PDA

View Full Version : Astros Suicide Watch?


jabrch
04-15-2010, 12:36 PM
Houston is now 0-8. They have a crappy lineup. Their starting pitching is mediocre and their pen is horrendous.

Berkman is on the shelf - Geoff Blum is starting at 1B. This squad could threaten some of the all time worsts if they make a few firesale trades at the deadline.

Now I haven't seen everyone play yet - and it is early - so we don't know...but based on what we do know, is there a worse team in MLB than Houston? I think some of the traditional worsts (Pittsburh, KC and Baltimore) look better than the Stros.

Thoughts?

pythons007
04-15-2010, 01:28 PM
What's wrong with Blum?

Moses_Scurry
04-15-2010, 01:32 PM
Houston is now 0-8. They have a crappy lineup. Their starting pitching is mediocre and their pen is horrendous.

Berkman is on the shelf - Geoff Blum is starting at 1B. This squad could threaten some of the all time worsts if they make a few firesale trades at the deadline.

Now I haven't seen everyone play yet - and it is early - so we don't know...but based on what we do know, is there a worse team in MLB than Houston? I think some of the traditional worsts (Pittsburh, KC and Baltimore) look better than the Stros.

Thoughts?

Who would be some players that could be liberated from the Astros that would help the Sox?

Berkman for DH/PH/backup 1B?
Oswalt for 5th/6th starter/insurance?

GoGoCrede
04-15-2010, 01:34 PM
It's interesting to see how different our franchises are now since 2005. Very stark.

BadBobbyJenks
04-15-2010, 01:36 PM
And their minor league system might be worse than ours. Good luck Houston fans.

TheOldRoman
04-15-2010, 01:40 PM
Who would be some players that could be liberated from the Astros that would help the Sox?

Berkman for DH/PH/backup 1B?
Oswalt for 5th/6th starter/insurance?Oswalt is under contract for $16 million next year. I don't think the Sox would want to take that on for a fifth starter. As for Berkman, yes please.

pythons007
04-15-2010, 02:00 PM
Oswalt is under contract for $16 million next year. I don't think the Sox would want to take that on for a fifth starter. As for Berkman, yes please.

Well they were inquiring about him last year...for what its worth.

PaleHoser
04-15-2010, 02:04 PM
It's interesting to see how different our franchises are now since 2005. Very stark.

Thank you Kenny Williams.

I just checked their roster and not only are they bad, they're old. I think the price for Berkman will absurdly high. They don't have much else to move and their owner shown he's sentimental about long-time Astros.

doublem23
04-15-2010, 02:13 PM
The Astros are terrible, and I think they're probably the worst team in the National League, but look at the opposing starters they've had to face thus far:


Tim Lincecum
Barry Zito
Matt Cain
J.A. Happ
Jamie Moyer
Roy Halladay
Adam Wainwright
Brad Penny

That's pretty crazy.

3 of the 4 best pitchers in the league in your first 8 games? That is rough.

TheOldRoman
04-15-2010, 02:40 PM
Well they were inquiring about him last year...for what its worth.I had heard that, but it was before they got Peavy. Although Kenny supposedly was given permission to add $15 or so million a year to get Roy Halladay this offseason, I don't know if they would go "all out" and add $16 million next year for Oswalt, considering the money they have in the rotation next year and the fact that he didn't put up world beater numbers last year.

DumpJerry
04-15-2010, 02:52 PM
The Astros are terrible, and I think they're probably the worst team in the National League, but look at the opposing starters they've had to face thus far:


Tim Lincecum
Barry Zito
Matt Cain
J.A. Happ
Jamie Moyer
Roy Halladay
Adam Wainwright
Brad Penny

That's pretty crazy.

3 of the 4 best pitchers in the league in your first 8 games? That is rough.
Wow. Who did they piss off? Good teams would be under .500 after a run of those guys.

JermaineDye05
04-15-2010, 03:03 PM
I wouldn't mind having Roy Oswalt, but from what I hear, the White Sox are one of the teams he does not want to come to.

DSpivack
04-15-2010, 03:08 PM
I wouldn't mind having Roy Oswalt, but from what I hear, the White Sox are one of the teams he does not want to come to.

Eh, if we're going to add a $16 mil a year player, I would much rather go after a hitter.

doublem23
04-15-2010, 03:26 PM
Eh, if we're going to add a $16 mil a year player, I would much rather go after a hitter.

Ditto. The return of El Caballo?

