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View Full Version : I am so ready for a FIRESALE!!


Rockabilly
05-04-2010, 11:57 PM
Would love to see these following people traded
Konerko
Jones
Jenks
AJ
Teahen
Linebrink
Putz
Castro
Alexei
Garcia
Quentin
Pierre

Hopefully trading off these guys will bring in a lot of new fresh young exciting talent. Because this team is dead.

WhiteSox1989
05-04-2010, 11:58 PM
Seriously, dude?

october23sp
05-04-2010, 11:58 PM
Would love to see these following people traded
Konerko
Jones
Jenks
AJ
Teahen
Linebrink
Putz
Castro
Alexei
Garcia
Quentin
Pierre

Hopefully trading off these will bring in a lot of new fresh exciting talent. Because this team is dead.

We don't need to dump the team but I'd like Jenks, Teahen, Linebrink, Putz, Castro, and Pierre outta here.

GoGoCrede
05-04-2010, 11:59 PM
This is a joke to raise our spirits, yes?

If not...:?:...

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:02 AM
Seriously, dude?

I am dead serious..

We're not going to win anything this season and Konerko, AJ, Jones and Putz will all be free agents in the off season, so I rather get some young talent for next year squad.

The rest of them are pretty much bums

GoGoCrede
05-05-2010, 12:03 AM
I am dead serious..

We're not going to win anything this season and Konerko, AJ, Jones and Putz will all be free agents in the off season, so I rather get some young talent for next year squad.

The rest of them are pretty much bums

I don't even.....what?

It's May. And good luck getting even 10K people to show up per game if we get rid of these guys.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:05 AM
I don't even.....what?

It's May. And good luck getting even 10K people to show up per game if we get rid of these guys.


Dude we had about 11,000 at the game tonight with these people.

WhiteSox1989
05-05-2010, 12:07 AM
Dude we had about 11,000 at the game tonight with these people.
Exactly. People aren't even showing up for this team, so how can the team expect for fans to show up if they dump basically the whole team, as you suggest.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:08 AM
We can't even beat Clev or K.C

Wait till we start facing the tougher teams its only going to get worse.. The Yankees sure did kick our asses this past weekend

GoGoCrede
05-05-2010, 12:08 AM
Exactly. People aren't even showing up for this team, so how can the team expect for fans to show up if they dump basically the whole team, as you suggest.

Especially PK. And what's Garcia done to warrant trading him away?

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:10 AM
Would love to see these following people traded
Konerko
Jones
Jenks
AJ
Teahen
Linebrink
Putz
Castro
Alexei
Garcia
Quentin
Pierre

Hopefully trading off these guys will bring in a lot of new fresh young exciting talent. Because this team is dead.

This post is broken. Please fix it.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:10 AM
Exactly. People aren't even showing up for this team, so how can the team expect for fans to show up if they dump basically the whole team, as you suggest.


because just maybe a young fresh talented team can bring some exciting wins.

I seemed to remember a great young squad in 1990 that lot of people didn't have faith in but they won about 94 games.

GoGoCrede
05-05-2010, 12:11 AM
because just maybe a young fresh talented team can bring some exciting wins.

I seemed to remember a great young squad in 1990 that lot of people didn't have faith in but they won about 94 games.

Ah, and here we go with comparing two teams that have nothing to do with each other. :thumbsup:

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:12 AM
So we stick with this lousy ball club win about 75 games than Konerko, AJ, Jones all leave in the off season and we get nothing to show for it.

doublem23
05-05-2010, 12:13 AM
I don't really see the point in trading Quentin. Right now, what could we possibly get for him? There's absolutely no way he nets anyone with a bigger upside than him. I know last year was frustrating and this year he's been awful, but we'd be selling low on him. He's only 27, he's got 2 years left of arbitration, if we're going to flush this season down the ****ter, we may as well see if he can turn it around.

Better to have him fail here than be traded and realize his potential elsewhere.

Slappy
05-05-2010, 12:13 AM
I'm with you Rockabilly. I hate this team so much right now.

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:14 AM
So we stick with this lousy ball club win about 75 games than Konerko, AJ, Jones all leave in the off season and we get nothing to show for it.

So let's just trade the entire major league roster!

You're pissed. We get it. But at least suggest something logical or even possible.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:18 AM
So let's just trade the entire major league roster!

You're pissed. We get it. But at least suggest something logical or even possible.


There are some fine young talent on this team such as Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Beckham, Santos, Thornton, and Rios.

jabrch
05-05-2010, 12:19 AM
The only thing less entertaining than the thought of that firesale is the thought of how terrible the remaining club would be. I have the patience for complete rebuilding - and for sucking for 3 years to do so. Do you?

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:19 AM
There are some fine young talent on this team such as Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Beckham, Santos, Thornton, and Rios.

Wow. You want to keep a total of eight players? Such restraint.

Also, Buehrle and Thornton are not young.

KMcMahon817
05-05-2010, 12:20 AM
Pierre has looked really good this series. Give the guy a chance, he seems to be coming around. What he does on the basepaths is special and he has shown that the past few days.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:22 AM
Wow. You want to keep a total of eight players? Such restraint.

Also, Buehrle and Thornton are not young.


I think 31 is still young for a pitcher.

what players on this current roster would you want to bring back for next year?

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:22 AM
Pierre has looked really good this series. Give the guy a chance, he seems to be coming around. What he does on the basepaths is special and he has shown that the past few days.


he's a great 4th OF

KMcMahon817
05-05-2010, 12:23 AM
he's a great 4th OF


It's not even worth having a conversation with you right now.

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:24 AM
I think 31 is still young for a pitcher.

what players on this current roster would you want to bring back for next year?

Rios, Jones, Beckham, Konerko, Alexei, AJ, Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Santos, Thornton and Pena.

Also, this is Buehrle's tenth full MLB season. That's pretty veteran by anyone's standards.

KMcMahon817
05-05-2010, 12:25 AM
Rios, Jones, Beckham, Konerko, Alexei, AJ, Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Santos, Thornton and Pena.

No Putz?

Noneck
05-05-2010, 12:26 AM
Would love to see these following people traded
Konerko
Jones
Jenks
AJ
Teahen
Linebrink
Putz
Castro
Alexei
Garcia
Quentin
Pierre

Hopefully trading off these guys will bring in a lot of new fresh young exciting talent. Because this team is dead.

I see some negative worth in this list. And the rest not worth much.

CHISOXFAN13
05-05-2010, 12:26 AM
The ****ty thing is, if the Sox continue to play below average baseball and fall further back, come the trade deadline, there isn't a whole hell of a lot that would be attractive to contending teams.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:26 AM
Rios, Jones, Beckham, Konerko, Alexei, AJ, Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Jenks, Santos, Thornton and Pena.


How much are you willing to pay Konerko,Jones and AJ to bring them all back? Also Jenks will be around 9M next season.

I would love to see Santos get the shot at the closer spot for next season

I did forget about Pena. I would bring him back as well

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:27 AM
No Putz?

I knew I was forgetting someone. Yeah, Putz too.

GoGoCrede
05-05-2010, 12:27 AM
Why would you want to trade Garcia, who's arguably our second-best starter at this point in the season? Also, I'm surprised Gavin wasn't on your list.

doublem23
05-05-2010, 12:28 AM
I think 31 is still young for a pitcher.

what players on this current roster would you want to bring back for next year?

Buehrle may only be 31 but he's got a lot of miles on that arm. 2098.1 IP is 9th most among active pitchers. If he hits 200 IP again this year (as he has done in every full season in the Majors) he will be around 6th or 7th.

Thornton will be 34 by the time the season ends.

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:29 AM
How much are you willing to pay Konerko,Jones and AJ to bring them all back? Also Jenks will be around 9M next season.

I don't care, I'm not paying them. And you act like they're all going to pull $10m+ from us.

The point is, you're massively overreacting.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:30 AM
Buehrle may only be 31 but he's got a lot of miles on that arm. 2098.1 IP is 9th most among active pitchers. If he hits 200 IP again this year (as he has done in every full season in the Majors) he will be around 6th or 7th.

Thornton will be 34 by the time the season ends.


Wasn't Glavine around the same amount of innings as Buehrle at the age of 31?

JB98
05-05-2010, 12:31 AM
This is silly. You can't go the "play the kids" route when you don't have any kids who can play worth a ****.

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2010, 12:31 AM
Do you even realize that nobody is looking for veterans in May? There's a reason you don't see big trades at this time of year. You'd get less than nothing for them if you could find anybody interested.

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:32 AM
Wasn't Glavine around the same amount of innings as Buehrle at the age of 31?

Point being?

Not every pitcher goes until he's 40. As a matter of fact, Buehrle has expressed a desire to possibly retire after his current contract ends. He's been in baseball a long time.

GoGoCrede
05-05-2010, 12:33 AM
Wasn't Glavine around the same amount of innings as Buehrle at the age of 31?

Again...you really can't compare things like that.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:37 AM
I would use Konerko money this off season and go after Crawford

Would use Jenks & Jones money and go after Dunn

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2010, 12:38 AM
I would use Konerko money this off season and go after Crawford

Would use Jenks & Jones money and go after DunnCrawford isn't going anywhere, and certainly not for Konerko money. And Jones isn't making very much.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:40 AM
Crawford isn't going anywhere, and certainly not for Konerko money. And Jones isn't making very much.

Crawford is a free agent this off season. Jones will be making a few million bucks going into next season

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:43 AM
Crawford is a free agent this off season. Jones will be making a few million bucks going into next season

This has zero impact on the Sox this year. Trading Jones saves approximately $500,000, minus the salary of who we get in return. And that adds up to jack in MLB money.

Noneck
05-05-2010, 12:43 AM
Would use Jenks & Jones money and go after Dunn

You do realize the only players making less than Jones on the team are Nix, Beckham and Williams.
Jones is only getting 500k. He is a total non factor with regards to salary.

doublem23
05-05-2010, 12:44 AM
Crawford isn't going anywhere, and certainly not for Konerko money. And Jones isn't making very much.

Crawford is going somewhere, but it won't be here because he is going to get his mother****ing movie check.

P.S. I think we've entered into the world of WTS.

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:45 AM
You do realize the only players making less than Jones on the team are Nix, Beckham and Williams.
Jones is only getting 500k. He is a total non factor with regards to salary.


I am talking about next year salary for Jones. I'm pretty sure that he won't be making 500k next season

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2010, 12:45 AM
Crawford is a free agent this off season. Jones will be making a few million bucks going into next seasonI understand that Crawford is a free agent after the season. My point is that he is not going to be signed for anywhere near Konerko type of money. If he is not re-signed by the Rays, there will be a bidding war that will push him way past what Konerko makes.

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2010, 12:48 AM
I am talking about next year salary for Jones. I'm pretty sure that he won't be making 500k next seasonAs far as I know, he's on a one-year contract. So all you'd save by trading him now is the pro-rated portion of this year's 500K.

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:48 AM
I am talking about next year salary for Jones. I'm pretty sure that he won't be making 500k next season

Well, that's all hypothetical. Crawford is most likely going to pull in more than 20 million a year from somebody. If having him means having a Konerko and Andruw Jones-sized hole at 1B and DH (because Jones is gone in your scenario, too), the move is lateral at best, and likely a step backward.

Rohan
05-05-2010, 12:49 AM
Please save the fantasy style managing for your fantasy baseball team.

And now for my annual response to the annual firesale thread...

http://progressiveboink.com/justin/arrested/firesale.jpg
"WE'RE HAVING A FIRE!...SALE..."

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:49 AM
As far as I know, he's on a one-year contract. So all you'd save by trading him now is the pro-rated portion of this year's 500K.

Somebody mentioned bringing Jones back next season. So I was using his salary for next season probably around 4M or so plus Jenks salary to bring in our DH Adam Dunn

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2010, 12:51 AM
Somebody mentioned bringing Jones back next season. So I was using his salary for next season probably around 4M or so plus Jenks salary to bring in our DH Adam DunnOkay, do whatever you want. The fact remains that you aren't going to get squat for any of them in May.

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:52 AM
Somebody mentioned bringing Jones back next season. So I was using his salary for next season probably around 4M or so plus Jenks salary to bring in our DH Adam Dunn

This is getting ridiculous. You're assuming a lot of things, including Dunn's desire to play here, and his salary demands. Just because you want someone and have the money for them, doesn't mean that there aren't 29 other teams that might be bidding for them.

It's just not that easy to be a GM.

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2010, 12:54 AM
This is getting ridiculous. You're assuming a lot of things, including Dunn's desire to play here, and his salary demands. Just because you want someone and have the money for them, doesn't mean that there aren't 29 other teams that might be bidding for them.

It's just not that easy to be a GM.That is another excellent point. Why would a top free agent want to come to a team that just dumped half of its major league roster?

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:56 AM
this season is pretty much DEAD.. So yes I am looking for ways to make next season squad a lot better than this piece of **** team

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 12:58 AM
That is another excellent point. Why would a top free agent want to come to a team that just dumped half of its major league roster?


Dunn had a desire to go to Washington for a few years.

Boondock Saint
05-05-2010, 12:58 AM
this season is pretty much DEAD.. So yes I am looking for ways to make next season squad a lot better than this piece of **** team

Well, you can scratch "ritual sacrifice" off of the list.

WhiteSox1989
05-05-2010, 01:03 AM
this season is pretty much DEAD.. So yes I am looking for ways to make next season squad a lot better than this piece of **** team
Yeah, but getting rid of a bunch of players like Quentin isn't going to help much. Plus you're making an assessment of the players in May.

Noneck
05-05-2010, 01:03 AM
this season is pretty much DEAD.. So yes I am looking for ways to make next season squad a lot better than this piece of **** team

I understand the frustration but this is not the time to back up the truck. Nothing would be accomplished by doing that now. If the situation stays the same, the time will come when backing up the truck will make sense.

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2010, 01:24 AM
this season is pretty much DEAD.. So yes I am looking for ways to make next season squad a lot better than this piece of **** teamThen you don't make the trades now when you don't get anything in return. If you're writing off this season anyway, then you wait until the pennant races are heating up and teams are looking for short-term improvements to push them over the top.

To sum up:



Trade everybody now, have a really bad team for the rest of the year, get nothing in return, hoping to sign big-name free agents during the off season. OR:
Keep everybody for now, have the season you have, then if it's as bad as you think, trade them near the deadline when you can get something for next year.


Which looks like the better choice?

