PDA

View Full Version : Should Ozzie be fired tonight?


A. Cavatica
04-22-2010, 10:43 PM
Should this have been the last straw?

Yes or no, no further explanation required.

DSpivack
04-22-2010, 10:44 PM
No. It's Ozzie's fault Peavy sucked again?

tm1119
04-22-2010, 10:47 PM
Tonight? Ehh doubt it. Give him another month or so.

I really dont think it matters though, there is simply not enough talent on the roster for this to be a winning team. I think about 90% of us here were clamoring for more offense. Although I didnt think we would be quite this bad. Ozzie is the 1 that called for this type of team though so he needs to go down with the ship if you will when they lose. Give him another month or so to see if he can work it out. If not hes gone and start to blow the team up in anyway we can.

october23sp
04-22-2010, 10:47 PM
Not just because of tonight, but yeah he should.

doublem23
04-22-2010, 10:50 PM
Meh, I'll give him this season. This is his team, I don't think anyone deserves to have to be dumped into this mess.

Tragg
04-22-2010, 10:53 PM
this is the team he wanted: veterans, low-obp ballplayers with good attitudes. He thinks this is a winning combination. And, sadly, Williams listened to him.
He leaves pitchers in until they pitch the game away...then he takes them out.
Meanwhile Madden and the Rays literally walk all over the Sox, while Guillen and Walker have their players hacking at everything, just like they did as hitters.
Williams is just as much to blame...put this collection of sad sacks together.

Viva Medias B's
04-22-2010, 11:00 PM
No. And 12 out of 23 WSIers have voted in the affirmative so far. A little rash, boys and girls among the dozen?

JB98
04-22-2010, 11:08 PM
No, but Walker should have been gone three years ago.

doublem23
04-22-2010, 11:09 PM
No, but Walker should have been gone three years ago.

Yeah, this is Ozzie's master plan, there is no more fitting punishment than making him watch it blow up in his face and give his ego a nice reality check.

Why Greg Walker still has a job absolutely astounds me.

sox1970
04-22-2010, 11:10 PM
Yeah, this is Ozzie's master plan, there is no more fitting punishment than making him watch it blow up in his face and give his ego a nice reality check.

Why Greg Walker still has a job absolutely astounds me.

Reinsdorf loyalty is killing this organization.

VMSNS
04-22-2010, 11:13 PM
Yeah, this is Ozzie's master plan, there is no more fitting punishment than making him watch it blow up in his face and give his ego a nice reality check.

Why Greg Walker still has a job absolutely astounds me.

I was literally speechless last season when I found out that the Sox extended Walker's contract.

Tragg
04-22-2010, 11:13 PM
Yeah, this is Ozzie's master plan, there is no more fitting punishment than making him watch it blow up in his face and give his ego a nice reality check..
There is no reality check for his ego.
30 more Rays can score via walk and Ozzie will remain obstinant that you score runs via bunts and grounders to the right side.

TDog
04-22-2010, 11:26 PM
The problem is not the managing. The problem is not the coaching.

sox1970
04-22-2010, 11:27 PM
The problem is not the managing. The problem is not the coaching.

It's everything. From Reinsdorf down to Donny Lucy.

kevingrt
04-22-2010, 11:31 PM
Tonight, no.

Will firing Ozzie during the season accomplish anything? I say no. If someone thinks it will accomplish something please enlighten me.

russ99
04-22-2010, 11:35 PM
Again, he's giving Peavy a chance to work through his issues. What's the big deal here...

And we had plenty of chances to score runs yet again...

How can this be on Ozzie?!??

Noneck
04-22-2010, 11:36 PM
It's everything. From Reinsdorf down to Donny Lucy.

Lucy? He is a major bright spot. You realize he has 1 more HR and the same amount of RBI's (1) as AJ?

Lucy has 7AB's, AJ has 46 AB's.