Here's hoping they lose today and I get to see their first win of the season live and in person tomorrow afternoon. :gulp:

cws05champ
04-15-2010, 03:27 PM
Eh, if we're going to add a $16 mil a year player, I would much rather go after a hitter.
This. You don't add a $16M starter when you have 5, especially when he has broken down recently. With Hudson and Torres waiting for a shot there's no point to bringing Oswalt. Not sure Berkman fits either...but give me a 3B with defense OBP and power with any extra $$ available. Teahan can go back to playing all over (DeRosa type role).

delben91
04-15-2010, 06:13 PM
Houston is now 0-8. They have a crappy lineup. Their starting pitching is mediocre and their pen is horrendous.

Berkman is on the shelf - Geoff Blum is starting at 1B. This squad could threaten some of the all time worsts if they make a few firesale trades at the deadline.

Now I haven't seen everyone play yet - and it is early - so we don't know...but based on what we do know, is there a worse team in MLB than Houston? I think some of the traditional worsts (Pittsburh, KC and Baltimore) look better than the Stros.

Thoughts?

I don't know, I've spent the past two weeks in Baltimore for work, and the O's are finding ways to lose. So, they have better (and younger) talent than the Astros, but that's the kind of thing that can get in a young player's head of "here we go again."

BadBobbyJenks
04-15-2010, 06:25 PM
Baltimore doesn't blow a couple of saves and they are not even in the discussion with Houston. At least they have a young lineup with talented pitchers breaking in this year. They will be a team you dont want to deal with in the 2nd half.

pythons007
04-15-2010, 06:27 PM
Well this thread can go to rest because the losing streak is OVA!

Foulke You
04-15-2010, 06:41 PM
This. You don't add a $16M starter when you have 5, especially when he has broken down recently. With Hudson and Torres waiting for a shot there's no point to bringing Oswalt.
I agree with your statement. The only way bringing in Oswalt would make sense is if you traded Floyd or Danks for an impact hitter. I still don't think I would do that though considering Floyd and Danks are relatively cheap and still young. I feel that Oswalt is too fragile and his best years are behind him. Considering his price tag, it would be a huge gamble. As far as Berkman, he really only fits as a DH or 1B and then someone from the Pierre, Jones, Kotsay mix will be taking a seat.

I think it is far too early to look at the Astros as trade partners. We don't even know what our needs are yet and the Astros have a history of starting poorly early and turning it on after June.

VMSNS
04-15-2010, 10:31 PM
I wouldn't mind having Roy Oswalt, but from what I hear, the White Sox are one of the teams he does not want to come to.

Yep. There were rumors of him coming here at the trade deadline last season, but those were quickly dosed when he basically said that he never ever wants to play for the Sox.

GoGoCrede
04-15-2010, 10:32 PM
Yep. There were rumors of him coming here at the trade deadline last season, but those were quickly dosed when he basically said that he never ever wants to play for the Sox.

Was there a reason given?

Brian26
04-15-2010, 10:33 PM
Yep. There were rumors of him coming here at the trade deadline last season, but those were quickly dosed when he basically said that he never ever wants to play for the Sox.

I believe he dispelled those rumors over the winter. He never said that and was never in fact asked about the Sox.

Tragg
04-15-2010, 10:35 PM
Paying a pile of money to Oswalt would be overkill. We have a couple of good young pitchers in AAA and have far bigger holes elsewhere.

konerko 14
04-15-2010, 10:37 PM
we don't really need Oswalt, our rotation is great

DirtySox
04-15-2010, 10:39 PM
Paying a pile of money to Oswalt would be overkill. We have a couple of good young pitchers in AAA and have far bigger holes elsewhere.

Agreed that we don't need to acquire another pitcher. But to say we have a couple of good young pitchers in AAA is wrong. The only good starting pitching prospect in this system is Dan Hudson. There is really nothing else worth nothing.

Britt Burns
04-16-2010, 12:01 AM
I'd love to have Berkman. He had a lousy year last season and still posted a .907 OBS--a huge upgrade over Kotsay/Jones at DH, to say the least. I bet Houston will want the world in return though...

russ99
04-16-2010, 01:09 AM
Who would be some players that could be liberated from the Astros that would help the Sox?

Berkman for DH/PH/backup 1B?
Oswalt for 5th/6th starter/insurance?

People have been trying to drum up trades for Oswalt, Berkman and Lee for a few years now.

Truth is, they're not going anywhere. All three have no-trade protection and all three want to stay in Houston. Oswalt and Berkman have made some noise about retiring after the next year or two when their contracts are up.

As for those that call for the Astros to do a gut rebuilding, that won't happen. Here's why:

1) In order to rebuild you need to rebuild with something. The Astros have a few nice prospects, but only a few, and they're in the mid-low minors. Rushing them would be foolhardy, and there really isn't anyone there that can fill a big league job, even to a 90's Sox "Kids can Play" level.

