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Dub25
04-22-2010, 11:18 PM
I know you post here so instead of waiting to get through to a post game show I figured I would try on WSI.

I listened to a caller tonight who had great points about the numbers not lying when it comes to the offense. As expected, you disagreed and gave your tired excuses about how it is not the coaches fault. While I agree that the players need to be held accountable, sometimes, even veterans, need some help. Over Walker's tenure I've heard him in interviews say, "oh, he's been in the big leagues for awhile so I don't bother to mess with him." Oh really Greg, no insight what so ever?

This team this year has at least 5 regular offensive players who have not been on this team for a full year but yet they have fallen into the same problems that past teams have. That would be below career averages and making pitchers they have never seen before look like Cy Young. Yet you say the hitting coach is responsible for players getting ready with flips and cage work before the game. And getting their information about the opposing pitcher which you say the information is correct. How do you know this is correct? Are you with Walker when he is breaking down video... if he does that... or breaking down scouting reports? Just because Walker puts in extra work does not make him right. Obviously he is not right because the numbers don't lie and like I said before, when they face a pitcher they have never seen, forget about it, game over.

If a hitting coach is not as important as you seem to think they are then why did the Cubs go out and pay big money for Rudy Jaramillo? Don't even bother to point out that they are not hitting because they have pretty much the same group that has hit in the past. With that track record I would say it is a slump as opposed to Walker's track record which indicates that the Sox offense will be crap.

Then in tonight's post game you talked about how the Sox have had good pitching. Hmmm... probably has nothing to do with Cooper, right? Nevermind he has gotten through to the likes of Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Gavin Floyd, DJ Carrasco, and Jose Contreras. Those are just names that come to mind quickly. But hey, he is just a guy that goes over video and scouting reports and passes on information. Maybe is info is better than what Walker's is to the hitters?

Oh heck, what do I know? I'm just a fan who spends his money on the team rather than earning a paycheck from them wheather it is from them or in-directly from The Score. I know you like to point out that Walker is a nice guy so maybe that is why you don't want to rip him but don't talk to us like Bernsy and say we are wrong and don't want to listen when everything suggests otherwise.

DumpJerry
04-22-2010, 11:24 PM
I, too, hate paragraphs. Highly overrated.

GoGoCrede
04-22-2010, 11:25 PM
I, too, hate paragraphs. Highly overrated.

Maybe I'm just tired, but my eyes totally glossed over the paragraph, since it had no breaks. Couldn't read a word.

Dub25
04-22-2010, 11:25 PM
I, too, hate paragraphs. Highly overrated.

So give me a F like my english teachers did.

DumpJerry
04-22-2010, 11:26 PM
Maybe I'm just tired, but my eyes totally glossed over the paragraph, since it had no breaks. Couldn't read a word.
That's ok. You're not Rongey. It was meant for him.

Dub25
04-22-2010, 11:26 PM
Maybe I'm just tired, but my eyes totally glossed over the paragraph, since it had no breaks. Couldn't read a word.

You too. Give me a F.

Lip Man 1
04-22-2010, 11:27 PM
Dub. I wanted to read what you had to say but I just couldn't, things just ran together.

Not trying to rag on you, I simply couldn't get through it.

Lip

VMSNS
04-22-2010, 11:28 PM
So give me a F like my english teachers did.

http://www.vinceleste.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/image-shadow/cache/3c7f69fe2c8db2974fff230056c8572b.jpg

Dub25
04-22-2010, 11:28 PM
That's ok. You're not Rongey. It was meant for him.

I forgot, I hang out with the mensa group here. So sorry to make people read more than a few sentences.

GoGoCrede
04-22-2010, 11:29 PM
Dub. I wanted to read what you had to say but I just couldn't, things just ran together.

Not trying to rag on you, I simply couldn't get through it.

Lip

This. I'm sure you had valid points in your post, Dub.

Athrun
04-22-2010, 11:30 PM
I forgot, I hang out with the mensa group here. So sorry to make people read more than a few sentences.
It's not the length, its the text blob.

GoGoCrede
04-22-2010, 11:30 PM
I forgot, I hang out with the mensa group here. So sorry to make people read more than a few sentences.

Couldn't you just PM Ranger, then? :?:

Dub25
04-22-2010, 11:32 PM
Couldn't you just PM Ranger, then? :?:

I did since I figured this would end up in the Roadhouse.

EdHerman12
04-22-2010, 11:41 PM
It's good to see someone tell the truth here. Great post dub..I didn't have any problem reading it...I just happened to catch that post game show, tonight which I usually don't listen to,and he still defends the Coaching staff to the end. He's not going to bite the hand that feeds him...and we all know that Ranger so you just keep that positive spin going Chris...you're truly the King Pollyanna!

PhillipsBubba
04-23-2010, 12:11 AM
Chris...you're truly the King Pollyanna!

Hell, I thought those that criticized CR risked banishment:o:

Ranger
04-23-2010, 12:13 AM
Ed, if you think that's what I am, then I summarily dismiss you because you clearly hear what you want to hear. Any logical person that listens regularly, knows that I am not what you say I am.

Now, here's my response to Dub:

I'm sorry this offends you, but I'm just telling you how it is. It's one of the most misunderstood positions in sports and I don't know how else to put it. Like I said, you ever wonder why nobody that covers the team or covers baseball ever says he should be to blame and why the only people that do say that are outside observers? When's the last time you've seen a baseball writer suggest that he should be fired? All anyone has ever said is that it's possible his job could be in danger. Nobody within the game in any capacity thinks it's his fault.

First of all, Walker has never said, "I don't mess with them." But what he has said is that he lets new players do their thing for while before he intervenes.

Second, when it comes to mechanics, he can tell you exactly what's wrong with every guy that has a mechanical flaw. And he can tell you in a matter of seconds. Furthermore, the players will tell you that they know exactly what is wrong with them though they sometiems can't seem to get a handle on it for themselves.

And yes, the information is correct. And the reason I know that is because all teams have pretty much the same information. There really aren't a ton of surprises.

Why did the Cubs go get Jaramillo? Well, isn't it obvious? Jim Hendry isn't exactly on safe ground with new management and just as hitting coaches are fired as scapegoats, hitting coaches can be hired so that the team appears to be proactive in fixing whatever problems exist. It's the same as throwing ridiculous money at Soriano: the appearance of making a big splash during an offseason is enough to buy time for your own job.

Working with pitchers is completely different than working with hitters, as people in the game will tell you. Part of the reason being that hitting is a two part process: first, you have to get the mechanics right. Then after you've done that, you have to worry about what the pitcher is throwing and worry about recognizing those pitches. Not to mention the mental aspect of just being comfortable. While pitching may come down to a simple mechanical adjustment (much like hitting) the difference is that the pitcher is in complete control of his delivery and is in control of when he throws. That means he can be deliberate in his delivery of the ball becuase he throws it when he wants to. Hitting is a split second reaction and it's much tougher to simplify for the player.

Like it or not, it's the basic truth. People want a quick fix but there just isn't one.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 12:18 AM
Hell, I thought those that criticized CR risked banishment:o:

We have about 15 staff members, we can take care of the boards on our own, thanks. If you have serious problems with someone's post, you can either report it or contact a moderator in a PM. Calling someone out in public... Don't do that.

Nellie_Fox
04-23-2010, 12:19 AM
Hell, I thought those that criticized CR risked banishment:o:Actually, we allow more slack to those who get personal with their criticism of Ranger than we do between other posters, because we know that Ranger is a "public figure" who takes on callers on the air, so he can handle it here. There have already been several posts in this thread that would not be tolerated if directed toward any other poster, and nothing was done. But we won't allow anyone to abuse him; he's still a WSI poster.

PhillipsBubba
04-23-2010, 12:33 AM
We have about 15 staff members, we can take care of the boards on our own, thanks. If you have serious problems with someone's post, you can either report it or contact a moderator in a PM. Calling someone out in public... Don't do that.

Oh take a pill, will ya...

I should have posted it this way...


Hell, I thought those that criticized CR risked banishment:o:

twinsuck
04-23-2010, 12:34 AM
so the hitting coach isn't the problem and the advanced scouting isn't the problem so what the hell is???? Obviously something is wrong with the hitting and someone needs to help them, the hitting coach and he's not. I don't understand him defending Walker so much, he's obviously not doing his job very well because the hitting is horrible. He can say whatever about knowing within seconds that a player has a mechanical flaw, but is that translating into the players hitting??? no.

PhillipsBubba
04-23-2010, 12:36 AM
Ed, if you think that's what I am, then I summarily dismiss you because you clearly hear what you want to hear. Any logical person that listens regularly, knows that I am not what you say I am.

Now, here's my response to Dub:

I'm sorry this offends you, but I'm just telling you how it is. It's one of the most misunderstood positions in sports and I don't know how else to put it. Like I said, you ever wonder why nobody that covers the team or covers baseball ever says he should be to blame and why the only people that do say that are outside observers? When's the last time you've seen a baseball writer suggest that he should be fired? All anyone has ever said is that it's possible his job could be in danger. Nobody within the game in any capacity thinks it's his fault.

First of all, Walker has never said, "I don't mess with them." But what he has said is that he lets new players do their thing for while before he intervenes.

Second, when it comes to mechanics, he can tell you exactly what's wrong with every guy that has a mechanical flaw. And he can tell you in a matter of seconds. Furthermore, the players will tell you that they know exactly what is wrong with them though they sometiems can't seem to get a handle on it for themselves.

And yes, the information is correct. And the reason I know that is because all teams have pretty much the same information. There really aren't a ton of surprises.

Why did the Cubs go get Jaramillo? Well, isn't it obvious? Jim Hendry isn't exactly on safe ground with new management and just as hitting coaches are fired as scapegoats, hitting coaches can be hired so that the team appears to be proactive in fixing whatever problems exist. It's the same as throwing ridiculous money at Soriano: the appearance of making a big splash during an offseason is enough to buy time for your own job.

Working with pitchers is completely different than working with hitters, as people in the game will tell you. Part of the reason being that hitting is a two part process: first, you have to get the mechanics right. Then after you've done that, you have to worry about what the pitcher is throwing and worry about recognizing those pitches. Not to mention the mental aspect of just being comfortable. While pitching may come down to a simple mechanical adjustment (much like hitting) the difference is that the pitcher is in complete control of his delivery and is in control of when he throws. That means he can be deliberate in his delivery of the ball becuase he throws it when he wants to. Hitting is a split second reaction and it's much tougher to simplify for the player.

Like it or not, it's the basic truth. People want a quick fix but there just isn't one.

Too many words and the Sox still suck!

doublem23
04-23-2010, 12:40 AM
Oh take a pill, will ya...

I should have posted it this way...


Hell, I thought those that criticized CR risked banishment:o:

It never ceases to amaze me how many people get bent out of shape when their post is misinterpreted because they didn't use teal and then know we use teal for that very reason.

BainesHOF
04-23-2010, 01:01 AM
Cooper deserves credit, but Walker doesn't deserve any blame? That's ridiculous. You can't have it both ways.

Of course Walker needs to go at this point, but he isn't the only one. This team needs a major shakeup beyond firing an ineffective hitting coach. It's become an ongoing embarrassment.

voodoochile
04-23-2010, 01:02 AM
Too many words and the Sox still suck!

Yes yes... why bother reading a well thought out and presented opposite viewpoint. You've got your soundbite and that's enough. No need to actually try to understand the issues that actually are going on or try to figure out how to fix it in any other way than the one you have already accepted as the only solution.

Well done...

er...

Well done...:rolleyes:

pudge
04-23-2010, 01:37 AM
I'm not in Chicago, so can someone explain, is Ranger some sort of radio apologist? Suddenly some of his posts make a lot more sense to me...

doublem23
04-23-2010, 01:40 AM
I'm not in Chicago, so can someone explain, is Ranger some sort of radio apologist? Suddenly some of his posts make a lot more sense to me...

He is the host of the Sox pregame and postgame shows on 670 The Score.

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:08 AM
I just find it odd that so many people are so absolutely positive that a major league, multi-million dollar operation would be so stubborn as to continue to employ a person that it is obviously hurting their success, considering it would cost them almost nothing to make that change. If the only thing standing in the way of White Sox offensive success was Greg Walker, do you really think the team would prefer to lose games (and ultimately millions of dollars in ticket sales) just because of loyalty? Or that they are so stupid that they can't see the simple cure-all solution of replacing him?

I'm sorry, but I just can't believe the entire organization is so incompetent that they are unable to see this easy solution when so many people outside the club see it so clearly.

As I figured, some people will continue to think what they think without any real evidence to support it. (And I don't mean stats that show how bad the Sox offense is. Yes, we know it's bad. But that doesn't mean the hitting coach is the cause of it). That's fine. It just means there's nothing more to discuss.

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:08 AM
I'm not in Chicago, so can someone explain, is Ranger some sort of radio apologist? Suddenly some of his posts make a lot more sense to me...

If by "radio apologist" you mean "clear-thinking, logical person" then, yes, that's what I am.

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:17 AM
Too many words and the Sox still suck!

So, what you're saying is that you didn't bother to read what I had to say, but I'm still wrong?

captain54
04-23-2010, 02:20 AM
"At the MLB level, good hitters make a good offense. If guys can't hit, or the lineup is constructed in a certain way (such as having a bunch of free swinging, power hitters) your offense is going to be able to do only what the guys in the lineup are capable of doing."

Ranger - 10/18/09

Now that the 2010 lineup is constructed in such a way that the free swinging, power hitters are gone, my assumption from your statement of last year is that technically now, Walker should have more to work with, since they are capable of doing a lot more than swinging for the fences

Either way, and despite all the different ways you are going to attempt to spin it, Ranger, it's becoming apparent Greg Walker is a complete non factor as the Sox hitting coach in 2010.

It's Dankerific
04-23-2010, 02:20 AM
I'm sorry, but I just can't believe the entire organization is so incompetent that they are unable to see this easy solution when so many people outside the club see it so clearly.

You mean like spending time, money and effort on scouting and the minor leagues?

like using the best available people on the team to actually play the game instead of sitting on the bench?

like not using thornton when we are down by 4 runs so he's not fatigued the next day when we have a lead?

like not bringing out peavy to pitch the first batter of the 8th when everyone but the manager could tell he was gassed?

These folks are either incompetent, stupid, or stubborn. perhaps all 3.

PS, if everyone else has the same info as greg walker, why does his teams generally underperform everyone else's teams? if its the players, why does kw and the white sox continually acquire horrible hitters? is kw incompetent? are the players incompetent? if its just the players that are incompetent, why does kw acquire them, why isnt he incompetent for doing so?

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:23 AM
"At the MLB level, good hitters make a good offense. If guys can't hit, or the lineup is constructed in a certain way (such as having a bunch of free swinging, power hitters) your offense is going to be able to do only what the guys in the lineup are capable of doing."

Ranger - 10/18/09

Now that the 2010 lineup is constructed in such a way that the free swinging, power hitters are gone, my assumption from your statement of last year is that technically now, Walker should have more to work with, since they are capable of doing a lot more than swinging for the fences

Either way, and despite all the different ways you are going to attempt to spin it, Ranger, it's becoming apparent Greg Walker is a complete non factor as the Sox hitting coach in 2010.

First, thanks for taking the time to go dig through old posts. That's some real research. Second, you completely ignored the most important part of what I said. Hitters are only going to be able to do what they're capable of doing.

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:27 AM
You mean like spending time, money and effort on scouting and the minor leagues?

like using the best available people on the team to actually play the game instead of sitting on the bench?

like not using thornton when we are down by 4 runs so he's not fatigued the next day when we have a lead?

like not bringing out peavy to pitch the first batter of the 8th when everyone but the manager could tell he was gassed?

These folks are either incompetent, stupid, or stubborn. perhaps all 3.

PS, if everyone else has the same info as greg walker, why does his teams generally underperform everyone else's teams? if its the players, why does kw and the white sox continually acquire horrible hitters? is kw incompetent? are the players incompetent? if its just the players that are incompetent, why does kw acquire them, why isnt he incompetent for doing so?

Why do so many of you absolutely refuse to place blame on the guys with the sticks? It's just totally absurd.

By the way, Rudy Jaramillo (a fan favorite around here) is currently overseeing one of the lowest-scoring teams in the NL. How can this possibly be explained?

It's Dankerific
04-23-2010, 02:28 AM
Why do so many of you absolutely refuse to place blame on the guys with the sticks? It's just totally absurd.



That was an option, Ranger. The hitter COULD be incompetent.

If you believe that, why do the White Sox acquire incompetent hitters? Is the person deciding to do so incompetent?

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:30 AM
That was an option, Ranger. The hitter COULD be incompetent.

If you believe that, why do the White Sox acquire incompetent hitters? Is the person deciding to do so incompetent?

It's obviously not intentional to acquire an incompetent hitter or a guy that may be a bit of a headcase.

captain54
04-23-2010, 02:30 AM
I just find it odd that so many people are so absolutely positive that a major league, multi-million dollar operation would be so stubborn as to continue to employ a person that it is obviously hurting their success,

1) trading away Harold Baines then bringing him back
2) firing Tony LaRussa then wanting him back
3) unceremoniously dumping Carlton Fisk, then bringing him
back with open arms.

Terry Bevington

The multi-million dollar White Sox operation isn't infallible

It's Dankerific
04-23-2010, 02:33 AM
It's obviously not intentional to acquire an incompetent hitter or a guy that may be a bit of a headcase.

I'm asking direct questions, and you are not answering them. I didnt ask if acquiring incompetent hitters or headcases was intentional. I asked you if selecting them makes the selector incompetent.

captain54
04-23-2010, 02:37 AM
First, thanks for taking the time to go dig through old posts. That's some real research. Second, you completely ignored the most important part of what I said. Hitters are only going to be able to do what they're capable of doing.

So then Kenny Williams, one of the more respected GM's in MLB, is either a complete dufus or is on a real cold streak for continually supplying Walker with inferior talent.

Dibbs
04-23-2010, 02:38 AM
Ranger has ties with the organization. His opinions are to be taken with a grain of salt. In other words, they really hold no value when we are talking about the reality of this very mediocre ball club. The only thing that surprises me is that others didn't see this coming.

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:46 AM
1) trading away Harold Baines then bringing him back
2) firing Tony LaRussa then wanting him back
3) unceremoniously dumping Carlton Fisk, then bringing him
back with open arms.

Terry Bevington

The multi-million dollar White Sox operation isn't infallible

Care to cite an example that's happened within the last 13 years, or something that's more relevant to today?

I didn't say it was infallible. But when you're talking about a presumed-to-be easy and cheap solution to the team's biggest problem, there is no way they wouldn't do it, or that they couldn't see it.

It would take nothing to fire Greg Walker and replace him with someone else. If it was truly the solution, it would be done.

I'm asking direct questions, and you are not answering them. I didnt ask if acquiring incompetent hitters or headcases was intentional. I asked you if selecting them makes the selector incompetent.

Obviously, it does not, when that person also hits quite a bit. In fact, KW hits more than he misses. And he also does a pretty good job of working within a limited budget, though every move of his isn't perfect.

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:51 AM
Ranger has ties with the organization. His opinions are to be taken with a grain of salt. In other words, they really hold no value when we are talking about the reality of this very mediocre ball club. The only thing that surprises me is that others didn't see this coming.

That's actually exactly how I feel about your constant negativity.

However, when I talk, I'm not lying to you. I'm not sugar-coating or telling you something I don't believe. If I'm guessing, I'll tell you I'm guessing. But if I state something as fact, it's because I have good information to state it as such.

I'm just a reasonable person...something many people don't understand.

But, no, I didn't see it being this bad this year so far. I thought this team was more than capable of being an average offense. That wasn't unreasonable.

soxfan43
04-23-2010, 02:51 AM
This is ridiculous and hilarious. Just because Ranger is making sense, he's automatically a Sox apologist? If hitting coaches made such a major difference, you would hear about them being hired and fired more often like offensive and defensive coordinators every offseason in football. There are plenty of teams that haven't hit, they don't all just fire the hitting coach. How many people can name the Yankees, Rays or Phillies hitting coach of top of their head?

There is no hitting coach or manager in baseball that can make a **** lineup magically start hitting. You can't set the team up in a different scheme like it's football, you can't run different plays to get guys going like it's basketball or football. There is only so much the coaching staff can do to put these guys in the position to hit. Once the player steps in the box, it's on him. If this team ultimately fails, it's certainly not Greg Walkers fault. It's on Kenny.

Dibbs
04-23-2010, 02:51 AM
Ranger, you said on opening day that Ozzie's lineup of Kotsay batting 5th is better than my idea of batting Jones 5th. Do you still hold that opinion, and would like to see Kotsay continue to bat 5th? Or, would you rather see Jones in there while also agreeing that I can fill out a better lineup than Ozzie?

Ranger
04-23-2010, 02:56 AM
Ranger, you said on opening day that Ozzie's lineup of Kotsay batting 5th is better than my idea of batting Jones 5th. Do you still hold that opinion, and would like to see Kotsay continue to bat 5th? Or, would you rather see Jones in there while also agreeing that I can fill out a better lineup than Ozzie?

Um, when did I say that and what EXACTLY did I say?

I'm pretty sure what I said was that I understood the thinking in having Kotsay bat 5th (because of the LRLR matchup and because AJ wasn't really a better option there and neither was Teahen). I said when they decided to go with a heavy LH lineup, there are reasons to bat Kotsay in the 5th spot.

I never said Kotsay was better than Jones and I never disagreed that Jones should get most of the ABs.

And, yes, I still think it's hilarious that you believe you would do a better job than Ozzie. No offense.

captain54
04-23-2010, 02:57 AM
Care to cite an example that's happened within the last 13 years, or something that's more relevant to today?

I didn't say it was infallible. But when you're talking about a presumed-to-be easy and cheap solution to the team's biggest problem, there is no way they wouldn't do it, or that they couldn't see it.

It would take nothing to fire Greg Walker and replace him with someone else. If it was truly the solution, it would be done.



doesn't matter whether its 13 years or 13 hours, you yourself agreed a mulitmillion dollar organization might not be infallible, and at this point, this team is in such disarray, I don't think they know which end is up.

It's Dankerific
04-23-2010, 02:57 AM
Obviously, it does not, when that person also hits quite a bit. In fact, KW hits more than he misses. And he also does a pretty good job of working within a limited budget, though every move of his isn't perfect.

So, let me get this straight. The problems with the hitting are 100% the fault of the players and only the players. The team has been horrible offensively for years and are currently LAST in batting average and close to last in a bunch of other offensive categories. Yet the person selecting these players holds no responsibility for their failing because he "hits more than he misses," While having a limited budget of 5th among all MLB clubs.

I can tell you something. No one on the Chicago White Sox is hitting more than they're missing.

