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masloan
05-03-2010, 12:40 PM
Cooper gets off pretty easy because of 2005. But has he really been that good?

This is where the White Sox have ranked in team ERA since Cooper has taken over:

2003 - 4th
2004 - 12th
2005 - 1st
2006 - 10th
2007 - 12th
2008 - 6th
2009 - 3rd
2010 - 13th

LoveYourSuit
05-03-2010, 12:46 PM
Add the fact that he has had many expensive pitchers during his time.

It's not like he's working with projects only.

Althought what he did with Thornton and what he's doing with Santos today might be his ticket for a lifetime seat on that bench.

VMSNS
05-03-2010, 12:46 PM
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

hawkjt
05-03-2010, 12:47 PM
In a homer haven like Soxpark, he has been above average 4 of 7 years...and has taken Thornton,Santos,Freddy, Floyd,Danks and MB and gotten a lot out of them.
I think he does a solid job.

masloan
05-03-2010, 12:48 PM
Add the fact that he has had many expensive pitchers during his time.

It's not like he's working with projects only.

Althought what he did with Thornton and what he's doing with Santos today might be his ticket for a lifetime seat on that bench.

I do agree some pitchers have really progressed nicely under him.

masloan
05-03-2010, 12:49 PM
In a homer haven like Soxpark, he has been above average 4 of 7 years...and has taken Thornton,Santos,Freddy, Floyd,Danks and MB and gotten a lot out of them.
I think he does a solid job.

If you want to consider the home ballpark than you should also consider the division that the Sox play in.

GoGoCrede
05-03-2010, 12:50 PM
:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

I'll pull up a chair next to you and bring the soda.

LoveYourSuit
05-03-2010, 12:50 PM
My only gripe with Coop is the bullpen implosions by this team year after year.

LoveYourSuit
05-03-2010, 12:52 PM
If you want to consider the home ballpark than you should also consider the division that the Sox play in.


I would like to see the Sox ERA vs the AL East during his time.

Everytime I see the Red Sox and Yankees I feel like we are giving up minimum 6 runs per game.

ShoelessJoeS
05-03-2010, 01:09 PM
It's hard to believe the Sox were 3rd in team ERA last year.

dickallen15
05-03-2010, 01:22 PM
If you want to consider the home ballpark than you should also consider the division that the Sox play in.
And also consider a number of pitchers have done much better at home than on the road. I think Floyd's ERA was 2.00 lower at USCF last season than on the road.

It amazes me Walker gets blamed for every hitting failure, but Cooper never gets any guff when his pitchers implode.

I personally think its not a coaching issue but a personnel issue. Cooper has had his success stories for sure.

Zisk77
05-03-2010, 01:30 PM
Sox starters are annually among mlb's leaders in quality starts.

masloan
05-03-2010, 01:33 PM
Sox starters are annually among mlb's leaders in quality starts.

That does not really show whether or not Cooper is a good pitching coach. If their bullpen is poor and/or the pitchers get rocked in the other starts do the quality starts matter that much?

Overall ERA is much more indicative of a pitching coach's success than quality starts.

doublem23
05-03-2010, 01:50 PM
Overall ERA is much more indicative of a pitching coach's success than quality starts.

QS is a silly stat, for sure, but if you're basing your argument solely on ERA you've got an awful lot to learn about pitching stats.

masloan
05-03-2010, 01:52 PM
QS is a silly stat, for sure, but if you're basing your argument solely on ERA you've got an awful lot to learn about pitching stats.

Once again you fail to address the issue at hand. I guess that is your style. ERA is being used as a comparative measure against the other AL teams.

doublem23
05-03-2010, 02:00 PM
Once again you fail to address the issue at hand. I guess that is your style. ERA is being used as a comparative measure against the other AL teams.

I've already addressed the issue, I have no desire to get into silly little slap fights with you any more since I dared question the Great Greg Walker and the incredibly anemic Sox offense he oversees. All I'm saying is, from one Sox fan to another, if you're going to start stupid fights for comedy, or whatever, about pitching you better come loaded with more than just ERA. Because we surely wouldn't want you to come off as knowing even less than you already do.

masloan
05-03-2010, 02:06 PM
I've already addressed the issue, I have no desire to get into silly little slap fights with you any more since I dared question the Great Greg Walker and the incredibly anemic Sox offense he oversees. All I'm saying is, from one Sox fan to another, if you're going to start stupid fights for comedy, or whatever, about pitching you better come loaded with more than just ERA. Because we surely wouldn't want you to come off as knowing even less than you already do.

Trust me, I am not worried about how I "come off" on this message board. I am just discussing my opinion, and you refuse to actually argue the point. You attack me personally, and you point to one minor aspect of my argument. You still have not explained why you think Cooper has done a good job. And 2005 is not a good enough answer.

TomBradley72
05-03-2010, 02:37 PM
Cooper gets off pretty easy because of 2005. But has he really been that good?

