PDA

View Full Version : Juan Pierre - update: benched Friday no more leadoff


stevied23
04-29-2010, 03:45 PM
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but something has to be done with this guy whether it's benching him or whatever. He is absolutely awful in every sense of the word. I know that there are some other players on this team who aren't contributing either but come on...he's 0-5 today. Pretty sad when the leadoff hitter sinks below a 200 batting average and can only hope to sniff that number again this year.

kittle42
04-29-2010, 03:51 PM
He'll have over 600 ABs this year no matter what he does, IMO.

stevied23
04-29-2010, 03:52 PM
Well here's to hoping he can do something to turn it around but from games I've been able to watch he looks lost at the plate. It's almost as if he's accepted the fact he's going to ground out or pop out to the infield at every at bat.

CWSpalehoseCWS
04-29-2010, 03:55 PM
He's not impressive that's for sure, but it isn't like we have many options for leading off. Rios would be the next best thing, but I wouldn't dare move him out of the middle of the order with the way this offense performs.

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2010, 03:58 PM
He's not impressive that's for sure, but it isn't like we have many options for leading off. Rios would be the next best thing, but I wouldn't dare move him out of the middle of the order with the way this offense performs.

I agree, there really aren't any better options within the organization. We either have to let him hit his way out of this or bench him and put someone like Alexei up there.

jabrch
04-29-2010, 03:59 PM
I'd suggest we have patience and let him do what he has done nearly every year of his career...that - or we can overreaction passionately...that ought to have good results.

kravdog
04-29-2010, 04:03 PM
I'd suggest we have patience and let him do what he has done nearly every year of his career...that - or we can overreaction passionately...that ought to have good results.

yeah, because what gets said on WSI actually has any influence on reality...

how about he just starts playing like the player you reference and then we sing his praises?

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2010, 04:03 PM
I'd suggest we have patience and let him do what he has done nearly every year of his career...that - or we can overreaction passionately...that ought to have good results.

You mean post a .330 something OBP?

WhiteSoxFTW
04-29-2010, 04:04 PM
I'd suggest we have patience and let him do what he has done nearly every year of his career...that - or we can overreaction passionately...that ought to have good results.

For how long do you advocate this patience? I'm not saying you pull the plug on him, yet. But...there has to be a point.

soltrain21
04-29-2010, 04:05 PM
I'd suggest we have patience and let him do what he has done nearly every year of his career...that - or we can overreaction passionately...that ought to have good results.

I wasn't aware people "over-reacting" to his terrible start on a message board would have any matter in the results.

I'd sit him for a few games. Let him get his head back on straight.

vinny
04-29-2010, 04:05 PM
It's definitely his slowest start in his career by far, but not entirely sure I buy the story that he's till getting used to the AL.

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2010, 04:05 PM
It's definitely his slowest start in his career by far, but not entirely sure I buy the story that he's till getting used to the AL.

He might never get used to the AL. This is the better league and it's not like he was one of the best players in the NL.

jabrch
04-29-2010, 04:05 PM
yeah, because what gets said on WSI actually has any influence on reality...

You appear to know that...and I know that...other people here seem to think their uninformed opinion actually should have relevance.

how about he just starts playing like the player you reference and then we sing his praises?


I'd like that too...so how about we watch and see if (what has happened in nearly every year of his career) actually happen? Because, as you well know, our alternatives aren't great. And if TCQ is really hurt, those alternatives become significantly worse.

Coops4Aces
04-29-2010, 04:06 PM
You mean post a .330 something OBP?

.347 :wink:

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2010, 04:09 PM
.347 :wink:

You have to go back to 2004 to when he posted an OBP that was above .331 as an everyday player.

jabrch
04-29-2010, 04:11 PM
For how long do you advocate this patience? I'm not saying you pull the plug on him, yet. But...there has to be a point.


That's a good Q...and I really have no answer. I'm a very patient guy - more than most.

All I can say is this... there are guys all over hitting poorly - realy poorly - who are not that bad of hitters. Just to name a few - Aramis Ramirez is hitting .155. Derek Lee is hitting .203. Brandon Phillips is hitting .210. Carlos Lee is hitting .173. HOFer-to-be Juston Upton is hitting .222/.315/.370 (where are all the cries for his coronation?) Why?

Because it is nearly 1 month into the season. I'd expect all of them to end up in the neighborhood of their 3 year avergaes. Same with Juan Pierre. I'm willing to go a few months deep with a guy like Pierre to see - and anyhow - we have no other good choices...

jabrch
04-29-2010, 04:12 PM
It's definitely his slowest start in his career by far, but not entirely sure I buy the story that he's till getting used to the AL.


I'd agree - he's sucking. I don't buy "getting used to the AL" - sounds like coach/playerspeak to me. Whatever they need to say or not say to feel good is fine with me. He just needs to do what he has always done. History says he will.

stevied23
04-29-2010, 04:13 PM
That's a good Q...and I really have no answer. I'm a very patient guy - more than most.

All I can say is this... there are guys all over hitting poorly - realy poorly - who are not that bad of hitters. Just to name a few - Aramis Ramirez is hitting .155. Derek Lee is hitting .203. Brandon Phillips is hitting .210. Carlos Lee is hitting .173. HOFer-to-be Juston Upton is hitting .222/.315/.370 (where are all the cries for his coronation?) Why?

Because it is nearly 1 month into the season. I'd expect all of them to end up in the neighborhood of their 3 year avergaes. Same with Juan Pierre. I'm willing to go a few months deep with a guy like Pierre to see - and anyhow - we have no other good choices...

Well I guess to answer your question, I'm not a fan of any of those ballclubs those players belong to so I don't care how they are performing. I know it's a bit early but I would just prefer our leadoff hitter to account for something other than an automatic out.

Coops4Aces
04-29-2010, 04:15 PM
You have to go back to 2004 to when he posted an OBP that was above .331 as an everyday player.