Dibbs
04-23-2010, 03:00 AM
That's actually exactly how I feel about your constant negativity.

You can call it negativity, but I call it reality. I had the team pegged for 79-81 wins, but it now looks like I may have been predicting through rose colored glasses. I am really not all that negative, but sometimes it feels therapeutic to vent when you are frustrated. I still stand and cheer at the park. Despite the laws of mathematics, I am 2-0 in games I have attended this year.

Anyway, Ozzie needs to go. Greg Walker needs to go. I am also starting to question Kenny for allowing the mad man Oz to have a say in the roster.

Ranger
04-23-2010, 03:05 AM
doesn't matter whether its 13 years or 13 hours, you yourself agreed a mulitmillion dollar organization might not be infallible, and at this point, this team is in such disarray, I don't think they know which end is up.

Right, I don't think they're perfect. But I also don't think they're so blatantly stupid or stubborn that they wouldn't execute a simple solution to a massive problem. A problem that has the potential to cost them millions of dollars. Especially, if it's so simple and obvious that everyone else in the world can see it.

captain54
04-23-2010, 03:12 AM
Just because Ranger is making sense

I think that's being a bit presumptuous....to make the statement that Walker can't be faulted because he continually gets inferior talent from the GM, then in the same breath claim that the GM "hits" more than "misses" despite the "limited budget...????

Ranger
04-23-2010, 03:13 AM
So, let me get this straight. The problems with the hitting are 100% the fault of the players and only the players. The team has been horrible offensively for years and are currently LAST in batting average and close to last in a bunch of other offensive categories. Yet the person selecting these players holds no responsibility for their failing because he "hits more than he misses," While having a limited budget of 5th among all MLB clubs.

I can tell you something. No one on the Chicago White Sox is hitting more than they're missing.

I didn't say "no responsibility", but he does get it right with individual players more than he gets it wrong. It may not be 100% on the players, but we're talking in the 90 to 95% range.

The payroll is actually around 7th in baseball, and it is limited because they're already stretched pretty thin without a ton of flexibility.

Really, their biggest organizational issue has been in not developing enough capable talent.

You can call it negativity, but I call it reality. I had the team pegged for 79-81 wins, but it now looks like I may have been predicting through rose colored glasses. I am really not all that negative, but sometimes it feels therapeutic to vent when you are frustrated. I still stand and cheer at the park. Despite the laws of mathematics, I am 2-0 in games I have attended this year.

Anyway, Ozzie needs to go. Greg Walker needs to go. I am also starting to question Kenny for allowing the mad man Oz to have a say in the roster.

I know you call it reality, but it's actually your relaity.

It's Dankerific
04-23-2010, 03:27 AM
I didn't say "no responsibility", but he does get it right with individual players more than he gets it wrong. It may not be 100% on the players, but we're talking in the 90 to 95% range.

I challenge you to find 13 players out of the 25 on the current roster that he got it right with. I'll even give you Jones, who Ozzie doesn't play more than Kotsay.


The payroll is actually around 7th in baseball, and it is limited because they're already stretched pretty thin without a ton of flexibility.


That seems to me to be something thats in the control of the GM. I wasn't aware that the players wrote their own contracts along with signing them.


Really, their biggest organizational issue has been in not developing enough capable talent.


Well, how could the infallible organization miss that one? You are correct thats a huge problem, I just see it as someones fault and not just random bad luck.

BainesHOF
04-23-2010, 03:45 AM
I just find it odd that so many people are so absolutely positive that a major league, multi-million dollar operation would be so stubborn as to continue to employ a person that it is obviously hurting their success, considering it would cost them almost nothing to make that change.

Are you really that naive?

BainesHOF
04-23-2010, 03:58 AM
Why do so many of you absolutely refuse to place blame on the guys with the sticks? It's just totally absurd.

Most people know the hitters and Greg Walker are to blame.

To suggest criticism of Walker means people blame only him is a lame attempt at discrediting the Walker criticism.

SluggersAway
04-23-2010, 04:07 AM
Um, when did I say that and what EXACTLY did I say?

I'm pretty sure what I said was that I understood the thinking in having Kotsay bat 5th (because of the LRLR matchup and because AJ wasn't really a better option there and neither was Teahen). I said when they decided to go with a heavy LH lineup, there are reasons to bat Kotsay in the 5th spot.

I never said Kotsay was better than Jones and I never disagreed that Jones should get most of the ABs.

That is Ranger for you, he gets paid to be wishy-washy.

"I know what you are saying and I agree to a certain extent, but Kenny and/or Ozzie have a point and valid reasons for when they say and do this...or that...or whatever"

Dollars=Nonsense

Paychecks=Wherever the Wind Blows

masloan
04-23-2010, 04:46 AM
The whole "fire Greg Walker" bandwagon is complete nonsense. I just do not see how anyone can possibly believe that he is the one to blame for the offense struggling.

AJ is hitting .163 and is that Walker's fault? He does not take any pitches, has not for years, and you think he will change because Walker tells him to?

You think Juan Pierre all of a sudden changed his hitting b/c of Walker? By the end of the year, Pierre will bring his batting average closer to his norm and will have very little to do with Greg Walker.

I am not saying that the hitting coach does not have an important role on a team, or that he should have no accountability. All I am saying is that it is the players more than him.

Everyone says that Walker hurts players that come to the Sox. He did not hurt Orlando Cabrera. He has not hurt Andruw Jones. How about Alex Rios? Most here say he has been swinging the bat well.

One more thought...most say that since many of the Sox hitters are struggling largely due to Walker's inabilities. What about when the hittes do well? What if Walker is actually one of the prime reasons for Quentin's 2008 success? What if Walker is actually one of the reasons for AJ's .300 average last year? Is that possible? Or is it only possible that he hurts players?

soxfanatlanta
04-23-2010, 07:06 AM
One more thought...most say that since many of the Sox hitters are struggling largely due to Walker's inabilities. What about when the hittes do well? What if Walker is actually one of the prime reasons for Quentin's 2008 success? What if Walker is actually one of the reasons for AJ's .300 average last year? Is that possible? Or is it only possible that he hurts players?

Everything is Walker fault...unless the hitters are doing well. Then somebody else should get the credit - just not him :smile:

If you think that JR (who is really good at making money) would not fire/move/eat Greg Walker to make millions of dollars for a better hitting team, then I have some waterfront property in FL to sell you.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 07:16 AM
One more thought...most say that since many of the Sox hitters are struggling largely due to Walker's inabilities. What about when the hittes do well? What if Walker is actually one of the prime reasons for Quentin's 2008 success? What if Walker is actually one of the reasons for AJ's .300 average last year? Is that possible? Or is it only possible that he hurts players?

On whole, though, the Sox offense has been somewhere between below average and downright terrible for since mostly 2007.

jabrch
04-23-2010, 07:27 AM
I just find it odd that so many people are so absolutely positive that a major league, multi-million dollar operation would be so stubborn as to continue to employ a person that it is obviously hurting their success, considering it would cost them almost nothing to make that change. If the only thing standing in the way of White Sox offensive success was Greg Walker, do you really think the team would prefer to lose games (and ultimately millions of dollars in ticket sales) just because of loyalty? Or that they are so stupid that they can't see the simple cure-all solution of replacing him?

Keep on banging your head in the wall Chris. I hope it feels good for you.

There are people who know better than you, OG, KW, JR about how to run a baseball franchise. Many of them post here. They read a few message boards and thus, have perfect information (which, by the way, even OG/KW/JR probably don't have) so they can tell you all the things to do today that would immediately result in wins. I mean - really - had Alexei played instead of Vizquel, we'd have won yesterday. And had Kotsay hit 14th, we'd have won...


Do you really "find it odd" that you'd see posts like this? I don't. I find it completely expected at this point in time

Tragg
04-23-2010, 07:31 AM
In fact, KW hits more than he misses. And he also does a pretty good job of working within a limited budget, though every move of his isn't perfect.
Not recently he hasn't. The Sox are sitting on 3 really bad years out of the last 4 WITH a budget in the top 20% of teams.
At some point, that has to be faced.

Now personally, I think Williams hasn't cut good deals recently ("dealmaking" has never been his strength); but the big problem is that I think Ozzie is calling the shots on talent, and he's really bad at it. I keep using the Owens-Sweeney example, but in a nutshell that shows Ozzie's weakness; Owens can barely hit the ball out off the infield and is not adept at getting on base, but he's fast; Sweeney has decent speed, but can get on base pretty well. Ozzie thinks Sweeney is useless and Owens a ML starter. The reality is that Sweeney brings most of what you get in Pierre (the good Pierre) except some steals, at league minimum salary.
It's too bad, because Williams has an eye for young talent...I wish he'd use it.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 07:45 AM
Keep on banging your head in the wall Chris. I hope it feels good for you.

There are people who know better than you, OG, KW, JR about how to run a baseball franchise. Many of them post here. They read a few message boards and thus, have perfect information (which, by the way, even OG/KW/JR probably don't have) so they can tell you all the things to do today that would immediately result in wins. I mean - really - had Alexei played instead of Vizquel, we'd have won yesterday. And had Kotsay hit 14th, we'd have won...


Do you really "find it odd" that you'd see posts like this? I don't. I find it completely expected at this point in time

Talk about your all time oversimplifications. Please find me the post where someone states definitively that had Vizquel or Kotsay played yesterday, the Sox definitely would have overcome another awful start by Peavy. Please.

This is the bottom line that all of us notice:

White Sox offensive ranks over the past 5 full seasons and 2010 to date:
2005 - 4.57 RPG - 9th in AL - Average
2006 - 5.36 RPG - 3rd in AL - Very Good
2007 - 4.28 RPG - 14th in AL - Awful
2008 - 4.98 RPG - 5th in AL - Good
2009 - 4.47 RPG - 12th in AL - Very Bad
2010 - 3.69 RPG - 12th in AL - Very Bad

That puts them under the league average 4 of these 6 seasons, and 3 of which they are basically in the league basement.

If you really think the Sox offense is fine, whatever, I'm not even going to argue at this point, anyone still unconvinced after the last 3 years isn't going to change their mind now, but your condescending attitude toward everyone who doesn't view the world through the same rose colored glasses you do is unnecessary. I'm sorry that everyone here doesn't adhere to the same "Everything is Great!" philosophy considering how mediocre the Sox have been the last few years and how poorly they've started this season.

masloan
04-23-2010, 07:46 AM
On whole, though, the Sox offense has been somewhere between below average and downright terrible for since mostly 2007.

And while I agree with you, I am just not so sure how much of that is Greg Walker's fault. I just will never agree that Walker is causing veteran players to struggle. Obviously this is a very small sample size, but the Derek Lee and Aramis Ramirez have struggled all year...is that Jaramillo's fault? Prince Fielder is currently batting .246 with 1 home run and 7 RBI...is that the Brewer's hitting coach's fault?

All I am saying is while maybe Walker is not good, and a change would help in some way, I think it is ridiculous to put a lot of the offensive blame on him.

masloan
04-23-2010, 07:49 AM
Talk about your all time oversimplifications. Please find me the post where someone states definitively that had Vizquel or Kotsay played yesterday, the Sox definitely would have overcome another awful start by Peavy. Please.

This is the bottom line that all of us notice:

White Sox offensive ranks over the past 5 full seasons and 2010 to date:
2005 - 4.57 RPG - 9th in AL - Average
2006 - 5.36 RPG - 3rd in AL - Very Good
2007 - 4.28 RPG - 14th in AL - Awful
2008 - 4.98 RPG - 5th in AL - Good
2009 - 4.47 RPG - 12th in AL - Very Bad
2010 - 3.69 RPG - 12th in AL - Very Bad

That puts them under the league average 4 of these 6 seasons, and 3 of which they are basically in the league basement.

If you really think the Sox offense is fine, whatever, I'm not even going to argue at this point, anyone still unconvinced after the last 3 years isn't going to change their mind now, but your condescending attitude toward everyone who doesn't view the world through the same rose colored glasses you do is unnecessary. I'm sorry that everyone here doesn't adhere to the same "Everything is Great!" philosophy considering how mediocre the Sox have been the last few years and how poorly they've started this season.

But just answer this please: do you think the problem is the players or the coaches? Obviously it might be a combination of the 2. But I will tell you this, you make Greg Walker the hitting coach of the Yankees and I doubt Jeter, Arod, Tex, etc.. will struggle as a result. Vice versa, if you put the best hitting coach in the world, with the best manager in the world on the Sox, I really doubt the White Sox will become the '27 Yankees.

g0g0
04-23-2010, 07:49 AM
Sorry to get a tad off-topic, but who exactly is Ranger?? A radio show host for who/what? I just joined this board last year and live in central IN so I'm sure I haven't heard him before. Though I have to say I agree with actually putting some blame (like 95%) on the hitter!

doublem23
04-23-2010, 07:52 AM
And while I agree with you, I am just not so sure how much of that is Greg Walker's fault. I just will never agree that Walker is causing veteran players to struggle. Obviously this is a very small sample size, but the Derek Lee and Aramis Ramirez have struggled all year...is that Jaramillo's fault? Prince Fielder is currently batting .246 with 1 home run and 7 RBI...is that the Brewer's hitting coach's fault?

All I am saying is while maybe Walker is not good, and a change would help in some way, I think it is ridiculous to put a lot of the offensive blame on him.

Well that's the way pro sports works. Ozzie and his coaching staff raked in the praise for "playing the game right" and "getting the most out of their players" in 2005 when they won it all. Their teams have consistently underperformed for years now, its only fair that they shoulder a lot of the blame.

As for your examples, Jaramillio has been with the Cubs for less than 1 months. And while Prince Fielder has started slow this season, since becoming a full-time player in 2006, he's hit to a tune of .283/.382/.553. The Sox, meanwhile, are well on their way to having one of the worst offenses in the American League for the 3rd season in the last 4. And the very worst part of it is that it's the exact same problems, every year, even with some roster turnover.

jabrch
04-23-2010, 07:56 AM
Talk about your all time oversimplifications. Please find me the post where someone states definitively that had Vizquel or Kotsay played yesterday, the Sox definitely would have overcome another awful start by Peavy. Please.

This is the bottom line that all of us notice:

White Sox offensive ranks over the past 5 full seasons and 2010 to date:
2005 - 4.57 RPG - 9th in AL - Average
2006 - 5.36 RPG - 3rd in AL - Very Good
2007 - 4.28 RPG - 14th in AL - Awful
2008 - 4.98 RPG - 5th in AL - Good
2009 - 4.47 RPG - 12th in AL - Very Bad
2010 - 3.69 RPG - 12th in AL - Very Bad

That puts them under the league average 4 of these 6 seasons, and 3 of which they are basically in the league basement.

If you really think the Sox offense is fine, whatever, I'm not even going to argue at this point, anyone still unconvinced after the last 3 years isn't going to change their mind now, but your condescending attitude toward everyone who doesn't view the world through the same rose colored glasses you do is unnecessary. I'm sorry that everyone here doesn't adhere to the same "Everything is Great!" philosophy considering how mediocre the Sox have been the last few years and how poorly they've started this season.

I didn't say everything is great - I'm sorry you read so poorly that you drew that conclusion - either that or you continue to try and miscast my opinion as you attack me - either way Dubs - keep right on doing it.

You don't see people complain about every little decision - most of which would have no impact either way in terms of who plays CF vs LF and who hits 5 vs 7? Really? Ok - your right to see it that way. I don't.

And I am not at all saying things are OK. Just that being all negative and miserable doesn't help me to deal with it. If folks want to be negative - they can - I will continue to not do it and to laugh my ass off at those who do. If baseball made me as negative as it makes some people here, I'd pack up and walk away from it. But that's just me - everyone is entitled to be their own type of fan - and everyone is entitled to comment on it. I just wish you had a micron of truth in how you continue to portray my opinion - but it seems there is virtually no chance of that happening. You continue to portray me how you want me to be seen...good for you Dubs...really good for you. I've had it with this sillyness.

jabrch
04-23-2010, 07:56 AM
Sorry to get a tad off-topic, but who exactly is Ranger?? A radio show host for who/what? I just joined this board last year and live in central IN so I'm sure I haven't heard him before. Though I have to say I agree with actually putting some blame (like 95%) on the hitter!

He does pre and post game for the Sox radio network.

masloan
04-23-2010, 07:58 AM
Well that's the way pro sports works. Ozzie and his coaching staff raked in the praise for "playing the game right" and "getting the most out of their players" in 2005 when they won it all. Their teams have consistently underperformed for years now, its only fair that they shoulder a lot of the blame.

As for your examples, Jaramillio has been with the Cubs for less than 1 months. And while Prince Fielder has started slow this season, since becoming a full-time player in 2006, he's hit to a tune of .283/.382/.553. The Sox, meanwhile, are well on their way to having one of the worst offenses in the American League for the 3rd season in the last 4. And the very worst part of it is that it's the exact same problems, every year, even with some roster turnover.

So you are telling me that Greg Walker gets a lot of the praise for 2005? Give me a break. I know Ozzie did, and I have no problem holding him accountable for decisions that hurt the Sox. But I have a problem holding Walker accountable when the players are the ones struggling.

You are right, the season is not even a month old. But my point is this, since we are still in April, there is still plenty of time for hitters to approach their career norms. And i just do not think Walker will be the reason for that. If Pierre starts getting hits, and ultimately hits .280 this year, did he turn it around b/c of Walker? If AJ starts getting hits now, is that b/c Walker made adjustments? Or is it b/c it is too early to determine the kind of year a player is going to have.

You mention that Prince Fielder has been a good hitter for years. Was that b/c of the hitting coach or b/c he is talented? If he struggles this year, is it the hitting coach's fault?

doublem23
04-23-2010, 08:01 AM
But just answer this please: do you think the problem is the players or the coaches? Obviously it might be a combination of the 2. But I will tell you this, you make Greg Walker the hitting coach of the Yankees and I doubt Jeter, Arod, Tex, etc.. will struggle as a result. Vice versa, if you put the best hitting coach in the world, with the best manager in the world on the Sox, I really doubt the White Sox will become the '27 Yankees.

I just don't get this line of thinking, so if Walker has absolutely no impact, good or bad, why can't we just fire him? I'm not arguing that the players are ultimately responsible for their success or failure, but the hitting coach obviously has some sort of duties, since every other team has one. If Walker really doesn't make any difference, then maybe we could find someone who could have a positive influence on our hitters? At this point anyway, I can't fathom how anyone could do any worse. We're still a week shy of May and the Sox are already dead in the water, we know Greg Walker isn't going to fix this offense, what is there to lose? There's absolutely no way everyone on this team is as bad as they've played, maybe it's just time to change things up for the sake of changing them.

soxfanatlanta
04-23-2010, 08:04 AM
If you really think the Sox offense is fine, whatever, I'm not even going to argue at this point, anyone still unconvinced after the last 3 years isn't going to change their mind now, but your condescending attitude toward everyone who doesn't view the world through the same rose colored glasses you do is unnecessary. I'm sorry that everyone here doesn't adhere to the same "Everything is Great!" philosophy considering how mediocre the Sox have been the last few years and how poorly they've started this season.

I don't think you will find any sober person at WSI who would say that everything is great with the offense. In my opinion, it's pretty screwed up. However, I refuse to point the finger at one individual, which seems to be running rampant round these parts.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 08:13 AM
So you are telling me that Greg Walker gets a lot of the praise for 2005? Give me a break. I know Ozzie did, and I have no problem holding him accountable for decisions that hurt the Sox. But I have a problem holding Walker accountable when the players are the ones struggling.

What is the difference? Walker is the hitting coach. His responsibility is for the offense, and the Sox offense has been horrible for years. I don't care if Greg Walker is the greatest hitting coach to ever grace the Earth, whatever his approach is does not click with this group. So you either fire the coach or clean house of players. But repeatedly expecting things to change for the better when there is no evidence that will occur is pure insanity.

You are right, the season is not even a month old. But my point is this, since we are still in April, there is still plenty of time for hitters to approach their career norms. And i just do not think Walker will be the reason for that. If Pierre starts getting hits, and ultimately hits .280 this year, did he turn it around b/c of Walker? If AJ starts getting hits now, is that b/c Walker made adjustments? Or is it b/c it is too early to determine the kind of year a player is going to have.

And the problem is that because of this awful start, we need guys to play above their career norms now. For the Sox to win 90 games this season, they have to go 85-61 (.582), and that might not even be enough. Do you have any reason to expect these guys to magically turn it on?

You mention that Prince Fielder has been a good hitter for years. Was that b/c of the hitting coach or b/c he is talented? If he struggles this year, is it the hitting coach's fault?

Who gives a ****? Whatever Fielder and his coach are doing are working. Whatever Walker is doing with the Sox is not. If its because the players are bad, then he's obviously not a good enough coach to maximize their skill, somehow the Twins won division title after division title with guys like Lew Ford, Carlos Gomez, Nick Punto, etc. Its not always just a question of good or bad, sometimes great coaches don't connect with their hitters. Sometimes coaches who have little previous success find a situation they can work with.

masloan
04-23-2010, 08:22 AM
I just don't get this line of thinking, so if Walker has absolutely no impact, good or bad, why can't we just fire him? I'm not arguing that the players are ultimately responsible for their success or failure, but the hitting coach obviously has some sort of duties, since every other team has one. If Walker really doesn't make any difference, then maybe we could find someone who could have a positive influence on our hitters? At this point anyway, I can't fathom how anyone could do any worse. We're still a week shy of May and the Sox are already dead in the water, we know Greg Walker isn't going to fix this offense, what is there to lose? There's absolutely no way everyone on this team is as bad as they've played, maybe it's just time to change things up for the sake of changing them.

Just like you said a few posts back; please show me where I said the Sox cannot fire him? And just so you know, I would not care if Walker was fired, and I also do not think anyone could do a worse job. I just do not think that someone else can make that big of a difference. And maybe the whole "change things up" strategy would work. And to be honest with you, I AM ALL FOR IT! Sometimes things like that help players. And I would not lose sleep if Ozzie or Walker were fired. I just do not think Walker is the cause. I put 99% of the blame on the players.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 08:23 AM
I don't think you will find any sober person at WSI who would say that everything is great with the offense. In my opinion, it's pretty screwed up. However, I refuse to point the finger at one individual, which seems to be running rampant round these parts.

And I don't think you'll find anyone who will say that the Sox will automatically become a juggernaut the second Walker is handed a pink slip. The bottom line is that a change needs to be made because there is absolutely no way the Sox could be any less effective offensively. Whatever Walk is doing does not click with this roster. If you view a baseball team as just a sum of its parts, you will be disappointed. Jim Tracy was an average/below average manager over 7 seasons with the Dodgers and Pirates. Then last year, he takes over the Rockies after an 18-28 start and they proceed finish the year 74-42 under his command. That doesn't make Tracy a genius, or Clint Hurdle a failure, all it means is that, for whatever reason, Tracy clicked with that team when Hurdle didn't.