Trading a declining Berkman and Oswalt for a few lower echelon solid prospects won't get them there either, they need to rebuild through the draft. Face it, teams won't be trading a guy like Buchholz for any of them.

The guy in charge of drafting for the Astros has a good plan and he's sticking with it. They may need a few more years, but they will revitalize the farm system.

2) The owner knows fully well that they'll have the worst record in the majors, and no one will come to games if they go the gut-rebuild route. That's why they've been active in mid-level free agency, to get an exciting enough team to keep the people coming in, and play competitive at times.

3) Brad Mills is a new manager, give him a month or two to see if he can turn things around. They have some decent arms in the rotation and Berkman back would help the offense. Not saying a .500 team here, but better than the Pirates.

4) The were 0-8 vs. St. Louis, Philadelphia and the Giants facing all their best pitchers (Halliday, Lincecum, Wainright, etc.) I doubt they'll be that poor against the lesser NL teams. And hey, they get to play the Cubs this weekend. :D:

khan
04-16-2010, 01:38 PM
I think it is far too early to look at the Astros as trade partners. We don't even know what our needs are yet and the Astros have a history of starting poorly early and turning it on after June.

Ummmm.....

1. Have you seen the SOX's team BA/OBP/SLG%/runs scored? This team sucks a horse's ass offensively. If a fan can't see this, then they're not really paying attention. [Hell, even a cub fan could see this.]

2. The SOX have an inferior team OPS to many NL teams that GIVE AWAY outs by having the pitcher hopelessly flail away at pitches. It was this way last season, WITH Thome and Dye. With Jonesay, this trend has worsened, I'm afraid.

3. Berkman or Lee would do wonders to help out this offense, and BY EXTENSION, this pitching staff. An actual DH-type that can, you know, HIT.

4. KW had better do something EARLY, rather than wait for the inevitable decline of an overworked bullpen in the second half of this season. This, due to an inordinate amount of innings pitched under duress, because the offense can't do jack or **** for far too often.

5. Wasting what LOOKS LIKE a good-to-great pitching staff [anytime you want to kick it into gear, Jake] by having a craptacular offense would be a tragedy.

khan
04-16-2010, 01:45 PM
People have been trying to drum up trades for Oswalt, Berkman and Lee for a few years now.

Truth is, they're not going anywhere. All three have no-trade protection and all three want to stay in Houston. Oswalt and Berkman have made some noise about retiring after the next year or two when their contracts are up.

I can agree about Lee not going anywhere this season. If memory serves, he was just re-signed to an obese contract that got their previous GM fired.

I can also agree about Oswalt not going anywhere this season, due to the fact that he's signed through NEXT season, and at an obese dollar amount.

However, Berkman's contract is up at the end of this season. As such, he could be a rental for a few months, and could easily re-sign back in Houston, should he so desire. Because of this, I wouldn't be surprised if he were moved this season.

I also have heard the same thing about Berkman and Oswalt wanting to retire in Houston. However, I don't get the sense that these two guys are completely finished-yet. Of course, I could just be projecting wishful thinking, given that I see Berkman as EXACTLY what the SOX's lineup needs.

Tragg
04-16-2010, 03:01 PM
The only way the Astros give away Lee is if they basically give him away and take back salary. He just isn't that productive.

Same with Konerko for us. At his salary, he's just not that productive to warrant any legitimate talent coming our way.

WhiteSox5187
04-16-2010, 04:51 PM
They're losing again today, I really wonder if they can beat a good AAA team let alone major league teams.

Foulke You
04-16-2010, 05:20 PM
Ummmm.....

1. Have you seen the SOX's team BA/OBP/SLG%/runs scored? This team sucks a horse's ass offensively. If a fan can't see this, then they're not really paying attention. [Hell, even a cub fan could see this.]

2. The SOX have an inferior team OPS to many NL teams that GIVE AWAY outs by having the pitcher hopelessly flail away at pitches. It was this way last season, WITH Thome and Dye. With Jonesay, this trend has worsened, I'm afraid.

3. Berkman or Lee would do wonders to help out this offense, and BY EXTENSION, this pitching staff. An actual DH-type that can, you know, HIT.

4. KW had better do something EARLY, rather than wait for the inevitable decline of an overworked bullpen in the second half of this season. This, due to an inordinate amount of innings pitched under duress, because the offense can't do jack or **** for far too often.