145 games isn't an everyday player?

jabrch
04-29-2010, 04:21 PM
Well I guess to answer your question, I'm not a fan of any of those ballclubs those players belong to so I don't care how they are performing. I know it's a bit early but I would just prefer our leadoff hitter to account for something other than an automatic out.

First - I think that's an exaggeration - but I get your point.

Second, Me too.

Third, our choices are to bench him or let him hit his way out. I don't see him improving on the bench. A day or too - like everyone else is getting - fine - but I don't see how the club is better off to give up on a guy who there is ample evidence to reasonably expect to end up about .290/.335.

I think as fans we tend to overanalyze this stuff. It could just be a slump. As I said in another post, lots of guys, who are much better hitters than Pierre, are not off to good starts. There is reason to believe they will all end up hitting better.

stevied23
04-29-2010, 04:24 PM
First - I think that's an exaggeration - but I get your point.

Second, Me too.

Third, our choices are to bench him or let him hit his way out. I don't see him improving on the bench. A day or too - like everyone else is getting - fine - but I don't see how the club is better off to give up on a guy who there is ample evidence to reasonably expect to end up about .290/.335.

I'm with ya, I'm hoping he reaches his career average.....

tick53
04-29-2010, 04:25 PM
I can't stress how much I hate having this guy on the team. Launch his ass, let Gordon lead-off and bring up Jordan Danks.

kittle42
04-29-2010, 04:26 PM
Well I guess to answer your question, I'm not a fan of any of those ballclubs those players belong to so I don't care how they are performing.

Then you are taking a very shortsighted view.

Yeah, he sucks now, but they have no choice but than to let him work through it.

jabrch
04-29-2010, 04:29 PM
I can't stress how much I hate having this guy on the team. Launch his ass, let Gordon lead-off and bring up Jordan Danks.


I love your passion and emotion. Makes for a great fan. Would make for a poor manager - but a great fan.

Sockinchisox
04-29-2010, 04:31 PM
Pierre has lost his leadoff job, he will hit 9th.

http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/13090207510

stevied23
04-29-2010, 04:31 PM
Then you are taking a very shortsighted view.

Yeah, he sucks now, but they have no choice but than to let him work through it.

Well to say I don't care is overstating it since I'm a baseball fan in general and try to keep up with the happenings around the league. There could be any number or reasons why all of the players mentioned before are off to a slow start. I guess I was more or less showing some frustration for Juan Pierre's slow start. I don't know that I'm the first person to feel frustrated so far this season :wink:

WhiteSoxFTW
04-29-2010, 04:33 PM
Pierre has lost his leadoff job, he will hit 9th.

http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/13090207510

I can't read twitter at work. Who is going to lead off? Rios?

DumpJerry
04-29-2010, 04:34 PM
I can't read twitter at work. Who is going to lead off? Rios?
Per Rongey: not yet known.

BadBobbyJenks
04-29-2010, 04:38 PM
Rios makes the most sense.

It will probably be Teahen though.

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2010, 04:40 PM
145 games isn't an everyday player?

Not when you start in only 76 of them.

LITTLE NELL
04-29-2010, 04:47 PM
I for one am still perplexed why we did not keep Pods.
I know he is injury prone but a hurt Pods is better than Pierre.

WhiteSoxFTW
04-29-2010, 04:52 PM
I for one am still perplexed why we did not keep Pods.
I know he is injury prone but a hurt Pods is better than Pierre.

It has been explained several times that Pods did it to himself. KW offered him a contract. Pods and his agent said "thanks, but we want to see what all is out there for Scott". The White Sox got tired of waiting around and didn't want to pay what Scott's agent thought he was worth. No team would pay that, for that matter. The Sox traded for Pierre since they couldn't sit around and wait for Pods all off-season. Pods signed with KC for basically the same deal the Sox offered him.

That's it in a nutshell. So, don't blame the Sox for not keeping him. He was a free agent, and he made his own decisions.

pythons007
04-29-2010, 05:07 PM
That's a good Q...and I really have no answer. I'm a very patient guy - more than most.

All I can say is this... there are guys all over hitting poorly - realy poorly - who are not that bad of hitters. Just to name a few - Aramis Ramirez is hitting .155. Derek Lee is hitting .203. Brandon Phillips is hitting .210. Carlos Lee is hitting .173. HOFer-to-be Juston Upton is hitting .222/.315/.370 (where are all the cries for his coronation?) Why?

Because it is nearly 1 month into the season. I'd expect all of them to end up in the neighborhood of their 3 year avergaes. Same with Juan Pierre. I'm willing to go a few months deep with a guy like Pierre to see - and anyhow - we have no other good choices...

I completely agree with this statement. If this was a month near the middle and his average didn't look so effected by his play I'm sure no one would be calling for his head. However since it's at the beginning it just looks all the much worse.

All the players you mentioned are going to produce and produce with average just below or just over .300!

I'm with ya, I'm hoping he reaches his career average.....

Pierre is a career .300 hitter. I think he'll play near his norms over the course of the season. It's been reported on twitter that he'll bat 9th. I think it's a good decision, to let him play himself out of the funk.

I for one am still perplexed why we did not keep Pods.
I know he is injury prone but a hurt Pods is better than Pierre.

Please tell me you're kidding! Were you pissed that they didn't bring him back the year before? They signed him well into the season after the Rockies let him go.

I think a lot of people on this board were happy he was gone. You're probably only say this because he's off to the best start of his career.:rolleyes:

Foulke You
04-29-2010, 05:29 PM
It has been explained several times that Pods did it to himself. KW offered him a contract. Pods and his agent said "thanks, but we want to see what all is out there for Scott". The White Sox got tired of waiting around and didn't want to pay what Scott's agent thought he was worth. No team would pay that, for that matter. The Sox traded for Pierre since they couldn't sit around and wait for Pods all off-season. Pods signed with KC for basically the same deal the Sox offered him.

