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thomas35forever
04-30-2010, 10:50 PM
Thornton has cost the White Sox three games this season.

On April 8, pitching with a one-run lead in the top of the eighth inning, Thornton struck out Sizemore and Choo before giving up a single to Hafner and a run-scoring double to Peralta to be tagged with a blown save. There was an intentional walk and a wild pitch before he struck out Valbuena to end the inning.

Jenks came in with the score tied in the ninth. The first hitter reached on an error. Then there was a sacrifice and two strikeouts, but I'm sure people were nervous and cursing Guillen for bringing in Jenks with the score tied.

The Indians scored two in the 11th against Putz to win.
This makes we wonder why everybody is quick to pile on Jenks but always gives Thornton a free pass? I know Thornton's not our closer, but he's still been far from perfect. As reliable as he's been, he still has to take some heat for not doing his job in tight situations.

twinsuck
04-30-2010, 10:56 PM
I never gave him a free pass. I still haven't forgiven Thornton for giving up that grand slam to the Rays last year in April. We could have swept those guys if it wasn't for him.

guillensdisciple
04-30-2010, 10:56 PM
This makes we wonder why everybody is quick to pile on Jenks but always gives Thornton a free pass? I know Thornton's not our closer, but he's still been far from perfect. As reliable as he's been, he still has to take some heat for not doing his job in tight situations.


Especially this season- it seems like he has slipped under the radar. I am hoping this becomes something more people notice.

LoveYourSuit
04-30-2010, 11:08 PM
Especially this season- it seems like he has slipped under the radar. I am hoping this becomes something more people notice.


Well I'm hoping there is no need for people to take notice because if Thornton is not GRADE A good this year, this team will suck even more.

If it is possible to suck even more, I don't know.

fram40
04-30-2010, 11:44 PM
Thornton has blown quite a few games over the years. But I suppose that's true for everyone who has been a reliever for a long time.

He's been here since 2006 - he has 80 holds and 19 blown saves. He also has 20 losses but many of the losses could be the same game as a blown save. He also has 9 saves.

Given how easy it is to get a hold, I would think a 4.5:1 ratio is really not very good. Especially when "everyone" seems to think he is the best lefty setup guy in the game. I've never trusted him and I knew he would blow tonight's game. I just had a feeling. Kind of the same feeling I get when he faces Sizemore or Morneau or Mauer in a tie game - you just know he gonna blow it. But on opening day - with a 6 run lead - he is unhittable.

But what setup guy has a better record? Guys are releivers for a reason - they aren't very good.

Thorton's stats on mlb.com:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5650

fram40
04-30-2010, 11:53 PM
I never gave him a free pass. I still haven't forgiven Thornton for giving up that grand slam to the Rays last year in April. We could have swept those guys if it wasn't for him.

I haven't forgiven Thornton for the back-to-back blown saves in games #2 and #3 to Cleveland in 2007. As I said above, I don't trust him - not since the HR to Sizemore in Game 2 and Sizemore's single in Game 3 for blown save #2. Despite the fact the Sox came back to win the game.

Rohan
05-01-2010, 01:45 AM
Especially this season- it seems like he has slipped under the radar. I am hoping this becomes something more people notice.

I don't get this entirely get this mentality. Why does it matter if we notice who to place blame on? We're not the one making the calls at all. What we do or do not notice has no effect on the direction of the team.

VMSNS
05-01-2010, 02:19 AM
It probably doesn't help that Ozzie has used him quite a lot this season, so guys probably get a better look at him than normal. Also, he only has 1 and a half pitches, really, so it doesn't really take much imagination to know what's coming.

Still, he throws effortless gas and is widely considered one of the best set-up men in the league (I believe Sports Illustrated had him at #1, with Guerrier coming in 2nd). The guy has been nothing but solid for us 90% of the time.

If Thornton starts to consistently blow games, then I'll worry about it, but for the time being, he has earned my trust and is probably our best pitcher in the pen.

SluggersAway
05-01-2010, 02:44 AM
Damn, I never knew White Sox fans were such whiny ******* and bitches!

Get a ****ing grip! He gave up one pitch to Derek ****ing Jeter!

Sit back. Relax. And, strap it down!

mzh
05-01-2010, 08:39 AM
Damn, I never knew White Sox fans were such whiny ******* and bitches!

Get a ****ing grip! He gave up one pitch to Derek ****ing Jeter!

Sit back. Relax. And, strap it down!
Amen! :thumbsup:

jabrch
05-01-2010, 08:41 AM
"woes"?

For ****s sake - watch baseball with more than a 30 second attention span people....