NLaloosh
05-05-2010, 04:55 AM
I've never said this before but I'm so disgusted by this 2010 team that I would like to see, for 2011, a new GM, new manager and 25 new players.

Seriously.

Lillian
05-05-2010, 06:36 AM
I share your frustration, Rockabilly, as do many of us. Those who argue that it's too early for a firesale have a point. However, if the team is still not winning as the time approaches when the market for players improves, what kinds of trades could be made?

Why not trade the guys whose contracts are expiring? Players like Konerko, Jones, Jenks, A.J., will all have to be resigned, and that may not be the thing to do. Do we really want to pay big money for any of these guys, considering their ages, or recent performance levels?

Trading them to contenders could net a bundle of young prospects to replenish our farm system, and hopefully a few guys ready to make the jump to the Big Leagues. It would also reduce payroll to afford the possibility of acquiring more desirable free agents, and resign people like John Danks.

Would it really be so bad to go with a young team built around a few core veterans like Rios, and Peavy and young players, a few years away from free agency, like Beckham and Quentin? Moreover, I understand that this year's draft is considered to be loaded with good talent. Looks like we may have a pretty good shot at some high picks.

I would be very interested to see the kinds of suggestions we could make for personnel changes of that nature. At least it would divert our attention away from watching these pathetic performances.

DumpJerry
05-05-2010, 06:40 AM
This thread is pure comedy gold.


People are forgetting that on July 15, 2006, the Twins were 12 games out of first place. I'm sure their fans were saying about their team what we're saying about ours this year.

kittle42
05-05-2010, 06:55 AM
I'm just as concerned with the manager (and, to a bit lesser extent, the GM) as I am the roster.

cws05champ
05-05-2010, 07:23 AM
Then you don't make the trades now when you don't get anything in return. If you're writing off this season anyway, then you wait until the pennant races are heating up and teams are looking for short-term improvements to push them over the top.

To sum up:



Trade everybody now, have a really bad team for the rest of the year, get nothing in return, hoping to sign big-name free agents during the off season. OR:
Keep everybody for now, have the season you have, then if it's as bad as you think, trade them near the deadline when you can get something for next year.


Which looks like the better choice?
Exactly...in fact if you trade guys now you will decrease your chances to bring in free agents next year.
1) Guys don't want to come to a really crappy team unless it's the last resort.
2) Dumping everyone now would decrease attendance which in turn would affect the amount that Management will spend on next years payroll. That has been stated by JR over and over again.

I see this the complete opposite...if the Sox are out of it and some of the guys continue to play decently then the Sox do have a lot of chips to trade without completely gutting the team for 2011.
> Jones would be very attractive to many teams because he is playing well, has power and is making nothing...teams like that.
> Putz is on a one year deal and would be cheap rental of about $1.2M from the trading deadline on.
> Jenks will not be coming back so I think they would try to trade him.
> Garcia wouldn't bring back a ton, but if he is pitching well you don't think a team like the Brewers would be willing to bring him in for the stretch.

No need to gut the whole team when you can get rid of a couple guys and not completely decimate the team for 2011.

asindc
05-05-2010, 07:56 AM
Dunn had a desire to go to Washington for a few years.

That's because he can play the field in the NL. He has repeatedly stated, as recently as the beginning of this season, that he has no interest in DHing. Question the logic of that all you want but that is what he wants, so no dice on signing him, especially after you have conducted a fire sale.

WizardsofOzzie
05-05-2010, 08:20 AM
Dunn had a desire to go to Washington for a few years.
Which was aided by his relationship with the Nationals GM, who was the former Reds GM that drafted Dunn

harwar
05-05-2010, 08:20 AM
the trade deadline is almost 3 months away .. that's a long time, but in 6 weeks or so something could happen .. if Paulie (he and Buehrle are my fav players) is still hitting, we might get a lot for him .. A.J.- Jenks - Putz - Jones also could be gone .. if the padres start losing they might want to trade Konerko b4 the Gonzalez feeding frenzy gets to heated .. this whole thing is my worst nightmare ..

Rockabilly
05-05-2010, 08:40 AM
I forget to mentioned 2 more players I want off this team, just release Kotsay and Williams..

khan
05-05-2010, 09:30 AM
People are forgetting that on July 15, 2006, the Twins were 12 games out of first place. I'm sure their fans were saying about their team what we're saying about ours this year.

And that Twins team had TONS more talent than this SOX team: Mauer, Morneau, and Hunter, to start. They also had Cuddyer with a breakout season, and Castillo as an actual leadoff hitter that could get on base. Does this SOX team have ANYONE as good as those players? I kind of doubt it.

On the pitching staff, they had ALL-WORLD Johan Santana, a young up-and-coming Francisco Liriano, some closer named Joe Nathan, and and youngster named Pat Neshek.

This SOX team has MAYBE 1 or 2 [EDIT] field players that could start for that Twins team: Rios and Jones. John Danks would make that team, and Thornton as well.

The overwhelming majority of this SOX team would not be starting for the 2006 Twins. Sorry, this SOX team isn't very good, unfortunately. TO compare the 2010 SOX to that Twins team that won 96 games is silly, at best.


While I don't [YET] advocate a firesale, the seeds of it were planted when Ozzie had too much say in the makeup of the team. This past offseason, many of us here could already foresee that this team was incomplete, and likely to fail. I STILL hope I'm wrong, but this roster has done NOTHING to dissuade my view of this team as being bad.

guillen4life13
05-05-2010, 09:58 AM
:threadsucks

jabrch
05-05-2010, 09:58 AM
Fans prove over and over again how poor they'd be as GMs.

pythons007
05-05-2010, 10:08 AM
If we do a fire sale now who in their right mind would trade for guys hitting .200 or have an ERA over 5? What the hell is the return going to be? Some douche who can't hit in the minors? Some dude serving up meatballs and couldn't get my grandmother out?

Everyone is frustrated, however its Cinco de Mayo, go have yourself a cervesa and take a freaking chill pill! Damn, this place is ****ing nuts! It's freaking early as hell and something has to change. The pitching staff isn't this bad, and no offense can sustain this underachieving for an entire year.

Take a look at the 3 year means of these players and that is most likely what you're going to get. I think more than half the fanbase has jumped off the ledge and plummetted to their death, and again it's only May 5th!

Once May ends or within the last week is when everyone can start bitching and planning their mass suicides. Good god people, thank your lucky stars we aren't the damn Royals or ****ing Pirates!!!!

Dibbs
05-05-2010, 10:19 AM
Would love to see these following people traded
Konerko
Jones
Jenks
AJ
Teahen
Linebrink
Putz
Castro
Alexei
Garcia
Quentin
Pierre

Hopefully trading off these guys will bring in a lot of new fresh young exciting talent. Because this team is dead.

It's actually not a terrible idea if we are 10 games out come June. Konerko's stock will never be higher. The only guy I would like to keep on that list is Quentin, and maybe Alexei too. The problem is we would not get much at all for the guys on this list.

tstrike2000
05-05-2010, 10:20 AM
This thread is pure comedy gold.


People are forgetting that on July 15, 2006, the Twins were 12 games out of first place. I'm sure their fans were saying about their team what we're saying about ours this year.

True, but I doubt their fans could've also predicted that both the Sox and Tigers would tank the way they would in the second half. Most notably the Tigers who had the worst record in baseball from August 1st on that year squandering the huge division lead. This year, assuming 88 games wins the division, the Sox will have to go 77-58 from this point forward. Is it possible? With our front 4 it's possible, but with our defense and inconsistent hitting, that's a pretty tall order. Any firesale, white flag at the beginning of May is ridiculous, but they better start moving forward soon.

russ99
05-05-2010, 10:21 AM
As a counterpoint - Just how far away are we from being a contending team right now?

We have 4 good starters, even though all starters are prone to a bad outing from time to time.

We have a good back end to the bullpen, with the front end sorting itself out, with Santos moving up and Pena falling off.

Our first baseman is leading the league in homers and slugging avg, and is second in RBIs.

We have a leadoff hitter with a career .300 BA, and is leading the majors in steals.

We have a CF with above average on both on offense and defense.

We have a OF/DH we picked up off the scrap heap and has performed well beyond expectations.

The problem is that Quentin (.176 ), A.J (.210). and Beckham (.212) haven't been getting it done. Given their talent and history, they should be able to do better.

DirtySox
05-05-2010, 10:26 AM
A firesale at this point would be pointless. There generally won't be much of a return on high salaried players such as Konerko, Jenks, or AJ (you can argue AJ isn't that expensive, but he surely isn't a hot commodity). If pieces are eventually moved, you might see average to worthwhile returns for Andruw Jones or JJ Putz. While I love Thornton, it might be time to sell high on him, in part due to his age. He would likely fetch a mighty bounty.

That said, there isn't much gained from blowing up this team save for salary relief and securing a worse record and a higher pick in the 2011 draft. I could give a **** less about salary relief unless some of that money is allocated to international scouting and the draft budget. The "kids" that could be called up would be Flowers, Hudson, and maybe Danks. They could become fine major league players, but none of them are even close to elite talent.

Blowing this team up isn't some magic cure-all. I wouldn't be against some sort of rebuild, especially if the organization finally realizes the importance of homegrown player development. I could stand for that, but there are plenty of people that wouldn't.

doublem23
05-05-2010, 10:49 AM
This thread is pure comedy gold.


People are forgetting that on July 15, 2006, the Twins were 12 games out of first place. I'm sure their fans were saying about their team what we're saying about ours this year.

They were also still 9 games over .500 at that point and were loaded with young talent. Yeah, in the end all that matters is where you are relative to everyone else, but if you're talking about blowing a team up, you got to take a look at your roster, too. The 1983 Sox comparisons and 2005 Astros comparisons that keep coming up are silly... 2006 Twins? They were light years ahead of us.

khan
05-05-2010, 10:51 AM
As a counterpoint - Just how far away are we from being a contending team right now?
Based on how good Minnesota is, I'd say the SOX are pretty far away.

Heck, this team couldn't beat Cleveland, so I kind of doubt that this year's SOX are better than even the likely runner-up-in-the-ALC Detroit.


We have 4 good starters, even though all starters are prone to a bad outing from time to time. We have a good back end to the bullpen, with the front end sorting itself out, with Santos moving up and Pena falling off.
Are they REALLY 4 good starters or not? Buehrle hasn't exactly been stellar since the perfecto. Peavey had ONE nice start, but otherwise has been ordinary. Floyd has been ordinary. Only Danks has been living up to the reputation.

Bullpens tend to wax and wane over the course of a season, with 2005 being a notable exception.

Our first baseman is leading the league in homers and slugging avg, and is second in RBIs. We have a leadoff hitter with a career .300 BA, and is leading the majors in steals. We have a CF with above average on both on offense and defense. We have a OF/DH we picked up off the scrap heap and has performed well beyond expectations.
Great. Now, does anyone actually belive that Konerko WON'T go through his annual 6 to 8 weeks of hitting like ****? Or that the OF/DH will continue this early trend? Even if both of these two early trends continue, the Twins are better than the SOX at virtually every position on the field. Definitely @ C, 1B, 2B, 3B, LF, RF, and DH, the Twins are better than the SOX.

The problem is that Quentin (.176 ), A.J (.210). and Beckham (.212) haven't been getting it done. Given their talent and history, they should be able to do better.
With Beckham, we don't have much of a history to go by. I hope that this is just a sophomore slump, and NOT a better indication of what kind of player he will become.

I'm starting to believe that Quentin might be a one-year wonder, and even if he ISN'T, he's a china doll whose history has shown that he WILL get injured.

AJ has played a lot of games, and maybe he's just done. He wouldn't be the FIRST catcher that was done @ 33 years old.

TheOldRoman
05-05-2010, 11:42 AM
And that Twins team had TONS more talent than this SOX team: Mauer, Morneau, and Hunter, to start. They also had Cuddyer with a breakout season, and Castillo as an actual leadoff hitter that could get on base. Does this SOX team have ANYONE as good as those players? I kind of doubt it.

On the pitching staff, they had ALL-WORLD Johan Santana, a young up-and-coming Francisco Liriano, some closer named Joe Nathan, and and youngster named Pat Neshek.

This SOX team has MAYBE 1 or 2 [EDIT] field players that could start for that Twins team: Rios and Jones. John Danks would make that team, and Thornton as well.

The overwhelming majority of this SOX team would not be starting for the 2006 Twins. Sorry, this SOX team isn't very good, unfortunately. TO compare the 2010 SOX to that Twins team that won 96 games is silly, at best.


While I don't [YET] advocate a firesale, the seeds of it were planted when Ozzie had too much say in the makeup of the team. This past offseason, many of us here could already foresee that this team was incomplete, and likely to fail. I STILL hope I'm wrong, but this roster has done NOTHING to dissuade my view of this team as being bad.Ok, hyperbole is fun, but I decided to take a look at the Twins' roster from 2006. The the Twins would have started the following players over their own"

Teahen over Punto(!)
Pierre or Rios over Lou Ford
Jones over Rondell White
Beckham over Luis Castillo (despite his cold start, they would do that in a heartbeat)

Any one of Buehrle, Peavy, Danks and Floyd would replace anyone not names Santana or Liriano for the 16 starts he made. In addition to Thornton, Putz would have made their bullpen, and of course Jenks if we aren't talking about him replacing Nathan.

Of course, the key thing people igonre in their "donttalkabout good teamz who wur bad and then became good and stuff cuz this team sux!!1!" rants are that, at the start of the season, the Twins looked like crap. Obviously they had some good players, but nobody would have ever thought that team would win the division looking at the way they played or their 11-18 record on May 5. I am not saying that the Sox are going to storm back and win the division, but it is more than a little ridiculous that people have declared the season over already.

Lip Man 1
05-05-2010, 11:51 AM
It's impossible to make any kind of major changes at this point in the season, if this team continues to go down the toilet, Kenny of course, will have the phone lines open.

It's pretty hard today to do things like the Padres did in the early 90's (I forget the exact year) where they basically sold off half the team during the year (i.e. McGriff, Sheffield, Fernandez and three or four other guys).

The questions that Kenny has to ask himself is, would the Sox get any kind of reasonable return for their players?, would trading off half the team (if it could be done) turn U.S. Cellular Field into a ghost town? How would that affect next year's budget? and finally how would he rationalize this to himself and his frequent comments about "contending every year..." "the day I don't think we can win, I'll let you know" and the always popular, "if your not the last team standing, I'm sorry, you just haven't had that good of a year..."