And Lucy is hitting .429.

tick53
04-22-2010, 11:37 PM
No. It's Ozzie's fault Peavy sucked again?


Exactly. It's wasn't Ozzie on the bump tonight. We're all mad about these losses and I've been more pissed at Ozzie than anything this year but this was total Peavy.

russ99
04-22-2010, 11:38 PM
I still maintain that they need to bump Walker upstairs and bring in Thomas as hitting coach. He learned from one of the best, hit for power and contact to all fields, is a sure-fire hall of famer, the players will listen to him - they're obviously tuning Walker out.

Heck, The Big Hurt just went into the clubhouse the other day and the guys did better.

And best of all, he'll keep Ozzie on his toes, something Ozzie probably needs at this point.

sox1970
04-22-2010, 11:40 PM
Lucy? He is a major bright spot. You realize he has 1 more HR and the same amount of RBI's (1) as AJ?

Lucy has 7AB's, AJ has 46 AB's.

And Lucy is hitting .429.

I wasn't making a crack at Donny Lucy. I was saying the organization is bad from the Chairman of the Board to the last guy on the bench. Maybe I should have said Jayson Nix so you would have understood.

Tragg
04-22-2010, 11:42 PM
Again, he's giving Peavy a chance to work through his issues. What's the big deal here...

And we had plenty of chances to score runs yet again...

How can this be on Ozzie?!??
Because he left him in just long enough to pitch us out of the game. And he did the same thing with Williams...waited until all the damage was done, then removed him. And he did the same thing with GArcia....
The pen is rested-use it. Give the pen the chance to pitch out of jamsv-that's what they are there for.
Viquel and Kotsay should be late inning replacements to protect leads...

Noneck
04-22-2010, 11:42 PM
I wasn't making a crack at Donny Lucy. I was saying the organization is bad from the Chairman of the Board to the last guy on the bench. Maybe I should have said Jayson Nix so you would have understood.

I knew what you were saying. Just had to get a knock in on AJ.

russ99
04-22-2010, 11:44 PM
Because he left him in just long enough to pitch us out of the game. And he did the same thing with Williams...waited until all the damage was done, then removed him. And he did the same thing with GArcia....
The pen is rested-use it. Give the pen the chance to pitch out of jamsv-that's what they are there for.


Understand your point, but the pen can't handle 5 innings every night. At the rate they're going, those guys will be burned out by mid May.

aryzner
04-22-2010, 11:48 PM
Exactly. It's wasn't Ozzie on the bump tonight. We're all mad about these losses and I've been more pissed at Ozzie than anything this year but this was total Peavy.
We can complain about pitching all we want to, but it sure feels like it's the least of our worries.

Looking this up on MLB.com's sortable team stats right now (may not be updated after tonights game, but...):

Sox are 26th in all of MLB in Runs and 3rd to last in the AL with 57.

Sox are 2nd to last in Hits in all of MLB and last in the AL with 106.

Batting average - Sox literally rank last in all of baseball at .217


Who gives a **** about pitching right now when shown these stats.

EdHerman12
04-22-2010, 11:59 PM
I think Ozzie will last the season....but if current events remain unaltered by season's end...I think the next season will find the White Sox dugout minus the guy wearing #13....

bunty_doghunter
04-23-2010, 12:37 AM
I think Ozzie will last the season....but if current events remain unaltered by season's end...I think the next season will find the White Sox dugout minus the guy wearing #13....
Change we can believe in...

BNLSox
04-23-2010, 01:34 AM
Tonight, no.

Will firing Ozzie during the season accomplish anything? I say no. If someone thinks it will accomplish something please enlighten me.

I think an early season firing sends a loud and clear message to the fan base that ownership is serious about being a contender annually and has no intention to give up on 2010.

I don't think I would agree with the move personally, but from a managing your fan base's expectations and trying to keep butts in the seats perspective - i get it.