SephClone89
05-01-2010, 09:05 AM
Damn, I never knew White Sox fans were such whiny ******* and bitches!

Get a ****ing grip! He gave up one pitch to Derek ****ing Jeter!

Sit back. Relax. And, strap it down!

"woes"?

For ****s sake - watch baseball with more than a 30 second attention span people....

:clap::clap::clap:

TDog
05-01-2010, 09:21 AM
It probably doesn't help that Ozzie has used him quite a lot this season, so guys probably get a better look at him than normal. Also, he only has 1 and a half pitches, really, so it doesn't really take much imagination to know what's coming.

Still, he throws effortless gas and is widely considered one of the best set-up men in the league (I believe Sports Illustrated had him at #1, with Guerrier coming in 2nd). The guy has been nothing but solid for us 90% of the time.

If Thornton starts to consistently blow games, then I'll worry about it, but for the time being, he has earned my trust and is probably our best pitcher in the pen.

But if he is the top set-up man out of the bullpen, or if he is the closer, he would have to pitch a lot. That is in the job description, unless you have a starting staff that pitches complete games, which people insist is too much to ask.

My point was not to slam Thornton. I like Thornton. My point was that Thornton should make people as nervous as Jenks does. I like Jenks. But every time you go to the bullpen, you aren't quite sure what you are getting control-wise, command-wise.

People in game threads and even in winning postgame threads go ballistic about how nervous Jenks makes them, perhaps how Thornton should be the closer (presumably so they would be less nervous, their perception being more important than whether the team wins). The truth is that if you trade Jenks, you weaken the bullpen. Don't pitch Thornton if he has pitched the previous day, and you weaken the bullpen.

People end up blaming Guillen for misusing Jenks or Thornton, whether they lose the game or whether they preserve the win.

And then I read that people are concerned with Jenks giving up ropes in saves but aren't concerned that Thornton makes a mistake to Jeter in losing a game.

DirtySox
05-01-2010, 10:22 AM
Fire Thornton!

veeter
05-01-2010, 10:27 AM
Since Matt Thornton has been on the Sox he's been excellent overall. Like ALL relievers he blows some. His fastball is straight as an arrow. That's what costs him sometimes.

Jerko
05-01-2010, 10:37 AM
I think these guys are becoming too "specialized". If they don't pitch in the EXACT situation they want to, they don't get the job done. I would like to see Ozzie try using Santos and Thornton as a "7th inning guy" and an "8th inning guy" and stop the LRLRLRLR **** for a while and see how that works.

It's Dankerific
05-01-2010, 11:05 AM
Look at Thorton's stats, look at Jenks.

Even after giving up the hit to jeter, I'd take Thorton every time.

Of course, Ozzie could continue to pitch Thornton more than is necessary and thus reduce his effectiveness. to which certain people on here will be happy to pile on.

russ99
05-01-2010, 11:27 AM
I think with Thornton, his stuff is so good right now, he tries to get by with power alone.

He only threw 1-2 offspeed pitches last night. His fastball was very good, but after awhile hitters (especially ones as good as Jeter) will figure it out.

He needs to mix them better, even when he's throwing dominant stuff.

As for this notion blaming Ozzie for using him too much, that's what good relievers do, work a lot of appearances. Stop looking for things to blame Ozzie for...

It's Dankerific
05-01-2010, 11:32 AM
As for this notion blaming Ozzie for using him too much, that's what good relievers do, work a lot of appearances. Stop looking for things to blame Ozzie for...

Good managers don't use their best relievers in mop up duty unless absolutely necessary, and it usually isnt.

SI1020
05-01-2010, 12:01 PM
Why do people get so upset when other people have an opinion that runs counter to their own? How dare they! As for the bullpen in general and Thornton in particular the Sox have had a lock down bullpen only once in recent memory. I think everyone knows what year that was. I have long felt that is one of the most underrated aspects of the 05 team. I like Thornton, when he's on he just blows batters doors off. Sometimes that "heat" is too straight and finds too much of the plate. MLB hitters will time it and launch it. Thornton has been more reliable than not and whatever happens the deal that sent him here is a positive on KW's record. So just tighten it up a bit Matt and you'll be OK.

kittle42
05-01-2010, 04:35 PM
Why do people get so upset when other people have an opinion that runs counter to their own? How dare they! As for the bullpen in general and Thornton in particular the Sox have had a lock down bullpen only once in recent memory. I think everyone knows what year that was. I have long felt that is one of the most underrated aspects of the 05 team. I like Thornton, when he's on he just blows batters doors off. Sometimes that "heat" is too straight and finds too much of the plate. MLB hitters will time it and launch it. Thornton has been more reliable than not and whatever happens the deal that sent him here is a positive on KW's record. So just tighten it up a bit Matt and you'll be OK.