That's it in a nutshell. So, don't blame the Sox for not keeping him. He was a free agent, and he made his own decisions.
Excellent post. I am tired of the moaning and wailing about Podsednik. The only reason he isn't on the White Sox is because of himself, not the Sox organization.

DickAllen72
04-29-2010, 05:30 PM
Pierre isn't getting any younger. When a player's main asset is speed and he loses a half step, his value greatly decreases. He may no longer be able to beat out those infield hits and no longer be able to steal bases at a successful rate.

Combine that with a lack of any kind of power, a history of never being much of a clutch hitter, average to below average defensive ability along with a very weak arm and a below average OBP it doesn't add up to what a legit contender would want as their starting LFer and leadoff hitter.

kittle42
04-29-2010, 05:31 PM
Excellent post. I am tired of the moaning and wailing about Podsednik. The only reason he isn't on the White Sox is because of himself, not the Sox organization.

Amen. Too bad some only think with emotion and don't care about the facts.

Lillian
04-29-2010, 05:33 PM
Pierre is not the only issue here that could influence what the Sox do with the lead off spot. They still need that left handed presence in the line up.

If they can find a power, and high OBP left handed bat, then it could be a DH or an outfielder. If he's a DH, you simply play Quentin, Rios and Jones in the outfield. There is also the possibility of a first baseman, with Konerko going to DH. That would seem to be less likely.

In any case, Rios leads off, and Pierre becomes a bench player and pinch runner.

Carlos Delgado is still unsigned, and apparently he will be ready to play around mid season. He may be the best option available.

Lip Man 1
04-29-2010, 05:35 PM
Nell:

He wanted a MULTI YEAR deal, with his injury history Kenny did the smart thing in my opinion.

Lip

Tragg
04-29-2010, 05:37 PM
Pierre and Kotsay are Ozzie's boys....Ozzie wanted them on this team and they will continue to play, no matter how badly they hit.

Pierre's normal production, minus the steals, is available for league minimums. Ryan Sweeney, another one of Gullen's exorcisees, e.g.
And we don't need the steals...good baserunning, yes, but steals, no.

kittle42
04-29-2010, 05:44 PM
Pierre is not the only issue here that could influence what the Sox do with the lead off spot. They still need that left handed presence in the line up.

When I have some time, I am going to find enough data to debunk this myth that you need L/R balance.

It is this myth which causes Ozzie to make some of his ****ty lineup decisions day in and day out.

The Immigrant
04-29-2010, 05:55 PM
He's benched for tomorrow and may not play much this weekend. Teahen most likely to play "the leadoff position."

Lillian
04-29-2010, 06:25 PM
When I have some time, I am going to find enough data to debunk this myth that you need L/R balance.

It is this myth which causes Ozzie to make some of his ****ty lineup decisions day in and day out.

I posted the following remarks in one of my previous threads:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=2471941#post2471941

I also think the lefty righty match ups are overrated, however the points which I made here argue strongly for at least one potent left handed bat.

Coops4Aces
04-29-2010, 07:33 PM
If he isn't leading off and wrecking havoc on the bases, then he shouldn't be on the team, let alone in the lineup.

JermaineDye05
04-29-2010, 07:37 PM
Juan can't hit?

My sig's got it covered.

NLaloosh
04-29-2010, 07:37 PM
If Pierre and Quentin are out for tomorrow then Kotsay plays LF and Nix DH's ?

russ99
04-29-2010, 09:01 PM
Pierre isn't getting any younger. When a player's main asset is speed and he loses a half step, his value greatly decreases. He may no longer be able to beat out those infield hits and no longer be able to steal bases at a successful rate.

Combine that with a lack of any kind of power, a history of never being much of a clutch hitter, average to below average defensive ability along with a very weak arm and a below average OBP it doesn't add up to what a legit contender would want as their starting LFer and leadoff hitter.

I'm so tired of that "no power" argument. Leadoff hitters don't need power.

Also, he's got 9 stolen bases this year, which is slightly above his career average, He has not "lost a step".

His problem is that nothing's dropping in right now.

Craig Grebeck
04-29-2010, 09:05 PM
...because he's not hitting for ****. It's not a new thing -- this Juan Pierre sucking at baseball stuff.

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2010, 09:07 PM
...because he's not hitting for ****. It's not a new thing -- this Juan Pierre sucking at baseball stuff.

For God's sake, I am not a fan of him, but he is a career .299 hitter, if he were hitting that now there wouldn't be a problem. He might be past his prime but this isn't Alex ****ing Cintron we're talking about.

KMcMahon817
04-29-2010, 09:17 PM
...because he's not hitting for ****. It's not a new thing -- this Juan Pierre sucking at baseball stuff.

I am not claiming he has played anywhere near well this season, but to say that he sucks as a baseball is ignorant. I want him on the bench until he figures his **** out too. But He's a lifetime .300 hitter. Usually, when you .300 over the course of a pretty long career, you're a pretty good hitter. Just saying.

KMcMahon817
04-29-2010, 09:17 PM
For God's sake, I am not a fan of him, but he is a career .299 hitter, if he were hitting that now there wouldn't be a problem. He might be past his prime but this isn't Alex ****ing Cintron we're talking about.

This is Grebeck after all.

DannyCaterFan
04-29-2010, 09:18 PM
We can only hope this guy gets hot when the weather heats up. Right now he is completely useless. Drop him to 9th in the order.

psyclonis
04-29-2010, 09:26 PM
Pierre is arguably KWs worst pickup... especially when you factor in his squeezed salary restrictions.
KW acquired him too early in the off season (The Sox were probably the only team that wanted him)
8M/2 for pierre vs 8M/1 for Damon... or even 3M for Pods
Hmmmmmm

Craig Grebeck
04-29-2010, 09:28 PM
So he's been good the last 3-4 years? News to me.

Frater Perdurabo
04-29-2010, 09:32 PM
I supported the Pierre acquisition, but his abysmal performance is making me regret it.

