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Lip Man 1
04-30-2010, 10:46 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2217970,CST-SPT-sox30.article

I don't know what to make of this. It sounds like these guys are so tight they can't have fun. Why is that? and why have we heard this "excuse" for want of a better word, a few times over the past few years with different players?

Is there a common thread to all this? Are the Sox the only ones who go through this?

Lip

WhiteSoxFTW
04-30-2010, 11:21 AM
Lip, do you think that Ozzie continually running his mouth might have something to do with it? I know Ozzie tries to deflect the media from his players to him, but those players are still listening to what Ozzie says.

For example, take what he said about Beckham the other day. He told the media that Beckham "is not the man" and that he has 25 men on his team. I know what he was trying to do, to keep the pressure off of Beckham. But, shouldn't that be a private conversation with Beckham? He has called this kid out twice now, publically. Once before he even joined the team. Unless there is some clubhouse stuff going on that we don't know about...why call him out like that? Regardless of Ozzie's intentions, he still called him out.

I'm just speculating. I don't claim to have any inside information. I don't even know if I believe it myself. I'm just throwing it out there.

voodoochile
04-30-2010, 11:29 AM
Lip, do you think that Ozzie continually running his mouth might have something to do with it? I know Ozzie tries to deflect the media from his players to him, but those players are still listening to what Ozzie says.

For example, take what he said about Beckham the other day. He told the media that Beckham "is not the man" and that he has 25 men on his team. I know what he was trying to do, to keep the pressure off of Beckham. But, shouldn't that be a private conversation with Beckham? He has called this kid out twice now, publically. Once before he even joined the team. Unless there is some clubhouse stuff going on that we don't know about...why call him out like that? Regardless of Ozzie's intentions, he still called him out.

I'm just speculating. I don't claim to have any inside information. I don't even know if I believe it myself. I'm just throwing it out there.

Actually, if I had to blame something being said, it would be Ozzie and KW constantly talking about winning championships as the only goal. It sets a very high bar the minute the season starts and puts pressure on the players to perform.

Now I know that all teams have the same goal (in theory) but how many of them have a GM and Manager talking about it constantly in the press?

I think also there's a certain amount of natural pressure that occurs when a team assembles a starting staff with this much potential. The offense knows that they can win a lot of games if they perform and that leads to more pressure on the hitters.

I admit I'm just speculating though.

I also think this team is starting to turn it around. You are starting to see guys who haven't been hitting get some hits (Beckham, AJ and TCQ in particular). I won't be surprised if this team starts winning more than it loses real soon...

TheOldRoman
04-30-2010, 11:35 AM
Lip, do you think that Ozzie continually running his mouth might have something to do with it? I know Ozzie tries to deflect the media from his players to him, but those players are still listening to what Ozzie says.

For example, take what he said about Beckham the other day. He told the media that Beckham "is not the man" and that he has 25 men on his team. I know what he was trying to do, to keep the pressure off of Beckham. But, shouldn't that be a private conversation with Beckham? He has called this kid out twice now, publically. Once before he even joined the team. Unless there is some clubhouse stuff going on that we don't know about...why call him out like that? Regardless of Ozzie's intentions, he still called him out.

I'm just speculating. I don't claim to have any inside information. I don't even know if I believe it myself. I'm just throwing it out there.No, Ozzie hasn't called Beckham out. Merely talking about him isn't "calling him out". Furthermore, Ozzie's ranting to deflect media attention doesn't start until the team is already struggling. The problem aside from Walker's teachings is the clubhouse atmosphere, the code of what is acceptable. Konerko is the unquestioned clubhouse leader. There has been a completely lack of urgency and a desire to keep things the same. That is why Ghris Getz was castigated after suggesting that the team was benefiting from some young blood in the lineup. The gall!

I think Konerko is the root of the clubhouse problem, no matter how well he does this year. He and Walker have been the only constants over the last 7 years, and the offense has been subpar for about 6.5 of those. Orlando Cabrera might have been a piece of crap, but he was correct in calling the team out in September of 08, he just should have done it months earlier. Cabrera had never been around such a defeatist team. He talked about the morgue-like atmosphere and how players went into games feeling as if they had no chance to win. Swisher was a huge douche, but before he started playing horribly and pouting, he was already made an outcast because his style didn't sit well with Konerko and the clubhouse heirarchy. Something needs to change.

PhillipsBubba
04-30-2010, 11:40 AM
The one constant through the years is Ozzie.

Maybe the team is tired of his act. They seem to look at him as a clown rather that a leader or mentor.

Back in the day, George Steinbrenner fired Billy Martin and replaced him with Bob Lemon. Nobody would ever suggest Lemon was a better manager, but it worked.

Sometimes change is good regardless if it seems fair.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YyFnlho7N4M/RqwRWRuz9_I/AAAAAAAAABs/s1aeapcH7mE/s320/Bob+Lemon.jpg

khan
04-30-2010, 12:15 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2217970,CST-SPT-sox30.article

I don't know what to make of this. It sounds like these guys are so tight they can't have fun. Why is that? and why have we heard this "excuse" for want of a better word, a few times over the past few years with different players?

Is there a common thread to all this? Are the Sox the only ones who go through this?

1. I cringe when millionaires who play a child's game for a living supposedly "can't have fun." I simply don't get it. REAL pressure is the cop on the beat in a ****ty neighborhood. Or the firefighter running INTO a burning building. Or the Marine on patrol in Afghanistan. Or the parent who has kids to feed, but just got laid off. I don't get it when ballplayers talk about "being tight."

2. I've been convinced: The hitting coach is a largely ornamental position, one that gives the manager and the GM a scapegoat when a team fails to meet expectations. Hitting coaches are hired, so that there's someone to fire instead of the manager or GM. If not for the deep-seated "traditions" in baseball, perhaps teams would be better suited to hire full-time sports psychologists, statisticians(sp?) and video analysts that travel with the team instead of hitting coaches.

3. Hitting instructors in the minor leagues and for young players in MLB do have some value. But for the overarching majority of the big league roster, the hitting coach doesn't really do anything of value, positive or negative.

voodoochile
04-30-2010, 12:42 PM
1. I cringe when millionaires who play a child's game for a living supposedly "can't have fun." I simply don't get it. REAL pressure is the cop on the beat in a ****ty neighborhood. Or the firefighter running INTO a burning building. Or the Marine on patrol in Afghanistan. Or the parent who has kids to feed, but just got laid off. I don't get it when ballplayers talk about "being tight."

2. I've been convinced: The hitting coach is a largely ornamental position, one that gives the manager and the GM a scapegoat when a team fails to meet expectations. Hitting coaches are hired, so that there's someone to fire instead of the manager or GM. If not for the deep-seated "traditions" in baseball, perhaps teams would be better suited to hire full-time sports psychologists, statisticians(sp?) and video analysts that travel with the team instead of hitting coaches.

3. Hitting instructors in the minor leagues and for young players in MLB do have some value. But for the overarching majority of the big league roster, the hitting coach doesn't really do anything of value, positive or negative.

Are you actually sitting there and saying that because they don't have as important a job from a societal perspective that they shouldn't/don't feel pressure?

You have any clue how the human psyche works?

Just because you make a lot of money and don't have to rush into burning buildings for a living doesn't mean you can't feel stress and pressure to succeed. The fact that there are upwards of 40K people cheering for you to do so at any given moment has to carry some weight. These guys aren't playing just for themselves, they are playing to please the people who ultimately pay their salaries. Have you been reading this forum in the last month?

Heck, Bobby gave up 2 runs mostly due to a bunch of bad luck yesteday and you said:

2. I'm ****ing sick of seeing Jenks' fat ass pitch like **** every ****ing time it isn't a save situation.

2a. I'm sick of Ozzie Guillen running Jenks' fat ass out there in non-save situations.

Now if you can generate that much stress, anger and angst just following the game, how do you think the guys playing it feel?

TheOldRoman
04-30-2010, 12:57 PM
Are you actually sitting there and saying that because they don't have as important a job from a societal perspective that they shouldn't/don't feel pressure?

You have any clue how the human psyche works?
While what he said is correct, some of the people criticizing the team are the ones who jumped down Vazquez' throat when he said that his family is the most important thing to him and he wouldn't commit hari kari if he did poorly in a game. That didn't sit well with people.

khan
04-30-2010, 01:13 PM
Are you actually sitting there and saying that because they don't have as important a job from a societal perspective that they shouldn't/don't feel pressure?

You have any clue how the human psyche works?
Regardless of how you spin it, baseball is still a game that all of us here have played for free. In fact, each and every one of those players played the game for free at one point.

I had no idea that ballplayers were as mentally weak as you portray them to be. In any case, I still don't get it. Getting shot at and shooting at other human beings, running into a burning building, or raising kids on a tight budget are still more difficult things to do [EDIT] and far more stressful things to do than playing a game.

Hell, athletes and ballplayers talk at length about "going out there, and trying to have fun." They THEMSELVES define their work as being "fun," not stressful. You don't hear that out of someone going into a combat zone. But you do hear that each and every day out of ballplayers' mouths.

Just because you make a lot of money and don't have to rush into burning buildings for a living doesn't mean you can't feel stress and pressure to succeed. The fact that there are upwards of 40K people cheering for you to do so at any given moment has to carry some weight. These guys aren't playing just for themselves, they are playing to please the people who ultimately pay their salaries. Have you been reading this forum in the last month?
It's still just a game. It isn't trying to find Osama Bin Laden. It isn't trying to catch a criminal. It isn't trying to save others' lives at the risk of your own.

Heck, Bobby gave up 2 runs mostly due to a bunch of bad luck yesteday and you said:
Sorry, Smoak ripped what should have been a triple or more off "Bobby." That wasn't "bad luck." That was "Bobby" getting his brains beaten in by a rookie.

Now if you can generate that much stress, anger and angst just following the game, how do you think the guys playing it feel?

Sorry, I can't pity people who play a child's game for insane amounts of money. I prefer to worry about the Marine who might come back broken in mind and in body from his tour overseas. Or the cop who risks life and limb on a daily basis. But that's just me.

guillen4life13
04-30-2010, 01:26 PM
Regardless of how you spin it, baseball is still a game that all of us here have played for free. In fact, each and every one of those players played the game for free at one point.

I had no idea that ballplayers were as mentally weak as you portray them to be. In any case, I still don't get it. Getting shot at and shooting at other human beings, running into a burning building, or raising kids on a tight budget are still more difficult things to do [EDIT] and far more stressful things to do than playing a game.

Hell, athletes and ballplayers talk at length about "going out there, and trying to have fun." They THEMSELVES define their work as being "fun," not stressful. You don't hear that out of someone going into a combat zone. But you do hear that each and every day out of ballplayers' mouths.


It's still just a game. It isn't trying to find Osama Bin Laden. It isn't trying to catch a criminal. It isn't trying to save others' lives at the risk of your own.


Sorry, Smoak ripped what should have been a triple or more off "Bobby." That wasn't "bad luck." That was "Bobby" getting his brains beaten in by a rookie.



Sorry, I can't pity people who play a child's game for insane amounts of money. I prefer to worry about the Marine who might come back broken in mind and in body from his tour overseas. Or the cop who risks life and limb on a daily basis. But that's just me.

Pity has nothing to do with it. You're twisting the argument. The fact is that, if I were a player like Pierre (or Jones this past offseason) reading WSI, I'd probably end the day shaking on the floor in the fetal position. That they are being paid for it only adds to the pressure.

I don't feel bad for them. But I acknowledge that they face a helluva lot of pressure day in day out to perform than I do in every day life.

It's the same as an overly zealous parent pressuring their kids for nothing short of an A+.

voodoochile
04-30-2010, 01:29 PM
Regardless of how you spin it, baseball is still a game that all of us here have played for free. In fact, each and every one of those players played the game for free at one point.

I had no idea that ballplayers were as mentally weak as you portray them to be. In any case, I still don't get it. Getting shot at and shooting at other human beings, running into a burning building, or raising kids on a tight budget are still more difficult things to do [EDIT] and far more stressful things to do than playing a game.

Hell, athletes and ballplayers talk at length about "going out there, and trying to have fun." They THEMSELVES define their work as being "fun," not stressful. You don't hear that out of someone going into a combat zone. But you do hear that each and every day out of ballplayers' mouths.


It's still just a game. It isn't trying to find Osama Bin Laden. It isn't trying to catch a criminal. It isn't trying to save others' lives at the risk of your own.


Sorry, Smoak ripped what should have been a triple or more off "Bobby." That wasn't "bad luck." That was "Bobby" getting his brains beaten in by a rookie.



Sorry, I can't pity people who play a child's game for insane amounts of money. I prefer to worry about the Marine who might come back broken in mind and in body from his tour overseas. Or the cop who risks life and limb on a daily basis. But that's just me.

