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View Full Version : There is No Statistical Evidence that Walker is the Problem


TomBradley72
04-23-2010, 12:11 PM
Greg Walker has been the White Sox hitting coach for 7+ seasons (beginning in 2003), so there is a huge sample of stats to see if hitters perform at a lower level with Walker as their hitting coach.

I ran the White Sox hitting stats for the 2003-2009 seasons combined, I see no evidence that hitters perform at a lower level under Walker than they have for other teams in their career or how we would expect them to perform.

(If this link doesn't work, you run the stats yourself at MLB.com, historical stats, White Sox 2003-2009)

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/stats/historical/player_stats.jsp?statType=1&teamPosCode=all&HS=true&timeFrame=1&c_id=cws&statSet1=1&sitSplit=&venueID=&section1=1&baseballScope=CHA&timeSubFrame=2003&timeSubFrame=2004&timeSubFrame=2005&timeSubFrame=2006&timeSubFrame=2007&timeSubFrame=2008&timeSubFrame=2009&&sortByStat=AVG

doublem23
04-23-2010, 12:13 PM
We should still fire him.

soltrain21
04-23-2010, 12:16 PM
Somtimes changes have to be made just to give the team a kick in the ass.

palehozenychicty
04-23-2010, 12:27 PM
The stats may not signify anything, but the offense outside of home runs, has rarely been consistent with him at the helm. Then again, the talent hasn't always been up to par.

masloan
04-23-2010, 12:28 PM
Greg Walker has been the White Sox hitting coach for 7+ seasons (beginning in 2003), so there is a huge sample of stats to see if hitters perform at a lower level with Walker as their hitting coach.

I ran the White Sox hitting stats for the 2003-2009 seasons combined, I see no evidence that hitters perform at a lower level under Walker than they have for other teams in their career or how we would expect them to perform.

(If this link doesn't work, you run the stats yourself at MLB.com, historical stats, White Sox 2003-2009)

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/stats/historical/player_stats.jsp?statType=1&teamPosCode=all&HS=true&timeFrame=1&c_id=cws&statSet1=1&sitSplit=&venueID=&section1=1&baseballScope=CHA&timeSubFrame=2003&timeSubFrame=2004&timeSubFrame=2005&timeSubFrame=2006&timeSubFrame=2007&timeSubFrame=2008&timeSubFrame=2009&&sortByStat=AVG

But if the offense is bad it must mean Walker is doing a bad job!

doublem23
04-23-2010, 12:30 PM
But if the offense is bad it must mean Walker is doing a bad job!

Thank you, we finally agree.

soltrain21
04-23-2010, 12:31 PM
But if the offense is bad it must mean Walker is doing a bad job!

I appreciate you posting here, Mr. Walker - but sometimes a team just needs a change. Maybe it will kick start a few of the guys. Who knows?

What is the difference between me saying that they need to fire him to kick start somebody and other people saying, "It's way too early - these guys will start hitting."

SI1020
04-23-2010, 12:38 PM
These are just stats without any comparison or context. I'm just saying. Maybe you do have a point but I can't tell from this. Also it appears to me that the stats for Carl Everett and Alex Cintron are incomplete. Based on a glance through on the stats. If I'm wrong or missed something please correct me.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 12:41 PM
These are just stats without any comparison or context. I'm just saying. Maybe you do have a point but I can't tell from this. Also it appears to me that the stats for Carl Everett and Alex Cintron are imcomplete. Based on a glance through on the stats. If I'm wrong or missed something please correct me.

They are definitely incomplete, Crazy Carl appeared in 251 G for the Sox between 2003-2005. That only lists the 73 G he played in 2003. :dunno:

Hartman
04-23-2010, 12:52 PM
It's not totally Walker's fault, but things need to change. A new energy needs to be infused into this locker room. When coaches get fired, it's not always their fault, but the coach is the fall guy.

Let's start with Walker first. Ozzie may need to be next.