I get upset because I despise reactionary opinion.

delben91
05-01-2010, 05:01 PM
I never gave him a free pass. I still haven't forgiven Thornton for giving up that grand slam to the Rays last year in April. We could have swept those guys if it wasn't for him.

That's nothing, I still haven't forgiven Jose Paniagua for that game against the Twins in 2003.

Really, if a player has even one bad day we never forget it and constantly have to rag on him? Really?

jabrch
05-01-2010, 05:49 PM
fire thornton!

lol

jabrch
05-01-2010, 05:51 PM
Why do people get so upset when other people have an opinion that runs counter to their own? How dare they!

That isn't what is happening. Pointing out the complete stupidity of an idea is not "getting upset about an opinion that runs counter to their own". It is merely pointing out stupidity.

Thornton's Woes? Serious? Really? Stupid.

Ranger
05-01-2010, 05:56 PM
Is this thread serious?

voodoochile
05-01-2010, 06:07 PM
Is this thread serious?

Yes and no... It's more about the frustration the OP feels about the way posters are hammering on Jenks, while giving Thornton a pass even when he struggles, so I get the impression it's more about calling out the Bobby haters than a serious dis on Thornton.

TDog
05-01-2010, 06:15 PM
I get upset because I despise reactionary opinion.

I'm not even upset with Thornton's performance this year, although I have been disappointed. The original post was a response to someone complaining that Thornton had lost two games for the Sox this season. And, really, it's been three. Three more wins, three less losses and, as of this afternoon, the White Sox have a winning record.

But my post wasn't negative toward Thornton. Criticisms in my original post were aimed at the reactionary opinion that Jenks makes them nervous whenever he comes into the game, especially when he comes in with the game tied or in a non-save situation. (For the love of all that is good, Ozzie, don't you know any better? Why don't you put in Thornton? If he fails, you can always complain that Thornton has been misused.)

Thornton's numbers may be better, but his failures have led to more losses than Jenks. It's OK to be nervous when Jenks comes in. But you have every reason to be just as nervous when Thornton comes in.

Wednesday, in San Francisco, Tim Lincecum came out in the ninth inning while leading 4-1. There was one out, but Lincecum just three threw high pitches to Shane Victorino. No problem. Brian Wilson of the Giants is one of the best closers in the National League, and he quickly gets the second out bringing up the person Giants fans have been waiting all day to see. Only there's a single instead. Then a walk. Then a three-run double -- tie score. Then an intentional walk before Wilson gets the third out.

The Phillies ended up scoring six runs in the 2.2 innings after Lincecum left the game. The Giants only scored two and lost a one-run game they should have won.

Stuff happens. Even Dennis Eckersley gave up the Kirk Gibson home run.

But I am baffled about Jenks getting people nervous and Thornton, though less reliable, not getting people nervous.

WhiteSox5187
05-01-2010, 06:17 PM
I'm not even upset with Thornton's performance this year, although I have been disappointed. The original post was a response to someone complaining that Thornton had lost two games for the Sox this season. And, really, it's been three. Three more wins, three less losses and, as of this afternoon, the White Sox have a winning record.

But my post wasn't negative toward Thornton. Criticisms in my original post were aimed at the reactionary opinion that Jenks makes them nervous whenever he comes into the game, especially when he comes in with the game tied or in a non-save situation. (For the love of all that is good, Ozzie, don't you know any better? Why don't you put in Thornton? If he fails, you can always complain that Thornton has been misused.)

Thornton's numbers may be better, but his failures have led to more losses than Jenks. It's OK to be nervous when Jenks comes in. But you have every reason to be just as nervous when Thornton comes in.

Wednesday, in San Francisco, Tim Lincecum came out in the ninth inning while leading 4-1. There was one out, but Lincecum just three threw high pitches to Shane Victorino. No problem. Brian Wilson of the Giants is one of the best closers in the National League, and he quickly gets the second out bringing up the person Giants fans have been waiting all day to see. Only there's a single instead. Then a walk. Then a three-run double -- tie score. Then an intentional walk before Wilson gets the third out.

The Phillies ended up scoring six runs in the 2.2 innings after Lincecum left the game. The Giants only scored two and lost a one-run game they should have won.

Stuff happens. Even Dennis Eckersley gave up the Kirk Gibson home run.

But I am baffled about Jenks getting people nervous and Thornton, though less reliable, not getting people nervous.

There's really not such thing as a game over type of reliever, even a guy as lights out as Mariano Rivera has lost some games. It happens.

