PDA

View Full Version : Sox looking for offense


JermaineDye05
05-06-2010, 04:34 PM
No surprises here.

Link (http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/statuses/13509157042)

So far, two of the more active teams in early trade talks -- the White Sox and Mariners. Both teams are calling around looking for offense.

Per Buster Olney.

ilsox7
05-06-2010, 04:42 PM
I've got a source inside the organization (cannot say who for obvious reasons) that said the first place the Sox looked was on the WSI thread about who can hit MLB pitching. Apparently a few people got PMs about joining the team.

Rockabilly
05-06-2010, 04:43 PM
We should have gotten more offense this past off season. Now we're 7 games behind the Twins..

TDog
05-06-2010, 05:03 PM
We should have gotten more offense this past off season. Now we're 7 games behind the Twins..

Most of the experts thought the Mariners got enough offense in the offseason, and they are looking for offense as well.

The White Sox probably wouldn't be looking for offense, though, if their pitching was as good as the experts, and White Sox fans, believed it would be.

Rocky Soprano
05-06-2010, 05:05 PM
We should have gotten more offense this past off season. Now we're 7 games behind the Twins..

Yeah, the year is over already! 7 games in May is impossible to make up this late in the baseball season! Why is Kenny even bothering?!

Dibbs
05-06-2010, 06:13 PM
Wow, I knew all offseason that we needed more offense. Kenny just figures this out on May 6th? It really makes you question the people running the organization.

g0g0
05-06-2010, 06:14 PM
I can't wait for Milton B. to join us.

LoveYourSuit
05-06-2010, 06:34 PM
Yeah, the year is over already! 7 games in May is impossible to make up this late in the baseball season! Why is Kenny even bothering?!

:rolleyes:

The poster was saying that had management realized they were very thin on offense going into the season, perhaps we wouldn't be looking up at 7 games from the Twins this early.

I see nothing wrong with his post.

Besides, 7 games are 7 games. Early or not, it's a big hole if you ask me. Historicaly only bad teams tend to fall 7 games behind in early May.

asindc
05-06-2010, 06:43 PM
:rolleyes:

The poster was saying that had management realized they were very thin on offense going into the season, perhaps we wouldn't be looking up at 7 games from the Twins this early.

I see nothing wrong with his post.

Besides, 7 games are 7 games. Early or not, it's a big hole if you ask me. Historicaly only bad teams tend to fall 7 games behind in early May.

Management did realize it.

Craig Grebeck
05-06-2010, 06:51 PM
Most of the experts thought the Mariners got enough offense in the offseason, and they are looking for offense as well.

The White Sox probably wouldn't be looking for offense, though, if their pitching was as good as the experts, and White Sox fans, believed it would be.
Putting all your eggs in one basket is a poor, poor strategy. Expecting 2005-level pitching is foolish.

LoveYourSuit
05-06-2010, 06:52 PM
Management did realize it.

So why didn't they address it in the offseason?

Coops4Aces
05-06-2010, 06:53 PM
I've got a source inside the organization (cannot say who for obvious reasons) that said the first place the Sox looked was on the WSI thread about who can hit MLB pitching. Apparently a few people got PMs about joining the team.

Worst attempt at a joke this year...

LoveYourSuit
05-06-2010, 06:55 PM
Putting all your eggs in one basket is a poor, poor strategy. Expecting 2005-level pitching is foolish.


Leaves no margin for error.

The SP has been full of "error" so far.

asindc
05-06-2010, 06:56 PM
So why didn't they address it in the offseason?

They tried. My guess is that KW was constrained by budget.

Brian26
05-06-2010, 06:57 PM
I've got a source inside the organization (cannot say who for obvious reasons) that said the first place the Sox looked was on the WSI thread about who can hit MLB pitching. Apparently a few people got PMs about joining the team.

:rolling:

:thumbsup:

Brian26
05-06-2010, 06:58 PM
Worst attempt at a joke this year...

I thought it was near the top.

Sockinchisox
05-06-2010, 07:05 PM
I'll put this here.

Sox looking at Lance Berkman (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/514/berkman-has-attention-of-white-sox?campaign=rss&source=CHICAGOHeadlines)

Coops4Aces
05-06-2010, 07:06 PM
I thought it was near the top.

Not a chance. No one ever said they could consistently hit MLB pitching...just a few random hits here and there.

russ99
05-06-2010, 07:30 PM
I'll put this here.

Sox looking at Lance Berkman (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/514/berkman-has-attention-of-white-sox?campaign=rss&source=CHICAGOHeadlines)

The Sox don't match up prospect wise (Houston has young outfielders and a top-prospect catcher. They need pitching and infielders.) and I doubt they'd send Dan Hudson anywhere right now.

And if Kenny and Jerry would be OK with adding another $14M to the payroll, I have some questions to ask about where this was this past offseason...

Marqhead
05-06-2010, 07:45 PM
The Sox don't match up prospect wise (Houston has young outfielders and a top-prospect catcher. They need pitching and infielders.) and I doubt they'd send Dan Hudson anywhere right now.

And if Kenny and Jerry would be OK with adding another $14M to the payroll, I have some questions to ask about where this was this past offseason...

If the Sox are after Berkman, Houston is eating a large amount of that salary. Still don't really know if I like the move.

/Hawk "Where's he gonna play?" /Hawk

A. Cavatica
05-06-2010, 07:48 PM
The problem is all those solo home runs. Turn those into infield hits, and you've really got something.

Frater Perdurabo
05-06-2010, 08:50 PM
You know where they need to find offense? Beckham and Quentin.

asindc
05-06-2010, 09:18 PM
You know where they need to find offense? Beckham and Quentin.

What he said.

VMSNS
05-06-2010, 09:21 PM
I'll put this here.

Sox looking at Lance Berkman (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/514/berkman-has-attention-of-white-sox?campaign=rss&source=CHICAGOHeadlines)

Ozzie would probably play him in left field.

You know where they need to find offense? Beckham and Quentin.

Agreed. Getting Beckham hitting would help a lot, I think, but I also think almost everyone was expecting him to slump at some point this season. Quentin...yeah, we know he's got it in him somewhere, but I'm starting to get a little impatient waiting for him to be "the guy" that everyone thinks he is.

Defensively, the left side of the infield gives me nightmares. We need to find some way to correct that. Although, I'm not sure if Kenny/Ozzie would be willing to part with "the best SS in the American League outside Erick Aybar".