This is where the White Sox have ranked in team ERA since Cooper has taken over:

2003 - 4th
2004 - 12th
2005 - 1st
2006 - 10th
2007 - 12th
2008 - 6th
2009 - 3rd
2010 - 13th

If you rank by "team runs scored"...Walker's record looks very similar:

2003 - 8th
2004 - 3rd
2005 - 9th
2006 - 3rd
2007 - 14th
2008 - 5th
2009 - 12th
2010 - 11th

But the pitchforks are reserved for him alone.

jabrch
05-03-2010, 02:52 PM
If you rank by "team runs scored"...Walker's record looks very similar:

2003 - 8th
2004 - 3rd
2005 - 9th
2006 - 3rd
2007 - 14th
2008 - 5th
2009 - 12th
2010 - 11th

But the pitchforks are reserved for him alone.

Fire Walk! That will fix things.

downstairs
05-03-2010, 02:54 PM
ERA is a shaky way to evaluate an individual pitcher, much less a coach's performance with the entire team.

masloan
05-03-2010, 03:07 PM
ERA is a shaky way to evaluate an individual pitcher, much less a coach's performance with the entire team.

While that might be true, a comparative analysis of the team's AL ranking over 7 seasons can provide a pretty decent evaluation of the performance of the pitching staff.

dickallen15
05-03-2010, 03:10 PM
ERA is a shaky way to evaluate an individual pitcher, much less a coach's performance with the entire team.

The ERA is indicative on how many runs they are giving up. They have also had issues the past several years giving up runs after errors are committed. There is no doubt KW hasn't helped his pitching staff with the brutal defense he's thrown out there, but why is Greg Walker held accountable when offenses that feature the likes of Darrin Erstad, Andy Gonzalez, Brent Lillibridge and Dewayne Wise and Omar Vizquel at 43 and Mark Kotsay fail when Cooper isn't held accountable when his pitching staff, something the Sox have spent more money on per man the past several years, fails. Why when Buehrle falls apart after his no hitters or the second half of 2006, or Bobby Jenks doesn't throw 100 anymore, or Peavy struggles or Floyd starts the year looking lost again or Randy Williams cannot throw a strike or Scott Linebrink isn't automatic, is that not on Coop ? If they were position players and they failed it would be all Greg Walker's fault.

RANDY WILES
05-03-2010, 03:38 PM
Cooper gets off pretty easy because of 2005. But has he really been that good?

This is where the White Sox have ranked in team ERA since Cooper has taken over:

2003 - 4th
2004 - 12th
2005 - 1st
2006 - 10th
2007 - 12th
2008 - 6th
2009 - 3rd
2010 - 13th

The numbers don't lie. Under Walker they regress--under Cooper they improve then regress.

If Iwere CEO of this operation I would try these players with different management and coaches before I backed up the "trade wagon".

SI1020
05-03-2010, 03:59 PM
If you're going to attribute pitching and hitting performance to the respective coaches then without Cooper they are down one ring and without Walker they still have it. Cooper seems to face a different set of problems every year, and appears to me at least to have ideas and solutions tailored to the individual pitcher. He has had his success stories. With Sox hitters it's the same old same old every year no matter what the personnel turnover. Same mistakes different players. That's what frustrates some of us greatly. If you're going to go on the stats used here, Cooper is still the better coach.

ike from nj
05-03-2010, 04:03 PM
Just curious...how many all-star appearances during Cooper's tenure.

GoGoCrede
05-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Just curious...how many all-star appearances during Cooper's tenure.

I don't know how much credibility you can give All-Star appearances ever since fans were able to vote their favorites in, to be honest.

CHISOXFAN13
05-03-2010, 04:08 PM
I don't know how much credibility you can give All-Star appearances ever since fans were able to vote their favorites in, to be honest.

Fans aren't voting pitchers into the game.

ike from nj
05-03-2010, 04:09 PM
I don't know how much credibility you can give All-Star appearances ever since fans were able to vote their favorites in, to be honest.
Fans dont vote for pitchers...still curious

spawn
05-03-2010, 04:09 PM
I don't know how much credibility you can give All-Star appearances ever since fans were able to vote their favorites in, to be honest.
Yeah, but fans don't vote the pitchers in. I also don't believe All-Star appearances are indicative of how good a team's pitching staff is.

GoGoCrede
05-03-2010, 04:10 PM
Fans aren't voting pitchers into the game.

Fans dont vote for pitchers...still curious

Yeah, but fans don't vote the pitchers in. I also don't believe All-Star appearances are indicative of how good a team's pitching staff is.

Damn, I suck. Never mind, moving on! :redface:

masloan
05-03-2010, 04:13 PM
If you're going to attribute pitching and hitting performance to the respective coaches then without Cooper they are down one ring and without Walker they still have it. Cooper seems to face a different set of problems every year, and appears to me at least to have ideas and solutions tailored to the individual pitcher. He has had his success stories. With Sox hitters it's the same old same old every year no matter what the personnel turnover. Same mistakes different players. That's what frustrates some of us greatly. If you're going to go on the stats used here, Cooper is still the better coach.

But I am not trying to prove that Walker is a better coach than Cooper. I am just trying to figure out why people think Cooper is so great. 3 out of his 7 seasons the White Sox were 10th or lower in ERA. How can that be considered so good? Cooper has a "great" pitching staff this year, and they are struggling. Is that Cooper's fault? If not, why have a pitching coach?