I hope he can bounce back and start hitting .300 and OBP-ing .335 from this point forward. Just like Pods really helped the offense last year, a .300/.335 leadoff hitter with Pierre's speed would help ignite this offense. With Pierre on base, Beckham, Rios, Jones and Paulie would get more fastballs from distracted pitchers.

Coops4Aces
04-29-2010, 09:35 PM
So he's been good the last 3-4 years? News to me.

Last year he batted 308 with a 365 OBP

Craig Grebeck
04-29-2010, 09:37 PM
Last year he batted 308 with a 365 OBP
And the other 3-4 seasons prior?

WhiteSox5187
04-29-2010, 09:45 PM
And the other 3-4 seasons prior?

Never hit below .280 with at least 40 SBs, his OBP wasn't good, but that's pretty far from sucking.

DickAllen72
04-29-2010, 09:55 PM
I'm so tired of that "no power" argument. Leadoff hitters don't need power.
When they are high OBP guys they don't need much power, but even then it's nice if they can hit a few line drives in the gap that can make it to the wall every now and then. Pierre is neither a high OBP guy nor can he drive the ball at all.
Also, he's got 9 stolen bases this year, which is slightly above his career average, He has not "lost a step".
I don't know whom you are quoting. I said Pierre isn't getting any younger, and when any player whose main asset has been speed loses a "half step" he no longer beats out all those infield hits and doesn't steal bases like he used to. At 33, Juan is approaching that point in his career.

We saw last night Pierre grounding into two double plays and just barely missing beating out that ground ball to end the game. It's early yet to judge how successful he will be as a base stealer this season. So far he's at a 75% success rate. Any less than that is a liability.

Although he has been a .299 career hitter, he has never been a high OBP guy, and much of his success has been due to excellent speed. Pierre cannot be expected to get any better with age. As he begins to slow down, he has no other tools to compensate for his loss of speed.

Slappy
04-29-2010, 10:15 PM
I'd suggest we have patience and let him do what he has done nearly every year of his career...that - or we can overreaction passionately...that ought to have good results.

There is no in-between in life. That's one thing I've learned at WSI.

kufram
04-30-2010, 01:17 AM
Nell:

He wanted a MULTI YEAR deal, with his injury history Kenny did the smart thing in my opinion.

Lip

I agree. No way could we do a multi-year and can't blame Pods for trying to get one. It wasn't meant to be. But that doesn't mean we're not allowed to miss him and respect what he did for the club. I just loved the way Pods played for his life last year. Pierre needs to do that now. We HAVE to let Pierre play into his game. 9 spot is the best idea for a change. There aren't a lot of great players available in May.

NLaloosh
04-30-2010, 08:08 AM
You mean Pods wanted a 2 year deal ?????????

You mean like the one they gave Juan Pierre ????

I'll bet Pods would've taken less than they are paying Pierre over the 2 years.

I really wanted Matsui firstly over either of them and can't believe they didn't spend the dough on him. At least he would've put people in the seats and brought in more revenue and exposure besides made the lineup much better.

Secondly, I would've taken Pods before Pierre and he would've been cheaper no doubt.

But, the whole idea of Ozzie needing a leadoff hitter and his whole offensive philosophy has not worked with what this organization has been able to assemble.

I have never seen a group of 9 guys look more out of sync than this group. There is no plan or cohesion in any way. They look they all met right before game time.

asindc
04-30-2010, 08:20 AM
You mean Pods wanted a 2 year deal ?????????

You mean like the one they gave Juan Pierre ????

I'll bet Pods would've taken less than they are paying Pierre over the 2 years.

I really wanted Matsui firstly over either of them and can't believe they didn't spend the dough on him. At least he would've put people in the seats and brought in more revenue and exposure besides made the lineup much better.

Secondly, I would've taken Pods before Pierre and he would've been cheaper no doubt.

But, the whole idea of Ozzie needing a leadoff hitter and his whole offensive philosophy has not worked with what this organization has been able to assemble.

I have never seen a group of 9 guys look more out of sync than this group. There is no plan or cohesion in any way. They look they all met right before game time.

I'm glad you cannot believe that since there is no way of knowing what they offered, considering that Matsui signed a contract within the range of the Sox budget. As has been noted many times over the past few months, all indications were that Matsui only wanted to play for a few select teams, with the Sox not being among them.

As to the second point, let's see what Pods and Pierre are doing in June and then we'll talk. Regardless, part of that discussion has to include the fact that Pods asked for a multi-year deal from the Sox, which no one wanted to give him. If Pods had asked for the same contract from the Sox that he ended up taking from KC, then I think criticism of KW in this instance would be fair. Pods overplayed his hand and the Sox moved on. Pierre is playing lousy, but I have yet to hear from anyone who truly believes he will continue to play this badly throughout the season. His failing is compounded by the fact that he is on a new team in a new league, and his slump is taking place at the beginning of the season instead of the middle of it.

russ99
04-30-2010, 09:25 AM
I'm glad you cannot believe that since there is no way of knowing what they offered, considering that Matsui signed a contract within the range of the Sox budget. As has been noted many times over the past few months, all indications were that Matsui only wanted to play for a few select teams, with the Sox not being among them.

Do the math (2010 season):


Pierre - $3M after the cash the Dodgers sent.

Damon - $8M
Matsui - $6M

Keep believing that Kenny had the budget and/or authorization to go over budget for those guys, the reality is different.

And reports on both players are that Kenny low-balled offers on both of them.

asindc
04-30-2010, 09:38 AM
Do the math (2010 season):


Pierre - $3M after the cash the Dodgers sent.

Damon - $8M
Matsui - $6M

Keep believing that Kenny had the budget and/or authorization to go over budget for those guys, the reality is different.

And reports on both players are that Kenny low-balled offers on both of them.

Links, please.