EDIT: We also need a long reliever or another lefty in the pen not named "Randy Williams"

Tragg
05-06-2010, 09:37 PM
That's great- Williams and Guillen clown around in the offseason and load the team with players who excel at Ozzie-ball (lack of ability to get on base; DHs who can play defense e.g.) and can't/won't sign any real hitters; now when it, extremely predictably, fails, they want to use scarce assets and trade for some.
What a way to build a team.

Frontman
05-06-2010, 09:59 PM
Kenny should be on the phone with Dye's agent tonight. Get a real DH; and drop one of the "Ozzieball" backup infielders already.

Soxfest
05-06-2010, 10:07 PM
:angry:Whoever Sox get they will blow once Walker gets his hands on them!:angry:

PalehosePlanet
05-06-2010, 10:22 PM
Most of the experts thought the Mariners got enough offense in the offseason, and they are looking for offense as well.

The White Sox probably wouldn't be looking for offense, though, if their pitching was as good as the experts, and White Sox fans, believed it would be.

Not true TDog. We're dead last in MLB w/a .225 batting avg and dead last w/RISP at .190.

Obviously the starting pitching has not been as advertised -- far from it -- but the offense has cost us about 5 games already.

PalehosePlanet
05-06-2010, 10:31 PM
I'll put this here.

Sox looking at Lance Berkman (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/514/berkman-has-attention-of-white-sox?campaign=rss&source=CHICAGOHeadlines)

That article was written by Bruce Levine. In the last sentence of the article he states that Jordan Danks is our top minor leaguer. What an idiot.

NLaloosh
05-07-2010, 06:43 AM
I really only have one complaint about their offseason.

I thought that Rios would return to his old self. I thought Teahen wou;d be better than he is. I thought Jones could be pretty good- not as good as he is. And, I thought Beckham, Quentin and Alexei would play much better.

However, I can't believe the amount of money they paid Pierre - and for two years - and gave up two pitching prospects for him! My only complaint.

Lillian
05-07-2010, 07:12 AM
Kenny should be on the phone with Dye's agent tonight. Get a real DH; and drop one of the "Ozzieball" backup infielders already.

As has been stated many times in these threads; they don't need another right handed bat. If they are going to acquire a hitter he has to be left
handed.

Berkman would make sense, if you could get him. Although he is a switch hitter, he's better from the left side. His OBP vs right handers is very impressive, and that could really help a lot.

This year, Sox LH batters have a .250 OBP vs LHP and a .297 OBP vs RHP.
Their slugging % is even worse: .218 SLG vs LHP and a .300 SLG vs RHP.

doublem23
05-07-2010, 07:57 AM
As has been stated many times in these threads; they don't need another right handed bat. If they are going to acquire a hitter he has to be left
handed.

That is pure horse****. Where in the hell does anyone around here get off in being picky about adding bats to this lineup? Our current AL offensive ranks are:


Dead last in BA
12th in OBP
11th in TB
10th in R/G
9th in SLG

The thought that the Sox should start refusing RH hitters because we're so stacked with them is utterly absurd.

Lillian
05-07-2010, 08:17 AM
That is pure horse****. Where in the hell does anyone around here get off in being picky about adding bats to this lineup? Our current AL offensive ranks are:


Dead last in BA
12th in OBP
11th in TB
10th in R/G
9th in SLG
The thought that the Sox should start refusing RH hitters because we're so stacked with them is utterly absurd.

I respectfully disagree. The absence of a left handed power bat is a huge offensive handicap. All of your right handed hitters would have to be real studs, and be good vs right handed pitching, in order to overcome that inherent weakness. Better balance would be far more preferable.

cws05champ
05-07-2010, 08:22 AM
I respectfully disagree. The absence of a left handed power bat is a huge offensive handicap. All of your right handed hitters would have to be real studs, and be good vs right handed pitching, in order to overcome that inherent weakness. Better balance would be far more preferable.
And if it weren't for Ozzie being a stubborn ass, we could have had Thome's LH bat and his .950 OPS for $1M. It was a bad move not bringing him back then, and it's even worse now.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 09:00 AM
And if it weren't for Ozzie being a stubborn ass, we could have had Thome's LH bat and his .950 OPS for $1M. It was a bad move not bringing him back then, and it's even worse now.Wrong. Thome is nowhere near a .950 OPS at this point in his career. It doesn't matter what he is hitting now. People are crazy pining for Pods or Thome. If they were on the Sox they would be right in the middle of the pack hitting in the low .200s. Do people honestly think Thome isn't benefiting from hitting behind Mauer and Morneau? Bat him behind Quentin's .175 average and he is doing A LOT worse.

If the Sox' hitters were perfoming anywhere close to their capability, they wouldn't be the '27 Yankees, but we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem is failure from talented guys we already have, but the Sox don't want to dig out the wart that is causing this problem. Therefore, we will watch Quentin turn from a potential .300 average/35 HR hitter to a .250, 25 HR hitter and Beckham never reach his potential.

cws05champ
05-07-2010, 09:26 AM
Wrong. Thome is nowhere near a .950 OPS at this point in his career. It doesn't matter what he is hitting now. People are crazy pining for Pods or Thome. If they were on the Sox they would be right in the middle of the pack hitting in the low .200s. Do people honestly think Thome isn't benefiting from hitting behind Mauer and Morneau? Bat him behind Quentin's .175 average and he is doing A LOT worse.

Why doesn't it matter what he is hitting right now? Our offense is sucking RIGHT NOW. I would think it would matter the most that at a point where our offense is bad, that we could use a guy like Thome.

Sure, he is benefiting from Mauer and Mornaeu but with his OPS at this point he would be in front of or behind Konerko, and sandwich between him and Jones. Thome is what he is for the season, a .250 avg, .500 SLG with a good OBP and HR's. But RIGHT NOW, we could use him in the lineup with Jones in the OF in place of Pierre or Quentin.

I'm not pining for Thome...I said at the time that it was a bad move not to bring him back as a platoon DH with Jones. Because they didn't it gave them no margin for error in their offense.

munchman33
05-07-2010, 09:29 AM
Wrong. Thome is nowhere near a .950 OPS at this point in his career. It doesn't matter what he is hitting now. People are crazy pining for Pods or Thome. If they were on the Sox they would be right in the middle of the pack hitting in the low .200s. Do people honestly think Thome isn't benefiting from hitting behind Mauer and Morneau? Bat him behind Quentin's .175 average and he is doing A LOT worse.