5. Wasting what LOOKS LIKE a good-to-great pitching staff [anytime you want to kick it into gear, Jake] by having a craptacular offense would be a tragedy.
I do agree that the offense looks like a weakness, I'm not blind to that but it is best to wait at least 4 to 8 weeks to see what you have before making rash judgments about certain positions on the diamond. There are also potential injuries to take into account that could create a need elsewhere. It is just too early to be looking for a blockbuster trade, in my opinion.

Andruw Jones has looked pretty good so far. It is a small sample size but to panic after 10 games and trade your farm system for an aging Lance Berkman in the 3rd week of the season might not net you any sizable offensive gain over Andruw Jones. KW will have a better idea of what we have about 4 to 6 weeks from now and can make a trade to improve the offense then should it be necessary.

russ99
04-17-2010, 01:52 AM
The only way the Astros give away Lee is if they basically give him away and take back salary. He just isn't that productive.

Same with Konerko for us. At his salary, he's just not that productive to warrant any legitimate talent coming our way.

Hmm...

2007: .303/.354/.528 - 32hr, 119rbi
2008: .314/.368/.569 - 28hr, 100rbi
2009: .300/.343/.489 - 26hr, 102rbi

Looks pretty productive to me. But again, El Caballo would need to waive his NTC and be open to a trade, the other team would have to take on a lot of salary, and give up prospects, so the chances are pretty slim.


However, Berkman's contract is up at the end of this season. As such, he could be a rental for a few months, and could easily re-sign back in Houston, should he so desire. Because of this, I wouldn't be surprised if he were moved this season.

Berkman has an option for next year. It's pretty steep ($15M), but the Astros are in no hurry to move him.

They're losing again today, I really wonder if they can beat a good AAA team let alone major league teams.

Paulino (their 5th starter) went vs. the Cubs today. Let's see how Oswalt, Wandy, Myers and Norris do with and kind of offense behind them... And Berkman's starting his rehab assignment.

doublem23
04-17-2010, 02:28 AM
As long as Ozzie's here, you can cross Carlos Lee off your wish list.

Nellie_Fox
04-17-2010, 03:05 AM
As long as Ozzie's here, you can cross Carlos Lee off your wish list.
El Caballo earned his way out of town.

TheOldRoman
04-17-2010, 03:22 AM
El Caballo earned his way out of town."No way! LEE was clutch on the SOX. hehehe"

Konerko05
04-17-2010, 06:58 AM
El Caballo earned his way out of town.

He would easily be the best hitter on this team.

Quentin has potential to be better, but I have to see it for more than one season.

doublem23
04-17-2010, 01:59 PM
El Caballo earned his way out of town.

I'm not taking sides in the whole debate, I'm just saying, even if Carlos Lee was exactly what the Sox needed and the Astros' asking price was very reasonable, there would still be less than a 0% chance he rejoins the Sox as long as Ozzie is around. He's pretty good at burning bridges. :cool:

doublem23
04-17-2010, 02:11 PM
Have the Astros-Cubs game on in the background until the Bulls & Sox play later, but the HR that Towles just hit in the 5th inning is Houston's THIRD home run of the season.

These guys really, really suck.

JB98
04-17-2010, 02:53 PM
Have the Astros-Cubs game on in the background until the Bulls & Sox play later, but the HR that Towles just hit in the 5th inning is Houston's THIRD home run of the season.

These guys really, really suck.

Yeah, it's going to be a long year in Houston. In a way, I'm envious that the Cubs get to play the Astros and Pirates so much.

Then again, the Sox are struggling with the Indians. Nevertheless, the Astros really, really suck.

khan
04-17-2010, 04:35 PM
Berkman has an option for next year. It's pretty steep ($15M), but the Astros are in no hurry to move him.

I didn't know about the option. However, I see that as yet ANOTHER incentive for Houston to move him, in actuality. I can't envision ANYONE paying him $15M, given his age and recent injury history. At the same time, I don't think that Houston wants to harm their relationship with one of their homegrown heroes by canceling the $15M option.

By trading/lending him away to another team for a few months, Houston can then put the burden of picking up the obese option on another front office, which any SANE GM would be adverse to doing. Houston could then re-sign him at a more reasonable rate for 2011, without having the blame for canceling the option.

In sum, everybody wins:

The SOX get the bat they need to win the World Series.
Houston gets a warm body or two for their minor leagues, while "erasing" the balance of his $14.9M in 2010, AND the profligate $15M option for 2011.
Berkman gets to retire in Houston, after winning a ring.


Of course, Berkman is a 10/5 man, so he could easily scupper the works by refusing a trade here, but the chance to win has got to be worth SOMETHING to him. [It was for Thome, after all...] Berkman's got to know that Houston are YEARS away from contending, while the rotation here gives him a viable shot.

russ99
04-17-2010, 05:09 PM
Have the Astros-Cubs game on in the background until the Bulls & Sox play later, but the HR that Towles just hit in the 5th inning is Houston's THIRD home run of the season.