Nellie_Fox
04-23-2010, 12:57 PM
Let's start with Walker first. Ozzie may need to be next.It cracks me up when you guys talk like we have the power to decide.

Madvora
04-23-2010, 01:01 PM
I don't follow other teams, but it can't be as common as it is here to be stymied by every single first time pitcher this team sees. Preparation for opposing pitchers is something the hitting coach should handle. I understand that there isn't a lot of tape on rookies, but other teams have to be doing something to be getting by better than us.

veeter
04-23-2010, 01:24 PM
Possible reasons the Sox are struggling:

Juan Pierre- New league, showing signs of coming out of it.
Gordon Beckham- Teams have learned his holes, hasn't adjusted yet.
Carlos Quentin- Total head case, slow to recover from slumps because
he's so down on himself.
Paul Konerko- Actually production is good, looks to have solid year.
Alex Rios- Not slumping at all, been hitting rockets since opening day.
AJ- Impending contract/trade situation bothering him? Looks lost.
Mark Teahen- Hitting up to my expectations. He's an average player.
Andrew Jones- Doing well. I think he's been a bright spot.
Alexei Ramirez- He hits dumb, he fields dumb, he's a dumb player.
Mark Kotsay- Best days are behind him.

I just think Walker can only do so much. Should he be fired? Hey, any spark is fine with me. But I can't pin this on him.

kufram
04-23-2010, 02:24 PM
I'm not anyone's apologist but firing Greg Walker is not going to solve the offensive woes. I suppose it will satisfy some people's bloodlust but that will be very temporary and they will soon call for more.

There is something I would like to ask of Mr. Ranger and other knowledgable posters. I wonder if the real problem is that mangagement has tried, with good intentions, to keep contending and sort of re-tool at the same time. Would it be better to actually rebuild. I'm not even sure about this myself because I'm a fan first and last. For example, I'd hate to see Paul Konerko in another uniform. I know it's a business and all but it ain't a business to me.

I like that people stay in the organization. I like that coaches used to play for this team. The pressure to win is so great that people will demand anything to achieve short term success.

JC456
04-23-2010, 03:42 PM
I'm not anyone's apologist but firing Greg Walker is not going to solve the offensive woes. I suppose it will satisfy some people's bloodlust but that will be very temporary and they will soon call for more.

There is something I would like to ask of Mr. Ranger and other knowledgable posters. I wonder if the real problem is that mangagement has tried, with good intentions, to keep contending and sort of re-tool at the same time. Would it be better to actually rebuild. I'm not even sure about this myself because I'm a fan first and last. For example, I'd hate to see Paul Konerko in another uniform. I know it's a business and all but it ain't a business to me.

I like that people stay in the organization. I like that coaches used to play for this team. The pressure to win is so great that people will demand anything to achieve short term success.

How would you know it won't solve the offensive woes?

happydude
04-23-2010, 04:13 PM
Statistics, in and of themselves, support arguments; they rarely prove or disprove them. In the case of the many different players who have suited up for the Sox over the years there are probably just too many other variables tied to performance outside of their stats to use stats as the sole means to evaluate Walker.

Frankly, I don't think it requires intensive consideration. The bottom line is that over an extended time frame the offense has performed poorly. When things aren't going well people begin to demand a scalp; whether being handed said scalp is actually fair or not is, unfortunately, usually the last thing we consider.

If Walker is sacrificed the cries will die down for a short time and, if things don't markedly improve, folks will begin to demand the head of Guillen, after that, Williams. That's just how people are and those guys know it as well as anyone else; coaches and management are hired to be fired.

Huisj
04-23-2010, 06:27 PM
They are definitely incomplete, Crazy Carl appeared in 251 G for the Sox between 2003-2005. That only lists the 73 G he played in 2003. :dunno:

They are divided up by position for each player. So, some of his stats are listed for OF, and some are listed for DH. Same thing with lots of guys--Ozuna, Uribe, Ramirez, heck tons of people are on there multiple times for the different positions they played.