If the Sox' hitters were perfoming anywhere close to their capability, they wouldn't be the '27 Yankees, but we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem is failure from talented guys we already have, but the Sox don't want to dig out the wart that is causing this problem. Therefore, we will watch Quentin turn from a potential .300 average/35 HR hitter to a .250, 25 HR hitter and Beckham never reach his potential.

Sooner or later, you'll have to concede their capabilities are closer to what the naysayers were screaming all offseason. It's not mid-April anymore. This isn't a slump.

asindc
05-07-2010, 09:35 AM
Sooner or later, you'll have to concede their capabilities are closer to what the naysayers were screaming all offseason. It's not mid-April anymore. This isn't a slump.

So the naysayers screamed that Beckham and Quentin are sub-.200 hitters, and AJ and Pierre are sub-.250 hitters?

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 09:38 AM
So the naysayers screamed that Beckham and Quentin are sub-.200 hitters, and AJ and Pierre are sub-.250 hitters?Actually, they probably did.:rolleyes:

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 09:45 AM
Why doesn't it matter what he is hitting right now? Our offense is sucking RIGHT NOW. I would think it would matter the most that at a point where our offense is bad, that we could use a guy like Thome.

Sure, he is benefiting from Mauer and Mornaeu but with his OPS at this point he would be in front of or behind Konerko, and sandwich between him and Jones. Thome is what he is for the season, a .250 avg, .500 SLG with a good OBP and HR's. But RIGHT NOW, we could use him in the lineup with Jones in the OF in place of Pierre or Quentin.

I'm not pining for Thome...I said at the time that it was a bad move not to bring him back as a platoon DH with Jones. Because they didn't it gave them no margin for error in their offense.I am not saying a .950 OPS right now wouldn't look good in our lineup. I will ask again, what exactly from Jim Thome's tenure with the Sox leads you to believe he would be putting up the same OPS, or even one above .800 right now if he were on the Sox? He was as streaky as anyone on the team. When the team went into its bi-annual month long slump, he was always in the middle of it. The players have come and gone, but the offense has remained the same over the past 7 years. The offensive philosophy leads to and accepts 8 hitters slumping for an entire month. Anyone short of Mauer or Pujols would probably have a prolongued slump in this lineup. Although we don't have the most talented lineup in the world, for the most part, the hitters themselves are not the problem.

munchman33
05-07-2010, 09:46 AM
So the naysayers screamed that Beckham and Quentin are sub-.200 hitters, and AJ and Pierre are sub-.250 hitters?

I screamed that Quentin was injury prone, Beckham was in his second year, AJ was old, and Pierre was a below average player who never played in the American League. So yes.

Lillian
05-07-2010, 09:46 AM
To elaborate on the split stats of the 2010 Sox, it's interesting to note that their right handed batters are not performing all that badly vs either RHP or LHP:


Sox RHB vs RHP .228 .315 .464

Sox RHB vs LHP .241 .341 .442

Contrast that with the horrible numbers I posted earlier, and it would seem to make a pretty compelling argument for the need of a potent left handed bat.

None of this should come as a surprise to anyone. We all know that the only Sox hitters who have been producing so far are right handed.
If everyone were performing like Rios, Jones, and Konerko there wouldn't be a problem. Even Quentin has at least driven in runs.

The left handed hitting on this team has been completely absent. Even if Pierre, A.J., Kotsay (who shouldn't be playing in the first place), and Teahen get going, they're going to remain very challenged in the left handed hitting department.
None of those guys are big run producers.

I'm sure that K.W. is not looking for another right handed bat.

salty99
05-07-2010, 09:51 AM
I've got a source inside the organization (cannot say who for obvious reasons) that said the first place the Sox looked was on the WSI thread about who can hit MLB pitching. Apparently a few people got PMs about joining the team.

They contacted me since I could hit .350 with 35 dingers a year during years where I don't need a mental break or am not injured.

asindc
05-07-2010, 09:54 AM
I screamed that Quentin was injury prone, Beckham was in his second year, AJ was old, and Pierre was a below average player who never played in the American League. So yes.

You did not scream that any of them would perform this badly. So no.

cws05champ
05-07-2010, 09:58 AM
I am not saying a .950 OPS right now wouldn't look good in our lineup. I will ask again, what exactly from Jim Thome's tenure with the Sox leads you to believe he would be putting up the same OPS, or even one above .800 right now if he were on the Sox? He was as streaky as anyone on the team. When the team went into its bi-annual month long slump, he was always in the middle of it.
What leads you to believe he wouldn't be posting an OPS over .800? With Konerko's hot month of April, Thome could have benefited from hitting in front or behind him. It's an answer neither one of us can answer because that is not the reality of the situation.

I don't think our offense would be worse than what it is with Thome in it.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 10:12 AM
I screamed that Quentin was injury prone, Beckham was in his second year, AJ was old, and Pierre was a below average player who never played in the American League. So yes.DLS is a future hall of famer, Derrek Rose is an epic bust, etc. You are right, we should have listened to you.

munchman33
05-07-2010, 10:18 AM
You did not scream that any of them would perform this badly. So no.

No, I just screamed we would have the worst offense in the league because everyone except Beckham and Quentin were either old or bad players, and it was a bad decision to base our entire offense on a second year player and a guy who's been injured for more than a year now. Hard to see how that's a "no."

munchman33
05-07-2010, 10:20 AM
DLS is a future hall of famer, Derrek Rose is an epic bust, etc. You are right, we should have listened to you.

:whatever:

That's completely unrelated and off topic. Unless you're using it to admit you're wrong and want to find something completely unrelated I was wrong about to feel better about yourself being wrong. Then go ahead and bring those completely unrelated issues up.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 10:25 AM
:whatever:

That's completely unrelated and off topic. Unless you're using it to admit you're wrong and want to find something completely unrelated I was wrong about to feel better about yourself being wrong. Then go ahead and bring those completely unrelated issues up.It is very much related. I am saying that you are wrong pretty frequently, and therefore, your decrees on player evaluation in any sport should carry no great significance. There are some people who always claim the Sox are going to be horrible every year, regardless of the talent level. After 2005, 2006 (for the most part) or 2008, those people were silent about boasting their preseason predictions. However, after bad years its "How could management not have seen this?! I called it months in advance!"