Waysouthsider
04-23-2010, 01:38 AM
I still maintain that they need to bump Walker upstairs and bring in Thomas as hitting coach. He learned from one of the best, hit for power and contact to all fields, is a sure-fire hall of famer, the players will listen to him - they're obviously tuning Walker out.

Heck, The Big Hurt just went into the clubhouse the other day and the guys did better.

And best of all, he'll keep Ozzie on his toes, something Ozzie probably needs at this point.


I'm sure with you on this......why not try it...??

Things sure can't get any worse at this point and moving Frank into the mix could make things a lot better....I'm sick of chapter two to 2009 already....all of the same problems....only worse now without any big bats...Maybe Hurt could breath some life into these guys...


Ozzie needs to be on his toes alright...his "don't worry be happy" **** needs to be done.....let's get serious about winning.

BainesHOF
04-23-2010, 02:03 AM
He leaves pitchers in until they pitch the game away...then he takes them out.

This has been an Ozzie trademark. The only thing he knows about pitching is he couldn't hit it.

BainesHOF
04-23-2010, 02:08 AM
Reinsdorf loyalty is killing this organization.

It's loyalty and his mistaken belief that firing a manager and/or a coach absolves the players of their responsibility.

Dibbs
04-23-2010, 03:45 AM
I voted no. He should have been relieved of his duties before tonight.

BainesHOF
04-23-2010, 05:01 AM
Ozzie sounded like he's getting close to quitting.

Rdy2PlayBall
04-23-2010, 09:09 AM
The Ozzie and Walker excuses are getting old. The team is just playing bad. Did Ozzie call for 10 intentional walks? Try again...

pythons007
04-23-2010, 09:41 AM
Everyone on here needs to take a chill pill! Good god, how many people have already jumped off the ledge 16 games into the season? I know the offense isn't performing, but everyone needs to take a deep breath.
:threadblows:

Harry Chappas
04-23-2010, 10:46 AM
Everyone on here needs to take a chill pill! Good god, how many people have already jumped off the ledge 16 games into the season? I know the offense isn't performing, but everyone needs to take a deep breath.
:threadblows:

I'm frustrated beyond belief. I've been a big Guillen supporter over the years, but I see no reason to start giving guys like Beckham and Rios rest this early in the year, especially when your team is struggling.

chisox12
04-23-2010, 12:21 PM
No. We really ****ing suck right now, but you can't blame Ozzie for this piece of **** offense we have so far.

soltrain21
04-23-2010, 12:35 PM
No. We really ****ing suck right now, but you can't blame Ozzie for this piece of **** offense we have so far.

Well, yes. You pretty much can.

TheOldRoman
04-23-2010, 12:44 PM
this is the team he wanted: veterans, low-obp ballplayers with good attitudes. He thinks this is a winning combination. And, sadly, Williams listened to him.
He leaves pitchers in until they pitch the game away...then he takes them out.
Meanwhile Madden and the Rays literally walk all over the Sox, while Guillen and Walker have their players hacking at everything, just like they did as hitters.
Williams is just as much to blame...put this collection of sad sacks together.That is bull****, and anyone who has followed the Sox without an agenda knows it. Yes, sometimes it backfires. When we have a game like last Saturday, it sticks in our heads. Internet geniuses also complain when Ozzie takes guys out "too soon". However, far mor often than not, his decisions aren't the wrong one. Pitchers have to pitch through jams. If he wouldn't have allowed Garland to pitch through them in 04, he would have been mediocre in 05, and this team never wins the championship. Add in the fact that 4/5 of our rotation is excellent, and you expect them to be able to get those outs.

The same thing goes for the bullpen. No matter how good guys are, they will give up runs. Them making a poor pitch doesn't make the move wrong in retrospect. It doesn't matter if a guy puts a runner or even two on base, he is still going to get hitters out at a .700 clip at least, and chances are he gets the next guy. You play the matchups, but ultimately someone has to pitch. You have to trust pitchers to get outs. You can't pull starters any time they get in jams after the 5th inning, and you can't pull relievers every time they put a guy on base. Sometimes your bullpen can't get anybody out, and sometimes it is lights out. That is the nature of the game. Pitchers giving up runs doesn't make the manager bad.