I would be more inclined to agree with the "Don't blame Walker" crowd if people were just reacting on the Sox's slow start to the 2010 season, but there's a lot of precedence here. The Sox have been bad for a while. Maybe that's just because we have bad players. But they're obviously not improving with Walker, so I really cannot see the harm any more in trying something new. I'm sorry if you're uncomfortable singling out one guy for a team-wide failure, but that's the way it works. I'm sure Greg knew that when he took this job that he would be held accountable for the offensive performance of his team, and, IMO, he's been given more than enough of a leash to work with. Its time to try something new for the sake of trying something new.

SI1020
04-23-2010, 08:24 AM
I just find it odd that so many people are so absolutely positive that a major league, multi-million dollar operation would be so stubborn as to continue to employ a person that it is obviously hurting their success, considering it would cost them almost nothing to make that change. If the only thing standing in the way of White Sox offensive success was Greg Walker, do you really think the team would prefer to lose games (and ultimately millions of dollars in ticket sales) just because of loyalty? Or that they are so stupid that they can't see the simple cure-all solution of replacing him?

I'm sorry, but I just can't believe the entire organization is so incompetent that they are unable to see this easy solution when so many people outside the club see it so clearly.

As I figured, some people will continue to think what they think without any real evidence to support it. (And I don't mean stats that show how bad the Sox offense is. Yes, we know it's bad. But that doesn't mean the hitting coach is the cause of it). That's fine. It just means there's nothing more to discuss. Sorry, but I don't believe this is a particularly competent organization right now. This is getting pointless. If the Sox hit under .200 and lose more games than the 1970 team some will still defend Greg Walker and everyone else too. Some of us unrefined hicks can see that there are major problems all across the board. They can be fixed, but first it will take a simple admiision that certain things taken for granted just aren't working.

masloan
04-23-2010, 08:25 AM
What is the difference? Walker is the hitting coach. His responsibility is for the offense, and the Sox offense has been horrible for years. I don't care if Greg Walker is the greatest hitting coach to ever grace the Earth, whatever his approach is does not click with this group. So you either fire the coach or clean house of players. But repeatedly expecting things to change for the better when there is no evidence that will occur is pure insanity.



And the problem is that because of this awful start, we need guys to play above their career norms now. For the Sox to win 90 games this season, they have to go 85-61 (.582), and that might not even be enough. Do you have any reason to expect these guys to magically turn it on?



Who gives a ****? Whatever Fielder and his coach are doing are working. Whatever Walker is doing with the Sox is not. If its because the players are bad, then he's obviously not a good enough coach to maximize their skill, somehow the Twins won division title after division title with guys like Lew Ford, Carlos Gomez, Nick Punto, etc. Its not always just a question of good or bad, sometimes great coaches don't connect with their hitters. Sometimes coaches who have little previous success find a situation they can work with.

Please explain to me how you KNOW that Greg Walker's approach "does not click with this group". And why are you so convinced that these players will all of a sudden become good hitters? All pre-season long you were saying the Sox offense was gonna be bad. So far you have been right. But your reasoning was not that the sox had great hitters and a terrible hitting coach. It was that the Sox had poor hitters overall. What has changed since then?

masloan
04-23-2010, 08:26 AM
Sorry, but I don't believe this is a particularly competent organization right now. This is getting pointless. If the Sox hit under .200 and lose more games than the 1970 team some will still defend Greg Walker and everyone else too. Some of us unrefined hicks can see that there are major problems all across the board. They can be fixed, but first it will take a simple admiision that certain things taken for granted just aren't working.

There is a difference between defending Greg Walker and minimizing the impact you think he has; positive or negative.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 08:30 AM
Please explain to me how you KNOW that Greg Walker's approach "does not click with this group". And why are you so convinced that these players will all of a sudden become good hitters? All pre-season long you were saying the Sox offense was gonna be bad. So far you have been right. But your reasoning was not that the sox had great hitters and a terrible hitting coach. It was that the Sox had poor hitters overall. What has changed since then?

How do I know Walker's approach isn't working? I've been paying attention for the past few seasons.

Anyways, I think we a lot of bad hitters and a bad hitting coach. I'm not saying the Sox will definitely be better the second they show Walker the door. I'm just saying I can't imagine how they could be any worse with someone else.

masloan
04-23-2010, 08:33 AM
How do I know Walker's approach isn't working? I've been paying attention for the past few seasons.

Anyways, I think we a lot of bad hitters and a bad hitting coach. I'm not saying the Sox will definitely be better the second they show Walker the door. I'm just saying I can't imagine how they could be any worse with someone else.

I just do not understand how you can truly believe this. Just b/c a team is poor offensively, it does not mean that their hitting coach is doing a poor job. It is a very simple concept. Maybe he is contributing to the poor performance, but I think the talent of the players is a much larger factor.

g0g0
04-23-2010, 08:33 AM
He does pre and post game for the Sox radio network.

Ah gotcha! Thanks! :smile:

SI1020
04-23-2010, 08:43 AM
Everything is Walker fault...unless the hitters are doing well. Then somebody else should get the credit - just not him :smile:

If you think that JR (who is really good at making money) would not fire/move/eat Greg Walker to make millions of dollars for a better hitting team, then I have some waterfront property in FL to sell you. I strongly disagree. In my life I have seen more than a very organizations continue incompetent and counterproductive policies when the truth stared them right in the face. Whether due to arrogance, politics or a stubborn loyalty to outmoded business strategies. In fact one company I worked for ended up selling the division I worked in because managerial incompetence was bleeding the company. Yes the White Sox might keep Greg Walker no matter what because they need to prove that they are in charge and not us stupid no nothing fans.

mcfish
04-23-2010, 08:43 AM
So, we can all agree that the Sox offense has been unacceptable for 3 out of the last 4 years. What I don't get is the people advocating for the status quo. Maybe firing Walker will have no effect. Maybe firing Ozzie wouldn't work. Maybe replacing Kenny wouldn't make things better. Certainly none of those options will make everything magically better overnight.

However, I can tell you with some certainty that doing nothing is going to result in more of the same. So hopefully someone within the organization is trying to implement some sort of change, whether that be in philosophy or personnel.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 08:44 AM
I just do not understand how you can truly believe this. Just b/c a team is poor offensively, it does not mean that their hitting coach is doing a poor job. It is a very simple concept. Maybe he is contributing to the poor performance, but I think the talent of the players is a much larger factor.

Then what is the point of having a hitting coach? That's exactly what it means! How else do you measure success? I don't care if Walker would be the best hitting coach ever if he was employed by any of the other 29 teams in the league. He's the White Sox hitting coach, and in that position, he is doing a lousy job. I'm not saying teams should go out and fire their hitting coach every time they get shut out, but Walker has been here for years, and for the majority of that time, we have been a below average-to-downright terrible team offensively. I've reached the point where I no longer think his methods work with these guys. That's not the same as saying the Sox will be working the count, mashing the ball, and magically finding holes if we fire him. I just don't see the point of keeping a guy around when it is obvious (to me) that the team will not succeed under his tutelage. The worst thing the Sox could do is make a lateral movement, which they very well might since this lineup is full of just bad hitters, but there's a chance they'll find someone who will catch lightning in a bottle with this team. The Sox have dug themselves in a hole, but there's still time to turn this around, but they need to do something soon.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-23-2010, 08:45 AM
Why do so many of you absolutely refuse to place blame on the guys with the sticks? It's just totally absurd.

By the way, Rudy Jaramillo (a fan favorite around here) is currently overseeing one of the lowest-scoring teams in the NL. How can this possibly be explained?

PLEASE STOP THIS! Look guys....It's the players fault. It's like school. If a teacher teaches the class and even gives individul help but the students don't study, they will not pass. And that would be the students falt. The White Sox are not hitting and this is because they players are not doing it. Could Walker do better? Maybe. I don't keep up with what he does with the players. BUT! At the end of the day, if you are up at the plate and you are bad every at-bat, it is YOUR fault. My personal hitting instructer told me to have my elbow down when I am in my stance. They made me a worse hitter and I was really great the past season. I made the change back and I learned YOU gotta do what makes YOU more comformatble at the plate.

SI1020
04-23-2010, 08:47 AM
There is a difference between defending Greg Walker and minimizing the impact you think he has; positive or negative. Then again I say while banging my head against the wall, if that's true then why have a hitting coach? If you don't want to go that route, then at what point is there some sort of accountability? How bad does it have to get?

doublem23
04-23-2010, 08:47 AM
So, we can all agree that the Sox offense has been unacceptable for 3 out of the last 4 years. What I don't get is the people advocating for the status quo. Maybe firing Walker will have no effect. Maybe firing Ozzie wouldn't work. Maybe replacing Kenny wouldn't make things better. Certainly none of those options will make everything magically better overnight.

However, I can tell you with some certainty that doing nothing is going to result in more of the same. So hopefully someone within the organization is trying to implement some sort of change, whether that be in philosophy or personnel.

:clap:

I agree.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-23-2010, 08:54 AM
:clap:

I agree.

Yes this is true. BUT players still have to do something during their at-bat.

mcfish
04-23-2010, 08:56 AM
Ranger -

You will not place blame on Walker, which is fine. What you do say is
Why do so many of you absolutely refuse to place blame on the guys with the sticks? It's just totally absurd.


To which this reply was made
That was an option, Ranger. The hitter COULD be incompetent.

If you believe that, why do the White Sox acquire incompetent hitters? Is the person deciding to do so incompetent?

And you said
It's obviously not intentional to acquire an incompetent hitter or a guy that may be a bit of a headcase.


Obviously, it does not, when that person also hits quite a bit. In fact, KW hits more than he misses. And he also does a pretty good job of working within a limited budget, though every move of his isn't perfect.

It can't be both. Either the coaching or something within the clubhouse is causing a team with enough talent to underperform, and nothing has been done in 4 years to improve the situation, OR the talent level of the team is not where it needs to be and Kenny is not doing a good job. Limited budget is not an excuse when you have the 7th highest payroll in baseball and Kenny himself created the situation.

Of course, in reality it's a combination of the two, but I don't believe that you really think that neither of them deserves blame and that it all should rest with the players. So, which do you think is the bigger problem - is the coaching not working with the talent properly, or is Kenny not supplying enough talent?

masloan
04-23-2010, 08:56 AM
Then what is the point of having a hitting coach? That's exactly what it means! How else do you measure success? I don't care if Walker would be the best hitting coach ever if he was employed by any of the other 29 teams in the league. He's the White Sox hitting coach, and in that position, he is doing a lousy job. I'm not saying teams should go out and fire their hitting coach every time they get shut out, but Walker has been here for years, and for the majority of that time, we have been a below average-to-downright terrible team offensively. I've reached the point where I no longer think his methods work with these guys. That's not the same as saying the Sox will be working the count, mashing the ball, and magically finding holes if we fire him. I just don't see the point of keeping a guy around when it is obvious (to me) that the team will not succeed under his tutelage. The worst thing the Sox could do is make a lateral movement, which they very well might since this lineup is full of just bad hitters, but there's a chance they'll find someone who will catch lightning in a bottle with this team. The Sox have dug themselves in a hole, but there's still time to turn this around, but they need to do something soon.

Listen, and try to actually comprehend this time. There is a difference between making a change and assigning blame. Are you with me so far?

I am not saying that a change will not help. Coaching changes can help for many different reasons. However, JUST B/C A TEAM IS BAD OFFENSIVELY, IT DOES NOT MEAN THE HITTING COACH IS DOING A POOR JOB. If a team has players who are not very talented offensively, is the hitting coach supposed to snap his fingers and make them in to all stars? He is not a magician. Keep wasting time whining about Walker when players like AJ, Quentin, Beckham, etc.. are the ones that are letting us down. We can go back and forth forever on this, but it is pointless. AJ hit .300 last year. He is hitting half that thus far. Walker must really be struggling.

SI1020
04-23-2010, 09:00 AM
Mcfish you are hitting on all cylinders. I salute you.

mcfish
04-23-2010, 09:02 AM
Mcfish you are hitting on all cylinders. I salute you.
Thanks :redface:

SI1020
04-23-2010, 09:05 AM
JUST B/C A TEAM IS BAD OFFENSIVELY, IT DOES NOT MEAN THE HITTING COACH IS DOING A POOR JOB. That is actually a very good point. However if different hitters come and go, different in styles, history and production, and the results are the same or similar year after year then I say the hitting coach is doing a poor job.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 09:07 AM
Listen, and try to actually comprehend this time. There is a difference between making a change and assigning blame. Are you with me so far?

I am not saying that a change will not help. Coaching changes can help for many different reasons. However, JUST B/C A TEAM IS BAD OFFENSIVELY, IT DOES NOT MEAN THE HITTING COACH IS DOING A POOR JOB. If a team has players who are not very talented offensively, is the hitting coach supposed to snap his fingers and make them in to all stars? He is not a magician. Keep wasting time whining about Walker when players like AJ, Quentin, Beckham, etc.. are the ones that are letting us down. We can go back and forth forever on this, but it is pointless. AJ hit .300 last year. He is hitting half that thus far. Walker must really be struggling.

Yes, it does. Now, that doesn't mean the guy is automatically a bad coach. But, for the situation he is in, yes, he is doing a bad job.

dickallen15
04-23-2010, 09:20 AM
I think Ranger likes being employed, and probably likes even more how he's employed. I don't know why people here would assume he would blast anything White Sox. It isn't going to happen, and I don't blame him. I would bet if you slipped him a mickey and asked him some of the same things in private, his answers might be a bit different. That said, I agree with him about Walker. Everyone assumes a new hitting coach makes everyone a .300 hitter. He pointed out the Cubs, but that was given snide remarks. Its not the coach its the talent. Look at last night's line up? How in the world do you expect that line up to score more than 2 runs?

JohnTucker0814
04-23-2010, 09:21 AM
That's actually exactly how I feel about your constant negativity.

However, when I talk, I'm not lying to you. I'm not sugar-coating or telling you something I don't believe. If I'm guessing, I'll tell you I'm guessing. But if I state something as fact, it's because I have good information to state it as such.

I'm just a reasonable person...something many people don't understand.

But, no, I didn't see it being this bad this year so far. I thought this team was more than capable of being an average offense. That wasn't unreasonable.

Ranger,

I completely understand what you're saying about Walker and how he knows what all these guys are doing wrong and that he can tell you within seconds of what each guys problems are. I don't know if all hitting coaches can do this.

My question is this, what are his methods to correct those flaws? Is he doing something with each guy to get him out of those bad habits? Is he calling on other people to help him figure out what might work for each hitter? Maybe soft toss will help clear up one hitters flaw, maybe extra cage time... I dont' know.... Are you seeing him try and think outside of the box to fix these guys? Whatever his methods of working through these flaws is not working. That is not a slight on Walkers intelligence or if he knows hitting. Maybe he just doesn't know what works with our hitters to get them out of their funk.

Thats why I think his job should be on the line. It's not about recognizing someones mechanical issues, it's about FIXING them. Like you said, even the hitters can tell you what is wrong, pretty much anyone that is at their level should be able to tell you whats wrong with thier swing. How do you fix it? That is where you're hitting coach comes in. I want our franchise to do everything in their power to turn this around, if that means bring in someone to help, even if that makes Walker upset, then we do it!

mcfish
04-23-2010, 09:21 AM
Look at last night's line up? How in the world do you expect that line up to score more than 2 runs?
So you think Kenny deserves the majority of the blame for the situation?

doublem23
04-23-2010, 09:23 AM
I think Ranger likes being employed, and probably likes even more how he's employed. I don't know why people here would assume he would blast anything White Sox. It isn't going to happen, and I don't blame him. I would bet if you slipped him a mickey and asked him some of the same things in private, his answers might be a bit different. That said, I agree with him about Walker. Everyone assumes a new hitting coach makes everyone a .300 hitter. He pointed out the Cubs, but that was given snide remarks. Its not the coach its the talent. Look at last night's line up? How in the world do you expect that line up to score more than 2 runs?

Yes, because Jaramillio has long been considered an excellent hitting coach and he's all of a sudden lousy based on less than 20 games into his tenure with the Cubs? That's a classic kneejerk reaction.

Nobody is piling on Greg Walker because the Sox have gotten off to such a ****ty start this year. People have been losing faith with Walker for years.

Iwritecode
04-23-2010, 09:38 AM
PLEASE STOP THIS! Look guys....It's the players fault. It's like school. If a teacher teaches the class and even gives individul help but the students don't study, they will not pass. And that would be the students falt. The White Sox are not hitting and this is because they players are not doing it. Could Walker do better? Maybe. I don't keep up with what he does with the players. BUT! At the end of the day, if you are up at the plate and you are bad every at-bat, it is YOUR fault. My personal hitting instructer told me to have my elbow down when I am in my stance. They made me a worse hitter and I was really great the past season. I made the change back and I learned YOU gotta do what makes YOU more comformatble at the plate.

So in other words, if you had a better coach that knew how to correct what you were doing wrong, you would have been a better hitter...

kobo
04-23-2010, 09:47 AM
I just do not understand how you can truly believe this. Just b/c a team is poor offensively, it does not mean that their hitting coach is doing a poor job. It is a very simple concept. Maybe he is contributing to the poor performance, but I think the talent of the players is a much larger factor.
It's trends. Look at the approach the hitters have when they are at the plate. They either try to pull everything or they try to hit the ball as hard as they can. It's the same crap year in and year out. There are guys on the team this year that weren't here last year (Pierre, Teahen, Rios to an extent, etc) and it's the same results. How can an entire team be in a slump at the same time? Why do the Sox ALWAYS have problems with a pitcher they have never faced before? Why do Sox hitters have trouble with breaking balls on the outside part of the plate? These are all trends that the offense has displayed over the past 3-4 years. With roster turnover one would expect different results, but that's not happening.

I'm not solely blaming Walker, but obviously his philosophy or approach simply isn't working. And maybe it's not his philosophy, maybe it's coming from somewhere higher up in the organization or it's coming from Guillen. Whatever it is, it's not working. I'm tired of watching the same crap year to year, it's maddening.

kobo
04-23-2010, 09:56 AM
Everyone assumes a new hitting coach makes everyone a .300 hitter.
I don't think anyone assumes that. I'd be happy if all the guys on the team were hitting around their career averages. I expected nothing more than an average offense with this group with the ability to get on and move guys over and hit a homerun or drive in runs when needed. of course there are going to be games when the offense struggles, we all know that. But what is happening right now is the same thing that happened last year, and it's maddening that an entire team is basically slumping. If it was a couple guys and the rest were doing their jobs I don't think people would be as frustrated. But what's happening now is just ridiculous.

masloan
04-23-2010, 10:04 AM
Yes, it does. Now, that doesn't mean the guy is automatically a bad coach. But, for the situation he is in, yes, he is doing a bad job.

Ok. So with your mentality, the hitting coach for the 2009 Pirates did a bad job. They scored the fewest runs in the majors last year but had a lineup that consisted of these players:

C Ryan Doumit
1B Adam Laroche
2B Freddy Sanchez
SS Jack Wilson
3B Andy Laroche
OF Nyjer Morgan
OF Andrew McCutchen
OF Brandon Moss

So the hitting coach automatically did a bad job b/c their offense was bad?

Just an asinine way of thinking in my opinion.

mcfish
04-23-2010, 10:09 AM
Ok. So with your mentality, the hitting coach for the 2009 Pirates did a bad job. They scored the fewest runs in the majors last year but had a lineup that consisted of these players:

C Ryan Doumit
1B Adam Laroche
2B Freddy Sanchez
SS Jack Wilson
3B Andy Laroche
OF Nyjer Morgan
OF Andrew McCutchen
OF Brandon Moss

So the hitting coach automatically did a bad job b/c their offense was bad?

Just an asinine way of thinking in my opinion.
maslon -

Please respond to this post instead:
That is actually a very good point. However if different hitters come and go, different in styles, history and production, and the results are the same or similar year after year then I say the hitting coach is doing a poor job.

Jim Shorts
04-23-2010, 10:11 AM
I gotta give Ranger some props here. This guy is single handedly taking the heat for OG, KW, JR and GW. I have no idea what he makes, but I'll tell you it ain't enough.

He's giving everyone here a channel to vent frustration. That is commendable.

The guy is not paid, nor employed by the White Sox. That is lost here.

Jim Shorts
04-23-2010, 10:17 AM
Since I gave Ranger his kudos, I should give my opinion...


I'm in the corner of blaming the hitters right now. That said, I think the Sox as an organization, need to make a change even if it is just for changes sake. The organization has nearly a full season of revenues to be had or lost. Something needs to be done. I don't know exactly if there is a panecea for the whole problem, but I also understand that KW, OG and GW are all not going to be dismissed in April. So, Walk makes sense at this point in time.

The offense is horrible...the fan base is pissed. These are the only clear things right now. All the arguments are just semantics.

voodoochile
04-23-2010, 10:17 AM
So, we can all agree that the Sox offense has been unacceptable for 3 out of the last 4 years. What I don't get is the people advocating for the status quo. Maybe firing Walker will have no effect. Maybe firing Ozzie wouldn't work. Maybe replacing Kenny wouldn't make things better. Certainly none of those options will make everything magically better overnight.

However, I can tell you with some certainty that doing nothing is going to result in more of the same. So hopefully someone within the organization is trying to implement some sort of change, whether that be in philosophy or personnel.

Really? So all these guys will continue to hit well below their career norms and it's all due to Walker?

Beckham .228
Pierre.215
TCM .212
AJP .167
TCQ .163

Man this new hitting coach better be Frank Thomas and Babe Ruth rolled into one and able to actively play if that's the case.

TheOldRoman
04-23-2010, 10:24 AM
I gotta give Ranger some props here. This guy is single handedly taking the heat for OG, KW, JR and GW. I have no idea what he makes, but I'll tell you it ain't enough.

He's giving everyone here a channel to vent frustration. That is commendable.

The guy is not paid, nor employed by the White Sox. That is lost here.Yes. I agree with Ranger on many thing, but disagree with him strongly on Walker. However, people keep throwing out that he is a team employee, or he knows where his bread it buttered, etc. People don't need him to have a certain attitude. Pant pissers are going to piss their pants regardless (as the did when the Sox had their only losing month in August of 2005), and blind optimists are going to remain extremely positive no matter how bad the Sox are playing. I don't think anyone tunes in to Rongey to decide how to feel about the team.

I don't listen to the pre or post games shows often, but I have gotten the impression that Rongey is very rational. Lots of people on this site are not. He will say a bad team is bad, or in this case, say a pretty good team is playing like garbage. His job doesn't require him to blindly back management. As long as he doesn't become a Mariotti or demand people be fired, I imagine he could say anything he wants.

soltrain21
04-23-2010, 10:25 AM
Really? So all these guys will continue to hit well below their career norms and it's all due to Walker?