This is a case where Kenny's comments to the mainstream media could come back to haunt him as if he were able to execute a "fire sale" people would start asking, "who put them in this situation in the first place?"

Lot of things to factor in here.

My guess is that if by mid-June the Sox have no hope of finishing the year over .500 based on the way they are playng, he will ship out three or four guys if he can, but not even close to the dozen or so as suggested originally in this thread.

Lip

PalehosePlanet
05-05-2010, 11:56 AM
Ok, hyperbole is fun, but I decided to take a look at the Twins' roster from 2006. The the Twins would have started the following players over their own"

Teahen over Punto(!)
Pierre or Rios over Lou Ford
Jones over Rondell White
Beckham over Luis Castillo (despite his cold start, they would do that in a heartbeat)

Any one of Buehrle, Peavy, Danks and Floyd would replace anyone not names Santana or Liriano for the 16 starts he made. In addition to Thornton, Putz would have made their bullpen, and of course Jenks if we aren't talking about him replacing Nathan.

Of course, the key thing people igonre in their "donttalkabout good teamz who wur bad and then became good and stuff cuz this team sux!!1!" rants are that, at the start of the season, the Twins looked like crap. Obviously they had some good players, but nobody would have ever thought that team would win the division looking at the way they played or their 11-18 record on May 5. I am not saying that the Sox are going to storm back and win the division, but it is more than a little ridiculous that people have declared the season over already.

Thank you; well put. I was going to respond myself, but I probably would have been banned for life.

kittle42
05-05-2010, 12:04 PM
That's because he can play the field in the NL. He has repeatedly stated, as recently as the beginning of this season, that he has no interest in DHing.

Sounds like a perfect fit for a manager who also doesn't want a DH.

chisoxjtrain
05-05-2010, 12:16 PM
My girlfriend, who doesn't know **** about baseball, looked at this thread and said "Hmmm, this looks dumb." I have to agree with her.

Why on earth would you want to part with the people who produce? The Sox probably have a really good chance at resigning Konerko who is leading the league in home runs and slugging. Andruw Jones is producing. Garcia is currently the second best starter on the team. Futhermore, trading people in May will get the Sox nothing in return. You say you want the kids to play, but the kids the Sox would get from these trades you are proposing would clearly not be major league ready and sink the Sox further into oblivion.

khan
05-05-2010, 12:22 PM
Ok, hyperbole is fun, but I decided to take a look at the Twins' roster from 2006. The the Twins would have started the following players over their own"
OK, remember that the TWINS have a superior scouting staff and a superior player development system before you consider my responses to the following. There are players that the Twins would NEVER SIGN, because of the players' tendencies being counter to the Twins' baseball philosophy.

In other words, if a player can't catch a cold, or is baseball-stupid, or refuses to take a walk, that player simply won't be on their team. With that said:

Teahen over Punto(!)
Dead wrong. Teahen can't catch well enough to play for Minnesota. He isn't exactly a big improvement offensively over Punto, either.

Pierre or Rios over Lou Ford
Agreed about Rios; Disagreed about Pierre. Pierre Ks too much and doesn't play defense well enough to be a Twin. He also doesn't walk enough to be a Twin.

Jones over Rondell White
Jones also got off to a hot start in Texas last year. It's a bit early to proclaim him as a born-again star, IMO.

Beckham over Luis Castillo (despite his cold start, they would do that in a heartbeat)
Over the course of a career, perhaps. For 2006 only, I highly disagree. Castillo in 2006 was still an adequate leadoff man, albeit on the downside of his career. Castillo in 2006 was just off an All Star game appearance and a Gold Glove in 2005. Beckham has neither of these two things, YET.

In fact, it is entirely possible that Beckham may NEVER have an All Star Game appearance, nor a Gold Glove, based on his current level of performance. [EDIT] I wouldn't bet on it, but exactly what has Beckham shown us since ~August or so of last season to suggest that he's any good? Beckham's been closer to Lillibridge in his performance than he has been to Sandberg since August.

Any one of Buehrle, Peavy, Danks and Floyd would replace anyone not names Santana or Liriano for the 16 starts he made.
Buehrle is something like 4-11 since the perfecto, with an ERA closer to 5 than to 4, last time I checked. Right NOW, Buehrle is more sizzle than steak, or more reputation than actual performance. [I KNOW this is anathema, BUT] Until he regains his form, Mark Buehrle is [CURRENTLY] over rated.

Peavy has had ONE good start this year. Let's see him do it a few more times before we hold the Cy Young Award [in the big-boy AL] press conference. Peavy's reputation again dwarfs his current level of performance. He too is [currently] over rated.

Floyd has been every bit as average as any of the Twins' SPs from that season. His numbers simply aren't much better than a garden-variety #3 SP right now. Yes, he's made a marvelous turnaround in fortunes since he arrived from philly. But RIGHT NOW, he's average.

Only Danks has shown himself to be worthy of the hype hereto fore. He's actually underrated, IMO.

In addition to Thornton, Putz would have made their bullpen, and of course Jenks if we aren't talking about him replacing Nathan.
Definitely Thornton, but I'm not sold on Jenks and his "I-won't-bother-to-focus-on-non-save-appearances" bull****. Putz has been promising, I'll agree.

Of course, the key thing people igonre in their "donttalkabout good teamz who wur bad and then became good and stuff cuz this team sux!!1!" rants are that, at the start of the season, the Twins looked like crap. Obviously they had some good players, but nobody would have ever thought that team would win the division looking at the way they played or their 11-18 record on May 5. I am not saying that the Sox are going to storm back and win the division, but it is more than a little ridiculous that people have declared the season over already.
OK, so EXACTLY what evidence do you have that this year's SOX team will be in the same UNIVERSE as that 96 win Twins team? That Twins team had 3 All Stars, the eventual AL MVP, and a solid roster.

Even if you disagree with my assessment of this SOX team as being under-talented, exactly WHAT have the SOX shown you that they will win 96 games, the division, and produce the MVP? Or how will the SOX with a middling in-game manager out perform that 2006 Twins team with the superior in-game manager in Ron Gardenhire?


I'm fascinated to read your thoughts.

WhiteSox5187
05-05-2010, 12:28 PM
OK, remember that the TWINS have a superior scouting staff and a superior player development system before you consider my responses to the following. There are players that the Twins would NEVER SIGN, because of the players' tendencies being counter to the Twins' baseball philosophy.

In other words, if a player can't catch a cold, or is baseball-stupid, or refuses to take a walk, that player simply won't be on their team. With that said:


Dead wrong. Teahen can't catch well enough to play for Minnesota. He isn't exactly a big improvement offensively over Punto, either.


Agreed about Rios; Disagreed about Pierre. Pierre Ks too much and doesn't play defense well enough to be a Twin. He also doesn't walk enough to be a Twin.


Jones also got off to a hot start in Texas last year. It's a bit early to proclaim him as a born-again star, IMO.


Over the course of a career, perhaps. For 2006 only, I highly disagree. Castillo in 2006 was still an adequate leadoff man, albeit on the downside of his career. Castillo in 2006 was just off an All Star game appearance and a Gold Glove in 2005. Beckham has neither of these two things, YET.

In fact, it is entirely possible that Beckham may NEVER have an All Star Game appearance, nor a Gold Glove, based on his current level of performance. [EDIT] I wouldn't bet on it, but exactly what has Beckham shown us since ~August or so of last season to suggest that he's any good? Beckham's been closer to Lillibridge in his performance than he has been to Sandberg since August.


Buehrle is something like 4-11 since the perfecto, with an ERA closer to 5 than to 4, last time I checked. Right NOW, Buehrle is more sizzle than steak, or more reputation than actual performance. [I KNOW this is anathema, BUT] Until he regains his form, Mark Buehrle is over rated.

Peavy has had ONE good start this year. Let's see him do it a few more times before we hold the Cy Young Award [in the big-boy AL] press conference. Peavy's reputation again dwarfs his current level of performance. He too is [currently] over rated.

Floyd has been every bit as average as any of the Twins' SPs from that season. His numbers simply aren't much better than a garden-variety #3 SP right now. Yes, he's made a marvelous turnaround in fortunes since he arrived from philly. But RIGHT NOW, he's average.

Only Danks has shown himself to be worthy of the hype hereto fore. He's actually underrated, IMO.


Definitely Thornton, but I'm not sold on Jenks and his "I-won't-bother-to-focus-on-non-save-appearances" bull****. Putz has been promising, I'll agree.


OK, so EXACTLY what evidence do you have that this year's SOX team will be in the same UNIVERSE as that 96 win Twins team? That Twins team had 3 All Stars, the eventual AL MVP, and a solid roster.

Even if you disagree with my assessment of this SOX team as being under-talented, exactly WHAT have the SOX shown you that they will win 96 games, the division, and produce the MVP? Or how will the SOX with a middling in-game manager out perform that 2006 Twins team with the superior in-game manager in Ron Gardenhire?


I'm fascinated to read your thoughts.

That Twins team had the AL MVP and the AL Cy Young...I don't think our Sox will have iether of those and I don't htink this Sox team is going to wind up winning 96 games either. But I would LOVE to be wrong about that.

khan
05-05-2010, 12:31 PM
That Twins team had the AL MVP and the AL Cy Young...I don't think our Sox will have iether of those and I don't htink this Sox team is going to wind up winning 96 games either. But I would LOVE to be wrong about that.

Not only that, but the 2006 Twins won an AL Central that was THEN the best division in baseball. The Tigers won 95 games, and the 2006 SOX won 90.

I'd LOVE to be wrong about this team, too. But I [and many others here] saw this trainwreck coming during this past offseason.

Moses_Scurry
05-05-2010, 12:36 PM
I don't think I'd shed a tear (other than maybe for 2005 nostalgia) if the OP list was traded. I would probably keep Quentin and Ramirez unless there was a really good offer for them, but otherwise they can all go. I'd definitely wait until closer to the trade deadline in order to maximize value. It seems like Jones should be able to bring in a pretty decent prospect package (assuming he continues to play well) from a contender, considering he would essentially be free for them.

WhiteSox5187
05-05-2010, 01:09 PM
Not only that, but the 2006 Twins won an AL Central that was THEN the best division in baseball. The Tigers won 95 games, and the 2006 SOX won 90.

I'd LOVE to be wrong about this team, too. But I [and many others here] saw this trainwreck coming during this past offseason.

I really don't think anyone thought that they would be THIS bad. Some people were saying we might win the divison, but nobody thought we'd be as god awful as we are.

WhiteSox1989
05-05-2010, 01:12 PM
I thought the Sox were going to go undefeated. I was slightly off.

TheOldRoman
05-05-2010, 01:25 PM
Dead wrong. Teahen can't catch well enough to play for Minnesota. He isn't exactly a big improvement offensively over Punto, either.No. Not only is Teahen a big improvement offensively, he is not as bad as you think defensively. Also, the Twins aren't the epicenter of defense. Their defense in 08 was among the worst in the league, from what I remember. Teahen is decent defensively, takes walks, and is a great baserunner. You can crap on Teahen all you want, but anyone who has actually seen Punto play or looked at his stats knows you are dead wrong here.

Agreed about Rios; Disagreed about Pierre. Pierre Ks too much and doesn't play defense well enough to be a Twin. He also doesn't walk enough to be a Twin.Umm, Juan Pierre averages 38 strikeouts per 162 games. Not only is that not high, it is considerably lower than such Twins standouts as Punto (91) and Lew Ford (77). Pierre doesn't take many walks, but Ford got on base at a .287 rate that year. Pierre is not bad defensively outside of his arm. He would start over Ford.

Jones also got off to a hot start in Texas last year. It's a bit early to proclaim him as a born-again star, IMO.RON. DELL. WHITE. Seriously, Rondell White.

Over the course of a career, perhaps. For 2006 only, I highly disagree. Castillo in 2006 was still an adequate leadoff man, albeit on the downside of his career. Castillo in 2006 was just off an All Star game appearance and a Gold Glove in 2005. Beckham has neither of these two things, YET.

In fact, it is entirely possible that Beckham may NEVER have an All Star Game appearance, nor a Gold Glove, based on his current level of performance. [EDIT] I wouldn't bet on it, but exactly what has Beckham shown us since ~August or so of last season to suggest that he's any good? Beckham's been closer to Lillibridge in his performance than he has been to Sandberg since August.Beckham will likely come close to the numbers Castillo put up that year, except with many more doubles and homers. Yes, his current numbers are bad. He also struggled at the end of last year becuase the Sox were unable to give him any days off and he wasn't used to playing so much or so late into the year. He is an extremely talented player. He was bad in August, but his numbers rebounded substantially in September. The fact that he is at the top of the lineup and nobody else is hitting haven't helped him, either. Also, since August, Beckham's OBP is .20 behind Sandberg's career (.344) and .66 ahead of Lillibridge (.258), so... yeah.

Buehrle is something like 4-11 since the perfecto, with an ERA closer to 5 than to 4, last time I checked. Right NOW, Buehrle is more sizzle than steak, or more reputation than actual performance. [I KNOW this is anathema, BUT] Until he regains his form, Mark Buehrle is [CURRENTLY] over rated.

Peavy has had ONE good start this year. Let's see him do it a few more times before we hold the Cy Young Award [in the big-boy AL] press conference. Peavy's reputation again dwarfs his current level of performance. He too is [currently] over rated.

Floyd has been every bit as average as any of the Twins' SPs from that season. His numbers simply aren't much better than a garden-variety #3 SP right now. Yes, he's made a marvelous turnaround in fortunes since he arrived from philly. But RIGHT NOW, he's average.

Only Danks has shown himself to be worthy of the hype hereto fore. He's actually underrated, IMO.So, basically everybody sucks unless they threw a complete game shutout in their last game. Carlos Silva, Boof Boner, Scott Baker and Brad Radke would top all of them. If only the Twins would have known their rotation was that good, they could have probably won a lot more games.

Even if you disagree with my assessment of this SOX team as being under-talented, exactly WHAT have the SOX shown you that they will win 96 games, the division, and produce the MVP? Or how will the SOX with a middling in-game manager out perform that 2006 Twins team with the superior in-game manager in Ron Gardenhire?