Nobody said you have to worry about it more than those people you use, but again, what does that have to do with their perspective?

Oh and goody, you saw the (would be) triple. Did you happen to see the three strikeouts sandwiched around it? :rolleyes:

khan
04-30-2010, 01:35 PM
Pity has nothing to do with it. You're twisting the argument.
I disagree. Voodoo posed this question to me:

"Now if you can generate that much stress, anger and angst just following the game, how do you think the guys playing it feel?"

I view this as a clear attempt to invite me to pity the ballplayers, which I don't and never will.

The fact is that, if I were a player like Pierre (or Jones this past offseason) reading WSI, I'd probably end the day shaking on the floor in the fetal position. That they are being paid for it only adds to the pressure.

I don't feel bad for them.
Nor do I. So we're on the same side of the discussion.

But I acknowledge that they face a helluva lot of pressure day in day out to perform than I do in every day life.
I can't comment on that. Perhaps your work is extremely low-stress. But, I do believe that there are many, many, many more people that experience far more pressure than a ballplayer in ther everyday lives.

It's the same as an overly zealous parent pressuring their kids for nothing short of an A+.
Hardly. There are many clients of mine [Asian-Americans in particular] that are WAYYY more zealous about their kids' academic achievements than us fatasses sitting in the stands drinking beer.

khan
04-30-2010, 01:41 PM
Nobody said you have to worry about it more than those people you use, but again, what does that have to do with their perspective?
On the one side of their mouths, the ballplayers are trying to sell us on the supposed "pressure." On the other side of their mouths, they're telling us, "We've got to just go out there and HAVE SOME FUN."

THEY say that, not me. Their work is therefore recreation to them.

If you choose to think about their supposed "pressure," that's up to you. [Note that ballplayers NEVER talk about "pressure."] I prefer to take them at the words that fall out of their mouths on a virtual daily basis:

"We've got to just go out there and HAVE SOME FUN."

Oh and goody, you saw the (would be) triple. Did you happen to see the three strikeouts sandwiched around it? :rolleyes:
Indeed I did. Truly "great" performances by a closer don't include 2 runs [be they "lucky" or not], nor a double ripped off by a rookie.

I've acknowledged that Jenks was adequate, which he was. He "got the job done." But in doing so, he got slapped around a bit. This DEFINES adequacy, not [in your words] a "great" performance.

Nellie_Fox
04-30-2010, 01:42 PM
The fact is that, if I were a player like Pierre (or Jones this past offseason) reading WSI, I'd probably end the day shaking on the floor in the fetal position. That they are being paid for it only adds to the pressure.



Hardly. There are many clients of mine [Asian-Americans in particular] that are WAYYY more zealous about their kids' academic achievements than us fatasses sitting in the stands drinking beer.Talk about a non-sequitur. In what way does your answer address that statement?

WhiteSoxFTW
04-30-2010, 01:43 PM
No, Ozzie hasn't called Beckham out. Merely talking about him isn't "calling him out". Furthermore, Ozzie's ranting to deflect media attention doesn't start until the team is already struggling. The problem aside from Walker's teachings is the clubhouse atmosphere, the code of what is acceptable. Konerko is the unquestioned clubhouse leader. There has been a completely lack of urgency and a desire to keep things the same. That is why Ghris Getz was castigated after suggesting that the team was benefiting from some young blood in the lineup. The gall!

I think Konerko is the root of the clubhouse problem, no matter how well he does this year. He and Walker have been the only constants over the last 7 years, and the offense has been subpar for about 6.5 of those. Orlando Cabrera might have been a piece of crap, but he was correct in calling the team out in September of 08, he just should have done it months earlier. Cabrera had never been around such a defeatist team. He talked about the morgue-like atmosphere and how players went into games feeling as if they had no chance to win. Swisher was a huge douche, but before he started playing horribly and pouting, he was already made an outcast because his style didn't sit well with Konerko and the clubhouse heirarchy. Something needs to change.

That's very interesting. I also remember the thing with Getz last year. I really liked Getz, and I, and many others, probably agreed with what he said.

khan
04-30-2010, 01:45 PM
Talk about a non-sequitur. In what way does your answer address that statement?

Being urged to achieve by your parents as a child is infintely more pressure than being yelled at by people you don't know as a grown man, for one. For another, trying to parallel the difficulty in pleasing one's parents to playing a game for a living is, in my view, silly.

[EDIT] I've never heard a young Asian-American kid [or other group that values education] talk about having to study for a calculus exam as "I've got to just go out there and HAVE SOME FUN." But you do hear grown men describe playing a game in just this fashion.

guillen4life13
04-30-2010, 02:15 PM
Being urged to achieve by your parents as a child is infintely more pressure than being yelled at by people you don't know as a grown man, for one. For another, trying to parallel the difficulty in pleasing one's parents to playing a game for a living is, in my view, silly.

[EDIT] I've never heard a young Asian-American kid [or other group that values education] talk about having to study for a calculus exam as "I've got to just go out there and HAVE SOME FUN." But you do hear grown men describe playing a game in just this fashion.

Speaking as an Indian American at age 22 (in college) who experiences a good amount of stress and pressure from my parents to get good grades, I still stand by my statement.

I hear my father refer to his job as fun, but that's because he truly enjoy what he does. Pressure/stress and fun are not mutually exclusive. The fact remains that they're still doing what they do for a living. That they're doing it in the very public eye with lots of money riding on them only adds to it.

It's not just "us fatasses" (I am actually very skinny). It's team management, reporters, SportsCenter, etc. I'm pretty sure Bobby Jenks doesn't like the idea of being on SportsCenter because he blew a save.

You probably wouldn't like your failure at work to be broadcast on national television, blasted and ridiculed by (literally) thousands to millions of people.

Just because a situation is not life/livelihood threatening does not mean that it is free of pressure.

Lip Man 1
04-30-2010, 02:29 PM
Roman:

Interesting comments about "the captain" Konerko. Never thought about it that way before. I wonder what Ranger thinks about this? And of course my thoughts on the lack of real leaders in the Sox clubhouse have been on record for a long time.

Lip

khan
04-30-2010, 02:34 PM
Speaking as an Indian American at age 22 (in college) who experiences a good amount of stress and pressure from my parents to get good grades, I still stand by my statement.
And as an Asian-American, I too understand the pressures of academic acomplishment on the part of parents. But it is much more difficult to explain a less than A grade to an angry parent as a child than it is to worry about the media or people you don't know as a grown man.

I hear my father refer to his job as fun, but that's because he truly enjoy what he does. Pressure/stress and fun are not mutually exclusive. The fact remains that they're still doing what they do for a living. That they're doing it in the very public eye with lots of money riding on them only adds to it.
I disagree. People verbally communicate their thoughts. In other words, what they think about, they talk about. And when it is referred to over and over and over again as "trying to have fun," it means that they consider it to be recreation.

I know I never told my parents "I'll just try to go out there and have fun" when I came home with less than As as a kid. Because inorganic Chem or Calc weren't really recreation to me.

I think the media, in their stupid attempt to make ballplayers' lives parallel that of the general public, make the "pressure" angle to be much bigger than it really is to the ballplayer. At the same time, were any of us ballplayers, we would have had YEARS AND YEARS of exposure to the public, and would have already been desensitized to living/working in the public eye.

If fact, that is ONE barrier to entry into MLB: Can you as a young player handle fame and fortune and success? If so, then you'll be employable in MLB. If you're mentally weak, then you'll just be [yet another] failed prospect WELL BEFORE you get to the bigs.

It's not just "us fatasses" (I am actually very skinny). It's team management, reporters, SportsCenter, etc. I'm pretty sure Bobby Jenks doesn't like the idea of being on SportsCenter because he blew a save.
Alas, I'm not as skinny as I once was. But none of these things you mention here have as much REAL CONTROL over your life as your parents do when you're a kid. Not by a LONG shot, at least in competent households.

In fact, for some kids, hearing their parents tell them, "I'm disappointed in you" is far worse [to them] than getting a spanking from mom or dad. The influence of a parent over a kid is WAY MORE than any fan booing a millionaire playing a game. A child does not have the benefit of experience to respond to pressure that a grown man does, PARTICULARLY when you're dependent on the critic [READ: the parents] for food, shelter, and clothing.

You probably wouldn't like your failure at work to be broadcast on national television, blasted and ridiculed by (literally) thousands to millions of people.

Just because a situation is not life/livelihood threatening does not mean that it is free of pressure.
I know that I could find MILLIONS of way$ to get over the "supposed" pressure. Moreover, if I had the ability to do so, and CHOSE a career in the public eye, I would also acknowledge that this is part of the deal. If one chooses to be a ballplayer, you choose to be in the public eye. This isn't unexpected by ANY of the players. We really shouldn't make this to be a bigger deal than it is.

asindc
04-30-2010, 02:34 PM
That's very interesting. I also remember the thing with Getz last year. I really liked Getz, and I, and many others, probably agreed with what he said.

I definitely agreed with what Getz said, as I have felt that many of the vets on the team had gotten complacent since 2006, including my favorite player, Jermaine Dye. That is one of the reasons why I'm not all that concerned about the job Walker is doing. I put the success or failure mostly on the players in any context, especially when I think they don't have the same drive they used to.

For instance, I predicted that Konerko would have a very good/great year, based on the fact that he publicly stated at the end of last season that he would report to ST in better shape this year, this being a contract year. Dye, and to a lesser extent, Thome also seemed a bit humdrum in their approach. I think management saw this as well, which might be one of the reasons they pushed to get young players like Getz, Fields, and Beckham into the lineup.

HangWiffum
04-30-2010, 02:37 PM
The only thing i can think of is the atmosphere produced by ozzie and his coaching staff. Ozzie doesn't take 1 bit of pressure of any of his players. he is more of a distraction than anything else. I have also realized that ozzie is exactly the same as dusty baker when it comes to actually managing his lineup and pitching staff. the only difference was the way they talked to the media.

Jerko
04-30-2010, 02:52 PM
I think Ozzie manages "scared" and it's trickling down.

WhiteSoxFTW
04-30-2010, 02:55 PM
Roman:

Interesting comments about "the captain" Konerko. Never thought about it that way before. I wonder what Ranger thinks about this? And of course my thoughts on the lack of real leaders in the Sox clubhouse have been on record for a long time.

Lip
Neither have I Lip, which I why I found Roman's comment to be interesting.

Roman: Did Cabrera ever give any indication who was exemplifying the "defeatist" mentality? It probably was a blanket statement, but I wonder if some of the guys didn't believe, but didn't want to speak up since they might not have had as much pull in the clubhouse. That comment by Cabrera was news to me.

voodoochile
04-30-2010, 03:07 PM
I disagree. Voodoo posed this question to me:

"Now if you can generate that much stress, anger and angst just following the game, how do you think the guys playing it feel?"

I view this as a clear attempt to invite me to pity the ballplayers, which I don't and never will.

Empathy is not the same as sympathy... You can say understand a viewpoint and even accept that it's valid without having an emotional reaction to it.

I don't pity the ballplayers either, but I do understand how they might feel stress. I didn't run into burning buildings while working in restaurants and my income was never anything more than enough to live on, but I felt stress in those jobs too...

voodoochile
04-30-2010, 03:09 PM
I've acknowledged that Jenks was adequate, which he was. He "got the job done." But in doing so, he got slapped around a bit. This DEFINES adequacy, not [in your words] a "great" performance.

I long ago acknowledged the word "great" was incorrect and modified my stance to "solid". Go back and read the thread...

dickallen15
04-30-2010, 03:11 PM
No, Ozzie hasn't called Beckham out. Merely talking about him isn't "calling him out". Furthermore, Ozzie's ranting to deflect media attention doesn't start until the team is already struggling. The problem aside from Walker's teachings is the clubhouse atmosphere, the code of what is acceptable. Konerko is the unquestioned clubhouse leader. There has been a completely lack of urgency and a desire to keep things the same. That is why Ghris Getz was castigated after suggesting that the team was benefiting from some young blood in the lineup. The gall!

I think Konerko is the root of the clubhouse problem, no matter how well he does this year. He and Walker have been the only constants over the last 7 years, and the offense has been subpar for about 6.5 of those. Orlando Cabrera might have been a piece of crap, but he was correct in calling the team out in September of 08, he just should have done it months earlier. Cabrera had never been around such a defeatist team. He talked about the morgue-like atmosphere and how players went into games feeling as if they had no chance to win. Swisher was a huge douche, but before he started playing horribly and pouting, he was already made an outcast because his style didn't sit well with Konerko and the clubhouse heirarchy. Something needs to change.