Nellie_Fox
05-03-2010, 04:16 PM
**** it. Fire everybody. Right down to the last peanut vendor; they're obviously not creating the right ballpark spirit.

Then we won't have to have a separate thread picking apart every employee on the Sox.

TomBradley72
05-03-2010, 04:20 PM
If you look at the long term "volatility" of the White Sox offense and pitching (big swings), I'd put the responsibility at the KW level, and specifically the farm system.

Every year Kenny has to re-engineer the roster at the major league level through trades or free agency. That leads to alot of "new parts" every season (i.e. in the bullpen, CF, 3rd base, lead off hitter, etc.)...which seems to be hit (2005, 2008) and miss (2007, this year?). The elite franchise are more consistent than the White Sox.

masloan
05-03-2010, 04:22 PM
If you look at the long term "volatility" of the White Sox offense and pitching (big swings), I'd put the responsibility at the KW level, and specifically the farm system.

Every year Kenny has to re-engineer the roster at the major league level through trades or free agency. That leads to alot of "new parts" every season (i.e. in the bullpen, CF, 3rd base, lead off hitter, etc.)...which seems to be hit (2005, 2008) and miss (2007, this year?). The elite franchise are more consistent than the White Sox.

I absolutely agree. I actually do not think Walker or Cooper are at fault.

SI1020
05-03-2010, 04:57 PM
**** it. Fire everybody. Right down to the last peanut vendor; they're obviously not creating the right ballpark spirit.

Then we won't have to have a separate thread picking apart every employee on the Sox. The team finally won something in our lifetime. Who wants to go back to the late 90's and 80's or that mostly dreadful era from 68-80? We can't grab control of the wheel so we cyber yell at those who we think can.

tsoxman
05-03-2010, 05:21 PM
Cooper gets off pretty easy because of 2005. But has he really been that good?

This is where the White Sox have ranked in team ERA since Cooper has taken over:

2003 - 4th
2004 - 12th
2005 - 1st
2006 - 10th
2007 - 12th
2008 - 6th
2009 - 3rd
2010 - 13th

FWIW, his is how the team ranked in the sabermetric FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) statistic. This statistic measures pitching solely based on walks and home runs allowed and strike outs. (That is, anything not inflenced by defense).
2003 - 4th
2004 - 12th
2005 - 5th
2006 - 10th
2007 - 10th
2008 - 3rd
2009 - 3rd
2010 - 4th

sullythered
05-03-2010, 05:41 PM
Dave Duncan's team ERA rankings, '03 through last year in the NL:
2003: 11th
2004: 2nd
2005: 1st
2006: 9th
2007: 11th
2008: 7th
2009: 4th

Most people would probably argue that he's the best in the biz, and his staff numbers fluctuate pretty violently, too. It's just not a very good way to judge a pitching coach.

masloan
05-03-2010, 06:08 PM
Dave Duncan's team ERA rankings, '03 through last year in the NL:
2003: 11th
2004: 2nd
2005: 1st
2006: 9th
2007: 11th
2008: 7th
2009: 4th

Most people would probably argue that he's the best in the biz, and his staff numbers fluctuate pretty violently, too. It's just not a very good way to judge a pitching coach.

That is a very fair point. What do you think is a better way to judge a pitching coach? And while we are on this topic, what is the best way to judge a hitting coach as well?

Frontman
05-03-2010, 06:30 PM
And also consider a number of pitchers have done much better at home than on the road. I think Floyd's ERA was 2.00 lower at USCF last season than on the road.

It amazes me Walker gets blamed for every hitting failure, but Cooper never gets any guff when his pitchers implode.

I personally think its not a coaching issue but a personnel issue. Cooper has had his success stories for sure.

I think its because Coop won't give lame excuses like Walker does. When someone sucks; he doesn't mind saying so; versus "Well, I've told him what to do; I don't know....I think this team just needs to lighten up....blah, blah, blah."

To me; Coop has proven he can work with various levels of talent. He took Gavin Floyd and made a very successful pitcher out of him. He did the same with Danks. He got something out of Thorton that many never thought possible.

But he also has had a few failures. Neal Cotts, David Aardsma, and "wet the bed Javy" Vasquez comes to mind.

balke
05-03-2010, 06:59 PM
But I am not trying to prove that Walker is a better coach than Cooper. I am just trying to figure out why people think Cooper is so great. 3 out of his 7 seasons the White Sox were 10th or lower in ERA. How can that be considered so good? Cooper has a "great" pitching staff this year, and they are struggling. Is that Cooper's fault? If not, why have a pitching coach?


You want statistical data? Where the Sox rank overall doesn't really mean much if you want to know why Coop has his reputation.

The Sox got Contreras who was worthless in New York and turned him into a big time winner when healthy.

Thornton was groomed into what he is. Floyd, Loaiza, Santos. How many examples do you need really? You're not going to be able to rattle off names of pitching coaches who have seemed to have such an immediate impact on pitchers coming into their system.

If you want to cry about the pitching staff not being the best in the league in April or May that's great. You did it. At the end of the year if Peavy gets his 180 - 200Ks while under 3.50 ERA you better have the same attitude to praise Don Cooper.