I'm fascinated to read your thoughts. I never said the Sox will win 96 games, the division, or produce an MVP. That seems to be your criteria. The Sox haven't looked good, otherwise this thread wouldn't be here. I think the Sox are much much better than they have looked thusfar. They will improve a good deal. Will they win the division? I don't know. Will they win 96 games? I don't know, but I don't think they will have to inorder to win the division. Will they produce an MVP? 3-4 AL teams make the playoffs each year without producing an MVP. Carlos Quentin was the 2008 MVP before he got injured, so if he can get out of his slump, it wouldn't exactly be as improbable as Verne Troyer making the NBA.

So, in conclusion, you say that all the Sox players are horrible while ignoring glaring flaws on many of those Twins players. I have found this exchange fascinating.

asindc
05-05-2010, 01:25 PM
And that Twins team had TONS more talent than this SOX team: Mauer, Morneau, and Hunter, to start. They also had Cuddyer with a breakout season, and Castillo as an actual leadoff hitter that could get on base. Does this SOX team have ANYONE as good as those players? I kind of doubt it.

On the pitching staff, they had ALL-WORLD Johan Santana, a young up-and-coming Francisco Liriano, some closer named Joe Nathan, and and youngster named Pat Neshek.

This SOX team has MAYBE 1 or 2 [EDIT] field players that could start for that Twins team: Rios and Jones. John Danks would make that team, and Thornton as well.

The overwhelming majority of this SOX team would not be starting for the 2006 Twins. Sorry, this SOX team isn't very good, unfortunately. TO compare the 2010 SOX to that Twins team that won 96 games is silly, at best.


While I don't [YET] advocate a firesale, the seeds of it were planted when Ozzie had too much say in the makeup of the team. This past offseason, many of us here could already foresee that this team was incomplete, and likely to fail. I STILL hope I'm wrong, but this roster has done NOTHING to dissuade my view of this team as being bad.

I would view this as just another frustrated rant if it did not come from someone whose grass-is-greener outlook leads to a preference of two extra playoff appearances with no playoff victories over a World Series title.

khan
05-05-2010, 01:52 PM
No. Not only is Teahen a big improvement offensively, he is not as bad as you think defensively. Also, the Twins aren't the epicenter of defense. Their defense in 08 was among the worst in the league, from what I remember. Teahen is decent defensively, takes walks, and is a great baserunner. You can crap on Teahen all you want, but anyone who has actually seen Punto play or looked at his stats knows you are dead wrong here.
Yes, I've seen Punto play, and I've looked at his stats. He really isn't that much worse offensively than Teahen. And I maintain that Teahen is the worse defender out of the two.

I think Teahen is more famous than good, thanks to him being in Moneyball. Teahen does get on base. But Teahen isn't exactly a >.900 OPS player. Nor will he be in a team for his glove.

Umm, Juan Pierre averages 38 strikeouts per 162 games.
Holy ****, I can't believe I posted that. You're absolutely right about Pierre not striking out. :redface:

Not only is that not high, it is considerably lower than such Twins standouts as Punto (91) and Lew Ford (77). Pierre doesn't take many walks, but Ford got on base at a .287 rate that year. Pierre is not bad defensively outside of his arm. He would start over Ford.
I disagree. He's garbage defensively. Of course, we as SOX fans may have forgotten what good OF defense looks like, given the many years of Pods before Pierre.

RON. DELL. WHITE. Seriously, Rondell White.
I simply don't trust Jones to continue this pace. Check back with us later this year.

Beckham will likely come close to the numbers Castillo put up that year, except with many more doubles and homers. Yes, his current numbers are bad. He also struggled at the end of last year becuase the Sox were unable to give him any days off and he wasn't used to playing so much or so late into the year. He is an extremely talented player. He was bad in August, but his numbers rebounded substantially in September. The fact that he is at the top of the lineup and nobody else is hitting haven't helped him, either. Also, since August, Beckham's OBP is .20 behind Sandberg's career (.344) and .66 ahead of Lillibridge (.258), so... yeah.

Great. Let us know when he starts being a reason for the SOX to WIN, rather than a cause for their losing. Offensively, Beckham is RIGHT NOW a below-average 2B, offensively-speaking. In 2006, Castillo was average to above-average.

We don't know for SURE if 2009 really represents Beckham's abilities, or 2010. I remember other White SOX rookies going on to have ****ty careers, so he wouldn't be unique if he did. I certainly hope and think that his 2009 is more representative of his ability, but we're not sure, YET.

Carlos Silva, Boof Boner, Scott Baker and Brad Radke would top all of them. If only the Twins would have known their rotation was that good, they could have probably won a lot more games.
And amazingly, that TWINS team won 96 games in a division with two other 90+ winning teams. It's great that we as fans like Buehrle and Peavy and Floyd. But right now, these three aren't pitching better than Silva or Bonser or Baker did in 2006. They eventually MIGHT, or they might not.

Like it or not, Buehrle IS 4-11, with a 4.95 ERA since the perfecto. Like it or not, Peavy has had 1 decent start. Buehrle's/Peavy's/Floyd's real performances thus far have not matched their reputations.

I never said the Sox will win 96 games, the division, or produce an MVP. That seems to be your criteria. The Sox haven't looked good, otherwise this thread wouldn't be here. I think the Sox are much much better than they have looked thusfar. They will improve a good deal. Will they win the division? I don't know. Will they win 96 games?
You can look at the individual names on a website, and compare players "on paper." But at the end of the day, you'll have to admit that the 2006 Twins were a FAR superior team than the 2010 SOX. They ACCOMPLISHED more that the 2010 SOX are capable of accomplishing. THE 2006 twins DID IT. They DID win 96 games. They DID win the ALC. They DID produce an MVP and a Cy Young.

I opine that the 2010 SOX are incapable of any of these things, regardless of what they look like "on paper."


So, in conclusion, you say that all the Sox players are horrible while ignoring glaring flaws on many of those Twins players. I have found this exchange fascinating.
Again, the Twins proved their quality through their results.

I'll ask again, not to be a jerk, but to hopefully gain some hope for this team from your viewpoint:

Exactly WHAT have the 2010 SOX shown you to convince you that they are capable of doing what the 2006 twins did?

asindc
05-05-2010, 01:58 PM
Yes, I've seen Punto play, and I've looked at his stats. He really isn't that much worse offensively than Teahen. And I maintain that Teahen is the worse defender out of the two.

I think Teahen is more famous than good, thanks to him being in Moneyball. Teahen does get on base. But Teahen isn't exactly a >.900 OPS player. Nor will he be in a team for his glove.


Holy ****, I can't believe I posted that. You're absolutely right about Pierre not striking out. :redface:


I disagree. He's garbage defensively. Of course, we as SOX fans may have forgotten what good OF defense looks like, given the many years of Pods before Pierre.


I simply don't trust Jones to continue this pace. Check back with us later this year.



Great. Let us know when he starts being a reason for the SOX to WIN, rather than a cause for their losing. Offensively, Beckham is RIGHT NOW a below-average 2B, offensively-speaking. In 2006, Castillo was average to above-average.

We don't know for SURE if 2009 really represents Beckham's abilities, or 2010. I remember other White SOX rookies going on to have ****ty careers, so he wouldn't be unique if he did. I certainly hope and think that his 2009 is more representative of his ability, but we're not sure, YET.


And amazingly, that TWINS team won 96 games in a division with two other 90+ winning teams. It's great that we as fans like Buehrle and Peavy and Floyd. But right now, these three aren't pitching better than Silva or Bonser or Baker did in 2006. They eventually MIGHT, or they might not.

Like it or not, Buehrle IS 4-11, with a 4.95 ERA since the perfecto. Like it or not, Peavy has had 1 decent start. Buehrle's/Peavy's/Floyd's real performances thus far have not matched their reputations.


You can look at the individual names on a website, and compare players "on paper." But at the end of the day, you'll have to admit that the 2006 Twins were a FAR superior team than the 2010 SOX. They ACCOMPLISHED more that the 2010 SOX are capable of accomplishing. THE 2006 twins DID IT. They DID win 96 games. They DID win the ALC. They DID produce an MVP and a Cy Young.

I opine that the 2010 SOX are incapable of any of these things, regardless of what they look like "on paper."



Again, the Twins proved their quality through their results.

I'll ask again, not to be a jerk, but to hopefully gain some hope for this team from your viewpoint:

Exactly WHAT haves the 2010 SOX shown you to convince you that they are capable of doing what the 2006 twins did?

If you are going to wait and see with Jones, why not do so with the rest of the team?

BTW, Peavy's start in Cleveland was also good.

khan
05-05-2010, 02:33 PM
If you are going to wait and see with Jones, why not do so with the rest of the team?

I think that's a fair question.

I would tell you that in 2009, Andruw Jones started off the season red-hot, and then ended up wiltering and injured. Prior to 2009, Jones was bad, and then injured for much of 2008. Jones hit for a low average in 2007.

Given the macro-trend of him being underwhelming for much of the preceding 3 seasons, him already being considered surplus to requirements by Atlanta, LA, and Texas, PLUS his poor second half of 2009 give me reason to pause.

Granted, it is entirely possible that Jones may continue to perform as he is currently performing. I simply don't trust him to do so.

KMcMahon817
05-05-2010, 02:38 PM
And that Twins team had TONS more talent than this SOX team: Mauer, Morneau, and Hunter, to start. They also had Cuddyer with a breakout season, and Castillo as an actual leadoff hitter that could get on base. Does this SOX team have ANYONE as good as those players? I kind of doubt it.

On the pitching staff, they had ALL-WORLD Johan Santana, a young up-and-coming Francisco Liriano, some closer named Joe Nathan, and and youngster named Pat Neshek.

This SOX team has MAYBE 1 or 2 [EDIT] field players that could start for that Twins team: Rios and Jones. John Danks would make that team, and Thornton as well.

The overwhelming majority of this SOX team would not be starting for the 2006 Twins. Sorry, this SOX team isn't very good, unfortunately. TO compare the 2010 SOX to that Twins team that won 96 games is silly, at best.


While I don't [YET] advocate a firesale, the seeds of it were planted when Ozzie had too much say in the makeup of the team. This past offseason, many of us here could already foresee that this team was incomplete, and likely to fail. I STILL hope I'm wrong, but this roster has done NOTHING to dissuade my view of this team as being bad.

I watch the Twinkies a good amount and you're quite a bit off the mark here.

Beckham, Alexei, Teahen, Jones, Rios all start on the Twins.

Peavy, Danks, and Buehrle are easily better than any pitcher on the Twins, minus maybe Lirano (right now).

And the Twins bullpen is nothing special. Rauch will fade. The guy's stuff is marginal at best.

JB98
05-05-2010, 02:47 PM
I think some fans wildly overestimate how much other teams would be willing to give the Sox in exchange for a partial season of 34-year-old Paul Konerko, or a partial season of Bobby Jenks.

You are not going to get top prospects in return, even for our productive vets. You are not going to get major-league ready prospects either.

Keep in mind, if veterans are traded, somebody has to replace them. As Dirty Sox pointed out, you've got Hudson and Flowers, maybe the younger Danks. You don't have much in the minor leagues as far as homegrown talent that's ready to step in.

As I said earlier in the thread, you can't "play the kids" when you don't have any kids who can play.

khan
05-05-2010, 02:52 PM
I watch the Twinkies a good amount and you're quite a bit off the mark here.

Beckham, Alexei, Teahen, Jones, Rios all start on the Twins.
Are you talking the 2010 twins, or the 2006 twins? Because an earlier poster tried to equate the 2010 SOX to the 2006 twins.

For 2010:
I don't think Beckham has performed as well as Hudson thus far. And even if he has, Beckham's performance has inhaled forcefully so far this year.

I do agree that Ramirez and Rios would start on the 2010 twins, and have already so stated as much.

I don't think Teahen plays defense well enough to be a Twin. As far as Jones goes, see my previous post about me not trusting him to keep this up.


Peavy, Danks, and Buehrle are easily better than any pitcher on the Twins, minus maybe Lirano (right now).
In reputation, sure. In actual performance, Buehrle and Peavy aren't cutting the mustard right now.

By the end of the season, I'd hope that you are correct.

Rauch will fade. The guy's stuff is marginal at best.
Sure. But Bobby Jenks' brain goes on vacation too easily, and his decline in performance in recent seasons is notable as well. Jenks is FAR FROM unhittable nowadays.

Tragg
05-05-2010, 02:54 PM
Would love to see these following people traded
Konerko
Jones
Jenks
AJ
Teahen
Linebrink
Putz
Castro
Alexei
Garcia
Quentin
Pierre

Hopefully trading off these guys will bring in a lot of new fresh young exciting talent. Because this team is dead.
That's fine, but we better bring some talent in to replace them. Dumping veterans isn't exactly Williams' forte (See Swisher et al); nor is playing young players for 2 months Guillen's forte.
IN our case, the short contracts for the hitters should be a PLUS, as long as Williams is looking for talent and not just a salary dump.

TheOldRoman
05-05-2010, 02:56 PM
Yes, I've seen Punto play, and I've looked at his stats. He really isn't that much worse offensively than Teahen. And I maintain that Teahen is the worse defender out of the two.

I think Teahen is more famous than good, thanks to him being in Moneyball. Teahen does get on base. But Teahen isn't exactly a >.900 OPS player. Nor will he be in a team for his glove.


Holy ****, I can't believe I posted that. You're absolutely right about Pierre not striking out. :redface:


I disagree. He's garbage defensively. Of course, we as SOX fans may have forgotten what good OF defense looks like, given the many years of Pods before Pierre.


I simply don't trust Jones to continue this pace. Check back with us later this year.



Great. Let us know when he starts being a reason for the SOX to WIN, rather than a cause for their losing. Offensively, Beckham is RIGHT NOW a below-average 2B, offensively-speaking. In 2006, Castillo was average to above-average.

We don't know for SURE if 2009 really represents Beckham's abilities, or 2010. I remember other White SOX rookies going on to have ****ty careers, so he wouldn't be unique if he did. I certainly hope and think that his 2009 is more representative of his ability, but we're not sure, YET.


And amazingly, that TWINS team won 96 games in a division with two other 90+ winning teams. It's great that we as fans like Buehrle and Peavy and Floyd. But right now, these three aren't pitching better than Silva or Bonser or Baker did in 2006. They eventually MIGHT, or they might not.

Like it or not, Buehrle IS 4-11, with a 4.95 ERA since the perfecto. Like it or not, Peavy has had 1 decent start. Buehrle's/Peavy's/Floyd's real performances thus far have not matched their reputations.


