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mcm3312
04-26-2010, 12:28 PM
It seems to me like baseball managers in general are usually against the idea of altering the lineup to facilitate how the players are performing at the moment. Isn't the idea have the high "on base guys" at the start of the order and the "high average/power guys" in the middle, with those who are struggling at the bottom? Is the major concern over hurting the ego's of these multi-millionaires? We simply can't afford to lose games by giving the majority of at-bats to guys like Pierre, Quentin, and AJ while they struggle. Let them figure out their issues at the bottom of the order. It just doesn't seem logical to give more at bats to guys who are struggling.

In my world this would be our lineup this week. It would never be permanent and always open to adjustment based on performance.

1. Alex Rios CF
2. Mark Teahen 3B
3. Andrew Jones LF
4. Paul Konerko 1B
5. Gordon Beckham 2b
6. Carlos Quentin RF
7. Juan Pierre DH
8. Alexei Ramirez SS
9. AJ Pierzinski C

Nelfox02
04-26-2010, 12:35 PM
In my world this would be our lineup this week. It would never be permanent and always open to adjustment based on performance.

1. Alex Rios CF
2. Mark Teahen 3B
3. Andrew Jones LF
4. Paul Konerko 1B
5. Gordon Beckham 2b
6. Carlos Quentin RF
7. Juan Pierre DH
8. Alexei Ramirez SS
9. AJ Pierzinski C


I m with you except for Rios at the lead off, put him at 5 Pierre was here to lead off, its his job, has he done great so far? no but dont pull that plug just yet Bacon at 7

anyone else up for seeing what Teahen can do with the 2 hole and seeing if moving in the line up can jumpstart Beckham?

mcfish
04-26-2010, 12:37 PM
Don't give Ozzie any ideas.

SephClone89
04-26-2010, 12:43 PM
It seems to me like baseball managers in general are usually against the idea of altering the lineup

:scratch:

Have you watched the 2010 White Sox?

WhiteSoxFTW
04-26-2010, 01:15 PM
:scratch:

Have you watched the 2010 White Sox?

That was my thoughts. We are talking about Ozzie Guillen's lineups here, lol. I agree with the OP that maybe something should be done with the lineup since Rios and Teahen are hitting pretty well. Ozzie already moved Jones up, which I thought was great.


mcm3312: Your lineup is RLRRRRLRL. Ozzie tends to like to split up the Right and left-handers up a little more. I think the only reason AJ is still batting high in Ozzie's order is b/c he is the only LH "power" bat they have. I would personally move Teahen up and move AJ down b/c Teahen has shown his power the last few weeks, and he is getting extra-base hits lately. Ozzie also likes to have a semi-fast guy in the 9 spot. Based on the way the team is going, I like:

Pierre (L)
Rios (R)
Jones (R)
Konerko (R)
Teahen (L)
Beckham (R)
Quentin (R)
AJ (L)
Ramirez (R)

It moves Rios and Teahen up, moves AJ and Quentin down, and moves Beckham down to 6th. Maybe Beckham could figure his **** out a little further down.

TDog
04-26-2010, 01:28 PM
:scratch:

Have you watched the 2010 White Sox?

Yes, and batting Beckham makes no sense, for example, based on the way he has performed this year -- based on the way he has performed in his career after moving to the No. 2 spot.

The reason managers don't radically shift lineups around based on how players might be performing at a given time is that most believe that different spots in the order have different roles. Guilen sees Pierre suited for leadoff because of his speed and because he historically has been a very good hitter. Konerko bats cleanup because of his power. Jones has been hitting third lately (there's a change based on recent performance) because he hits well for average as well as power. Ramirez hits ninth because he has speed and the second time through the lineup could serve as sort of a secondary leadoff man.

Shifting the order in which people hit isn't going to help the White Sox offense dramatically. Moving a guy from 7 to 2 might give him one more at bat in the game. The last three days, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the batting order, considering the right guys were up in the last inning.

There is a school of thought that the batting order should be determined in descending order based on players' on-base percentages. But thee are a lot of odd ideas floating around.

harwar
04-26-2010, 01:42 PM
Pierre (L)
Rios (R)
Jones (R)
Konerko (R)
Teahen (L)
Beckham (R)
Quentin (R)
AJ (L)
Ramirez (R)

It moves Rios and Teahen up, moves AJ and Quentin down, and moves Beckham down to 6th. Maybe Beckham could figure his **** out a little further down.

yea, i like this one .. and then when Beckham starts to hit(hopefully) like he did last year, you can move him up ..

JC456
04-26-2010, 01:49 PM
yea, i like this one .. and then when Beckham starts to hit(hopefully) like he did last year, you can move him up ..

You forget that in each position is a certain discipline. i.e., when Pierre is on he will steal, do you want to take pitches away from a Rios? I think not. Ozzie seems to understand who needs to be where and it's getting figured out. Also, what about speed and where you want that speed. It isn't cut and dry like you want it to be.

We all appreciate your points, but given you're not taking into account the roles per slot, then your lineup is set to fail.

