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LITTLE NELL
04-21-2010, 08:05 AM
Since I've been following the Sox (early 1950s) they have had way too many busts from the farm system.
Here are my top products that played the majority of their career with the Sox.
Frank Thomas
Luis Aparicio
Harold Baines
Magglio Ordonez
Mark Buehrle
Robin Ventura


Honorable mention to;
Joe Crede
Joel Horlen
Gary Peters
Jack McDowell
Bill Melton
Carlos May
Carlos Lee
Bobby Thigpen
Jimmy Landis

Guys we traded who became stars.
Denny Mclain
Norm Cash
Johnny Callison
Goose Gossage
Bucky Dent

I'm sure I missed someone so add or subtract, also who were the biggest busts?

Bee Bee Richard, Nyls Nyman, Kip Wells are a few that come to mind.

JohnTucker0814
04-21-2010, 08:17 AM
Bobby Bonilla
Alex Fernandez
Roberto Hernandez

Don't know if those two were part of our farm system, but they contributed quite a bit at the major league level.

LITTLE NELL
04-21-2010, 08:22 AM
Bobby Bonilla
Alex Fernandez
Roberto Hernandez

Don't know if those two were part of our farm system, but they contributed quite a bit at the major league level.

We drafted Bonilla from the Pirates system.

SI1020
04-21-2010, 09:02 AM
Considering the time frame, it's not all that impressive a list. IMO it shows how hard Sox GMs have had to work to keep the team competitive.

LITTLE NELL
04-21-2010, 09:11 AM
Considering the time frame, it's not all that impressive a list. IMO it shows how hard Sox GMs have had to work to keep the team competitive.

Not a lot of Hall of Famers, Aparicio is in, Frank will get in and maybe Baines.
Gossage is in but he will always be known as a Yankee, in fact he's wearing a NY hat in his HOF plaque.

Dibbs
04-21-2010, 09:16 AM
I think Ray Durham deserves at least honorable mention. He is way underrated in my opinion. He is a guy who had twice the career Joe Crede had, but gets half the love.

LITTLE NELL
04-21-2010, 09:23 AM
I think Ray Durham deserves at least honorable mention. He is way underrated in my opinion. He is a guy who had twice the career Joe Crede had, but gets half the love.

Good choice for Honorable Mention.

Railsplitter
04-21-2010, 09:27 AM
Considering the time frame, it's not all that impressive a list. IMO it shows how hard Sox GMs have had to work to keep the team competitive.

I think it shows how bad the Sox farm system was during the Veeck/ Allyn years, though why hasn't Wilbur Wood been mentioned? Was he picked up from sombody else's farm system?

SI1020
04-21-2010, 09:34 AM
I think it shows how bad the Sox farm system was during the Veeck/ Allyn years, though why hasn't Wilbur Wood been mentioned? Was he picked up from sombody else's farm system? Wood, a native of Massachusetts, was originally signed by the Boston Red Sox. The Sox got him in a trade with the Pirates after the 1966 season for Juan Pizarro.

eriqjaffe
04-21-2010, 11:39 AM
I think that Black Jack, with a Cy Young Award (and finishing second in the voting another time) should rank more than an Honorable Mention. That being said, I'd give Alex Fernandez an HM.

Paulwny
04-21-2010, 11:42 AM
The 1st Hispanic American League All Star, Chico Carrasquel.

JohnTucker0814
04-21-2010, 12:12 PM
Mike Cameron - He's had a pretty solid MLB career

SI1020
04-21-2010, 12:14 PM
Mike Cameron - He's had a pretty solid MLB career Not bad at all for an 18th round pick.

downstairs
04-21-2010, 12:19 PM
This got me thinking. I'd love for someone to research the best farm systems in baseball history. Maybe base it on Hall of Famers, all stars, some other stat(s).

The best teams are obvious- Yankees being first, etc. etc.

But what farm systems grew the best players? Anyone want to wager some guesses?

Chez
04-21-2010, 12:35 PM
Bobby Bonilla
Alex Fernandez
Roberto Hernandez

Don't know if those two were part of our farm system, but they contributed quite a bit at the major league level.


I believe Roberto came to us from the Angels system.

Brian Downing came up through our system, was traded and went on to have a solid big league career. We drafted Doug Drabek, traded him, he went on to have a solid career and then we got him back at the end of the line.

wilburaga
04-21-2010, 12:38 PM
Bobby Bonilla
Alex Fernandez
Roberto Hernandez

Don't know if those two were part of our farm system, but they contributed quite a bit at the major league level.

Hernandez really doesn't belong on this list either. He was a first round pick of the Angels in 1986, was traded to the Sox in August of 1989, and got to the majors in for good during the 1992 season.

TDog
04-21-2010, 01:09 PM
I think it shows how bad the Sox farm system was during the Veeck/ Allyn years, ...

The White Sox emerged as a winning team in the 1950s through great trades, acquiring players like Billy Pierce from the Tigers and Nellie Fox from the A's. They purchased Chico Carasquel from the Dodgers. By the late '50s, though, they were scouting and signing some very good talent. Of course, they found Aparicio in Venezuela, but they also were signing players like Norm Cash, Johnny Callison and Earl Battey who they traded away after the 1959 season.