I guess the real answer is if you need to question why Coop is considered to be so good, you haven't been watching the past 7 years. And if you think 1-2 months is a season you haven't watched much baseball in general.

I've heard a statistic before that Managers and coaches have been speculated to account in about a 20% difference in the performance of a team. I think for some pitchers Coop has completely turned around many of their careers. That for me puts him over the top and then some.

I think in a lot of systems Jon Garland would've completely floundered. I think Gavin Floyd and Jose Contreras could've been out of the league by now. Santos wouldn't be playing baseball.

If you want to say you are upset about the Sox pitching so far - I can handle that - but to question Don Cooper's performance is just flat out stupid. Just watch baseball. Watch the team and how players perform here.

And if you are going to discount 2005 - then I get to discount 2010 cause its barely started yet.

balke
05-03-2010, 07:04 PM
That is a very fair point. What do you think is a better way to judge a pitching coach? And while we are on this topic, what is the best way to judge a hitting coach as well?

One way I can think of that's pretty quick...

Who has Don Cooper had success with?

Who has Walker had success with?

How many people have come into this system and gotten better?

Walker has had a lot of success with veterans (Dye, Konerko, Jones, Rios) and Quentin that I can think of. I think a really good question is why there aren't any surprises from the minors.

Why did Joe Crede, Willie Harris, Josh Fields, Brian Anderson, and this year so far Beckham all seem to fizzle instead of flourish? And why do the really good hitters for the Sox seem to be prone to half season slumps? Not just a month or two, but entire half seasons?

sullythered
05-03-2010, 07:30 PM
One way I can think of that's pretty quick...

Who has Don Cooper had success with?

Who has Walker had success with?

How many people have come into this system and gotten better?

Walker has had a lot of success with veterans (Dye, Konerko, Jones, Rios) and Quentin that I can think of. I think a really good question is why there aren't any surprises from the minors.

Why did Joe Crede, Willie Harris, Josh Fields, Brian Anderson, and this year so far Beckham all seem to fizzle instead of flourish? And why do the really good hitters for the Sox seem to be prone to half season slumps? Not just a month or two, but entire half seasons?
Because they're bad players.

Crede was just too hurty, and it's just silly to say Beckham has "fizzled" at this juncture.

JB98
05-03-2010, 07:31 PM
Here's my thought on all this: If the White Sox fired Don Cooper tomorrow, some other club would hire him. I guarantee it. Coop has a pretty damn good reputation in the game. If the White Sox fired Greg Walker tomorrow, would any other MLB team employ him as its hitting coach? :scratch:

balke
05-03-2010, 07:44 PM
Because they're bad players.

Crede was just too hurty, and it's just silly to say Beckham has "fizzled" at this juncture.

I agree mostly. Crede wouldn't have lasted in the league without his glove. His hitting just wasn't good enough for a professional 3Bman. These are some of the better and more anticipated minor league hitting prospects. They all didn't turn into much. Crede was great - only because of the glove.

Beckham has a lot of potential. If he plays his way back into the minors and eventually to nothing more than Jeremy Reed status... what do you say about that? You say he was a bad player.

Is he? Is he a bad player? How many people come through your minor league system with ability that fizzles out that you can discount as being bad? Flowers, Lucy, Retherford, Mitchell, Danks...

If none of these guys end up playing for the Sox in 2012 - are they all bad players?

sullythered
05-03-2010, 07:54 PM
I agree mostly. Crede wouldn't have lasted in the league without his glove. His hitting just wasn't good enough for a professional 3Bman. These are some of the better and more anticipated minor league hitting prospects. They all didn't turn into much. Crede was great - only because of the glove.

Beckham has a lot of potential. If he plays his way back into the minors and eventually to nothing more than Jeremy Reed status... what do you say about that? You say he was a bad player.

Is he? Is he a bad player? How many people come through your minor league system with ability that fizzles out that you can discount as being bad? Flowers, Lucy, Retherford, Mitchell, Danks...

If none of these guys end up playing for the Sox in 2012 - are they all bad players?

I tend to lean towards "yes." I think if a player is really good, he'll end up performing, despite his major league hitting coach. I think if Albert Pujols or Joe Mauer had come up under the worst hitting coach in the majors, they would still be super awesome. Conversely, I think Brent Lillibridge would still suck even if the supreme god of hitting coaches descended from Olympus to give him personal instructions. (sorry, too much God of War 3):tongue:

doublem23
05-03-2010, 08:02 PM
Trust me, I am not worried about how I "come off" on this message board. I am just discussing my opinion, and you refuse to actually argue the point. You attack me personally, and you point to one minor aspect of my argument. You still have not explained why you think Cooper has done a good job. And 2005 is not a good enough answer.

World Series titles aren't good enough for you? Then we have nothing to talk about.

JermaineDye05
05-03-2010, 08:06 PM
Coop is not the problem.

The threads that have surfaced the past month have been ridiculous.

At what point do we finally blame the players?

The coaches aren't the ones out there on the field struggling.