Beckham .228
Pierre.215
TCM .212
AJP .167
TCQ .163

Man this new hitting coach better be Frank Thomas and Babe Ruth rolled into one and able to actively play if that's the case.

Doing "more of the same" to me is not being good situational hitters - and this team hasn't been for the better part of three years. Sure, they might get their averages up - but that doesn't mean they are getting a guy in from second with nobody out.

captain54
04-23-2010, 10:37 AM
I think Ranger likes being employed, and probably likes even more how he's employed. I don't know why people here would assume he would blast anything White Sox.

I totally get that, and if I were Ranger would probably do the same. However, while reading Ranger's comments for a while now, it's becoming more and more apparent that his point of view conveniently twists in favor of management, no matter how contradictory.

So while a fan's opinion might not be anything other than that...a fan's opinion....and we aren't running the organization or making the big money decisions...the beauty lies in the fact that a fan's opinion comes from nothing other than emotion and love for the team...as opposed to an opinion influenced and based on outside forces.

EdHerman12
04-23-2010, 10:44 AM
The guy is not paid, nor employed by the White Sox. That is lost here.

Jim, he's a representitive of the Sox flagship station WSCR so thus he's an extension of the organization by way of a partnership. I've worked in sports media,and the first rule is you NEVER criticize the organization you work for, do bussiness with or represent whether it's front office, or media radio, TV and or print no matter how bad the team is..So no, he's not paid by the White Sox per se...the Sox are using the company he works for to broadcast their games...It'd be like selling a make of car through your own car dealership but telling people..this car is a junk...you ain't gonna be in bussiness too long...Notice how Marriotti is not with the ST anymore after all his venom and Ozzie witch hunting? You'll get cut off real quick...

With all that said...Chris is a good guy...he's between a rock and a hard place...it takes a even keeled person to do that. I know all, about post game call-in shows especially when a team is losing or struggling..So I shouldn't have said anything last night in a personal attack manner. I have contacted him personally to convey my thoughts, and the matter is closed. Hopefully the team will start winning and we'll all be happy

Peace..

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-23-2010, 10:44 AM
So in other words, if you had a better coach that knew how to correct what you were doing wrong, you would have been a better hitter...

Perhaps. His mistake was that he told me something that didn't work for. Hitting good is about comfort. I know a lot of people who have elbow down. My personal told me something that many people may do but in the end it's all about comfort. Take this however you want lol

doublem23
04-23-2010, 10:45 AM
Ok. So with your mentality, the hitting coach for the 2009 Pirates did a bad job. They scored the fewest runs in the majors last year but had a lineup that consisted of these players:

C Ryan Doumit
1B Adam Laroche
2B Freddy Sanchez
SS Jack Wilson
3B Andy Laroche
OF Nyjer Morgan
OF Andrew McCutchen
OF Brandon Moss

So the hitting coach automatically did a bad job b/c their offense was bad?

Just an asinine way of thinking in my opinion.

You're not understanding my point of view if you're just going to cherry pick examples of bad teams and argue that my opinion is strictly black and white. First, I have no idea who the hitting coach on the Pirates is. Second, I have no idea how long he has been there. Third, every season in and of itself it not a single event, and I'm willing to cut guys slack in the aim of building a stable foundation for young players to grow in. Fourth, the Pirates are a ****ing joke.

If this was Walker's first year on the job, I'd be willing to give him some time. But it's not. We have had a poor offense for the majority of the last few seasons. I don't care how much or how little effect the hitting coach has on a team, whatever Greg Walker is doing with the Sox is clearly not working. It's time to try something else. Likely not much would change, because the Sox are full of bad hitters. But again, how could things possibly be any worse? This is literally as bad as the Sox can be offensively. I wasn't wild about this team going into the season, but they're even disappointing me. They suck.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-23-2010, 10:51 AM
To add what to what I was saying, I am a bettr hitter doing something unconventional. He was telling me to be conventional and it hurt me for one season. I then changed back and hit better again.

Jim Shorts
04-23-2010, 11:01 AM
Jim, he's a representitive of the Sox flagship station WSCR so thus he's an extension of the organization by way of a partnership. I've worked in sports media,and the first rule is you NEVER criticize the organization you work for, do bussiness with or represent whether it's front office, or media radio, TV and or print no matter how bad the team is..So no, he's not paid by the White Sox per se...the Sox are using the company he works for to broadcast their games...It'd be like selling a make of car through your own car dealership but telling people..this car is a junk...you ain't gonna be in bussiness too long...Notice how Marriotti is not with the ST anymore after all his venom and Ozzie witch hunting? You'll get cut off real quick...

With all that said...Chris is a good guy...he's between a rock and a hard place...it takes a even keeled person to do that. I know all, about post game call-in shows especially when a team is losing or struggling..So I shouldn't have said anything last night in a personal attack manner. I have contacted him personally to convey my thoughts, and the matter is closed. Hopefully the team will start winning and we'll all be happy

Peace..


I love the bolded part. I wasn't hunting for resume's ... but since you wanted to flash your business card...I will too. Still do contractual work in sponsorships and sports media. Thanks for your background, Ed. Your comparisions of Rongey and Mariotti and just incorrect. You're misinformed.

None of you will be happy unless Rongey argees with you. If he's not asking for Walker's head, he is a corporate shill. There is no middle ground here...despite the fact that everything Rongey has offered up is extremely rational.

Just agree to disagree with Ranger. Winning a debate with Ranger isn't likely and it isn't going to solve any problem.

Turning blue in the face because you're pissed isn't going to solve any of the problems. Tuning out the team and not buying tickets, however, will get your point across.

Good for you for being in sports media, Ed. It's a thankless profession, especially on payday.

ChiSox81
04-23-2010, 11:12 AM
Here is the deal coaches are merely hired to be fired. That is the way professional sports are. You can't fire the team unless you want to see a white flag trade. So while Walker may be a good, hell even a great hitting coach the time for him to leave has come. The guys might not be listening to him anymore. Maybe the hitters need to hear a different voice. Regardless it isn't working and the status quo can't remain.

jabrch
04-23-2010, 11:21 AM
I don't care if Walker stays or goes. I have no passion for him either way. I don't believe a new hitting coach makes these guys better hitters - as I don't believe that is (in most cases) the result of a new hitting coach.

I do not believe that a good hitting coach makes a good hitter. That's a very small piece to the equation. If they fire Walk, I won't care. If they keep him, I still won't care.

PalehosePlanet
04-23-2010, 11:26 AM
I don't care if Walker stays or goes. I have no passion for him either way. I don't believe a new hitting coach makes these guys better hitters - as I don't believe that is (in most cases) the result of a new hitting coach.

I do not believe that a good hitting coach makes a good hitter. That's a very small piece to the equation. If they fire Walk, I won't care. If they keep him, I still won't care.

Agreed. Also, a good gauge would be if we had any young hitters that Walker couldn't get to produce, but did once they left the organization, and flourished with another team/hitting coach.

I can't think of any circumstances fitting this scenario off the top of my head.

soltrain21
04-23-2010, 11:33 AM
Agreed. Also, a good gauge would be if we had any young hitters that Walker couldn't get to produce, but did once they left the organization, and flourished with another team/hitting coach.

I can't think of any circumstances fitting this scenario off the top of my head.

That's because our young players are pretty much bad to begin with.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 11:33 AM
Agreed. Also, a good gauge would be if we had any young hitters that Walker couldn't get to produce, but did once they left the organization, and flourished with another team/hitting coach.

I can't think of any circumstances fitting this scenario off the top of my head.

You mean like Nick Swisher?

07 OAK - .262/.381/.455, 659 PA
08 Sox - .219/.332/.410, 588 PA
09 NYY - .249/.371/.498, 607 PA

One of those doesn't fit in. Hmm.

JB98
04-23-2010, 11:52 AM
If this doesn't turn around, someone has gotta pay. Results are more important than good intentions in this world. Give me better results, and I'll stop complaining about KW, Ozzie and Walker.

I don't care if they're working hard. Again, results are more important than good intentions.

We didn't have good results last year, especially offensively. So, KW made several changes to the lineup. The results still suck, especially offensively.

I'm tired of it. I'm actually tired of arguing about Walker. Enough of this bull****. Get the job done, or get the hell out of the way and give somebody else a chance.

Nellie_Fox
04-23-2010, 11:54 AM
Not only that but sometimes even fans have logical thinking brains and three digit IQs.You left out "incomplete information."

I am not taking sides in this debate because I know that I don't know enough to. I don't know what Walker teaches (or tries to teach) so I have no way of knowing whether it's his fault. Some of you state your opinion of what he teaches as fact based on your perception of what the players are doing. In other words, if you see a lot of guys trying to pull the ball and hit home runs, you jump to the conclusion that's what Walker tells them to do. I have no idea if that's true or not, so I don't come to any conclusion about it.

I'm unhappy about the way things are going, but I don't let it make me angry.

SI1020
04-23-2010, 11:59 AM
You left out "incomplete information."

I am not taking sides in this debate because I know that I don't know enough to. I don't know what Walker teaches (or tries to teach) so I have no way of knowing whether it's his fault. Some of you state your opinion of what he teaches as fact based on your perception of what the players are doing. In other words, if you see a lot of guys trying to pull the ball and hit home runs, you jump to the conclusion that's what Walker tells them to do. I have no idea if that's true or not, so I don't come to any conclusion about it.

I'm unhappy about the way things are going, but I don't let it make me angry. I can't help myself. When it comes to the White Sox I have the same emotional investment I did when I was a kid. I hate it when they're lousy. Even more so when in addition they play dumb. The teams of my youth mostly played as smart as can be, they were just lacking one or two players every year.

spawn
04-23-2010, 12:03 PM
You left out "incomplete information."

I am not taking sides in this debate because I know that I don't know enough to. I don't know what Walker teaches (or tries to teach) so I have no way of knowing whether it's his fault. Some of you state your opinion of what he teaches as fact based on your perception of what the players are doing. In other words, if you see a lot of guys trying to pull the ball and hit home runs, you jump to the conclusion that's what Walker tells them to do. I have no idea if that's true or not, so I don't come to any conclusion about it.

I'm unhappy about the way things are going, but I don't let it make me angry.
:yup:

Crestani
04-23-2010, 12:14 PM
You left out "incomplete information."

I am not taking sides in this debate because I know that I don't know enough to. I don't know what Walker teaches (or tries to teach) so I have no way of knowing whether it's his fault. Some of you state your opinion of what he teaches as fact based on your perception of what the players are doing. In other words, if you see a lot of guys trying to pull the ball and hit home runs, you jump to the conclusion that's what Walker tells them to do. I have no idea if that's true or not, so I don't come to any conclusion about it.

I'm unhappy about the way things are going, but I don't let it make me angry.

I too am unhappy about the way things are going, but unfortunately for me I do get angry and I have to turn off the game because my dog hides and my wife leaves the room with my screaming at the lackluster play. :angry:

JC456
04-23-2010, 12:33 PM
Dub, the post wasn't bad at all. Some people don't understand that it's a message board and that you wrote a message. And you are intitled to based on the rules of the board. So, it wasn't their message. Based on the belittling nature of their replies, it appears they don't agree with you. And instead of just saying that or ignoring it, they instead did what many on message boards do attempt to belittle. However, as I said it is a message board and they have that right. But I degress, I guess they would instead like to continue to watch this BORING team instead of identifying any issues. Most notably pointed out by you the addition of players with quality careers not producing.

I also could debate with you several points, but the message is for Ranger.

Enjoy:gulp:

WhiteSox5187
04-23-2010, 12:36 PM
I was thinking about this last night, from Ranger's definition what a hitting coach is supposed to do is look at film, give them the info on the starting pitcher and look at some mechanical stuff; really this sounds like the kind of thing anyone with any experience with major league baseball can do. If it's that simple then keeping Greg Walker shouldn't hurt, but then again nor should firing him. I know that Walker isn't going to be able to take a guy like Pierre and all of a sudden make him a guy with a .350 OBP and a .800 OPS, just as I know he won't turn a guy like Konerko into a guy who slap the ball the other way for hit and runs. Really no hitting coach can do that, those guys are what they are.

There are two things that strike me about Walker as a hitting coach, first is when Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura were coming up through the ranks they were coached by Walt Hrinak (forgive my spelling) who had a system when it came to hitting and made his hitters believe in his system. Even DJ has mentioned that when he came over in 1994 (he wound up hitting .300 that year) that it finally started to click for him, that he realized "Oh this is what you're supposed to do!" Frank has gone so far as to give Walt a lot of credit for his success. Another example is Charlie Lau who Walt was a disciple of. Now, we haven't had the amount of young guys coming through our ranks as we had when Hrniak (again, sorry about the spelling) was our coach, but I haven't heard anyone refer to Walker's system of hitting. I haven't heard of guys subscribing to his system and then becoming better players because of it. One might argue that this is because most of our players with Walk as hitting coach have been veterans, but even DJ had been playing for seven years by the time he came over.

The other thing is the mental approach, my dad was talking to a friend of his who worked for the Cardinals in the front office and they were talking about Dave Duncan and how it is that he can turn so many pitchers' careers around. My dad's friend said it had little to do with mechanics that Duncan is only a fairly mediocre coach when it comes to addressing and fixing mechanics, but what Duncan is incredible at is the mental aspect. He gets pitchers to totally believe in what he wants them to do, for example he got Dave Stewart to trust him to start throwing his forkball more often once he came over to Oakland and Stewart went from being a fairly mediocre pitcher to a 20 game winner. My dad's friend said that working with Duncan is almost like working in a cult, he makes you believe (although Duncan has had some degree of failure).

We have heard from Lip that Sox hitters do work on the fundamental stuff in the cages and during BP and a guy like Brian Anderson was able to do EVERYTHING that Walker suggested they do and they looked like a fairly sound team. The problem was that once the game started everything that Walker said went flying out the window. If that's the case, then it would certainly seem to suggest that Walker struggles in making people believe or at least subscribe to his system. Why that is, I'm not entirely too sure and whether or not that reflects poorly on Walker or on the hitters is up for debate. I think it probably does a little for both, but I think it says something that Hrniak was so able to convince guys in his system and get results (out of guys like DJ, Julio Franco, Framk Thomas (though Frank would hit regardless of who was coach) and Robin Ventura) where as Walker hasn't done that.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-23-2010, 12:44 PM
I think the Fire Walker thing is going on because this has been going on with different players from different years (2006-2010). Like if it was one year or one player but people say it HAS to be Greg because this team hasn't been hitting like they should every year and with all these different players.

JC456
04-23-2010, 12:50 PM
You left out "incomplete information."

I am not taking sides in this debate because I know that I don't know enough to. I don't know what Walker teaches (or tries to teach) so I have no way of knowing whether it's his fault. Some of you state your opinion of what he teaches as fact based on your perception of what the players are doing. In other words, if you see a lot of guys trying to pull the ball and hit home runs, you jump to the conclusion that's what Walker tells them to do. I have no idea if that's true or not, so I don't come to any conclusion about it.

I'm unhappy about the way things are going, but I don't let it make me angry.

The only thing I know is the players are not producing, and I doubt all of these players are going anywhere soon. We are the fans, and many are not happy with the product on the field. So does everyone do nothing? Heck no, they moan and groan on outlets like this message board. Whether or not anyone is directly responsible for any of the bad play isn't the point. The point is no one is doing anything about it and that I think is what most are moaning and groaning about.

Again right now the facts are this team cannot hit. Period. I'm just asking for the players to try something different, it can't be worst than going 0 for 5 like they're doing now. A change would be, if a player swings a lot at first pitches, take that pitch, if a batter never swings at a first pitch, swing at all first pitches. At least it would look like they're doing something to try and get out of their slump. Alas, all I see is the same at bat, at bat after at bat, and that is f... boring. It's even predictable.

BTW, that's what I'd expect a coach to help with! Give the players something to try differently and see if it works.

One more thing, I don't see our players talking to one another about the guy on the mound. For instance: he's throwing first pitch fastballs, or curves; or on 0 and 2 he'll put it in the dirt so don't be too aggressive. Things like that I don't read about or see happening. That is soooo important to success. It's a battle and the players are supposed to be figuring out what the pitcher is thinking or used to doing. And if they're not going to do that, than go up to the plate with a plan on what they're going to do. Our players look like a bunch free swinging willie nillies up there swinging for the fences on every pitch. And that my friends is on the Manager.

:whiner:

captain54
04-23-2010, 01:19 PM
If that's the case, then it would certainly seem to suggest that Walker struggles in making people believe or at least subscribe to his system. Why that is, I'm not entirely too sure and whether or not that reflects poorly on Walker or on the hitters is up for debate.

It's not really even a debate if you check in with Ranger and follow the logic of what he has been saying on this topic over the course of the discussion.

Ultimately, the all powerful White Sox organization has deemed his position as not crucial to the offensive production, or lack thereof.

So again, as in years past Ranger, fans will speak with their attendance and TV viewing, radio listening, etc..and I guarantee if this continues, it's not gonna be pretty.

WhiteSoxFTW
04-23-2010, 01:22 PM
I really don't care who is to blame. Something needs to be done with this team. Anything! If Greg Walker needs to be an early scapegoat, so be it. If he truly is a good hitting coach, he will get another job. This is professional sports, and coaches are let go all the time.

I think a good point was made in the Cowley article in terms of payroll. If this time is really bad and butts aren't in the seats come this summer...this season will have far-reaching affects for years to come. You have to make the fans believe that you are at least trying to turn the season around. If not, we could very well have an even worse roster next year.

Ranger
04-23-2010, 01:32 PM
I can't respond to every single post because that would take the afternoon, but I will just say this:

It's apparent the desire for Walker to be fired is rooted in pure emotion and anger. "The team is bad, somebody has to pay, somebody has to do something." That's all it is and all it ever will be. People like accountability because it makes them feel better, even if only temporarily and even if they have the wrong guy. Somebody needs to be sacrificed to satisfy the masses. Even if nothing changes, it makes people feel better. This is human nature. It just so happens that I don't believe in that.

Some here have even admitted that they don't know exactly what it is that Walker does, all they know is that the results aren't there. But they fail to realize that there is minimal connection between the actions and the results. It just simply doesn't work like fans think it works. I don't know how else to put it.

Like I said last night on the show, if I thought it would help to fire the guy and bring in someone new, I'd be all for it.

Now, let me address:

Ranger -

It can't be both. Either the coaching or something within the clubhouse is causing a team with enough talent to underperform, and nothing has been done in 4 years to improve the situation, OR the talent level of the team is not where it needs to be and Kenny is not doing a good job. Limited budget is not an excuse when you have the 7th highest payroll in baseball and Kenny himself created the situation.

Of course, in reality it's a combination of the two, but I don't believe that you really think that neither of them deserves blame and that it all should rest with the players. So, which do you think is the bigger problem - is the coaching not working with the talent properly, or is Kenny not supplying enough talent?

Two things can be simultaneously true: A GM can be a good one, but can also have made recent deals that haven't worked in his favor. That doesn't mean he needs to be replaced or that he isn't good at his job.

However, yes, I do blame the players. This is on them because nobody can do their jobs for them.

And for those of you that think I'm evading some sort of backlash by placing almost all of the blame on players, you should know that I am in the clubhouse for every game and I have to face these guys, too. Quite a few of them listen.

Ranger,

I completely understand what you're saying about Walker and how he knows what all these guys are doing wrong and that he can tell you within seconds of what each guys problems are. I don't know if all hitting coaches can do this.

My question is this, what are his methods to correct those flaws? Is he doing something with each guy to get him out of those bad habits? Is he calling on other people to help him figure out what might work for each hitter? Maybe soft toss will help clear up one hitters flaw, maybe extra cage time... I dont' know.... Are you seeing him try and think outside of the box to fix these guys? Whatever his methods of working through these flaws is not working. That is not a slight on Walkers intelligence or if he knows hitting. Maybe he just doesn't know what works with our hitters to get them out of their funk.

Thats why I think his job should be on the line. It's not about recognizing someones mechanical issues, it's about FIXING them. Like you said, even the hitters can tell you what is wrong, pretty much anyone that is at their level should be able to tell you whats wrong with thier swing. How do you fix it? That is where you're hitting coach comes in. I want our franchise to do everything in their power to turn this around, if that means bring in someone to help, even if that makes Walker upset, then we do it!

I'm not concerned about whether he's upset or not. But like I said earlier, I just don't believe in firing coaches to make scapegoats and that's all he would be.

As far as mechanics, recognition IS the most important step. Once a flaw has been recognized, it's up to the player to make the changes. That's the hard part and that's the part that is impossible for the coach to control. "Here's what you're doing wrong, here's what you need to do, but I can't swing the bat for you."

JC456
04-23-2010, 01:34 PM
I really don't care who is to blame. Something needs to be done with this team. Anything! If Greg Walker needs to be an early scapegoat, so be it. If he truly is a good hitting coach, he will get another job. This is professional sports, and coaches are let go all the time.

I think a good point was made in the Cowley article in terms of payroll. If this time is really bad and butts aren't in the seats come this summer...this season will have far-reaching affects for years to come. You have to make the fans believe that you are at least trying to turn the season around. If not, we could very well have an even worse roster next year.

AMEN! Do something. That's all I'm asking. It may not make a difference, but at least one could say they did something.
:scratch:

Ranger
04-23-2010, 01:36 PM
I think a good point was made in the Cowley article in terms of payroll. If this time is really bad and butts aren't in the seats come this summer...this season will have far-reaching affects for years to come. You have to make the fans believe that you are at least trying to turn the season around. If not, we could very well have an even worse roster next year.

Now, THIS actually makes some sense because it's possible there could be an effect in this regard. The appearance of making changes satisfies the fanbase. However, I question whether or not that "appearance" would be potent enough to keep people coming back to the park if their weren't actual results on the field. I don't think it would make a difference.

Nellie_Fox
04-23-2010, 01:37 PM
AMEN! Do something. That's all I'm asking. It may not make a difference, but at least one could say they did something.
:scratch:Do something, even if it's wrong. :rolleyes:

You know the old saying: general managers who listen to the fans will soon be sitting with them.

It's Dankerific
04-23-2010, 01:39 PM
In summary, 2005.

mcfish
04-23-2010, 01:39 PM
So, we can all agree that the Sox offense has been unacceptable for 3 out of the last 4 years. What I don't get is the people advocating for the status quo. Maybe firing Walker will have no effect. Maybe firing Ozzie wouldn't work. Maybe replacing Kenny wouldn't make things better. Certainly none of those options will make everything magically better overnight.

However, I can tell you with some certainty that doing nothing is going to result in more of the same. So hopefully someone within the organization is trying to implement some sort of change, whether that be in philosophy or personnel.Really? So all these guys will continue to hit well below their career norms and it's all due to Walker?