TheVulture
05-01-2010, 06:30 PM
The original post was a response to someone complaining that Thornton had lost two games for the Sox this season. And, really, it's been three. Three more wins, three less losses and, as of this afternoon, the White Sox have a winning record.



I think it's a just a wee unfair to blame a guy who gives up 1 run and leaves the game at the end the inning with a tie score by saying he lost the game for the Sox. In fact, I'd say it's ridiculous.

TDog
05-01-2010, 06:54 PM
I think it's a just a wee unfair to blame a guy who gives up 1 run and leaves the game at the end the inning with a tie score by saying he lost the game for the Sox. In fact, I'd say it's ridiculous.

It was a game the White Sox lost in extra innings that would have been won but for Thornton's blown save. It is also true that the game could have been won in nine if Rios had brought in Jones from third in the second with one out instead of striking out.

Certainly if Jenks had blown the save in the ninth instead of Thornton blowing the save in the eighth, people would be blaming Jenks for the loss. And perhaps you would be posting to let them know they were being ridiculous. Of course, people were blaming Jenks for a loss a week ago in a game the White Sox won.

Indeed, it may be a ridiculous standard, but fans seem inconsistent in how they apply it.

slavko
05-01-2010, 07:04 PM
I think with Thornton, his stuff is so good right now, he tries to get by with power alone.

He only threw 1-2 offspeed pitches last night. His fastball was very good, but after awhile hitters (especially ones as good as Jeter) will figure it out.

He needs to mix them better, even when he's throwing dominant stuff.

As for this notion blaming Ozzie for using him too much, that's what good relievers do, work a lot of appearances. Stop looking for things to blame Ozzie for...

95 MPH straight fastballs don't blow good hitters away. I wouldn't call them dominant. He needs a mix, as you say. After he hit that batter, he started missing spots and let 2 major league hitters beat him. He needs to get stronger mentally.

Ranger
05-02-2010, 01:50 AM
There's really not such thing as a game over type of reliever, even a guy as lights out as Mariano Rivera has lost some games. It happens.

So has Joe Nathan. Do we seriously expect Thornton to give up zero runs for the entire season? Do we expect even the most dominant of relievers to be infallible? Have we completely lost all perspective?

I'm just floored that anyone could consider him a disappointment this year. The guy's WHIP is 0.86.

I'm sorry, but I find almost nothing about him in which to be disappointed this season.

Nellie_Fox
05-02-2010, 02:03 AM
Have we completely lost all perspective?Unfortunately, yes.

Konerko05
05-02-2010, 03:48 AM
Are people really complaining about Thornton?

Wow, just, wow.

fram40
05-02-2010, 09:57 AM
I'm just floored that anyone could consider him a disappointment this year. The guy's WHIP is 0.86.

I'm sorry, but I find almost nothing about him in which to be disappointed this season.

I wish I had time to research Thornton's appearances for the last four years. And compare them with other setup guys. But not this morning. I think this could be an interesting discussion - one that deserves more than Ranger's curt dismissal and posting of Thornton's WHIP.

Linebrink's WHIP is 1.07 - one extra runner every five innings. Is this a meaningful difference? Using inherited runners scored, Linebrink has inherited 6 runners - none scored. Thornton is 2 / 0.

Thornton has 11 appearances. He has allowed runs in three of them. These three appearances are his two losses and one blown save. He has one hold and two wins. His failure rate is 3/11. Is this good? Can such a stat be more meaningful than WHIP? (Kind of like a quality start.) Consider that two of Thornton's appearances came in blowouts. Let's subtract those two games and give him a failure rate of 33%. For meaningful, stressful situations with the game on the line.

Linebrink had an awful outing yesterday. Terrible. But that's all it is - one bad outing. Counting his first appearance, Linebrink has 7 appearances. He has allowed runs in two of them - one resulted in a blown save and the other resulted in Linebrink's one hold (even though the Sox lost the game, Linebrink had a hold in the game.) So Linebrink has failed in 2 of 7 outings - a failure rate of ~29%. Given that Linebrink is generally used less in close games, should we subtract his appearances in blowouts? Linebrink has a hold in a game the Sox lost and a blown save in a game the Sox won. If this doesn't illustrate the meaningless of some of the current relief pitcher stats, I am not sure what would.

We call all pull stats out of our ass to show whatever we want. I don't think the stats currently used are meaningful enough. We need better stats for relief pitchers. Especially closers and 8th inning guys. Post all the stats you want about how good Thornton supposedly is. If he fails 33% of the time in game situations - he should not be the 8th inning guy.