So the clubhouse was a morgue and the attitude defeatist according to Cabrera in 2008.The most defeatist Cabrera, a guy who played on a Montreal team that lost at least 94 games 4 years in a row, said was the most defeatist he's ever been around? Didn't the White Sox win their division that year? Yeah, its all on Konerko. Please, nothing could be further from the truth.

khan
04-30-2010, 03:16 PM
Empathy is not the same as sympathy... You can say understand a viewpoint and even accept that it's valid without having an emotional reaction to it.
Fair enough. We may have to agree to disagree.

I still don't understand it. I don't understand how someone can be so mentally weak in a competitive business. [EDIT] After all, not ONLY are the ballplayers grown men playing a child's game, but they are ALSO millionaires that ALSO go into a business that they know IN ADVANCE that they will be in the public eye, but ALSO, they have years to adapt to being in the public eye.

This isn't taking a child out of a orphanage, and plopping him down into a MLB team, without the benefit of adulthood, insane amounts of money, the training of having been in the public eye for years, and many staff members of a MLB club to help deal with the "supposed" pressure. These are grown men, who have MUCH MORE HELP in dealing with "supposed" pressure playing a game than some 19 year old kid on patrol in Afghanistan.

Again, comparing a non-public person's dealing with fame is NOT AT ALL similar to a public figure's dealings with the public.

I don't pity the ballplayers either, but I do understand how they might feel stress. I didn't run into burning buildings while working in restaurants and my income was never anything more than enough to live on, but I felt stress in those jobs too...
I think you just made my point. Or at a minimum, re-stated it another way.

JB98
04-30-2010, 05:11 PM
The main reason I've been so hard on Walker the last few years is because I believe the Sox mental approach to hitting is broken.

I'm glad you've identified the problem, Walk. Now fix it. If you do, I'll stop calling for you to be fired.

voodoochile
04-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Fair enough. We may have to agree to disagree.

I still don't understand it. I don't understand how someone can be so mentally weak in a competitive business. [EDIT] After all, not ONLY are the ballplayers grown men playing a child's game, but they are ALSO millionaires that ALSO go into a business that they know IN ADVANCE that they will be in the public eye, but ALSO, they have years to adapt to being in the public eye.

This isn't taking a child out of a orphanage, and plopping him down into a MLB team, without the benefit of adulthood, insane amounts of money, the training of having been in the public eye for years, and many staff members of a MLB club to help deal with the "supposed" pressure. These are grown men, who have MUCH MORE HELP in dealing with "supposed" pressure playing a game than some 19 year old kid on patrol in Afghanistan.

Again, comparing a non-public person's dealing with fame is NOT AT ALL similar to a public figure's dealings with the public.

You are completely missing the point. I'll try one more time and then I'm out...

The stress isn't from dealing with the public per se, but having people who depend on you for happiness (witness WSI this past month) can certainly add stress to the job when you are failing at it. If a player is struggling and thus feels stress because they are struggling (because they are paid millions to perform and some people *cough cough* don't allow them any leeway because of said millions) that in turn can lead to pressing and that in turn can lead to even more failure.

Why do guys talk about "just having fun"? Because when they aren't treating it that way, the pressure in their own heads starts to build. Hitting has a HUGE mental side to it. It's not as simple as it looks while sitting in the stands or watching on TV. If your head ain't right when facing a Major League caliber pitcher, you will fail and that in turn adds more stress. Then the fans start ripping on you *cough cough* and that adds even more stress.

That's what it comes down to. Overcoming the stress and getting back to being relaxed and confident then they break out of their slump and hopefully the fans start cheering again.

Say what you want, but when a fireman fails to save a person in a fire, no one boos. No one screams they are a bum. No one calls for them to get fired. You think it's easy having 40,000 booing you or telling you you suck? You think the paycheck and the fact it's "just a kids game" makes it easy to overcome that negative energy? You think it's easy to become a major league player that no heart, effort, sacrifice is called for and thus when you fail it's easy to get over it? Some guys can do that. The ones who are in it for the paychecks. The ones who will never be champions. The ones who can screw up team chemistry in a heartbeat. The good ones actually give a crap though and when they fail, it eats them up.

And frankly the fact you don't understand that, says a heck of a lot more about you and your ivory tower comments, IMO than it does them.

Dan H
04-30-2010, 06:10 PM
Personally I think that having fun will make any person more productive no matter what job they have. I have done better in work situations where I can blow off steam or joke around. Going to work in a place where the mood is constantly bleak is not good for anyone. The pressure will always be there anyway. Not being able to laugh things off or enjoy oneself is real downer on morale. One time I saw Konerko and Buehrle laugh off a goofy play and I thought that was great.

Of course I have no idea what is happening in that clubhouse. And certain teams can thrive on tension. But I do know confidence can lead to a better peformance on the field. The ability still has to be there, but looseness helps. Right now I don't see Ozzie helping. If this team has another losing season, his performance needs to be seriously looked at.

Finally, maybe this team is not very good. We have a little less than 140 games to find out. We may find out a lot earlier if this team can't relax.

WisSoxFan
04-30-2010, 09:17 PM
A wise fellow once told me, when I was feeling stressed at my job which I didn't think should be stressful, that everyone's job is stressful. Doesn't matter if you're the janitor or the CEO; if it's your floor to sweep or your business to run. All jobs are stressful because it's your job and it's your responsibility to get it done and in virtually every job your performance has an impact on others.

Huskie28
04-30-2010, 10:45 PM
all of your perspectives suck...what is the highest level of baseball you have all played? what do you know about playing sports at a high level? It doesn't matter what you make...performing and not performing are going to effect the guy making the league minimum to a-rod the same way....figure it out and watch the games without trying to psychoanalyze everything...you are fans...and that is for a reason....

captain54
05-01-2010, 12:41 AM
what do you know about playing sports at a high level?

I know that if the players I watch who are supposed to be playing at a high level suck, I am less likely to spend my money going to see their suckage


watch the games without trying to psychoanalyze everything...you are fans..

Ok agreed....let me make this real simple for you

the hitting coach gets paid to help players perform better offensively....when they are not performing up to their capability, the hitting coach is not doing his job.

doublem23
05-01-2010, 01:06 AM
Ok agreed....let me make this real simple for you

the hitting coach gets paid to help players perform better offensively....when they are not performing up to their capability, the hitting coach is not doing his job.

It's an amazingly simple concept that I can't figure out why people don't understand. It's one thing if you just disagree with it, I know there's a strong contingent of people here who think the hitting coach doesn't do anything, and that's fine, but I just don't get why people can't wrap their heads around this point.

Tragg
05-01-2010, 01:24 AM
the hitting coach gets paid to help players perform better offensively....when they are not performing up to their capability, the hitting coach is not doing his job.
And the manager gets paid to help the players win games; and the GM gets paid to assemble the best team he can. And on and on with varous personnel. And the player gets paid to hit the baseball "where the other guy ain't"
Whose fault?
Is it each one?

wassagstdu
05-01-2010, 07:39 AM
the hitting coach gets paid to help players perform better offensively....when they are not performing up to their capability, the hitting coach is not doing his job.

There is another possibility: Maybe we have a team of Ron Karkovices who are actually hitting beyond their capability because of great coaching.

soltrain21
05-01-2010, 09:28 AM
There is another possibility: Maybe we have a team of Ron Karkovices who are actually hitting beyond their capability because of great coaching.

That's really not a possibility at all.

Bob Roarman
05-01-2010, 09:29 AM
It's an amazingly simple concept that I can't figure out why people don't understand. It's one thing if you just disagree with it, I know there's a strong contingent of people here who think the hitting coach doesn't do anything, and that's fine, but I just don't get why people can't wrap their heads around this point.

If you were to shuffle the hitting coaches around the league, you really think you'd see any huge differences? At the major league level, they are more an ornamental position than anything else. There are always exceptions and always some players that might get a little better/worse but for the most part they're just another voice. Someone in the clubhouse, usually the body guard for the manager as he nears the end of his rope.

Now the hitting coaches at the MINOR league level are something else entirely.

captain54
05-01-2010, 09:54 AM
Whose fault?


For the majority of Walker's tenure as hitting coach, the White Sox have trouble scoring runs if not for the home run....the White Sox cannot hit pitchers they havent seen before....the White Sox cannot get a runner in from third with less than two outs...the White Sox cannot hit on Sundays...The White Sox cannot hit on Sundays when they where black jerseys...the White Sox cannot hit because they have the wrong attitude and put pressure on themselves...the White Sox cannot hit because fans throw hot dog wrappers on the field and it distracts them.

you tell me who's fault it is...

captain54
05-01-2010, 09:57 AM
There is another possibility: Maybe we have a team of Ron Karkovices who are actually hitting beyond their capability because of great coaching.

If not for the homer run, the White Sox have trouble scoring runs...this has been a staple as long as Walker's been the hitting coach....

that would be about 6 yrs of Ron Karkovices....highly unlikely

captain54
05-01-2010, 10:03 AM
If you were to shuffle the hitting coaches around the league, you really think you'd see any huge differences?

Maybe not, maybe yes...pure speculation

but now since the Sox are at rock bottom in the MLB offensively, going on the 2nd year in a row, wouldn't it make sense to make SOME kind of adjustment, somewhere?

Domeshot17
05-01-2010, 10:20 AM
Maybe we should just get some talented hitters who can drive in some runs. Maybe we shouldn't have tried to avoid power and home runs like the plague. Maybe we shouldn't have ignored the fact we do not have 1 legit source of left handed power in the lineup instead of hoping Kotsay could be something he is not.

The root of the Sox problems, in my opinion, is we take a large group of guys and try and make them something they are not. Swisher was not a CF, or a Lead Off Man, but we damn sure wanted him to be. Then we get mad when he hits .220. Gordan Beckham has played 3 positions in 2 years. Mark Kotsay went from being one of the MOST VALUABLE pinch hitters and bench hitters in the league to one of the worst 5 hitters/DH in the league. Quentin, who has never had 1 full healthy season, went from being a nice complimentary hitter who can help carry the load to having to be THE GUY. and lets face it, despite what we say, we are built to fail if he fails.

Maybe playing guys at different positions all the time ISN'T good. Guys like consistency. It helps set comfort.

Thome_Fan
05-01-2010, 10:38 AM
Maybe we should just get some talented hitters who can drive in some runs. Maybe we shouldn't have tried to avoid power and home runs like the plague. Maybe we shouldn't have ignored the fact we do not have 1 legit source of left handed power in the lineup instead of hoping Kotsay could be something he is not.

The root of the Sox problems, in my opinion, is we take a large group of guys and try and make them something they are not. Swisher was not a CF, or a Lead Off Man, but we damn sure wanted him to be. Then we get mad when he hits .220. Gordan Beckham has played 3 positions in 2 years. Mark Kotsay went from being one of the MOST VALUABLE pinch hitters and bench hitters in the league to one of the worst 5 hitters/DH in the league. Quentin, who has never had 1 full healthy season, went from being a nice complimentary hitter who can help carry the load to having to be THE GUY. and lets face it, despite what we say, we are built to fail if he fails.

Maybe playing guys at different positions all the time ISN'T good. Guys like consistency. It helps set comfort.

This. If we had a roster full of Ben Zobrist, fine... But we don't.

TaylorStSox
05-01-2010, 11:51 AM
None of us can really relate to the amount of public scrutiny that a ball player endures. Obviously some deal with it better than others. Some even thrive off of it. However, It's pretty "holier than thou" to suggest that a player's "weak" if it affects his performance.


Back on topic... The only criticism I have of this organization, offensively, is that they never seen to have a consistent approach. ie. Attacking some guys early in the count. Making some pitchers work. Taking some guys the other way. Everyone seems to come to the plate with a different agenda.

JB98
05-01-2010, 12:05 PM
This "pressure" that everyone is supposedly feeling seems to be internal to me.

Most of the press picked this club to finish third. A handful picked them first or second, but most picked them third. Expectations from the media weren't that high.

I've been to four games so far this season, and with the exception of Opening Day, this club is playing to a half-empty stadium. There aren't any players that are getting booed at home. Judging by those factors, the expectations from the fan base overall weren't that high.

Wherever this "pressure" is coming from, it's not the fans or the media.

Lip Man 1
05-01-2010, 12:26 PM
Dome brings up some very, very solid points.

Going back to 2006 when Makoviak (sorry about the spelling) was forced into playing center field because of a lack of options, this has been a fairly common thread.

Guys are being moved around, guys are being played out of position. It's like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

The Sox have been taking a lot of chances on guys...hoping they'll rebound, hoping they'll stay healthy, hoping they'll reach their potential.

Most times it hasn't worked.

There's no substitute for talent. Talent at the top of their game in the hear and now...now six years ago, or four years ago or two years ago.

Ultimately it's up to the G.M. to assemble that talent so in this regard I have to look at Kenny first before Ozzie. Ozzie hasn't had the same type of talent since 2007 that he had from 2004 through 2006 in my opinion. (Now how he would use that talent is an open question but you have to have it in the first place...)