Although the Sox contended through 1967 and finished one game behind the Yankees in 1964 (a team that was led by home-grown pitchers Gary Peters and Joe Horlen but also got major contributions from players they received in return for trading Aparicio), their mode as the decade wore on was, just as it was for Veeck after 1959, to trade young players with potential, such as Tommie Agee (who was a Rookie of the Year after they picked him up from the Indians system along with Tommy John) and Don Buford (who they traded to get Aparicio back) to help them continue to win. Late in the decade, they had didn't have great talent at the major league level, and they had precious little in their farm system. And during that time, the rules of scouting, or at least signing, talent changed because the amateur draft began in the mid-'60s, not coincidentally sending the Yankees into last place and creating the foundation for an A's dynasty that ended with the advent of free agency.

Had Mickey Mantle been born a couple of decades later, the Yankees wouldn't have developed him, but he very well could be wearing a Yankees cap on his Hall of Fame plaque. In the early 1960s, no one was scouting and developing pitchers the way the Indians were, with Sam McDowell, Sonny Siebert, Tommy John and Luis Tiant in the minor leagues. By the end of the decade they were a last place team.

You can't simply say the White Sox weren't developing talent in the Veeck/Allyn years -- which essentially takes you from 1959 all the way to the team's purchase by the Reinsdorf/Einhorn group. Indeed, those teams could have done more with the draft and international scouting. There were bad decisions. The Denny McLain story has been obsessed over on these pages. But the Sox also were trading away a lot of young talent. Most teams were, but it was a major factor leading to the sharp fall of the Sox at the end of the 1960s.

SI1020
04-21-2010, 01:45 PM
In the 1950s the Sox were quite good as signing and developing talent. However after the favored Sox were dumped by the Dodgers in the 59 WS, Veeck obsessed about the team's perennial lack of power. So before you knew it Norm Cash, John Romano, Earl Battey, Don Mincher, and Johnny Callison were gone. They were basically traded for aging veteran stop gap help. Minnie Minoso was welcomed back with open arms by the fans but he had only two good years left in him. As did Roy Sievers who was obtained for Mincher and Battey. Johnny Callison for Gene Freese was a very bad trade somewhat mitigated by the subsequent trade of Freese for Cal McLish and Juan Pizarro. In any case by the end of the 62 the Sox were sliding down the ladder. Ed Short reinvigorated the team with a block buster trade that brought Ron Hansen, Hoyt Wilhelm, Pete Ward and Dave Nicholson. That, coupled with some of the most awesome pitching in Sox history carried the team through the 67 season. Then the bottom fell out. When the Sox were again on the ropes after the 75 season and about to be moved to Seattle courtesy of the American League, some felt the least Veeck could do was to come in and buy the team. The long term affects of some of the moves made under his previous ownership were devastating.

seventyseven
04-21-2010, 01:46 PM
I'm sure I missed someone so add or subtract, also who were the biggest busts?

Bee Bee Richard, Nyls Nyman, Kip Wells are a few that come to mind.

Joe ****ing Borchard.

pudge
04-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Joe ****ing Borchard.

Josh Fields
Brian Anderson
Kris Honel
Lance Broadway

As for successes, Alex Fernandez for sure, #4 overall pick.

Chez
04-21-2010, 01:59 PM
Perhaps too soon to tell, but I fear we may soon be adding Jon Rauch to the "good ones we traded away" list.

twinsuck
04-21-2010, 02:12 PM
Perhaps too soon to tell, but I fear we may soon be adding Jon Rauch to the "good ones we traded away" list.
dude, that guy's scary looking..

Lip Man 1
04-21-2010, 02:39 PM
To be fair to Veeck regarding the deals he made before the start of the 1960 season, he knew baseball talent and originally had little intentions of bringing back Minoso or getting iron-glove Gene Freese. (He did have interest for two years with Roy Sievers...)

Veeck targeted Orlando Cepeda from the Giants and Bill White of the Cardinals as the two sluggars he wanted. He made various offers to both those teams including Sherm Lollar in a deal with San Francisco but was never able to make it happen.

His mistake was "settling" if you can use that word for the players he got. Ironically Minoso, Sievers and Freese had good seasons in 1960, the Sox who were in the race through late August, lost out because their regulars - Aparicio, Landis, Fox and Wynn all had off years.

Doesn't excuse Veeck as it turned out, but it does add some context to the story.

And the Sox made serious attempts in the 1960's to try to get Yaz, Frank Robinson and Hawk Harrelson in various deals / situations. It just wasn't to be. The deal for Frank Robinson that the Sox offered was Floyd Robinson, Johnny Buzhardt and a third player.

All things considered however, 17 straight winning years, a pennant in 59, seven season of 90+ wins and nationally known players works damn fine for me.

I'd love to see the Sox today pull off 17 straight winning seasons.

Here's my story on some of the "what if's" in Sox history, including the little known fact that the Sox almost signed Fernando.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=3435

Lip

soxrme
04-21-2010, 03:08 PM
Kevin Bell, lost to a bad knee injury.