KMcMahon817
05-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Why doesn't it matter what he is hitting right now? Our offense is sucking RIGHT NOW. I would think it would matter the most that at a point where our offense is bad, that we could use a guy like Thome.

Sure, he is benefiting from Mauer and Mornaeu but with his OPS at this point he would be in front of or behind Konerko, and sandwich between him and Jones. Thome is what he is for the season, a .250 avg, .500 SLG with a good OBP and HR's. But RIGHT NOW, we could use him in the lineup with Jones in the OF in place of Pierre or Quentin.

I'm not pining for Thome...I said at the time that it was a bad move not to bring him back as a platoon DH with Jones. Because they didn't it gave them no margin for error in their offense.

To be honest with you, I would much rather have Jones in there than Thome. The Thome ship has sailed, and we should all be happy about it.

KMcMahon817
05-07-2010, 10:46 AM
No, I just screamed we would have the worst offense in the league because everyone except Beckham and Quentin were either old or bad players, and it was a bad decision to base our entire offense on a second year player and a guy who's been injured for more than a year now. Hard to see how that's a "no."

I didn't know Teahen, Alexei and Rios were old? :scratch:

soltrain21
05-07-2010, 10:59 AM
DLS is a future hall of famer, Derrek Rose is an epic bust, etc. You are right, we should have listened to you.

That's so ****ing old. The Rose stuff was funny, sure. But give it a rest already. ****ing christ.

Dibbs
05-07-2010, 11:16 AM
I respectfully disagree. The absence of a left handed power bat is a huge offensive handicap. All of your right handed hitters would have to be real studs, and be good vs right handed pitching, in order to overcome that inherent weakness. Better balance would be far more preferable.

This left handed bat argument is starting to drive me crazy. Kenny and many others seem to have this philosophy that a weaker hitting left handed bat is superior to having a great right handed hitter. I will take nine right handed hitting players if they are all good. Kotsay, Teahen, Vizquel, Pierre...what a joke. Those bats add no value. Dye would help this team more than any of them.

Craig Grebeck
05-07-2010, 11:20 AM
I didn't know Teahen, Alexei and Rios were old? :scratch:
I wouldn't call Alexei a bad player -- merely average. Rios was coming off a bad year and in a fairly steady decline. As for Teahen: bad bad bad bad bad.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 11:25 AM
That's so ****ing old. The Rose stuff was funny, sure. But give it a rest already. ****ing christ.Nope, wrong. The Rose stuff is less than two years old, and the barrier for "so ****ing" old is farther away than two years. My point is, as you missed it twice, that Munchman is no "authority" on player evaluation. Him saying he "knew" players would be horrible (which of course involves the insanely idiotic practice of extrapolating one month performances to the entire season) has no kind of relevance since there were many times he "knew" players would be horrible but they weren't. Honestly, people throw **** at the wall every season, regardless of the talent level of the team or anything else, and then act like oracles the times when the **** does stick.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 11:29 AM
I wouldn't call Alexei a bad player -- merely average. Rios was coming off a bad year and in a fairly steady decline. As for Teahen: bad bad bad bad bad.
Wrong, Rios was not in any decline, let along a steady one. As for Teahen, once again you are wrong. He hasn't hit well the entire season (and nobody had except for Rios, Jones, and Konerko for about a week and a half), however, his numbers are .250/.341. Clearly he is bringing the team down!

Craig Grebeck
05-07-2010, 11:32 AM
Wrong, Rios was not in any decline, let along a steady one. As for Teahen, once again you are wrong. He hasn't hit well the entire season (and nobody had except for Rios, Jones, and Konerko for about a week and a half), however, his numbers are .250/.341. Clearly he is bringing the team down!
1. OPS numbers for Alex Rios, seasons 2006-2009: .865/.852/.798/.691. Perhaps you can quibble with the term "steady," but he's been falling off a bit. I certainly have no qualms with him this year.
2. Teahen is a bad player. I have no hesitation saying that.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 11:37 AM
This left handed bat argument is starting to drive me crazy. Kenny and many others seem to have this philosophy that a weaker hitting left handed bat is superior to having a great right handed hitter. I will take nine right handed hitting players if they are all good. Kotsay, Teahen, Vizquel, Pierre...what a joke. Those bats add no value. Dye would help this team more than any of them.First off, that is nonsense, especially about Teahen. That is you just saying "I don't like them" unless you can say what quantifies adding value.

As for Dye, you are talking about the 36 year old Jermain Dye, who hit .179 in the second half of the season? .179 isn't an improvement over ANYBODY. What assures you he would do any better than that? Add his bat into a slumping lineup and let him kill two months "getting up to speed", and the idea is horrible. Then, he will hit stride for about a month, and his numbers can start sliding again as he pouts about not having a contract for next year.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 11:38 AM
2. Teahen is a bad player. I have no hesitation saying that.And that is why I like you. You aren't afraid to be wrong.

munchman33
05-07-2010, 11:43 AM
It is very much related. I am saying that you are wrong pretty frequently, and therefore, your decrees on player evaluation in any sport should carry no great significance. There are some people who always claim the Sox are going to be horrible every year, regardless of the talent level. After 2005, 2006 (for the most part) or 2008, those people were silent about boasting their preseason predictions. However, after bad years its "How could management not have seen this?! I called it months in advance!"

Nope, wrong. The Rose stuff is less than two years old, and the barrier for "so ****ing" old is farther away than two years. My point is, as you missed it twice, that Munchman is no "authority" on player evaluation. Him saying he "knew" players would be horrible (which of course involves the insanely idiotic practice of extrapolating one month performances to the entire season) has no kind of relevance since there were many times he "knew" players would be horrible but they weren't. Honestly, people throw **** at the wall every season, regardless of the talent level of the team or anything else, and then act like oracles the times when the **** does stick.

Whatever issues you have with me you are welcome to send me a pm about, but I'll ask you nicely not to attack me personally or call me an idiot in public. Thanks.

munchman33
05-07-2010, 11:45 AM
I didn't know Teahen, Alexei and Rios were old? :scratch:

I had issues withTeahen (sucks) and Rios (huge question mark) and was vocal about it too. Rios has proven me wrong. Teahen has not. Alexei is off to a terrible start. That's always the expectation with him.