Lip

TaylorStSox
05-01-2010, 12:26 PM
This "pressure" that everyone is supposedly feeling seems to be internal to me.

Most of the press picked this club to finish third. A handful picked them first or second, but most picked them third. Expectations from the media weren't that high.

I've been to four games so far this season, and with the exception of Opening Day, this club is playing to a half-empty stadium. There aren't any players that are getting booed at home. Judging by those factors, the expectations from the fan base overall weren't that high.

Wherever this "pressure" is coming from, it's not the fans or the media.

Maybe they're trying to prove everyone wrong. In any event, instead of playing with a chip on their shoulder, they're playing timid. They really are playing "not to lose."

Individually, they're probably feeling pressure for different reasons. TCQ and Rios are trying to bounce back from down years. Pierre, AJ and Paulie are aging veterans with uncertain futures. Beckham's a young star in his sophomore year. Ramirez really is trying to do too much, as evidenced by his lack of patience.

Regardless, they suck right now and I hope they figure it out.

gosox41
05-01-2010, 10:08 PM
Actually, if I had to blame something being said, it would be Ozzie and KW constantly talking about winning championships as the only goal. It sets a very high bar the minute the season starts and puts pressure on the players to perform.

Now I know that all teams have the same goal (in theory) but how many of them have a GM and Manager talking about it constantly in the press?

I think also there's a certain amount of natural pressure that occurs when a team assembles a starting staff with this much potential. The offense knows that they can win a lot of games if they perform and that leads to more pressure on the hitters.

I admit I'm just speculating though.

I also think this team is starting to turn it around. You are starting to see guys who haven't been hitting get some hits (Beckham, AJ and TCQ in particular). I won't be surprised if this team starts winning more than it loses real soon...


The pressure here is less then the pressure with a team like the Yankees and Red Sox. If these guys are mentally weak and this is the reason they're not hitting, then they should go.

I do see signs of life and the hitting is coming around...finally.

Bottom line is a team full of veteran hitters that have good histories shouldn't all slump for such a long, extended period of time.


Bob

gosox41
05-01-2010, 10:16 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2217970,CST-SPT-sox30.article

I don't know what to make of this. It sounds like these guys are so tight they can't have fun. Why is that? and why have we heard this "excuse" for want of a better word, a few times over the past few years with different players?

Is there a common thread to all this? Are the Sox the only ones who go through this?

Lip

This team needs a psychologist. Every year since 2001, this team starts the season on a horrid slump where 5-6 of the starting 9 guys are hitting way below their career numbers. Maybe I have a selective memory, but this seems to be the trend. While I don't follow other teams as closely as I do the Sox, it seems like a team like the Twins shows a lot more consistency in their overall hitters. Sure the individuals have slumps, but they don't seem to slump all at once.

The season is 15% over and it's just in the last couple of games that the offense is showign signs of life. A team of veteran hitters should not be slumping for 80-100 at bats when they put on a Sox uni.


Bob

doublem23
05-01-2010, 10:24 PM
this team needs a psychologist. every year since 2001, this team starts the season on a horrid slump where 5-6 of the starting 9 guys are hitting way below their career numbers. Maybe i have a selective memory, but this seems to be the trend. While i don't follow other teams as closely as i do the sox, it seems like a team like the twins shows a lot more consistency in their overall hitters. Sure the individuals have slumps, but they don't seem to slump all at once.

The season is 15% over and it's just in the last couple of games that the offense is showign signs of life. A team of veteran hitters should not be slumping for 80-100 at bats when they put on a sox uni.


Bob

2005. 2006.

Honestly, what does the 2001 team even have to do with the 2010 team, anyway? Aside from the same jerseys, there's only 1 hold over on the roster and the coaching staff has been completely recycled.

gosox41
05-01-2010, 10:41 PM
2005. 2006.

Honestly, what does the 2001 team even have to do with the 2010 team, anyway? Aside from the same jerseys, there's only 1 hold over on the roster and the coaching staff has been completely recycled.

Nothing, but every year since 2001, this team goes through long slumps that crush this team.

Even in April/May of 2005, the Sox offense was far from hitting on all cylinders.

You're right about 2006, the Sox came out swinging then.


Bob

Lip Man 1
05-01-2010, 10:50 PM
Until mid July that is...

Lip

Dub25
05-01-2010, 11:37 PM
No, Ozzie hasn't called Beckham out. Merely talking about him isn't "calling him out". Furthermore, Ozzie's ranting to deflect media attention doesn't start until the team is already struggling. The problem aside from Walker's teachings is the clubhouse atmosphere, the code of what is acceptable. Konerko is the unquestioned clubhouse leader. There has been a completely lack of urgency and a desire to keep things the same. That is why Ghris Getz was castigated after suggesting that the team was benefiting from some young blood in the lineup. The gall!

I think Konerko is the root of the clubhouse problem, no matter how well he does this year. He and Walker have been the only constants over the last 7 years, and the offense has been subpar for about 6.5 of those. Orlando Cabrera might have been a piece of crap, but he was correct in calling the team out in September of 08, he just should have done it months earlier. Cabrera had never been around such a defeatist team. He talked about the morgue-like atmosphere and how players went into games feeling as if they had no chance to win. Swisher was a huge douche, but before he started playing horribly and pouting, he was already made an outcast because his style didn't sit well with Konerko and the clubhouse heirarchy. Something needs to change.

I think you got a point about Paulie. I love the guy and I love his start so far although I'm waiting for the painful 6 week slump at any point to start.

You mention Cabrera never being around such a defeatist team? No kidding, I hate when Paulie always says you gotta tip your cap to the pitcher they have never seen before shut them down. No Paulie, how about light him up like everybody else does.

Dub25
05-01-2010, 11:38 PM
1. I cringe when millionaires who play a child's game for a living supposedly "can't have fun." I simply don't get it. REAL pressure is the cop on the beat in a ****ty neighborhood. Or the firefighter running INTO a burning building. Or the Marine on patrol in Afghanistan. Or the parent who has kids to feed, but just got laid off. I don't get it when ballplayers talk about "being tight."

2. I've been convinced: The hitting coach is a largely ornamental position, one that gives the manager and the GM a scapegoat when a team fails to meet expectations. Hitting coaches are hired, so that there's someone to fire instead of the manager or GM. If not for the deep-seated "traditions" in baseball, perhaps teams would be better suited to hire full-time sports psychologists, statisticians(sp?) and video analysts that travel with the team instead of hitting coaches.

3. Hitting instructors in the minor leagues and for young players in MLB do have some value. But for the overarching majority of the big league roster, the hitting coach doesn't really do anything of value, positive or negative.

Then why have a hitting coach?

Dub25
05-01-2010, 11:41 PM
The main reason I've been so hard on Walker the last few years is because I believe the Sox mental approach to hitting is broken.

I'm glad you've identified the problem, Walk. Now fix it. If you do, I'll stop calling for you to be fired.

Walk doesn't need to fix it. It is up to the players because it is their fault. Ask Ranger, he will tell you so.

Dub25
05-01-2010, 11:51 PM
For the majority of Walker's tenure as hitting coach, the White Sox have trouble scoring runs if not for the home run....the White Sox cannot hit pitchers they havent seen before....the White Sox cannot get a runner in from third with less than two outs...the White Sox cannot hit on Sundays...The White Sox cannot hit on Sundays when they where black jerseys...the White Sox cannot hit because they have the wrong attitude and put pressure on themselves...the White Sox cannot hit because fans throw hot dog wrappers on the field and it distracts them.

you tell me who's fault it is...

The one that really gets me is they can't hit pitchers they have never seen before even though the guy is getting lit up by the rest of the A.L. If the scouting reports are good like Ranger says then obviously Walker doesn't translate it well to the players because like I said in another post that I started, there are a lot of new faces on offense that have not been here a full year and they have fallen into the same trap that past players have.

Juan Pierre who has the 3rd most hits in the N.L. since 2000 stinks. I know he has the 3rd most because it was a trivia question during I believe a Giants game that I was watching through the MLB package.

The rest of the players that have not been here a full year are:

Mark Teahan
Andruw Jones
Gordon Beckham
Mark Kotsay
Omar Visquel
Alex Rios

All of the above with the exception of Jones have had some big time struggles at some point, including now, under the "coaching" of Walker.

JB98
05-02-2010, 12:04 AM
Walk doesn't need to fix it. It is up to the players because it is their fault. Ask Ranger, he will tell you so.

Ranger's position is well entrenched here. Of course, mine is as well. Seven of the nine spots in the lineup have turned over since 2007. Only Konerko and Pierzynski remain. Unfortunately, the same problems with the offense remain as well, despite players being changed. I don't know how any fan can not wonder if it's more than just the players...

Dub25
05-02-2010, 01:29 AM
Ranger's position is well entrenched here. Of course, mine is as well. Seven of the nine spots in the lineup have turned over since 2007. Only Konerko and Pierzynski remain. Unfortunately, the same problems with the offense remain as well, despite players being changed. I don't know how any fan can not wonder if it's more than just the players...

I should've used teal as I am with you.

dickallen15
05-02-2010, 06:36 AM
I think you got a point about Paulie. I love the guy and I love his start so far although I'm waiting for the painful 6 week slump at any point to start.

You mention Cabrera never being around such a defeatist team? No kidding, I hate when Paulie always says you gotta tip your cap to the pitcher they have never seen before shut them down. No Paulie, how about light him up like everybody else does.

You probably have missed Paulie's numbers not only this year but his entire White Sox career. In the history of the franchise, only Frank Thomas has more homers. He also was the ALCS MVP in 2005 and oh, might have hit the biggest homer in team history in October of 2005.

Its ironic that he's defeatist, he's had one of the best Aprils in team history, and you mention you are just waiting for a painful 6 week slump. Its also ironic that Cabrera would say something like this, considering he hit .230 with a .289 OBP in high leverage situations in 2008, and hit a solid .125 in the playoffs. Of course Orlando Cabrera is one of those guys that has to blame his poor performance on something else. It may be one reason he's been on 5 teams the last 4 seasons.

If you want to see a defeatist, I suggest you look into a mirror.

Mod Edit: You had a really good post until you made it personal at the end. That's the definition of a personal attack which we don't allow. Though as personal attacks go it's a mild one, so I'm not giving you a rip merely a warning. Once again, please stick with talking about the ideas in the post not the poster who made it.

Tragg
05-02-2010, 08:53 AM
you tell me who's fault it is...
In my opinion, it's Guillen's fault, because of his repeated and continued bad personnel decisions. In addition, when he can't get along with someone, which is frequent, that someone has to be vanquished from the team and basically given away.
Maybe I should blame Williiams for giving into Guillen's demands.
As for Walker, fundamentals are taught in the minor leagues. Beckham is really the only young hitter he's had an opportunity to develop, so it's hard to tell. Otherwise, can we really blame Walker for not teaching DeWayne Wise how to be a leadoff hitter or Juan Pierre for swinging at balls in the dirt?

masloan
05-02-2010, 09:12 AM
Ranger's position is well entrenched here. Of course, mine is as well. Seven of the nine spots in the lineup have turned over since 2007. Only Konerko and Pierzynski remain. Unfortunately, the same problems with the offense remain as well, despite players being changed. I don't know how any fan can not wonder if it's more than just the players...

If you replace a average hitter with another average hitter...it is hard to think that the offense will improve. Maybe the problem is Kenny. But all of a sudden over the last week or so the offense has started swinging better. Is that because Walker's scouting reports are all of a sudden better? Is that because Walker's techniques have improved?

It seems to me that the problem with the Sox offense is less to do with Walker's ability to coach, and more to do with the types of players Kenny has brought in.

I still have not seen any hitters that have left the White Sox all of a sudden turn in to Willie Mays. Please share some examples. Orlando Cabrera has played on many MLB teams...and his numbers are pretty consistant throughout. Aaron Rowand as well.

But here is 1 player that has not been mentioned.....JERMAINE DYE. Find me 1 player that Walker "hurt" as much as he "helped" Jermaine Dye. Do you guys want another one...JOE CREDE. Walker helped him become a pretty decent hitter. Nobody mentiones him. Paul Konerko has also been a great hitting 1B under Walker.

There is this thing called talent. Obviously coaching is important, but there comes a point where you have to realize that if a team is not hitting well..maybe they just do not have good hitters.

I actually think the Sox should have a pretty decent hitting lineup. I am a big Rios fan. I think Quentin and Beckham should snap out of it...hopefully. Konerko and AJ will do what they do. Obviously Pierre has been a huge disapointment. I actually approved of the Pierre acquisition. But to those who say Pierre has always been a poor player, then his struggles cannot be pinned on Greg Walker.

khan
05-03-2010, 10:55 AM
The stress isn't from dealing with the public per se, but having people who depend on you for happiness (witness WSI this past month) can certainly add stress to the job when you are failing at it.
Who does this? Who "depends" on ballplayers for "happiness?" I know there are many other things in life that I enjoy. But because this is a White Sox board, we tend to focus on the issue of our team's success/failure alone. Don't overstate a ballplayer's supposed "importance" to society, or to people of at-least average self awareness.