WhiteSoxFTW
04-26-2010, 01:59 PM
You forget that in each position is a certain discipline. i.e., when Pierre is on he will steal, do you want to take pitches away from a Rios? I think not. Ozzie seems to understand who needs to be where and it's getting figured out. Also, what about speed and where you want that speed. It isn't cut and dry like you want it to be.

We all appreciate your points, but given you're not taking into account the roles per slot, then your lineup is set to fail.

You are taking those same pitches away from Beckham. Has Beckham struggled in the 2 spot this year? I think, yes. Could there be more pressure on him in that spot vs. hitting 6th? I think, yes. Might a veteran guy like Rios do a little better at the plate with Pierre doing his thing? Quite possibly, yes.

I wasn't saying my theoretical lineup was guaranteed better, but based on the current status of this year's team, I think it would perform a little better. Aren't we all just armchair managers here?

KMcMahon817
04-26-2010, 02:42 PM
That was my thoughts. We are talking about Ozzie Guillen's lineups here, lol. I agree with the OP that maybe something should be done with the lineup since Rios and Teahen are hitting pretty well. Ozzie already moved Jones up, which I thought was great.


mcm3312: Your lineup is RLRRRRLRL. Ozzie tends to like to split up the Right and left-handers up a little more. I think the only reason AJ is still batting high in Ozzie's order is b/c he is the only LH "power" bat they have. I would personally move Teahen up and move AJ down b/c Teahen has shown his power the last few weeks, and he is getting extra-base hits lately. Ozzie also likes to have a semi-fast guy in the 9 spot. Based on the way the team is going, I like:

Pierre (L)
Rios (R)
Jones (R)
Konerko (R)
Teahen (L)
Beckham (R)
Quentin (R)
AJ (L)
Ramirez (R)

It moves Rios and Teahen up, moves AJ and Quentin down, and moves Beckham down to 6th. Maybe Beckham could figure his **** out a little further down.

I would avoid messing with Rios by putting him in the 2 hole. He has demonstrated that he isn't the strongest of mental players, and I don't know if he can handle the two hole. It's just not worth it, keep him at 5-7 and he will keep performing. I would probably go with Teahen or AJ in the two hole, even though AJ is really struggling.

JC456
04-26-2010, 03:34 PM
You are taking those same pitches away from Beckham. Has Beckham struggled in the 2 spot this year? I think, yes. Could there be more pressure on him in that spot vs. hitting 6th? I think, yes. Might a veteran guy like Rios do a little better at the plate with Pierre doing his thing? Quite possibly, yes.

I wasn't saying my theoretical lineup was guaranteed better, but based on the current status of this year's team, I think it would perform a little better. Aren't we all just armchair managers here?

Beckham is the best #2 in the lineup. He can hit behind the runner better than anyone in the lineup today. Rios is a pure pull hitter and is more of a power guy.Him hittting where he is hitting at right now is perfect for him. check out his stats since that move.

Ramirez is the biggest concern. He keeps coming up with runners in scoring position and he is not getting the job done. He came through on Saturday, but failed miserably yesterday with Teahan at second and no outs. Struck out and it was not a good attempt to move the runner over which was his only job to succeed in that at bat, he never even touched the ball on four pitches.

It may be time to send him down and let Vizguel play short. In fact he may even be good in the 2 hole.

TDog
04-26-2010, 04:24 PM
Beckham is the best #2 in the lineup. He can hit behind the runner better than anyone in the lineup today. Rios is a pure pull hitter and is more of a power guy.Him hittting where he is hitting at right now is perfect for him. check out his stats since that move.

Ramirez is the biggest concern. He keeps coming up with runners in scoring position and he is not getting the job done. He came through on Saturday, but failed miserably yesterday with Teahan at second and no outs. Struck out and it was not a good attempt to move the runner over which was his only job to succeed in that at bat, he never even touched the ball on four pitches.

It may be time to send him down and let Vizguel play short. In fact he may even be good in the 2 hole.

The problem is, there is no evidence this year that Beckham is the best No. 2 hitter in the lineup because he fails to hit behind the runner as much as anyone on the team.

And if you're complaining about Ramirez hitting with runners in scoring position, you should be disgusted with Beckham's failures with runners in scoring position. Ramirez has twice as many RBIs with runners in scoring position. Ramirez is hitting .273 with one fewer at bat than Beckham, who is hitting .167 in that situation. And with a runner on third and less than two outs, Beckham has had four at bats without driving in any of the runners. Ramirez has been up once in that situation and he drove that run in with a single.

I was critical in the postgame thread of Ramirez failing to advance the runner from second base. I think the criticism was justified. True, that was the only time he struck out with a runner on second this season, but the White Sox badly needed him to advance the runner in that situation.

But I don't understand how Beckham can get such a pass from people who are so quick to be critical of Ramirez.

BRDSR
04-26-2010, 06:29 PM
It seems to me like baseball managers in general are usually against the idea of altering the lineup to facilitate how the players are performing at the moment.

This is because, statistically speaking, on any given day a player is more likely to conform to his career averages than to conform to what he did yesterday. Fans tend to overvalue recent history, especially at the beginning of a season when the entire season's stats are all recent. Managers recognize that the law of averages makes recent trends less predictive.