As far as going over budget is concerned, I don't believe KW was authorized to go over budget for Damon (which most likely just would have resulted in the bidding war Boras craved for his client), nor do I believe Matsui would have come here barring a significantly overpriced offer (i.e., 2 yr./$8 million per at least). Considering that not even the Yanks offered Damon $8 million, I think Detroit overpaid for him, not the other way around.

dickallen15
04-30-2010, 09:46 AM
Do the math (2010 season):


Pierre - $3M after the cash the Dodgers sent.

Damon - $8M
Matsui - $6M

Keep believing that Kenny had the budget and/or authorization to go over budget for those guys, the reality is different.

And reports on both players are that Kenny low-balled offers on both of them.

The Sox already had Pierre when they went after Damon and supposedly offered $6 million. If they didn't have Pierre they theoretically could have trumped Detroits offer just with the cash they were willing to lay out this spring.

That's not to say Detroit would have gone even higher, but to say KW didn't have the budget for Damon or Matsui I don't believe to be accurate. Especially if he would have passed on Pierre.

spongyfungy
04-30-2010, 09:53 AM
I think Ozzie is overreacting dropping him 9th. He should just leave him there and let him work through it. In '06 with the Cubs, he didn't start to hit until first week of June so it's not unprecedented.

Huisj
04-30-2010, 09:59 AM
I think Ozzie is overreacting dropping him 9th. He should just leave him there and let him work through it. In '06 with the Cubs, he didn't start to hit until first week of June so it's not unprecedented.

So if he doesn't start to hit until the first week of June, isn't it ok to maybe bat him 9th until he starts hitting? Once he hits like a leadoff hitter, let him leadoff.

JC456
04-30-2010, 10:17 AM
I think Ozzie is overreacting dropping him 9th. He should just leave him there and let him work through it. In '06 with the Cubs, he didn't start to hit until first week of June so it's not unprecedented.

You think he's over-reacting? He's stranded 12 runners in three games, and hasn't gotten his own butt on base to be a threat. He has been 0 for for so long his bat has cob webs. And you think placing him 9th is an over reaction. I'd bench him for two weeks and see how he feels about that. He's a major issue in the line up and in a line up that already has other issues. I'd rather they bring up one of the kids and let them get some PT before giving Pierre any more at bats. Hell he can't even bunt the ball. Yesterday's seventh inning failure was the straw that broke Ozzie's back.

thanks Ozzie for recognizing what everyone else has.

Lip Man 1
04-30-2010, 10:39 AM
This and that:

Matsui was quoted in the mainstream Chicago media as saying that the White Sox were his "second choice after the Yankees..." Take that for what it may be worth to you.

Lip

doublem23
04-30-2010, 02:00 PM
I think Ozzie is overreacting dropping him 9th. He should just leave him there and let him work through it. In '06 with the Cubs, he didn't start to hit until first week of June so it's not unprecedented.

Well, not really, he hit fine in April (.282/.301/.352 on April 23), he slumped bad in May.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-30-2010, 02:05 PM
Between Pierre and Vizquel, we have two guys on the roster who are lucky to hit it out of the infield and have zero chance of hitting it out of the park. In addition, we play in a HR hitter's park.

How can this possibly be a good idea?

doublem23
04-30-2010, 02:10 PM
Between Pierre and Vizquel, we have two guys on the roster who are lucky to hit it out of the infield and have zero chance of hitting it out of the park. In addition, we play in a HR hitter's park.

How can this possibly be a good idea?

The problem isn't that they can't hit a HR, the problem is they can't get on base. Scotty Pods was never much of a power threat, but he was always getting to first, so it wasn't a big deal.

Rdy2PlayBall
04-30-2010, 02:11 PM
Between Pierre and Vizquel, we have two guys on the roster who are lucky to hit it out of the infield and have zero chance of hitting it out of the park. In addition, we play in a HR hitter's park.

How can this possibly be a good idea?Then why is Pods a good idea? :scratch:
Teams can't have all HR hitters... if Pierre started this season performing his career averages, everyone would be in love with him. Good average, fast leadoff hitters are some of the funnest guys to watch.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-30-2010, 02:58 PM
Then why is Pods a good idea? :scratch:
Teams can't have all HR hitters... if Pierre started this season performing his career averages, everyone would be in love with him. Good average, fast leadoff hitters are some of the funnest guys to watch.

I completely agree with you. The '85 Cardinals are one of my favorite all-time teams. All the players don't have to be HR hitters but they should at least have some pop in their bat. Even Pods last year had 38 extra base hits and 537 ABs. By comparison and even if you don't count this year, Pierre has 37 extra base hits in his last 755 ABs.

As far as I'm concerned, once you factor in Pierre's inability to hit the ball with any authority, noodle arm and propensity to get caught stealing, he's basically an overall liability. The fact that he is fast and therefore "qualifies" to lead off doesn't change that.

Even if you don't agree with me on Pierre, I hope that we can agree that Vizquel has no business being on this squad.

Rdy2PlayBall
04-30-2010, 03:02 PM
I completely agree with you. The '85 Cardinals are one of my favorite all-time teams. All the players don't have to be HR hitters but they should at least have some pop in their bat. Even Pods last year had 38 extra base hits and 537 ABs. By comparison and even if you don't count this year, Pierre has 37 extra base hits in his last 755 ABs.

As far as I'm concerned, once you factor in Pierre's inability to hit the ball with any authority, noodle arm and propensity to get caught stealing, he's basically an overall liability. The fact that he is fast and therefore "qualifies" to lead off doesn't change that.

Even if you don't agree with me on Pierre, I hope that we can agree that Vizquel has no business being on this squad.He has no business ever stepping to the plate. I'd rather send our pitcher out there. I like that he is here for Beckham though, who is actually playing a good 2nd base... and he can help Alexei too. Nothing about Vizquel = offensive, it's kind of pathetic.

WhiteSoxFTW
04-30-2010, 03:19 PM
He has no business ever stepping to the plate. I'd rather send our pitcher out there. I like that he is here for Beckham though, who is actually playing a good 2nd base... and he can help Alexei too. Nothing about Vizquel = offensive, it's kind of pathetic.