Craig Grebeck
05-07-2010, 11:49 AM
And that is why I like you. You aren't afraid to be wrong.
Do you want to address Rios' numbers 2006-2009? Your statement about there being no decline shows a certain ballsy "**** facts" mentality.

Also, is there anything Teahen does well? Average hitter who plays poor defense. His only asset is that he can play a bunch of positions below average (with the corners of the outfield representing the only average-above average position). Too bad we aren't utilizing that one talent.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 11:53 AM
Whatever issues you have with me you are welcome to send me a pm about, but I'll ask you nicely not to attack me personally or call me an idiot in public. Thanks.I have no issues with you whatsoever. I did, however, take issue with you bringing up things you predicted in the preseason as some indicator that you knew it all along, and therefore know it all, since there were other instances you made similar predictions and were wrong. That is all. I don't care what you think, but don't throw your past predictions out as some great indicator unless you want your record brought up. That is all.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 12:10 PM
Do you want to address Rios' numbers 2006-2009? Your statement about there being no decline shows a certain ballsy "**** facts" mentality.

Also, is there anything Teahen does well? Average hitter who plays poor defense. His only asset is that he can play a bunch of positions below average (with the corners of the outfield representing the only average-above average position). Too bad we aren't utilizing that one talent.There was not a significant difference in Rios' number from 2006 to 07. In 08 his OPS dropped, but he hit more doubles than ever before. Had a few of those cleared the fence, his homer numbers and OPS would look different. His batting average was .006 lower than it was in 07, and he didn't take as many walks. His season wasn't as good, but even if you want to count that as regression, that is a one year trend. He was working on things in Toronto last year, and obviously he was in the middle of a poor season before the Sox claimed him and the bottom fell out. However, his doubles were relatively consistent and his power numbers were returning to past levels. Being a stat guy you should throw out a year that poor as statistical anomality, but even if you don't want to, that is a two year trend for Rios.

As for Teahen, I have seen enough of him defensively at third. What defensive statistic are you using to evaluate his performance. How is that stat generated? He has been passable thusfar, but there is certainly room for improvement. He has a few mechanical issues in the field now. These are things that can be changed relatively easily. He isn't anywhere near as poor defensively as you want to make him out to be.

Craig Grebeck
05-07-2010, 12:12 PM
There was not a significant difference in Rios' number from 2006 to 07. In 08 his OPS dropped, but he hit more doubles than ever before. Had a few of those cleared the fence, his homer numbers and OPS would look different. His batting average was .006 lower than it was in 07, and he didn't take as many walks. His season wasn't as good, but even if you want to count that as regression, that is a one year trend. He was working on things in Toronto last year, and obviously he was in the middle of a poor season before the Sox claimed him and the bottom fell out. However, his doubles were relatively consistent and his power numbers were returning to past levels. Being a stat guy you should throw out a year that poor as statistical anomality, but even if you don't want to, that is a two year trend for Rios.

As for Teahen, I have seen enough of him defensively at third. What defensive statistic are you using to evaluate his performance. How is that stat generated? He has been passable thusfar, but there is certainly room for improvement. He has a few mechanical issues in the field now. These are things that can be changed relatively easily. He isn't anywhere near as poor defensively as you want to make him out to be.
Using the eye test, he is below average defensively at third base. Using UZR, he is below average. Using +/-, he is below average. Using scouting reports, he is below average.

Edit: and if you graph Rios' OPS numbers, it's a decline. Call it what you will, he's been declining.

khan
05-07-2010, 12:25 PM
Amazing that what many of us foresaw this offseason couldn't have been seen by the FO, or by others here. Amazing that the bigger picture [the fact that the offense sucks ass] is being muddled by minutia. [Whether or not Rios has been in a free-fall in recent years, which he clearly had been]


While I'd LOVE a lefty power bat, I'd settle for a decent bat of ANY handedness, of ANY type, be it a high OBP-type guy, a high SLG% guy, a high AVE guy.

Were I the FO, I'd lose one of the backup middle IF [choose one: Vizquel or Nix], and replace it with an offense-first type of player, if they can be found.

Unfortunately, the backup-quality players that are starting [Teahen/Pierre] simply can't be moved right now. It seems that the SOX will simply have to live with them.

The youngsters [Beckham/Quentin] aren't doing much of anything, but one has to HOPE that they'll figure it out sooner or later. What we DON'T want is to admit that perhaps these two aren't as good as we think they might be.

khan
05-07-2010, 12:30 PM
The Sox don't match up prospect wise (Houston has young outfielders and a top-prospect catcher. They need pitching and infielders.) and I doubt they'd send Dan Hudson anywhere right now.

And if Kenny and Jerry would be OK with adding another $14M to the payroll, I have some questions to ask about where this was this past offseason...

Well, Berkman is at least open to the idea, IF it were to a contender:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2010/05/lance-berkman-open-minded-about-a-possible-trade/1


I for one have been in favor of this idea, ever since KW let OG talk him into doing exactly Jack and **** to put together an at least adequate offense during this past offseason.

Frontman
05-07-2010, 12:41 PM
munchman, Roman?

Can't we all just get along?

sox1970
05-07-2010, 12:46 PM
I don't want the Sox to trade young players for Berkman. Nothing is going to help 2010. Hang on to the money. Hang on to the young players. And move some veterans before the break.

Lillian
05-07-2010, 12:49 PM
This left handed bat argument is starting to drive me crazy. Kenny and many others seem to have this philosophy that a weaker hitting left handed bat is superior to having a great right handed hitter. I will take nine right handed hitting players if they are all good. Kotsay, Teahen, Vizquel, Pierre...what a joke. Those bats add no value. Dye would help this team more than any of them.

I can't speak for K. W., or anyone else, but I am not advocating the acquisition of a poor hitting left handed bat. I'm specifically talking about a potent, high OBP, left handed hitter.

white sox bill
05-07-2010, 12:57 PM
I've got a source inside the organization (cannot say who for obvious reasons) that said the first place the Sox looked was on the WSI thread about who can hit MLB pitching. Apparently a few people got PMs about joining the team.

:KW
"Oz I can't talk right now, my plane is boarding"

asindc
05-07-2010, 02:19 PM
No, I just screamed we would have the worst offense in the league because everyone except Beckham and Quentin were either old or bad players, and it was a bad decision to base our entire offense on a second year player and a guy who's been injured for more than a year now. Hard to see how that's a "no."