Medford Bobby
05-03-2010, 08:09 PM
http://sweetspotsignatures.mybisi.com/images/products/todd-ritchie-2002-topps-total-autograph_1470330_290.jpg
I wonder if he is on Don Coopers Christmas card list?:scratch:

Daver
05-03-2010, 08:41 PM
Trust me, I am not worried about how I "come off" on this message board. I am just discussing my opinion, and you refuse to actually argue the point. You attack me personally, and you point to one minor aspect of my argument. You still have not explained why you think Cooper has done a good job. And 2005 is not a good enough answer.

What point?

ERA is a flawed stat that does not measure pitching performance as much as it measures team defense.

TaylorStSox
05-03-2010, 11:18 PM
Hitting and pitching coaches teach philosophies. They're not ****ing magicians. You either agree with their line of thought or you don't. This isn't rocket science. These threads are ridiculous! Coop tells his guys to pitch to contact. That's what the debate should be about. Should they pitch to contact or should they try to strike everybody out.

I'm going back to lurking because the over analysis that's going on right now on this site is bordering on creepy. Really... You're debating individual pitchers stats to deem the value of a pitching coach? ***

masloan
05-03-2010, 11:40 PM
World Series titles aren't good enough for you? Then we have nothing to talk about.

Your reading comprehension is really embarrassing.

masloan
05-03-2010, 11:41 PM
What point?

ERA is a flawed stat that does not measure pitching performance as much as it measures team defense.

So you are telling me that ERA has provides no comparative value?

masloan
05-03-2010, 11:42 PM
Hitting and pitching coaches teach philosophies. They're not ****ing magicians. You either agree with their line of thought or you don't. This isn't rocket science. These threads are ridiculous! Coop tells his guys to pitch to contact. That's what the debate should be about. Should they pitch to contact or should they try to strike everybody out.

I'm going back to lurking because the over analysis that's going on right now on this site is bordering on creepy. Really... You're debating individual pitchers stats to deem the value of a pitching coach? ***

I acually completely agree with you. I think all this blaming coaches is ridiculous. My point was for those who blame Walker, why does Cooper get off easy. People act like Cooper is God...but 3 out of the 7 seasons he has been in charge of pitching the Sox pitching was awful.

balke
05-04-2010, 12:44 AM
I acually completely agree with you. I think all this blaming coaches is ridiculous. My point was for those who blame Walker, why does Cooper get off easy. People act like Cooper is God...but 3 out of the 7 seasons he has been in charge of pitching the Sox pitching was awful.

I think because the return from the quality of pitchers that have come in has more often than not been a high return. You can't say that about the hitting other than Quentin - who peaked and fell.

I've called for Walker to be gone 4-5 years ago but anymore I don't think its going to make much of a difference. But, to start a thread about Coop to try and defend Walker is ignorant. People aren't blaming Walker based on where the batting average is alone year after year - they are more upset about the ridiculous slumps these hitters go through, guys who can't hit for power taking upper cut swings with 2 outs, and the lack of any surprises coming out of the minors for years.

There's been few bright spots for Walker - not much to point to in terms of success. Its pretty in your face and simple to see that Don Cooper has brought the best talent out of a lot of players who have come into this clubhouse.

I have more faith in Dan Hudson being some kind of pitcher in this system 3-4 years from now, than I do of any hitter in the minors being here. I would believe a pitcher who comes out of the Sox system wins 10 games before a young hitter hits above 20 hrs while hitting .300 or above.

I point back to that 20 percent quote. A coach or manager can only pull out that little extra bit out of a player - make him realize his potential or fine tune his ability. The rest is really up to what talent and ability to listen that player has.

Mark Buehrle was a 36th rounder, Floyd was terrible before he put on a Sox jersey, Danks is doing great, and Peavy seems to have found his groove. Garcia wouldn't be playing baseball right now if he wasn't on this team I don't believe.

So yeah, noone is blaming Coop for anything. He does pretty damn well with what he gets - and seems to be able to find pitchers he can work with to bring in as well.

doublem23
05-04-2010, 01:03 AM
Mark Buehrle was a 36th rounder, Floyd was terrible before he put on a Sox jersey, Danks is doing great, and Peavy seems to have found his groove. Garcia wouldn't be playing baseball right now if he wasn't on this team I don't believe.

You're also forgetting Thornton, who was a total cast-off from the Mariners; Jenks, who the Angels basically released before 2005; and Santos, who is dominating the American League after pitching for less than a year; and Jose Contreras, a failure who was run out of town in New York who became the most dominant pitcher in baseball for about a full season's worth.

doublem23
05-04-2010, 01:05 AM
Your reading comprehension is really embarrassing.

As is your man-crush on Greg Walker.

You like the dude? Fine, we get it. Riding Don Cooper over a month's worth of baseball? Let's just say I'm pretty stoked that you think I'm an idiot; I'm obviously doing something right.

masloan
05-04-2010, 05:30 AM
As is your man-crush on Greg Walker.

You like the dude? Fine, we get it. Riding Don Cooper over a month's worth of baseball? Let's just say I'm pretty stoked that you think I'm an idiot; I'm obviously doing something right.

Since you find ways to avoid responding I will ask you a direct question:

Were you pleased with the White Sox pitching staff in 2004, 2006, and 2007?

masloan
05-04-2010, 05:43 AM
I think because the return from the quality of pitchers that have come in has more often than not been a high return. You can't say that about the hitting other than Quentin - who peaked and fell.