You can look at the individual names on a website, and compare players "on paper." But at the end of the day, you'll have to admit that the 2006 Twins were a FAR superior team than the 2010 SOX. They ACCOMPLISHED more that the 2010 SOX are capable of accomplishing. THE 2006 twins DID IT. They DID win 96 games. They DID win the ALC. They DID produce an MVP and a Cy Young.

I opine that the 2010 SOX are incapable of any of these things, regardless of what they look like "on paper."



Again, the Twins proved their quality through their results.

I'll ask again, not to be a jerk, but to hopefully gain some hope for this team from your viewpoint:

Exactly WHAT have the 2010 SOX shown you to convince you that they are capable of doing what the 2006 twins did?You said "right now" several times. Most of these guys have track records. You know they are better than this. Nobody is expecting 40 year-olds to play like they were 26. There are a lot of guys in their prime or close who are playing well below their career numbers. If Quentin, AJ, Pierre, Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd and Beckham stay healthy this year, their numbers will improve dramatically. And as I said before, I know they are a better team than right now, so they will play better. This team will improve. I don't know if they are capable of doing what the 2006 Twins did, but that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that 1) They are better than this, and 2) it wouldn't be completely improbable for this team to win the division.

khan
05-05-2010, 03:11 PM
You said "right now" several times. Most of these guys have track records. You know they are better than this. Nobody is expecting 40 year-olds to play like they were 26. There are a lot of guys in their prime or close who are playing well below their career numbers. If Quentin, AJ, Pierre, Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd and Beckham stay healthy this year, their numbers will improve dramatically. And as I said before, I know they are a better team than right now, so they will play better. This team will improve. I don't know if they are capable of doing what the 2006 Twins did, but that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that 1) They are better than this, and 2) it wouldn't be completely improbable for this team to win the division.

1. Good post.

2. Quentin has more of a track record of getting hurt than he does of being healthy AND producing well. He's had more seasons where he missed significant amounts of time than he does of being a superior performer at his position. Until he duplicates 2008, we are forced to believe that this was his "career year." Hell, let's see him hit his weight, stay healthy for a full season, or play RF better than a 35 year old Jermaine Dye. Until these things happen, 2008 may have been it for this guy.

3. Beckham has virtually NO track record. If he does as well as he did in 2009, I wouldn't be surprised. At the same time, if his performance takes a giant ****, I wouldn't be surprised, either. We can hope for the best, but there is scant PROOF of Beckham being GUARANTEED to be a great player.

This view is a by-product of the many seasons of self-scouting ineptitude by this team and this manager.

4. It is entirely possible that a 33 year old catcher could just be done. I hope not, but if AJ is done, he wouldn't be the first catcher to be done @ 33 years old.

5. I agree that they "should" be better than they are right now. Perhaps we disagree as to what degree they should be better.

6. I entirely discount the possibility of the SOX winning the division, because I opine that the twins are too much better at too many positions than our SOX.

That is, UNLESS the twins are SAVAGED by injuries, the SOX get career and/or resurgent years from several players, AND KW brings on significant improvements/reinforcements into the roster. Thus far, I've seen no evidence of any of these things happening.

thomas35forever
05-05-2010, 05:52 PM
This thread is entertaining to say the least, so I'll jump in as well.

As other posters have pointed out, it would be incredibly stupid to sell everyone in early May. Do that, and like others have said, we'll get about as many people to show up for our games as the Indians and Blue Jays, which in turn would affect payroll, which would affect a whole lot of other things.

Selling everyone right now would mean pushing the panic button and honestly, why would you do that this time of year? In case you haven't noticed, we have 135 games left. Plenty of time to turn things around, although there aren't a whole lot of signs that this team will do so.

People like to make comparisons to teams like the '83 White Sox, the '05 Astros or in this thread, the '06 Twins. I'd like to compare a couple of things to last year's team. We're only two games behind our '09 pace (you can take that either way). Also, Floyd is not this bad. After we got swept in Toronto in May last year, his ERA was at 7.71. He recovered and shaved it down to 4.06 while breaking even with his record (11-11).

What's my point? Give this team a little more time. We'll see where we are around Father's Day and then see what we can get.

Oh yeah, and re-sign Konerko for another year or two.

TheVulture
05-05-2010, 07:56 PM
I still think this team has a heck of a pitching staff. Peavy is the man, he just had a few rough starts. No way does he pitch like that all year. I expect Buehrle and Floyd'll even out and Danks is already showing he's a borderline ace. That's a pair of borderline aces and a pair of solid 2-3 guys in my book. There's several good arms in the pen. I'm not writing the Sox off just yet.

I wouldn't mind seeing the sox move a couple players, though.

Rockabilly
05-09-2010, 07:01 PM
Ok for everyone who disagrees with me. Who on the current roster,
do you want back on the team next season?

If you want Konerko, Putz, AJ, Garcia and Jones back. How much are you willing to pay these guys?

If you agree with me about a fire sale. Which players would you get rid of?

Boondock Saint
05-09-2010, 07:06 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2487947#post2487947

You asked this question five days ago. What's changed since then?

pythons007
05-09-2010, 07:17 PM
Not this again.:rolleyes:

Brian26
05-09-2010, 07:20 PM
Merged.

JB98
05-09-2010, 07:26 PM
By having a firesale, you're giving up on this year, plus next year.

Senseless.

Dibbs
05-09-2010, 07:27 PM
Ok for everyone who disagrees with me. Who on the current roster,
do you want back on the team next season?

If you want Konerko, Putz, AJ, Garcia and Jones back. How much are you willing to pay these guys?

If you agree with me about a fire sale. Which players would you get rid of?

If it is of any comfort, you have the support of at least one person here. I would go with a fire sale to clear as much payroll as possible for next year. We would finally be able to take advantage of some of these free agents who have been relative bargains the last couple of years. We may pick up a couple decent prospects along the way too.

russ99
05-09-2010, 08:06 PM
What really are you going to be able to sell?

Maybe Paulie, and that would be a shame to dump him now.

No one's going to take A.J. or our other underperforming players right now. If they do, good luck getting anything decent back.

Do you want to see the Sox sell Danks, Beckham or Floyd? Cause that's who teams will be calling for. Not the 10M+ guys.

As for next year, I'll wait until October before commenting on that. Still a lot of baseball to play.

Lip Man 1
05-09-2010, 08:10 PM
JB:

You are not necessarily giving up on next year. If as some are already saying, that because of attendance issues around MLB, next season's free agents are again going to be looking for work at very reasonable prices, it's possible for the Sox to try to unload salary this summer and regroup next year.

Say if they can shed 25 million in salary this July, they might be able to get enough "talent" in here next season to change course. Assuming they are willing to keep the payroll around 100 million despite a drop in attendance this year (which would mark the 4th consecutive season with a drop from the previous year...)

Kenny would have to be extremely shrewd with how he spent that money, but it could be done.

Lip

Tragg
05-09-2010, 08:54 PM
No firesale.
Just keep your ears open to opportunities. Eventually someone will overpay.
In the meantime, see if we can improve the defense some.

JB98
05-09-2010, 09:00 PM
JB:

You are not necessarily giving up on next year. If as some are already saying, that because of attendance issues around MLB, next season's free agents are again going to be looking for work at very reasonable prices, it's possible for the Sox to try to unload salary this summer and regroup next year.

Say if they can shed 25 million in salary this July, they might be able to get enough "talent" in here next season to change course. Assuming they are willing to keep the payroll around 100 million despite a drop in attendance this year (which would mark the 4th consecutive season with a drop from the previous year...)

Kenny would have to be extremely shrewd with how he spent that money, but it could be done.

Lip

The Cleveland Indians held a firesale last year. Now, look at them. They are off to an even worse start than the Sox. I don't think that's the way to go.

I really doubt the Sox can hold a firesale this year, then build a contender in 2011 by shopping for bargains in free agency.

Firesales are something that chronic losers like the Pirates do. This organization should not have to go that route. I think the posters calling for a firesale are just frustrated with many of the current players (rightfully so). But the Sox can't afford to make bad business decisions out of frustration.

Lip Man 1
05-09-2010, 09:09 PM
JB:

It all depends on who is available next season I assume...some really good players may be available and if you get enough of them.....

Lip

asindc
05-09-2010, 09:21 PM
JB:

It all depends on who is available next season I assume...some really good players may be available and if you get enough of them.....

Lip

But having a firesale now (or before July) with the idea that you will go after several good value FAs in the offseason is a bigger gamble than going after undervalued FAs to fill holes and/or replace underperforming players.

Lip Man 1
05-09-2010, 10:01 PM
Asin:

Can you explain more why you think that?

Lip

asindc
05-09-2010, 10:10 PM
Asin:

Can you explain more why you think that?

Lip

If you sell off several key members of the roster now, you have many more holes to fill in the offseason than if you wait until the market is better for sellers and you have a better assessment of who to get rid of or keep. The gamble is in landing enough FAs at good prices to make the firesale worth it. Since not every player you go after will want to come here for whatever reason, the more roster holes you have, the less chance of it working well enough for it to be a net gain.

Lip Man 1
05-09-2010, 10:30 PM
Asin:

Well you do realize Jones, Konerko and A.J. (and there may be more I don't know) can be free agents after this season anyway.

Kenny may not have a choice in the matter. I agree it's very hard to do anything now but I think eventually the teams performance will force him starting next month.

Lip

Tragg
05-09-2010, 10:34 PM
Asin:

Well you do realize Jones, Konerko and A.J. (and there may be more I don't know) can be free agents after this season anyway.

Kenny may not have a choice in the matter. I agree it's very hard to do anything now but I think eventually the teams performance will force him starting next month.

Lip

Those guys we should sell off if offered a fair price.
I would also trade the bullpen if the offers are there...because that can be pulled back together in the off season AND you get a premium when trading in July. Take legitimate prospects...they don't have to be all in AAA near ML ready.
Don't trade the starting pitchers....that's the mistake that the Tribe et al make.
In the offseason I'd try to get 1 hitter and improve the defense.

Nellie_Fox
05-10-2010, 01:16 AM
Fire sale is not one word.

jabrch
05-10-2010, 01:58 AM
JB:

You are not necessarily giving up on next year. If as some are already saying, that because of attendance issues around MLB, next season's free agents are again going to be looking for work at very reasonable prices, it's possible for the Sox to try to unload salary this summer and regroup next year.

Say if they can shed 25 million in salary this July, they might be able to get enough "talent" in here next season to change course. Assuming they are willing to keep the payroll around 100 million despite a drop in attendance this year (which would mark the 4th consecutive season with a drop from the previous year...)

Kenny would have to be extremely shrewd with how he spent that money, but it could be done.

Lip


Lip, can you think of any teams that held fire sales and came back to win the next year?

asindc
05-10-2010, 08:22 AM
Asin:

Well you do realize Jones, Konerko and A.J. (and there may be more I don't know) can be free agents after this season anyway.

Kenny may not have a choice in the matter. I agree it's very hard to do anything now but I think eventually the teams performance will force him starting next month.

Lip

Yes, and the list includes Jenks as well. My point is that players that bring back value in a trade this early are worth keeping until the market swings more in favor of the seller, which is July. I especially don't like making drastic moves based on the fact that so many players are playing so poorly, it is unreasonable to expect them to play this poorly for the remainder of the season.

Lip Man 1
05-10-2010, 11:30 AM
Jab:

There's never been a time when the economic situation caused many quality free agents to almost go "begging" (not literally but you know what I mean) for contracts.

Under normal conditions there hasn't to the best of my knowledge but in fact, these are not normal times.

Lip

areilly
05-10-2010, 11:42 AM
Lip, can you think of any teams that held fire sales and came back to win the next year?

Fire sale or not, the Sox are probably at least 2-3 years away from seriously contending beyond the "AL Central by default" mode. All things considered, there are worse moves a team can make than dumping a catcher on the downslope, an injury-prone question mark, and a reliever who can't do his job.

JB98
05-10-2010, 12:25 PM
Fire sale or not, the Sox are probably at least 2-3 years away from seriously contending beyond the "AL Central by default" mode. All things considered, there are worse moves a team can make than dumping a catcher on the downslope, an injury-prone question mark, and a reliever who can't do his job.

It is worth noting that the veterans on this club will probably not bring a bounty of talent in return. Pierzynski is one of my favorite players on this team, but I don't know that teams are going to give up a top prospect in order to acquire him for the stretch drive.

I'm not happy about this year. I doubt they'll turn it around. But I'm not in the mindset to throw 2011 down the toilet just because the 2010 team is not good. In the AL Central, you can get back in the hunt quickly because there is no team in the division that consistently puts up 95-win seasons.

Bobby Thigpen
05-10-2010, 01:13 PM
In the AL Central, you can get back in the hunt quickly because there is no team in the division that consistently puts up 95-win seasons.
Not a whole heck of a lot of divisions where anyone does.

jabrch
05-10-2010, 01:42 PM
Jab:

There's never been a time when the economic situation caused many quality free agents to almost go "begging" (not literally but you know what I mean) for contracts.

Under normal conditions there hasn't to the best of my knowledge but in fact, these are not normal times.

Lip


I'm trying to follow - let me ask a few Qs... So first, who are these veterans who would have an impact who you would want to sign who aren't getting offers? I mean - Dye got offered 4mm by the Cubs and turned it down. But even JD is a ? in terms of real value today. If we had this fire sale, and moved pitching and our best bats, who would we replace them with?

Here's a list of 2011 FAs.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2001/05/potential-free-agents-for-2011.html

I know a few guys didn't get jobs - some due to their own overestimation of value - but if you have a fire sale, today, I don't see how you could contend in 2011 even in this unprecedented economy unless you find teams willing to give you lots of MLB ready prospects for your vets, and your hit rate is high.

voodoochile
05-10-2010, 02:21 PM
I'm trying to follow - let me ask a few Qs... So first, who are these veterans who would have an impact who you would want to sign who aren't getting offers? I mean - Dye got offered 4mm by the Cubs and turned it down. But even JD is a ? in terms of real value today. If we had this fire sale, and moved pitching and our best bats, who would we replace them with?

Here's a list of 2011 FAs.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2001/05/potential-free-agents-for-2011.html

I know a few guys didn't get jobs - some due to their own overestimation of value - but if you have a fire sale, today, I don't see how you could contend in 2011 even in this unprecedented economy unless you find teams willing to give you lots of MLB ready prospects for your vets, and your hit rate is high.