Beckham .228
Pierre.215
TCM .212
AJP .167
TCQ .163

Man this new hitting coach better be Frank Thomas and Babe Ruth rolled into one and able to actively play if that's the case.
Is this supposed to be a reply to my post? Did you click on the wrong "Quote" button?

My post implies it, but I will very clearly state it now: the problem is not that Beckham is hitting .228 and 4 other starters are hitting below the Mendoza line this year. Of course I don't believe that they will continue to be that bad. The problem is that the White Sox offense has performed well below acceptable levels for 3 of the the last 4 years. (It's debatable what is "acceptable", but not whether the Sox have achieved it 3 of the last 4 years.) The problem is that given this, nothing is changing. There is no reason to believe that things will improve beyond a few guys coming closer to their career norms than they are at now.

My post did clearly state that replacing the hitting coach would not change things magically overnight. It also stated that it might not even work. Finally, it said that leaving things as they have been for the last 4 years will result in more of the same, so I advocated a change in philosophy or personnel (which of course would also bring about a change in philosophy).

mcfish
04-23-2010, 01:55 PM
Two things can be simultaneously true: A GM can be a good one, but can also have made recent deals that haven't worked in his favor. That doesn't mean he needs to be replaced or that he isn't good at his job.

However, yes, I do blame the players. This is on them because nobody can do their jobs for them.

And for those of you that think I'm evading some sort of backlash by placing almost all of the blame on players, you should know that I am in the clubhouse for every game and I have to face these guys, too. Quite a few of them listen.

If the blame is on the players, it needs to be on Kenny too. Again, this isn't a new issue this year - if it were, then blaming the players would be 100% ok. When it gets into year four and five, it becomes apparent that the roster simply isn't able to produce offensively like it needs to be able to, and none of the changes Kenny has made to try to correct that problem have worked. Doesn't mean he's not trying or needs to be fired, or even bad as a GM (because he has done a fantastic job in some areas - no one's complaining about the fifth starter anymore).

Also, I want to throw this out there because of all the flak you're taking in this thread in particular... I do respect the job you do and I think you're good at it. I also very much respect the fact that you come on here and state your opinion and engage in debate pretty regularly. It's great to have an "insider's" opinion and knowledge. You don't have to do that for your job - it's definitely above and beyond. Thanks!

PhillipsBubba
04-23-2010, 02:06 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how many people get bent out of shape when their post is misinterpreted because they didn't use teal and then know we use teal for that very reason.

I consider it an honor to have amazed you...

PhillipsBubba
04-23-2010, 02:10 PM
No need to actually try to understand the issues that actually are going on or try to figure out how to fix it in any other way than the one you have already accepted as the only solution.



How naive....the only thing sports franchise big shots understand is tickets sold and broadcasts watched.

The only opinion they care about is the one that says the suck too much to waste time and MONEY on!

Jim Shorts
04-23-2010, 02:12 PM
How naive....the only thing sports franchise big shots understand is tickets sold and broadcasts watched.

The only opinion they care about is the one that says the suck too much to waste time and MONEY on!


That's why Jerry cried when Paulie gave him the game ball after the parade...


Your use of the word naive in this post is ironical

khan
04-23-2010, 02:12 PM
If the blame is on the players, it needs to be on Kenny too.

IMO, "the blame" should be on KW for allowing Ozzie to have as much say in the construction of the team while allocating insufficient resources to the offense/excessive resources to the pitching staff,

AND

Ozzie for being such a poor judge of talent and an at-times questionable deployer of said talent,

AND

The players for being bad at their jobs,

AND [perhaps]

Walker for not positively impacting the hitters.


Something good had better happen soon, or the truck will HAVE TO be backed up, and the Cell will be a ghost town by mid-June.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 02:20 PM
I consider it an honor to have amazed you...

Yeah, I'm not easily impressed and WOW A BLUE CAR

SI1020
04-23-2010, 02:23 PM
I respect Ranger too and it's certainly very good of him to lay it on the line again on fan message boards. For me it is not about the desire to see someone twisting in the wind, having had that experience a few times myself in life. It's about an essentially lousy baseball team going back to July of 06 (please don't beat me up about the one and done 08 team) that keeps making the same mistakes again and again. Other teams do the little things to win games. Other teams don't cave in every time they face a pitcher they've never seen before who has an ERA in the stratosphere. There has to be accountability across the board. It can't be all laid on the players. Especially since the players come and go but the problems and mistakes never seem to do. It's time to sweep the broom. I don't want to see this team go into a long dark tunnel like the Orioles, Royals and Pirates.

JC456
04-23-2010, 02:47 PM
I respect Ranger too and it's certainly very good of him to lay it on the line again on fan message boards. For me it is not about the desire to see someone twisting in the wind, having had that experience a few times myself in life. It's about an essentially lousy baseball team going back to July of 06 (please don't beat me up about the one and done 08 team) that keeps making the same mistakes again and again. Other teams do the little things to win games. Other teams don't cave in every time they face a pitcher they've never seen before who has an ERA in the stratosphere. There has to be accountability across the board. It can't be all laid on the players. Especially since the players come and go but the problems and mistakes never seem to do. It's time to sweep the broom. I don't want to see this team go into a long dark tunnel like the Orioles, Royals and Pirates.

I have my flashlight!:o:

skobabe8
04-23-2010, 02:49 PM
Yeah, I'm not easily impressed and WOW A BLUE CAR
:rolling:

guillen4life13
04-23-2010, 02:53 PM
I was thinking about this last night, from Ranger's definition what a hitting coach is supposed to do is look at film, give them the info on the starting pitcher and look at some mechanical stuff; really this sounds like the kind of thing anyone with any experience with major league baseball can do. If it's that simple then keeping Greg Walker shouldn't hurt, but then again nor should firing him. I know that Walker isn't going to be able to take a guy like Pierre and all of a sudden make him a guy with a .350 OBP and a .800 OPS, just as I know he won't turn a guy like Konerko into a guy who slap the ball the other way for hit and runs. Really no hitting coach can do that, those guys are what they are.

There are two things that strike me about Walker as a hitting coach, first is when Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura were coming up through the ranks they were coached by Walt Hrinak (forgive my spelling) who had a system when it came to hitting and made his hitters believe in his system. Even DJ has mentioned that when he came over in 1994 (he wound up hitting .300 that year) that it finally started to click for him, that he realized "Oh this is what you're supposed to do!" Frank has gone so far as to give Walt a lot of credit for his success. Another example is Charlie Lau who Walt was a disciple of. Now, we haven't had the amount of young guys coming through our ranks as we had when Hrniak (again, sorry about the spelling) was our coach, but I haven't heard anyone refer to Walker's system of hitting. I haven't heard of guys subscribing to his system and then becoming better players because of it. One might argue that this is because most of our players with Walk as hitting coach have been veterans, but even DJ had been playing for seven years by the time he came over.

The other thing is the mental approach, my dad was talking to a friend of his who worked for the Cardinals in the front office and they were talking about Dave Duncan and how it is that he can turn so many pitchers' careers around. My dad's friend said it had little to do with mechanics that Duncan is only a fairly mediocre coach when it comes to addressing and fixing mechanics, but what Duncan is incredible at is the mental aspect. He gets pitchers to totally believe in what he wants them to do, for example he got Dave Stewart to trust him to start throwing his forkball more often once he came over to Oakland and Stewart went from being a fairly mediocre pitcher to a 20 game winner. My dad's friend said that working with Duncan is almost like working in a cult, he makes you believe (although Duncan has had some degree of failure).

We have heard from Lip that Sox hitters do work on the fundamental stuff in the cages and during BP and a guy like Brian Anderson was able to do EVERYTHING that Walker suggested they do and they looked like a fairly sound team. The problem was that once the game started everything that Walker said went flying out the window. If that's the case, then it would certainly seem to suggest that Walker struggles in making people believe or at least subscribe to his system. Why that is, I'm not entirely too sure and whether or not that reflects poorly on Walker or on the hitters is up for debate. I think it probably does a little for both, but I think it says something that Hrniak was so able to convince guys in his system and get results (out of guys like DJ, Julio Franco, Framk Thomas (though Frank would hit regardless of who was coach) and Robin Ventura) where as Walker hasn't done that.

As far as hitting coaches and philosophies go, there's a reason Hriniak was able to do this.

Anyone more knowledgeable can feel free to correct me, but here is how I understand it.

There are two major schools of hitting: the Ted Williams and Charlie Lau methods. Lau heavily influenced Walt Hriniak, who, in turn, influenced Greg Walker. However, Walker is aware that not all hitters can actually succeed using that hitting method, plus most of the hitters he works with are veterans with their own methods and philosophies.

Hriniak had the opportunity to work with many more players who were just starting their careers, like Thomas, Ventura, Walker, etc., who were physically able to hit that way, and were still young enough to be pliable.

Now, there are two reasons I would, in any way, advocate the firing of Greg Walker.

The first is precedent: the last two times a Sox hitting coach was fired midseason (Von Joshua and Gary Ward), the offense turned around. This is, of course, the scapegoat method. It could either backfire and completely deflate the team, or it could let the whole team know that their former hitting coach is unemployed due to their lack of production.

The second: If the Sox can bring in a highly respected figure to be hitting coach (George Brett or, to a lesser extent, Robin Ventura come to mind), it may cause the players to really heed what the coach is telling them.

I don't necessarily blame Walker for the results, but I want SOMETHING to light a fire under this team. Maybe even a brawl. I'm being completely serious. I hate to see fighting, but as long as no one gets seriously hurt or suspended for a truly significant amount of time, something big like that could really change the whole season.

thomas35forever
04-23-2010, 02:59 PM
Poor Ranger. Just when he thinks WSI is a safe haven from all the stupid callers on the postgame shows, he starts to experience it here too.

JC456
04-23-2010, 03:01 PM
If the blame is on the players, it needs to be on Kenny too. Again, this isn't a new issue this year - if it were, then blaming the players would be 100% ok. When it gets into year four and five, it becomes apparent that the roster simply isn't able to produce offensively like it needs to be able to, and none of the changes Kenny has made to try to correct that problem have worked. Doesn't mean he's not trying or needs to be fired, or even bad as a GM (because he has done a fantastic job in some areas - no one's complaining about the fifth starter anymore).

Also, I want to throw this out there because of all the flak you're taking in this thread in particular... I do respect the job you do and I think you're good at it. I also very much respect the fact that you come on here and state your opinion and engage in debate pretty regularly. It's great to have an "insider's" opinion and knowledge. You don't have to do that for your job - it's definitely above and beyond. Thanks!

The problem isn't blame. It is a simple question to ask each player. I can't do that, but if I could I would ask them; what they have done in an effort to make improvements at the plate. I made some points earlier in the thread. Things they could do.

First: Take the first pitch or not--those who have been start swinging, and those who have been swinging stop it. There is a philosphy from the team that they work the pitcher. What the heck does that mean? Work the pitcher favors the pitcher. I see our guys taking pitches down the middle of the plate only to swing at those in the dirt. That philosophy is wrong. The batter has the advantage when runners are on base, at least all other teams it seems to work that way. Not the Sox, nope they have to work the pitcher.

Second: go to the plate with an idea on what you're going to hit and where. I see these players swinging for the fences when all that is needed is a simple single. They end up popping up or striking out or worst hitting into double plays.

Third: If they are looking at a spot to hit, change, try and hit at a fielder and see what happens. Our players hit balls right at fielders now.

I'm not a hitting coach, but at least I can think of things to try. THAT's ALL I'M ASKING. TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT! It's been a little over three years of the same boring play.:bandance:

kittle42
04-23-2010, 03:06 PM
I don't know why everyone is panicking! Under the radar!

WhiteSoxFTW
04-23-2010, 03:06 PM
Somebody needs to learn when to use and when not to use the dancing banana. Lol.

SI1020
04-23-2010, 03:07 PM
Poor Ranger. Just when he thinks WSI is a safe haven from all the stupid callers on the postgame shows, he starts to experience it here too. Anyone who disagrees is stupid? Regardless of evidence, interest in the team, writing ability among others? This post rubs me the wrong way.

doublem23
04-23-2010, 03:09 PM
Anyone who disagrees is stupid? Regardless of evidence, interest in the team, writing ability among others? This post rubs me the wrong way.

Seriously. I'm obviously biased since I'm in the "stupid" group, but most of the concerns have been well grounded in this thread. Though, I think the Sox's pitiful level of play has been relatively soul crushing. No need to get crazy or waste energy on them, they're just terrible.

WhiteSoxFTW
04-23-2010, 03:17 PM
Now, THIS actually makes some sense because it's possible there could be an effect in this regard. The appearance of making changes satisfies the fanbase. However, I question whether or not that "appearance" would be potent enough to keep people coming back to the park if their weren't actual results on the field. I don't think it would make a difference.

Yay, Ranger said I make sense. Am I the first one in this thread? Lol. But, I digress...

I completely agree with you that if the said change does nothing to help the on the field results, then it won't make a difference and the gate numbers would keep decreasing. But, there seems to be a pretty decent statisical chance that the status quo won't help much either. (Hell, if the play doesn't improve quickly, nothing short of an Adrian Gonzalez, Albert Pujols, or A-Rod trade is going to bring the fans back.) The White Sox are 6 games behind a pretty damn good Twins team that plays the Royals this weekend, and we have a pretty decent opponent in Seattle coming in. We could be 8 or 9 games back after this weekend.

The White Sox wouldn't be the first time in the history of sports to make a coaching change mid-season to try to shake things up and keep their fanbases interested; nor would they be the last. Hell, sometimes it even works. :shrug:

JC456
04-23-2010, 03:21 PM
Somebody needs to learn when to use and when not to use the dancing banana. Lol.

LOL::bandance: now they even have protocols for the dancing banana!

voodoochile
04-23-2010, 03:25 PM
How naive....the only thing sports franchise big shots understand is tickets sold and broadcasts watched.

The only opinion they care about is the one that says the suck too much to waste time and MONEY on!

What? That reply doesn't even make sense in the context of the post I replied to.

You actually interested in a conversation or you just trolling, PB?

jabrch
04-23-2010, 03:56 PM
Anyone who disagrees is stupid? Regardless of evidence, interest in the team, writing ability among others? This post rubs me the wrong way.

Nope - there is a difference between cogent disagreement with a point, and blatant stupidity.

Dub25
04-23-2010, 03:57 PM
Why do so many of you absolutely refuse to place blame on the guys with the sticks? It's just totally absurd.

By the way, Rudy Jaramillo (a fan favorite around here) is currently overseeing one of the lowest-scoring teams in the NL. How can this possibly be explained?

LIke I said in the original post, the Cubs are slumping.

SI1020
04-23-2010, 04:14 PM
Nope - there is a difference between cogent disagreement with a point, and blatant stupidity. So are you going to tell me who fits into what category or should I just go sit in the corner?

jabrch
04-23-2010, 04:16 PM
So are you going to tell me who fits into what category or should I just go sit in the corner?

Since when am I the arbiter of stupid? That's up to each person to judge. I have my own opinions - but I'll keep them to myself. Just read these boards - if you don't find stupid, you aren't looking hard enough.

Medford Bobby
04-23-2010, 04:39 PM
First, thanks for taking the time to go dig through old posts. That's some real research. Second, you completely ignored the most important part of what I said. Hitters are only going to be able to do what they're capable of doing.
Bingo!! If J. D. was still a viable hitter, he'd have a major league contract.

Walker could not res-erect Dye, as Dye may not be the same hitter as he was 3 seasons ago.

Ken Griffey is only with Seattle as he still brings fans out, but no longer a 30 plus home run hitter.....:(:

JB98
04-23-2010, 04:44 PM
It's apparent the desire for Walker to be fired is rooted in pure emotion and anger.

Actually, it's rooted in nearly four years of ****ty offense.

I'll shut up when the team starts producing. I promise.

jabrch
04-23-2010, 04:51 PM
Actually, it's rooted in nearly four years of ****ty offense.

I'll shut up when the team starts producing. I promise.

And firing Walk will have that effect? I can't draw a line from firing Walker to these guys hitting better unless you can show me what Walker isn't doing that some other guy would do differently. Nobody has yet explained to me what a good hitting coach does that Walker doesn't that would make firing him a productive excercise.

Crestani
04-23-2010, 04:54 PM
Do something, even if it's wrong. :rolleyes:

You know the old saying: general managers who listen to the fans will soon be sitting with them.


Or banished to the broadcast booth..!!:whiner:

JB98
04-23-2010, 05:10 PM
And firing Walk will have that effect? I can't draw a line from firing Walker to these guys hitting better unless you can show me what Walker isn't doing that some other guy would do differently. Nobody has yet explained to me what a good hitting coach does that Walker doesn't that would make firing him a productive excercise.

OK, let's for the sake of argument say you're right and it isn't Walker's fault. Then, we must have bad hitters who can't execute. Time to fire KW, because he's the one who assembled this team (and last year's team) and gave Ozzie and Walker nothing to work with. I'm willing to entertain that argument, if you like.

If KW, Ozzie, Walker and everybody are all doing such a great job, how come we've been below .500 since midseason of 2006? From the All-Star break of 2006 to this day, the Sox record is 278-299. That's nearly 600 ballgames of profound mediocrity.

I'm tired of being mediocre.

jabrch
04-23-2010, 05:22 PM
OK, let's for the sake of argument say you're right and it isn't Walker's fault.

Did I say that? I said that I don't see how firing Walker makes it better.

Then, we must have bad hitters who can't execute. Time to fire KW, because he's the one who assembled this team (and last year's team) and gave Ozzie and Walker nothing to work with. I'm willing to entertain that argument, if you like.

I didn't propose that either. If you want to have a Fire KW discussion - bring it up. But it isn't one or the other...It could be neither or both - right? Let's have each discussion independent and not trap ourselves into believing that we have to do one of those two items.

If KW, Ozzie, Walker and everybody are all doing such a great job,

JB - who said they are doing a great job? Are you talking to me? I am not saying that... Why are you so dead set on misrepresenting my position? Does that strengthen yours?

how come we've been below .500 since midseason of 2006? From the All-Star break of 2006 to this day, the Sox record is 278-299. That's nearly 600 ballgames of profound mediocrity.

We had a 90 win season, a 89 win team that made the post season, and a ****ty team. We only really had one mediocre team - if results are what you use to measure.

I'm tired of being mediocre.

Does firing Walker change that?

CLR01
04-23-2010, 05:22 PM
If KW, Ozzie, Walker and everybody are all doing such a great job, how come we've been below .500 since midseason of 2006? From the All-Star break of 2006 to this day, the Sox record is 278-299. That's nearly 600 ballgames of profound mediocrity.

I'm tired of being mediocre.


We're just waiting for the weather to warm up. Once it does look out.

mcfish
04-23-2010, 05:25 PM
Does firing Walker change that?Does the status quo?

dickallen15
04-23-2010, 05:30 PM
Mark Buehrle 4.56
Freddy Garcia 8.10
Jake Peavy 7.66
Gavin Floyd 9.00

If a guy's batting average is a reflection of the hitting coach, why is Don Cooper getting a pass? Doesn't Randy Williams have quite a few more walks than innings pitched as well? That has to be Cooper's fault doesn't it? A good hitting coach could make Stevie Wonder a .300 hitter.

Why is it when guys can't hit and let's face it 28-100 is doing pretty well, its on the hitting coach, but no one ever blames the pitching coach when pitchers are getting lit up like pinball machines.

jabrch
04-23-2010, 05:31 PM
Does the status quo?

McFish - I have no idea. I have no idea if things will get better or not. I broke my crystal balls. I just think the talent we are putting on the field is better than it has played.

I think TVQ is better than he has hit.
I think AJ is better than he has hit.
I think Pierre is ....
I think Gordon...
I think Alexei...

Will they hit better? I have no ****ing clue. I just have no idea how to draw a line between a new hitting coach and all those guys hitting to their career averages. (which if they had done so far, we'd probably be over .500)

Really - I am not close to smart enough to know all the answers. I'm just not a fan of change for change's sake. I'd like to know how making a move...and investment...is going to potentially impact a situation before going ahead and doing it.

BainesHOF
04-23-2010, 05:45 PM
I can't respond to every single post because that would take the afternoon, but I will just say this:

It's apparent the desire for Walker to be fired is rooted in pure emotion and anger. "The team is bad, somebody has to pay, somebody has to do something." That's all it is and all it ever will be.

Oh boy. That's right, ignore some of the well-written posts filled with facts and then dismiss them with a ridiculously general statement. But, hey, you can walk in the clubhouse today, right?

voodoochile
04-23-2010, 05:58 PM
We had a 90 win season, a 89 win team that made the post season, and a ****ty team. We only really had one mediocre team - if results are what you use to measure.

That's the problem with using aggregate stats. It ignores the end results. You know how many fan bases would kill to be the Sox since mid-season 2006?

Yeah, I know, we should and do hold the team to a higher standard, but honestly since mid-season 2006 the Sox have won a division title and just missed the playoffs in a year when two other teams in their division got redhot.

And the current season is 10% over. In the NFL they wouldn't have even completed their second game yet and several players including two pitchers expected to be aces well under-performing their career norms and current expectations.

Yes, if the starters continue to struggle and talented hitters continue to not perform, this team is ****ed 6 ways from Sunday, but... (and like mine, it's huge)... that's a bet I'd be willing to take...

MisterB
04-23-2010, 06:01 PM
So are you going to tell me who fits into what category or should I just go sit in the corner?

Some posters on this board have played baseball on an amateur level.

A few have played as far as college.

A couple have actually played professionally.

None of us has been a major leaguer.

Any opinions we have on the running of a Major League baseball franchise are made based on varying degrees of profound ignorance.

Basically, we're all just idiots on a message board.

guillen4life13
04-23-2010, 07:56 PM
Some posters on this board have played baseball on an amateur level.

A few have played as far as college.

A couple have actually played professionally.

None of us has been a major leaguer.

Any opinions we have on the running of a Major League baseball franchise are made based on varying degrees of profound ignorance.

Basically, we're all just idiots on a message board.

QFT. But don't tell the rest of them unless you want to shatter their illusions of grandeur.

On second thought... shout it loud and proud.

I look at the sport purely as a fan who happens to have a somewhat strong education in statistics (Industrial Engineering could reasonably be called Statistical Applications). I only played Pony league, and I was admittedly horrible. I can make legit excuses for it, but it doesn't change the facts.

I was one of the guys who was saying that it's too early to freak out (I even wrote an article in Bleacherreport.com with such an argument). But game by game, tension grows.

We have all seen similar stories before where the Sox take themselves out the race in April. I understand that teams go through slumps, but I need to see some sign that they will bounce back. Now I'm starting to feel like, best case, this team can end the year in 2nd place in the ALC. I am reminded of the 2001 or 2003 seasons.