I've called for Walker to be gone 4-5 years ago but anymore I don't think its going to make much of a difference. But, to start a thread about Coop to try and defend Walker is ignorant. People aren't blaming Walker based on where the batting average is alone year after year - they are more upset about the ridiculous slumps these hitters go through, guys who can't hit for power taking upper cut swings with 2 outs, and the lack of any surprises coming out of the minors for years.

There's been few bright spots for Walker - not much to point to in terms of success. Its pretty in your face and simple to see that Don Cooper has brought the best talent out of a lot of players who have come into this clubhouse.

I have more faith in Dan Hudson being some kind of pitcher in this system 3-4 years from now, than I do of any hitter in the minors being here. I would believe a pitcher who comes out of the Sox system wins 10 games before a young hitter hits above 20 hrs while hitting .300 or above.

I point back to that 20 percent quote. A coach or manager can only pull out that little extra bit out of a player - make him realize his potential or fine tune his ability. The rest is really up to what talent and ability to listen that player has.

Mark Buehrle was a 36th rounder, Floyd was terrible before he put on a Sox jersey, Danks is doing great, and Peavy seems to have found his groove. Garcia wouldn't be playing baseball right now if he wasn't on this team I don't believe.

So yeah, noone is blaming Coop for anything. He does pretty damn well with what he gets - and seems to be able to find pitchers he can work with to bring in as well.

It is not ignorant at all. I love how you say that Coop does pretty damn well with what he gets. Prior to Beckham, how many early picks by the Sox were used on batters? How many on pitchers? And I know you are going to say that it is the scouts fault that they drafted poor pitchers.

Would you say the Sox have invested more in hitters or pitchers the last couple years? Last year the White Sox had at times 3 rookies starting in the infield. Pods, Wise and Brian Anderson all played significant time in the OF. This year as everyone talks about constantly the Sox have Pierre and Kotsay playing large roles on this team. And who has more to work with?

I am done with this thread as the only people participating cannot have a serious discussion. Like I have said before, I think the players need to have more accountability than the coaches. And if any non-player should be blamed for struggles at this point I would say it should be Kenny.

balke
05-04-2010, 08:19 AM
Since you find ways to avoid responding I will ask you a direct question:

Were you pleased with the White Sox pitching staff in 2004, 2006, and 2007?


You are asking a complete separate question than what your thread is about. If you truly believe that the players need to be more accountable - then what do those years have to do with Cooper?

Other than not having a 5th starter - 2004 was a pretty good pitching team.

I believe that was also the year where the Sox had some of the best hitting in baseball - yet were shutout more than any team in baseball. Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, Frank Thomas, Roberto Alomar, Carl Everett, Konerko, Olivo.

The early 2000's were the layout for this HR or nothing rut the Sox dug themselves into offensively. Slowly they try to climb out - but does anyone know how get them to hit doubles down the line and bloops instead of gap doubles and homeruns? Will they ever be good at getting the runner in from 3rd with less than 2 outs? Can the team avoid these ridiculous slumps that have plagued them throughout the majority of the decade?

masloan
05-04-2010, 08:26 AM
You are asking a complete separate question than what your thread is about. If you truly believe that the players need to be more accountable - then what do those years have to do with Cooper?

Other than not having a 5th starter - 2004 was a pretty good pitching team.

I believe that was also the year where the Sox had some of the best hitting in baseball - yet were shutout more than any team in baseball. Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, Frank Thomas, Roberto Alomar, Carl Everett, Konerko, Olivo.

The early 2000's were the layout for this HR or nothing rut the Sox dug themselves into offensively. Slowly they try to climb out - but does anyone know how get them to hit doubles down the line and bloops instead of gap doubles and homeruns? Will they ever be good at getting the runner in from 3rd with less than 2 outs? Can the team avoid these ridiculous slumps that have plagued them throughout the majority of the decade?

But is problem with the home run or nothing offense the players or the coaches? I believe its the players for the most part. And in turn the responsibility would be on Kenny.

balke
05-04-2010, 08:37 AM
But is problem with the home run or nothing offense the players or the coaches? I believe its the players for the most part. And in turn the responsibility would be on Kenny.

Then again... what does that have to do with Cooper?

I can never support an anti-Kenny stance. The talent brought in has been too good. I also believe even this season these players will perform better - as it heats up the bats will heat up.

I'll just be extremely disappointed if the Sox get yet another prospect (Beckham) who develops a hole in his swing and ends up in the recycle bin. A lot of teams would've killed for this kid on draft day. It was rumored the Sox could've gotten Adrian Gonzalez for him to start the year. Certainly last year there seemed to be no problem with him. And it'll be damn hard for me to disassociate the Walker effect if he goes from having the early season he did last year - to not being able to make contact on a fastball for 2 months.


I will also add that in 2003-2004 a big problem was the head coach and some of his decisions on handing his players/roster/pitchers. Ozzie was very green back then, and Manuel was terrible.

TomBradley72
05-09-2010, 09:13 AM
Pitching staff is now 11th in the league in team ERA....which is worse, 11th in team pitching with this staff or Walker's 10th place in runs scored with the hitters he has to work with?

doublem23
05-09-2010, 09:19 AM
ERA and only ERA.

