against the Twins, Thornton will be tested because they are bound to need him against the tough left-handed hitters. Saving him for the ninth might be unrealistic. There might be some wringing of hands over Williams coming into games.

A pitcher is different from a hitter, of course. You may leave a hitter in the lineup to work his way out of a slump. You can't ride though the slump of a closer the same way.

soltrain21
05-10-2010, 05:08 PM
Thorntan, I don't think they have seen enough of Santos yet

Many successful closers get thrown into the role super early and quick. Like Bobby Jenks.

DumpJerry
05-10-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm disappointed that my choice (Churros Vendor) is not doing better in the poll.:(:

Crestani
05-10-2010, 05:26 PM
I'm disappointed that my choice (Churros Vendor) is not doing better in the poll.:(:


I saw him pitch in the Mexican league and he can really bring it..!!:rolleyes:

DumpJerry
05-10-2010, 05:35 PM
I saw him pitch in the Mexican league and he can really bring it..!!:rolleyes:
He's got a really sweet curve!

slavko
05-10-2010, 06:58 PM
Peter Gammons was pointing out during Bobby Thigpen's record-setting year that teams spreading around the saves were converting saves at the same rate the White Sox were. The thing is, none of Bobby Thigpen's 57 saves in 1990 stand out as much as the two-out three run home run he gave up to Lee Stevens in a 3-2 loss in late August to push the White Sox five games out of first. That was his seventh blown save of the season.


So you can't forget that one after 20 years either. Sox fans, us.

As far as Coop's halo effect goes, does anyone think that Bobby managed to change from a fastball/curveball pitcher to what he is now on his own? Location is the problem, same as Liney, same as Putz. They center the ball and get hit. Stuff's not the problem for any of them.

LongLiveFisk
05-10-2010, 07:06 PM
I'm disappointed that my choice (Churros Vendor) is not doing better in the poll.:(:

Well I just helped you out. I had been meaning to vote, so thanks for reminding me. :tongue:

GoGoCrede
05-10-2010, 07:17 PM
I'm disappointed that my choice (Churros Vendor) is not doing better in the poll.:(:

I would have voted for him, but the last churro I bought at the Cell was cold! :mad:

hi im skot
05-10-2010, 10:49 PM
Bobby sounded like he was on the verge of tears in postgame interviews.

Tough to not feel bad for the guy; I'd love to see him rebound, but I'm not confident (and it's safe to say he isn't, either).

BadBobbyJenks
05-12-2010, 05:43 AM
None of the above.

Huisj
05-12-2010, 09:56 AM
Why am I envisioning this turning into a Brad Lidge '09 type situation? He'll get 30 saves but take things to the edge of disaster in lots of them, and he'll blow a few here and there and end up with a high ERA. The only difference is that he won't be pitching for a team headed to the World Series.

GoSox2K3
05-12-2010, 10:11 AM
I expect Ozzie to say Bobby isn't the closer anymore after this game. I do think that's a no-brainer at this point...even for Ozzie.

No, this is Ozzie we're talking about. He'll stick with Bobby weeks after a change needs to be made.....and then he'll make a change when it's too late and we're totally buried in 3rd place.

Lillian
05-12-2010, 12:21 PM
According to Bobby and Ozzie in this article, "it was just one game" and he'll be fine:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100511&content_id=9969662&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I'm sorry, it's been quite a while, and I don't share their confidence. Even if you throw out his miserable performance on Sunday, his numbers look pretty bad.
Moreover, when he is successful, he's far from dominating.
I personally want to see a closer who can simply dominate hitters for one inning.

Depending upon the defense and luck is not a good strategy for the closer. Bobby's stuff is consistently getting hit hard. Unless, he starts throwing some better pitches, and missing some bats, he won't be consistently successful.

I understand that Ozzie doesn't want to damage his confidence, but I hope that he'll be honest with himself. It's not just location, it's the lack of stuff. Those pitches just look far too hittable.

We've all been watching this for a long time. When was the last time you had a good feeling about Jenks entering a game? I can't remember having that feeling since perhaps the first part of last season.

ode to veeck
05-12-2010, 12:46 PM
where's the option to keep Bobby "bouncing those curve balls into da plate" as the closer

ewokpelts
05-12-2010, 12:49 PM
i love it when the sox waste 8 million dollars on a washed up closer