If a player is struggling and thus feels stress because they are struggling (because they are paid millions to perform and some people *cough cough* don't allow them any leeway because of said millions) that in turn can lead to pressing and that in turn can lead to even more failure.
Boo-****ing hoo. Do better at your "job," and worry less about the outside bull****. [For example, Gordon Lillibridge, maybe you should spend LESS time running your mouth on the radio, and more time fixing your hitting problems.]

Why do guys talk about "just having fun"?
Human beings talk about what they think about. This has been shown to be the case over and over again. Priests talk about salvation. Physicians talk about medicine. Businesspeople talk about business.

Therefore, this sporting cliche is reflective of how they view their supposed "work." It is recreation to ballplayers.

That's what it comes down to. Overcoming the stress and getting back to being relaxed and confident then they break out of their slump and hopefully the fans start cheering again.
Or, not giving a **** about what the fans say/think, and just doing your ****ing "job." How about that?

Say what you want, but when a fireman fails to save a person in a fire, no one boos. No one screams they are a bum. No one calls for them to get fired.
And no ballplayers suffer from depression or PTSD from having a kid die in their arms, either. No ballplayer retires from MLB broken in mind from the supposed "stress." There are plenty of firefighters, cops, and servicemen that DO.

You think it's easy having 40,000 booing you or telling you you suck? You think the paycheck and the fact it's "just a kids game" makes it easy to overcome that negative energy?
Yes. Particularly since these ballplayers have had years to become accustomed to perfoming on a public stage in the minor leagues. They've had YEARS of being praised and booed in public. They have sports psychologists, coaches, and team mates to support them. They've practiced this whole thing for YEARS before they reach the majors.

The human mind can become acclimated to many "stressors," given enough time. When you throw MILLIONS of dollars into the mix, it makes it all the easier.

You think it's easy to become a major league player that no heart, effort, sacrifice is called for and thus when you fail it's easy to get over it?
I acknowledge that it requires much effort to become MLB ballplayers. Their training does allow, however, for them to recover from failure. This is one of the things that filters the suspects from the prospects in the minor leagues.

Some guys can do that. The ones who are in it for the paychecks.
So now you're purporting that ballplayers aren't in it for the paychecks? When was the last time a ballplayer asked for LESS money, even when he sucked ass the year before? The very existence of Scott Boras and of the ridiculous arbitration process contradict your supposition.

They're ALL in it for the money! Each and every one of them. The nice guys like Jim Thome, and the raging *******s like Barry Bonds are alike in their quest for gold FIRST, and victory second.

The ones who will never be champions. The ones who can screw up team chemistry in a heartbeat. The good ones actually give a crap though and when they fail, it eats them up.
I think this is media bull****. The '70s As hated each other, yet they still kicked ass. There are plenty of selfish players that have won championships.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2010, 11:14 AM
Jayson Nix had an interesting comment to Mark Gonzales... how this applies to Greg Walker, I guess depends on your point of view in this discussion.

Nix was talking about Scott Podsednik and the good start he's having this year. "he figured it out for himself what works well for him."

Feel free to carry on with the discussion.

Lip

dickallen15
05-03-2010, 11:35 AM
Jayson Nix had an interesting comment to Mark Gonzales... how this applies to Greg Walker, I guess depends on your point of view in this discussion.

Nix was talking about Scott Podsednik and the good start he's having this year. "he figured it out for himself what works well for him."

Feel free to carry on with the discussion.

Lip

I believe he was speaking of his workouts. Nix works out with him. Pods kept breaking down, but believes he's found a perfect routine to avoid that from happening.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2010, 11:36 AM
Dick:

If that's the case, than fair enough.

Lip

voodoochile
05-03-2010, 11:47 AM
Who does this? Who "depends" on ballplayers for "happiness?" I know there are many other things in life that I enjoy. But because this is a White Sox board, we tend to focus on the issue of our team's success/failure alone. Don't overstate a ballplayer's supposed "importance" to society, or to people of at-least average self awareness.


Boo-****ing hoo. Do better at your "job," and worry less about the outside bull****. [For example, Gordon Lillibridge, maybe you should spend LESS time running your mouth on the radio, and more time fixing your hitting problems.]


Human beings talk about what they think about. This has been shown to be the case over and over again. Priests talk about salvation. Physicians talk about medicine. Businesspeople talk about business.

Therefore, this sporting cliche is reflective of how they view their supposed "work." It is recreation to ballplayers.


Or, not giving a **** about what the fans say/think, and just doing your ****ing "job." How about that?


And no ballplayers suffer from depression or PTSD from having a kid die in their arms, either. No ballplayer retires from MLB broken in mind from the supposed "stress." There are plenty of firefighters, cops, and servicement that DO.


Yes. Particularly since these ballplayers have had years to become accustomed to perfoming on a public stage in the minor leagues. They've had YEARS of being praised and booed in public. They have sports psychologists, coaches, and team mates to support them. They've practiced this whole thing for YEARS before they reach the majors.

The human mind can become acclimated to many "stressors," given enough time. When you throw MILLIONS of dollars into the mix, it makes it all the easier.


I acknowledge that it requires much effort to become MLB ballplayers. Their training does allow, however, for them to recover from failure. This is one of the things that filters the suspects from the prospects in the minor leagues.


So now you're purporting that ballplayers aren't in it for the paychecks? When was the last time a ballplayer asked for LESS money, even when he sucked ass the year before? The very existence of Scott Boras and of the ridiculous arbitration process contradict your supposition.

They're ALL in it for the money! Each and every one of them. The nice guys like Jim Thome, and the raging *******s like Barry Bonds are alike in their quest for gold FIRST, and victory second.


I think this is media bull****. The '70s As hated each other, yet they still kicked ass. There are plenty of selfish players that have won championships.

Just an FYI, I find these kinds of replies unreadable. I've said my peace on the topic. I don't see any other poster agreeing with you. I see lots of people agreeing with me.

Your reality is your reality, but the simple fact is, hitting a baseball successfully is more than simply "deciding to do your job". There are a ton of factors that go into it and some of them are psychological.

And if you don't think Sox fans rely on the Sox for happiness, you haven't bee reading WSI these past few weeks. You're correct, it shouldn't and in most cases isn't the only thing that they rely on, but it does factor in to the equation. And yeah, the players carry that around with them.

I do agree that they wouldn't be doing this if it didn't pay well, but I disagree that it's the only motivation for them. I don't think you can reach this level of talent if that's all you care about. I think history is loaded with examples of guys who played sports for the money. Those guys tend to fail the minute they get their big payday. The good ones still care about championships. You don't win championships with guys who don't care about winning.

You seem to think the money makes for less stress, but how many interviews have been given about highly paid guys feeling the pressure to perform at least in part due to the money they are getting paid? Money makes for less stress in everyday life, but it can add stress to the professional life because it's not human nature to get paid lots of money, fail repeatedly, get booed, get ripped in the press, get called a bum and laugh it off.

Is money all you give a crap about in life? Your perspective seems to imply that...

khan
05-03-2010, 12:35 PM
Just an FYI, I find these kinds of replies unreadable. I've said my peace on the topic. I don't see any other poster agreeing with you. I see lots of people agreeing with me.

Exactly how do you propose someone respond to a post? You make a statement, and I respond to it.

Doing so makes for more interesting discussion, IMO. It allows for one poster to agree with parts of the post, disagree with others, or to more fully engage parts of interest.

Also, it's more interesting if other posters do NOT agree with each other. It allows for posters to get a wider perspective. [For example] I used to want Walker fired, but now I recognize that a hitting coach @ the MLB level does exactly jack and ****. I came to this realization, thanks in part to what has been posted here.

I do agree that they wouldn't be doing this if it didn't pay well, but I disagree that it's the only motivation for them. I don't think you can reach this level of talent if that's all you care about. I think history is loaded with examples of guys who played sports for the money. Those guys tend to fail the minute they get their big payday. The good ones still care about championships. You don't win championships with guys who don't care about winning.
Go back and read my post. I didn't state that money is "the only" motivation for them. I stated that it was their FIRST motivation for them. And again, A-Roid's obese salary didn't prevent him from winning a world series this past year. MJ's hefty salary didn't keep him from winning 6 rings, either.

Also, players reach a level of "talent" because they hit the genetic lottery. Players reach a level of "accomplishment" due to honing that talent through a ton of practice, and a toughening of the psyche. Mentally weak people do NOT succeed in the public eye, irrespective of their "talent."


You seem to think the money makes for less stress, but how many interviews have been given about highly paid guys feeling the pressure to perform at least in part due to the money they are getting paid? Money makes for less stress in everyday life, but it can add stress to the professional life because it's not human nature to get paid lots of money, fail repeatedly, get booed, get ripped in the press, get called a bum and laugh it off.
And I'm sure these millionaires have more stress than the starving masses in Port Au Prince(sp.), right?

Money makes EVERYTHING easier. Anyone who believes otherwise has either never tried living without it, or has never seen folks that are less fortunate than we.


Is money all you give a crap about in life? Your perspective seems to imply that...
No. I simply have a more complete view of the world than others. Overlooking the financial motivation for people to do ANYTHING in life is simple-minded, IMO.

voodoochile
05-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Go back and read my post. I didn't state that money is "the only" motivation for them. I stated that it was their FIRST motivation for them. And again, A-Roid's obese salary didn't prevent him from winning a world series this past year. MJ's hefty salary didn't keep him from winning 6 rings, either.

...

And I'm sure these millionaires have more stress than the starving masses in Port Au Prince(sp.), right?

Money makes EVERYTHING easier. Anyone who believes otherwise has either never tried living without it, or has never seen folks that are less fortunate than we.

I snipped out the parts I don't want to respond to...

You name some of the best players to ever play their respective sports and act as if that's the norm. I'll mention Cade McNown, Ryan Leaf, Vernon Wells as the opposite side of the coin. You actually make my point. Guys who care about winning and are good at their jobs get paid big amounts of money. The fact these guys are champions and immensely rich speaks volumes about the effort they put in day in and day out. Yes, money drives these guys, but comes a point, more money doesn't matter. Then it's all about effort to win. Interesting you bring up MJ - by all accounts, the man worked harder than anyone else on the team, day in and day out. He wanted to win championships. Because he did and because he had the work ethic and drive to do so, he got rich really really rich. Yinka Dare on the other hand... not so much...

Just because the starving people in Port Au Prince have MORE stress in their lives, doesn't mean the superstars playing MLB have none.

And I stand by what I said regarding personal and professional lives. Having more money doesn't necessarily make your professional life easier. It can in fact have the exact opposite effect both because it drives you to continue to perform so you can continue to get paid, but because with higher pay comes higher expectations from everyone who gives a crap be they fans, bosses, shareholders, etc. Once you get paid, you better damned well produce or you will reap the negative impacts. That's true in ALL professions. Baseball players are not immune to those kinds of pressures. To think otherwise is silly.

Oh and what you call a "deeper understanding" I call obtuse...

jabrch
05-03-2010, 01:18 PM
Just because the starving people in Port Au Prince have MORE stress in their lives, doesn't mean the superstars playing MLB have none.


There is a big difference between measuring your stressors and measuring the impact to you of that stress. The former is an external measure. That latter is a measure of how you handle the former. The starving people...And frankly, they have absolutely nothing to do with pro athletes. We are talking two totally different stressors. I always dislike bringing them into any discussion. It's like when I wouldn't eat my peas, and my Mom told me there were starving people in Africa - fine - send em my peas. But don't bring their plight into my digestive likes and dislikes. It's not relevant. Sure - TCQ is not hitting. And he may be hitting due to stress. But the people in Tobunda being tortured...the people in Roganda who are starving...not his problem and not related to his issues. I'd like them to be happy and healthy. I'd like him to hit. But there is no correlation between one and the other. Both live their lives with whatever stressors and stress they deal with.

khan
05-03-2010, 01:24 PM
I snipped out the parts I don't want to respond to...
That's fine, I prefer it that way.

You name some of the best players to ever play their respective sports and act as if that's the norm. I'll mention Cade McNown, Ryan Leaf, Vernon Wells as the opposite side of the coin.

1. Cade McNown had a stupid 3/4 throwing motion. Anyone with a 3-digit IQ could see that he was not talented enough to succeed at the NFL level. [Seriously, take out a football, and try throwing with a 3/4 motion, and you'll see why he failed.]