:kneeslap:

Maracucho
05-09-2010, 03:09 PM
I'm not a pure stathead, but took a look at starters ERA+ since Cooper has been the pitching coach. I averaged the 3 year before and after joining the Sox, and compared with the time with the Sox. I did this quickly, so the averages don't take into account changes in league ERA, and only looked at pitchers that had changed teams (and actually played for the other teams). So Buehrle and Danks are not included.

It seems that there are 2 clear success stories (Loaiza and Floyd), one clear failure (El Duque, except for the postseason of course). The other SP have numbers with the Sox that are pretty much in line with what they did with other teams. Perhaps it is a little bit soon to judge on garland and vazquez. Now somebody should look at the RPs.


CHW-3 CHW CHW+3
Loaiza 99 135 94
Garland N/A 107 113
Colon 128 120 105
Garcia 106 110 N/A
Contreras 103 102 N/A
Hernandez 117 88 106
Vazquez 112 108 133
Floyd 77 110 N/A

Daver
05-09-2010, 05:10 PM
ERA is a pretty poor way to judge pitchers.

ike from nj
05-09-2010, 05:31 PM
ERA is a pretty poor way to judge pitchers.

Is it? Here are the top 10 and bottom 10 in ERA of currently active pitchers who have pitched 1000 of more innings in their career:

Top
1. Santana
2. Oswalt
3. Peavy
4. Halladay
5. Hudson
6. Zambrano
7. Sabathia
8. Haren
9. Wood
10. Zito

Bottom
1. Elarton
2. Jamey Wright
3. Hendrickson
4. Robertson
5. Ramon Ortiz
6. Rodrigo Lopez
7. Brian Moehler
8. Kyle Lohse
9. Jeff Suppan
10. Carlos Silva

So while the actual ERA might not tell us how good or bad a pitcher is, when you use it to compare pitchers is actually provides some value. It is clear that the Top 10 guys are much better pitchers than the bottom 10. You do not need ERA to tell you that. But ERA does tell you that as well.

Daver
05-09-2010, 05:42 PM
My statement stands.

ERA allows a pitcher to hide his own mistakes because walks and hit batsmen are unearned runs.

dickallen15
05-09-2010, 07:08 PM
My statement stands.

ERA allows a pitcher to hide his own mistakes because walks and hit batsmen are unearned runs.

No they are not.

TDog
05-09-2010, 07:53 PM
My statement stands.

ERA allows a pitcher to hide his own mistakes because walks and hit batsmen are unearned runs.

Even a runner who reaches first on a swinging third strike who comes around to score without the benefit of an error is an earned run if strike three was ruled a wild pitch. If the third strike was ruled a passed ball, the run would be unearned.

In general teams, earned runs are runs the pitcher would have given up without errors or passed balls, even pitchers' errors. Sometimes there are earned runs charged to a pitcher that aren't counted against the team ERA.

ERAs can be deceptive, especially for relief pitchers. The statistic was meant to gauge starting pitchers who were looking at pitching nine innings. At one time, only pitchers who pitched at least 10 complete games qualified to lead the league in ERA. Now it is rather an arbitrary number.

But every statistic can be deceptive.

masloan
05-09-2010, 07:55 PM
My statement stands.

ERA allows a pitcher to hide his own mistakes because walks and hit batsmen are unearned runs.

Wow. I was told to beware of Daver when it comes to using statistics to judge players. Not sure how much validity your arguments can have after this statement.

jabrch
05-10-2010, 02:39 AM
My statement stands.

ERA allows a pitcher to hide his own mistakes because walks and hit batsmen are unearned runs.

Since when?

TomBradley72
05-10-2010, 07:42 AM
My statement stands.

ERA allows a pitcher to hide his own mistakes because walks and hit batsmen are unearned runs.

Wow.

JC456
05-10-2010, 12:49 PM
All I know, is whoever is calling pitches from the dugout, PLEASE STOP!!! You stink!

Also, successful pitchers move the ball around and change velocity. Never let a hitter lock onto a pattern. Our pattern has been consistent for years. If it doesn't change bye bye season.

LoveYourSuit
05-10-2010, 12:50 PM
My statement stands.

ERA allows a pitcher to hide his own mistakes because walks and hit batsmen are unearned runs.


:?:

Harry Chappas
05-13-2010, 11:58 AM
But I am not trying to prove that Walker is a better coach than Cooper. I am just trying to figure out why people think Cooper is so great. 3 out of his 7 seasons the White Sox were 10th or lower in ERA. How can that be considered so good? Cooper has a "great" pitching staff this year, and they are struggling. Is that Cooper's fault? If not, why have a pitching coach?

Is it possible that our pitchers haven't been that good and have played up to - or even exceeded - their potential? What verifiable "aces" have the Sox had? You could argue MB and Danks may be on his way, but I must have missed the years when then Sox filled their rotation with perennial all-stars.

Look at it this way, the Sox were #1 in 2005 with a bunch of cast-offs who either didn't live up to their expectations elsewhere (Contreras), were considered past their prime (Orlando Hernandez), or had been considered busts (Garland). Consider also that they featured THREE different closers and none of them were named Hoffman or Rivera.

masloan
05-14-2010, 09:30 AM
Is it possible that our pitchers haven't been that good and have played up to - or even exceeded - their potential? What verifiable "aces" have the Sox had? You could argue MB and Danks may be on his way, but I must have missed the years when then Sox filled their rotation with perennial all-stars.