So to remedy that, you would have preferred to see KW sign either other old (Thome, Damon, Dye) or injured (Branyon) player(s)? Not really seeing how that would have assuaged the concern you express in this post.

KMcMahon817
05-07-2010, 02:30 PM
I wouldn't call Alexei a bad player -- merely average. Rios was coming off a bad year and in a fairly steady decline. As for Teahen: bad bad bad bad bad.

Still can't admit Rios is better than average. Doesn't surprise me.:rolleyes:

Oh, and there are more statistics than OPS to rate a player, believe it or not.

JB98
05-07-2010, 02:32 PM
I don't want the Sox to trade young players for Berkman. Nothing is going to help 2010. Hang on to the money. Hang on to the young players. And move some veterans before the break.

Me neither. I'm not opposed to trading young players. But I think Berkman is in decline and a waste of money. Save the money and get somebody better later.

NLaloosh
05-07-2010, 03:18 PM
2. Teahen is a bad player. I have no hesitation saying that.

And that is why I like you. You aren't afraid to be wrong.

You know, it seems to me that I keep hearing now that Teahen should be about average defensively and offensively for a third basemen or that's about what the Sox were hoping for.

If that's the case, I'm ok with that for this year. Since, giving up Getz and Fields was nothing.

What I don't understand is locking up the guy with a long term deal if the team didn't really think that he was going to become a special player ? I don't understand that. I'm ok with him for this year but if he really doesn't take his game up a notch then future years are a bad deal because they will need to upgrade from him.

I thought he'd be better on both sides of the ball. But, it's still early - as they say.

khan
05-07-2010, 03:21 PM
Me neither. I'm not opposed to trading young players. But I think Berkman is in decline and a waste of money.
That may be, but he's also probably better than our mighty LH bat, Mark Kotsay.

Save the money and get somebody better later.

How about this instead:

KW, stop listening to what the blowhard Ozzie Guillen says, and put together a more complete team. The only two times KW did that ['05 and '08], the team competed. When KW put together piles of ****, [07, 09, and 2010] the team sucks HARD.

Anyone with a 3-digit IQ could've seen this train wreck coming. Hell, KW could've saved us a lot of heartache and saved his boss a lot of money if they'd brought in an actual LH bat. [$1M to Thome sounded good months ago, and sounds GREAT now.]

russ99
05-07-2010, 03:56 PM
That may be, but he's also probably better than our mighty LH bat, Mark Kotsay.



How about this instead:

KW, stop listening to what the blowhard Ozzie Guillen says, and put together a more complete team. The only two times KW did that ['05 and '08], the team competed. When KW put together piles of ****, [07, 09, and 2010] the team sucks HARD.

Anyone with a 3-digit IQ could've seen this train wreck coming. Hell, KW could've saved us a lot of heartache and saved his boss a lot of money if they'd brought in an actual LH bat. [$1M to Thome sounded good months ago, and sounds GREAT now.]

Again, Ozzie had very little to do with this. Why keep blaming him other than that he's a convenient scapegoat?

Again, Thome's a 39 year old part-time one dimentional player who can't field a position. Would he really have helped things?

Had his boss allocated an extra $8-10M this offseason, we could have gotten that actual bat. But he didn't.

TheOldRoman
05-07-2010, 04:03 PM
That may be, but he's also probably better than our mighty LH bat, Mark Kotsay.



How about this instead:

KW, stop listening to what the blowhard Ozzie Guillen says, and put together a more complete team. The only two times KW did that ['05 and '08], the team competed. When KW put together piles of ****, [07, 09, and 2010] the team sucks HARD. You don't recognize it, but this team is the most complete team the Sox have had since 2005. There is no gaping hole in the lineup. We have a leadoff hitter, a CF, and Andruw is our DH. Once guys start hitting like they are capable of, this lineup looks a whole lot better. Our rotation is stacked despite its performance to date, and our bullpen is strong.

Anyone with a 3-digit IQ could've seen this train wreck coming. Hell, KW could've saved us a lot of heartache and saved his boss a lot of money if they'd brought in an actual LH bat. [$1M to Thome sounded good months ago, and sounds GREAT now.]Ahh, so we aren't as SMART as you. I get it.:rolleyes:

KMcMahon817
05-07-2010, 05:02 PM
you don't recognize it, but this team is the most complete team the sox have had since 2005. There is no gaping hole in the lineup. We have a leadoff hitter, a cf, and andruw is our dh. Once guys start hitting like they are capable of, this lineup looks a whole lot better. Our rotation is stacked despite its performance to date, and our bullpen is strong.


+1,000,000

khan
05-07-2010, 05:55 PM
Again, Ozzie had very little to do with this. Why keep blaming him other than that he's a convenient scapegoat?
Because Ozzie didn't want an actual DH. He wanted the "flexibility" in the lineup. Well, now he's got it, and "flexibility" sucks HARD.

Again, Thome's a 39 year old part-time one dimentional player who can't field a position. Would he really have helped things?
Yes. Yes he would. His 1 dimension is better than the supposed many dimensions that Kotsay has.

On a team that sucks at OBP, it usually helps to get a guy that has a good OBP for the lineup. On a team that sucks at hitting, it usually helps to get, you know, good hitters on the team.

khan
05-07-2010, 06:06 PM
You don't recognize it, but this team is the most complete team the Sox have had since 2005. There is no gaping hole in the lineup. We have a leadoff hitter, a CF, and Andruw is our DH.
Really? Wow.

I guess having a below average OBP guy at the top is OK then? Or a #2 hitter who can't, you know, hit? Or a 3rd baseman who's below average for his position?

Perhaps your idea of "no holes" is different than mine.

Once guys start hitting like they are capable of, this lineup looks a whole lot better. Our rotation is stacked despite its performance to date, and our bullpen is strong.
I agree with the latter two statements here. But who exactly is hitting below their capabilities?

AJ and Pierre, IMO, and that's about it.

Teahen, Rios, Konerko, and Ramirez [with his annual slow start] are doing about what one could expect; Perhaps Konerko is somewhat above expectations.

Jones is WAY ABOVE what I expected him to do, to tell you the truth. But then, he had a great start to 2009, only to have it dribble down his leg in the second half.

We don't know FOR SURE if Quentin is an MVP-type hitter, or a one year wonder. Yeah, he had 5 GREAT months in 2008, but what has he done since then? Until he PROVES otherwise, he's a career ~.250 hitter, whether we like it or not.