It's true. The Sox would be trusting they can rebuild the team better next year and that the guys they sign will perform. The pitching staff is built to win now. There's a 3 year window including this year that the team will have 4 guaranteed good starters (provided Buehrle and Floyd can actually pitch like they are capable of pitching). If the Sox tear the offense and bullpen down to scratch or dump all the high priced veterans save Peavy and Rios, there is no guarantee they can build a successful team around them and money might get tighter if the fans don't trust the direction and renew their season tickets at a high enough rate.

Lip Man 1
05-10-2010, 03:03 PM
Jab:

Just one example off the top of my head... Orlando Hudson went weeks without a job until finally getting an offer from the Twins. There were other players in the same boat the past two off seasons.

Instead of Hudson getting say nine million a year he got what four? That's what I'm trying to say, the Sox could take a shot on unloading as much as they can now then go into the off season well heeled (assuming they keep the payroll at 100 million despite attendance) and get some or perhaps a bunch of guys who can in fact, play and possibly turn things around quickly. at less than normal market value.

I'm not saying they will do it, I'm not saying they could do it...I'm simply suggesting it could be a possibility under these unusual economic times.

Lip

jabrch
05-10-2010, 03:15 PM
Jab:

Just one example off the top of my head... Orlando Hudson went weeks without a job until finally getting an offer from the Twins. There were other players in the same boat the past two off seasons.

Instead of Hudson getting say nine million a year he got what four? That's what I'm trying to say, the Sox could take a shot on unloading as much as they can now then go into the off season well heeled (assuming they keep the payroll at 100 million despite attendance) and get some or perhaps a bunch of guys who can in fact, play and possibly turn things around quickly. at less than normal market value.

I'm not saying they will do it, I'm not saying they could do it...I'm simply suggesting it could be a possibility under these unusual economic times.

Lip

As far as Hudson goes, the year before all he got was a 1 year, 3.4mm deal. This year, he got a 1 year 5mm deal. I think Hudson is grossly overrated by fans relative to by GMs (not that he wouldn't have helped us) but I hardly think he is affirmative proof that you can have a fire sale and still win next year.

Unless someone proves otherwise to me, having a fire sale like is being proposed in this thread would be a surefire way to guarantee we'd suck for a while. As Voo said, our pitching is, ideally, built to win now. Dumping players would be counterproductive to that end.

I think part of the problem is that I don't believe this team sucks as bad as it has played one month into 2010. I'm still convinced this is an 85-90 win team that hasn't played like it. Not that is WILL win 85-90, just that it should have. At this point, given the record 30 games into the year, just getting to 85 would be a heck of an accomplishment... Who knows...

I can't wait until they get home from this road trip - I'm planning on going to a few games in the next homestand.

voodoochile
05-10-2010, 03:28 PM
I also think the issue with dumping all the vets is you don't know what you are getting with some of the younger players.

Is Beckham going to turn into a stud or a bust?

How much can the team actually rely on TCQ and what position is he going to play long term?

Is Teahen worth a full time slot?

Until those questions get answered, the team doesn't know what it needs, so dumping salary might lead to dumping the wrong people and ending up with position players not worth building around. The Sox shouldn't look at dumping a bunch of people until late June at the earliest anyway, because any sooner will simply damage summer ticket sales and that might lead to less money to spend next year anyway.

Noneck
05-10-2010, 03:38 PM
FYI: After bonus and performance incentives, Orlando Hudson made about 8m in 2009, not 3.4m which was posted in a previous post.

areilly
05-10-2010, 05:44 PM
Unless someone proves otherwise to me, having a fire sale like is being proposed in this thread would be a surefire way to guarantee we'd suck for a while. As Voo said, our pitching is, ideally, built to win now. Dumping players would be counterproductive to that end.

Florida cleaned house in 1998 and won a World Series five years later. The Pirates dump everyone every year and remain terrible. Most teams tend to fall somewhere in the middle and, I'm not gonna lie, the middle looks pretty good right about now.

It's Dankerific
05-10-2010, 06:30 PM
I dont understand how moving some players would hurt ticket sales. They're already losing more then their winning. Does someone really care if Paul Konerko is playing 1st base when they're making their decision when the probably outcome is still a loss?

I think winning and losing is the big driver of ticket sales, except when a particular player is having a historic season. We don't have any of those, so why worry?

voodoochile
05-10-2010, 06:51 PM
I dont understand how moving some players would hurt ticket sales. They're already losing more then their winning. Does someone really care if Paul Konerko is playing 1st base when they're making their decision when the probably outcome is still a loss?

I think winning and losing is the big driver of ticket sales, except when a particular player is having a historic season. We don't have any of those, so why worry?

Casual fans aren't going to give up on the season in May. If the Sox can at all keep things respectable between now and Mid-June it will help summer ticket sales. If they give up now, people will buy less tickets. The fact you are sure it doesn't matter is not the same thing as the Sox admitting as much and tanking the season in early May...

It's Dankerific
05-10-2010, 07:29 PM
Casual fans aren't going to give up on the season in May. If the Sox can at all keep things respectable between now and Mid-June it will help summer ticket sales. If they give up now, people will buy less tickets. The fact you are sure it doesn't matter is not the same thing as the Sox admitting as much and tanking the season in early May...

Keeping it respectable, sounds to me, like winning. The guys out there aren't doing that.

I guess I see a difference between a pure salary dump, which would surely be the death knell to the summer attendence. Or a trade for young prospects that a) have an upside and b) could start playing this season. They're about as likely to win a game as the current group.

If its the usual "theres no market for our guys" yet we have to trade our best prospects for people like Pena, then I'd stand pat too.

voodoochile
05-10-2010, 07:41 PM
Keeping it respectable, sounds to me, like winning. The guys out there aren't doing that.

I guess I see a difference between a pure salary dump, which would surely be the death knell to the summer attendence. Or a trade for young prospects that a) have an upside and b) could start playing this season. They're about as likely to win a game as the current group.

If its the usual "theres no market for our guys" yet we have to trade our best prospects for people like Pena, then I'd stand pat too.

Yeah, the economy is working against us too. By all accounts, baseball is having a down year attendancewise, so teams may not be willing to take on big salary to trade for "MLB ready talent" as almost all teams want to hold on to low priced players who may contribute immediately or soon. There might be more demand closer to the all star break because the pennant race will heat up and teams might be willing to take on 3 months of salary and give something up for it. Not saying it's impossible, but if KW starts trading vets for prospects right now he better be damned sure those prospects can help next year in a big way.

That's the part that gets me. What do people expect to get for Jenks right now? Do they really think they are going to get a quality piece or just a salary dump? If it's just a salary dump, why do they care?

Might get something for Jones and PK, but man you trade those guys now, you are officially giving up on the season in May and you better have a serious plan to replace that production next year or having Peavy, Danks, Buehrle and Floyd just won't matter...

soxinem1
05-10-2010, 07:50 PM
How much are you willing to pay Konerko,Jones and AJ to bring them all back? Also Jenks will be around 9M next season.

I would love to see Santos get the shot at the closer spot for next season

I did forget about Pena. I would bring him back as well

I think Pena will be the DJ Carrasco of 2010, regardless of how the season pans out.

JB98
05-10-2010, 09:52 PM
Not a whole heck of a lot of divisions where anyone does.

You mean besides the AL East and the AL West?

The AL Central is the only division in the league where you can occasionally get to the playoffs with 87-89 wins.

In the East, it's a given that either New York or Boston is going to win 95-plus. In the West, the Angels have won 94 or more four years out of six. In a fifth year, they won 92 to take the division.

There are no power teams in the AL Central. This division is the only one in the league where you can rebuild in one year.

KMcMahon817
05-10-2010, 10:11 PM
You mean besides the AL East and the AL West?

The AL Central is the only division in the league where you can occasionally get to the playoffs with 87-89 wins.

In the East, it's a given that either New York or Boston is going to win 95-plus. In the West, the Angels have won 94 or more four years out of six. In a fifth year, they won 92 to take the division.

There are no power teams in the AL Central. This division is the only one in the league where you can rebuild in one year.

I can't really think of an example of a team in the central selling off the majority of it's key players in one season and qualifying for the playoffs in the next, can you?

Rebuilding in one year in ANY division is nearly impossible.

Rockabilly
05-10-2010, 10:14 PM
I can't really think of an example of a team in the central selling off the majority of it's key players in one season and qualifying for the playoffs in the next, can you?

Rebuilding in one year in ANY division is nearly impossible.

I could be wrong but wasn't the Twins a game away from making the playoffs. After they traded Santana. Let Hunter and a few others sign somewhere else.

JB98
05-10-2010, 10:19 PM
I can't really think of an example of a team in the central selling off the majority of it's key players in one season and qualifying for the playoffs in the next, can you?

Rebuilding in one year in ANY division is nearly impossible.

No, and that's why I'm arguing in this thread that this fire sale talk is crap. If the Sox do that, they are admitting that 2011 is over already.

On the contrary, it is possible to rebuild in one year in the AL Central. Two recent examples:

2006 Indians: 78-84
2007 Indians: 96-66, division champs

2007 Sox: 72-90
2008 Sox: 89-74, division champs

You CAN bounce back quickly in the AL Central, because there is no power team that's going to post 90-something wins every year.

But you can't do it by selling off proven players for crap. That's what the Indians did last year, and that's why they suck this season.

KMcMahon817
05-10-2010, 10:29 PM
No, and that's why I'm arguing in this thread that this fire sale talk is crap. If the Sox do that, they are admitting that 2011 is over already.

On the contrary, it is possible to rebuild in one year in the AL Central. Two recent examples:

2006 Indians: 78-84
2007 Indians: 96-66, division champs

2007 Sox: 72-90
2008 Sox: 89-74, division champs

You CAN bounce back quickly in the AL Central, because there is no power team that's going to post 90-something wins every year.

But you can't do it by selling off proven players for crap. That's what the Indians did last year, and that's why they suck this season.

That makes sense. I didn't read the whole thread because KW will not be selling off the troops so it would be a waste of time.

Craig Grebeck
05-10-2010, 10:39 PM
For me, if the Sox are out of it come July, you have to deal AJ and see what you've got at the major league level with Tyler. His bat might take a while, but at least they can see if his 'D' is workable, give him a year with the pitchers, etc.

KMcMahon817
05-10-2010, 11:28 PM
For me, if the Sox are out of it come July, you have to deal AJ and see what you've got at the major league level with Tyler. His bat might take a while, but at least they can see if his 'D' is workable, give him a year with the pitchers, etc.

If the SOX are for sure done, as in continue to play under .500 ball, then absolutely. Probably not going to get a great haul for 2.5 months of AJ though.

Craig Grebeck
05-10-2010, 11:37 PM
If the SOX are for sure done, as in continue to play under .500 ball, then absolutely. Probably not going to get a great haul for 2.5 months of AJ though.
That may be. Perhaps they'd be better settling for free agent compensation, but I doubt too many teams will be willing to cough up draft picks for an aging catcher, especially one hitting like he is right now.

Noneck
05-10-2010, 11:51 PM
For me, if the Sox are out of it come July, you have to deal AJ and see what you've got at the major league level with Tyler.

That may not be so easy to do. AJ will obtain his 5/10 clause I believe 6/1.

Lip Man 1
05-11-2010, 12:04 AM
Mark Gonzales Monday in one of his stories at Tribune.com mentioned the word "fire sale" for the first time in connection with this team.

Lip

Rockabilly
05-11-2010, 12:08 AM
Mark Gonzales Monday in one of his stories at Tribune.com mentioned the word "fire sale" for the first time in connection with this team.

Lip

I've seen a few sports writers talked about a fire sale, since I started this thread.

WhiteSox5187
05-11-2010, 02:24 AM
That may be. Perhaps they'd be better settling for free agent compensation, but I doubt too many teams will be willing to cough up draft picks for an aging catcher, especially one hitting like he is right now.

Earlier in the year Jayson Stark said that AJ was probably the second most valuable catcher on the market after Mauer, since Mauer has now re-signed one would assume that would make AJ the most wanted catcher. Teams always want catchers and a catcher that can hit is a very valuable commodity. Granted he's 33, but catchers can seemingly play forever and is one year removed from a .300 season. So I think that he is probably going to be more valuable walking away than trading for some D level prospect.

If you can't trade him and we are way out of it, I agree you have to see what you have in Flowers come June or July. But, if, by the grace of God, we can some how start winning and AJ's bat comes around (he is hitting better in May) then you stick with AJ.

If we're this bad by Memorial Day or June 1st or whatever, I think you start looking to unload guys.

voodoochile
05-11-2010, 02:27 AM
Earlier in the year Jayson Stark said that AJ was probably the second most valuable catcher on the market after Mauer, since Mauer has now re-signed one would assume that would make AJ the most wanted catcher. Teams always want catchers and a catcher that can hit is a very valuable commodity. Granted he's 33, but catchers can seemingly play forever and is one year removed from a .300 season. So I think that he is probably going to be more valuable walking away than trading for some D level prospect.

If you can't trade him and we are way out of it, I agree you have to see what you have in Flowers come June or July. But, if, by the grace of God, we can some how start winning and AJ's bat comes around (he is hitting better in May) then you stick with AJ.

If we're this bad by Memorial Day or June 1st or whatever, I think you start looking to unload guys.

Tough to switch catchers in the middle of a pennant race because they don't know the staff. That would be the only drawback I could think of, but with managers calling signs, shouldn't be as big of an issue. Still, I don't know if AJ is a big trading chip or not. Given his reputation a team might be worried he'd disrupt team chemistry.

TommyJohn
05-11-2010, 08:26 AM
2007 Sox: 72-90
2008 Sox: 89-74, division champs

You CAN bounce back quickly in the AL Central, because there is no power team that's going to post 90-something wins every year.

Why are you using the pathetic 2008 White Sox as an example? Don't you know that they are part of this continuing four year cycle of suckage? That Ozzie was manager and Greg Walker was around, too? ONLY their record since the second half of 2006 counts for anything when assessing the team. Remember that, Mr. "Expert."

doublem23
05-11-2010, 08:55 AM
Why are you using the pathetic 2008 White Sox as an example? Don't you know that they are part of this continuing four year cycle of suckage? That Ozzie was manager and Greg Walker was around, too? ONLY their record since the second half of 2006 counts for anything when assessing the team. Remember that, Mr. "Expert."