This is not the NBA. There aren't really any spots on the roster for a player/coach. Do we know for a fact that Omar Vizquel is out there watching Alexei and Beckham take infield and personally taking them aside and giving them pointers. We have Joey Cora for that, and the consesus is that he does a pretty good job. If the White Sox are going to bring Vizquel in as a late inning defensive replacement (which is what I really thought (read hoped) he would be), then that is fine. But, otherwise, I would rather see Nix in the lineup. At least he has a chance of hitting the ball out of the park.

According to www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com), Omar has started SIX games for the Sox this year. 6 of 22 or 27.3%. Jayson Nix has started 3. Does anyone else think that should be the other way around?

Rohan
04-30-2010, 03:26 PM
Is he benched or is he in the line up and just not leading off? I'm getting conflicting reports here.

theamb
04-30-2010, 03:55 PM
If they really wanted someone with a noodle arm, they might as well have just kept Pods.

At least he would've been cheaper and might hit the ball on occasion

doublem23
04-30-2010, 04:02 PM
If they really wanted someone with a noodle arm, they might as well have just kept Pods.

At least he would've been cheaper and might hit the ball on occasion

Someone should put an over/under on how many posts there will be this season about how the Sox should have kept Pods.

mzh
04-30-2010, 04:04 PM
Even Pods last year had 38 extra base hits and 537 ABs. By comparison and even if you don't count this year, Pierre has 37 extra base hits in his last 755 ABs.

Pierre had 37 XBH in his last 755 ABs... playing a lot of part time ball in which it can be hard to get into a rhythm, not to mention he was in one of the worst hitters parks in baseball. In 08/09 on the road, Pierre had 27 XBH compared to 12 at home. His XBH on the road project to roughly 1 XBH per 14 ABs, which over 537 ABs projects to... 38 XBH.

I don't like having to use sort of complicated statistical arguments to prove a point, but his park really did apparently make a difference.

theamb
04-30-2010, 04:05 PM
Well, he essentially was one of our best players last season after being picked up off the scrap heap.

And, odds are, he would still be.

Sad but true

WhiteSox5187
04-30-2010, 04:08 PM
Well, not really, he hit fine in April (.282/.301/.352 on April 23), he slumped bad in May.

This low OBP is why I never really liked Pierre as a leadoff guy (granted it is only for one month and just because a guy has a low OBP does not mean he "sucks"). I'd take that line from our nine hole though, but I have no clue who the hell leads off for us. Tonight it's Alexei but I don't think he's a long term solution, could Beckham be an option?

soxfan1965
05-01-2010, 08:25 PM
0 for 3 today. Step 1: move to 9th place, done. Step 2: move to minors for 2 weeks or so--> pending???

DSpivack
05-01-2010, 08:30 PM
This low OBP is why I never really liked Pierre as a leadoff guy (granted it is only for one month and just because a guy has a low OBP does not mean he "sucks"). I'd take that line from our nine hole though, but I have no clue who the hell leads off for us. Tonight it's Alexei but I don't think he's a long term solution, could Beckham be an option?

Why Beckham? He's not doing much better.

0 for 3 today. Step 1: move to 9th place, done. Step 2: move to minors for 2 weeks or so--> pending???

The Minors? Pierre isn't the only guy struggling right now, so is AJ, so is Alexei. Next to Vizquel, Kotsay has been the worst hitter on the team, at least going into today's game. We can't send all of those guys down because they're in a funk.

California Sox
05-01-2010, 08:55 PM
0 for 3 today. Step 1: move to 9th place, done. Step 2: move to minors for 2 weeks or so--> pending???

He can't be sent down more than likely. Granted no team is going to claim him, but you'd have major problems with vets the union etc. if you tried.

I was at the game today -- all four hours of it. Pierre looks horrible. By comparison, Vizquel was smacking the ball.

I wish they'd release him, but I didn't want him here in the first place. I thought was over-rated with the Marlins, terrible with the Cubs, awful with the Dodgers minus one good 6week stretch. If he's your leftfielder, good luck competing in the American League.

VMSNS
05-01-2010, 09:02 PM
He can't be sent down more than likely. Granted no team is going to claim him, but you'd have major problems with vets the union etc. if you tried.

I was at the game today -- all four hours of it. Pierre looks horrible. By comparison, Vizquel was smacking the ball.

I wish they'd release him, but I didn't want him here in the first place. I thought was over-rated with the Marlins, terrible with the Cubs, awful with the Dodgers minus one good 6week stretch. If he's your leftfielder, good luck competing in the American League.

I'm pretty sure Ozzie has a man-crush of Pierre, so the chances of him being released are pretty slim.

SOXfnNlansing
05-01-2010, 09:36 PM
He only plays crappy when he's on a Chicago team.

Noneck
05-02-2010, 12:17 AM
I wish they'd release him, but I didn't want him here in the first place.

The Sox will never release him and eat the rest of the 3m for this year and 5m for next year.

SephClone89
05-02-2010, 12:48 AM
He only plays crappy when he's on a Chicago team.

Why do we all insist on perpetuating this myth that Pierre was bad for the Cubs?

He hit .292, stole 58 bases, and led the National League in hits.

Craig Grebeck
05-02-2010, 06:33 AM
Why do we all insist on perpetuating this myth that Pierre was bad for the Cubs?

He hit .292, stole 58 bases, and led the National League in hits.
And he led the NL in outs. What's your point?

Konerko05
05-02-2010, 06:36 AM
And he led the NL in outs. What's your point?

I remember when posters got all over me after the first couple games when I made a comment along the lines of, "It's going to be fun watching Pierre weakly ground out the 2B all season."

So does anyone think my comment won't hold true for the rest of the season?

Lillian
05-02-2010, 08:37 AM
As many of you have pointed out, batting lead off should primarily be about getting on base. Pierre's career OBP is not very good, and it's especially unimpressive over the last 5 years.