Note - I am not defending Linebrink nor attacking Thornton. I just want to illustrate that some of the stats cited don't mean ****. I think different stats should be used for relief pitchers

Ranger
05-02-2010, 10:57 AM
I wish I had time to research Thornton's appearances for the last four years. And compare them with other setup guys. But not this morning. I think this could be an interesting discussion - one that deserves more than Ranger's curt dismissal and posting of Thornton's WHIP.

Linebrink's WHIP is 1.07 - one extra runner every five innings. Is this a meaningful difference? Using inherited runners scored, Linebrink has inherited 6 runners - none scored. Thornton is 2 / 0.

Thornton has 11 appearances. He has allowed runs in three of them. These three appearances are his two losses and one blown save. He has one hold and two wins. His failure rate is 3/11. Is this good? Can such a stat be more meaningful than WHIP? (Kind of like a quality start.) Consider that two of Thornton's appearances came in blowouts. Let's subtract those two games and give him a failure rate of 33%. For meaningful, stressful situations with the game on the line.

Linebrink had an awful outing yesterday. Terrible. But that's all it is - one bad outing. Counting his first appearance, Linebrink has 7 appearances. He has allowed runs in two of them - one resulted in a blown save and the other resulted in Linebrink's one hold (even though the Sox lost the game, Linebrink had a hold in the game.) So Linebrink has failed in 2 of 7 outings - a failure rate of ~29%. Given that Linebrink is generally used less in close games, should we subtract his appearances in blowouts? Linebrink has a hold in a game the Sox lost and a blown save in a game the Sox won. If this doesn't illustrate the meaningless of some of the current relief pitcher stats, I am not sure what would.

We call all pull stats out of our ass to show whatever we want. I don't think the stats currently used are meaningful enough. We need better stats for relief pitchers. Especially closers and 8th inning guys. Post all the stats you want about how good Thornton supposedly is. If he fails 33% of the time in game situations - he should not be the 8th inning guy.

Note - I am not defending Linebrink nor attacking Thornton. I just want to illustrate that some of the stats cited don't mean ****. I think different stats should be used for relief pitchers

Linebrink has pitched well this year, too, with the exception of yesterday.

Yes, I'm dismissing the idea that Thornton has been a disappointment this year because it's absolutely ridiculous.

Like I said earlier, the thought that he has been indicates a complete absence of perspective. Relievers give up runs. Even the really good ones.

jabrch
05-02-2010, 03:46 PM
So has Joe Nathan. Do we seriously expect Thornton to give up zero runs for the entire season? Do we expect even the most dominant of relievers to be infallible? Have we completely lost all perspective?

I'm just floored that anyone could consider him a disappointment this year. The guy's WHIP is 0.86.

I'm sorry, but I find almost nothing about him in which to be disappointed this season.

You actually watch the baseball games...

spawn
05-02-2010, 04:02 PM
So has Joe Nathan. Do we seriously expect Thornton to give up zero runs for the entire season? Do we expect even the most dominant of relievers to be infallible? Have we completely lost all perspective?

I'm just floored that anyone could consider him a disappointment this year. The guy's WHIP is 0.86.

:welcome:

Huisj
05-02-2010, 05:47 PM
If he fails 33% of the time in game situations - he should not be the 8th inning guy.



What are you trying to say here? Are you saying that because in the games you picked (close situations this year) he failed 33% of the time, he should be demoted? Or are you guessing that he has probably had this fail rate every year? Or projecting that he will continue this rate? I'm a bit confused. That's a small sample size.

I know you said you weren't defending Linebrink or ripping Thornton, but it appears that you are trying to find a way to rip Thornton.

balke
05-02-2010, 08:00 PM
I can't believe this thread exists.

asindc
05-02-2010, 08:47 PM
I read the title expecting to come to this thread and find out Thornton has some personal issues that have come to light which might affect his performance going forward. I did not expect people to be complaining about his overall performance so far this year.

We really need the Sox to go on a run soon. So many of us are frustrated.

fram40
05-02-2010, 10:22 PM
I can't believe this thread exists.

why? At the very least, he had a bad month. His bottom line - wins/losses, holds/blown saves - was bad this month. He had eleven appearances. He had two wins and one hold. He had one blown save and two losses.

I do not expect perfection. But I do expect a negative thread when Thornton has a bad month - in one respect his worst month since April, 2007 when he had three blown saves.

It doesn't mean I think he sucks. Clearly - he does not. He is a valuable relief pitcher. One of the better setup guys in the league. But he struggles at times like every other major league player. And I believe he struggled this month.

Regardless of what his WHIP might have been.