Hartman
04-23-2010, 06:45 PM
I don't follow other teams, but it can't be as common as it is here to be stymied by every single first time pitcher this team sees. Preparation for opposing pitchers is something the hitting coach should handle. I understand that there isn't a lot of tape on rookies, but other teams have to be doing something to be getting by better than us.

And it's been like that for YEARS. We're not just talking about a couple months or even a single season, this has been a persistent problem, and definite pattern. Who's fault is that? Probably a combination of several things, but the hitting coach's job is to prepare the hitters, and these hitters are not prepared.

A. Cavatica
04-23-2010, 07:35 PM
Juan Pierre- Best days are behind him.
Gordon Beckham- Teams have learned his holes, hasn't adjusted yet.
Carlos Quentin- A good hitting coach would fix him.
Paul Konerko- Best days are behind him.
Alex Rios- Not slumping at all, been hitting rockets since opening day.
AJ- Best days are behind him.
Mark Teahen- Hitting up to my expectations. He's an average player.
Andruw Jones- Doing well. I think he's been a bright spot.
Alexei Ramirez- He hits dumb, he fields dumb, he's a dumb player.
Mark Kotsay- Best days are behind him.

veeter
04-23-2010, 08:18 PM
Juan Pierre- Best days are behind him.
Gordon Beckham- Teams have learned his holes, hasn't adjusted yet.
Carlos Quentin- A good hitting coach would fix him.
Paul Konerko- Best days are behind him.
Alex Rios- Not slumping at all, been hitting rockets since opening day.
AJ- Best days are behind him.
Mark Teahen- Hitting up to my expectations. He's an average player.
Andruw Jones- Doing well. I think he's been a bright spot.
Alexei Ramirez- He hits dumb, he fields dumb, he's a dumb player.
Mark Kotsay- Best days are behind him.Man, I hope your wrong.

Zelemont
04-23-2010, 08:44 PM
Hey, look at what happened when the Cubs blamed Dusty Baker for their problems. They fired him, hired Lou Pinella, and the next year they went on to win the world series! :redneck

OK, maybe that last part isn't accurate, but they did win two division titles in a row and perhaps more importantly, the fans were pleased and didn't have to suffer another season watching the same guy make the same bad calls.

As fans, we definitely don't get to make the calls, and if the GM did put a lot of weight into our opinions we would probably have an even bigger mess, but at some point as the customers of the organization they should consider what the majority of us have been saying for years now. The offense is consistently inconsistent, so get somebody else in there. Period. It seems like '05 made these guys untouchable. "well, he is doing a **** job, but he got us a world series half a decade ago!"

soxinem1
04-23-2010, 08:54 PM
Somtimes changes have to be made just to give the team a kick in the ass.

Try benching the regulars for a week. All these guys have to do his perform to their career averages and they will be a decent offensive team.

As a player Walker had one of the best looking LH swings in the game. While he never reached the level many expected, he had several nice seasons until the seizure in 1988, so as a career is concerned, Walker's stats are better than almost any current hitting coach in MLB.

Thus, I think he knows what he's talking about mechanically, and it is up to these players to own up for their own performance and produce.

I'd like to know why Walker is even considered a scapegoat? After all, should he get all the credit for Andruw Jones and Alex Rios being the only guys hitting now? No, because Jones and Rios are the ones hitting.

After this team scored nearly 1,000 runs in Y2K, they fire the hitting coach the next season and burn through three more before Walker, and nothing changes. These all or nothing offensive teams have not stopped, sans 2005 (and even then they hit 200 HR without scoring a lot of runs), regardless of the manager, coaches, or make up of the roster.

Maybe it is time to look at the organization and see what, if any, hitting philosophy is in place, because fundamentally, it is not there.

TomBradley72
04-24-2010, 10:22 AM
Over Walker's tenture the White Sox are middle of the pack in the American League for team stats: run scored and OPS, lower third for OBP.

If there's any problem with our offense, it's been OBP over the long run....I'd attribute that more to roster make up (i.e. KW) than I would to the hitting coach.