We remember the bad games because they stand out to us. However, if Peavy pitches through the 8th that game, or give up a walk/single, and the BP does its job, we don't have this discussion. We don't make note of the times the decisions are right. We don't remember how many times we "knew" Ozzie was making the wrong move but it ended up working out. We don't remember the times a pitcher got through a rough 6th inning and the cruised through the 8th. For example, I was at the blackout game, and I thought Danks shouldn't have come back out for the 8th, given his pitch count. I was wrong. Ozzie made the right call, but he would have been a moron had Danks made a mistake that inning? GMAB.

jdm2662
04-23-2010, 12:58 PM
Fired tonight? No, too early.

If the season ends like it starts, then yes. His big mouth and act has gotten old quick, just like I said in 2006 if they start losing.

Tragg
04-23-2010, 01:15 PM
Everyone on here needs to take a chill pill! Good god, how many people have already jumped off the ledge 16 games into the season? I know the offense isn't performing, but everyone needs to take a deep breath.
:

The team isn't competive. Guillen's offensive philosophy of low obp baseball is nutty. But nothing will change for a couple of months, if then.

Jim Shorts
04-23-2010, 01:16 PM
The only thing he knows about pitching is he couldn't hit it.


Bob Gibson would like a word with you. I'd watch out for in your ear....

Frankfan4life
04-23-2010, 01:32 PM
Everyone on here needs to take a chill pill! Good god, how many people have already jumped off the ledge 16 games into the season? I know the offense isn't performing, but everyone needs to take a deep breath.
:threadblows:Thank you VOR (Voice of Reason). I'm as angry, frustrated and disappointed as the rest you guys but I'm drawing the line at calling for anyone's head. Not yet, anyway. I feel it's way too early for that.

RCWHITESOX
04-23-2010, 01:35 PM
Ozzie sounded like he's getting close to quitting.

I think it was more of a spur of the moment thing. He was just frustrated seeing the same pathetic performance again. He has to sit there and watch it; when we can just change the channel. It's still early and I still believe things will turn around.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-23-2010, 01:36 PM
No. And 12 out of 23 WSIers have voted in the affirmative so far. A little rash, boys and girls among the dozen?

Yes. I would keep him.

khan
04-23-2010, 01:59 PM
I think this team's problems are multi-fold, and Guillen might be one of them. However, I don't advocate his firing NOW.

Having said this, KW has done a great job of self-scouting the organization, with which he has made deals that have worked out without losing key pieces. [Have any of the youngsters traded away really hurt?]

Ozzie, OTOH, is a poor judge of talent, IMO. This team was assembled to his specifications. And he has deployed the players in the roster in sometimes questionable ways. i.e.: Keeping TCQ batting 3rd while he struggles below the Mendoza Line, batting Vizquel ANYWHERE other than 8th or 9th; Wasting relievers on games that are well out of reach; Keeping Peavey in too long, etc...

There are other examples of this in previous seasons, as well: Remember the moronic idea of trying Uribe as a #2 hitter back in '06-'07? How about using a great utility player, Rob Mackowiac as an everyday CF? How about Erstad as an everyday player?


To me, Ozzie has been given [to the team's detriment] too much voice in terms of how the team is assembled. I state this, because he has made some questionable choices over the course of his tenure here. Ozzie does a LOT of things well, but he seemingly can't self-scout his own roster. In turn, he makes some silly choices at times. KW has to step in, and take more control over the construction of the roster. I've stated this during the offseason, and I stand by it now.

downstairs
04-23-2010, 02:02 PM
No. That's crazy. Who knows- this could just be a slow start. Way to many factors at play, and far to few games to judge.