The person that drafted him was not only football dumb, but failed to understand human kinesiology and biomechanics. You can see McNown's flawed mechanics by watching tape. The fact that they stupidly drafted him STILL blows my mind. And this is even BEFORE you do a background check about that worthless piece of ****. [Thinking about the parking passes thing when he was @ UCLA.]

2. Ryan Leaf was mentally weak, and had poor relationships with his team mates in college and in the NFL.

3. Vernon Wells was always an average player, signed to a stupid contract by a stupid GM.

If effect, you chose 3 massive mistakes by stupid GMs. None of them are any more greedy than any other player. But ALL are flawed as players, and as support for your viewpoint.

The fact these guys are champions and immensely rich speaks volumes about the effort they put in day in and day out. Yes, money drives these guys, but comes a point, more money doesn't matter.
Thank you for agreeing with me. I posit that money comes FIRST, and everything else comes second for athletes.

Just because the starving people in Port Au Prince have MORE stress in their lives, doesn't mean the superstars playing MLB have none.
And just because ballplayers are famous, doesn't mean that they DO have stress. Again, note that they constantly talk about "going out there, and having fun." They do so on a DAILY BASIS. When was the LAST TIME you heard an athlete talk about their lives being stressful because they were millionaires?

And I stand by what I said regarding personal and professional lives. Having more money doesn't necessarily make your professional life easier.
Fair enough. I simply disagree with you. I promise you that EVERYONE in society, from minimum wage earners, up to overpaid pieces of **** in MLB, are better off mentally when they are better off financially.

Taken another way, there isn't a DAMN one of them in MLB that would play for less, or for free.

It can in fact have the exact opposite effect both because it drives you to continue to perform so you can continue to get paid, but because with higher pay comes higher expectations from everyone who gives a crap be they fans, bosses, shareholders, etc.

The underlined statement on your part defines money as a motivator.

Once you get paid, you better damned well produce or you will reap the negative impacts. That's true in ALL professions. Baseball players are not immune to those kinds of pressures. To think otherwise is silly.

Again, this paragraph DEFINES money as a motivator.

Oh and what you call a "deeper understanding" I call obtuse...
Fair enough. I don't know what you do for a living, but whatever it is, try living without money. Give away all your money and all of your possessions, and then let us know how it works out for you.

khan
05-03-2010, 01:31 PM
There is a big difference between measuring your stressors and measuring the impact to you of that stress. The former is an external measure. That latter is a measure of how you handle the former. The starving people...And frankly, they have absolutely nothing to do with pro athletes. We are talking two totally different stressors. I always dislike bringing them into any discussion.

Oh, I don't disagree with this.

But, it was Voodoo who came at me with the "How do you think the ballplayers feel" idea. I took that as an attempt to get people to feel sorry for them. He stated that it was about "empathy" rather than "sympathy," but it sure seemed like the latter rather than the former.


I merely think that people that sympathize or try to empathize with athletes should take a step back and reconsider their view. Comparing the plight of the Haitian people to millionaire athletes tends to put things into perspective.

Or, for that matter, comparing the job-related stressors of millionaire athletes to the Marine on patrol, the cop on the beat, or the firefighter at the scene of a conflagration puts "sympathy/empathy" for athletes into perspective.

SCCWS
05-03-2010, 01:33 PM
. You are starting to see guys who haven't been hitting get some hits (Beckham, AJ and TCQ in particular). I won't be surprised if this team starts winning more than it loses real soon...

Beckham looks even worse. He is hitting .200 in last 7 and has struck out 7 of last 20 abs. On a good team he would be sent back to minors for a few weeks to get his swing straightened out. But WS do not have a 2nd base alternative at AAA. Lillibridge has made more errors than the entire Charlotte team combined. I think Beckham will be moved down in order for Rios and hope he finds his stroke.

voodoochile
05-03-2010, 01:56 PM
Oh, I don't disagree with this.

But, it was Voodoo who came at me with the "How do you think the ballplayers feel" idea. I took that as an attempt to get people to feel sorry for them. He stated that it was about "empathy" rather than "sympathy," but it sure seemed like the latter rather than the former.


I merely think that people that sympathize or try to empathize with athletes should take a step back and reconsider their view. Comparing the plight of the Haitian people to millionaire athletes tends to put things into perspective.

Or, for that matter, comparing the job-related stressors of millionaire athletes to the Marine on patrol, the cop on the beat, or the firefighter at the scene of a conflagration puts "sympathy/empathy" for athletes into perspective.

I see, so you chose not to take me at my word and that led to this circular pit of hell I've been sucked into. Thanks...:rolleyes:

I'm going to agree to disagree and am out...

jabrch
05-03-2010, 04:56 PM
Beckham looks even worse. He is hitting .200 in last 7 and has struck out 7 of last 20 abs. On a good team he would be sent back to minors for a few weeks to get his swing straightened out.

Actually, on a good team, they'd have a good hitting instructor who'd fix him. Since Walker sucks, we are ****ed.

PennStater98r
05-03-2010, 06:11 PM
Who does this? Who "depends" on ballplayers for "happiness?" I know there are many other things in life that I enjoy. But because this is a White Sox board, we tend to focus on the issue of our team's success/failure alone. Don't overstate a ballplayer's supposed "importance" to society, or to people of at-least average self awareness.


Boo-****ing hoo. Do better at your "job," and worry less about the outside bull****. [For example, Gordon Lillibridge, maybe you should spend LESS time running your mouth on the radio, and more time fixing your hitting problems.

I feel like there's always one in every thread that has an opinion. You've earned it for this one Ricardo. You know what I mean.

The anonymity of the internet allows some of us to talk tough and act like ... well act poorly. Congratulations! You've won! You're a winner...

Here's the thing - I don't care if you're pulling kids out of a fire, staring at a bunchy of kids that don't want to learn what you have to teach, walking a beat, hitting a ball with a stick, sitting in a cubicle or..... hrm - advising people financially. You still have pressure on you to do a good job, and at any time if you perform under your expectations, you will start to feel the psychological pressures of underperforming - and that can spiral into worse performance.

It doesn't matter how important your job is in the eyes of society (way to go on making it a political discussion btw - you don't get away with that everyday on this site) to feel that pressure and buckle under it. Yeah - these guys get paid millions of dollars to wear a glove, throw balls and hit them with sticks. So what! You get paid to tell people how to spend their money and you probably get paid much better than cops and firemen and teachers. Does that make your job any less important than theirs? I know a few of those people that were sweating at the end of 2008. If you're not one of them, congratulations - I guess you won then too...

I don't even know what my point is - I just will post yet another response to someone's really rude - nonsense and ask the question - would you talk like you write in these posts to a Sox fan at a game, in a bar or on the street. If so, I'm guessing you get away with that with people that aren't your friends - because friends must be a rarity in your life. I don't know anyone that I would continue to speak to if s/he talked to me like that - other than maybe my kid, but he's five - so he has an excuse.

Oh - I remember the last point that I wanted to make - if you're dissatisfied with the product then find another hobby. Go watch firemen putting out fires or cops walking a beat or teachers in a classroom - or maybe (not saying you do this) don't gripe about taxes next time you feel like it because - god knows we pay for our players by buying jerseys, tickets to games, caps and various other things - with little griping.

Those important jobs - the cops, the teachers, the firemen - they receive ****ty pay because we want to go to our baseball games (or various other hobbies). Instead of posting a bunch of self-righteous babble about the importance of this and that - go out and volunteer to work in a school for a day or something - your time would be better spent being passionate about that issue and doing something about it - rather than wasting your time bitching on a White Sox forum...

Voodoo - way to go on talking through with sense and appropriate passion.

Oh yeah - and every time I hear someone griping about the pay of baseball players - I think this: You're just jealous because you don't have the skills to do it yourself. Don't kid anyone - you'd take the pay to play the game. We all take the pay to play what ever game we're offered to play for pay in life - don't get all self righteous because you receive less pay for a job that you you perceive to be more important than theirs - that's what the police/fireman/teacher discussion is really about - isn't it?

ilsox7
05-03-2010, 06:26 PM
I feel like there's always one in every thread that has an opinion. You've earned it for this one Ricardo. You know what I mean.

The anonymity of the internet allows some of us to talk tough and act like ... well act poorly. Congratulations! You've won! You're a winner...

Here's the thing - I don't care if you're pulling kids out of a fire, staring at a bunchy of kids that don't want to learn what you have to teach, walking a beat, hitting a ball with a stick, sitting in a cubicle or..... hrm - advising people financially. You still have pressure on you to do a good job, and at any time if you perform under your expectations, you will start to feel the psychological pressures of underperforming - and that can spiral into worse performance.

It doesn't matter how important your job is in the eyes of society (way to go on making it a political discussion btw - you don't get away with that everyday on this site) to feel that pressure and buckle under it. Yeah - these guys get paid millions of dollars to wear a glove, throw balls and hit them with sticks. So what! You get paid to tell people how to spend their money and you probably get paid much better than cops and firemen and teachers. Does that make your job any less important than theirs? I know a few of those people that were sweating at the end of 2008. If you're not one of them, congratulations - I guess you won then too...

I don't even know what my point is - I just will post yet another response to someone's really rude - nonsense and ask the question - would you talk like you write in these posts to a Sox fan at a game, in a bar or on the street. If so, I'm guessing you get away with that with people that aren't your friends - because friends must be a rarity in your life. I don't know anyone that I would continue to speak to if s/he talked to me like that - other than maybe my kid, but he's five - so he has an excuse.

Oh - I remember the last point that I wanted to make - if you're dissatisfied with the product then find another hobby. Go watch firemen putting out fires or cops walking a beat or teachers in a classroom - or maybe (not saying you do this) don't gripe about taxes next time you feel like it because - god knows we pay for our players by buying jerseys, tickets to games, caps and various other things - with little griping.

Those important jobs - the cops, the teachers, the firemen - they receive ****ty pay because we want to go to our baseball games (or various other hobbies). Instead of posting a bunch of self-righteous babble about the importance of this and that - go out and volunteer to work in a school for a day or something - your time would be better spent being passionate about that issue and doing something about it - rather than wasting your time bitching on a White Sox forum...

Voodoo - way to go on talking through with sense and appropriate passion.

Oh yeah - and every time I hear someone griping about the pay of baseball players - I think this: You're just jealous because you don't have the skills to do it yourself. Don't kid anyone - you'd take the pay to play the game. We all take the pay to play what ever game we're offered to play for pay in life - don't get all self righteous because you receive less pay for a job that you you perceive to be more important than theirs - that's what the police/fireman/teacher discussion is really about - isn't it?

There is so much good in this post!

JB98
05-03-2010, 06:26 PM
If you replace a average hitter with another average hitter...it is hard to think that the offense will improve. Maybe the problem is Kenny. But all of a sudden over the last week or so the offense has started swinging better. Is that because Walker's scouting reports are all of a sudden better? Is that because Walker's techniques have improved?

It seems to me that the problem with the Sox offense is less to do with Walker's ability to coach, and more to do with the types of players Kenny has brought in.

I still have not seen any hitters that have left the White Sox all of a sudden turn in to Willie Mays. Please share some examples. Orlando Cabrera has played on many MLB teams...and his numbers are pretty consistant throughout. Aaron Rowand as well.

But here is 1 player that has not been mentioned.....JERMAINE DYE. Find me 1 player that Walker "hurt" as much as he "helped" Jermaine Dye. Do you guys want another one...JOE CREDE. Walker helped him become a pretty decent hitter. Nobody mentiones him. Paul Konerko has also been a great hitting 1B under Walker.

There is this thing called talent. Obviously coaching is important, but there comes a point where you have to realize that if a team is not hitting well..maybe they just do not have good hitters.

I actually think the Sox should have a pretty decent hitting lineup. I am a big Rios fan. I think Quentin and Beckham should snap out of it...hopefully. Konerko and AJ will do what they do. Obviously Pierre has been a huge disapointment. I actually approved of the Pierre acquisition. But to those who say Pierre has always been a poor player, then his struggles cannot be pinned on Greg Walker.

That's fair enough. The problem I have with a lot of Walker's defenders is they also believe KW is doing a great job.

Well, our results stink. The Sox are 284-306 since the All-Star break of 2006. That's not a small sample size. That's 590 games of less than mediocre baseball. Is it KW? Is it Ozzie? Is it the coaches? Or is it the players? If it's the players, then KW was the one who acquired these guys and he bears a good chunk of the responsibility.

If your argument is that KW has repeatedly handed Ozzie, Walk and the rest of the staff a pile of **** over the last four years, I'm willing to entertain that possibility. Right now, I can't accept the "all is well and everyone is doing a great job" argument.

fram40
05-03-2010, 06:40 PM
Here's an interesting stat I found while looking for others ...

The Sox have three of the top ten players in AB per SO

#1 Pierre
#2 AJ
#10 PK

also - the team is leading the league with the fewest strikeouts.