:rolleyes:

That was not a great team that benefited by being the best in a bad, bad division.

2008 Sox vs. ALC = 44-29
2008 Sox vs. All others = 45-45

Let's also not forget they got 1318 PA (over 1/5 of all PA for that team) from Cabrera and Swisher, a pair of guys Ozzie and KW ran out of town after the season.

voodoochile
05-11-2010, 12:22 PM
:rolleyes:

That was not a great team that benefited by being the best in a bad, bad division.

2008 Sox vs. ALC = 44-29
2008 Sox vs. All others = 45-45

Let's also not forget they got 1318 PA (over 1/5 of all PA for that team) from Cabrera and Swisher, a pair of guys Ozzie and KW ran out of town after the season.

Do you honestly think Swisher helps your argument? You keep bringing him up like it's some magical potion that proves your point. Swisher got run out of town because he sucked and the Sox didn't want to keep paying him.

Oh and the 2005 Sox were 52-22 against the ALC, 35-35 against the rest of the AL and 12-6 in Interleague. So your argument is pretty crappy in general.

Craig Grebeck
05-11-2010, 12:24 PM
Do you honestly think Swisher helps your argument? You keep bringing him up like it's some magical potion that proves your point. Swisher got run out of town because he sucked and the Sox didn't want to keep paying him.

Oh and the 2005 Sox were 52-22 against the ALC, 35-35 against the rest of the AL and 12-6 in Interleague. So your argument is pretty crappy in general.
Which, magically, he doesn't suck anymore. Pays to be patient. Perhaps we'd be better with him. I'd wager we would.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 01:00 PM
Do you honestly think Swisher helps your argument? You keep bringing him up like it's some magical potion that proves your point. Swisher got run out of town because he sucked and the Sox didn't want to keep paying him.

Do you just not pay attention to other teams? Swisher since leaving the Sox: 180 G, .259/.375/.512. GOOD THING HE'S NOT AROUND.

Oh and the 2005 Sox were 52-22 against the ALC, 35-35 against the rest of the AL and 12-6 in Interleague. So your argument is pretty crappy in general.

Yeah, a 10-win swing isn't a big deal at all. No mention that the 2005 ALC produced 2 90-win teams, while the 2008 ALC couldn't produce 1.

:kneeslap:

2005 Sox > 2008 Sox. I can't believe I actually have to argue this point.

voodoochile
05-11-2010, 01:11 PM
Do you just not pay attention to other teams? Swisher since leaving the Sox: 180 G, .259/.375/.512. GOOD THING HE'S NOT AROUND.



Yeah, a 10-win swing isn't a big deal at all. No mention that the 2005 ALC produced 2 90-win teams, while the 2008 ALC couldn't produce 1.

:kneeslap:

2005 Sox > 2008 Sox. I can't believe I actually have to argue this point.


The Swisher argument is hindsight. At the end of 2008 a lot of fans were quite happy to see him gone. The fact he's performed well in NY is not pertinent to the decision to dump him after 2008.

I agree that 2005 was a better team, but my point is that using league records to figure that out isn't worth much. The 2005 ALC also had a 56 win KC team while the worst team in 2008 won 74 games. The ALC average win total was 81 in 2008 and 80 in 2005.

voodoochile
05-11-2010, 01:12 PM
Which, magically, he doesn't suck anymore. Pays to be patient. Perhaps we'd be better with him. I'd wager we would.

I would have liked to see Swisher get another year, but I can understand why they traded him. More so given the state of the economy and the fact the Sox have a much tighter payroll than the NYY.

Hitmen77
05-11-2010, 02:22 PM
:rolleyes:

That was not a great team that benefited by being the best in a bad, bad division.

2008 Sox vs. ALC = 44-29
2008 Sox vs. All others = 45-45

Let's also not forget they got 1318 PA (over 1/5 of all PA for that team) from Cabrera and Swisher, a pair of guys Ozzie and KW ran out of town after the season.

Even with the 2008 team's success in the AL Central, they looked horribly outclassed once they hit the playoffs. Tampa Bay (and any other AL playoff opponent they would have faced) looked so much better than us that it wasn't even funny.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we took the AL Central, but quite frankly I was glad that the Sox even managed to get one win in the ALDS.

Plus, one season good season in the midst of a 4 season lousy stretch isn't exactly what I'm expecting from this franchise. The biggest problem for the Sox is failure to develop much of anything from the minors. Since we don't have Yankees or Red Sox level revenue, we can only go so far to fill our holes with higher priced veterans. Successful teams like Tampa, Minnesota, and even Boston have home grown talent as a key part of their success. Our farm system has produced so little compared to those teams. That's the bottom line. KW's smoke and mirrors can only take us so far.

Which, magically, he doesn't suck anymore. Pays to be patient. Perhaps we'd be better with him. I'd wager we would.

The thing is, if we kept Swisher we very most likely wouldn't have picked up Rios on waivers. I'll take Rios over Swisher.

TheOldRoman
05-11-2010, 03:22 PM
Even with the 2008 team's success in the AL Central, they looked horribly outclassed once they hit the playoffs. Tampa Bay (and any other AL playoff opponent they would have faced) looked so much better than us that it wasn't even funny.
You are remembering wrong. The Sox would have taken game 1 if Vazquez didn't crap himself. Of course, there was the incident of Cabrera acting like a bitch and screaming at Balfour on a ball in the dirt with the bases loaded, which seemed to ignite the Rays. The Sox won game 3 and were in all of the games sans game 4 in the late innings. That team underperformed all year, but it was impressive to make the playoffs with Quentin and Contreras out the last month of the season. Quentin WAS the MVP that year, so put him in the middle of the lineup and that Rays series looks a lot different. People also forget that, although Contreras wasn't great in 08, if he didn't get injured they would have done better down the stretch, and the pitching wouldn't have let down going on three days rest the last two weeks of the season. If the Sox clinched the division earlier, Buehrle would go in game 1 and Floyd in game 2, and the series looks a whole lot different. I am not saying the 08 team would have won the World Series, but I fully believe they would have beaten the Rays had Quentin and Contreras stayed healthy.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 03:49 PM
The thing is, if we kept Swisher we very most likely wouldn't have picked up Rios on waivers. I'll take Rios over Swisher.

I don't think that's necessarily true, if the Sox would have kept Swisher they'd probably have to have traded Dye, so we'd still have been in need for a CF.

WhiteSox5187
05-11-2010, 04:03 PM
Which, magically, he doesn't suck anymore. Pays to be patient. Perhaps we'd be better with him. I'd wager we would.

I think he punched his ticket out of town after blowing off Griffey when he offered to give him some advice about a hole in his swing. Either way I think Swisher is good now because he is more or less an after thought in the Yankees lineup (if that makes any sense). The Yankees lineup is built around Texiera, A-Rod, Jeter, and a lot of really great hitters. Swisher isn't a key component in that lineup which means he gets more pitches to see, if he were still with us he'd be a big part of the middle of our order and I think pitchers would pitch to him differently and I'm not so sure he'd be putting up the numbers he is putting up, but to speculate what he'd be doing here is difficult to do.

Craig Grebeck
05-11-2010, 04:04 PM
I think he punched his ticket out of town after blowing off Griffey when he offered to give him some advice about a hole in his swing. Either way I think Swisher is good now because he is more or less an after thought in the Yankees lineup (if that makes any sense). The Yankees lineup is built around Texiera, A-Rod, Jeter, and a lot of really great hitters. Swisher isn't a key component in that lineup which means he gets more pitches to see, if he were still with us he'd be a big part of the middle of our order and I think pitchers would pitch to him differently and I'm not so sure he'd be putting up the numbers he is putting up, but to speculate what he'd be doing here is difficult to do.
That is just a throwaway argument with no evidence whatsoever.

doublem23
05-11-2010, 04:10 PM
I think he punched his ticket out of town after blowing off Griffey when he offered to give him some advice about a hole in his swing. Either way I think Swisher is good now because he is more or less an after thought in the Yankees lineup (if that makes any sense). The Yankees lineup is built around Texiera, A-Rod, Jeter, and a lot of really great hitters. Swisher isn't a key component in that lineup which means he gets more pitches to see, if he were still with us he'd be a big part of the middle of our order and I think pitchers would pitch to him differently and I'm not so sure he'd be putting up the numbers he is putting up, but to speculate what he'd be doing here is difficult to do.

He was also pretty good in Oakland and was a major cog in their lineup.

Hitmen77
05-11-2010, 04:13 PM
You are remembering wrong. The Sox would have taken game 1 if Vazquez didn't crap himself. Of course, there was the incident of Cabrera acting like a bitch and screaming at Balfour on a ball in the dirt with the bases loaded, which seemed to ignite the Rays. The Sox won game 3 and were in all of the games sans game 4 in the late innings. That team underperformed all year, but it was impressive to make the playoffs with Quentin and Contreras out the last month of the season. Quentin WAS the MVP that year, so put him in the middle of the lineup and that Rays series looks a lot different. People also forget that, although Contreras wasn't great in 08, if he didn't get injured they would have done better down the stretch, and the pitching wouldn't have let down going on three days rest the last two weeks of the season. If the Sox clinched the division earlier, Buehrle would go in game 1 and Floyd in game 2, and the series looks a whole lot different. I am not saying the 08 team would have won the World Series, but I fully believe they would have beaten the Rays had Quentin and Contreras stayed healthy.

I guess we'll have to disagree. I'm glad we made the playoffs, but we were really outclassed as far as postseason competition was concerned. Quentin would have helped, but the Rays, Red Sox, etc were still just better than us.

You might complain about Contreras and Vazquez, but they were for better or worse in our rotation. What we got from them was not unexpected.

As far as using the Sox not being able to line up their rotation as an excuse, that was their own fault. They lead the Twins by 6 1/2 games earlier that season and blew that cushion.

That team underperformed all year,

It's pretty sad that, in our one good season in the last 4, we still underperformed.

cards press box
05-11-2010, 06:13 PM
Which, magically, he doesn't suck anymore. Pays to be patient. Perhaps we'd be better with him. I'd wager we would.

The Sox could use a left handed stick, that's for sure. If the Sox still had Swisher, he would probably take at bats from Pierre. Then we have the same nagging problem that the Sox had in 2008: who would lead off?

Craig Grebeck
05-11-2010, 06:14 PM
The Sox could use a left handed stick, that's for sure. If the Sox still had Swisher, he would probably take at bats from Pierre. Then we have the same nagging problem that the Sox had in 2008: who would lead off?
If you think this team would somehow lose something in replacing Pierre with Swisher -- in some crazy hypothetical OH MY GOD WHAT A ****ING DREAM SCENARIO world -- then I'm speechless.

Asking: who would lead off? is about the 34923490238th question a team like the Sox should ask. How's that "natural lead off" **** working this season?

cards press box
05-11-2010, 06:23 PM
If you think this team would somehow lose something in replacing Pierre with Swisher -- in some crazy hypothetical OH MY GOD WHAT A ****ING DREAM SCENARIO world -- then I'm speechless.

Asking: who would lead off? is about the 34923490238th question a team like the Sox should ask. How's that "natural lead off" **** working this season?

Geez, take it easy, I agree with you. Swisher would definitely be an upgrade over Pierre. I'm just observing that adding Swisher and subtracting Pierre would leave the Sox with the same problem they had in 2008: finding a leadoff man. Given this lineup, I'd probably lead off Gordon Beckham or Alex Rios. Neither would be an ideal solution but both would probably be o.k. and the Sox could certainly use Swisher's run production.

Craig Grebeck
05-11-2010, 06:24 PM
Geez, take it easy, I agree with you. Swisher would definitely be an upgrade over Pierre. I'm just observing that adding Swisher and subtracting Pierre would leave the Sox with the same problem they had in 2008: finding a leadoff man. Given this lineup, I'd probably lead off Gordon Beckham or Alex Rios. Neither would be an ideal solution but both would probably be o.k. and the Sox could certainly use Swisher's run production.
Would it be better than Pierre?

cards press box
05-11-2010, 06:28 PM
Would it be better than Pierre?

Yeah, a lineup with Swisher replacing Pierre and either Beckham or Rios leading off would be an improvement over the Sox current offense. I agree that the Sox probably gave up on Swisher too soon.

Of course, Swisher might have been causing problems in the Sox clubhouse and on being traded to NY (his third team in three years), Swisher might have matured somewhat and stopped causing problems. We're not in the clubhouse and we don't know.

WhiteSox5187
05-11-2010, 07:44 PM
That is just a throwaway argument with no evidence whatsoever.

It's one of those things that is measured through knowledge of the game and not by stats so it is lost on stat heads. If you honestly think that a pitcher isn't going to pitch Swisher differently when he has the likes of Texiera and A-Rod surrounding him in the lineup rather than when he has the likes Thome and Dye, I don't know what to tell you.

Also for May, Pierre has a .366 OBP with 9 SBs, so I'd say he's doing a fairly good job out of the leadoff spot. But since you prefer walks to hits and fear SBs, I guess he wouldn't be the guy you turn to.

Craig Grebeck
05-11-2010, 08:20 PM
It's one of those things that is measured through knowledge of the game and not by stats so it is lost on stat heads. If you honestly think that a pitcher isn't going to pitch Swisher differently when he has the likes of Texiera and A-Rod surrounding him in the lineup rather than when he has the likes Thome and Dye, I don't know what to tell you.

Also for May, Pierre has a .366 OBP with 9 SBs, so I'd say he's doing a fairly good job out of the leadoff spot. But since you prefer walks to hits and fear SBs, I guess he wouldn't be the guy you turn to.
Not true, but who cares?

And since you prefer strawmen and cliches to actual statements, I'll leave this sad, sorry, elementary argument behind.

WhiteSox5187
05-11-2010, 09:58 PM
Not true, but who cares?

And since you prefer strawmen and cliches to actual statements, I'll leave this sad, sorry, elementary argument behind.

What the **** does that even mean? When you are confronted with stats that contradict your stance you don't respond anywhere near as clever as you think you do.

Craig Grebeck
05-11-2010, 10:10 PM
What the **** does that even mean? When you are confronted with stats that contradict your stance you don't respond anywhere near as clever as you think you do.
I'm sorry, but less than half a month's worth of data does not contradict my stance that Pierre is bad at baseball. He'll hit his .275/.335/.335 and people will be happy. Great. I'm glad for them.