Look at it this way, the Sox were #1 in 2005 with a bunch of cast-offs who either didn't live up to their expectations elsewhere (Contreras), were considered past their prime (Orlando Hernandez), or had been considered busts (Garland). Consider also that they featured THREE different closers and none of them were named Hoffman or Rivera.

Yes, that is possible. In my opinion people just have this thing with Cooper where he can do no wrong. The White Sox also have not had many perennial all start hitters over the last few years either. But when the Sox struggle hitting with poor hitters it is Walker's fault. When Sox pitchers struggle than it is not Cooper, it is just that the pitchers are not very good. Cooper may be a much better coach than Walker. But there is just such a double standard amongst White Sox fans.

doublem23
05-14-2010, 09:57 AM
Yes, that is possible. In my opinion people just have this thing with Cooper where he can do no wrong. The White Sox also have not had many perennial all start hitters over the last few years either. But when the Sox struggle hitting with poor hitters it is Walker's fault. When Sox pitchers struggle than it is not Cooper, it is just that the pitchers are not very good. Cooper may be a much better coach than Walker. But there is just such a double standard amongst White Sox fans.

How many damn times does it need to be mentioned that the Sox pitching has been much better during Cooper's tenure than the hitting has been during Walker's? On top of that, he's helped develop a lot of arms for us... Floyd was basically a cast-off from Philadelphia, Contreras was a cast-off from New York, Jenks, Thornton, and now Santos were all struggling to stay in the minors before they started working with the Sox pitching coaches.

Cooper gets a much bigger benefit of the doubt because he's proven himself. That's how the world works, you can earn yourself some leeway. That whole 2005 thing really plays nicely for him, too.

jabrch
05-14-2010, 10:37 AM
My statement stands.

ERA allows a pitcher to hide his own mistakes because walks and hit batsmen are unearned runs.


Daver - still curious as to what this means...

masloan
05-14-2010, 11:01 AM
How many damn times does it need to be mentioned that the Sox pitching has been much better during Cooper's tenure than the hitting has been during Walker's? On top of that, he's helped develop a lot of arms for us... Floyd was basically a cast-off from Philadelphia, Contreras was a cast-off from New York, Jenks, Thornton, and now Santos were all struggling to stay in the minors before they started working with the Sox pitching coaches.

Cooper gets a much bigger benefit of the doubt because he's proven himself. That's how the world works, you can earn yourself some leeway. That whole 2005 thing really plays nicely for him, too.

While I think all of us would definitely not trade the 2005 season for anything, i just love how you still talk about someones performance from 5 years ago as a reason to have faith in them.

dickallen15
05-14-2010, 11:03 AM
How many damn times does it need to be mentioned that the Sox pitching has been much better during Cooper's tenure than the hitting has been during Walker's? On top of that, he's helped develop a lot of arms for us... Floyd was basically a cast-off from Philadelphia, Contreras was a cast-off from New York, Jenks, Thornton, and now Santos were all struggling to stay in the minors before they started working with the Sox pitching coaches.

Cooper gets a much bigger benefit of the doubt because he's proven himself. That's how the world works, you can earn yourself some leeway. That whole 2005 thing really plays nicely for him, too.

Konerko was hitting below .200 with little power when Walker came over. Dye was a castoff, signing for a bargain wage. Thome was coming off an injury and Philadelphia payed a ton of money to trade him. Pods was coming off a horrible year. Uribe was scrap. Rowand was so good KW got Carl Everett to play CF. I think Walker has been far more successful than you think. You'll say Thome and Dye had success elsewhere which would be true, but Thornton and Floyd were top picks and prospects for their old teams and Contreras was supposed to be a stud for NY, and actually performed pretty well in 2003 in fact dominating a White Sox team in September. Jenks had issues other than baseball with the Angels.

masloan
05-14-2010, 11:13 AM
Konerko was hitting below .200 with little power when Walker came over. Dye was a castoff, signing for a bargain wage. Thome was coming off an injury and Philadelphia payed a ton of money to trade him. Pods was coming off a horrible year. Uribe was scrap. Rowand was so good KW got Carl Everett to play CF. I think Walker has been far more successful than you think. You'll say Thome and Dye had success elsewhere which would be true, but Thornton and Floyd were top picks and prospects for their old teams and Contreras was supposed to be a stud for NY, and actually performed pretty well in 2003 in fact dominating a White Sox team in September. Jenks had issues other than baseball with the Angels.

Completely agree. I really do not think anyone can argue that Walker has been given more to work with than Cooper. The Sox might not have "perennial all stars", but I would say that his pitching staff has had much more consistant talent than Cooper's hitters over the last 5 or so years.

jabrch
05-14-2010, 11:25 AM
Generally, baseball coaches and managers get too much credit for good things and too much blame for bad things. I think this is a great example. Cooper gets too much credit - Walker too much blame. I think the truth is that both do a decent job based on my understanding of the job descriptions.