Slappy
05-03-2010, 06:48 PM
Are we leading in infield grounders by any chance?

voodoochile
05-03-2010, 06:55 PM
That's fair enough. The problem I have with a lot of Walker's defenders is they also believe KW is doing a great job.

Well, our results stink. The Sox are 284-306 since the All-Star break of 2006. That's not a small sample size. That's 590 games of less than mediocre baseball. Is it KW? Is it Ozzie? Is it the coaches? Or is it the players? If it's the players, then KW was the one who acquired these guys and he bears a good chunk of the responsibility.

If your argument is that KW has repeatedly handed Ozzie, Walk and the rest of the staff a pile of **** over the last four years, I'm willing to entertain that possibility. Right now, I can't accept the "all is well and everyone is doing a great job" argument.

From my perspective, you cannot lump it all together like that. Each season had it's collective reason why it stunk or didn't. It's not the same team each year nor is it the same reasons.

2006 - second half - pitcher's arms fell off especially Contreras and Buehrle.

2007 - horrible series of injuries to start the season leading to Thome, Dye and konerko all having substandard years. Bullpen issues also played a major role here. I could start naming the crappy guys who got PT here, but you already know them.

2008 - Bullpen got fixed, no major injuries until the end and the Sox still made the playoffs despite losing their MVP candidate and a starting pitcher down the stretch (would have loved to play that Rays series again with a healthy TCQ).

2009 - bad roster brought on by a tight payroll and a bad economy forced the Sox to start the year with too many question marks at too many positions. Like 2007 I could start naming the guys who played in the first half who had no business on a MLB roster, but again, you already know them.

2010 - so far it's nothing but a slump, IMO. I think this team is going to figure it out and be fine, but I know I'm in the minority in this thread.

Too many crucial positions changed over year to year and too many factors influenced these various seasons. The fact is the Sox also made the playoffs once in that stretch which is a solid ratio - once every 4 years would be fine by me compared to the way things have been historically, but I also think KW wants to be better than that and thus he continues to work to improve and rectify his mistakes either during the season or off-season depending on payroll issues and other factors.

It's not a simple one size fits all answer (KW, OG, players, coaches, Reinsy, etc.) It's a combination of factors.

Let's take a hypothetical...

If the Sox suddenly find their feet, start hitting and pitching like some of us thought they could and go on a tear, finish with 87+ wins and make the playoffs will that suddenly change your opinion of these players/management from bad to good? If so, doesn't that drill a massive hole in the bottom of the argument? What if the Sox go on a tear, win 93 games but fail to make the playoffs? Will that plug said hole and magically reinforce your argument?

Too many factors go into winning and losing in baseball. It's not a simple solution and it doesn't have simple arguments. The fact that in any given season 90% of the teams are looking at a crapshoot in their bullpen should be enough for you and the others to see that's true.

voodoochile
05-03-2010, 06:56 PM
Here's an interesting stat I found while looking for others ...

The Sox have three of the top ten players in AB per SO

#1 Pierre
#2 AJ
#10 PK

also - the team is leading the league with the fewest strikeouts.

Yeah, our BABIP is ridiculously bad...

JB98
05-03-2010, 07:24 PM
From my perspective, you cannot lump it all together like that. Each season had it's collective reason why it stunk or didn't. It's not the same team each year nor is it the same reasons.

2006 - second half - pitcher's arms fell off especially Contreras and Buehrle.

2007 - horrible series of injuries to start the season leading to Thome, Dye and konerko all having substandard years. Bullpen issues also played a major role here. I could start naming the crappy guys who got PT here, but you already know them.

2008 - Bullpen got fixed, no major injuries until the end and the Sox still made the playoffs despite losing their MVP candidate and a starting pitcher down the stretch (would have loved to play that Rays series again with a healthy TCQ).

2009 - bad roster brought on by a tight payroll and a bad economy forced the Sox to start the year with too many question marks at too many positions. Like 2007 I could start naming the guys who played in the first half who had no business on a MLB roster, but again, you already know them.

2010 - so far it's nothing but a slump, IMO. I think this team is going to figure it out and be fine, but I know I'm in the minority in this thread.

Too many crucial positions changed over year to year and too many factors influenced these various seasons. The fact is the Sox also made the playoffs once in that stretch which is a solid ratio - once every 4 years would be fine by me compared to the way things have been historically, but I also think KW wants to be better than that and thus he continues to work to improve and rectify his mistakes either during the season or off-season depending on payroll issues and other factors.

It's not a simple one size fits all answer (KW, OG, players, coaches, Reinsy, etc.) It's a combination of factors.

Let's take a hypothetical...

If the Sox suddenly find their feet, start hitting and pitching like some of us thought they could and go on a tear, finish with 87+ wins and make the playoffs will that suddenly change your opinion of these players/management from bad to good? If so, doesn't that drill a massive hole in the bottom of the argument? What if the Sox go on a tear, win 93 games but fail to make the playoffs? Will that plug said hole and magically reinforce your argument?

Too many factors go into winning and losing in baseball. It's not a simple solution and it doesn't have simple arguments. The fact that in any given season 90% of the teams are looking at a crapshoot in their bullpen should be enough for you and the others to see that's true.

If the Sox go on a tear, win 93 ballgames and still miss the playoffs, I would still congratulate everyone on a job well done. IMO, 93 wins is a real solid year and would be a very pleasant surprise with this roster.

Heck, if they win 87, I will give Ozzie and Walk and the gang a reprieve, because I think that would be a pretty good managing/coaching job with this roster.

My confidence in this regime is not real high, because we've had to endure losing seasons in two of the last three years. The start of this season has felt like an extension of last year. I'm looking for a reason to believe this year will be different, and I haven't seen one yet.

The bottom line is this: The Sox organization has lost my confidence. They need to earn it back. They can do so by winning games. I'm not somebody who hates on Ozzie nonstop. I think you know that, Voo. I've been labeled an "Ozzie apologist" at times on this board, especially since I was in the "BA hater camp." But I'm also not going to just agree with everything these guys do either, just because they know more about baseball than I do. I sure as hell hope they know more baseball than I do. But they have to get results. When they don't, I'm going to question them. I spend a lot of money on this ballclub every year, and when things are going poorly, I want them to identify the problems and fix them.

More than anything, I want them to stop talking about how good a club they think they have and show me they have a good team.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-03-2010, 08:37 PM
So, I was listening to The Score on the way home and at the end of the B&B show they spend some time with Laurence Holmes. Laurence was in the clubhouse and talked to Gordon Beckham today. He asked Beckham if because of the hitting funk he is in, if he has went to Walker. Gordon said no.

Basically Laurence broke it down like this. The door to Walker's office is open and the tape of their swings is available but most of these guys WANT to work it out THEMSELVES.

Bernstein mentioned that Thome once told him that he only reviewed tape if he felt something different that was working. Thome went by how his swing felt. If things felt wrong he didn't go to the hitting coach, but if something was really working, he went in to watch tape to see what exactly was working for him.

:shrug: I am really beginning to think we are making too much of this Walker thing.

SCCWS
05-04-2010, 08:51 AM
Actually, on a good team, they'd have a good hitting instructor who'd fix him. Since Walker sucks, we are ****ed.

When Beckham arrived last year, he started out terribly. Obviously Walker got him straightened out as he ended up with a good season. So if Walker fixed him last year, then maybe the problem is w Beckham and not Walker.

cws05champ
05-04-2010, 09:08 AM
When Beckham arrived last year, he started out terribly. Obviously Walker got him straightened out as he ended up with a good season. So if Walker fixed him last year, then maybe the problem is w Beckham and not Walker.
Beckham started out 0-13 but Walker has said he does not work with guys right when they start out, rather letting them try to figure it out. If they continue to struggle then he'll step in....but he did not do that with Beckham because Beckham turned it around himself.

I know this is Cherry picking but look at Juan Uribe. His Average with the Sox 2004- 2008: .283, .252, .235, .234, .247
With San Fran: .289 in 2009 and hitting .292 so far this year. I'm not saying Uribe not hitting was Walker's fault but it is awfully suspect that the #'s are much better as soon as he leaves the Sox.

Gavin
05-04-2010, 09:09 AM
The current White Sox BABIP for 2010 is 0.230. The league average is 0.297 and the next closest on the ladder is Toronto at 0.264. I don't know if a team has EVER been so unlucky as to hit so poorly despite putting the ball in play. In fact, no team is even CLOSE to hitting as "luckily" as bad as the White Sox are unlucky. The White Sox were on a pretty steady climb up from 08 to 09 after averaging a league worst 0.278 in 07 (those guys sucked hard).

Oh well, just look at my table and draw your own conclusions.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2chxsn7.png

khan
05-04-2010, 11:04 AM
You still have pressure on you to do a good job, and at any time if you perform under your expectations, you will start to feel the psychological pressures of underperforming - and that can spiral into worse performance.

The difference is that the guys walking the beat, pulling kids out of fires, teaching children, or advising people financially don't blather on about "just going out there and having fun." They don't do this, ALL while stupid media types and fans blather on about "pressure." Baseball is a GAME. It is recreation to US as fans, and to THEM as players. They so designate it as such by their own words.

It doesn't matter how important your job is in the eyes of society (way to go on making it a political discussion btw - you don't get away with that everyday on this site) to feel that pressure and buckle under it.
Exatly WHAT is "political" about not believing in the media-fed bull**** that is "pressure" while playing a game?

Yeah - these guys get paid millions of dollars to wear a glove, throw balls and hit them with sticks. So what! You get paid to tell people how to spend their money and you probably get paid much better than cops and firemen and teachers. Does that make your job any less important than theirs?
You asked the question, and I'll tell you this:

The cops and firefighters and teachers all have more important jobs to do than I. But I don't bitch about "pressure," while trying to sell the public on "going out to have fun." I consider myself incredibly fortunate to have the profession that I have.

I know a few of those people that were sweating at the end of 2008. If you're not one of them, congratulations - I guess you won then too...
No, I've just been doing this for awhile. The pending bubble was pretty transparent to anyone that was paying attention.

I don't even know what my point is - I just will post yet another response to someone's really rude - nonsense and ask the question - would you talk like you write in these posts to a Sox fan at a game, in a bar or on the street.
Exactly what was "rude?" I disagreed with someone else. I didn't call voodoo names, or impugn him personally. I state EXACTLY the same thing to a fellow SOX fan that I've stated here:

Exactly what "pressure" do millionaire ballplayers have?

Oh - I remember the last point that I wanted to make - if you're dissatisfied with the product then find another hobby.
And I've stated that there are other things that I enjoy, BEYOND baseball. Believe me, when the product sucks ass, I DO move my attention [and my disposable income] elsewhere. I believe pretty much EVERYBODY does. So exactly what are you getting at?

Those important jobs - the cops, the teachers, the firemen - they receive ****ty pay because we want to go to our baseball games (or various other hobbies).

Actually, of these three groups, I'd say that only the cops get ****ty pay. Teachers get each and every weekend and holiday off, and MOST summers off as well; Firefighters work some ~90 or so 24-hour days in a year, and spend the balance of their year doing other things.

When you add in the pensions [which I'll grant you are a dying breed] and the incredible health benefits that they get, all of these groups are well-compensated in totality. At least, when compared to folks in the private sector.

Instead of posting a bunch of self-righteous babble about the importance of this and that - go out and volunteer to work in a school for a day or something - your time would be better spent being passionate about that issue and [I]doing something about it - rather than wasting your time bitching on a White Sox forum...
Believe me, I do my share of volunteering for causes in which I believe already. There is NOTHING "self-righteous" about gaining some perspective about ballplayers' purported "pressure" and that of other groups. Cops and firefighters and teachers and Marines all have more pressure than ballplayers. Do you disagree? If so, why?

Oh yeah - and every time I hear someone griping about the pay of baseball players - I think this: You're just jealous because you don't have the skills to do it yourself.
Exactly where was the "griping?" I only observed that those of us that are better off have an easier time coping with real or imagined stressors. I am more fortunate than most people in the world, so believe me, I know this well. I have an easier time dealing with the "pressures" of performing for my clients and my firm than I did with trying to make rent when I wasn't as well off.

I think this is true for ALL of us, and very much so for ballplayers.

Don't kid anyone - you'd take the pay to play the game. We all take the pay to play what ever game we're offered to play for pay in life - don't get all self righteous because you receive less pay for a job that you you perceive to be more important than theirs - that's what the police/fireman/teacher discussion is really about - isn't it?
Sure. I'd play ball in MLB for what I'm making now. Or even HALF of what I'm making now. But, just like the ballplayers in MLB, you'd NEVER hear me bitch about "pressure." Just like the ballplayers do NOW, I'd talk about "just going out there, and having fun." Because it would be recreation to me, as it is to THEM.

