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TheBigHurt
06-17-2002, 01:19 PM
http://espn.go.com/magazine/geno_20020617.html

about how baseball could fix the game

raul12
06-17-2002, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by TheBigHurt
http://espn.go.com/magazine/geno_20020617.html

about how baseball could fix the game

i especially like the one about pete rose. i know that some will disagree with me, but you can't ignore the numbers he put up in his career. what he did wrt gambling was wrong, but c'mon, they've proven their point.

Randar68
06-17-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by raul12


i especially like the one about pete rose. i know that some will disagree with me, but you can't ignore the numbers he put up in his career. what he did wrt gambling was wrong, but c'mon, they've proven their point.

I don't disagree with you one bit, especially with the way they turn a blind eye to the doping and other rediculous acts that tarnish the game to the same extent.

TheBigHurt
06-17-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by raul12


i especially like the one about pete rose. i know that some will disagree with me, but you can't ignore the numbers he put up in his career. what he did wrt gambling was wrong, but c'mon, they've proven their point.


I think its unfair then Rose is banned for the game forever yet today everyone involved with MLB knows steriods is going on but they wont test.

Cheryl
06-17-2002, 02:07 PM
Apples and oranges. Pete Rose knew the rule, the rule says no gambling on baseball or you're out of the game. He broke the rule. He pays.

Not that I think anyone doing 'roids should be allowed to continue either. I don't know what the actual rule is on steroid use in baseball, but it's an illegal substance in the real world w/o a prescription and any player caught with it should be arrested.
If there isn't a baseball rule against it, there should be one written soon and enforced.

Ron Santo in the Hall? Right.

duke of dorwood
06-17-2002, 02:09 PM
:shammy

Wrong

raul12
06-17-2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
Apples and oranges. Pete Rose knew the rule, the rule says no gambling on baseball or you're out of the game. He broke the rule. He pays.


apples and oranges when you are looking at his playing career vs. his managing career. the man broke the record for hits in a career for crying out loud. what he did as a manager was wrong, but what he did as a player has never been done in the history of baseball.

Dadawg_77
06-17-2002, 02:56 PM
True, but Pete is his own worse enemy right now. If he wants to be let into the hall of fame before he passes, he needs to come clean. Baseball won't let him in till he does so.

TornLabrum
06-17-2002, 03:09 PM
Pete Rose violated the rule on gambling. It says that if you bet on baseball games, you are out of baseball permanently. That rule is posted in every major league clubhouse and has been for decades.

There is no rule on steroid use. That's why the big deal is being made over whether or not something should be done. Jose Canseco, who apparently now admits to steroid use, broke no rules, and neither has anyone else who has used or is currently using them.

Now, I'm not saying this is right, just what the rules are. Steroids should have been banned long ago by MLB. Apparently that's an issue that has to be negotiated with the MLBPA, so the players need to be convinced that the proposed banning is good for them in the long run. Maybe films of Lyle Alzedo might help.

:canseco

"How did you think I got this way?"

34rancher
06-17-2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
There is no rule on steroid use. That's why the big deal is being made over whether or not something should be done. Jose Canseco, who apparently now admits to steroid use, broke no rules, and neither has anyone else who has used or is currently using them.

Ummm. I beg to differ. There is a rule. It is called the laws of the United States. Last time I checked, they were illegal, unless otherwise prescribed. I would have to say that the laws of our country should take MAJOR presedece over the rules of MLB.

Randar68
06-17-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Pete Rose violated the rule on gambling. It says that if you bet on baseball games, you are out of baseball permanently. That rule is posted in every major league clubhouse and has been for decades.

There is no rule on steroid use. That's why the big deal is being made over whether or not something should be done. Jose Canseco, who apparently now admits to steroid use, broke no rules, and neither has anyone else who has used or is currently using them.

Now, I'm not saying this is right, just what the rules are. Steroids should have been banned long ago by MLB. Apparently that's an issue that has to be negotiated with the MLBPA, so the players need to be convinced that the proposed banning is good for them in the long run. Maybe films of Lyle Alzedo might help.

:canseco

"How did you think I got this way?"