It is also wholly irrelevant to the original question, which is how the hell do you back up what you're saying?

voodoochile
05-11-2010, 10:30 PM
I'm sorry, but less than half a month's worth of data does not contradict my stance that Pierre is bad at baseball. He'll hit his .275/.335/.335 and people will be happy. Great. I'm glad for them.

It is also wholly irrelevant to the original question, which is how the hell do you back up what you're saying?

With 50 SB and 85+ runs scored. Sometimes the slash line doesn't tell the whole story.

Craig Grebeck
05-11-2010, 10:31 PM
With 50 SB and 85+ runs scored. Sometimes the slash line doesn't tell the whole story.
I have no regard for runs scored as an individual stat. Steals are nice, but they don't make up for everything.

voodoochile
05-11-2010, 10:44 PM
I have no regard for runs scored as an individual stat. Steals are nice, but they don't make up for everything.


I know and that's why I don't think your statistical analysis is complete. You disregard key elements of those runs like how many are a result of the stolen bases or Pierre's exceptional speed and solid base running skills in general. Those things don't show up in a slash line but are definitely part of what makes Pierre more valuable than his slash line suggests, some might argue much more valuable.

What happens if he climbs to .300/.350/.700 with 60 SB and 100+ runs scored. Does that change your evaluation or are you still denying that the runs mean anything from an individual perspective?

Craig Grebeck
05-12-2010, 12:16 AM
I know and that's why I don't think your statistical analysis is complete. You disregard key elements of those runs like how many are a result of the stolen bases or Pierre's exceptional speed and solid base running skills in general. Those things don't show up in a slash line but are definitely part of what makes Pierre more valuable than his slash line suggests, some might argue much more valuable.

What happens if he climbs to .300/.350/.700 with 60 SB and 100+ runs scored. Does that change your evaluation or are you still denying that the runs mean anything from an individual perspective?
I think his on-base percentage is more indicative of how well he reaches base, which is something I think runs scored attempts to get at. When one assesses his speed alongside his on-base percentage, and weights it accordingly, I think that provides for a more sound analysis while still excluding runs scored from the equation.

Nellie_Fox
05-12-2010, 12:36 AM
...Granted he's 33, but catchers can seemingly play forever...What? Catcher is the most physically debilitating position in the game.

I think his on-base percentage is more indicative of how well he reaches base, which is something I think runs scored attempts to get at. When one assesses his speed alongside his on-base percentage, and weights it accordingly, I think that provides for a more sound analysis while still excluding runs scored from the equation.I seriously have no idea what you just said.

Craig Grebeck
05-12-2010, 12:52 AM
I seriously have no idea what you just said.
Welp, why ask for a clarification when being an ******* is just that easy?

voodoochile
05-12-2010, 01:02 AM
I think his on-base percentage is more indicative of how well he reaches base, which is something I think runs scored attempts to get at. When one assesses his speed alongside his on-base percentage, and weights it accordingly, I think that provides for a more sound analysis while still excluding runs scored from the equation.

See I think runs scored is an indication of those factors you mentioned - at least in part. Thus it becomes a good measurement of what those factors mean to the team.

voodoochile
05-12-2010, 01:04 AM
Welp, why ask for a clarification when being an ******* is just that easy?

You do realize you just broke like 3 board rules with one snide reply, right?

doublem23
05-12-2010, 06:08 AM
The Sox could use a left handed stick, that's for sure. If the Sox still had Swisher, he would probably take at bats from Pierre. Then we have the same nagging problem that the Sox had in 2008: who would lead off?

If the Sox had Swisher, we probably never would have even acquired Pierre, so that's like, doubly positive.

Marqhead
05-12-2010, 08:32 AM
If the Sox had Swisher, we probably never would have even acquired Pierre, so that's like, doubly positive.

It was mentioned earlier that if the Sox had Swisher, they probably wouldn't have acquired Rios. Do you think that's a good possibility? Whom would you rather have at this point? It's a decent argument because of the money Rios is making.

I would have liked Swisher to stay with the Sox in a non-lead off, non-CF capacity. Unfortunately he didn't get that chance.

cards press box
05-12-2010, 08:47 AM
I have no regard for runs scored as an individual stat. Steals are nice, but they don't make up for everything.

Steve Stone has said that the two most important offensive stats for him are runs scored and RBI. If I have this right, under Stone's theory, if you add runs and RBI and reach 200, then the player is helping the team win.

Marqhead
05-12-2010, 08:53 AM
Steve Stone has said that the two most important offensive stats for him are runs scored and RBI. If I have this right, under Stone's theory, if you add runs and RBI and reach 200, then the player is helping the team win.

Sounds like the +1/-1 system for off season evaluation. I forget which writer coined the brilliant analysis.

Bobby Thigpen
05-12-2010, 09:19 AM
If anything, this thread proves that no matter how big of a weiner, how worthless they were with the team or how much they basically forced themselves out of town, there will be some people on this board who pine for their return.

He's gone. He was terrible while here. He was a d-bag while here. He's still a d-bag on an awesome team. Great.

Edit- things I have learned about stats lately in Nick Swisher threads-
1. Hitting the ball and getting on base as a result of that is not important.
2. Scoring runs is not important.
3. Driving in runners on base is not important.

voodoochile
05-12-2010, 01:04 PM
Steve Stone has said that the two most important offensive stats for him are runs scored and RBI. If I have this right, under Stone's theory, if you add runs and RBI and reach 200, then the player is helping the team win.

It's called runs created. Runs + RBI - HR. Every eligible player in the top 50 for career RC is in the HOF. Oh and Frank is #19 with a couple of known steroid cheats above him including Barroid...

doublem23
05-12-2010, 01:34 PM
Edit- things I have learned about stats lately in Nick Swisher threads-
1. Hitting the ball and getting on base as a result of that is not important.
2. Scoring runs is not important.
3. Driving in runners on base is not important.

:rolleyes:

A) Getting on base is the most important thing in baseball, it's the basis for being able to do anything offensively.

As for R and RBI they're great stats, but usually aren't great for individual analysis since you generally need guys on base in front of you or guys hitting behind you to make them worthwhile. Essentially, if you're saying Player A is better than Player B and all you've got is Player A scored more runs or drove in more runs, that is a terrible argument.

As for Swisher, hey, I know he was a d-bag at the end of his tenure here, but it's still about winning games on the field. If you're much happier watching Nice Guy Jermaine Dye go into a Death Spiral at the end of last year or watching Nice Guy Juan Pierre helplessly ground out instead of watching D-bag Nick Swisher slug .500, well, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

doublem23
05-12-2010, 01:35 PM
Sounds like the +1/-1 system for off season evaluation. I forget which writer coined the brilliant analysis.

Phil Rodgers

doublem23
05-12-2010, 01:40 PM
It was mentioned earlier that if the Sox had Swisher, they probably wouldn't have acquired Rios. Do you think that's a good possibility? Whom would you rather have at this point? It's a decent argument because of the money Rios is making.

I would have liked Swisher to stay with the Sox in a non-lead off, non-CF capacity. Unfortunately he didn't get that chance.

I still don't necessarily see why Swisher would preclude Rios, since we'd still have a giant hole in CF which Rios has filled nicely. I get the money might not have worked, but I don't know if that's a fact, if we'd kept Swisher we would have had to have traded Dye or Konerko before 2009 to make room for Nick everyday and the Jays were pretty bent on dumping Rios, who knows if a trade could have been arranged with them to eat some of that deal? There's all sorts of variables here, I'm not 100% sure it's as black as white that keep Swisher = No Rios.

voodoochile
05-12-2010, 03:21 PM
:rolleyes:

A) Getting on base is the most important thing in baseball, it's the basis for being able to do anything offensively.

As for R and RBI they're great stats, but usually aren't great for individual analysis since you generally need guys on base in front of you or guys hitting behind you to make them worthwhile. Essentially, if you're saying Player A is better than Player B and all you've got is Player A scored more runs or drove in more runs, that is a terrible argument.

As for Swisher, hey, I know he was a d-bag at the end of his tenure here, but it's still about winning games on the field. If you're much happier watching Nice Guy Jermaine Dye go into a Death Spiral at the end of last year or watching Nice Guy Juan Pierre helplessly ground out instead of watching D-bag Nick Swisher slug .500, well, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

R and RBI shouldn't be precluded from analysis of whether a player is effective. It is part of the picture. Only talking about slash lines doesn't build a complete image of the player even if you look at RISP splits.

The name of the game is runs, creating and preventing them. Obviously there are a bunch of parts that go into both sides of that equation, but to completely dismiss runs and RBI as unnecessary when evaluating individual players leads to incomplete analysis, IMO.

Madscout
05-12-2010, 03:45 PM
because just maybe a young fresh talented team can bring some exciting wins.

I seemed to remember a great young squad in 1990 that lot of people didn't have faith in but they won about 94 games.
Exactly what "fresh young talent" do you expect to get for the likes of these guys?

Tragg
05-12-2010, 04:25 PM
I would be perfectly happy not having traded for Swisher and put Sweeney in the outfield and Gio in the rotation. That would have relieved a lot of payroll and maybe, just maybe, we could have signed a real hitter instead of the stiffs we signed.

Talent evaluation.

Bobby Thigpen
05-15-2010, 04:39 PM
As for Swisher, hey, I know he was a d-bag at the end of his tenure here, but it's still about winning games on the field. If you're much happier watching Nice Guy Jermaine Dye go into a Death Spiral at the end of last year or watching Nice Guy Juan Pierre helplessly ground out instead of watching D-bag Nick Swisher slug .500, well, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Yes I would much rather watch Jermaine Dye go into a Death Spiral and still finish with higher numbers than Swisher did here without acting like a complete cry baby d-bag while doing it.

I just don't understand why people want Swisher around. He was crappy here and he was a complete d-bag while doing it. In fact, he's still a d-bag. He's just on a team in a city that is full of them so no one cares. While still playing barely above marginal surrounded by all-stars.

doublem23
05-15-2010, 10:09 PM
Yes I would much rather watch Jermaine Dye go into a Death Spiral and still finish with higher numbers than Swisher did here without acting like a complete cry baby d-bag while doing it.

I just don't understand why people want Swisher around. He was crappy here and he was a complete d-bag while doing it. In fact, he's still a d-bag. He's just on a team in a city that is full of them so no one cares. While still playing barely above marginal surrounded by all-stars.

If you just don't like the guy, that's fine, but at least just admit it and move on rather than BLATANTLY making up stuff. Barely marginal? Since joining the Yankees his slash is .258/.372/.507, which is an OPS+ of 134. I wouldn't mind having Swisher around because he's a switch hitter with some pop who gets on base all the time (AKA, exactly what this team needs). At the time the Sox dumped him on the Yankees I was more OK with it because I was still under the impression Ozzie and KW had a grand plan, but it's becoming more and more evident that they either have no idea what they're doing right now or absolutely cannot execute their vision, since our team is stacked with low-OBP guys who can't hit the ball with RISP. Our offense is terrible, anybody who actually argues we'd still be worse off with Swisher than without is not paying attention, is just horribly biased against the guy (which, like I said, I can understand, but please just admit that's what your angle is), or you really think keeping Swisher would have precluded the Sox from acquiring Alex Rios (a perfectly defensible position that, while I do not necessarily agree with, I concede would be good reason to let the man go).

A lot of **** went down when Nick was here; he got bumped out of his position by Quentin and then got jerked around for Griffey, who really didn't perform any better than he did while with the Sox save for that OF assist in the Blackout Game, and I understand why the Sox gave up on him so quickly, but seeing how well he has played in NY where he has a very stable position (and considering the nose dives taken by both Jermaine and Carlos), yes, it was a mistake giving him away as soon as we did.

P.S., this is the same guy who raises millions of dollars for a variety of charities for sick kids, abused animals, military families, and cancer patients. WHAT A ****ING DICK.

Tragg
05-16-2010, 02:03 PM
A) Getting on base is the most important thing in baseball, it's the basis for being able to do anything offensively.

the field manager disagees with that statement most strongly ( which explains a lot of the hitting woes)

russ99
05-16-2010, 02:49 PM
A) Getting on base is the most important thing in baseball, it's the basis for being able to do anything offensively.

the field manager disagees with that statement most strongly ( which explains a lot of the hitting woes)

Really?

Do you have a quote on this, or is this your assumption?

I thought Ozzie's NL-style philosophy places importance on getting on base, but our players are awful at executing it.

Or are you continuing to rail on the inane and false point that Ozzie acquires the Sox players?

Rockabilly
05-16-2010, 03:39 PM
anyone ready to join in me and getting rid of most of the talent on this lousy ass ball club

we were an inning away from getting swept by KC

Marqhead
05-16-2010, 04:00 PM
anyone ready to join in me and getting rid of most of the talent on this lousy ass ball club



No.

DirtySox
05-16-2010, 06:31 PM
Texas has been interested in AJ, but ownership situations are causing complications.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/05/tough-choices-if-white-sox-shake-up-roster.html

DirtySox
05-18-2010, 09:51 AM
Your Guide to a White Sox Fire Sale (http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2010/05/18/your-guide-to-a-white-sox-fire-sale/)

WizardsofOzzie
05-19-2010, 12:30 PM
No.

x2

NLaloosh
05-19-2010, 05:37 PM
anyone ready to join in me and getting rid of most of the talent on this lousy ass ball club

we were an inning away from getting swept by KC


Hell Yeah. At this point management has played this organization into such a bad spot that 2009 and 2010 type seasons are all that's possible.

I'd rather watch rookies and a $ 40 mil. payroll while we accumulate some #1 picks and get a few real star players into this system.

I'd rather have a few 60 win seasons going toward a healthy winning organization than an endless string of 70 win seasons.

jabrch
05-19-2010, 05:57 PM
I'd rather have a few 60 win seasons going toward a healthy winning organization than an endless string of 70 win seasons.

If those were our two choices, then I'd agree with you. But that's not the only options. There is an option to get better, without a few 60 win seasons. And there is no such requirement that we have as an endless string of 70 win seasons for this club. Its been since the late 80s that we had more than 2 70 win seasons in a row...

Lip Man 1
05-19-2010, 09:23 PM
Jab:

Technically you are correct, however there's not much of a difference between 79 wins and 80 wins which is what the Sox did in both 97 and 98... coupled with a bad 99 that was a poor period. Nothing really to get excited about those three seasons best known for the infamous "White Flag" trade in 97 and attendance which fell off the face of the Earth compared to the years before.

Lip