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Lip Man 1
04-18-2010, 06:40 PM
I don't know...maybe this is legit, maybe not. Sounds like the team is mentally weak if this is in fact the case.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0419-white-sox-bits--20100418,0,1560038.story

It's not like they've played 140 games or even 20 yet.

Lip

cards press box
04-18-2010, 06:46 PM
I don't know...maybe this is legit, maybe not. Sounds like the team is mentally weak if this is in fact the case.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0419-white-sox-bits--20100418,0,1560038.story

It's not like they've played 140 games or even 20 yet.

Lip

But the Sox are playing tight right now and it shows. Doesn't it seem as though all of the Sox right handed powers are trying to hit the ball 800 feet and are just hitting routine grounders to short and third? I think that Walker is right: they just need to relax and just play ball. I have to believe, though, that is easier said than done.

Sox
04-18-2010, 06:48 PM
If that's the problem as Walker says it is...then what's the solution? How do you get a Big League hitter to get over the 'anxiety" of the game. I would have thought that in today's game at the major league level that would be a non-issue. I think that someone is just grasping at straws trying to identify a problem or an excuse for the Sox's hitting woes right now.

Its like a knocking and pinging noise under the hood of a car and saying it could be problem x that's causing it when it's really problem y.

GoGoCrede
04-18-2010, 06:51 PM
I'm just not sure I get it. These players have a great pitching staff. That pitching staff was was pretty good at limiting the earned runs in the first week. They play for a great city, and there's more than one guy who is capable of hitting well. You'd think they would be able to approach the plate with some confidence because of these factors. I know it's easier said than done.

Or maybe Walker's just full of it.

Scottiehaswheels
04-18-2010, 06:52 PM
Haven't displayed enough aggressiveness? How about rolling grounders to short/second on the first pitch from a pitcher that has people on 1st and 2nd and having them get out of it with the double play. Not enough aggressiveness? ***? Are we watching the same thing Walker? How about you get Quentin; et. al. to take a ****** pitch?

GoGoCrede
04-18-2010, 06:53 PM
Haven't displayed enough aggressiveness? How about rolling grounders to short/second on the first pitch from a pitcher that has people on 1st and 2nd and having them get out of it with the double play. Not enough aggressiveness? ***? Are we watching the same thing Walker? How about you get Quentin; et. al. to take a ****** pitch?

By the way, :happybday Sorry the Sox couldn't give you a win.

Scottiehaswheels
04-18-2010, 06:54 PM
By the way, :happybday Sorry the Sox couldn't give you a win.Ha thanks!

Madscout
04-18-2010, 06:56 PM
Haven't displayed enough aggressiveness? How about rolling grounders to short/second on the first pitch from a pitcher that has people on 1st and 2nd and having them get out of it with the double play. Not enough aggressiveness? ***? Are we watching the same thing Walker? How about you get Quentin; et. al. to take a ****** pitch?
I gotta agree. It seems that when guy has a long AB and gets a walk out of it, the next hitter comes up looking to kill the first pitch.

Daver
04-18-2010, 06:59 PM
How's this for an excuse, the sum total of the 25 man roster is well above average starting pitching and mediocre at best offense and defense, it doesn't take rocket surgery to figure that out, it's been pretty obvious since spring training started.

tstrike2000
04-18-2010, 07:01 PM
For as much as the offense as a whole is struggling, it's a Kenny Williams feast or famine offense predicated around veterans who were taken a risk on that may or may not deliver.

voodoochile
04-18-2010, 07:20 PM
For as much as the offense as a whole is struggling, it's a Kenny Williams feast or famine offense predicated around veterans who were taken a risk on that may or may not deliver.

Yeah, but the question marks have been the guys who have been the most consistent so far. Teahen, Rios and Jones are actually generating some offense.

Beckham, TCQ, PK have been feast or famine.

white sox bill
04-18-2010, 07:29 PM
I for one, will not panic. Its a long, long season. We've dug a hole, but not insurmountable. Will save the dark clouds for much later in season.

Just exhale and relax. Chill. Come down off the ledge.

Corlose 15
04-18-2010, 07:34 PM
Yeah, but the question marks have been the guys who have been the most consistent so far. Teahen, Rios and Jones are actually generating some offense.

Beckham, TCQ, PK have been feast or famine.

THANK YOU! People need to look at some of the boxscores, it isn't the new guys are aren't hitting, it's the core players.

HomeFish
04-18-2010, 07:42 PM
Rios has been a pleasant surprise thus far

soxinem1
04-18-2010, 07:57 PM
THANK YOU! People need to look at some of the boxscores, it isn't the new guys are aren't hitting, it's the core players.

There are a couple ways to look at this.

For one, before the season you could compare the White Sox to SF. Much like us, the Giants were deemed to be very strong in the arm department, and weak in the lumber.

But the Giants are off to a great start, and are second in the league in runs, with Juan Uribe, Bengie Molina, Edgar Renteria and Eugenio Velez all hitting way over their heads. Aaron Rowand and Aubrey Huff look reborn and everyone is hitting up a storm.

Uribe leads the team in RBI and even Tim Lincecum is hitting over .400.

Secondly, if we compare lineup to lineup on paper, I'd bet our guys will be more likely to be productive in the long run than the Giants will.

The question is, will it be too late by then?

Meanwhile, our core of returnees is doing nothing. PK, AJ, Ramirez, Quentin, and Beckham are just flat.

In fact, Beckham needs to be moved from the #2 spot and TCQ should be dropped to seven. Put Ramirez at #2 and kick everyone else up.

kitekrazy
04-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Maybe they aren't very good at baseball.

Konerko05
04-18-2010, 08:01 PM
I find it odd that the whole entire team started the season with this attitude- trying too hard and putting too much pressure on themselves.

You would think a new season, and a turned over roster would give their minds a fresh start to the season. What exactly is going on this clubhouse/dugout?

I knew the offense was going to be bad this year, but I don't think anyone believed it would be this bad.

Lip Man 1
04-18-2010, 08:06 PM
Konerko:

My theory and I have no proof one way or the other is that guys come to the Sox, see the inviting fences at U.S. Cellular Field and start with a "bombs away" attitude.

I also think it's not deliberate, much of it is subconscious but it's happening.

I've talked to a number of players who played at Fenway when the Sox would come in and to a man they said you had to be extremely careful about trying to get it over the left field wall that there were times no matter what they tried to do, they couldn't help themselves.

I think that is going on here which accounts for the bad RISP percentage, pop up's, strikeouts against junkballers and so on.

If true I don't know if that's something Ozzie or Walker could cure if they wanted to.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2010, 08:14 PM
Konerko:

My theory and I have no proof one way or the other is that guys come to the Sox, see the inviting fences at U.S. Cellular Field and start with a "bombs away" attitude.

I also think it's not deliberate, much of it is subconscious but it's happening.

I've talked to a number of players who played at Fenway when the Sox would come in and to a man they said you had to be extremely careful about trying to get it over the left field wall that there were times no matter what they tried to do, they couldn't help themselves.

I think that is going on here which accounts for the bad RISP percentage, pop up's, strikeouts against junkballers and so on.

If true I don't know if that's something Ozzie or Walker could cure if they wanted to.

Lip

Lip, do you think Ron Gardenhire, Tom Kelly, Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, Fredi Gonzalez, et. al., would allow their hitters to just go "bombs away" and swing for the fences?

PhillipsBubba
04-18-2010, 08:18 PM
Yes it's early, Yes it's cold and Yes teams have started off worse that this.

I just feel we deserve better.

I don't want to hear Kenny crying poor mouth later in the season about how fans should show up so he'll be able to make some deals.

He's had all fall and winter to improve the team. If he has to fire Ozzie and Walker to get the teams attention then he should do it.

They should be embarrassed by their performance thus far!

http://208.106.181.133/_media/imgs/articles/a128_whome.jpg

WhiteSox5187
04-18-2010, 08:19 PM
Lip, do you think Ron Gardenhire, Tom Kelly, Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, Fredi Gonzalez, et. al., would allow their hitters to just go "bombs away" and swing for the fences?

How the hell would they stop them? If you have 14 hitters or whatever who are all hell bent on swinging for the fences (consciously or subconsciously) how the hell do you stop them?

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2010, 08:22 PM
How the hell would they stop them? If you have 14 hitters or whatever who are all hell bent on swinging for the fences (consciously or subconsciously) how the hell do you stop them?

There are plenty of things coaches can do to get their players' attention and break their bad habits: Run laps, drills, practice, etc.

WhiteSox5187
04-18-2010, 08:24 PM
Also, if this provides any consolation, as late as May 18, 1983 the Sox were seven games under .500 with two guys in the starting line up hitting over .250 and no one with an OPS over .800. There is still time to turn things around.

Frontman
04-18-2010, 08:26 PM
There are plenty of things coaches can do to get their players' attention and break their bad habits: Run laps, drills, practice, etc.

These are professionals. That sort of motivation works on highschool and college players. Do you honestly think Konerko; who will bank a few million this season no matter how bad he hits, is tune in or tune out when it comes to that sort of nonsense?

Paul might be a hell of a nice guy; but I highly doubt he'd take to the concept of "Oh, I better stop taking that first pitch belt high fast ball every time and stop swinging at that 0-1 down and outside garbage pitch?"

What this team needs to do is stop listening to every talking head, every radio show, every internet poster; and play and manage the damn game to the best of their abilities.

All of these guys are better athletes than this by far. Time to start showing it.

thomas35forever
04-18-2010, 08:34 PM
Yes, the season is only two weeks old. However, if the hitters really are mentally weak, it's time to look in a different direction. There's no place for that in the Major Leagues. Get rid of the players who aren't confident in themselves in big situations and find some players who are. Even if it means breaking up the core, so be it. I'd rather see players step up to the plate and make outs while never losing confidence than players who are capable of coming through but always let the pressure get to their heads.

WhiteSox5187
04-18-2010, 08:35 PM
There are plenty of things coaches can do to get their players' attention and break their bad habits: Run laps, drills, practice, etc.

In high school maybe, I really don't think that works well on millionare athletes. If it did, no major league would have a bad habit because they'd all be running laps.

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2010, 08:36 PM
These are professionals. That sort of motivation works on highschool and college players. Do you honestly think Konerko; who will bank a few million this season no matter how bad he hits, is tune in or tune out when it comes to that sort of nonsense?

Paul might be a hell of a nice guy; but I highly doubt he'd take to the concept of "Oh, I better stop taking that first pitch belt high fast ball every time and stop swinging at that 0-1 down and outside garbage pitch?"

What this team needs to do is stop listening to every talking head, every radio show, every internet poster; and play and manage the damn game to the best of their abilities.

All of these guys are better athletes than this by far. Time to start showing it.

Maybe not Paulie, but Beckham and Quentin remain young enough to be "influenced" by effective teaching and coaching methods.

I'm not a coach, but I am an award-winning teacher (as voted on by my professional peers) and come from a family of teachers. And when you have young players, teaching is part of your job. Ozzie and Walker are abdicating that essential part of their job.

WhiteSox5187
04-18-2010, 08:40 PM
Maybe not Paulie, but Beckham and Quentin remain young enough to be "influenced" by effective teaching and coaching methods.

I'm not a coach, but I am an award-winning teacher (as voted on by my professional peers) and come from a family of teachers. And when you have young players, teaching is part of your job. Ozzie and Walker are abdicating that essential part of their job.

I think you could argue that by the time you get the majors coaches shouldn't really be teaching anything. The minors are what teaching is for. If you can't do certain things well in the majors, well, christ, you have got problems.

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2010, 08:40 PM
In high school maybe, I really don't think that works well on millionare athletes. If it did, no major league would have a bad habit because they'd all be running laps.

I don't think Beckham and Quentin are millionaires, yet.

And no, you can't treat everyone "the same." Good teachers know that it often takes different motivational tactics to maximize the abilities of each individual student. Bad teachers don't know the difference. Every shred of evidence I have ever seen shows me that Walker and Guillen are bad teachers, and therefore suck at a crucial and significant part of their job.

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2010, 08:42 PM
I think you could argue that by the time you get the majors coaches shouldn't really be teaching anything. The minors are what teaching is for. If you can't do certain things well in the majors, well, christ, you have got problems.

The only position players on the Sox who spent any time in the Sox minor league system are Lucy and Beckham, and Beckham didn't even spend a year there.

Teaching for continuous improvement doesn't seem to be a problem for Ron Gardenhire.

Lip Man 1
04-18-2010, 08:45 PM
Daver has pointed out in the past how bad the Sox minor league system is at teaching fundamentals, that the only criteria for moving up the ranks is "hitting" at the expense of everything else.

Now that may be changing under Buddy Bell. I don't know.

Lip

DickAllen72
04-18-2010, 08:50 PM
Daver has pointed out in the past how bad the Sox minor league system is at teaching fundamentals, that the only criteria for moving up the ranks is "hitting" at the expense of everything else.
Lip
I can't wait for some of those "hitters" to arrive! :tongue:

SCCWS
04-18-2010, 08:59 PM
Maybe not Paulie, but Beckham and Quentin remain young enough to be "influenced" by effective teaching and coaching methods.

I'm not a coach, but I am an award-winning teacher (as voted on by my professional peers) and come from a family of teachers. And when you have young players, teaching is part of your job. Ozzie and Walker are abdicating that essential part of their job.


Wait a minute. Ozzie is an award-winning manager. He was voted Manager of the Year in 2005. Ozzie is a Latin and comes from a family of Latins. Ozzie was the first Latin born manager to win a World Series. There are thousands of award-winning teachers every year. There is only one AL manager of the year each year.
Walker may very well be abdicating the essential part of his job. But he was AL Player of the month in 9/84.

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2010, 09:00 PM
Wait a minute. Ozzie is an award-winning manager. He was voted Manager of the Year in 2005. Ozzie is a Latin and comes from a family of Latins. Ozzie was the first Latin born manager to win a World Series. There are thousands of award-winning teachers every year. There is only one AL manager of the year each year.
Walker may very well be abdicating the essential part of his job. But he was AL Player of the month in 9/84.

Ozzie got complacent and lazy after winning the World Series.

My point is that I may not be able to identify excellent baseball coaching practices, but I can identify when someone is not doing a good job of teaching. Neither Ozzie nor Walker are doing a good job of teaching.

WhiteSox5187
04-18-2010, 09:07 PM
The only position players on the Sox who spent any time in the Sox minor league system are Lucy and Beckham, and Beckham didn't even spend a year there.

Teaching for continuous improvement doesn't seem to be a problem for Ron Gardenhire.

I don't think Gardenhire teaches anything. His players execute better because they are taught to execute better in the minor leagues. Ozzie nor Walker are supposed to teach these guys anything. If players don't know how to bunt, to take the ball the other way, etc. at the major league level, then they don't belong at the major league level.

Also what this team is struggling with is hitting with runners in scoring position. How do you teach that? There are guys like Anderson who from what some people here were saying is that Walker would tell him "Do this, do that," and he could do it in BP, but not in the game situation.

SCCWS
04-18-2010, 09:14 PM
Ozzie got complacent and lazy after winning the World Series.

My point is that I may not be able to identify excellent baseball coaching practices, but I can identify when someone is not doing a good job of teaching. Neither Ozzie nor Walker are doing a good job of teaching.

I saw a lot of posters raving about Beckham last season. Did Ozzie do a good job with him last year and a lousy job this year?
Did Ozzie do a good job w Quentin in 2008 when he had the great year? Did he listen to Ozzie in 2008 and not this year?
Look at the job Ozzie did w Buehrle last year. He threw a perfect game because of Ozzie's teaching.

If a student fails, are you the teacher automatically to blame?

Frater Perdurabo
04-18-2010, 09:17 PM
I saw a lot of posters raving about Beckham last season. Did Ozzie do a good job with him last year and a lousy job this year?
Did Ozzie do a good job w Quentin in 2008 when he had the great year? Did he listen to Ozzie in 2008 and not this year?
Look at the job Ozzie did w Buehrle last year. He threw a perfect game because of Ozzie's teaching.

If a student fails, are you the teacher automatically to blame?

It may not be my fault, but it is my responsibility.

Same holds true for the manager of a baseball team.

SCCWS
04-18-2010, 09:25 PM
It may not be my fault, but it is my responsibility.

Same holds true for the manager of a baseball team.

Fair comment but you are in the minority. Florida teachers are in total upheaval with the attempt to eliminate seniority and institute results-based performance standards. Rhode Island has the same upheaval with the recent firing of all of one city's high-school teachers due to student performance.

Noneck
04-18-2010, 09:25 PM
I don't think Gardenhire teaches anything. His players execute better because they are taught to execute better in the minor leagues. Ozzie nor Walker are supposed to teach these guys anything. If players don't know how to bunt, to take the ball the other way, etc. at the major league level, then they don't belong at the major league level.



The difference is when you have a minor league system like the Twins have, Gardenhire doesnt have to teach at the major league level.

On the other hand when you have a minor league system like the Sox have, teaching is needed at the major league level.

SCCWS
04-18-2010, 09:30 PM
The difference is when you have a minor league system like the Twins have, Gardenhire doesnt have to teach at the major league level.

On the other hand when you have a minor league system like the Sox have, teaching is needed at the major league level.

Agree w the Twins. But how many hitters on this White Sox roster spent 1 full year in the White Sox minors?

Rdy2PlayBall
04-18-2010, 09:31 PM
The difference is when you have a minor league system like the Twins have, Gardenhire doesnt have to teach at the major league level.

On the other hand when you have a minor league system like the Sox have, teaching is needed at the major league level.We should send Coop to the minors for a year so we can get a batch of young Cy Young award winners. :tongue:

Paulwny
04-18-2010, 09:36 PM
Lip, do you think Ron Gardenhire, Tom Kelly, Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, Fredi Gonzalez, et. al., would allow their hitters to just go "bombs away" and swing for the fences?

How the hell would they stop them? If you have 14 hitters or whatever who are all hell bent on swinging for the fences (consciously or subconsciously) how the hell do you stop them?

There are plenty of things coaches can do to get their players' attention and break their bad habits: Run laps, drills, practice, etc.


You start by benching some players until they listen to what you're telling them.

theamb
04-18-2010, 09:37 PM
Ozzie got complacent and lazy after winning the World Series.



I wouldn't say that Ozzie became complacent after '05.

I feel with or with Ozzie, everything that could possibly go the Sox way that season would still happen.

That was just a lightning in a bottle year

Noneck
04-18-2010, 09:47 PM
But how many hitters on this White Sox roster spent 1 full year in the White Sox minors?

Not many, but if the younger players from different organizations did not get the training needed, then it has to be up to the Sox at the major league level.

soltrain21
04-18-2010, 10:27 PM
So, Mr. Walker, you just threw all of your hitters under the bus and said it's on them and their anxiety. Why not at least throw in some bull**** quote about how you are going to TRY to help them or not.

If all it takes to be a hitting coach is to say, "Well - they are putting pressure on themselves." then sign me up.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-18-2010, 10:29 PM
My favorite part of that link is below the story where they call today's lineup changes an effort to kick start the offense.

voodoochile
04-18-2010, 10:44 PM
So, Mr. Walker, you just threw all of your hitters under the bus and said it's on them and their anxiety. Why not at least throw in some bull**** quote about how you are going to TRY to help them or not.

If all it takes to be a hitting coach is to say, "Well - they are putting pressure on themselves." then sign me up.

Yes, I'm sure that's all it takes and all he'll do...:rolleyes:

soltrain21
04-18-2010, 10:47 PM
Yes, I'm sure that's all it takes and all he'll do...:rolleyes:

I haven't seen much improvement from any particular hitter since his tenure here, have you? We surely don't see any situational hitting, either.

voodoochile
04-18-2010, 10:52 PM
I haven't seen much improvement from any particular hitter since his tenure here, have you? We surely don't see any situational hitting, either.

Isn't there already a thread on whether Walker should be fired?

soltrain21
04-18-2010, 10:54 PM
Isn't there already a thread on whether Walker should be fired?

I must be misreading when other people are mentioning coaching in here, then.

johnny bench
04-18-2010, 10:57 PM
The White Sox have the 7th highest payroll in baseball this year. http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries at $108MM. I looked at the details http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/teams/r...;pageContainer (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/teams/roster/CHW/chicago-white-sox?tag=pageRow;pageContainer) of how the payroll is allocated between pitchers and position players. White Sox starters and relief pitchers are pulling down about $54MM this year, or about 50% of the total payroll. That means that position players are paid a further $54MM. Starting pitchers alone will make about $35MM, or 32% of payroll.

This 2010 White Sox team was built to beat the Twins, right? The Twins have a pitching payroll of $35MM, which includes Nathan. This leaves payroll of about $62MM for Twins position players. That's right, the Twins position players earn almost $10MM more than the White Sox position players.

When you compare the Twins and White Sox to the rest of the American league, they are really at the opposite extremes. No team in the AL has allocated a greater percentage of payroll to pitching than the WS (except the Indians thanks to Kerry Wood), and no team has allocated less than the Twins.

How can the Twins possibly get through a full season with that low-end pitching staff? Well, so far, they are doing just fine. Their ERA is 0.5 lower than the WS, and they have issued almost 50% fewer walks than the gold-plated Sox staff to this point. That's 26 fewer base runners in 13 games due to walks alone.

Kenny Williams laid down a huge bet when he constructed this team. He overloaded his payroll on pitching, both starters and relievers. He went way beyond what other American league teams were willing to allocate in terms of pitching. And he under-spent on position players. Even I understand that you can't expect pitching to carry a team on it's back without help from the offense. But it sure seems to me that Kenny Williams expects that.

So, shouldn't the White Sox $54MM payroll for position players be enough to compete? Tigers don't think so: their position player payroll is more than $70MM. The Twins are spending $62MM.

This team is doing poorly because of player performance. But KW built this team on a risky foundation. Unless this pitching staff can really turn things around and excel during the balance of the year, then we are done. I personally have no expectation that we will add substantial payroll mid-season to improve the team.

Throwing the hitters under the bus? Just plain stupid.

OTOH, I think Coop has got a lot of splainin to do. He's got a Mercedes that runs like a Chevy. Good thing he's a genius.

WhiteSox5187
04-18-2010, 10:58 PM
You start by benching some players until they listen to what you're telling them.

You gotta put at least nine guys out there. Can't bench everyone.

Tragg
04-18-2010, 10:59 PM
Ozzie got complacent and lazy after winning the World Series.


I think he got a fat head after winning the WS and when 06 turned into a disappointment, he took the opening wanted to show that if he won one WS with Ozzie ball offense, he can win with Ozzie-ball squared. I think he liked the offense coming into the last 4 seasons.

The Sox won because of lock down pitching and exceptional defense....the Sox won DESPITE a mediocre offense.

psyclonis
04-18-2010, 11:13 PM
That means that position players are paid a further $54MM.

If you factor in the $7M from the Dodgers this year for Pierre, it comes to about $47M

But then again, other than having a power left handed bat... The Sox looked good on paper. (2nd/3rd best rotation in the AL and best offense in the central)

I think its best just to blame the weather. :gulp:

Lip Man 1
04-18-2010, 11:13 PM
Tragg:

Not true. Ozzie complained loudly and many times to the mainstream media in the off season the past three years about how he hated the "home run or nothing," "to many strike outs," "to many solo home runs" offense the Sox had become.

Not saying this is any better but Ozzie wasn't happy since the 2008 season with the way things were going.

Lip

manders_01
04-18-2010, 11:18 PM
My favorite part of that link is below the story where they call today's lineup changes an effort to kick start the offense.

You'll like this then: http://www.smellslikemascot.com/2010/04/lineup-lottery.html

kittle42
04-18-2010, 11:27 PM
How's this for an excuse, the sum total of the 25 man roster is well above average starting pitching and mediocre at best offense and defense, it doesn't take rocket surgery to figure that out, it's been pretty obvious since spring training started.

But Daver - 2005! Ozzieball!

Nellie_Fox
04-18-2010, 11:51 PM
Aaron Rowand and Aubrey Huff look reborn and everyone is hitting up a storm.Unfortunately, Aaron looks swollen and bruised, and will likely be undergoing surgery after being hit in the face by a Vicente Padilla fastball.

SI1020
04-19-2010, 09:17 AM
You start by benching some players until they listen to what you're telling them. Al Lopez was known to pull a player in the middle of a game.

palehozenychicty
04-19-2010, 09:23 AM
How's this for an excuse, the sum total of the 25 man roster is well above average starting pitching and mediocre at best offense and defense, it doesn't take rocket surgery to figure that out, it's been pretty obvious since spring training started.

Exactly.

Jerko
04-19-2010, 09:27 AM
I think the entire team is mentally weak, from the manager on down. All this LRLRLRLRLRLLR stuff does IMO is show that we are "scared" of other teams' players, no matter who they are. Seriously, Valbuena? LaPorta or whatever his name is? Also, the fact that the bullpen is unhittable when the game is out of reach but suspect when it's close makes me tend to think it's all in their melons. I think we'd be better off just naming a "7th inning guy" (Santos), an "8th inning guy" (Thornton) and closer, Jenks. All this 3 pitchers to face 3 batters **** has to end. I'm sick of watching this team "play not to lose", aka, play scared, which it looks like they are doing every damn game.

Frontman
04-19-2010, 09:37 AM
You start by benching some players until they listen to what you're telling them.

Not to start yet another Sox/Cubs war; but that approach didn't work with Milton Bradley nor Alphonso Soriano, did it?

Let's face it, this team has potential; and isn't living up to it period. And that's the whole freakin' lot of 'em. Kenny, Ozzie, Paul, Gordon; all of them. Since you can't fire them all; all we can do is hope they pull their collective heads out of their collective rears and start doing what they have the ability to do.

khan
04-19-2010, 10:22 AM
So, shouldn't the White Sox $54MM payroll for position players be enough to compete? Tigers don't think so: their position player payroll is more than $70MM. The Twins are spending $62MM.

This team is doing poorly because of player performance. But KW built this team on a risky foundation. Unless this pitching staff can really turn things around and excel during the balance of the year, then we are done. I personally have no expectation that we will add substantial payroll mid-season to improve the team.

This is a fairly cogent post, for the most part. I do think that the pitching has been pretty good for the most part; I don't really like ERA as a metric for a team's efficiency and effectiveness as a group of pitchers.


Having said that, this team, despite the overall dollars spent on player salaries, has a razor-thin margin for error. If ONE thing goes wrong, this team is finitu. For example:

1. If Ozzie leaves a pitcher in too long [as in Peavey the other day], the team doesn't have enough offense to get back into the game.

2. If the vaunted bullpen makes a mistake, there isn't enough offense to make up for it.

3. If/when Teahen or Ramirez make a defensive mistake [be it scored an error, or not], there isn't enough offense to make up for it.

4. If Ozzie makes a mistake in terms of the lineup or in terms of a pinch hitter, the team is destined to lose.

In sum, if there is ONE TINY MISTAKE in any part of the team [Starting pitching, bullpen, defense, baserunning, or managerial decisions], the team lacks the necessary offense to widen the margin of error. This isn't SECOND-guessing on my part. I [and many others on these boards] saw this coming months ago.

Ozzie wanted a "flexible" roster, so that he could push a lot of buttons. Unfortunately, he's human, so he's going to make mistakes. With this lineup, he simply has no room to make any. Kenny's got to step in and FIX THIS, if they want to do anything with this season. The sooner, the better.

Paulwny
04-19-2010, 11:31 AM
Al Lopez was known to pull a player in the middle of a game.


I remember Lopez benching Roy Sievers for one game and sending a rookie bullpen pitcher back to AAA. Neither one attempted to field a bunted ball down the ist base line.

Chez
04-19-2010, 11:52 AM
This is a fairly cogent post, for the most part. I do think that the pitching has been pretty good for the most part; I don't really like ERA as a metric for a team's efficiency and effectiveness as a group of pitchers.


Having said that, this team, despite the overall dollars spent on player salaries, has a razor-thin margin for error. If ONE thing goes wrong, this team is finitu. For example:

1. If Ozzie leaves a pitcher in too long [as in Peavey the other day], the team doesn't have enough offense to get back into the game.

2. If the vaunted bullpen makes a mistake, there isn't enough offense to make up for it.

3. If/when Teahen or Ramirez make a defensive mistake [be it scored an error, or not], there isn't enough offense to make up for it.

4. If Ozzie makes a mistake in terms of the lineup or in terms of a pinch hitter, the team is destined to lose.

In sum, if there is ONE TINY MISTAKE in any part of the team [Starting pitching, bullpen, defense, baserunning, or managerial decisions], the team lacks the necessary offense to widen the margin of error. This isn't SECOND-guessing on my part. I [and many others on these boards] saw this coming months ago.

Ozzie wanted a "flexible" roster, so that he could push a lot of buttons. Unfortunately, he's human, so he's going to make mistakes. With this lineup, he simply has no room to make any. Kenny's got to step in and FIX THIS, if they want to do anything with this season. The sooner, the better.

I agree with this. So far, there's been little to no margin for error with this team.

SI1020
04-19-2010, 12:00 PM
This is a fairly cogent post, for the most part. I do think that the pitching has been pretty good for the most part; I don't really like ERA as a metric for a team's efficiency and effectiveness as a group of pitchers.


Having said that, this team, despite the overall dollars spent on player salaries, has a razor-thin margin for error. If ONE thing goes wrong, this team is finitu. For example:

1. If Ozzie leaves a pitcher in too long [as in Peavey the other day], the team doesn't have enough offense to get back into the game.

2. If the vaunted bullpen makes a mistake, there isn't enough offense to make up for it.

3. If/when Teahen or Ramirez make a defensive mistake [be it scored an error, or not], there isn't enough offense to make up for it.

4. If Ozzie makes a mistake in terms of the lineup or in terms of a pinch hitter, the team is destined to lose.

In sum, if there is ONE TINY MISTAKE in any part of the team [Starting pitching, bullpen, defense, baserunning, or managerial decisions], the team lacks the necessary offense to widen the margin of error. This isn't SECOND-guessing on my part. I [and many others on these boards] saw this coming months ago.

Ozzie wanted a "flexible" roster, so that he could push a lot of buttons. Unfortunately, he's human, so he's going to make mistakes. With this lineup, he simply has no room to make any. Kenny's got to step in and FIX THIS, if they want to do anything with this season. The sooner, the better. Excellent post.

RockJock07
04-19-2010, 12:03 PM
Yes, the season is only two weeks old. However, if the hitters really are mentally weak, it's time to look in a different direction. There's no place for that in the Major Leagues. Get rid of the players who aren't confident in themselves in big situations and find some players who are. Even if it means breaking up the core, so be it. I'd rather see players step up to the plate and make outs while never losing confidence than players who are capable of coming through but always let the pressure get to their heads.

Wish Tim Tebow played baseball for the Sox....