If the team is still well under .500 when June starts, I will advocate a fire sale.

Voodoo: I usually agree with you, but your analogy to football does not hold water here. Baseball is a game of odds. Football (and basketball) are a lot more absolute. In other words, it's almost a given that the better team will win. In baseball, that isn't necessarily the case. Teams are much more prone performing below their potential.

I wholeheartedly think that the Twins are the best team in the ALC. I think they have a legitimate case for being the best team in the AL, period. But I think that the Sox have what it takes to beat them, and at the very least, they ought to give them good competition.

Even though it's only April, I'm starting to see brown on the silver and black bedspread. Are they going to get cleaned or will more spots show up?

The problem right now is that the Sox are beating themselves. Based on past performance, they should at least be in second place right now. Instead they are in last place. There's a lot of time left, but when does the team turn around and become a consistent winner?

At this point, I don't even know who to blame.

I just want to see my favorite team in all sports start winning. As long as no one gets hurt in the process, I don't care how the change happens. I just want it to happen.

Thome_Fan
04-23-2010, 10:05 PM
Even though it's only April, I'm starting to see brown on the silver and black bedspread. Are they going to get cleaned or will more spots show up?



:rolling:

WhiteSox5187
04-23-2010, 10:09 PM
Some posters on this board have played baseball on an amateur level.

A few have played as far as college.

A couple have actually played professionally.

None of us has been a major leaguer.

Any opinions we have on the running of a Major League baseball franchise are made based on varying degrees of profound ignorance.

Basically, we're all just idiots on a message board.

Ahem, my shortstop in 2010 The Show would beg to differ!
Has Walker told them to just hit the "x" button?

manders_01
04-23-2010, 10:19 PM
Well Ranger, you've taken a ton of **** in the thread on top of what you go through on the radio. Here's to a calm night on the airwaves! :gulp:

doublem23
04-23-2010, 10:40 PM
Ahem, my shortstop in 2010 The Show would beg to differ!
Has Walker told them to just hit the "x" button?

He should tell them to turn the difficulty down.

russ99
04-23-2010, 10:42 PM
I can't respond to every single post because that would take the afternoon, but I will just say this:

It's apparent the desire for Walker to be fired is rooted in pure emotion and anger. "The team is bad, somebody has to pay, somebody has to do something." That's all it is and all it ever will be. People like accountability because it makes them feel better, even if only temporarily and even if they have the wrong guy. Somebody needs to be sacrificed to satisfy the masses. Even if nothing changes, it makes people feel better. This is human nature. It just so happens that I don't believe in that.

Some here have even admitted that they don't know exactly what it is that Walker does, all they know is that the results aren't there. But they fail to realize that there is minimal connection between the actions and the results. It just simply doesn't work like fans think it works. I don't know how else to put it.

Like I said last night on the show, if I thought it would help to fire the guy and bring in someone new, I'd be all for it.

Now, let me address:

Two things can be simultaneously true: A GM can be a good one, but can also have made recent deals that haven't worked in his favor. That doesn't mean he needs to be replaced or that he isn't good at his job.

However, yes, I do blame the players. This is on them because nobody can do their jobs for them.

And for those of you that think I'm evading some sort of backlash by placing almost all of the blame on players, you should know that I am in the clubhouse for every game and I have to face these guys, too. Quite a few of them listen.

I'm not concerned about whether he's upset or not. But like I said earlier, I just don't believe in firing coaches to make scapegoats and that's all he would be.

As far as mechanics, recognition IS the most important step. Once a flaw has been recognized, it's up to the player to make the changes. That's the hard part and that's the part that is impossible for the coach to control. "Here's what you're doing wrong, here's what you need to do, but I can't swing the bat for you."

Dude, awesome post.

There certainly seems to be a witch-hunt for Walker's job be it right or wrong. What people forget is the times in the last few seasons when the Sox hit very well. The dude rarely gets credit, but whenever the team struggles he's the scapegoat.

The other issue is peak performance in baseball is all based on confidence and some sort of comfort zone. These guys are obviously out of it, and firing Walker, no matter how it would appease a certain element of the fanbase probably wouldn't make much difference in that regard.

We see signs of Walk's approach to correct this in many at-bats this year, where guys are patient, look at a lot of pitches and try to get in a zone and get the pitches they can hit. It's not like Greg is sitting on the bench twiddling his thumbs all the time.

Sure, many of us were upset that he got that extension last year (myself included) but maybe we could pull for our coaches and players to do well instead of tearing them down and over-analyzing everything...

Don't let these guys get ya down (or the usual insane callers on the radio), and thanks for posting here, many of us appreciate that you do that you don't shy away from tough issues and call 'em as you see 'em.

JB98
04-23-2010, 10:46 PM
Dude, awesome post.

There certainly seems to be a witch-hunt for Walker's job be it right or wrong. What people forget is the times in the last few seasons when the Sox hit very well. The dude rarely gets credit, but whenever the team struggles he's the scapegoat.

The other issue is peak performance in baseball is all based on confidence and some sort of comfort zone. These guys are obviously out of it, and firing Walker, no matter how it would appease a certain element of the fanbase probably wouldn't make much difference in that regard.

We see signs of Walk's approach to correct this in many at-bats this year, where guys are patient, look at a lot of pitches and try to get in a zone and get the pitches they can hit. It's not like Greg is sitting on the bench twiddling his thumbs all the time.

Sure, many of us were upset that he got that extension last year (myself included) but maybe we could pull for our coaches and players to do well instead of tearing them down and over-analyzing everything...

Don't let these guys get ya down (or the usual insane callers on the radio), and thanks for posting here, many of us appreciate that you do that you don't shy away from tough issues and call 'em as you see 'em.

Who says I'm not pulling for them? You think I enjoy losing? Why do you think I've been so pissed at these guys lately?

Lip Man 1
04-23-2010, 10:47 PM
This and that on Chris, a guy I consider a friend.

I think he's pretty sharp when it comes to baseball...he doesn't often fall into the trap like many others of saying something and not having something to back it up with. Some facts, some circumstancial evidence to support his position. I can respect that.

Can he be a tad abrasive at times? Sure...so can we all.

Regarding the opinion that he's a "company man" and won't criticize.

Gang like it or not, his objectivity, like so many of us in the business, IS COMPROMISED.

The Sox have a say if he's going to be working next week, the Sox have a say if he's going to get a paycheck in two weeks. The reality is that under those circumstances neither he nor any of you would be stupid enough to say something along the lines of, "Reinsdorf is a bottom line, cheap bastard of an owner..." or "Ozzie needs to shut up and just do his job..." or "Walker is a nice guy but is incompetent when it comes to his job..."

Nobody on these boards is stupid enough to do that yet some of you expect him to "go off" on the Sox. It doesn't work that way folks.

He has to tread lightly with what he says and how he says it.

Is that fair to him? Absolutely not, but that's reality today in the broadcasting business and it's not going to change.

I think some have to understand that reality when making comments about anybody employed by a college or pro team. The days when TV or radio stations hired and paid broadcasters and the teams they are covering had no say in the matter are long gone. The days when a TV station could tell a pro team to "kiss their ass" regarding something one of their broadcasters said disappeared decades ago.

Lip

canOcorn
04-23-2010, 10:55 PM
This and that on Chris, a guy I consider a friend.

I think he's pretty sharp when it comes to baseball...he doesn't often fall into the trap like many others of saying something and not having something to back it up with. Some facts, some circumstancial evidence to support his position. I can respect that.

Can he be a tad abrasive at times? Sure...so can we all.

Regarding the opinion that he's a "company man" and won't criticize.

Gang like it or not, his objectivity, like so many of us in the business, IS COMPROMISED.

The Sox have a say if he's going to be working next week, the Sox have a say if he's going to get a paycheck in two weeks. The reality is that under those circumstances neither he nor any of you would be stupid enough to say something along the lines of, "Reinsdorf is a bottom line, cheap bastard of an owner..." or "Ozzie needs to shut up and just do his job..." or "Walker is a nice guy but is incompetent when it comes to his job..."

Nobody on these boards is stupid enough to do that yet some of you expect him to "go off" on the Sox. It doesn't work that way folks.

He has to tread lightly with what he says and how he says it.

Is that fair to him? Absolutely not, but that's reality today in the broadcasting business and it's not going to change.

I think some have to understand that reality when making comments about anybody employed by a college or pro team. The days when TV or radio stations hired and paid broadcasters and the teams they are covering had no say in the matter are long gone. The days when a TV station could tell a pro team to "kiss their ass" regarding something one of their broadcasters said disappeared decades ago.

Lip

Exactly, and I didn't think it was anything else. I only think it's an extremely small minority, if any, that think otherwise.

Dub25
04-23-2010, 11:06 PM
Well that's the way pro sports works. Ozzie and his coaching staff raked in the praise for "playing the game right" and "getting the most out of their players" in 2005 when they won it all. Their teams have consistently underperformed for years now, its only fair that they shoulder a lot of the blame.

As for your examples, Jaramillio has been with the Cubs for less than 1 months. And while Prince Fielder has started slow this season, since becoming a full-time player in 2006, he's hit to a tune of .283/.382/.553. The Sox, meanwhile, are well on their way to having one of the worst offenses in the American League for the 3rd season in the last 4. And the very worst part of it is that it's the exact same problems, every year, even with some roster turnover.

Exactly my point when I ranted last night. You my friend, get it. :gulp:

LoveYourSuit
04-23-2010, 11:19 PM
Sure, many of us were upset that he got that extension last year (myself included) but maybe we could pull for our coaches and players to do well instead of tearing them down and over-analyzing everything...



Here we go again with this nonesense.

They told me you were being sarcastic about your post the other day about the reason the White Sox struggling is because fans are too negative, but I guess you were not being sarcastic.


Pulling for players/coaches, being positive, praying to the Gods does not affect the game one bit.

Please stop with this.

jabrch
04-23-2010, 11:24 PM
The reality is that under those circumstances neither he nor any of you would be stupid enough to say something along the lines of, "Reinsdorf is a bottom line, cheap bastard of an owner..." or "Ozzie needs to shut up and just do his job..." or "Walker is a nice guy but is incompetent when it comes to his job..."

Lip

Mark, the other reality may be that he doesn't believe any of those things - and there are good explanations of why.

Dub25
04-23-2010, 11:26 PM
It's trends. Look at the approach the hitters have when they are at the plate. They either try to pull everything or they try to hit the ball as hard as they can. It's the same crap year in and year out. There are guys on the team this year that weren't here last year (Pierre, Teahen, Rios to an extent, etc) and it's the same results. How can an entire team be in a slump at the same time? Why do the Sox ALWAYS have problems with a pitcher they have never faced before? Why do Sox hitters have trouble with breaking balls on the outside part of the plate? These are all trends that the offense has displayed over the past 3-4 years. With roster turnover one would expect different results, but that's not happening.

I'm not solely blaming Walker, but obviously his philosophy or approach simply isn't working. And maybe it's not his philosophy, maybe it's coming from somewhere higher up in the organization or it's coming from Guillen. Whatever it is, it's not working. I'm tired of watching the same crap year to year, it's maddening.

Great post. That's what I attempted to get across.

Dub25
04-23-2010, 11:31 PM
I don't think anyone assumes that. I'd be happy if all the guys on the team were hitting around their career averages. I expected nothing more than an average offense with this group with the ability to get on and move guys over and hit a homerun or drive in runs when needed. of course there are going to be games when the offense struggles, we all know that. But what is happening right now is the same thing that happened last year, and it's maddening that an entire team is basically slumping. If it was a couple guys and the rest were doing their jobs I don't think people would be as frustrated. But what's happening now is just ridiculous.

:)

Frater Perdurabo
04-23-2010, 11:35 PM
Meanwhile, the best hitter on the Sox so far this year is a guy - Jones - in his first year with the club.

Funny, Quentin had his best year in his first year with the club.

Uribe had his best year in his first year with the club. Then he regressed, then he's improved since leaving.

Pods had his best year in his first year with the club. He had his second-best year in the first year of his second tour with the club after having spent the 2008 season elsewhere. Now he's having a monster start to the season elsewhere.

Iguchi had his best year in his first year with the club.

Thome had his best year in his first year with the club.

Rowand had his best year in his first full year with the club. Then he regressed, but he's improved since leaving.

BA was at his best in 2005, his first year with the Sox. Then he sucked.

Mackowiak was better in 2006, his first year with the Sox, than in 2007.

Wise was better in 2008, his first year with the Sox, than he was in 2009.

Beckham was better last year, his rookie year. He's regressed this year so far.

A notable exception is Swisher, who had the worst season of his career in his one year with the Sox. He was better before he came to the Sox, and returned to his career averages after leaving the Sox. Coincidence?

There's a pattern for all of these players. The longer they've been around the White Sox, the worse they've gotten.

Can I get odds on Mark Teahen having a worse 2011 than 2010?

Anyone have an explanation?

mcfish
04-23-2010, 11:40 PM
Mark Buehrle 4.56
Freddy Garcia 8.10
Jake Peavy 7.66
Gavin Floyd 9.00

If a guy's batting average is a reflection of the hitting coach, why is Don Cooper getting a pass? Doesn't Randy Williams have quite a few more walks than innings pitched as well? That has to be Cooper's fault doesn't it? A good hitting coach could make Stevie Wonder a .300 hitter.

Why is it when guys can't hit and let's face it 28-100 is doing pretty well, its on the hitting coach, but no one ever blames the pitching coach when pitchers are getting lit up like pinball machines.How many times does it have to be brought up that in this thread we're not talking about this year's 17 games worth of performance, but instead the past 400 games from 2006 to today? Have the pitching problems you reference above been recurring problems over a period of 4 years?

Dub25
04-23-2010, 11:46 PM
Dub, the post wasn't bad at all. Some people don't understand that it's a message board and that you wrote a message. And you are intitled to based on the rules of the board. So, it wasn't their message. Based on the belittling nature of their replies, it appears they don't agree with you. And instead of just saying that or ignoring it, they instead did what many on message boards do attempt to belittle. However, as I said it is a message board and they have that right. But I degress, I guess they would instead like to continue to watch this BORING team instead of identifying any issues. Most notably pointed out by you the addition of players with quality careers not producing.

I also could debate with you several points, but the message is for Ranger.

Enjoy:gulp:

I think you might mean me but some here have referred to Doublem as Dub. In any event, thanks. Go Sox.

JermaineDye05
04-23-2010, 11:50 PM
Hey, Ranger on a more positive note . . .

Love your postgame show and White Sox weekly. Unfortunately I haven't been able to listen to either lately simply because I don't feel like listening to the multitude of "Fire Walker" comments like these.

Dub25
04-24-2010, 12:04 AM
As far as hitting coaches and philosophies go, there's a reason Hriniak was able to do this.

Anyone more knowledgeable can feel free to correct me, but here is how I understand it.

There are two major schools of hitting: the Ted Williams and Charlie Lau methods. Lau heavily influenced Walt Hriniak, who, in turn, influenced Greg Walker. However, Walker is aware that not all hitters can actually succeed using that hitting method, plus most of the hitters he works with are veterans with their own methods and philosophies.

Hriniak had the opportunity to work with many more players who were just starting their careers, like Thomas, Ventura, Walker, etc., who were physically able to hit that way, and were still young enough to be pliable.

Now, there are two reasons I would, in any way, advocate the firing of Greg Walker.

The first is precedent: the last two times a Sox hitting coach was fired midseason (Von Joshua and Gary Ward), the offense turned around. This is, of course, the scapegoat method. It could either backfire and completely deflate the team, or it could let the whole team know that their former hitting coach is unemployed due to their lack of production.

The second: If the Sox can bring in a highly respected figure to be hitting coach (George Brett or, to a lesser extent, Robin Ventura come to mind), it may cause the players to really heed what the coach is telling them.

I don't necessarily blame Walker for the results, but I want SOMETHING to light a fire under this team. Maybe even a brawl. I'm being completely serious. I hate to see fighting, but as long as no one gets seriously hurt or suspended for a truly significant amount of time, something big like that could really change the whole season.

Hold on a sec... if Lau influenced Hriniak who in turn influenced Walker then why would Ventura, who was coached by Hriniak be a good coach if Walker was fired and Robin was hired? :scratch:

WhiteSox5187
04-24-2010, 12:06 AM
Meanwhile, the best hitter on the Sox so far this year is a guy - Jones - in his first year with the club.

Funny, Quentin had his best year in his first year with the club.

Uribe had his best year in his first year with the club. Then he regressed, then he's improved since leaving.

Pods had his best year in his first year with the club. He had his second-best year in the first year of his second tour with the club after having spent the 2008 season elsewhere. Now he's having a monster start to the season elsewhere.

Iguchi had his best year in his first year with the club.

Thome had his best year in his first year with the club.

Rowand had his best year in his first full year with the club. Then he regressed, but he's improved since leaving.

BA was at his best in 2005, his first year with the Sox. Then he sucked.

Mackowiak was better in 2006, his first year with the Sox, than in 2007.

Wise was better in 2008, his first year with the Sox, than he was in 2009.

Beckham was better last year, his rookie year. He's regressed this year so far.

A notable exception is Swisher, who had the worst season of his career in his one year with the Sox. He was better before he came to the Sox, and returned to his career averages after leaving the Sox. Coincidence?

There's a pattern for all of these players. The longer they've been around the White Sox, the worse they've gotten.

Can I get odds on Mark Teahen having a worse 2011 than 2010?

Anyone have an explanation?

Well, just to play devil's advocate here:

Uribe had a good 2005 (by his standards) in his second year with us and came through big when we lost Crede in 2008. As for how he is doing now, the NL isn't as difficult pitching wise as the AL (in my opinion and arguably the two best pitchers in the NL are on his team). I also might be wrong on this, but I don't think he was an every day player on the Giants last year until Sanchez wound up getting hurt.

Pods' biggest problem was injury. His best asset is his speed which means he can slap the ball the other way and beat out the throw to first, after he tore his groin he just couldn't do that anymore and it's not like he lit the world on fire in Colorado either. In fact, he was released. One could make the argument that his work with Walker in his second go around is what enabled him to have the year he had last year and the start he is having this year.

As for Iguchi, statistically he had his best year for us in 2006 (.281/.352/.422 in '06 vs. .278/.341/.438 in '05). I think what happened in '07 was Pods was hurt and Iguchi benefited from seeing a lot of fastballs with Pods (or at least some base stealing threat) on in front of him, that is why he struggled in '07 but once he went to Philadelphia he started hitting again because he was in a stacked line up. He fell off the face of the earth upon going to San Diego which was again a poor lineup. I think his success was really based upon the fact that the person ahead of him was getting on and the people behind him could smash the beejesus out of the baseball so you HAD to pitch to him. If you could pitch around him, he isn't as dangerous of a player.

As for Rowand, I love the guy to death, but he didn't exactly light the world on fire upon going to Philadelphia. His line in 2006 was fairly consistent with his line in 2005 and which was consistent to his line in 2008 and 2009. In 2007 he was in a contract year and in a lineup that featured the likes of Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, Shane Victorino, and Jimmy Rollins. He was a good hitter surrounded by great hitters and I think that helped raise his game.

Jim Thome was 35 years old when he came over in 2006 and beset by injuries in 2007 and 2008 though in all of his years he posted an OPS of over .800 even though his average continued to drop. But that happens to MOST power hitters as they get older. The same thing happened to Frank Thomas.

Mackowiak was what he was, he was a nice bat off the bench but could be exposed if he were an every day player. In that injury plagued '07 Mack had seen almost as many at bats in 80 games as he had in 112 the previous year, so he was exposed a little bit, but even then he didn't hit THAT badly. He still went .278/.354/.418 which is pretty good for a bench guy.

BA had 35 PA's in 2005 and hit a whopping .176, I think that he just isn't that good of a hitter.

Beckham has had 57 ABs this year, I'm going to wait a while before I call this year a regression. He was probably hitting the same after 57 ABs last year too.

As for Quentin, 2008 might have been a statistical anomaly.

Whew! Long post!

Dub25
04-24-2010, 12:07 AM
Actually, it's rooted in nearly four years of ****ty offense.

I'll shut up when the team starts producing. I promise.

Me 2.

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2010, 12:07 AM
Basically, we're all just idiots on a message board.I know I am.

WhiteSox5187
04-24-2010, 12:08 AM
I know I am.

To quote Socrates, "All I know is that I know nothing."

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2010, 12:11 AM
To quote Socrates, "All I know is that I know nothing."
http://aardvarktheosophy.uk-free.co.uk/bt.jpg

So-Crates was totally awesome!

mcfish
04-24-2010, 12:11 AM
McFish - I have no idea. I have no idea if things will get better or not. I broke my crystal balls. I just think the talent we are putting on the field is better than it has played.

I think TVQ is better than he has hit.
I think AJ is better than he has hit.
I think Pierre is ....
I think Gordon...
I think Alexei...

Will they hit better? I have no ****ing clue. I just have no idea how to draw a line between a new hitting coach and all those guys hitting to their career averages. (which if they had done so far, we'd probably be over .500)

Really - I am not close to smart enough to know all the answers. I'm just not a fan of change for change's sake. I'd like to know how making a move...and investment...is going to potentially impact a situation before going ahead and doing it.I guess we simply have differing viewpoints... I'm not a fan of failing repeatedly, then continuing on the same failing path because everything's just got to get better. (Nice subtle sarcastic jabs, by the way - I must think I have a crystal ball and I must think I'm so smart I know all the answers!)

Also, you continue to read this as if we're only talking about this season. Let everyone ride out the season for all I care, but if this offense performs below league average yet again, it will have been 4 out of the last 5 years. How many seasons does it have to go before we admit that something isn't working?

WhiteSox5187
04-24-2010, 12:13 AM
http://aardvarktheosophy.uk-free.co.uk/bt.jpg

So-Crates was totally awesome!

Now, I've had two semi-intelligent posts in this thread yet THIS is the one that gets quoted. Oh well.

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2010, 12:15 AM
Now, I've had two semi-intelligent posts in this thread yet THIS is the one that gets quoted. Oh well.I was just trying to lighten things up a bit. It was not meant to be a jab at you.

WhiteSox5187
04-24-2010, 12:18 AM
I was just trying to lighten things up a bit. It was not meant to be a jab at you.

I know that, I just thought it was funny that I had these two posts where I actually did some degree of research in them and they get ignored but a quote I remembered from my freshman year philosophy class was managed to be picked up. :tongue:

WhiteSox5187
04-24-2010, 12:21 AM
I know that, I just thought it was funny that I had these two posts where I actually did some degree of research in them and they get ignored but a quote I remembered from my freshman year philosophy class was managed to be picked up. :tongue:

I also went back and checked, I was quoted like five different times. Oops! :redface:

dickallen15
04-24-2010, 12:27 AM
How many times does it have to be brought up that in this thread we're not talking about this year's 17 games worth of performance, but instead the past 400 games from 2006 to today? Have the pitching problems you reference above been recurring problems over a period of 4 years?