Lets have this talk in June.

It's Dankerific
04-23-2010, 02:42 PM
We don't remember how many times we "knew" Ozzie was making the wrong move but it ended up working out.

Because that number of events is pretty damn close to zero. Remove 2005, and you'll be scraping the bottom of the barrel for "examples".

Jim Shorts
04-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Because that number of events is pretty damn close to zero. Remove 2005, and you'll be scraping the bottom of the barrel for "examples".


Clearly you're in this just to pile on, because your statement is lunacy.

I'm sure you've forgotten more baseball than Ozzie has in his entire make-up though.

JC456
04-23-2010, 04:28 PM
No. That's crazy. Who knows- this could just be a slow start. Way to many factors at play, and far to few games to judge.

Lets have this talk in June.

I don't know I think 40 games is a good number. This has been going on since Spring Training.

Frontman
04-23-2010, 05:36 PM
No. If Ozzie gets fired; so should Walker and Kenny Williams.

However; I think Walker will be fired first; then Ozzie. Kenny will remain; but will be on a very short leash with JR.

wassagstdu
04-23-2010, 06:29 PM
I believe that I am Ozzie's biggest fan, and have been for 26 years. I believe that he is way, way smarter about baseball than I am. But I also believe he is wrong about his policy of resting position players. OK maybe catchers, but everyone else should be in there every day. There is a lot of failure in baseball, as they say, but its redeeming reality is that you get another chance tomorrow. Unless you have to sit tomorrow. And if you are in a groove, sitting gives you too much time to wonder if you might lose it. I would guess that everyone is more concerned about making a mistake, and at some point they are thinking more about that and less about being aggressive than they should. I hope he gives up that idea, but if he won't then I am not optimistic that players will play to their potential, or that the team will be able to sustain the kind of streaks they will need to salvage this season.

A. Cavatica
04-23-2010, 07:39 PM
OK, the people have spoken! He stays for the moment.

It was interesting watching the results at the end of the game -- running very strongly in favor of firing him -- even out and then go the other way, as people cooled down.

I still think he needs to be fired, but it's because he showed himself to be a weak link in the second half of 2006 and has (mostly) gotten bad results since then. Last night's game wasn't obviously his fault, but I think the team needs a kick in the ass. Just firing Walker wouldn't be enough.

Crestani
04-23-2010, 08:04 PM
:scratch:Bring this up again on June 15th. Until then its pointless because he isn't going anywhere for now.

Better thread would have been "Is Walker going tonight, or this weekend"?

WSox597
04-23-2010, 08:08 PM
I would have voted yes, but it really wouldn't matter. TPTB running the Sox would have just gone out and hired another unknown mutt to finish out the season.

Then, repeat and hire another cheap, unknown manager for next year. (Bevington, Manuel, etc.)

I'd like to see them hire an actual, known quantity for the next manager. There aren't many Joe Torres around, but he's just an example. Hire an actual talent next time, not an experiment.

Tragg
04-23-2010, 08:52 PM
Guillen put the Sox into this mess with his poor talent evaluation skills, nutty offensive philosophies (obp isn't particularly important, e.g.), and putting poor defensive teams on the field. This is the team he wanted.
This is Guillen's mess.

Williams bears responsibilty for giving into Guillen.

Walker would be a scapegoat.
That's not to say he's an effective hittinng coach...but this team's problems are far deeper than Walker's coaching.

Zelemont
04-23-2010, 09:01 PM
I think an early season firing sends a loud and clear message to the fan base that ownership is serious about being a contender annually and has no intention to give up on 2010.

I don't think I would agree with the move personally, but from a managing your fan base's expectations and trying to keep butts in the seats perspective - i get it. effin EXACTLY! We are the customers, give us some inkling that you are even paying attention. Sure, a week in it was too early to say a change needed to be made. A week later, it was looking pretty nasty, but maybe it was still a fluke.