That said, I wouldn't be against putting AJ in the 9-hole for awhile. He looks absolutely clueless at the plate.

mcm3312
04-26-2010, 11:00 PM
This is because, statistically speaking, on any given day a player is more likely to conform to his career averages than to conform to what he did yesterday. Fans tend to overvalue recent history, especially at the beginning of a season when the entire season's stats are all recent. Managers recognize that the law of averages makes recent trends less predictive.

That said, I wouldn't be against putting AJ in the 9-hole for awhile. He looks absolutely clueless at the plate.

I don't agree with your assessment of long term vs. short term statistics at all. Sure there's a larger sample size with career statistics, but every player in baseball goes through ups and downs (Even Pujols!!), and STATISTICALLY speaking, if a manager really broke down trends, slumps, and hot streaks, they could improve their teams productivity by placing the players most likely to succeed in the short term in the correct lineup slot.

I do however agree with you on AJ. He looks pretty terrible right now

JC456
04-27-2010, 10:28 AM
The problem is, there is no evidence this year that Beckham is the best No. 2 hitter in the lineup because he fails to hit behind the runner as much as anyone on the team.

And if you're complaining about Ramirez hitting with runners in scoring position, you should be disgusted with Beckham's failures with runners in scoring position. Ramirez has twice as many RBIs with runners in scoring position. Ramirez is hitting .273 with one fewer at bat than Beckham, who is hitting .167 in that situation. And with a runner on third and less than two outs, Beckham has had four at bats without driving in any of the runners. Ramirez has been up once in that situation and he drove that run in with a single.

I was critical in the postgame thread of Ramirez failing to advance the runner from second base. I think the criticism was justified. True, that was the only time he struck out with a runner on second this season, but the White Sox badly needed him to advance the runner in that situation.

But I don't understand how Beckham can get such a pass from people who are so quick to be critical of Ramirez.

Look, I don't think anyone deserves a pass for leaving runners or moving runners. I know that when asked, Becham layed down two bunts, right wrong or whatever, he did that and moved the runner along. The two hole is not an RBI position it is a setup position, and again Beckham is letting the pitches go to allow Pierre or whoever to attempt to steal. That is difficult to do, and as a rookie I will cut him some slack for at least the first quarter of the season before criticizing him.

jabrch
04-27-2010, 10:41 AM
I don't agree with your assessment of long term vs. short term statistics at all. Sure there's a larger sample size with career statistics, but every player in baseball goes through ups and downs (Even Pujols!!), and STATISTICALLY speaking, if a manager really broke down trends, slumps, and hot streaks, they could improve their teams productivity by placing the players most likely to succeed in the short term in the correct lineup slot.

I do however agree with you on AJ. He looks pretty terrible right now


Chasing the hottest player is similar to chasing a hot stock/fund. You usually can't stay out in front enough, and you have a good chance of missing the turns on both sides.

I'd rather put together a lineup that makes sense based on everything we know rather than on a short term trend line. That's just me - I see the other side as well. I just don't agree.

BRDSR
04-27-2010, 06:21 PM
Chasing the hottest player is similar to chasing a hot stock/fund. You usually can't stay out in front enough, and you have a good chance of missing the turns on both sides.

I'd rather put together a lineup that makes sense based on everything we know rather than on a short term trend line. That's just me - I see the other side as well. I just don't agree.

I agree with this, but also with mcm for situations like AJ. With AJ, it's not that the ball's not finding green or that he's just run into three straight starting pitchers that are really tough for him. He's consistently taking a poor approach to his at-bats, which results in poor swings, and the worst part is that it really seems to have gotten into his head. I'd move him down in the order based on his recent trend, but only because its clear to anyone who knows hitting even a little that he's in a fundamentals slump.

I would only do it very rarely.

getonbckthr
04-27-2010, 06:36 PM
If I got to tinker it would go:
1) Pierre DH
2) AJ C
3) Jones RF
4) Konerko 1B
5) Rios CF
6) Teahen 3B
7) Quentin LF
8) Ramirez SS
9) Beckham 2B
----------------------------
Reasoning. The threat of Pierre stealing and Jones' bat would mean alot more fastballs for AJ which could break his funk. Quentin 7th to take some pressure off. Beckham 9th as a 2nd leadoff hitter, another RBI chance for Jones and helps AJ that much more to get more fast balls.

MarySwiss
04-27-2010, 06:51 PM
If I got to tinker it would go:
1) Pierre DH
2) AJ C
3) Jones RF
4) Konerko 1B
5) Rios CF
6) Teahen 3B
7) Quentin LF
8) Ramirez SS
9) Beckham 2B
----------------------------
Reasoning. The threat of Pierre stealing and Jones' bat would mean alot more fastballs for AJ which could break his funk. Quentin 7th to take some pressure off. Beckham 9th as a 2nd leadoff hitter, another RBI chance for Jones and helps AJ that much more to get more fast balls.

Bkcthr: My initial reaction was "are you out of your ****ing mind?" Then I read your reasoning. Not bad!