So if the Sox were currently hitting .280 as a team, this thread and the Walker rips would still be here. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

jabrch
04-24-2010, 12:27 AM
I guess we simply have differing viewpoints... I'm not a fan of failing repeatedly, then continuing on the same failing path because everything's just got to get better. (Nice subtle sarcastic jabs, by the way - I must think I have a crystal ball and I must think I'm so smart I know all the answers!)

Also, you continue to read this as if we're only talking about this season. Let everyone ride out the season for all I care, but if this offense performs below league average yet again, it will have been 4 out of the last 5 years. How many seasons does it have to go before we admit that something isn't working?

I wasn't saying you have all the answers - I just know that I don't.

The last 5 years - 05 - 09? We have a WS, 2 post season trips and a 90 win season that didn't make the playoffs. If we continue to do that, I'll be content. I don't see this as failing repeatedly. We aren't NY or Boston. But what AL team has been better than us between 05 and 09? Some have been in the same park - but better?

I know the past year or so has sucked...but I won't let that tarnish a pretty fun last 5 years for me.

mcfish
04-24-2010, 12:47 AM
I wasn't saying you have all the answers - I just know that I don't.

The last 5 years - 05 - 09? We have a WS, 2 post season trips and a 90 win season that didn't make the playoffs. If we continue to do that, I'll be content. I don't see this as failing repeatedly. We aren't NY or Boston. But what AL team has been better than us between 05 and 09? Some have been in the same park - but better?

I know the past year or so has sucked...but I won't let that tarnish a pretty fun last 5 years for me.
As my post said, after this season, if the offense finishes below average again, it will have been 4 of the last 5 years between 06 and 10. In that time span we will have had 1 post season trip on 88+ wins with a team that really wasn't good enough to win anything but the AL Central Division (the blackout game was a lot of fun, but when it was over did you think we actually had a shot to even win a pennant?) and a 90 win season that finished in 3rd place. Additionally, 2 seasons with 72 and 79 wins, plus whatever they do this year. If this year turns out to be mediocre, is that really good enough?

The World Series was AWESOME. But 2005 is getting to be a long time ago. The free pass to mediocrity has to end at some point.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2010, 12:50 AM
MC:

You certainly have some valid points, it all depends of what you consider "successful" I guess. Obviously you and Jab disagree on that.

And Jab, I wasn't saying Ranger believes ANY of those things, just that some fans think he should say anything he wants on the air, even if it is very criticle of the people signing his pay checks and could therefore get him fired and because he doesn't in their opinion he's a "company man." A guy in his position (and I've been there) has to be very careful about what he says and HOW he says it.

Lip

jabrch
04-24-2010, 12:55 AM
But 2005 is getting to be a long time ago.

Not really


The free pass to mediocrity has to end at some point.

No such "free pass" exists. I wasn't willing to jump the gun to make a move before 2005 either. And it isn't mediocrity.

99
90
72
89
79

That's actually pretty ****ing good. Is it perfect? Nope. I wish we won 99 games every year. But we won't do that. We aren't funded/built for it. We don't develop enough talent for it. But ****...give me those 5 every 5 years...I'll be a happy camper. It's not about a "free pass" based on 05. It's about not overreacting to a bad period that I feel is outweighed by good periods. I'm not convinced the next regime would be better than this one - and if I don't see a better next option, I don't want to quit on a pretty damn current organization - certainly not based on a ****tastic first few weeks and a bad second half last year.

jabrch
04-24-2010, 01:03 AM
MC:

You certainly have some valid points, it all depends of what you consider "successful" I guess. Obviously you and Jab disagree on that.

And Jab, I wasn't saying Ranger believes ANY of those things, just that some fans think he should say anything he wants on the air, even if it is very criticle of the people signing his pay checks and could therefore get him fired.

Lip


Agreed Lip...I think we'd hear him more critical if he believed it - but not to the point where he'd get himself fired. I don't believe he sugarcoats it just because - I believe he believes what he says.

I think mcfish and I both agree on what SUCCESS is. I think we disagree with what is failure. I think there is a thick line inbetween the two. I don't know what Mcfish thinks, but I know many out there who think either you succeed (win the WS - or at least get there or get close) or you fail... I think there is a lot of middle ground and a lot of mitigating circumstances that justify not firing everyone in a bad streak or two.

Frater Perdurabo
04-24-2010, 01:05 AM
In that time span we will have had 1 post season trip on 88+ wins with a team that really wasn't good enough to win anything but the AL Central Division (the blackout game was a lot of fun, but when it was over did you think we actually had a shot to even win a pennant?)...

If Contreras and Quentin hadn't gotten hurt, the 2008 Sox would have won the division outright, meaning Game 163 (and the makeup game with Detroit) are not necessary. Consequently, they would have been able to set their rotation to have lefties Buehrle and Danks each start two games in a hypothetical five-game series against the Rays. In that case, I think the Sox advance the ALCS, and have an even shot to go to the World Series.

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2010, 01:08 AM
If Contreras and Quentin hadn't gotten hurt, the 2008 Sox would have won the division outright, meaning Game 163 (and the makeup game with Detroit) are not necessary. Consequently, they would have been able to set their rotation to have lefties Buehrle and Danks each start two games in a hypothetical five-game series against the Rays. In that case, I think the Sox advance the ALCS, and have an even shot to go to the World Series.
:hawk

I luv it when you analyze.

mcfish
04-24-2010, 01:12 AM
Not really




No such "free pass" exists. I wasn't willing to jump the gun to make a move before 2005 either. And it isn't mediocrity.

99
90
72
89
79

That's actually pretty ****ing good. Is it perfect? Nope. I wish we won 99 games every year. But we won't do that. We aren't funded/built for it. We don't develop enough talent for it. But ****...give me those 5 every 5 years...I'll be a happy camper. It's not about a "free pass" based on 05. It's about not overreacting to a bad period that I feel is outweighed by good periods. I'm not convinced the next regime would be better than this one - and if I don't see a better next option, I don't want to quit on a pretty damn current organization - certainly not based on a ****tastic first few weeks and a bad second half last year.
Fair enough. We can agree that period is certainly better than the 88 years that preceded it.

The fundamental difference between our viewpoints is clear. I feel that the bad period is 4 years of essentially .500 ball since 2005; you see 1 BAD year and some rough patches outweighed by 2 good years and 1 GREAT year. I see a current regime that doesn't seem to be headed in the right direction and hope for a new one that could be; you see a current regime that has produced the ultimate, and been ok to good most of the rest of the time, and are concerned that a new regime might turn out to be worse.

WhiteSox5187
04-24-2010, 01:14 AM
If Contreras and Quentin hadn't gotten hurt, the 2008 Sox would have won the division outright, meaning Game 163 (and the makeup game with Detroit) are not necessary. Consequently, they would have been able to set their rotation to have lefties Buehrle and Danks each start two games in a hypothetical five-game series against the Rays. In that case, I think the Sox advance the ALCS, and have an even shot to go to the World Series.

Well, I think that that series with Tampa goes five games rather than four, but I'm still not sure that the Sox could beat Tampa. I'm not so sure they would have beaten Boston either unless they got real hot real quick. I do agree with you that if Quentin OR Contreras doesn't go down, there is no 163 and the Sox clinch up the division a bit earlier. But it's all moot anyways, what happened happened.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2010, 01:23 AM
Jab:

I'll weigh in with my opinion on this.

If the Sox were to go on and have their 3rd losing season in the last four years (which considering their start is certainly possible) and if attendance were to drop for the 4th straight season (which is almost a certainty if they are playing poorly for much of the season) than everyone needs to be held accountable and serious conversation have to be held by those who are running the show.

No one should be given much more leeway if these circumstances come to pass.

To me personally I'll be upset because Kenny's "plan" or "vision" which he laid out to the mainstream media numerous times on why he so desperately wanted to win the World Series (or as he put it, something substantial) wouldn't have come to pass and the Sox as a franchise would be back in the same outhouse that they were in the late 60's, most of the 70's, the late 80's, and the late 90's.

I think this franchise is better than that...not like the "major" / major market franchises because they don't have the resources or the personal desire to extend themselves to that point but they can certainly have a winning season, almost every year. (I know that's probably impossible today but my personal bottom line on how I judge if a season was "successful" is, 'did they win at least 82 games?' Anything over and above that is gravy to me...)

Lip

mcfish
04-24-2010, 01:24 AM
I think mcfish and I both agree on what SUCCESS is. I think we disagree with what is failure. I think there is a thick line inbetween the two. I don't know what Mcfish thinks, but I know many out there who think either you succeed (win the WS - or at least get there or get close) or you fail... I think there is a lot of middle ground and a lot of mitigating circumstances that justify not firing everyone in a bad streak or two.
I certainly do not fall into the WS or nothing camp. This is a pretty difficult question to clearly answer, honestly. My answer will probably contradict everything else I've said in this thread. I'm sure I fall somewhere in that middle ground. Division titles and playoff berths would be not failure. Failure is not positioning yourself to have a shot. I think one important thing, and the thing that I don't really see with the last four years of this group, is showing year over year improvement.

Ranger
04-24-2010, 01:27 AM
Oh boy. That's right, ignore some of the well-written posts filled with facts and then dismiss them with a ridiculously general statement. But, hey, you can walk in the clubhouse today, right?

What the F is that supposed to mean? Did you miss the point? I think you did, so I'll try again:

People criticize me for being a "company man" because I don't go on mouth-foamed tirades and because I don't call JR "cheap" and managment "incompetent". There's this opinion that I'm afraid to criticize. Well, apparently I'm not because I'm blaming the players for this mess and I often criticize them individually. Which is odd for someone "afraid to criticize" since I have to go into that lockeroom and face them (and often ask them to do interviews) after I've just said on the air that they aren't doing their jobs. Care to explain that, know-it-all?

No, I didn't ignore anything. And there was no post that presented any "facts" that disproved anything I've said.


This and that on Chris, a guy I consider a friend.

I think he's pretty sharp when it comes to baseball...he doesn't often fall into the trap like many others of saying something and not having something to back it up with. Some facts, some circumstancial evidence to support his position. I can respect that.

Can he be a tad abrasive at times? Sure...so can we all.

Regarding the opinion that he's a "company man" and won't criticize.

Gang like it or not, his objectivity, like so many of us in the business, IS COMPROMISED.

The Sox have a say if he's going to be working next week, the Sox have a say if he's going to get a paycheck in two weeks. The reality is that under those circumstances neither he nor any of you would be stupid enough to say something along the lines of, "Reinsdorf is a bottom line, cheap bastard of an owner..." or "Ozzie needs to shut up and just do his job..." or "Walker is a nice guy but is incompetent when it comes to his job..."

Nobody on these boards is stupid enough to do that yet some of you expect him to "go off" on the Sox. It doesn't work that way folks.

He has to tread lightly with what he says and how he says it.

Is that fair to him? Absolutely not, but that's reality today in the broadcasting business and it's not going to change.

I think some have to understand that reality when making comments about anybody employed by a college or pro team. The days when TV or radio stations hired and paid broadcasters and the teams they are covering had no say in the matter are long gone. The days when a TV station could tell a pro team to "kiss their ass" regarding something one of their broadcasters said disappeared decades ago.

Lip

Lip, thank you. I consider you the same.

Now, to your points: yes and no.

The team does have some say in whether I'm doing this job. Ultimately, it's up to the Score, though.

Now, I'll agree about the objectivity, but not necessarily for the reasons you submit. I'm not completely objective because I want the Sox to win. But, I think the impression you leave is that I'm not allowed to criticize at all which is completely untrue.

I actually have pretty free reign to criticize moves, decisions, etc. Nobody has ever told me not to. In fact, I've had KW tell me a couple of times that he felt like I "hammered" him during an interview. He wasn't angry, he just thought that I asked him tough questions. He understood that was my job, and we move on. No big deal.

The only thing I've chosen to do is be respectful in my criticisms. Anybody doing this job that has any sort of brain would do the exact same thing. I have decided to not act like a ranting idiot after every loss and tell everybody that this guy sucks or that guy sucks. That's just stupid, and usually it's not the truth anyway. There is no reason for me not to be respectful...these are baseball players, not Bernie Madoff.

I'm sorry if people don't prefer a level-headed, rational approach to this job. Go somewhere else if it bothers you. Go find a ranting lunatic that will change his opinions as the wind blows. I'm not that dude.

WhiteSox5187
04-24-2010, 01:33 AM
What the F is that supposed to mean? Did you miss the point? I think you did, so I'll try again:

People criticize me for being a "company man" because I don't go on mouth-foamed tirades and because I don't call JR "cheap" and managment "incompetent". There's this opinion that I'm afraid to criticize. Well, apparently I'm not because I'm blaming the players for this mess and I often criticize them individually. Which is odd for someone "afraid to criticize" since I have to go into that lockeroom and face them (and often ask them to do interviews) after I've just said on the air that they aren't doing their jobs. Care to explain that, know-it-all?

No, I didn't ignore anything. And there was no post that presented any "facts" that disproved anything I've said.




Lip, thank you. I consider you the same.

Now, to your points: yes and no.

The team does have some say in whether I'm doing this job. Ultimately, it's up to the Score, though.

Now, I'll agree about the objectivity, but not necessarily for the reasons you submit. I'm not completely objective because I want the Sox to win. But, I think the impression you leave is that I'm not allowed to criticize at all which is completely untrue.

I actually have pretty free reign to criticize moves, decisions, etc. Nobody has ever told me not to. In fact, I've had KW tell me a couple of times that he felt like I "hammered" him during an interview. He wasn't angry, he just thought that I asked him tough questions. He understood that was my job, and we move on. No big deal.

The only thing I've chosen to do is be respectful in my criticisms. Anybody doing this job that has any sort of brain would do the exact same thing. I have decided to not act like a ranting idiot after every loss and tell everybody that this guy sucks or that guy sucks. That's just stupid, and usually it's not the truth anyway. There is no reason for me not to be respectful...these are baseball players, not Bernie Madoff.

I'm sorry if people don't prefer a level-headed, rational approach to this job. Go somewhere else if it bothers you. Go find a ranting lunatic that will change his opinions as the wind blows. I'm not that dude.

Do you know if a radio station is looking to hire said lunatic? If so...I am their man!

pudge
04-24-2010, 01:39 AM
I'm sorry if people don't prefer a level-headed, rational approach to this job. Go somewhere else if it bothers you. Go find a ranting lunatic that will change his opinions as the wind blows. I'm not that dude.

Here's my problem, having spent a LOT of time around people in the media - they tend to think the mass public is a bunch of ranting morons and they are the rational, reasonable ones sitting on their bully pulpit. Now, sure there are a lot of ranting morons out there, but I can (again) say from experience the media is filled with an awful lot of morons - and they're the worst kind because they think they're smarter than everyone else. Not saying Ranger is one of those, I'm just saying... it sounds a lot like just because this "fire Walker" opinion is not his, he claims it as the opinion of a ranting, lunatic, irrational fan base. And I find that attitude truly offensive.

Having said that, I've never really understood hitting/pitching coaches so I have rarely had an opinion on whether they should be fired. What I do feel strongly is that this is damn near a make-or-break year for Kenny Williams in my mind. He won a title, but has also missed wildly throughout his career. He'll make a brilliant move and then shoot himself in the foot with another in the same season. I won't list all the obvious examples. His legacy is on the backs of Peavy, Rios, Teahen and 2010. And it hasn't started pretty. If this season is a flop, I think this entire organization is a mess and a failure. I don't know what needs to be done about it, but that's how I feel.

Ranger
04-24-2010, 01:48 AM
Here's my problem, having spent a LOT of time around people in the media - they tend to think the mass public is a bunch of ranting morons and they are the rational, reasonable ones sitting on their bully pulpit. Now, sure there are a lot of ranting morons out there, but I can (again) say from experience the media is filled with an awful lot of morons - and they're the worst kind because they think they're smarter than everyone else. Not saying Ranger is one of those, I'm just saying... it sounds a lot like just because this "fire Walker" opinion is not his, he claims it as the opinion of a ranting, lunatic, irrational fan base. And I find that attitude truly offensive.

Having said that, I've never really understood hitting/pitching coaches so I have rarely had an opinion on whether they should be fired. What I do feel strongly is that this is damn near a make-or-break year for Kenny Williams in my mind. He won a title, but has also missed wildly throughout his career. He'll make a brilliant move and then shoot himself in the foot with another in the same season. I won't list all the obvious examples. His legacy is on the backs of Peavy, Rios, Teahen and 2010. And it hasn't started pretty. If this season is a flop, I think this entire organization is a mess and a failure. I don't know what needs to be done about it, but that's how I feel.

Well, that's my problem with the whole thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you being infuriated with the way they are playing. I am too. But I have an issue with people being so absolutely certain that the answer is to fire this coach or that coach, when they readily admit they don't even know exactly how much of an impact said coach has on the outcome.

I strongly dislike "well, the status quo isn't working now, so they have to do SOMETHING." I dislike it when it means removing someone from their job.

I'm for actions that will bring about improvements. I am not for firing coaches and HOPING something changes.

jabrch
04-24-2010, 02:19 AM
I certainly do not fall into the WS or nothing camp. This is a pretty difficult question to clearly answer, honestly. My answer will probably contradict everything else I've said in this thread. I'm sure I fall somewhere in that middle ground. Division titles and playoff berths would be not failure. Failure is not positioning yourself to have a shot. I think one important thing, and the thing that I don't really see with the last four years of this group, is showing year over year improvement.

I don't have that expectation. Some years you will do better - others worse. I think that's the natural ebb and flow. Sometimes, despite best intentions, a team just won't have it.

Net/net...I'll take 2005 - 2010 if I can have it from 2010 - 2015...

jabrch
04-24-2010, 02:21 AM
Well, that's my problem with the whole thing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you being infuriated with the way they are playing. I am too. But I have an issue with people being so absolutely certain that the answer is to fire this coach or that coach, when they readily admit they don't even know exactly how much of an impact said coach has on the outcome.

I strongly dislike "well, the status quo isn't working now, so they have to do SOMETHING." I dislike it when it means removing someone from their job.

I'm for actions that will bring about improvements. I am not for firing coaches and HOPING something changes.

I agree 100%. I also understand why some people have a different opinion - I just don't agree with it - and I am glad KW/JR/OG appear to not agree either.

kufram
04-24-2010, 02:40 AM
I'd like to commend Greg Walker on the excellent hitting coach job he did tonight. He must have spent an extraordinary ammount of time with A. Jones because it was his birthday!

Greg was obviously the difference in the game!

p.s. I don't know exactly which colour is teal... hope I'm right!

MisterB
04-24-2010, 03:52 AM
I'd like to commend Greg Walker on the excellent hitting coach job he did tonight. He must have spent an extraordinary ammount of time with A. Jones because it was his birthday!

Greg was obviously the difference in the game!

p.s. I don't know exactly which colour is teal... hope I'm right!


Four over and one down...
:tealtutor:

kufram
04-24-2010, 04:50 AM
Four over and one down...
:tealtutor:

Thank you for not ripping me! I was close.

Konerko05
04-24-2010, 05:03 AM
I guarantee this thread is fifteen pages of people repeating the same thing over and over again on both sides.

I'm not trying to insult, how could I? I was a somewhat active in most of the Brian Anderson debates. Was also a minor factor in the Clayton/Valentin ones. And just so everyone's clear, I all for Anderson and Valentin all the way.

doublem23
04-24-2010, 06:41 AM
Sure, many of us were upset that he got that extension last year (myself included) but maybe we could pull for our coaches and players to do well instead of tearing them down and over-analyzing everything...


I would rather just ****in fire him.

dickallen15
04-24-2010, 08:04 AM
Greg Walker took over midway through the 2003 season. Konerko was DOA, he revived him. I didn't see any other good hitters fall apart. All expectations with Quentin are because of his 2008 performance. Who was his hitting coach then? Pods was horrid his final year in Milwaukee and made a decent comeback the next year. He was relegated to the bench in Colorado and came back with a good offensive year last year. Who was the hitting coach? I'm still trying to get people to name the players that took off offensively once they got out of the prison that apparently Greg Walker's coaching is. There is really no one who has had success afterward that didn't have the same success here except for maybe Swisher. Ironically, one reason the Sox dumped Swisher was his refusal to work with Walker. If all these guys are .300 hitters that just need a new hitting coach, how come when they go to other teams with different hitting coaches the results aren't better?

All those who think someone should be fired just to do something should really beware of karma.

guillen4life13
04-24-2010, 08:39 AM
Greg Walker took over midway through the 2003 season. Konerko was DOA, he revived him. I didn't see any other good hitters fall apart. All expectations with Quentin are because of his 2008 performance. Who was his hitting coach then? Pods was horrid his final year in Milwaukee and made a decent comeback the next year. He was relegated to the bench in Colorado and came back with a good offensive year last year. Who was the hitting coach? I'm still trying to get people to name the players that took off offensively once they got out of the prison that apparently Greg Walker's coaching is. There is really no one who has had success afterward that didn't have the same success here except for maybe Swisher. Ironically, one reason the Sox dumped Swisher was his refusal to work with Walker. If all these guys are .300 hitters that just need a new hitting coach, how come when they go to other teams with different hitting coaches the results aren't better?

All those who think someone should be fired just to do something should really beware of karma.

I have two issues with what you're saying. One of them I addressed earlier, but I'll say it again.

1. I do not claim that the problems are Walker's fault. However, based on past evidence, the last two times the Sox fired their hitting coach during the season, the offense turned around. It happened in 2001 and 2003. I don't know why it happened specifically, but I venture to guess that it lit a fire under the players' asses. It doesn't even mean that any of the hitting coaches were necessarily better or worse than one another (since 2000, the Sox have had Von Joshua, Gary Ward, and Greg Walker).

2. Coaches at this level are hired to be fired. Walker has made millions out of this game, and most likely he would be reassigned elsewhere in the organization. It's not like he would be struggling to put food on the table and pay his rent/mortgage. Based on his earnings, the man and his family should be set for life. If he isn't, that would speak more to irresponsibility on his part. So get out of here with that holier than thou karma crap. Walker knew what he was getting into when he took the job.

doublem23
04-24-2010, 08:40 AM
Greg Walker took over midway through the 2003 season. Konerko was DOA, he revived him. I didn't see any other good hitters fall apart. All expectations with Quentin are because of his 2008 performance. Who was his hitting coach then? Pods was horrid his final year in Milwaukee and made a decent comeback the next year. He was relegated to the bench in Colorado and came back with a good offensive year last year. Who was the hitting coach? I'm still trying to get people to name the players that took off offensively once they got out of the prison that apparently Greg Walker's coaching is. There is really no one who has had success afterward that didn't have the same success here except for maybe Swisher. Ironically, one reason the Sox dumped Swisher was his refusal to work with Walker. If all these guys are .300 hitters that just need a new hitting coach, how come when they go to other teams with different hitting coaches the results aren't better?