16 games in, yeah it is still early, but as a fan I would hope that by now, seeing that the problems appear to be consistent, that the owners would at least signal to the fans that they recognize something needs to be done to make this a winning season. Instead, they seem to be signaling that the plan is to sit around and watch while praying the team magically comes together and executes. I spent way too many hours doing that last season, and as a fan I am either going to be given some inkling of hope, or just quit watching for now. I may sound like a fairweather fan there, but I am not going to suddenly root for the cubs. I am just going to wait until the Sox can show me something to get excited about. Who likes to be disappointed over and over again?

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2010, 01:09 AM
...I also believe he is wrong about his policy of resting position players. OK maybe catchers, but everyone else should be in there every day.
That is a recipe for disaster. It's a 162 game season, plus all the travel. Your team will be absolutely spent by September.

Frater Perdurabo
04-24-2010, 01:11 AM
That is a recipe for disaster. It's a 162 game season, plus all the travel. Your team will be absolutely spent by September.

I agree. But Ozzie also rests some of his starters too much, and plays some of his "tremendous" bench players too much.

jabrch
04-24-2010, 01:13 AM
effin EXACTLY! We are the customers, give us some inkling that you are even paying attention.

You need a firing to convince you that management/ownership are paying attention? Really?

I am just going to wait until the Sox can show me something to get excited about. Who likes to be disappointed over and over again?

And a FIRING is what will get you excited?

Wow

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2010, 01:14 AM
I agree. But Ozzie also rests some of his starters too much, and plays some of his "tremendous" bench players too much.That's certainly a very defensible argument. On the other hand, bench players who don't get much playing time are not of much use when they're actually needed. It's a tough juggling act.

jabrch
04-24-2010, 01:15 AM
That's certainly a very defensible argument. On the other hand, bench players who don't get much playing time are not of much use when they're actually needed. It's a tough juggling act.


Agreed - and there is no right/wrong on this one. It's just not provable either way. It is a very delicate balance.

Frater Perdurabo
04-24-2010, 01:24 AM
That's certainly a very defensible argument. On the other hand, bench players who don't get much playing time are not of much use when they're actually needed. It's a tough juggling act.

Agreed - and there is no right/wrong on this one. It's just not provable either way. It is a very delicate balance.

Can we all agree that Jones has earned a "full time" role? Can we all agree that unless and until he tanks, he needs to be playing six games per week?

Other than that, I think Ozzie balances the starting and backup catchers quite well. But I do think historically he's given too much playing time to really crappy bench players, especially those that hit left handed, because of the "by the book" idea that they will always hit right-handed pitching better than the often-superior right-handed batter.

jabrch
04-24-2010, 01:35 AM
Can we all agree that Jones has earned a "full time" role? Can we all agree that unless and until he tanks, he needs to be playing six games per week?

Other than that, I think Ozzie balances the starting and backup catchers quite well. But I do think historically he's given too much playing time to really crappy bench players, especially those that hit left handed, because of the "by the book" idea that they will always hit right-handed pitching better than the often-superior right-handed batter.

6? 5? whatever...

Jones has had a recent history of getting hurt. If management and trainers agree that he can play a full season 4-5 days a week, or a half season 6 days a week, I'll take the former. I don't have all the information - and I don't know. I do agree that we are better with Jones in the lineup, right now, than with him out. But a manager's job is not to win the game today. It is to do what is best for the team for the year. It is my opinion that the manager, along with the GM and the staff are better suited than Joe Webbrowser to make this call.

Nellie_Fox
04-24-2010, 01:36 AM
Can we all agree that Jones has earned a "full time" role? Can we all agree that unless and until he tanks, he needs to be playing six games per week?Five or six, yes. A day off once in a great while would not be out of line.

Craig Grebeck
04-24-2010, 01:42 AM
I guess it'd be easier to understand or defend Ozzie's decisions regarding keeping guys "fresh" if his teams weren't abysmal in August and September.