The same is true for Beckham. We HOPE he'll be a major star, but we don't have a track record on him. In any case, I expected some dropoff, due to him being in his second season. But he could ALSO be a very ordinary player, we just don't know.


I don't think that this team isn't "just in a slump." I think that this team was poorly-constructed, and are doing [offensively] about what one can expect them to do.

This craptacular offense is wasting what should be a good pitching staff. In sum, this team is destined to finish 3rd.

Ahh, so we aren't as SMART as you. I get it.
Thank you.

Domeshot17
05-07-2010, 06:07 PM
It comes down to the fact us "dark clouds" were right for the first part of the season at least. I get ZERO satisfaction in it, I hate it, I want to win. I hate watching losing baseball with a passion. That said, we built an offense, where, EVERYTHING HAD TO GO RIGHT, in order to be a little above average. Rios had to bounce back, Beckham had to not slump, Quentin had to be 2008 Quentin, Konerko had to stay the course, AJ the same, Alexei had to not disappear for the first part of the season, Teahen had to, well, not be Mark Teahen, Andruw had to bounce back. On top of all of it, our pitching had to be flawless.

Well, in the end, some happened, some didn't, and we are 7 games out and being out classed by the Twins. This team was built with ZERO margin for error, and well, this is the result.

Lillian
05-07-2010, 06:09 PM
This is a link to a relevant piece on Mlbrumors.com:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

khan
05-07-2010, 06:14 PM
It comes down to the fact us "dark clouds" were right for the first part of the season at least. I get ZERO satisfaction in it, I hate it, I want to win. I hate watching losing baseball with a passion. That said, we built an offense, where, EVERYTHING HAD TO GO RIGHT, in order to be a little above average. Rios had to bounce back, Beckham had to not slump, Quentin had to be 2008 Quentin, Konerko had to stay the course, AJ the same, Alexei had to not disappear for the first part of the season, Teahen had to, well, not be Mark Teahen, Andruw had to bounce back. On top of all of it, our pitching had to be flawless.

Well, in the end, some happened, some didn't, and we are 7 games out and being out classed by the Twins. This team was built with ZERO margin for error, and well, this is the result.

Quoted for truth. I HATE watching ****ty baseball, especially when it's my team. It's embarrassing watching an offense that's worse than MOST NL TEAMS, even though they have to bat pitchers.

JermaineDye05
05-07-2010, 06:16 PM
This is a link to a relevant piece on Mlbrumors.com:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

BJ Upton, Carl Crawford, Evan Longoria, and David Price for Konerko straight-up.

TDog
05-07-2010, 06:33 PM
BJ Upton, Carl Crawford, Evan Longoria, and David Price for Konerko straight-up.

Kenny Williams is an idiot for not making that trade in the second week of April when there was still a chance to salvage the season.

asindc
05-07-2010, 06:39 PM
Kenny Williams is an idiot for not making that trade in the second week of April when there was still a chance to salvage the season.

See, this is where all the KW apologists go wrong. It's clear that you don't do that trade until Tampa Bay includes Matt Garza.

Lip Man 1
05-07-2010, 06:50 PM
I understand the point of view of those who proclaim "it's early..." Fair enough. Kenny says 'wait till the 60 game mark...'

OK... but honestly I don't think much is going to change except perhaps that we'll be farther behind the Twins.

Then all of us can agree to start watching for 'fire sale' talk.

Lip

Tragg
05-07-2010, 10:41 PM
Again, Ozzie had very little to do with this. Why keep blaming him other than that he's a convenient scapegoat?

He has everything to do with it. Williams built this team based on Guillen's direction. This team is exactly what Guillen likes: aggressive swingers, moves runners around the bases, can steal bases. Secondary: power. Tertirary (if that) are plate discipline and obp (something Guillen has consistently mocked).


Making a trade to pull yet another veteran on this team would be ridiculous.
Berkman? Come on.
Instead, Williams has to be really clever and pick up some talent while peddling these players off this team. It won't be easy.

Konerko and Jones should bring something: they are having good years AND you don't get stuck with a contract after this year.

Frontman
05-07-2010, 10:55 PM
This is a link to a relevant piece on Mlbrumors.com:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Rumor:
-noun
1. a story or statement in general circulation without confirmation or certainty as to facts: a rumor of war.
2. gossip; hearsay: Don't listen to rumor.

munchman33
05-08-2010, 12:48 AM
I have no issues with you whatsoever. I did, however, take issue with you bringing up things you predicted in the preseason as some indicator that you knew it all along, and therefore know it all, since there were other instances you made similar predictions and were wrong. That is all. I don't care what you think, but don't throw your past predictions out as some great indicator unless you want your record brought up. That is all.

So, instead of "yeah, you were right," it's you were right, but you've been wrong once or twice before so you were right but I'm not giving you credit. On top of that, I'm going to make it personal and call you an idiot in a lot in my posts about it.

Got it.

Seriously, stop with the personal attacks and keep it on topic. It's uncalled for and you're just plain being a jerk.

So to remedy that, you would have preferred to see KW sign either other old (Thome, Damon, Dye) or injured (Branyon) player(s)? Not really seeing how that would have assuaged the concern you express in this post.

I did prefer Branyan (which is looking like a mistake), but the bigger issue is KW's misreading of the market. He's overpaying Pierre and Teahen by quite a large margin compared to what free agents got because he acted way too quickly.

doublem23
05-08-2010, 06:50 AM
You don't recognize it, but this team is the most complete team the Sox have had since 2005. There is no gaping hole in the lineup. We have a leadoff hitter, a CF, and Andruw is our DH. Once guys start hitting like they are capable of, this lineup looks a whole lot better. Our rotation is stacked despite its performance to date, and our bullpen is strong.

Are you serious?

There are holes everywhere in this lineup. Pierre is really this bad guys, I'm praying to god as hard as I can that Bacon is just in a sophomore slump and this is not the result of being rushed to the Majors, TCQ is a headcase that would make Freud's jaw hit the floor, Teahen is terrible, AJ is a 33-year-old catcher with a lot of miles on him, and our bench of Kotsay, Vizquel, Nix, and Castro/Lucy is just bad it's mind-blowing.