All those who think someone should be fired just to do something should really beware of karma.

Swisher, Nick
Uribe, Juan

I don't understand the irony with Swisher, if anything he's exactly the player you're looking at, hit well in Oakland before he came to the Sox, had a monster year for the Yankees in 2009 after he left. The only time he hasn't hit was his one season here. Now, I don't blame all his struggles on Walker, a lot had to do with his relationship with Ozzie, too.

Regardless, an offense is not just a sum of its parts, there's also a balance and chemistry that has to occur, too. Pods had a great year last year, but our offense on a whole was still miserable. Pointing out 1-2 successes and completely ignoring 6-7 failures is basically being as manipulative with your statistics as you can get. Though, if you get to do it, I get to, as well. Jim Thome is off to a tremendous start in Minnesota, arguably more productive than any time since he left Cleveland.

thedudeabides
04-24-2010, 09:14 AM
Swisher, Nick
Uribe, Juan

I don't understand the irony with Swisher, if anything he's exactly the player you're looking at, hit well in Oakland before he came to the Sox, had a monster year for the Yankees in 2009 after he left. The only time he hasn't hit was his one season here. Now, I don't blame all his struggles on Walker, a lot had to do with his relationship with Ozzie, too.

Regardless, an offense is not just a sum of its parts, there's also a balance and chemistry that has to occur, too. Pods had a great year last year, but our offense on a whole was still miserable. Pointing out 1-2 successes and completely ignoring 6-7 failures is basically being as manipulative with your statistics as you can get. Though, if you get to do it, I get to, as well. Jim Thome is off to a tremendous start in Minnesota, arguably more productive than any time since he left Cleveland.

Says the guy using 29 at bats to crown Thome's 'temendous' start. 2006 and 2007 Jim Thome would like to have a word with you. If he puts up better numbers than those years, I'll bow to your every post from here on out. And Juan Uribe's 2004 under Walker was better than any season he has had as a hitter before or after him being in the weaker league.

If you want to use Swisher as an example that is one. Even though Nick has said himself that Steve Swisher is his only hitting coach he'll listen to, and he refused to listen to the coaches while he was here. I'll wait for the other 5-6 failures you are alluding to.

SI1020
04-24-2010, 09:18 AM
All those who think someone should be fired just to do something should really beware of karma. A very misunderstood word that has been reduced to a cliche.

dickallen15
04-24-2010, 09:19 AM
Swisher, Nick
Uribe, Juan

I don't understand the irony with Swisher, if anything he's exactly the player you're looking at, hit well in Oakland before he came to the Sox, had a monster year for the Yankees in 2009 after he left. The only time he hasn't hit was his one season here. Now, I don't blame all his struggles on Walker, a lot had to do with his relationship with Ozzie, too.

Regardless, an offense is not just a sum of its parts, there's also a balance and chemistry that has to occur, too. Pods had a great year last year, but our offense on a whole was still miserable. Pointing out 1-2 successes and completely ignoring 6-7 failures is basically being as manipulative with your statistics as you can get. Though, if you get to do it, I get to, as well. Jim Thome is off to a tremendous start in Minnesota, arguably more productive than any time since he left Cleveland.

The irony with Swisher is one reason Swisher was dumped was he didn't work with Walker. Nick Swisher's hitting coach is Steve Swisher. Uribe hit just as well under Walker in 2004 as he has done in SF. Thome, 29 AB and a .974 OPS? What was his OPS with the White Sox and Walker as the hitting coach in 2006? Oh yeah 1.016. And as long as you mention Thome, couldn't you say the same about Andruw Jones?

Who are the 6-7 failures? I think you have your numbers backwards. If you go by the premise that the only difference between guys like Albert Pujols and Brent Lillibridge is a solid hitting coach, I'd say, you're right, a change must be made, but that's not the case. Walker can only work with what he has. It is funny about Uribe. Everyone wanted him gone, now that he is, Greg Walker was the reason Uribe didn't live up to his talent level. Be careful what you wish for. I think many around here would have been doing cartwheels had the Sox replaced Walker with Jaramillo this past offseason. Aren't the Cubs near the bottom of the NL in runs? I'm sure you'll have 1000 excuses for him, but his legit excuse is personnel. Just like Walker.

mcfish
04-24-2010, 09:25 AM
I strongly dislike "well, the status quo isn't working now, so they have to do SOMETHING." I dislike it when it means removing someone from their job.

I'm for actions that will bring about improvements. I am not for firing coaches and HOPING something changes.

Obviously you are fine with the how the team is being run by KW, OG, & GW and the direction they seem to be taking it. That's fine, and I mean that with no teal. Can you at least accept that some people do not feel that the direction things are headed is going to lead to better results based on actual trends over the last four years? That some believe that the problems we have now surfaced years ago and the people in charge have had plenty of time to correct them, and haven't, so why should we think they will in their next opportunity? That's it's not simply hoping something changes for the better, but fearing that if nothing changes, we're destined for more of the same?

That being said, I'm starting to be willing to accept your premise that Walker is doing a good job and he should not be held directly accountable for the actual production of the offense. But it can't be the players either. Someone is in charge and accountable for the results of the players. At my job, and I think this is pretty normal, if I screw up at work, my manager takes flak first, not me. He is accountable for the production of his team. It's understood that he will relay the message to his people. Who is that person in the White Sox organization? Obviously it's some combination of Ozzie and Kenny. If this season, when complete, proves to have a poor offense, again, one or both of them needs to be held accountable for it and show willingness to change their approach or be replaced with someone who will.

jabrch
04-24-2010, 09:55 AM
Fair enough. We can agree that period is certainly better than the 88 years that preceded it.

I'd say it was more successful than nearly every other franchise in baseball with a payroll under 125mm depending on how you measure it.

I see a current regime that doesn't seem to be headed in the right direction

Even with all the improvements in the farm? I think direction is better than ever - it just takes some time for those things to settle.

And I agree on the differences in how we see it. I also will always be optimistic until there is no viable reason to be. I'm not sure where you turn from optimistic to pessimistic....as we said - to each their own...

DirtySox
04-24-2010, 10:09 AM
Even with all the improvements in the farm? I think direction is better than ever - it just takes some time for those things to settle.

And I agree on the differences in how we see it. I also will always be optimistic until there is no viable reason to be. I'm not sure where you turn from optimistic to pessimistic....as we said - to each their own...

There hasn't been tons of improvement on the farm. The draft philosophy has shifted to taking some higher ceiling, higher risk players, but that is about it. There is still no depth to speak of and the talent level is quite inadequate. After Hudson and Flowers, there is little to get excited about. It will likely remain that way until the organization decides to up it's draft spending to a reasonable amount. They are routinely in the bottom 5 of all teams in draft spending which is unacceptable when you are committing 100 million+ to the major league roster. It really boggles the mind that a team who quite often misses out on significant free agents and frequently utilizes prospects as trade bait, spends so little on the possibility of cheap young talent either to plug into the major league team or to amass more desirable bullets.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2010, 10:47 AM
Chris:

Just wanted to clear, I'm not saying you are afraid or reluctant to criticize. I'm just saying that you like all other broadcasters (including myself) who are put in a conflict of interest situation because of the nature of the business itself today, has to be careful with what they say and how they say it.

It can be a challenge as we both know.

There are some broadcasters today, very few, but some, who because of their reputation and what they have accomplished can 'get away' for want of a better word with saying whatever they will, but the days of Harry Caray and Jimmy Piersall are long gone. (Which frankly is to bad in my opinion - broadcasters shouldn't be caught in the middle)

Lip

Tragg
04-24-2010, 10:53 AM
It really boggles the mind that a team who quite often misses out on significant free agents and frequently utilizes prospects as trade bait, spends so little on the possibility of cheap young talent either to plug into the major league team or to amass more desirable bullets.One reason that they have no money for significant free agents is that they waste money on insignifcant free agents and veterans, when they could get the same, if not more, production for the league minimum.
Of course that would entail taking the risk that a few immature kids enter Ozzie's clubhouse.

russ99
04-24-2010, 11:00 AM
I guess we simply have differing viewpoints... I'm not a fan of failing repeatedly, then continuing on the same failing path because everything's just got to get better. (Nice subtle sarcastic jabs, by the way - I must think I have a crystal ball and I must think I'm so smart I know all the answers!)

Also, you continue to read this as if we're only talking about this season. Let everyone ride out the season for all I care, but if this offense performs below league average yet again, it will have been 4 out of the last 5 years. How many seasons does it have to go before we admit that something isn't working?

You know what, if you are under the impression that there's any team in the entire league that has everyone playing up to their maximum capabilities all the time, you're in complete denial.

And if you think the Sox can field some team of all-stars. maybe you should be putting up the $250M in cash each year to spend like the Yankees.

Everyone has guys who aren't playing well at any given time. Can you even think of a Sox team that has? Even in 2005 we had July and August...

russ99
04-24-2010, 11:04 AM
There hasn't been tons of improvement on the farm. The draft philosophy has shifted to taking some higher ceiling, higher risk players, but that is about it. There is still no depth to speak of and the talent level is quite inadequate. After Hudson and Flowers, there is little to get excited about. It will likely remain that way until the organization decides to up it's draft spending to a reasonable amount. They are routinely in the bottom 5 of all teams in draft spending which is unacceptable when you are committing 100 million+ to the major league roster. It really boggles the mind that a team who quite often misses out on significant free agents and frequently utilizes prospects as trade bait, spends so little on the possibility of cheap young talent either to plug into the major league team or to amass more desirable bullets.

Do you want to spend on the draft or spend on the players on the big league team. It comes down to that. There's limited resources at work here.

Look at the Twins, they spend on the draft and in player development and lose their players every year. Mauer being the lone exception since they feel they can overextend themselves based on the new ballpark.

Besides, I have little faith that the Sox as an organization can produce players like the Twins do. If you want to spend $80M on the big league team we can go well over slot on draftees and spend to gut the scouting and development staff and bring in new people. I for one don't want that.

russ99
04-24-2010, 11:20 AM
Here we go again with this nonesense.

They told me you were being sarcastic about your post the other day about the reason the White Sox struggling is because fans are too negative, but I guess you were not being sarcastic.


Pulling for players/coaches, being positive, praying to the Gods does not affect the game one bit.

Please stop with this.

Of course it doesn't. I totally realize this.

But I'm really tired of people ranting and raving every time something doesn't work out with this team, that this and that player "sucks", "is bad at baseball" and that Ozzie and Walker and KW should be fired after every game for the most miniscule of supposed "offenses" like leaving in Floyd one batter too long.

Frankly, I'm glad none of you guys are running the team...

It's not like Teahen, Quentin, Ozzie and Walk came over to your house and kicked your dog. It's just a stupid game.

I'm as disappointed in this team as the rest of you, but I'm not going to go into a rage all the time or let it affect my life. I'm going to try and support the team and enjoy some baseball, win or lose knowing they gave their best effort.

Which is what Sox fans always were about from the time I went to my first games in the 70s until 2006 when all these hangers-on jumped aboard the bandwagon and seem to always "expect" things - like fans of certain other teams that we used to dislike for that exact reason...

DirtySox
04-24-2010, 11:21 AM
Do you want to spend on the draft or spend on the players on the big league team. It comes down to that. There's limited resources at work here.

It does come down to that, but not to the degree you are making it out to be. It is not nearly that cut and dry.

Allocating a mere 1 million more to the draft would bump the White Sox from the bottom 5 to the middle of the pack. 2.5 million more would bump them up to the top 5. I don't think its unfeasible to potentially spend 1 to 2 million less on the major league roster when one considers the potential future implications. Churning out complimentary young talent at considerable cost savings to augment the major league roster is the ideal model. The interjection of only a few top prospects onto the big league team allows significant money to be allocated towards other free agent needs.

SI1020
04-24-2010, 11:26 AM
Do you want to spend on the draft or spend on the players on the big league team. It comes down to that. There's limited resources at work here.

Look at the Twins, they spend on the draft and in player development and lose their players every year. Mauer being the lone exception since they feel they can overextend themselves based on the new ballpark.

Besides, I have little faith that the Sox as an organization can produce players like the Twins do. If you want to spend $80M on the big league team we can go well over slot on draftees and spend to gut the scouting and development staff and bring in new people. I for one don't want that. I have to believe that the Sox not only can, but absolutely have to do a better job of drafting, signing and developing young talent.

mcfish
04-24-2010, 12:07 PM
You know what, if you are under the impression that there's any team in the entire league that has everyone playing up to their maximum capabilities all the time, you're in complete denial.

And if you think the Sox can field some team of all-stars. maybe you should be putting up the $250M in cash each year to spend like the Yankees.

Everyone has guys who aren't playing well at any given time. Can you even think of a Sox team that has? Even in 2005 we had July and August...
4 years of .500 baseball with a generally below average offense, with a fifth in progress. This is not about just 17 games, but those 17 games do seem to be continuing a longstanding trend. Some don't think the current regime can reverse it, as they've had time to try already and have not been able to; others disagree.

I don't know where I said everyone needs to play to their maximum capabilities all the time. I don't know how to respond to your specific points, because I don't feel like I've said anything you've implied I did, and of course none of your statements are incorrect.

mcfish
04-24-2010, 12:07 PM
I have to believe that the Sox not only can, but absolutely have to do a better job of drafting, signing and developing young talent.
:gulp:

JB98
04-24-2010, 12:18 PM
Of course it doesn't. I totally realize this.

But I'm really tired of people ranting and raving every time something doesn't work out with this team, that this and that player "sucks", "is bad at baseball" and that Ozzie and Walker and KW should be fired after every game for the most miniscule of supposed "offenses" like leaving in Floyd one batter too long.

Frankly, I'm glad none of you guys are running the team...

It's not like Teahen, Quentin, Ozzie and Walk came over to your house and kicked your dog. It's just a stupid game.

I'm as disappointed in this team as the rest of you, but I'm not going to go into a rage all the time or let it affect my life. I'm going to try and support the team and enjoy some baseball, win or lose knowing they gave their best effort.

Which is what Sox fans always were about from the time I went to my first games in the 70s until 2006 when all these hangers-on jumped aboard the bandwagon and seem to always "expect" things - like fans of certain other teams that we used to dislike for that exact reason...

Who says that I'm in a rage? Who says that I'm letting the losing affect my life?

Just because I don't believe in the current Sox regime and state that frequently and bluntly on a message board does not mean that I am a living a life of misery.

Are you trying to suggest that people here at WSI are bandwagon fans? :whatever:

Ranger
04-24-2010, 12:30 PM
Swisher, Nick
Uribe, Juan

I don't understand the irony with Swisher, if anything he's exactly the player you're looking at, hit well in Oakland before he came to the Sox, had a monster year for the Yankees in 2009 after he left. The only time he hasn't hit was his one season here. Now, I don't blame all his struggles on Walker, a lot had to do with his relationship with Ozzie, too.

Regardless, an offense is not just a sum of its parts, there's also a balance and chemistry that has to occur, too. Pods had a great year last year, but our offense on a whole was still miserable. Pointing out 1-2 successes and completely ignoring 6-7 failures is basically being as manipulative with your statistics as you can get. Though, if you get to do it, I get to, as well. Jim Thome is off to a tremendous start in Minnesota, arguably more productive than any time since he left Cleveland.

That kind of stuff happens, and for as many of your examples you site, there are a few examples of guys that had their best seasons here: Rowand and Dye. Thome had one of his best seasons ever here.

Obviously you are fine with the how the team is being run by KW, OG, & GW and the direction they seem to be taking it. That's fine, and I mean that with no teal. Can you at least accept that some people do not feel that the direction things are headed is going to lead to better results based on actual trends over the last four years? That some believe that the problems we have now surfaced years ago and the people in charge have had plenty of time to correct them, and haven't, so why should we think they will in their next opportunity? That's it's not simply hoping something changes for the better, but fearing that if nothing changes, we're destined for more of the same?

That being said, I'm starting to be willing to accept your premise that Walker is doing a good job and he should not be held directly accountable for the actual production of the offense. But it can't be the players either. Someone is in charge and accountable for the results of the players. At my job, and I think this is pretty normal, if I screw up at work, my manager takes flak first, not me. He is accountable for the production of his team. It's understood that he will relay the message to his people. Who is that person in the White Sox organization? Obviously it's some combination of Ozzie and Kenny. If this season, when complete, proves to have a poor offense, again, one or both of them needs to be held accountable for it and show willingness to change their approach or be replaced with someone who will.

Certainly, I'm not happy with everything that's happened, but the question is: does this mean changes should be made in the front office? I really don't think so. There's a cost-benefit to consider. Would it really get better with different management, or would firing people just satisfy angry fans who have the desire for heads to roll?

Chris:

Just wanted to clear, I'm not saying you are afraid or reluctant to criticize. I'm just saying that you like all other broadcasters (including myself) who are put in a conflict of interest situation because of the nature of the business itself today, has to be careful with what they say and how they say it.

It can be a challenge as we both know.

There are some broadcasters today, very few, but some, who because of their reputation and what they have accomplished can 'get away' for want of a better word with saying whatever they will, but the days of Harry Caray and Jimmy Piersall are long gone. (Which frankly is to bad in my opinion - broadcasters shouldn't be caught in the middle)

Lip

Fair enough, Lip.

CLR01
04-24-2010, 12:34 PM
Which is what Sox fans always were about from the time I went to my first games in the 70s until 2006 when all these hangers-on jumped aboard the bandwagon and seem to always "expect" things - like fans of certain other teams that we used to dislike for that exact reason...


Yeah how dare anyone have any expectations. We should all be happy just being able to overpay to go to the game/park/eat/watch on TV. :rolling:


:rolleyes:

TomBradley72
04-24-2010, 12:36 PM
That kind of stuff happens, and for as many of your examples you site, there are a few examples of guys that had their best seasons here: Rowand and Dye. Thome had one of his best seasons ever here.



Certainly, I'm not happy with everything that's happened, but the question is: does this mean changes should be made in the front office? I really don't think so. There's a cost-benefit to consider. Would it really get better with different management, or would firing people just satisfy angry fans who have the desire for heads to roll?



Fair enough, Lip.

+1. Very well said.

Lip Man 1
04-24-2010, 12:41 PM
Russ:

The Twins do a much better job of keeping the players they want then you give them credit for. Mauer, Morneau, Cuddeyer, Kubel for example aren't going anywhere and they locked up Nathan a few times.

They keep their core players and let go the ones they feel they can replace.

Lip

doublem23
04-24-2010, 12:56 PM
Says the guy using 29 at bats to crown Thome's 'temendous' start. 2006 and 2007 Jim Thome would like to have a word with you. If he puts up better numbers than those years, I'll bow to your every post from here on out. And Juan Uribe's 2004 under Walker was better than any season he has had as a hitter before or after him being in the weaker league.

Yes, IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY BOTHER TO READ MY POST, you might have stumbled on the sentence were I noted I only cited Thome's 29 AB because I feel its only fair that I get to cherry pick stats that support my argument if dickallen15 is allowed to cherry pick stats to defend his.

doublem23
04-24-2010, 01:01 PM
Who are the 6-7 failures? I think you have your numbers backwards. If you go by the premise that the only difference between guys like Albert Pujols and Brent Lillibridge is a solid hitting coach, I'd say, you're right, a change must be made, but that's not the case. Walker can only work with what he has. It is funny about Uribe. Everyone wanted him gone, now that he is, Greg Walker was the reason Uribe didn't live up to his talent level. Be careful what you wish for. I think many around here would have been doing cartwheels had the Sox replaced Walker with Jaramillo this past offseason. Aren't the Cubs near the bottom of the NL in runs? I'm sure you'll have 1000 excuses for him, but his legit excuse is personnel. Just like Walker.

Again, how utterly manipulative with statistics are you? Jaramillo has been in charge of the Cubs for less than TWENTY games. The Walker-coached White Sox offense has been one of the worst in the American League for since the All-Star Break in 2006.

P.S., as for Swisher, who I admitted probably wasn't exclusively a Walker issue, I am 100% POSITIVE that if there had been a guy who, over his 7-year MLB career had never hit well, except for 1 season in Chicago, you'd be throwing that in everyone's face as to how great a hitting coach Greg Walker is.

The bottom line, that you still cannot refute, is that the White Sox offense for the last couple of years, has been downright terrible. One of the worst in the league. The failure is likely shared by Williams and Ozzie, too, but I doubt either of them are going anywhere. So let's just fire someone.

TomBradley72
04-24-2010, 01:18 PM
Again, how utterly manipulative with statistics are you? Jaramillo has been in charge of the Cubs for less than TWENTY games. The Walker-coached White Sox offense has been one of the worst in the American League for since the All-Star Break in 2006.

P.S., as for Swisher, who I admitted probably wasn't exclusively a Walker issue, I am 100% POSITIVE that if there had been a guy who, over his 7-year MLB career had never hit well, except for 1 season in Chicago, you'd be throwing that in everyone's face as to how great a hitting coach Greg Walker is.

The bottom line, that you still cannot refute, is that the White Sox offense for the last couple of years, has been downright terrible. One of the worst in the league. The failure is likely shared by Williams and Ozzie, too, but I doubt either of them are going anywhere. So let's just fire someone.

White Sox are 7th in runs scored in the AL from 2006-2009...how is that "one of the worst"? Admittedly not great, where they really ARE the worst is OBP...I attrbiute that more to roster make up vs. Walker's ability.

doublem23
04-24-2010, 01:35 PM
White Sox are 7th in runs scored in the AL from 2006-2009...how is that "one of the worst"? Admittedly not great, where they really ARE the worst is OBP...I attrbiute that more to roster make up vs. Walker's ability.

Post All-Star Break 2006 (when the wheels started falling off) - April 24, 2010 (that's 578 games), the Sox are 11th in the league in RS, ahead of only Oakland, Kansas City, and Seattle.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

canOcorn
04-24-2010, 01:57 PM
Admittedly not great, where they really ARE the worst is OBP...I attrbiute that more to roster make up vs. Walker's ability.

There's blame to go around, including, Kenny acquiescing to Ozzie's wishes for this **** roster.

thedudeabides
04-24-2010, 02:04 PM
Yes, IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY BOTHER TO READ MY POST, you might have stumbled on the sentence were I noted I only cited Thome's 29 AB because I feel its only fair that I get to cherry pick stats that support my argument if dickallen15 is allowed to cherry pick stats to defend his.

Fine, but where are the 6-7 failures you were talking about. I'll even give you Swisher, give me 5-6 more.

I can give you plenty of successes.