His stolen base success rate has also declined. He's doing alright so far this year, but he only stole 71% of the 42 bases he attempted to steal last year. And it's not as though he was running wild on the bases. He didn't try to steal all that often.

Someone suggested that he played in a notoriously bad hitters park in L.A.
I disagree in that it may be tough for home run hitters, but a big park plays well for both slap hitters and line drive hitters, because there is more room for the outfielders to cover. More balls should fall in for hits, and the big alleys afford a better chance for extra base hits. Last year he had a combined total of 24 doubles and triples in 380 at bats. That's not very good, and when you add in his zero extra base hits in his first 91 at bats this year, the numbers begin to corroborate what we all seem to be observing, and that is that he can barely hit the ball out of the infield, much less drive it into the gaps.

One thing that he does do well is foul off a lot of pitches, and that has some value, however he is not a good overall option to lead off. Why would you want a guy like him to get more at bats than anyone else on the team?
Perhaps he'd be ok as a number 9 hitter, but given his mediocre defense and especially weak arm, I'd really rather not see him in the lineup at all.
With the exception of lacking a potent left handed bat, this team has pretty nice balance up and down the lineup, so everyone could get RBI opportunities, but I'm afraid Pierre looks like a guy who's afraid to drive ina big run.

If the Sox could just find a potent left handed bat, I'd bench him. An outfield of Quentin, Rios and Jones is just fine. Rios wouldn't be a bad option to lead off, if they had a good left handed bat to hit in the middle of the order. The only problem is, there just don't seem to be any left handed hitters available. There certainly aren't any in our organization!

tick53
05-02-2010, 08:44 AM
Every time a thread is started here is going to give me a reason to bitch about Juan Pierre. He's a totally useless piece of dung and I wish he'd GO AWAY!!!!:angry:

Tragg
05-02-2010, 09:06 AM
As many of you have pointed out, batting lead off should primarily be about getting on base.
The field manager doesn't concur with that statement.

Craig Grebeck
05-02-2010, 09:09 AM
Never hit below .280 with at least 40 SBs, his OBP wasn't good, but that's pretty far from sucking.
So a below average on-base percentage combined with average defense and an inability to steal bases at an efficient rate? WHERE DO I SIGN?

NLaloosh
05-02-2010, 09:11 AM
The field manager doesn't concur with that statement.


Judging by the players I've seen him favor over the years anywhere in the lineup I don't think he's familiar with concept of OnBasePercentage.

He certainly wasn't when he played.

psyclonis
05-02-2010, 10:19 AM
According to fangraphs:
Juan is the 2nd worst player in the MLB. (based WAR) Just ahead of Carlos Lee...

Also note that the Sox have 4 players in the bottom 40 (Juan,TCQ,Alexei and AJ)

Tragg
05-02-2010, 10:23 AM
Judging by the players I've seen him favor over the years anywhere in the lineup I don't think he's familiar with concept of OnBasePercentage.

He certainly wasn't when he played.
Agree: If you look at where Ozzie puts players in the lineup, his personnel decisions re the roster, and himself as a hitter, and his comments from time to time (my favorite: if obp is that important for a leadoff hitter, I should have Thome leading off). Guillen is indifferent, at best, to OBP.

WhiteSox5187
05-02-2010, 11:54 AM
So a below average on-base percentage combined with average defense and an inability to steal bases at an efficient rate? WHERE DO I SIGN?

For a number nine hitter, that's pretty good. But wait, you want a team built around guys like Mark Reynolds and Nick Swishers who will struggle to hit much above .250 but will have nice OBPs and OPSs and won't steal many bases but will hit homeruns and strand lots of baserunners because they strike out so often. Then you will wonder why your team loses so many one run games and get shut down against good pitching and then wonder how a team like the 2005 White Sox managed to win so many games with an offense that only had two guys with an OPS above .800 and the sabermetrics just don't add up.

The "little things" that history has proven win ball games are more or less lost on you I suspect.

Sockinchisox
05-02-2010, 01:43 PM
Pierre is going to be back at leadoff this week.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100502&content_id=9741554&notebook_id=9742572&vkey=notebook_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Domeshot17
05-02-2010, 02:00 PM
For a number nine hitter, that's pretty good. But wait, you want a team built around guys like Mark Reynolds and Nick Swishers who will struggle to hit much above .250 but will have nice OBPs and OPSs and won't steal many bases but will hit homeruns and strand lots of baserunners because they strike out so often. Then you will wonder why your team loses so many one run games and get shut down against good pitching and then wonder how a team like the 2005 White Sox managed to win so many games with an offense that only had two guys with an OPS above .800 and the sabermetrics just don't add up.

The "little things" that history has proven win ball games are more or less lost on you I suspect.

The White Sox rarely struck out last year. They had plenty of speed. They had little power. I guess 2009 doesn't really fit into your argument.

The 2010 White Sox ignored power and OBP and we are one of the worst offensive units in Baseball.

2005 we had a team of guys who got lucky and all decided to have career years at the right time. The inability to sustain winning after is proof. We didn't have a Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies calibur team that would consistently get back to the top. We had Pods,Garland,Cotts Hermanson, and Politte, and Iguchi, and Everett etc etc etc. just all play well, come together at the right time. The 2009 Yankees just won a world series with Nick Swisher.

Unless you build a team like the Red Sox, where you ignore power but have 5 guys who will still finish with a 300 average and a 850 OPS, this method of offense is terrible for building a long term winner.

Konerko05
05-02-2010, 02:04 PM
For a number nine hitter, that's pretty good. But wait, you want a team built around guys like Mark Reynolds and Nick Swishers who will struggle to hit much above .250 but will have nice OBPs and OPSs and won't steal many bases but will hit homeruns and strand lots of baserunners because they strike out so often. Then you will wonder why your team loses so many one run games and get shut down against good pitching and then wonder how a team like the 2005 White Sox managed to win so many games with an offense that only had two guys with an OPS above .800 and the sabermetrics just don't add up.

The "little things" that history has proven win ball games are more or less lost on you I suspect.

The "nine hitter" isn't a position. He's horrible for a LF/DH.

TheVulture
05-02-2010, 02:05 PM
According to fangraphs:
Juan is the 2nd worst player in the MLB. (based WAR) Just ahead of Carlos Lee...


Carlos Lee is the worst player in baseball???:scratch:

Konerko05
05-02-2010, 02:06 PM
2005 we had a team of guys who got lucky and all decided to have career years at the right time. The inability to sustain winning after is proof. We didn't have a Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies calibur team that would consistently get back to the top. We had Pods,Garland,Cotts Hermanson, and Politte, and Iguchi, and Everett etc etc etc. just all play well, come together at the right time. The 2009 Yankees just won a world series with Nick Swisher.


Don't forget a very, very good defensive infield. The left side of an infield was a vacuum.

Konerko05
05-02-2010, 02:07 PM
Carlos Lee is the worst player in baseball???:scratch:

WAR! What is it good for?

Craig Grebeck
05-02-2010, 02:12 PM
For a number nine hitter, that's pretty good. But wait, you want a team built around guys like Mark Reynolds and Nick Swishers who will struggle to hit much above .250 but will have nice OBPs and OPSs and won't steal many bases but will hit homeruns and strand lots of baserunners because they strike out so often. Then you will wonder why your team loses so many one run games and get shut down against good pitching and then wonder how a team like the 2005 White Sox managed to win so many games with an offense that only had two guys with an OPS above .800 and the sabermetrics just don't add up.

The "little things" that history has proven win ball games are more or less lost on you I suspect.
Is it a rule that guys who are quick can't get on base at an adequate clip or hit for some semblance of power?

jabrch
05-02-2010, 03:43 PM
I'm pretty sure Ozzie has a man-crush of Pierre, so the chances of him being released are pretty slim.


His career, 2009 and 3 year numbers are all vastly different from his April 2010 numbers. I'm still expecting his 2010 to end up somewhere in the .280/.330 zone. That means he will have some good months ahead of him if he does.

DSpivack
05-02-2010, 05:46 PM
Carlos Lee is the worst player in baseball???:scratch:

WAR! What is it good for?

Have you seen his start to the season?

Konerko05
05-02-2010, 07:12 PM
Have you seen his start to the season?

It was a really bad joke. Try singing what I posted.

russ99
05-02-2010, 07:49 PM
The field manager doesn't concur with that statement.

You tell me where we're going to get a leadoff guy with a good OBP for under $3M...

We don't pay for them, and can't develop them, so we are stuck with guys like Pods and Pierre, with plenty of steals, some hitting talent, but a lower OBP.

Is it a rule that guys who are quick can't get on base at an adequate clip or hit for some semblance of power?

Where are these magical players who are good leadoff guys who steal bases and have power? The best leadoff guys aren't power hitters. Look at Reyes, Bourn, Ellsbury, Figgins. You're wishing for guys that don't exist, well at least since Raines retired.

Craig Grebeck
05-03-2010, 12:33 AM
You tell me where we're going to get a leadoff guy with a good OBP for under $3M...

We don't pay for them, and can't develop them, so we are stuck with guys like Pods and Pierre, with plenty of steals, some hitting talent, but a lower OBP.



Where are these magical players who are good leadoff guys who steal bases and have power? The best leadoff guys aren't power hitters. Look at Reyes, Bourn, Ellsbury, Figgins. You're wishing for guys that don't exist, well at least since Raines retired.
Those are yours best. Those are not my best.

Tragg
05-03-2010, 10:29 AM
You tell me where we're going to get a leadoff guy with a good OBP for under $3M...

We don't pay for them, and can't develop them, so we are stuck with guys like Pods and Pierre, with plenty of steals, some hitting talent, but a lower OBP.


We're paying good money for Juan Pierre. We could get his NORMAL offensive production, without the steals, for league minimums. See Sweeney, - who (and I know I repeat myself) the genius in the dugout decided couldn't play, while at the same time, deeming jerry owens a ml starting center fielder.
There's scant little evidence that Guillen gives a whip about obp and there's a lot of evidence he doesn't (just look at the players he loves).

And look, if we are going to the "small ball" approach, as someone said in one of these threads, invest in an elite leadoff hitter. Instead of Peavy, Williams could have done that. Don't go small ball, but bring in players who can't get on base...all that leads to is runs scored by solo homers and lots of losses. Load the team up with players who can get on base. IN 2005, he brought in Pods and Iguchi ....they got on base.

JohnTucker0814
05-03-2010, 11:13 AM
We're paying good money for Juan Pierre. We could get his NORMAL offensive production, without the steals, for league minimums. See Sweeney, - who (and I know I repeat myself) the genius in the dugout decided couldn't play, while at the same time, deeming jerry owens a ml starting center fielder.
There's scant little evidence that Guillen gives a whip about obp and there's a lot of evidence he doesn't (just look at the players he loves).

And look, if we are going to the "small ball" approach, as someone said in one of these threads, invest in an elite leadoff hitter. Instead of Peavy, Williams could have done that. Don't go small ball, but bring in players who can't get on base...all that leads to is runs scored by solo homers and lots of losses. Load the team up with players who can get on base. IN 2005, he brought in Pods and Iguchi ....they got on base.

Pods - .352 OBP
Iguchi - .342 OBP

Pierre lowest career OBP was .330.

Teahen currently has a .342 OBP with a career low .235 BA.

Listen, the entire team is not hitting right now. You can't assume they are going to stay this bad all year. It's frustrating, but to say that we should have went and got a true lead off hitter instead of Peavy is not right. We have a true leadoff hitter in Pierre, he just isn't performing. Do you think KW and OG guessed Pods would outplay Pierre to this point? NO, Pods had a .299 OBP in 2007 for the Sox. He had a .322 OBP for COL in 2008. 2009 was a great year for Pods, however in July he had a .324 OBP and August he had .319 OBP. Pods was not the answer.