These guys really, really suck.

They suck enough to beat the Cubs... :D:

Cmon guys, make it 2 of 3 tomorrow.

russ99
04-17-2010, 05:10 PM
I didn't know about the option. However, I see that as yet ANOTHER incentive for Houston to move him, in actuality. I can't envision ANYONE paying him $15M, given his age and recent injury history. At the same time, I don't think that Houston wants to harm their relationship with one of their homegrown heroes by canceling the $15M option.

By trading/lending him away to another team for a few months, Houston can then put the burden of picking up the obese option on another front office, which any SANE GM would be adverse to doing. Houston could then re-sign him at a more reasonable rate for 2011, without having the blame for canceling the option.

In sum, everybody wins:

The SOX get the bat they need to win the World Series.
Houston gets a warm body or two for their minor leagues, while "erasing" the balance of his $14.9M in 2010, AND the profligate $15M option for 2011.
Berkman gets to retire in Houston, after winning a ring.


Of course, Berkman is a 10/5 man, so he could easily scupper the works by refusing a trade here, but the chance to win has got to be worth SOMETHING to him. [It was for Thome, after all...] Berkman's got to know that Houston are YEARS away from contending, while the rotation here gives him a viable shot.

Who would you see the Sox giving up in such a deal? They have outfielders and need infielders and as usual, pitching.

khan
04-17-2010, 06:10 PM
Who would you see the Sox giving up in such a deal? They have outfielders and need infielders and as usual, pitching.

The bigger part of the deal for Houston would be the money that the SOX would pick up. Somewhere in the range of $7-8M saved [depending on when the trade occurred] would be a big help to Houston for 2010. For 2011, the $15M option would also be saved, where Houston could perhaps re-sign Berkman somewhere closer to $7-10M, depending on his health and performance this season.

The warm bodies being sent to Houston in actuality would be less important than the ~$15M in salary they'd save between 2010 salary and 2011's option. And again, the sooner Houston descends into ****tsville, the more eager they will become to shed salary.

russ99
04-17-2010, 06:37 PM
The bigger part of the deal for Houston would be the money that the SOX would pick up. Somewhere in the range of $7-8M saved [depending on when the trade occurred] would be a big help to Houston for 2010. For 2011, the $15M option would also be saved, where Houston could perhaps re-sign Berkman somewhere closer to $7-10M, depending on his health and performance this season.

The warm bodies being sent to Houston in actuality would be less important than the ~$15M in salary they'd save between 2010 salary and 2011's option. And again, the sooner Houston descends into ****tsville, the more eager they will become to shed salary.

Nope. No sale. The Astros have zero interest in moving guys just to cut payroll. They cut payroll already this offseason.

They can just waive the option after the season and save the same payroll and get compensation picks. No prospects, no Berkman. Goes double for Oswalt.

Just because they have a below-average team this year is no reason to deal away their best assets for nothing

khan
04-17-2010, 07:52 PM
Nope. No sale. The Astros have zero interest in moving guys just to cut payroll. They cut payroll already this offseason.

They can just waive the option after the season and save the same payroll and get compensation picks. No prospects, no Berkman. Goes double for Oswalt.
1. Who gives a **** about Oswalt? He has no value to the SOX right now, and the SOX are pretty much the only team in MLB I care about.

2. To get the compensation, they'd have to:
a) Buy his option out @ $2M;
b) [Perhaps] Offer him arbitration [I will admit I'm not 100% sure on this];
c) He'd have to refuse, which would mean he wouldn't be retiring with Houston, or at a minimum, playing elsewhere for 2011.

3. Houston would end up with no Berkman, and 2 compensation picks; Berkman would end up signing elsewhere. [This sounds a lot more of a "lose-lose" scenario for Houston and for Berkman.]

4. IF Berkman did go through that process, Houston has much more risk exposure to arb and/or a buyout, and much LESS savings in salaries.

Just because they have a below-average team this year is no reason to deal away their best assets for nothing

And you very well might be correct. But they have much WORSE than a below-average team right now. And I think you overrate Berkman's desire to retire in Houston over his desire to win a ring. We will see, but here's hoping KW can swing something. And SOON, because this offense sucks a horse's ass.

ComiskeyBrewer
04-18-2010, 01:05 AM
They suck enough to beat the Cubs... :D:

Cmon guys, make it 2 of 3 tomorrow.

I'll be at the game tomorrow (fiance is a cubs fan.) Should be fun if they do beat em.