Oh contraire, mon frere!

There is a written rule against performance enhancing drugs. However, penalties and enforcement are not described or practiced. It is enforced based upon the honor of the players, which is obviously no longer existent...

Tragg
06-17-2002, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by raul12


i especially like the one about pete rose. i know that some will disagree with me, but you can't ignore the numbers he put up in his career. what he did wrt gambling was wrong, but c'mon, they've proven their point.


Rose certainly was a hall of famer on the field (although he was an overrated ballplayer).

But what he did attacked the integrity, the essence, of baseball. He MUST show some remorse, or contrition before he is put into the Hall.
He still hasn't even admitted his misdeeds.

Randar68
06-17-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Tragg



Rose certainly was a hall of famer on the field (although he was an overrated ballplayer).

But what he did attacked the integrity, the essence, of baseball. He MUST show some remorse, or contrition before he is put into the Hall.
He still hasn't even admitted his misdeeds.

I'm sorry, how does doping affect the integrity of the game any less?

Even if Pete Rose actually bet on baseball, he only bet that he WOULD win. He was not throwing games to support his financial status as the Black Sox did.

In addition, all physical evidence ever collected by MLB was completely circumstantial and would never have held up in a court of law. His bookie had a conflict of interest in implicating Rose in the first place. And by all expert accounts, his books were cooked.

On top of all of that, Bart Giamatti lied to Rose and broke the agreement they signed just hours after he pledged to never implicate actual wrongdoing on Pete's part.

Pete will never get into the Hall as long as Bud and his pals are in charge. To them, it's personal. To them, the stress over the whole thing killed Bart. It has absolutely nothing to do with the integrity of the game or being the "right thing to do". It's a personal vendetta, plain and simple. It is only one of many reasons Bud Selig should never have been or continue to be the commissioner of Major League Baseball.

Dadawg_77
06-17-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by 34rancher


Ummm. I beg to differ. There is a rule. It is called the laws of the United States. Last time I checked, they were illegal, unless otherwise prescribed. I would have to say that the laws of our country should take MAJOR presedece over the rules of MLB.

But US Law is for the government to enforce not Major League Baseball. Baseball rules are what Commish should oversee and enforce, and thats it.

Paulwny
06-17-2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

Even if Pete Rose actually bet on baseball, he only bet that he WOULD win. He was not throwing games to support his financial status as the Black Sox did.


I agree, however he may not have used his best relevers in a close game prior to a game he bet on. Some players may have been given a day off so that they'd be well rested for a game he bet on. A starter may have had a turn pushed back for a game he bet on.
Rose may not have bet against his team but, he may not have given them the best chance to win games he didn't bet on.
That's if all the gambling talk is fact.

Tragg
06-17-2002, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


I'm sorry, how does doping affect the integrity of the game any less?



Doping? Doping what? Not sure what you are talking about.

Paul pointed out good points below how gambling ON your team can affect other games.

It's irrelevant whether it would be upheld in a court of law. "beyond a reasonable doubt" may be our criminal standard, but it isn't our civil standard and nothing says that the criminal standard needs to be the Hall's standard. I would argue it shouldn't be. My boss wouldn't use the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard to decide whether any misconduct I might cause warranted my dismissal.

And to completely be the skunk at the picnic, I consider him a marginal HOF player like Robin Young or, for pitchers, Nolan Ryan (.303 batting average, 160 homers in 24 seasons - longevity, but not what I would call greatness).

And still, no apology, no contrition. Nothing but arrogance from Rose.

Tragg
06-17-2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


And to completely be the skunk at the picnic, I consider him a marginal HOF player like Robin Young

EEEK - YOUNT

TornLabrum
06-18-2002, 12:21 AM
There is a written rule against performance enhancing drugs. However, penalties and enforcement are not described or practiced. It is enforced based upon the honor of the players, which is obviously no longer existent...

Let me put it another way. If there is no procedure for enforcing the rule and there is no procedure for implementing penalties for violations of the rule, the you have de facto NO RULE. That's why the owners and the MLBPA are going to have to decide whether to implement drug testing.