Oh, and the police/fireman/teacher discussion is about perspective. IMO, fans shouldn't sympathize/empathize with ballplayers' supposed "pressure." Most fans have WAAAAAY more "pressure" than anyone in an MLB roster. [EDIT] Many fans are a month or two of joblessness(sp?) away from being homeless, while most ballplayers aren't. The former group experiences REAL pressure, while the latter do not.

khan
05-04-2010, 11:14 AM
The current White Sox BABIP for 2010 is 0.230. The league average is 0.297 and the next closest on the ladder is Toronto at 0.264. I don't know if a team has EVER been so unlucky as to hit so poorly despite putting the ball in play. In fact, no team is even CLOSE to hitting as "luckily" as bad as the White Sox are unlucky. The White Sox were on a pretty steady climb up from 08 to 09 after averaging a league worst 0.278 in 07 (those guys sucked hard).

Oh well, just look at my table and draw your own conclusions.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2chxsn7.png

Is it possible that the BABIP should be lower for this team because of players like Pierre that are constantly putting the ball in-play? I'm not suggesting that the BABIP is exactly where it should be. I'm only wondering if the team [as it currently is] is built to trend lower on this metric.

voodoochile
05-04-2010, 11:41 AM
Is it possible that the BABIP should be lower for this team because of players like Pierre that are constantly putting the ball in-play? I'm not suggesting that the BABIP is exactly where it should be. I'm only wondering if the team [as it currently is] is built to trend lower on this metric.

Probably, but .230? That's ridiculously low and falls outside three standard deviations from the norm (99.7% confidence interval).

jabrch
05-04-2010, 11:49 AM
When Beckham arrived last year, he started out terribly. Obviously Walker got him straightened out as he ended up with a good season. So if Walker fixed him last year, then maybe the problem is w Beckham and not Walker.


Or maybe it is the normal ebb and flow that hitters have and that he will be OK eventually just from working it out....

Gavin
05-04-2010, 12:28 PM
Is it possible that the BABIP should be lower for this team because of players like Pierre that are constantly putting the ball in-play? I'm not suggesting that the BABIP is exactly where it should be. I'm only wondering if the team [as it currently is] is built to trend lower on this metric.

I only think a team could be built to trend lower on BABIP if they are purposely trying to get on base with low-percentage types of putting the ball into play... bunts, swinging bunts, swinging at horrible pitches. I suppose a coach could be telling them to do this, but I doubt it.

WhiteSoxFTW
05-04-2010, 12:32 PM
When Beckham arrived last year, he started out terribly. Obviously Walker got him straightened out as he ended up with a good season. So if Walker fixed him last year, then maybe the problem is w Beckham and not Walker.

Read my post right before yours. Beckham has told people in the clubhouse that he is struggling and he wants to work it out himself. He has said that he has not even gone to Walker.

Walker didn't do anything to help Beckham last year and he hasn't done anything this year. His door is always open, but the players have to come to him. They are professionals, and they will ask for help if they want it.

khan
05-04-2010, 12:38 PM
I only think a team could be built to trend lower on BABIP if they are purposely trying to get on base with low-percentage types of putting the ball into play... bunts, swinging bunts, swinging at horrible pitches. I suppose a coach could be telling them to do this, but I doubt it.

Whether they are "trying" to do these things or not, I can think of a few SOX hitters that fit your description.

For example, Pierre has made a career out of bunts, swinging bunts, infield hits, and the like. He simply has insufficient power to hit the ball [regularly] out of the infield, and has had to rely on his speed.

Ramirez, like many Caribbean players, will swing at ANYTHING that isn't aimed directly at his head. It simply isn't "macho" to take a walk in Cuba or the Dominican or the Netherlands Antilles.

Beckham has swung at crap all year long.

AJ is an aggressive hitter that puts the ball into play with regularity.

And there are others that do exactly what you stated in the bolded part of your post.


I suppose that I tend to doubt the predictive power of the BABIP statistic for THIS team, given the tendencies of the individual players. I certainly can be wrong about this, however.

Gavin
05-04-2010, 12:45 PM
Whether they are "trying" to do these things or not, I can think of a few SOX hitters that fit your description.

For example, Pierre has made a career out of bunts, swinging bunts, infield hits, and the like. He simply has insufficient power to hit the ball [regularly] out of the infield, and has had to rely on his speed.

Ramirez, like many Caribbean players, will swing at ANYTHING that isn't aimed directly at his head. It simply isn't "macho" to take a walk in Cuba or the Dominican or the Netherlands Antilles.

Beckham has swung at crap all year long.

AJ is an aggressive hitter that puts the ball into play with regularity.

And there are others that do exactly what you stated in the bolded part of your post.


I suppose that I tend to doubt the predictive power of the BABIP statistic for THIS team, given the tendencies of the individual players. I certainly can be wrong about this, however.

Well, statistically anyway, there's a 99.7% chance it's not simply being unlucky and something else has to be to blame for such a poor BABIP. The standard deviations just show that the White Sox are waaaaaaaay out there compared to the league average... but we're dealing with a small sample size. It could very easily be just bad luck and balance out over time.

Anyway, if it's not bad luck and they truly have an INTENDED MLB-worst flat-out awful style of putting the ball into play.... well... that's not good!

And yes, 12th grade statistics makes one a propellerhead.

khan
05-04-2010, 12:51 PM
Well, statistically anyway, there's a 99.7% chance it's not simply being unlucky and something else has to be to blame for such a poor BABIP. The standard deviations just show that the White Sox are waaaaaaaay out there compared to the league average... but we're dealing with a small sample size. It could very easily be just bad luck and balance out over time.

And yes, 12th grade statistics makes one a propellerhead.

I would posit that it could be due to having a swinging-bunt, bunting, and IF hitting fool at the top of the lineup, followed by a hitter who's in his sophomore slump @ #2.

I'd like to re-visit this later on in the year, but if I had to guess, I'd predict the SOX will be below average in BABIP. This may be due to the way the team is constructed, due to Ozzie having too much influence into personnel decisions.

[EDIT] For clarity's sake:

The reason why I think BABIP is not all that predictive for this team is much like K/9 rates are not predictive to measure Buehrle's effectiveness as a pitcher.

Buehrle's tendency to pitch to contact suppresses his K/9 rates in such a way that by looking ONLY at that metric, one would believe Buehrle to be ineffective. But Buehrle's career contradicts that assumption. He's been a VERY effective pitcher by getting outs in other ways.

In much the same vein, the SOX's lineup construction may lead to lower BABIP rates than in other teams.

voodoochile
05-04-2010, 01:00 PM
Just to reiterate, the Sox currently have a BABIP 48 points (2+ standard deviations from the norm) below the 2007 squad. Anyone think this team is less talented than that disaster of a team? Anyone? Beuhler? Beuhler?

oooo... never noticed how close that is to Buehrle. Maybe we can start calling Mark, "Ferris"...:D:

But back to the point... The stats, IMO show the Sox are in a slump a really bad one. Though as I pointed out this weekend, they seem to be coming around having averaged 5 RPG since the start of the Seattle series.

Frater Perdurabo
05-04-2010, 08:40 PM
Maybe luck is part of their historically low BABIP.

But maybe it's also the types of hitters they are combined with the type of coaching they are getting.

For example, Rios has been getting robbed on some hard-hit balls. That's bad luck.

But Alexei, Quentin, Beckham, Pierre, Teahen, Kotsay and AJ have been popping out weakly and grounding out weakly. That's not bad luck. That's swinging over the top of balls (grounding out) and swinging underneath balls (popups). That's a chronic problem with this team, and has been in previous years with different players (although not to this extent).

Hitmen77
05-04-2010, 09:03 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2217970,CST-SPT-sox30.article

I don't know what to make of this. It sounds like these guys are so tight they can't have fun. Why is that? and why have we heard this "excuse" for want of a better word, a few times over the past few years with different players?

Is there a common thread to all this? Are the Sox the only ones who go through this?

Lip

Don't worry Lip. Once the weather warms up, then watch out!

This team is going to go on a tear. It'll happen any day now. I've known this since July 2006.

Gavin
05-21-2010, 11:43 PM
minor note... the White Sox BABIP is now .243

WhiteSox5187
05-22-2010, 12:43 AM
minor note... the White Sox BABIP is now .243

We're saved!

Gavin
06-05-2010, 11:21 PM
Up to .249! Greg Walker must be doing something!

The sad thing is that the Sox were closer to 1st in the AL Central when their BABIP was lower :rolleyes:

TDog
06-06-2010, 05:01 PM
Are you actually sitting there and saying that because they don't have as important a job from a societal perspective that they shouldn't/don't feel pressure?

You have any clue how the human psyche works? ...

I have wondered if working deadline pressure to put out a breaking news story would be easier if I had experienced the pressure of winning Wimbledon (at Centre Court with the queen sitting in her box). I wondered if I would say, "this is nothing compared to Wimbledon." Or if I had disarmed a bomb in some far-fetched dramatic scenario and I had played tor the Wimbledon championship, would I feel no pressure? Would Michael Jordan be impervious to pressure while playing baseball because he had withstood pressure of leading the Bulls to six NBA championships? Would he be impervious to pressure if he had to deal with extreme pressure in a life-and-death situation?

I don't think so.

Jurr
06-06-2010, 05:25 PM
Just to reiterate, the Sox currently have a BABIP 48 points (2+ standard deviations from the norm) below the 2007 squad. Anyone think this team is less talented than that disaster of a team? Anyone? Beuhler? Beuhler?

oooo... never noticed how close that is to Buehrle. Maybe we can start calling Mark, "Ferris"...:D:

But back to the point... The stats, IMO show the Sox are in a slump a really bad one. Though as I pointed out this weekend, they seem to be coming around having averaged 5 RPG since the start of the Seattle series.

Stats are picking up a bit, though history shows that the very same minute Sox teams get going offensively, the starting rotation lets them down.

cws05champ
06-06-2010, 05:54 PM
Stats are picking up a bit, though history shows that the very same minute Sox teams get going offensively, the starting rotation lets them down.

Well, that's already been the case all year...so do you think (GASP!) we could see both good pitching and good offense?

dickallen15
06-07-2010, 10:43 AM
People around here would have been doing cartwheels if Rudy Jaramillo was hired this past offseason and Walker fired. In the same amount of games this year, the Cubs have scored fewer runs than the Sox. I know the DH, the DH, but the Sox have next to no production from their DH. Shouldn't the great Rudy have the Cubs offense light years ahead of idiot Walker's White Sox offense?

The moral of the story is if you want a good offense, you have to load up on good offensive players. Walker isn't nearly the dufus he's made out to be.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 10:51 AM
People around here would have been doing cartwheels if Rudy Jaramillo was hired this past offseason and Walker fired. In the same amount of games this year, the Cubs have scored fewer runs than the Sox. I know the DH, the DH, but the Sox have next to no production from their DH. Shouldn't the great Rudy have the Cubs offense light years ahead of idiot Walker's White Sox offense?

The moral of the story is if you want a good offense, you have to load up on good offensive players. Walker isn't nearly the dufus he's made out to be.

The Cubs have scored 1 fewer run than the Sox, so cut the crap like we're some offensive juggernaut compared to them. Secondly, I love how you just overlook all of Rudy's other accomplishments and judge him solely on the 56 games he's been the Cubs' coach.

We get it, you love Greg Walker and think he's the greatest thing to happen to baseball since the curveball. A lot of us are tired of him.

dickallen15
06-07-2010, 10:56 AM
The Cubs have scored 1 fewer run than the Sox, so cut the crap like we're some offensive juggernaut compared to them. Secondly, I love how you just overlook all of Rudy's other accomplishments and judge him solely on the 56 games he's been the Cubs' coach.

We get it, you love Greg Walker and think he's the greatest thing to happen to baseball since the curveball. A lot of us are tired of him.
And I get you hate him. BTW, the Rangers offense is greatly improved over last year when Rudy was around. If that happened when Walker left, you would probably say that is proof Walker was no good. Better hitters make for a better offense.

doublem23
06-07-2010, 11:08 AM
And I get you hate him. BTW, the Rangers offense is greatly improved over last year when Rudy was around. If that happened when Walker left, you would probably say that is proof Walker was no good. Better hitters make for a better offense.

The Rangers are on pace to score 12 more runs than they did last year.

Gavin
06-25-2010, 10:57 AM
http://i45.tinypic.com/deahl0.jpg

The Sox BABIP has escaped the realm of statistical significance!

Walker must be doing something. Or nothing. We'll never know.

FielderJones
06-25-2010, 12:23 PM
Don't worry Lip. Once the weather warms up, then watch out!

This team is going to go on a tear. It'll happen any day now. I've known this since July 2006.

Good to see you had confidence in this club! :tongue: