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View Full Version : *Official* 4-16 Bad glovework at hot corner hurts Sox


Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 08:20 PM
Discuss(t)...

johnnyg83
04-16-2010, 08:21 PM
mercifully quick

guillensdisciple
04-16-2010, 08:22 PM
We're under performing and not playing to our potential. Not taking care of teams we should take care of. This team might put itself into an irreversible hole.

I just want a solid season, from start to finish. IS that too difficult? I hate losing hope this early, when nothing seems to go right. It's early, but damn are the Sox doing their best to make me think about their chances.

Craig Grebeck
04-16-2010, 08:22 PM
Hackers.

soltrain21
04-16-2010, 08:22 PM
That isn't the only thing that hurt us...

Kotsay in the lineup.
Beckham's terrible at bat.
The fact that, overall, this offense is just bad.

If we are going to be built on pitching and defense can we just get really good defenders, then?

LoveYourSuit
04-16-2010, 08:22 PM
Discuss(t)...


Can't blame Teahen.

At .240 BA, he is the 2nd best hitter on this team.


I want to puke watching this team.

soxlady8
04-16-2010, 08:23 PM
disgust , not discuss (ha ha ha )===

I am not so impressed with Teahen at the hot corner so far...
hope he doesn't continue to make funky plays all year ---


Hitting woes tonight again ... ugh...
at least Jenks looked pretty good ---

JB98
04-16-2010, 08:26 PM
:anon:

Nothing to say about this team that I haven't already said before.

RTI_SoxFan
04-16-2010, 08:26 PM
This is the most inconsistent, under-achieving, fundamentally unsound team I have seen in a while. It's a different team out there every day... it's mind boggling!

My brother-in-law calls them schizophrenic. I would agree.

Boo!:angry:

guillensdisciple
04-16-2010, 08:29 PM
:anon:

Nothing to say about this team that I haven't already said before.

This is the most inconsistent, under-achieving, fundamentally unsound team I have seen in a while. It's a different team out there every day... it's mind boggling!

My brother-in-law calls them schizophrenic. I would agree.

Boo!:angry:



So sad that we already have this this early in the season. Honestly though, it feels like last year in the later months. Like nothing has changed. This might be the end of the Ozzie and Kenny Williams era. You can't hit lightning in a bottle with every signing I guess.

RTI_SoxFan
04-16-2010, 08:30 PM
So sad that we already have this this early in the season. Honestly though, it feels like last year in the later months. Like nothing has changed. This might be the end of the Ozzie and Kenny Williams era. You can't hit lightning in a bottle with every signing I guess.

It's not just that it's this early in the season. It's been going on for 2 years now. Same ****, new day! They are extremely frustrating to watch!

Tragg
04-16-2010, 08:30 PM
We have 2 on, nobody out, TOP OF THE ORDER UP, and what does Guillen do? Bunt!!!!
Whoppeee
In return for increasing the chance of scoring ONE run (which we didn't score), Ozzies orders an intentional out and minimize the chance for a big inning.
And of course, in the lineage of Wise on a ML roster, not to mention at leadoff; Mack, Owens and Erstad in Center, Oz insists that Kotsay is a DH.
The braintrust isn't helping.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 08:30 PM
Can't blame Teahen.

At .240 BA, he is the 2nd best hitter on this team.


I want to puke watching this team.

Yes, Teahen can be blamed. Buehrle was pitching quite well, but his error led to three unearned runs.

A four-run deficit is a different animal than a one-run deficit.

RTI_SoxFan
04-16-2010, 08:32 PM
We have 2 on, nobody out, TOP OF THE ORDER UP, and what does Guillen do? Bunt!!!!
Whoppeee
In return for increasing the chance of scoring ONE run, we minimize the chance for a big inning.
And of course, in the lineage of Wise at leadoff, Mack in Center, Oz inists that Kotsay is a DH.
The braintrust isn't helping.

I don't mind the bunt with Pierre there... get 2 guys in scoring position with one out. A hit scores two. There's a problem, we can't get that big hit. Ok, I'm done. Hawks back on!

SCCWS
04-16-2010, 08:33 PM
When the best hitter in the lineup was hitting .256 this early in the year, they are in trouble. They are last now in the division. The WS are the worst hitting team in baseball-average wise, and by a good margin.
This team has been a poor offensive team for too long. It is amazing that guys come over from other teams and they under-perform based on their career numbers.
The common factor is Walker. This team needs a jolt and changing batting coaches may be a quick fix before they fall too far behind. Obviously you can only change him if you can find a viable replacement.

LoveYourSuit
04-16-2010, 08:33 PM
:anon:

Nothing to say about this team that I haven't already said before.


The best thing that can happen if this season goes down the trash is that JR loses grip on his loyalty and cleans house with management and coaches.


We need new faces. There has been a good amount of Roster turnover since 2005 but the same garbage and philosophy comes out of this dugout.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 08:33 PM
At least with Joe Crede's .240 batting average you got great defense. (Same thing with Uribe when he played third.) On the other side of town, Aramis Ramirez has a lousy glove but a stout bat.

Teahen's bat doesn't make up for his glove, and his glove doesn't make up for his bat.

Dick Allen
04-16-2010, 08:35 PM
"Ozzie's team" is on the verge of losing a 2nd series to the friggin Indians. If this crap continues, they need to launch his ass by the ASB.

guillensdisciple
04-16-2010, 08:38 PM
I expect a miracle, but it looks like Rios is the same dope he was last year. The guy is Javier Vazquez in hitters form. A bum, who does not care for anyone but himself. It's a shame really, because he is full of potential, but he doesn't care enough to make the potential work.

Bullpen is ridiculous, but none of it matters. Pitching has also been doing poorly. Consider that we were supposed to be Gods and our pitching has allowed 7, 4, 1, 7, and 6 runs in a 5 game span. Not good. I really hope Ozzie has not lost his touch.

I hold hope, because it is still early, but this lack of change gives me nothing ot go off of. I am sick of being a hopeless fan, I need proof that my hopes and faith will be backed up with actual play.

:whiner:

TDog
04-16-2010, 08:38 PM
This is the most inconsistent, under-achieving, fundamentally unsound team I have seen in a while. It's a different team out there every day... it's mind boggling!

My brother-in-law calls them schizophrenic. I would agree.

Boo!:angry:



If this were the most fundamentally unsound team of recent White Sox history, hitters wouldn't be getting the bunt down when called on to sacrifice. And, really, they have been pretty good at sacrificing.

soltrain21
04-16-2010, 08:40 PM
"Ozzie's team" is on the verge of losing a 2nd series to the friggin Indians. If this crap continues, they need to launch his ass by the ASB.

Don't you get it?! They are losing this early to take pressure off of the team. Everything Ozzie does takes pressure off of the team. He has a reason for everything.

guillensdisciple
04-16-2010, 08:40 PM
If this were the most fundamentally unsound team of recent White Sox history, hitters wouldn't be getting the bunt down when called on to sacrifice. And, really, they have been pretty good at sacrificing.


Who gives a **** if the sacrifices are not coming in to score?

PeoriaSoxFan
04-16-2010, 08:42 PM
"Ozzie's team" is on the verge of losing a 2nd series to the friggin Indians. If this crap continues, they need to launch his ass by the ASB.

Whatever, like this is all Ozzie's fault. I am sure he was just screaming for Kotsay, Teahen, Jones, et al to be on this roster. He wanted a more versatile team with more speed. Did KW really give him that? The only roster move you can verify on Ozzie is that he didn't want Thome back. This team's offense has now sucked for 3+ years. KW apparently doesn't believe in obtaining players with high OBPs. Strike-out or hit a HR.

I like Kenny and Ozzie and want both to stay. I tend to blame KW right now though. How in the hell could he put out such an anemic offensive roster to go with an oustanding pitching roster? If you are going to have this type of pitching, why waste it? Did he think Jordan Danks, Viciedo, and Flowers would be on the way faster?

Heap a little blame though on the players. They are the ones who are once again playing corpse ball. Also, remember, they have played only 11 games.

All you Ozzie haters, maybe you would like to have the likes of Jerry Manual or Terry Bevington back.

Craig Grebeck
04-16-2010, 08:44 PM
1. I'd be shocked if "tinkerer" Jerry Manuel changed lineups like Ozzie.
2. Perhaps, since we're not scoring sacrifices, we need as many outs as possible i.e. DO NOT SACRIFICE YOU IDIOT, OG.

SI1020
04-16-2010, 08:45 PM
All you Ozzie haters, maybe you would like to have the likes of Jerry Manual or Terry Bevington back. Why can't one have a critical opinion about anything or anyone without being called a hater? The word has lost all meaning.

Tragg
04-16-2010, 08:47 PM
Whatever, like this is all Ozzie's fault. I am sure he was just screaming for Kotsay, Teahen, Jones, et al to be on this roster. He wanted a more versatile team with more speed. Did KW really give him that? The only roster move you can verify on Ozzie is that he didn't want Thome back. This team's offense has now sucked for 3+ years. KW apparently doesn't believe in obtaining players with high OBPs. Strike-out or hit a HR. .
Kenny deserves some responsibility for this because he has ceded the talent evaulation to a large extent to Guillen and Guillen is flat out bad at it on the offensive side. He can see the obvious and that's about it.
In '07, Kenny was talking OPB, Oz was mocking it (saying if it were important, Thome would lead off) and Kenny paid a high price for OBP Swisher and that was a mess, such that he basically gave him to the Yankees. Sinice then, back to ozzie-ball.

Kotsay at DH-my goodness.

soltrain21
04-16-2010, 08:47 PM
Whatever, like this is all Ozzie's fault. I am sure he was just screaming for Kotsay, Teahen, Jones, et al to be on this roster. He wanted a more versatile team with more speed. Did KW really give him that? The only roster move you can verify on Ozzie is that he didn't want Thome back. This team's offense has now sucked for 3+ years. KW apparently doesn't believe in obtaining players with high OBPs. Strike-out or hit a HR.

I like Kenny and Ozzie and want both to stay. I tend to blame KW right now though. How in the hell could he put out such an anemic offensive roster to go with an oustanding pitching roster? If you are going to have this type of pitching, why waste it? Did he think Jordan Danks, Viciedo, and Flowers would be on the way faster?

Heap a little blame though on the players. They are the ones who are once again playing corpse ball. Also, remember, they have played only 11 games.

All you Ozzie haters, maybe you would like to have the likes of Jerry Manual or Terry Bevington back.

KW has flat out said he wasn't comfortable with this offense going into the season in an interview on CSN. He wanted to give Ozzie what we wanted, but will not hesitate to pull the trigger if it isn't working out.

Tragg
04-16-2010, 08:49 PM
I don't mind the bunt with Pierre there... get 2 guys in scoring position with one out. A hit scores two. There's a problem, we can't get that big hit. Ok, I'm done. Hawks back on!
Without the bunt, a hit scores one.
This team isn't that good at run prevention to throw away outs.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 08:54 PM
This team sucks. Ozzie wanted this roster created in an image of himself and he got what he wanted. Crappy left handed hackers that don't walk, need to bunt to be productive, don't care if they get caught stealing and rely on bloop hits to keep their average above .250. Hooray.

TDog
04-16-2010, 08:55 PM
Who gives a **** if the sacrifices are not coming in to score?

I was addressing the issue of fundamentals, which was the complaint in the post I was responding to. Fundamentals have improved over previous seasons.

For that matter, having Kotsay in the lineup today was no more a problem than having Beckham in the lineup. In fact, if Kotsay had been batting second and Beckham fifth, the Sox would have tied the game at 3. If the game is tied, maybe the second Indian three-run rally doesn't happen.

I don't agree with everything Guillen does. I don't like Beckham batting second even when he isn't being called upon to bunt because he doesn't seem to do the things a No. 2 hitter is supposed to do. And I wouldn't have sacrificed the runner to third on the road down by a run, especially with Beckham due up next because he hasn't been successful in getting that run home. In fact, I wouldn't sacrifice most of the times Guillen sacrifices.

Saturday Guillen will probably make the mistake of starting Peavy who will give up too many runs for the Sox to win

But I can't blame Guillen or the coaches for the Sox not winning tonight.

Noneck
04-16-2010, 08:58 PM
He wanted to give Ozzie what we wanted, but will not hesitate to pull the trigger if it isn't working out.

Pull the trigger in what way? Fire Ozwaldo?

I cant see him doing much else. No way of changing the make up of the club until at least July. That probably will be too late if this team doesn't start to get going soon.

soltrain21
04-16-2010, 09:01 PM
Pull the trigger in what way? Fire Ozwaldo?

I cant see him doing much else. No way of changing the make up of the club until at least July. That probably will be too late if this team doesn't start to get going soon.

He said he felt they needed another bat or two. I don't know what he would do.

Noneck
04-16-2010, 09:02 PM
He said he felt they needed another bat or two. I don't know what he would do.

I dont know what he can do at this point either.

Danielgosox38
04-16-2010, 09:02 PM
Our offense sucks. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Thanks for the wonderful offense you wanted Ozzie.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 09:03 PM
All you Ozzie haters, maybe you would like to have the likes of Jerry Manual or Terry Bevington back.

This is absurd. There are levels of gray that you and many others just don't seem to comprehend.

In late 2003 the informed among us thought Ozzie would be an excellent "clubhouse" manager. But the informed among us had concerns about his ability to evaluate talent, handle a pitching staff, and make in-game strategic decisions, because he had never previously been tasked with those responsibilities.

In this, his seventh season of managing, Ozzie hasn't shown any reason for the informed among us to change our evaluation of him. He's still a great clubhouse manager, a poor talent evaluator (especially of outfielders and hitters overall) and a poor in-game strategist. He also does not show much inclination to teach his players, unlike Ron Gardenhire, for instance. And while he handles his starters well, he's utterly predictable with his bullpen management.

At best, Ozzie is an average MLB manager.

tsoxman
04-16-2010, 09:05 PM
This team sucks. Ozzie wanted this roster created in an image of himself and he got what he wanted. Crappy left handed hackers that don't walk, need to bunt to be productive, don't care if they get caught stealing and rely on bloop hits to keep their average above .250. Hooray.
It's on the GM...My 11 year old wants to drive the car...do I allow him to? No. It's the GM's fault.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 09:07 PM
I would also like to add that the sacrifice bunt has always been a garbage call. First, we blamed guys because they couldn't bunt. Now, we blame guys when they don't drive the runner in. I have an idea - scrap the god damn sacrifice bunt and let the hitter hit! If he doesn't fine, but at least you aren't giving away an out and an opportunity for a big inning. Geez.

When you sac bunt you HAVE to include the possibility that A) the guy won't get it down and B) the next guy won't hit a fly ball. Therefore, don't give away the out unless you absolutely have to!

Brian26
04-16-2010, 09:08 PM
This is the most inconsistent, under-achieving, fundamentally unsound team I have seen in a while.


I believe this description has been used recently to describe the 2007, 2008 and 2009 White Sox.

Brian26
04-16-2010, 09:09 PM
This might be the end of the Ozzie and Kenny Williams era.

Silly comment. Kenny, especially, is not going anywhere.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 09:09 PM
It's on the GM...My 11 year old wants to drive the car...do I allow him to? No. It's the GM's fault.

You're right. KW seems to have the same fetish: Mackowiak, Erstad, Wise etc.

A. Cavatica
04-16-2010, 09:11 PM
The braintrust isn't helping.

I stopped trusting Ozzie's brain a while ago.

tsoxman
04-16-2010, 09:12 PM
Silly comment. Kenny, especially, is not going anywhere.
Jerry Krause won six championships and was fired.

Kenny will get his day of reckoning soon enough. He is not a good GM.

canOcorn
04-16-2010, 09:13 PM
We have 2 on, nobody out, TOP OF THE ORDER UP, and what does Guillen do? Bunt!!!!
Whoppeee
In return for increasing the chance of scoring ONE run (which we didn't score), Ozzies orders an intentional out and minimize the chance for a big inning.
And of course, in the lineage of Wise on a ML roster, not to mention at leadoff; Mack, Owens and Erstad in Center, Oz insists that Kotsay is a DH.
The braintrust isn't helping.

Yep. More buffoonery by the Oz and his sac bunt bull****. I'm sure someone will tell us it was the right move because outside a vacuum the pitcher might throw the sac bunt into right field and it increases our chances of scoring. Nevermind that any of the variables that they describe increases/decreases odds of scoring apply in this instance or the last time Ozzie ****ed up.

sox1970
04-16-2010, 09:14 PM
I don't think Kenny will get fired, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he didn't want to be a GM after this season.

Danielgosox38
04-16-2010, 09:14 PM
Hey guys, Mark Kotsay is our DH. Mark Kotsay......... Lol. Jones is swinging a hot bat and Ozzie benches him. Smh....

canOcorn
04-16-2010, 09:16 PM
When you sac bunt you HAVE to include the possibility that A) the guy won't get it down and B) the next guy won't hit a fly ball. Therefore, don't give away the out unless you absolutely have to!

Or when you do it with your #2 hitter, they'll walk your best hitter with 1B open. Do you really think the Cardinals are going to sac bunt in front of Pujols? Ozzie would.......

Brian26
04-16-2010, 09:16 PM
I would also like to add that the sacrifice bunt has always been a garbage call. First, we blamed guys because they couldn't bunt. Now, we blame guys when they don't drive the runner in. I have an idea - scrap the god damn sacrifice bunt and let the hitter hit! If he doesn't fine, but at least you aren't giving away an out and an opportunity for a big inning. Geez.

Nice dramatic over-reaction. There are definitely times when a sac bunt is an excellent call. It has not always been a garbage call.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 09:16 PM
At best, Ozzie is an average MLB manager.

I think these current MLB managers are better than Ozzie (in no particular order):

Mike Scioscia
Joe Torre
Terry Francona
Ron Gardenhire
Charlie Manuel
Jim Leyland
Joe Girardi
Joe Maddon
Tony LaRussa
Fredi Gonzalez
Cito Gaston
Jim Tracy

I also think Clint Hurdle and Tom Kelly, neither of whom is currently managing, are better managers than Ozzie. I would also put a motivated Lou Piniella on that list, but didn't because he's become old and complacent with the Cubs.

Danielgosox38
04-16-2010, 09:17 PM
Kenny wanted to improve this team, and Ozzie wanted to go with his own ignorant idea. I don't put this on Kenny at all... Ozzie is to blame. Ozzie's time is running out, if this team continues to suck.

PhillipsBubba
04-16-2010, 09:17 PM
http://www.thelosscolumn.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/ozzie-guillen-choke.jpg

Nelfox02
04-16-2010, 09:17 PM
Do you think the KW is actually surprised at the way this team is performing?

other than Jake's two rough starts has anything gone on so far this season that is surprising? other than Jones starting off much better than anticipated (so we play Kotsay)

how could KW not anticipate this? 9 out of 10 people on this board alone have said since the off season this team would play like this......I just cant believe KW didnt see it coming as well

Danielgosox38
04-16-2010, 09:18 PM
I think these current MLB managers are better than Ozzie (in no particular order):

Mike Scioscia
Joe Torre
Terry Francona
Ron Gardenhire
Charlie Manuel
Jim Leyland
Joe Girardi
Joe Maddon
Tony LaRussa
Fredi Gonzalez
Cito Gaston
Jim Tracy

I also think Clint Hurdle and Tom Kelly, neither of whom is currently managing, are better managers than Ozzie. I would also put a motivated Lou Piniella on that list, but didn't because he's become old and complacent with the Cubs.

I agree with everyone you put on that list.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 09:19 PM
You're right. KW seems to have the same fetish: Mackowiak, Erstad, Wise etc.

KW did not bring in those guys to be starters. He brought them in to be bench players.

You can fault KW for placing too much trust in Brian Anderson and too much trust in Ozzie, but KW didn't put bench players like Mack, Erstad and Wise into the lineup and/or play them out of position.

Lip Man 1
04-16-2010, 09:20 PM
Putrid performance.

At least they are consistent, particularly against a pitcher they never saw before.

Lip

Brian26
04-16-2010, 09:22 PM
It's on the GM...My 11 year old wants to drive the car...do I allow him to? No. It's the GM's fault.

I disagree. This metaphor doesn't really work in describing what should be a cooperative and perhaps synergistic relationship between a GM and his field manager.

Danielgosox38
04-16-2010, 09:22 PM
putrid performance.

At least they are consistent, particularly against a pitcher they never saw before.

Lip

potw.

cws05champ
04-16-2010, 09:26 PM
Appalling game....Mitch ****ing Talbot. Really?? Our SP has not been as good as advertised yet. I hope to God that Peavy will turn it around and our hitters will start to heat up as the weather does.

TDog
04-16-2010, 09:28 PM
Or when you do it with your #2 hitter, they'll walk your best hitter with 1B open. Do you really think the Cardinals are going to sac bunt in front of Pujols? Ozzie would.......

You don't know that Guillen would bunt in front of Pujols to get the runner to second base. He did bunt over the potential game-winning runner in front of Quentin if Konerko is following him. You would pass up two on and one out for Konerko with a chance to win the game?

I had no problem with Beckham doing his job by bunting the runner over against Cleveland last week. I have a big problem with Beckham not doing his job by getting the runner in from third with one out to tie the game tonight. Judging from tonight's results, and previous similar failures this year, it isn't as if he could have been counted on to do better than sacrifice last week.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 09:28 PM
Nice dramatic over-reaction. There are definitely times when a sac bunt is an excellent call. It has not always been a garbage call.

Not an over-reaction at all. I agree that there are times when it is an excellent call. However Ozzie has not chosen those times. None of the sac bunts so far this year have come in one of those times. On the other hand, with AJ on first in game 2 in the 7th inning with Teahen at the plate against a lefty would have been one of those times yet no sac bunt.

Tragg
04-16-2010, 09:29 PM
Kenny wanted to improve this team, and Ozzie wanted to go with his own ignorant idea. I don't put this on Kenny at all... Ozzie is to blame. Ozzie's time is running out, if this team continues to suck.
Well, I agree this is Ozzie's team, but Kenny let him do it. He's been on this bizaree small-ball sojourn since 2007, and except for being saved by injury in 2008, it has been woefully ineffective.
And I doubt that Ozzie's time is anywhere close to running out.

Brian26
04-16-2010, 09:30 PM
Jerry Krause won six championships and was fired.

Kenny will get his day of reckoning soon enough. He is not a good GM.

Apples and oranges, for a number of reasons.

Assembling a championship baseball team (25-40 players plus the coaching staff) is much more challenging that having Michael Jordan handed to you on a silver platter and trying to figure out if Cliff Levingston or Ed Nealy is going to be your 12th man.

Notwithstanding that, baseball is JR's favorite sport, and KW ended an 88 year drought. That tops anything Krause ever did.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 09:30 PM
Not an over-reaction at all. I agree that there are times when it is an excellent call. However Ozzie has not chosen those times. None of the sac bunts so far this year have come in one of those times. On the other hand, with AJ on first in game 2 in the 7th inning with Teahen at the plate against a lefty would have been one of those times yet no sac bunt.

I completely agree with this. Great post.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 09:32 PM
You don't know that Guillen would bunt in front of Pujols to get the runner to second base. He did bunt over the potential game-winning runner in front of Quentin if Konerko is following him. You would pass up two on and one out for Konerko with a chance to win the game?


I would rather have Beckham hitting with one on and no outs with Quentin on deck rather than first and second with one out and Konerko up. The fact that there were "two on" means nothing since only the lead runner matters and Konerko is a great DP candidate. When you bunt in that situation you take the bat out of both Beckham and Quentin's hands.

canOcorn
04-16-2010, 09:35 PM
You don't know that Guillen would bunt in front of Pujols to get the runner to second base. He did bunt over the potential game-winning runner in front of Quentin if Konerko is following him. You would pass up two on and one out for Konerko with a chance to win the game?



Based on previous experience, Oz would bunt in front of Pujols. Yes, I would pass on having GIDPK up with one out and 1st and 2nd vs. Beckham up, Pierre on 1B and nobody out. In a heartbeat!

Brian26
04-16-2010, 09:36 PM
Not an over-reaction at all. I agree that there are times when it is an excellent call. However Ozzie has not chosen those times. None of the sac bunts so far this year have come in one of those times. On the other hand, with AJ on first in game 2 in the 7th inning with Teahen at the plate against a lefty would have been one of those times yet no sac bunt.

See the post previous to yours, as TDog referenced a game last week when Beckham sac bunted Pierre to 2nd with no outs in the Sox last at-bat at home in a tie game. That's a perfect time to sac bunt.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 09:36 PM
KW did not bring in those guys to be starters. He brought them in to be bench players.

You can fault KW for placing too much trust in Brian Anderson and too much trust in Ozzie, but KW didn't put bench players like Mack, Erstad and Wise into the lineup and/or play them out of position.

That's true. I wonder if KW is as frustrated with Ozzie's use of Kotsay as some/most of us are.

KW is, however, completely to blame for Teahen.

tdwiek
04-16-2010, 09:39 PM
When the best hitter in the lineup was hitting .256 this early in the year, they are in trouble. They are last now in the division. The WS are the worst hitting team in baseball-average wise, and by a good margin.
This team has been a poor offensive team for too long. It is amazing that guys come over from other teams and they under-perform based on their career numbers.
The common factor is Walker. This team needs a jolt and changing batting coaches may be a quick fix before they fall too far behind. Obviously you can only change him if you can find a viable replacement.

Viable replacement? My 70-year old aunt might be a better option than Greg Walker at this point.

JermaineDye05
04-16-2010, 09:41 PM
I'm just curious, what do teams normally rely on when they've never faced a pitcher before?

Is it usually the hitting coach who gives the hitters a plan of attack or is it mostly just scouting reports that the team goes off of?

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 09:44 PM
KW is, however, completely to blame for Teahen.

Yes, I agree with that. And he was completely to blame for both Swisher deals, the Todd Ritchie deal and a few other stinkers.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 09:45 PM
See the post previous to yours, as TDog referenced a game last week when Beckham sac bunted Pierre to 2nd with no outs in the Sox last at-bat at home in a tie game. That's a perfect time to sac bunt.

I disagree. You are giving up the chance that Beckham could do something productive. In addition, having Pierre on second as oppposed to first is only marginally better for Quentin to drive him in. Out of Quentin's 236 hits as a member of the Chisox only 133 have been singles.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 09:50 PM
Yes, I agree with that. And he was completely to blame for both Swisher deals, the Todd Ritchie deal and a few other stinkers.

It's too bad he compounded the mistake for dealing Swisher for pennies on the dollar. He would have been preferable to the mess we have now. Kotsay couldn't approach 25+ HRs and .370 OBP in his wettest of dreams.

Slappy
04-16-2010, 09:54 PM
Pathetic display of hitting again tonight.

TDog
04-16-2010, 09:55 PM
I would rather have Beckham hitting with one on and no outs with Quentin on deck rather than first and second with one out and Konerko up. The fact that there were "two on" means nothing since only the lead runner matters and Konerko is a great DP candidate. When you bunt in that situation you take the bat out of both Beckham and Quentin's hands.

Quentin leads the team in doubleplays this year. And Beckham hasn't been the hitter you believe he is. (I hope he is some day, but if he were, the Sox would have scored more than two runs tonight.) Taking the bat out of his hands to guarantee the winning run in scoring position in front of Quentin and Konerko is a no-brainer that any major league manager would have done.

Brian26
04-16-2010, 09:55 PM
I disagree. You are giving up the chance that Beckham could do something productive. In addition, having Pierre on second as oppposed to first is only marginally better for Quentin to drive him in. Out of Quentin's 236 hits as a member of the Chisox only 133 have been singles.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Baseball logic has always dictated that it is easier to score a runner from second base with two tries than scoring a runner from first base with three tries. I'm only applying this to the scenario where the home team is batting last in a tie game.

With the bunt, you absolutely know that you're going to give Konerko (and the #5 hitter, if necessary) a chance to win the game with a single. Without the bunt, you don't know what's going to happen.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 09:58 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Baseball logic has always dictated that it is easier to score a runner from second base with two tries than scoring a runner from first base with three tries. I'm only applying this to the scenario where the home team is batting last in a tie game.

With the bunt, you absolutely know that you're going to give Konerko (and the #5 hitter, if necessary) a chance to win the game with a single. Without the bunt, you don't know what's going to happen.

And I was OK with the bunt call in the tie game at home in the ninth inning (or extras).

In the 7th inning of a tie game, it's a bad call.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 09:59 PM
Quentin leads the team in doubleplays this year. And Beckham hasn't been the hitter you believe he is. (I hope he is some day, but if he were, the Sox would have scored more than two runs tonight.) Taking the bat out of his hands to guarantee the winning run in scoring position in front of Quentin and Konerko is a no-brainer that any major league manager would have done.

If you're concerned about double plays, why would you give the opposing manager the chance to pitch around Quentin to set one up for Konerko?

Tragg
04-16-2010, 09:59 PM
That's true. I wonder if KW is as frustrated with Ozzie's use of Kotsay as some/most of us are.

KW is, however, completely to blame for Teahen.
Teahen is the kind of hitter Guillen would like.
Williams certainly bears some responsibility for Kotsay...he signed him after last year. I remember a quote from Guillen that Guillen's number 1 offseason priority was to make sure that Kotsay was signed. That was a pretty good indication that Guillen had more in mind for Kotsay than sunday lineup duty.
Not wanting a DH who couldn't play the field-Ozzie, approved by Williams.
Hard to separate the two.

WhiteSox5187
04-16-2010, 10:05 PM
Hold on, we're upset that we bunted with runners on first and second, nobody out? To score two runs in that situation you need an extra base hit. To score ONE run you need a base hit, and you can just as easily have a double play (especially with this team). With the sac bunt you can score two runs with a basehit and can't hit into a double play. I have no problem with that call.

Having said that, this team can't bring a runner in from third with less than two out. If this team hit better in those situations, I would like bunting, but this team just can't seem to hit in ANY situation. Putting Kotsay in at DH is baffling and Pierre just doesn't inspire a lot of confidence with me.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 10:07 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Baseball logic has always dictated that it is easier to score a runner from second base with two tries than scoring a runner from first base with three tries. I'm only applying this to the scenario where the home team is batting last in a tie game.

With the bunt, you absolutely know that you're going to give Konerko (and the #5 hitter, if necessary) a chance to win the game with a single. Without the bunt, you don't know what's going to happen.


Agree to disagree but consider this: per 162 games Konerko hits 100 singles and 61 extra base hits. So are you increasing his chances of driving in the runner so much that you're willing to forego Beckham doing something productive in the process?

ChiSoxGirl
04-16-2010, 10:08 PM
:anon:

Nothing to say about this team that I haven't already said before.

Is that a bag or a Bud Light box? :tongue:

russ99
04-16-2010, 10:09 PM
Without the bunt, a hit scores one.
This team isn't that good at run prevention to throw away outs.

I know some of us want everyone swinging for the fences, but with nobody out and the chance to score 2 or more on the road, that's the right call.

Again, the bunt isn't the issue (though I really want to see Pierre drag bunting down the 1B line, since he'll be safe much more often) it's that our "good" hitters didn't execute when they're supposed to.

I swear this fanbase is bipolar. We win, everyone's good, we lose, everyone's a bum and Ozzie and/or Kenny should be fired...

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 10:09 PM
Hold on, we're upset that we bunted with runners on first and second, nobody out? To score two runs in that situation you need an extra base hit. To score ONE run you need a base hit, and you can just as easily have a double play (especially with this team). With the sac bunt you can score two runs with a basehit and can't hit into a double play. I have no problem with that call.

Having said that, this team can't bring a runner in from third with less than two out. If this team hit better in those situations, I would like bunting, but this team just can't seem to hit in ANY situation. Putting Kotsay in at DH is baffling and Pierre just doesn't inspire a lot of confidence with me.

are you going to go through a season bunting every time there's a double play situation?

canOcorn
04-16-2010, 10:10 PM
It's too bad he compounded the mistake for dealing Swisher for pennies on the dollar. He would have been preferable to the mess we have now. Kotsay couldn't approach 25+ HRs and .370 OBP in his wettest of dreams.

He didn't bow down and worship at the feet of Ozzie, so he's gone. We'd rather have Jeff ****ing Marquez in Charlotte and Wise, D. as our leadoff hitter (last year) Or is this case, the replacement player, better known as Kotsay, in the 5 spot as a DH. :(:

soxinem1
04-16-2010, 10:11 PM
For once I will defend Teahen.

It is not his fault that KW is making him into more than he is, which is a utility man.

It is also not Teahen's fault that he was supposed to be the 'defensive upgrade' at 3B.

And it is not Teahen's fault that Ozzie thinks for some reason that this team is improved defensively in the INF.

If we were going to go cheap we could have taken a gamble on Crede and/or Melvin Mora for less and probably got more in return.

I'd rather have Ty Wigginton at 3B than this guy.

Problem is, we are stuck with him for awhile.

Brian26
04-16-2010, 10:14 PM
Not an over-reaction at all. I agree that there are times when it is an excellent call. However Ozzie has not chosen those times. None of the sac bunts so far this year have come in one of those times. On the other hand, with AJ on first in game 2 in the 7th inning with Teahen at the plate against a lefty would have been one of those times yet no sac bunt.

I completely agree with this. Great post.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Baseball logic has always dictated that it is easier to score a runner from second base with two tries than scoring a runner from first base with three tries. I'm only applying this to the scenario where the home team is batting last in a tie game.

With the bunt, you absolutely know that you're going to give Konerko (and the #5 hitter, if necessary) a chance to win the game with a single. Without the bunt, you don't know what's going to happen.

And I was OK with the bunt call in the tie game at home in the ninth inning (or extras).

In the 7th inning of a tie game, it's a bad call.

Make up your mind, Frater. You're contradicting yourself all over the place.

russ99
04-16-2010, 10:16 PM
He didn't bow down and worship at the feet of Ozzie, so he's gone. We'd rather have Jeff ****ing Marquez in Charlotte and Wise, D. as our leadoff hitter (last year) Or is this case, the replacement player, better known as Kotsay, in the 5 spot as a DH. :(:

You want Swisher, his me-first mentality and crappy morose attitude and his lousy average back just for a few homers?

Really?? :rolleyes:

These guys are capable hitters. They showed this in Toronto. Now they need to show that consistently.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 10:19 PM
Make up your mind, Frater. You're contradicting yourself all over the place.

I never had a problem with the Beckham bunt in the 9th inning. I didn't like it in the 7th. Because Ozzie seemingly didn't understand the difference is just another piece of evidence within his entire body of work that suggests to me that he is not a very good in-game strategist. What's contradictory about that?

Brian26
04-16-2010, 10:20 PM
He didn't bow down and worship at the feet of Ozzie, so he's gone. We'd rather have Jeff ****ing Marquez in Charlotte and Wise, D. as our leadoff hitter (last year) Or is this case, the replacement player, better known as Kotsay, in the 5 spot as a DH. :(:

Swisher was a piece of garbage both in the clubhouse and on the field to end the 2008 season.

Swisher batted:
.193 in July 2008
.224 In August 2008
.164 in September 2008

In April 2008, he batted .211, and in May he batted .176.

He had one good month for the entire 2008 season. He was so bad at the end of the season that DeWayne Wise started leftfield in the playoffs.

On top of that, Swisher was due another $22 million through the 2011 season.

We're lucky we got Marquez for him. Kenny sold low, but at some point you have to cut your losses to save money.

Frater Perdurabo
04-16-2010, 10:20 PM
You want Swisher, his me-first mentality and crappy morose attitude and his lousy average back just for a few homers?

I didn't care for deal for Swisher in the first place.

Slappy
04-16-2010, 10:21 PM
Let's put this Mark Kotsay business behind us. Just make Andruw the everyday DH already. Then, when he's proven himself a second time, put him in the field everyday.

By that time we'll be 15-25.

Brian26
04-16-2010, 10:22 PM
I never had a problem with the Beckham bunt in the 9th inning. I didn't like it in the 7th. Because Ozzie seemingly didn't understand the difference is just another piece of evidence within his entire body of work that suggests to me that he is not a very good in-game strategist. What's contradictory about that?

You said you completely agree with the post by Bacon which says that Ozzie has not chosen the correct time to call for a sacrifice bunt yet this season. I just gave you an example of a sac bunt by Ozzie that was a good call, which you now agree with.

What am I missing? :scratch:

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 10:24 PM
You want Swisher, his me-first mentality and crappy morose attitude and his lousy average back just for a few homers?

Really?? :rolleyes:

These guys are capable hitters. They showed this in Toronto. Now they need to show that consistently.

I'm not the biggest Swisher fan but:

few homers? he averages 28 per 162 games, even Konerko only has 31

Also, check this out - we don't have ONE player that can match his career .358 OBP. Not even Quentin.

soxinem1
04-16-2010, 10:24 PM
These guys are capable hitters. They showed this in Toronto. Now they need to show that consistently.

They did it against a converted reliever who will be back in the bullpen or AAA in a month.

Losing to a guy with twice as many walks as K's and an ERA over 9.00 coming into this game, stranding runners, and making stupid defensive gaffes is just getting ridiculous.

It seems that ever since Joe Mays and Brian Anderson (the LHP, not our former OF) first pitched against us that all these slop pitchers look like Cy Young and Warren Spahn facing the White Sox.

TDog
04-16-2010, 10:28 PM
If you're concerned about double plays, why would you give the opposing manager the chance to pitch around Quentin to set one up for Konerko?

I was responding to the concern over the doubleplay. But if Beckham goes down without advancing the winning run into scoring position (and without hitting into the doubleplay), you have Quentin up as a doubleplay candidate without a runner in scoring position.

The reason you sacrifice there is simple, fundamental baseball. Your worst-case scenario is Konerko up with the winning run on second base. It was a no-brainer to bunt there. That is why Jeff Cox taught Beckham to bunt when he came up with the White Sox, so he could bunt the winning run in scoring position when the situation arose. And if you have a great bullpen, you will bunting over the runner in the seventh and eighth as well if it will bring up RBI guys with the runner in scoring position.

You don't need hitting to win games is you concentrate your resources on pitching. The Giants have Aaron Rowand leading off, Juan Uribe hitting in front to the pitcher and their best hitter leading the world in grounding into doubleplays -- and neither the Panda or Uribe are the slowest hitters in the lineup. The Giants are not winning tonight, due to their fifth-starter issues, but they came into the night winning seven of their first nine.

Your batting average is irrelevant if all you need to score the tying or go-ahead run is a runner on third with less than two outs.

soxinem1
04-16-2010, 10:30 PM
I'm not the biggest Swisher fan but:

few homers? he averages 28 per 162 games, even Konerko only has 31

Also, check this out - we don't have ONE player that can match his career .358 OBP. Not even Quentin.

We can only go by what he did here, and that was about one decent month. The rest of the time he hit under .200, stranded tons of runners, and put himself into the position of being benched for a career AAA player in the playoffs.

What could Swisher add to this lineup now other than being another easy out?

WhiteSox5187
04-16-2010, 10:30 PM
are you going to go through a season bunting every time there's a double play situation?

No but when I don't think this team can string together two hits, I will.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 10:33 PM
I was responding to the concern over the doubleplay. But if Beckham goes down without advancing the winning run into scoring position (and without hitting into the doubleplay), you have Quentin up as a doubleplay candidate without a runner in scoring position.

The reason you sacrifice there is simple, fundamental baseball. Your worst-case scenario is Konerko up with the winning run on second base. It was a no-brainer to bunt there. That is why Jeff Cox taught Beckham to bunt when he came up with the White Sox, so he could bunt the winning run in scoring position when the situation arose. And if you have a great bullpen, you will bunting over the runner in the seventh and eighth as well if it will bring up RBI guys with the runner in scoring position.

You don't need hitting to win games is you concentrate your resources on pitching. The Giants have Aaron Rowand leading off, Juan Uribe hitting in front to the pitcher and their best hitter leading the world in grounding into doubleplays -- and neither the Panda or Uribe are the slowest hitters in the lineup. The Giants are not winning tonight, due to their fifth-starter issues, but they came into the night winning seven of their first nine.

Your batting average is irrelevant if all you need to score the tying or go-ahead run is a runner on third with less than two outs.

Giants have won 7 of 9 because in addition to great pitching they are getting the following:

Rowand .304
Renteria .361
Molina .458
Uribe .353

Additionally, the White Sox now and forever will need Beckham to drive in winning runs not bunting them along.

canOcorn
04-16-2010, 10:33 PM
You want Swisher, his me-first mentality and crappy morose attitude and his lousy average back just for a few homers?

Really?? :rolleyes:

These guys are capable hitters. They showed this in Toronto. Now they need to show that consistently.

Over Kotsay (teachers pet) ab-so-****ing-lutey.

Blueprint1
04-16-2010, 10:38 PM
I love to say fire Greg Walker but I know Jerry will never do it. He knows what is best for this team. It's failing the same way over and over again.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 10:39 PM
We can only go by what he did here, and that was about one decent month. The rest of the time he hit under .200, stranded tons of runners, and put himself into the position of being benched for a career AAA player in the playoffs.

What could Swisher add to this lineup now other than being another easy out?


Like I said, I'm not the biggest Swisher fan but even in his worst year he managed 24 HRs and a .332 OBP whereas Kotsay is .338 OBP for his career. So why give away one player (who switch hits) and install an obviously inferior player who plays the same positions into the five hole?

And to answer your question what he would have added is a less easy out than the guys we have now- as evidenced by his career OBP.

thomas35forever
04-16-2010, 10:42 PM
The more games the Sox drop to crap teams, the more I think they will be nothing more than average at best. At 4-7, they're playing themselves out of contention. I know you can't win the division in April, but you can sure lose it.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 10:44 PM
Sorry guys, this team sucks so bad I'm actually longing for Nick ****ing Swisher and for that I apologize.

soxinem1
04-16-2010, 10:47 PM
Like I said, I'm not the biggest Swisher fan but even in his worst year he managed 24 HRs and a .332 OBP whereas Kotsay is .338 OBP for his career. So why give away one player (who switch hits) and install an obviously inferior player who plays the same positions into the five hole?

And to answer your question what he would have added is a less easy out than the guys we have now- as evidenced by his career OBP.

They didn't dump Swisher for Kotsay. They dumped Swisher because he didn't produce and fit in.

His swing was so bad his last two months here that if we were in the NL teams would have walked the pitcher to get to him.

Noneck
04-16-2010, 10:49 PM
They dumped Swisher because he didn't produce and fit in.



And he was going to cost the Sox a lot of money.

Tragg
04-16-2010, 10:53 PM
You want Swisher, his me-first mentality and crappy morose attitude and his lousy average back just for a few homers?

Really?? :rolleyes:
Cabrera was another one...."clubhouse cancer"; "bad chemistry with Ozzie"

But we WON with them. And since they left, we haven't won squat.

WhiteSox5187
04-16-2010, 10:58 PM
Cabrera was another one...."clubhouse cancer"; "bad chemistry with Ozzie"

But we WON with them. And since they left, we haven't won squat.

Swisher was not a big reason why we won that year.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 10:59 PM
Cabrera was another one...."clubhouse cancer"; "bad chemistry with Ozzie"

But we WON with them. And since they left, we haven't won squat.

So true, we would have been better with cabrera both last year and this year still. But no, Alexei HAD to play short.

TDog
04-16-2010, 11:04 PM
Giants have won 7 of 9 because in addition to great pitching they are getting the following:

Rowand .304
Renteria .361
Molina .458
Uribe .353

Additionally, the White Sox now and forever will need Beckham to drive in winning runs not bunting them along.

The Giants are my home team. They are winning because their starting pitching has been lights out four-fifths of the time. If the Sox had their starting pitching, they would be ahead of the Twins in the standings.

And if you don't think Beckham should be bunting, you haven't been paying attention.

Noneck
04-16-2010, 11:14 PM
If the Sox had their starting pitching, they would be ahead of the Twins in the standings.



They would be 9-2 with their .220 team BA? I don't know about that.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-16-2010, 11:25 PM
The Giants are my home team. They are winning because their starting pitching has been lights out four-fifths of the time. If the Sox had their starting pitching, they would be ahead of the Twins in the standings.

And if you don't think Beckham should be bunting, you haven't been paying attention.

1) I'm not sure what the point is but the Giants are winning because in addition to the starting pitching: 1) they happen to have hit .295 over the first 8 games and 2) they've played HOU, ATL and PITT.

2) The Sox have had some good starting pitching and they've squandered it. Regardless, they haven't hit enough to go 9-2.

3) I don't want the Sox giving away outs in general. If that means less bunting and less base stealing attempts then that's fine with me.

doublem23
04-16-2010, 11:37 PM
Swisher was not a big reason why we won that year.

Dude had 588 PAs that year, 4th on the team to only Cabrera, Dye, and Thome and 2nd most OF innings behind Dye. Maybe he's not the guy we think of when we remember 2008 (for good reason), but he played a whole lot for that team.

Noneck
04-16-2010, 11:37 PM
I have been reading numerous threads here about correct bunting situations. Some good points are made by both sides. But at this point all I know is that this team can bunt a heck of a lot better than it has in previous years and so far haven't been able to hit worth a lick so far. So the bottom line is, the situations for bunting don't mean beans unless they start hitting. They will lose a lot of games bunting or not.

palehozenychicty
04-16-2010, 11:50 PM
The Indians have a really ugly roster. We've lost to them three times already this year. Shame on us. I thought we would contend for the division maximum, but we should not be a last place team. It's still early though.

BainesHOF
04-17-2010, 12:00 AM
Ozzie isn't to blame for everything, but he sure is part of the problem. It was ridiculous that Jones didn't start tonight. He was our best hitter in spring training and he's been our best hitter in the regular season. He's approaching 400 career home runs at the age of 32. Yet he ranks ninth in ABs on a team that ranks last in hitting.

Ozzie needs to stop his Twitter inanity and start making better decisions.

johnnyg83
04-17-2010, 12:34 AM
How long can Walker continue to say, "I'm doing a great job, the players just aren't executing." ??

This guy may not be the whole problem, but he is assuredly NOT the solution. And he's had years to affect his technique ... it does NOT work.

And for all the follow up posts saying, you can't blame Walker, then why the **** bother even having a hitting coach if there's no accountability. Which honestly, it doesn't seem like there is to date.

TDog
04-17-2010, 12:45 AM
They would be 9-2 with their .220 team BA? I don't know about that.

If the White Sox had scored all of the runners they have left unscored from third base with one out, without even getting a hit, they would have three losses coming into tonight's game. Minnesota would have one more loss. If they had scored the runner from third tonight, a hit not being necessary to do so, they would have been tied before the Indians scored three two-out unearned runs. At least it's a different ballgame.

If three of the top four starting pitchers in the White Sox starting pitchers had at least one start where they allowed no runs before coming out in the late innings AND hitters had driven in those runs from third base without benefit of a hit, I think it is conceivable the White Sox could be 9-2 with a .220 team batting average.

The Sox would have had a great chance to win the night they were one-hit if Floyd hadn't allowed those last two runs to score.

Whine about the offense. Whine about the bunting. Whine about the managing. But this is a winning team if hitters are making productive outs, especially if the starting pitching is doing as well as it was supposed to do.

Domeshot17
04-17-2010, 12:55 AM
Just because your starting pitching and bullpen are very good doesn't mean you can just hope and wish your offense and defense are also very good. The offense doesn't have the right mix of players to be consistent, so it will be inconsistent, and the defense just lacks the talent to pick it up.

Domeshot17
04-17-2010, 12:56 AM
How long can Walker continue to say, "I'm doing a great job, the players just aren't executing." ??

This guy may not be the whole problem, but he is assuredly NOT the solution. And he's had years to affect his technique ... it does NOT work.

And for all the follow up posts saying, you can't blame Walker, then why the **** bother even having a hitting coach if there's no accountability. Which honestly, it doesn't seem like there is to date.

There is zero accountability by any White Sox coach. 2005 gave everyone a free pass.

Danielgosox38
04-17-2010, 01:02 AM
There is zero accountability by any White Sox coach. 2005 gave everyone a free pass.

Amen.

sullythered
04-17-2010, 01:03 AM
I know a lot of people consider it an "empty stat," but I know for sure if our team BA was a lot higher, we would have a lot more wins, regardless of bunting scenario arguments. I don't know if that has anything to do with the manager, but I doubt it. And for anyone who says "ozzie wanted this kind of team," its not his ****ing job to assemble the team, it's his job to manage it.

russ99
04-17-2010, 01:07 AM
Just because your starting pitching and bullpen are very good doesn't mean you can just hope and wish your offense and defense are also very good. The offense doesn't have the right mix of players to be consistent, so it will be inconsistent, and the defense just lacks the talent to pick it up.

Sorry, but I disagree with that assessment.

Other than Ozzie's inane use of Kotsay, I'd say we have a pretty good mix of players.

Leadoff with Pierre, a good contact hitter in Beckham, power with Quentin, Konerko and Jones, Rios (who should bat 3rd) hitting the ball well, but sometimes at people, A.J. and Alexei (once he gets hot) with their usual production, and Teahen as the 9 hitter.

What is the "right mix of players"? Thome and Dye striking out and grounding into double plays? The problem isn't the mix of players, it's that the players aren't performing to the level of their talent.

Defensively we see errors, but don't realize that 3/4ths of our infield and our entire outfield (short of Pierre's arm) are good defensively. We're not the best in the league, but certainly not the worst.

I have to challenge what everyone's expectations are here. Even the Yankees and Red Sox go through times where things don't go as planned. Do we assume the Sox will win 10-2 every night with stellar defensive plays all around?

With the expected level of performance from the pitching staff and improvement from the hitters, we have a better roster than the 2008 Sox even before Kenny makes his usual midseason trades. I'd prefer to let the season play itself out before calling for Ozzie or Kenny's job. But hey, Walk has to go.:D:

UChicagoHP
04-17-2010, 01:09 AM
I was addressing the issue of fundamentals, which was the complaint in the post I was responding to. Fundamentals have improved over previous seasons.

For that matter, having Kotsay in the lineup today was no more a problem than having Beckham in the lineup. In fact, if Kotsay had been batting second and Beckham fifth, the Sox would have tied the game at 3. If the game is tied, maybe the second Indian three-run rally doesn't happen.

I don't agree with everything Guillen does. I don't like Beckham batting second even when he isn't being called upon to bunt because he doesn't seem to do the things a No. 2 hitter is supposed to do. And I wouldn't have sacrificed the runner to third on the road down by a run, especially with Beckham due up next because he hasn't been successful in getting that run home. In fact, I wouldn't sacrifice most of the times Guillen sacrifices.

Saturday Guillen will probably make the mistake of starting Peavy who will give up too many runs for the Sox to win

But I can't blame Guillen or the coaches for the Sox not winning tonight.

Agreed, a manager gets far too much blame when things go wrong, a convenient scape-goat, if you will. In reality, a good manager may net his team 3 extra wins over the course of a year, a bad one 3 losses. Bottom line, the manager isn't that important in the grand scheme of things, and if the players stink(which is the Sox problem right now, of course), the best manager in the world isn't going to make any difference at all.

Yeah, Ozzie's preference for bunting is not a good thing, the stats have pretty much proven this. But for the most part I think he makes the right calls more often than not. The talent is the issue, and if you want to point a finger(which is stupid to do before June 15th or so), it should be pointed at the man who put the team together and, of course, the players.

jabrch
04-17-2010, 01:16 AM
There is zero accountability by any White Sox coach. 2005 gave everyone a free pass.

I have never heard anyone say/think that except for people accusing people of saying/thinking it. (I'm assuming this includes you based on your tone/history - that you don't really believe that either)

doublem23
04-17-2010, 01:21 AM
I have never heard anyone say/think that except for people accusing people of saying/thinking it. (I'm assuming this includes you based on your tone/history - that you don't really believe that either)

Still trying to tell other people what they think, huh? Good for you. :thumbsup:

Craig Grebeck
04-17-2010, 01:21 AM
What's more annoying: being lectured about smallball and over-reactions, or people referring to Gordon Beckham as Bacon?

doublem23
04-17-2010, 01:22 AM
What's more annoying: being lectured about smallball and over-reactions, or people referring to Gordon Beckham as Bacon?

Since referring to Beckham as Bacon is awesome, I guess I'll take Door #1.

johnnyg83
04-17-2010, 01:24 AM
Agreed, a manager gets far too much blame when things go wrong, a convenient scape-goat, if you will. In reality, a good manager may net his team 3 extra wins over the course of a year, a bad one 3 losses. Bottom line, the manager isn't that important in the grand scheme of things, and if the players stink(which is the Sox problem right now, of course), the best manager in the world isn't going to make any difference at all.

Yeah, Ozzie's preference for bunting is not a good thing, the stats have pretty much proven this. But for the most part I think he makes the right calls more often than not. The talent is the issue, and if you want to point a finger(which is stupid to do before June 15th or so), it should be pointed at the man who put the team together and, of course, the players.

Did you see what happened to the Rockies last year?

Not saying it proves anything, but players do respond differently to different leaders. This whole "they're professionals and it doesn't matter" is bunk, they're humans and need to be managed just like any other employee does, both as individuals and a group.

Craig Grebeck
04-17-2010, 01:25 AM
Since referring to Beckham as Bacon is awesome, I guess I'll take Door #1.
Fair enough -- I find it abhorrent. I'll say it's okay if people tell me why sacrificing Gordon Beckham twice in the same game against erratic pitchers is a good idea (on the first pitch, no less).

Nellie_Fox
04-17-2010, 01:37 AM
Fair enough -- I find it abhorrent. I'll say it's okay if people tell me why sacrificing Gordon Beckham twice in the same game against erratic pitchers is a good idea (on the first pitch, no less).For the love of Pete, let it go. I beg you.

jabrch
04-17-2010, 01:53 AM
Still trying to tell other people what they think, huh? Good for you. :thumbsup:

What are you talking about?

I'm trying to validate that Dome didn't believe that everyone deserves a free pass. I wasn't telling him what he thinks. I was saying what I ASSUME HE MEANT - an invitation for him to correct me if I am wrong. I wasn't telling him anything except what my interpretation was. I don't get you Dubs...I don't get you one bit.

Noneck
04-17-2010, 01:54 AM
If the White Sox had scored all of the runners they have left unscored from third base with one out, without even getting a hit, they would have three losses coming into tonight's game. Minnesota would have one more loss. If they had scored the runner from third tonight, a hit not being necessary to do so, they would have been tied before the Indians scored three two-out unearned runs. At least it's a different ballgame.

If three of the top four starting pitchers in the White Sox starting pitchers had at least one start where they allowed no runs before coming out in the late innings AND hitters had driven in those runs from third base without benefit of a hit, I think it is conceivable the White Sox could be 9-2 with a .220 team batting average.

The Sox would have had a great chance to win the night they were one-hit if Floyd hadn't allowed those last two runs to score.

Whine about the offense. Whine about the bunting. Whine about the managing. But this is a winning team if hitters are making productive outs, especially if the starting pitching is doing as well as it was supposed to do.

It is possible of course, but even you know there are way too many ifs to make it probable, being 9-2 with the way they are hitting. Even with great pitching.

Slappy
04-17-2010, 02:10 AM
They didn't dump Swisher for Kotsay. They dumped Swisher because he didn't produce and fit in.

His swing was so bad his last two months here that if we were in the NL teams would have walked the pitcher to get to him.

Did you see Rios' swing the last two months of the season last year? Now THAT was bad.

I'd rather have the Swisher of now on our team more than about 90 percent of the guys on our current roster.

Whatever, this whole organization is bonkers, and I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. I thought Kenny had something this year, but it looks like his best move has been getting Jones, and we're still putting Kotsay out there.

Now Ozzie "Method to the Madness" Guillen is going bunt crazy with Beckham. Beckham is a free swinger, don't take the bat out of his hand. They're trying to make this kid do everything for the team, and they're going to ruin him.

pudge
04-17-2010, 02:10 AM
With the expected level of performance from the pitching staff and improvement from the hitters, we have a better roster than the 2008 Sox ...

I think most would disagree at this point that this roster is better than the 2008 Sox, and I don't know that many of us thought this team was better than '08. Let's call out some of the obvious:

Crede's defense at 3B
Cabrera's defense at SS
82 walks from Swisher
MVP season from Quentin
Jim Thome
Jermaine Dye
Staff almost the same (except Vazquez instead of Peavy)

Carneyman14
04-17-2010, 02:23 AM
It seems like the management (ozzie or not) wants us to be about pitching and defense. I totally agree. That is what wins championships. but when sometimes you score 11+ runs and then lay a goose egg it just leaves you frustrated. I could not tell you what this team needs because I don't know.

guillensdisciple
04-17-2010, 02:51 AM
It seems like the management (ozzie or not) wants us to be about pitching and defense. I totally agree. That is what wins championships. but when sometimes you score 11+ runs and then lay a goose egg it just leaves you frustrated. I could not tell you what this team needs because I don't know.


I think that is what we'll be unless this team finds its groove- frustrated.

However, I see it turning around so I am going to keep myself on the ground. No jumping off the bridge.

sullythered
04-17-2010, 03:08 AM
I know a lot of people consider it an "empty stat," but I know for sure if our team BA was a lot higher, we would have a lot more wins, regardless of bunting scenario arguments. I don't know if that has anything to do with the manager, but I doubt it. And for anyone who says "ozzie wanted this kind of team," its not his ****ing job to assemble the team, it's his job to manage it.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 05:10 AM
Not to keep up bring sacrifice bunts, but why bunt with Pierre when he specializes in weak ground balls to 2B. At least he would have a chance at getting a base hit and driving in the run himself.

"Hey, we got a guy in scoring position! Let's hurry up and make an out to make it easier on the opponent."

Lillian
04-17-2010, 06:23 AM
Sorry, but I disagree with that assessment.

Other than Ozzie's inane use of Kotsay, I'd say we have a pretty good mix of players.

Leadoff with Pierre, a good contact hitter in Beckham, power with Quentin, Konerko and Jones, Rios (who should bat 3rd) hitting the ball well, but sometimes at people, A.J. and Alexei (once he gets hot) with their usual production, and Teahen as the 9 hitter.

What is the "right mix of players"? Thome and Dye striking out and grounding into double plays? The problem isn't the mix of players, it's that the players aren't performing to the level of their talent.

Defensively we see errors, but don't realize that 3/4ths of our infield and our entire outfield (short of Pierre's arm) are good defensively. We're not the best in the league, but certainly not the worst.

I have to challenge what everyone's expectations are here. Even the Yankees and Red Sox go through times where things don't go as planned. Do we assume the Sox will win 10-2 every night with stellar defensive plays all around?

With the expected level of performance from the pitching staff and improvement from the hitters, we have a better roster than the 2008 Sox even before Kenny makes his usual midseason trades. I'd prefer to let the season play itself out before calling for Ozzie or Kenny's job. But hey, Walk has to go.:D:

Very sound reasoning. I agree. Now if Ozzie would just play Jones, I would be willing to exercise both patience and restraint. However, since he seems bent on playing Kotsay almost every time their is an opposing right handed starter, I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 06:37 AM
Very sound reasoning. I agree. Now if Ozzie would just play Jones, I would be willing to exercise both patience and restraint. However, since he seems bent on playing Kotsay almost every time their is an opposing right handed starter, I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:

I'm just really having a hard time picturing this mix of players playing like a contender for a long stretch of time. It's pretty bad that I already have no confidence in this team after 10 games. I'm not normally like that all.

Even last year, I thought it would come together somewhat for at least a short period of time.

This is just such a discombobulated team. Yes, I just wanted to use that word, but it was fitting.

masloan
04-17-2010, 06:47 AM
The 2 guys who we are are considering our most valuable offensive players are struggling.

Beckham is currently 2 fo 9 w/RISP, and he has 0 RBI in 3 ABs with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 out. His AB in the 6th was a huge turning point in the game.

Quentin has hit in to 3 doubleplays already, and is only hitting .222. 60% of his RBI have come in 1 game. That means he has 4 RBI in the other 10 games.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 06:50 AM
The 2 guys who we are are considering our most valuable offensive players are struggling.

Beckham is currently 2 fo 9 w/RISP, and he has 0 RBI in 3 ABs with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 out. His AB in the 6th was a huge turning point in the game.

Quentin has hit in to 3 doubleplays already, and is only hitting .222. 60% of his RBI have come in 1 game. That means he has 4 RBI in the other 10 games.

If everytime 2 out of 9 hitters go into a slump, we play awful baseball... it's going to be a very long season.

masloan
04-17-2010, 06:57 AM
If everytime 2 out of 9 hitters go into a slump, we play awful baseball... it's going to be a very long season.

Really?

Where did I say that they are the ONLY CAUSE of the hitting issues?

But I think we can all agree that they are supposed to be our best offensive players...right?

People sit here all day and complain about Teahen, and about the Kotsay/Jones situation. Pierre as well. But nobody mentions Beckham or Quentin. They are our best hitters so they have higher expectations. If Pujols and Holliday struggle at the same time, you dont think it will hurt the Cardinals? We all know that the Sox are not like Yankees offensively. The Sox do not have Jeter, Granderson, Arod, Tex, Cano etc...

Therefore, for them to succeed Quentin and Beckham have to play to their potential...and right now they are not. It is not just 2 out or 9 guys...it is these 2.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 07:03 AM
Really?

Where did I say that they are the ONLY CAUSE of the hitting issues?

But I think we can all agree that they are supposed to be our best offensive players...right?

People sit here all day and complain about Teahen, and about the Kotsay/Jones situation. Pierre as well. But nobody mentions Beckham or Quentin. They are our best hitters so they have higher expectations. If Pujols and Holliday struggle at the same time, you dont think it will hurt the Cardinals? We all know that the Sox are not like Yankees offensively. The Sox do not have Jeter, Granderson, Arod, Tex, Cano etc...

Therefore, for them to succeed Quentin and Beckham have to play to their potential...and right now they are not. It is not just 2 out or 9 guys...it is these 2.

Well you used them as a valid exuse for our offense struggling.

No one says anything about them because most intelligent people realize they are good hitters that are doing to hit, health permitted.

Of course people are going to complain about garbage hitting like garbage. If those other seven players are remotely capable, they can make up for 2/9 slumping.

soxinem1
04-17-2010, 07:11 AM
I think most would disagree at this point that this roster is better than the 2008 Sox, and I don't know that many of us thought this team was better than '08. Let's call out some of the obvious:

Crede's defense at 3B
Cabrera's defense at SS
82 walks from Swisher
MVP season from Quentin
Jim Thome
Jermaine Dye
Staff almost the same (except Vazquez instead of Peavy)

Hmmm, your assessment of these players is a bit off, IMHO:

Crede had his worst year defensively in 2008, and missed a lot of time, which is one of the reasons he is not here anymore.

Cabrera made the routine plays, but nothing more.

82 walks from Swisher translated to a .668 off-base percentage.

They won the division without Quentin.

I'll give you Thome and Dye, but this staff, especially the Peavy-Vazquez difference, has way better stuff and will obviously be more integral in getting the 2010 White Sox to the playoffs than the 2008 staff.

Did you see Rios' swing the last two months of the season last year? Now THAT was bad.

I'd rather have the Swisher of now on our team more than about 90 percent of the guys on our current roster.

Whatever, this whole organization is bonkers, and I really tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. I thought Kenny had something this year, but it looks like his best move has been getting Jones, and we're still putting Kotsay out there.

Now Ozzie "Method to the Madness" Guillen is going bunt crazy with Beckham. Beckham is a free swinger, don't take the bat out of his hand. They're trying to make this kid do everything for the team, and they're going to ruin him.

Rios offers a lot more than Swisher ever dreamed of. He can steal, throw, and get the ball in the OF. If you ask any pitcher on this team who they would rather have in the OF, I'm sure Rios would win a unanimous vote.

I do agree with the Beckham assessemnt though. Absolute madness.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 07:18 AM
Hmmm, your assessment of these players is a bit off, IMHO:

Crede had his worst year defensively in 2008, and missed a lot of time, which is one of the reasons he is not here anymore.

Crede's worst defensive season is lightyears better than Teahen's.

Cabrera made the routine plays, but nothing more.

Having Ramirez at SS makes me miss Cabrera.

82 walks from Swisher translated to a .668 off-base percentage..

His OBP was very helpful the first half the season. He was horrible the second half. He really wasn't that much of an asset.

They won the division without Quentin.

They won the division without Quentin for one month. Still good, but hardly what you said.

canOcorn
04-17-2010, 07:23 AM
It seems like the management (ozzie or not) wants us to be about pitching and defense. I totally agree. That is what wins championships. but when sometimes you score 11+ runs and then lay a goose egg it just leaves you frustrated. I could not tell you what this team needs because I don't know.

I think most will agree in trying to improve our pitching and defense over last year. It would also be nice if we were able to manufacture a run now and again, but it appears that as much as Ozzie is trying to force feed his small ball bull**** down our throats we still score most of our runs via the HR and not via his small ball bull****.

Toons have 4 wins on the season, 3 against us. :(:

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 07:26 AM
I think most will agree in trying to improve our pitching and defense over last year. It would also be nice if we were able to manufacture a run now and again, but it appears that as much as Ozzie is trying to force feed his small ball bull**** down our throats we still score most of our runs via the HR and not via his small ball bull****.

Toons have 4 wins on the season, 3 against us. :(:

Manufactoring runs is getting hits. Just have your hitter go up there and try to hit a ****ing line drive. No more taking the bat out of people's hands, unless you're Mark Kotsay.

masloan
04-17-2010, 07:31 AM
Well you used them as a valid exuse for our offense struggling.

No one says anything about them because most intelligent people realize they are good hitters that are doing to hit, health permitted.

Of course people are going to complain about garbage hitting like garbage. If those other seven players are remotely capable, they can make up for 2/9 slumping.

Really read my original post again. I never once "used them as a valid excuse for our offense struggling". All I said was they are our 2 most important offensive players AND they are struggling.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 07:33 AM
Really read my original post again. I never once "used them as a valid excuse for our offense struggling". All I said was they are our 2 most important offensive players AND they are struggling.

It seemed pretty clear to me that you solely referencing their slumps was a way to justify our complete lack of offense.

Do you agree that the other seven guys should be able to pick up the slack?

Frater Perdurabo
04-17-2010, 07:36 AM
You said you completely agree with the post by Bacon which says that Ozzie has not chosen the correct time to call for a sacrifice bunt yet this season. I just gave you an example of a sac bunt by Ozzie that was a good call, which you now agree with.

What am I missing? :scratch:

Just because I was OK with the 9th inning bunt doesn't mean I thought it was the best call in that situation.

masloan
04-17-2010, 07:45 AM
It seemed pretty clear to me that you solely referencing their slumps was a way to justify our complete lack of offense.

Do you agree that the other seven guys should be able to pick up the slack?

You are completely wrong. I was citing that to show that they too are contributing to the slumping offense. Yes, most of the guys need to pick up the slack. But let me ask you this question. You said that people are going to complain about garbage players and that most intelligent people know Beckham and Quentin will hit. Which 2 guys will have a bigger effect on the white sox offense...Beckham and Quentin OR Pierre and Teahen?

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 07:53 AM
You are completely wrong. I was citing that to show that they too are contributing to the slumping offense. Yes, most of the guys need to pick up the slack. But let me ask you this question. You said that people are going to complain about garbage players and that most intelligent people know Beckham and Quentin will hit. Which 2 guys will have a bigger effect on the white sox offense...Beckham and Quentin OR Pierre and Teahen?

Quentin OPS: .817
Beckham OPS: .705

Ramirez OPS: .444
Kotsay OPS: .481
Pierre OPS: 501
Pierzynski OPS: 506

I didn't even bother to look up Rios because he actually has look good at the plate. Alot of line drives. Alot of tough breaks.

So when Beckham and Quentin drop .100 OPS below their norm, this team is doomed.

The other five I listed are embarrassing. Quentin and Beckham aren't doing bad, and they will hit. The others I'm not sure besides average production from Pierzysnki, which I'm okay with.

masloan
04-17-2010, 07:59 AM
Quentin OPS: .817
Beckham OPS: .705

Ramirez OPS: .444
Kotsay OPS: .481
Pierre OPS: 501
Pierzynski OPS: 506

I didn't even bother to look up Rios because he actually has look good at the plate. Alot of line drives. Alot of tough breaks.

So when Beckham and Quentin drop .100 OPS below their norm, this team is doomed.

The other five I listed are embarrassing. Quentin and Beckham aren't doing bad, and they will hit. The others I'm not sure besides average production from Pierzysnki, which I'm okay with.

I never said the team is doomed. All I said is they too are contributing to the slumping offense. It is a joke to think they are not.

You say that Beckham and QUentin are going to hit, but what does that mean. Does it mean Quentin hits like 2008 and is a MVP type player? Will Beckham hit over .300 with 25-30 home runs and become one of the leagues top hitters? Or will Quentin hit .275 with 25 HR and 90 RBI and just be a pretty good hitter. Will Beckham not take a huge step this year and finish hitting .275 with 15-20 home runs? They both have huge potential and whether or not they reach it this year might be a key determinig factor in the White Sox success.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 08:08 AM
I never said the team is doomed. All I said is they too are contributing to the slumping offense. It is a joke to think they are not.

You say that Beckham and QUentin are going to hit, but what does that mean. Does it mean Quentin hits like 2008 and is a MVP type player? Will Beckham hit over .300 with 25-30 home runs and become one of the leagues top hitters? Or will Quentin hit .275 with 25 HR and 90 RBI and just be a pretty good hitter. Will Beckham not take a huge step this year and finish hitting .275 with 15-20 home runs? They both have huge potential and whether or not they reach it this year might be a key determinig factor in the White Sox success.

Well obviously. I could say that about alot of hitters in the lineup.

I expect Beckham to improve on last season .280/.360 with 20 homeruns, 40 doubles, and 10 SB.

Quentins' ceiling is .300/.400, 40 homeruns. I think he will be around .270/.365, 35 homeruns. Which is more than enough in my book.

The guys around them just have to hit. Pierre needs to get one base. Jones needs to drive them in. Kotsay needs to so sit the bench. Alexei needs to show he's capable of hitting at A ball. Things have to right around them, and the biggest contributor is going to have to be Rios. I think Rios will be fine. He's swinging the bat well and with confidence.

masloan
04-17-2010, 08:12 AM
Well obviously. I could say that about alot of hitters in the lineup.



Wow you just dont get.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 08:13 AM
Wow you just dont get.

Ok, I get it.

Quentin and Beckham need to hit better.

Great point.

SCCWS
04-17-2010, 08:47 AM
Quentin OPS: .817
Beckham OPS: .705

Ramirez OPS: .444
Kotsay OPS: .481
Pierre OPS: 501
Pierzynski OPS: 506

I didn't even bother to look up Rios because he actually has look good at the plate. Alot of line drives. Alot of tough breaks.

So when Beckham and Quentin drop .100 OPS below their norm, this team is doomed.

The other five I listed are embarrassing. Quentin and Beckham aren't doing bad, and they will hit. The others I'm not sure besides average production from Pierzysnki, which I'm okay with.



Some critics feel that the OPS" is not a great formula for measuring performance. They feel that the on base percentage is nearer to the mark than the combination of on base percentage and slugging percentage.

Criticism stems from the fact that slugging percentage and on base percentage are given equal status in OPS. However, on base percentage tends to more accurately indicate the likelihood that a player will actually make it to the home plate and score a run. In fact on base percentage tends to be about a 10-25% lower than OPS. OPS was first established in the 1980s, so it is a new way of evaluating offensive skill. It is a popular measurement for baseball fans. However, it may not be given as much credence by coaches (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-different-types-of-coaches.htm) when assessing value of an individual player. "

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 08:52 AM
Some critics feel that the OPS" is not a great formula for measuring performance. They feel that the on base percentage is nearer to the mark than the combination of on base percentage and slugging percentage.

Criticism stems from the fact that slugging percentage and on base percentage are given equal status in OPS. However, on base percentage tends to more accurately indicate the likelihood that a player will actually make it to the home plate and score a run. In fact on base percentage tends to be about a 10-25% lower than OPS. OPS was first established in the 1980s, so it is a new way of evaluating offensive skill. It is a popular measurement for baseball fans. However, it may not be given as much credence by coaches (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-different-types-of-coaches.htm) when assessing value of an individual player. "

Ok, well I don't have to look to realize the same players' OBP are awful.

You also still need to slug to score runs. These players are doing neither.

Craig Grebeck
04-17-2010, 09:07 AM
Too soon to cite OPS. You can find evidence of these guys sucking all over the place, but the sample size is too small for OPS.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 09:09 AM
Too soon to cite OPS. You can find evidence of these guys sucking all over the place, but the sample size is too small for OPS.

Whatever. I wasn't using it as a massive sample size. I was just using it to show lack of production. Pick any stat you want, the point still remains.

Craig Grebeck
04-17-2010, 09:16 AM
Whatever. I wasn't using it as a massive sample size. I was just using it to show lack of production. Pick any stat you want, the point still remains.
OBP and SLG are just too volatile through 11 games. I know the point stands -- these guys are sucking, but it's a waste of time trying to use OPS in isolation. Even citing the slash stats separately would be more productive at this point.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 09:20 AM
OBP and SLG are just too volatile through 11 games. I know the point stands -- these guys are sucking, but it's a waste of time trying to use OPS in isolation. Even citing the slash stats separately would be more productive at this point.

Well I was lazy. I haven't slept and wanted to show the most overall lack of production in the fastest time possible.

It still shows they suck so it can't be too off. If there were arguments for these hitters in other categories, I would've looked into it. But they are bad across the board.

Quentin and Beckham are and will be fine. That was my point. If they slack, these other guys need to pick them up. They have yet to show they are capable of such a tast besides Konerko, and Rios. Jones, hopefully.

masloan
04-17-2010, 09:32 AM
Well I was lazy. I haven't slept and wanted to show the most overall lack of production in the fastest time possible.

It still shows they suck so it can't be too off. If there were arguments for these hitters in other categories, I would've looked into it. But they are bad across the board.

Quentin and Beckham are and will be fine. That was my point. If they slack, these other guys need to pick them up. They have yet to show they are capable of such a tast besides Konerko, and Rios. Jones, hopefully.

Your thinking is so incredibly backwards. The other guys have to pick up the slack for Quentin and Beckham? No, the best players on your team are supposed to be the ones who pick up the lesser players. The whole team is struggling but stop overlooking the struggles of our best players just bc you "know" they will be fine.

BringHomeDaBacon
04-17-2010, 09:32 AM
Well I was lazy. I haven't slept and wanted to show the most overall lack of production in the fastest time possible.

It still shows they suck so it can't be too off. If there were arguments for these hitters in other categories, I would've looked into it. But they are bad across the board.

Quentin and Beckham are and will be fine. That was my point. If they slack, these other guys need to pick them up. They have yet to show they are capable of such a tast besides Konerko, and Rios. Jones, hopefully.

Let's look at the career OPS of the four guys you cited:

Kotsay .749, AJ .752, Pierre .718, Alexei .745 and throw in teahen .751

Hardly inspiring - at least AJ and Alexei play C and SS. From DH and left field - you HAVE to do better.

Domeshot17
04-17-2010, 10:04 AM
Sorry, but I disagree with that assessment.

Other than Ozzie's inane use of Kotsay, I'd say we have a pretty good mix of players.

Leadoff with Pierre, a good contact hitter in Beckham, power with Quentin, Konerko and Jones, Rios (who should bat 3rd) hitting the ball well, but sometimes at people, A.J. and Alexei (once he gets hot) with their usual production, and Teahen as the 9 hitter.

What is the "right mix of players"? Thome and Dye striking out and grounding into double plays? The problem isn't the mix of players, it's that the players aren't performing to the level of their talent.

Defensively we see errors, but don't realize that 3/4ths of our infield and our entire outfield (short of Pierre's arm) are good defensively. We're not the best in the league, but certainly not the worst.

I have to challenge what everyone's expectations are here. Even the Yankees and Red Sox go through times where things don't go as planned. Do we assume the Sox will win 10-2 every night with stellar defensive plays all around?

With the expected level of performance from the pitching staff and improvement from the hitters, we have a better roster than the 2008 Sox even before Kenny makes his usual midseason trades. I'd prefer to let the season play itself out before calling for Ozzie or Kenny's job. But hey, Walk has to go.:D:

I still disagree. Pierre is an average leadoff man, Beckham is a complete waste of talent in the 2 spot. Quentin could be great, but he has 1 good season under his belt and has never played an entire season healthy. Konerko is solid but aging and unspectacular, Jones looks good, but Ozzie seems content to play Kotsay. Rios has looked impressive, but hes never been close to a guy who can carry the load offensively. Then you have a crop of just vanilla players in Teahen, AJ, Alexei.

The team Ozzie wants is the Red Sox. A team that doesn't have a 30 home run hitter, but will score a ton of runs. But the difference is the Red Sox have what, 4 guys who can hit over .300 maybe 5, another 4 guys who should finish with an 875 ops or higher and are just stellar defensively.

The Sox may not finish the season with anyone hitting .300 (although Pierre and possibly AJ have chances). The may not have one hitter who ops's over .850.

This offense is built to do what it is doing, be inconsistent, to score 10 runs one night and 2 the next. And the idea you can't say its a bad offense because if everything goes right its not is just bad thinking. In terms of the defense, Teahen isn't very good at 3rd. He won't hurt you, but he isn't much. Alexei is looking better at short, but far from a gold glover still, Beckham can handle 2b but again not defense wasn't ever the best part of his game and PK is strong at first. Quentin is a sub par defensive OF, Pierre has good range and no ARM, Rios is fine in CF. Its like a C+ Defense with a C offense and A pitching. It also is not good we are already 4 back after 2 weeks. If we don't turn this around FAST, and find a way to string together wins, we might be looking at 6 or 7 back after 1 month. Can't put yourself in a hole like that and expect to win.

Not saying the season is over, far from it, what I am saying is this offense has to put it togethr and NOW because it is not near good enough to rip off a huge winning streak to get back into contention if it puts itself in a big hole early.

DickAllen72
04-17-2010, 10:08 AM
Other than Ozzie's inane use of Kotsay, I'd say we have a pretty good mix of players.

Leadoff with Pierre, a good contact hitter in Beckham, power with Quentin, Konerko and Jones, Rios (who should bat 3rd) hitting the ball well, but sometimes at people, A.J. and Alexei (once he gets hot) with their usual production, and Teahen as the 9 hitter.
The Sox need to have their best nine players out there almost everyday, batting in a steady batting order in order to gel as a team.

They still have a below average infield defense and they still lack at least one if not two strong bats, but at least if they line up with a consistent lineup that makes baseball sense, I think they can at least hold their own providing the pitching doesn't fall apart.

But if they continue to keep juggling the lineup everyday just to get Kotsay ABs and Vizquel playing time they will continue to stress the pitching staff by not scoring enough runs, resulting in playing too many close games and too many extra inning games. Add to that the sloppy defense and you have a recipe for another losing season.

Let the nine starters (Jones can rotate through as DH and give each of the outfielders a break while they DH) get a chance to settle in to regular roles both in the field and in the batting order and see what happens. Then KW can make adjustments at the deadline accordingly.

Hitmen77
04-17-2010, 10:39 AM
We're under performing and not playing to our potential. Not taking care of teams we should take care of. This team might put itself into an irreversible hole.

I just want a solid season, from start to finish. IS that too difficult? I hate losing hope this early, when nothing seems to go right. It's early, but damn are the Sox doing their best to make me think about their chances.

Same old story for the Sox. An offense that again and again fails to come through, shoddy defense, and pitching that is not quite as great as everyone likes to think.

I think this is the earliest I've lost interest in a Sox team in a long time. Even in 2007 and '09 they strung us along at least into May.

Just wait until the offense comes around, then watch out! We've heard this excuse since July 2006 and anyone who still believes it is a fool. This is the offense that Ozzie wanted. I hope he's happy with the completely predictable results.

I just hope they don't have another stinker of a game when I go next Saturday for my first visit to the Cell this season.

mccoydp
04-17-2010, 10:47 AM
I think this is the earliest I've lost interest in a Sox team in a long time. Even in 2007 and '09 they strung us along at least into May.



I'm getting there myself. I took the dog for a long walk last night and came home to spin some vinyl records instead of watching the latest Sox crap-fest.

wassagstdu
04-17-2010, 11:37 AM
This is the offense that Ozzie wanted. I hope he's happy with the completely predictable results.

I'm sure Ozzie has always wanted an offense that would struggle to hit above .200. And a poor defense. It's all his fault.

Lip Man 1
04-17-2010, 11:43 AM
Wassag:

I'm sure Ozzie believes in his heart that his style is the way to go. And his style can work IF you have the players good enough to do it...just like the home run or nothing approach can work if you have a lineup full of guys like the Sox did in the early 2000's who hit 35 home runs AND hit .290. It wasn't good enough to win everything because they didn't have the pitching which is also a factor in how a team succeeds or doesn't.

The problem is that the Sox haven't had the talent to do either style well since July 2006 and it has showed in many ways on the field.

Whatever style you choose you simply have to have the talent, period.

Lip

veeter
04-17-2010, 11:54 AM
The Sox are better than they're playing. If they can stick around .500 until they hit a rhythm, they're going to win a lot of games. Pierre and Beckham HAVE to get it going.

jabrch
04-17-2010, 12:04 PM
You can use any statistic from the first 10 games to tell me what happened - sample size has nothing to do with a historical population.

Now if you want to tell me what is GOING TO HAPPEN, that's a totally different story.

hawkjt
04-17-2010, 12:13 PM
The Sox just flat out do not have enough high-average hitters yet again this year,so far. This has been a consistent problem for years ...for some reason, the Sox cannot develop high average hitters, and when they trade for them,their average drops off when they become Sox.
Gets very old.
I have defended Kenny,Ozzie and Walker but at some point, this trend has become a real pattern. Just not enough good hitters or not good approach? Nurture or nature? At some point,does it matter?

Start hitting Sox!!

Hitmen77
04-17-2010, 12:15 PM
The Sox are better than they're playing. If they can stick around .500 until they hit a rhythm, they're going to win a lot of games.

They've been telling me this since July 2006. That's a long time for the Sox to have the same excuse.

The only time it's worked out for us was 2008, and even then we were clearly outclassed by our opponent once we made it to the playoffs.

jabrch
04-17-2010, 12:25 PM
They've been telling me this since July 2006. That's a long time for the Sox to have the same excuse.

The only time it's worked out for us was 2008, and even then we were clearly outclassed by our opponent once we made it to the playoffs.

So you are saying the sucked since the second half of 06 with the exception of 08 - where losing the the team that made it to the WS is their shame?

Meh...

It's not the Red Sox/Yanks, but this franchise has been fairly good in recent times under OG/KW despite the fact that they have only 1 WS win and 2 playoff appearances in 5 years.

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 12:27 PM
Your thinking is so incredibly backwards. The other guys have to pick up the slack for Quentin and Beckham? No, the best players on your team are supposed to be the ones who pick up the lesser players. The whole team is struggling but stop overlooking the struggles of our best players just bc you "know" they will be fine.

How is that "incredibly backwards"? Of course those two guys can't carry the team all season. They aren't Arod and Texeira, and that's an incredibly hard task anyways.

All I am saying is when these two go on cold streaks, the rest of the offense needs to produce in some fashion. So far they have shown absolutely zero competence besides Konerko, and Jones. Rios to an extent.

I'm not overlooking anything. Obviously if they aren't hitting, they were part of the problem. But they haven't been awful and they have at least shown signs of being productive, this year and in the past.

JermaineDye05
04-17-2010, 12:52 PM
The Sox are better than they're playing. If they can stick around .500 until they hit a rhythm, they're going to win a lot of games. Pierre and Beckham HAVE to get it going.

I think what's frustrating is that we know this division is going to be decided by 5 games or less, most likely less. And we have pretty much pissed away 3 games against the Cleveland Indians. That could look really bad come seasons end if the Sox found themselves a couple games behind the Twins and/or Tigers.

soltrain21
04-17-2010, 01:00 PM
The Sox are better than they're playing. If they can stick around .500 until they hit a rhythm, they're going to win a lot of games. Pierre and Beckham HAVE to get it going.

"Just wait till they hit their stride." - Hawk

SI1020
04-17-2010, 01:05 PM
So you are saying the sucked since the second half of 06 with the exception of 08 - where losing the the team that made it to the WS is their shame?

Meh...

It's not the Red Sox/Yanks, but this franchise has been fairly good in recent times under OG/KW despite the fact that they have only 1 WS win and 2 playoff appearances in 5 years. One can point to that division win in 08 but the team is still 278-296 since 7-7-06. How much of a sample size is enough? How long of playing sub .500 baseball is enough?

JB98
04-17-2010, 01:41 PM
One can point to that division win in 08 but the team is still 278-296 since 7-7-06. How much of a sample size is enough? How long of playing sub .500 baseball is enough?

Yes. One statistic you can't run from is the won-loss record. That's the bottom line in pro sports.

The 4-7 start alone isn't what frustrates me. Baseball history is full of teams that have recovered from starts like this to make the playoffs. I've lost confidence in the White Sox because I've been looking at mediocre to less-than-mediocre baseball for three and a half years.

Thank goodness we won a one-run ballgame in Game 163 in 2008. If not for that, it would be four straight years of no playoffs. Even as it stands, we've had two losing campaigns in the last three years.

At some point here, I'd like to see some signs that things are going to be different than they were last year. So far, I'm seeing the same weaknesses I've seen in the past.

Slappy
04-17-2010, 02:33 PM
I'd rather have Swisher and O-Cab right now over Quentin and Alexei. Does Quentins swing instill confidence in you? He doesn't look fundamentally great at the plate by any means. And Alexei...

How well is Swisher doing right now and how consistently has O-Cab played his entire career? The club-house cancer thing is a joke. Ozzie just needs to surround himself with yes-men who won't ever make a peep about anything. He's a bonafide egomaniac.

Bah. :bartto you White Sox

HomeFish
04-17-2010, 02:34 PM
After seven years of loyal posting on WSI, I read this thread and realized that it's finally happened. I've finally become unnecessary and obsolete around here. :(:

Slappy
04-17-2010, 02:36 PM
After seven years of loyal posting on WSI, I read this thread and realized that it's finally happened. I've finally become unnecessary and obsolete around here. :(:

Damn you, Thucydides!

SI1020
04-17-2010, 02:40 PM
After seven years of loyal posting on WSI, I read this thread and realized that it's finally happened. I've finally become unnecessary and obsolete around here. :(: I probably am too, but I still post anyway.

Hitmen77
04-17-2010, 03:56 PM
I'm getting there myself. I took the dog for a long walk last night and came home to spin some vinyl records instead of watching the latest Sox crap-fest.

I turned on the game yesterday just at the instant that the Indians tied it up 1-1. The next batter knocked it out of the park and the Sox were down 3-1. Ugh. Typical luck for me - they start losing as soon as I turn on the game.:angry:

DickAllen72
04-17-2010, 06:30 PM
I'd rather have Swisher and O-Cab right now over Quentin and Alexei. Does Quentins swing instill confidence in you? He doesn't look fundamentally great at the plate by any means. And Alexei...

How well is Swisher doing right now and how consistently has O-Cab played his entire career? The club-house cancer thing is a joke. Ozzie just needs to surround himself with yes-men who won't ever make a peep about anything. He's a bonafide egomaniac.


I'll take Juan Uribe over O-Cab any day.

Slappy
04-17-2010, 06:50 PM
The way he's playing this year maybe.

Hitmen77
04-17-2010, 07:05 PM
I'm sure Ozzie has always wanted an offense that would struggle to hit above .200. And a poor defense. It's all his fault.

Who said he wanted us to hit .200? But this IS the lineup he wanted. He campaigned all winter on the idea that we don't another bat for our lineup.

Oh, by the way we lost another 1 run game today. But, one extra hitter isn't going to make a difference for the Sox, so why bother trying to get one.

JB98
04-17-2010, 07:13 PM
Who said he wanted us to hit .200? But this IS the lineup he wanted. He campaigned all winter on the idea that we don't another bat for our lineup.

Oh, by the way we lost another 1 run game today. But, one extra hitter isn't going to make a difference for the Sox, so why bother trying to get one.

And shame on KW for listening to him.

KW is Ozzie's boss. He's paid to know better.

Tragg
04-17-2010, 08:17 PM
And shame on KW for listening to him.

KW is Ozzie's boss. He's paid to know better.
Can't argue with that.

I think Williams ceded a lot of the talent evaluation and selection to Guillen at the end of 2006.

SI1020
04-17-2010, 08:28 PM
Can't argue with that.

I think Williams ceded a lot of the talent evaluation and selection to Guillen at the end of 2006. That's worked out real well.