The only thing keeping us mildly alive right now are Konerko hitting the ball out of his mind, Jones being a productive everyday player, and Rios finding his old stroke back, and really, the only guy you can safely say should be able to keep it up all year is Rios; Konerko is in uncharted waters for him offensively and Jones is always 1 day away from getting hurt.

A lot of us recognized that this team could be good if EVERY. SINGLE. THING. went right for them, but it's quickly becoming evident that will not be the case. There is no wiggle room with this roster, there's no magic solutions waiting in Charlotte or Birmingham and, despite what some KW and Ozzie-backers proclaimed in the off-season, it's looking less and less likely that the Sox will be able to swoop in and nab a big bat from some floundering team elsewhere to patch our holes. We're ****ed. Our lineup is terrible, we have no trade bait. They'd be better off right now, realizing their mistakes and blowing this team up. Our top 4 pitchers are still under contract until the end of 2011. With a little prudence and a little luck, you might be able to build an offense that can score more than 3 runs per game and make us a contender next year. But sitting on our hands, pretending like everything will be OK if Quentin or Beckham ever bust out of their slump is like flooring the accelerator of your car when it's stuck in the mud, not only do you not go anywhere you sink deeper and deeper into the ****.

russ99
05-08-2010, 07:58 AM
I did prefer Branyan (which is looking like a mistake), but the bigger issue is KW's misreading of the market. He's overpaying Pierre and Teahen by quite a large margin compared to what free agents got because he acted way too quickly.

Keep thinking that.

Pierre - $3M
Teahen - $2.25M

Damon - $8M
Matsui - $6M
Figgins - $8M
Bay - $6.5M

It doesn't add up, even if you combine Pierre and Teahen's numbers and end up with an empty spot in the lineup.

You need to pay up to add impact free agents, something Kenny either didn't want to do or wasn't allowed to do.

If you want the reason why this team has a talent vaccum, it's here:

Off the books during/after 2009:
Dye - 11.5M
Thome - $13M
Contreras - $10M
Dotel - $6M
MacDougal - $2.65M
Betemit - $1.3M
Colon - $1M
----------------
Total: $45.45M

Added after the end of the 2009 season:
Pierre - $3M (after Dodgers cash)
Teahen - $2.25M (after Royals cash)
Putz - $3M
Vizquel - $1.375M
Jones - $500K
---------------
Total - $10.125M

For reference - Peavy + Rios - $25.2M

Even though guys got raises, it doesn't add up. Jerry did marginally add to the payroll, but I can't see any reason why he wouldn't have OKed one more impact bat at market prices, especially after losing 2 RBI guys after last year.

Tragg
05-08-2010, 08:33 AM
Keep thinking that.

Pierre - $3M
Teahen - $2.25M

Damon - $8M
Matsui - $6M
Figgins - $8M
Bay - $6.5M

It doesn't add up, even if you combine Pierre and Teahen's numbers and end up with an empty spot in the lineup. First, Teahan is at 3.75 million then 4.75 and then 5.5; Why Williams signed this guy long term is bizarre, especially at such an inflated rate.
You illustrate what I've been saying....you throw away money on lousy hitters, that you could have used for an impact hitter. Just add a little Castro (ozzie-style .300 obp), Kotsay and Vizquel to the mix and you can get a legitimate hitter. And then if you consider that Williams was willing to spend an extra $5 mill or so, we could have gotten 2 legitimate hitters.
Instead, we get 5 hitters who, while "aggressive" can't seem to get on base much.

doublem23
05-08-2010, 09:38 AM
First, Teahan is at 3.75 million then 4.75 and then 5.5; Why Williams signed this guy long term is bizarre, especially at such an inflated rate.
You illustrate what I've been saying....you throw away money on lousy hitters, that you could have used for an impact hitter. Just add a little Castro (ozzie-style .300 obp), Kotsay and Vizquel to the mix and you can get a legitimate hitter. And then if you consider that Williams was willing to spend an extra $5 mill or so, we could have gotten 2 legitimate hitters.
Instead, we get 5 hitters who, while "aggressive" can't seem to get on base much.

Teahen is only listed at $2.25 M because KC payed us $1.5 M to take him off their hands.

Either way, we're getting ripped off.

SephClone89
05-08-2010, 11:11 AM
FWIW, Jones and AJ got me A-Gon in The Show...

KMcMahon817
05-08-2010, 01:17 PM
Keep thinking that.

Pierre - $3M
Teahen - $2.25M

Damon - $8M
Matsui - $6M
Figgins - $8M
Bay - $6.5M

It doesn't add up, even if you combine Pierre and Teahen's numbers and end up with an empty spot in the lineup.

You need to pay up to add impact free agents, something Kenny either didn't want to do or wasn't allowed to do.

If you want the reason why this team has a talent vaccum, it's here:

Off the books during/after 2009:
Dye - 11.5M
Thome - $13M
Contreras - $10M
Dotel - $6M
MacDougal - $2.65M
Betemit - $1.3M
Colon - $1M
----------------
Total: $45.45M

Added after the end of the 2009 season:
Pierre - $3M (after Dodgers cash)
Teahen - $2.25M (after Royals cash)
Putz - $3M
Vizquel - $1.375M
Jones - $500K
---------------
Total - $10.125M

For reference - Peavy + Rios - $25.2M

Even though guys got raises, it doesn't add up. Jerry did marginally add to the payroll, but I can't see any reason why he wouldn't have OKed one more impact bat at market prices, especially after losing 2 RBI guys after last year.

You're also not considering the length of those contracts. Bay and Figgins were locked up for several years, and both moves are going to come back and haunt those clubs. Staying away from those two players with the contracts they garnered was a good idea.

munchman33
05-08-2010, 07:07 PM
First, Teahan is at 3.75 million then 4.75 and then 5.5; Why Williams signed this guy long term is bizarre, especially at such an inflated rate.
You illustrate what I've been saying....you throw away money on lousy hitters, that you could have used for an impact hitter. Just add a little Castro (ozzie-style .300 obp), Kotsay and Vizquel to the mix and you can get a legitimate hitter. And then if you consider that Williams was willing to spend an extra $5 mill or so, we could have gotten 2 legitimate hitters.
Instead, we get 5 hitters who, while "aggressive" can't seem to get on base much.

Exactly. Now if Kenny thought he'd better stock up on those guys because better hitters would be way out of their price range, then the strategy makes sense. But it didn't play out that way, he totally misjudged things.