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View Full Version : Orlando Hudson: Racism is why Dye isn't signed yet


Rockabilly
04-13-2010, 12:09 PM
According to Orlando Hudson

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-dyehudson041210

what a bunch of crock

soltrain21
04-13-2010, 12:12 PM
Dye has had like 3 or 4 offers, hasn't he? He is the one being picky and turning them all down.

MarkZ35
04-13-2010, 12:20 PM
Gosh. He had offers. He was being greedy. That is not racism.

TheOldRoman
04-13-2010, 12:20 PM
I was going to start this thread, but I figured it would get closed shortly. Since you opened it, here goes!

Dye has been horrendous defensively for the past two years at the very least. He is 36, at an age where guys start declining more steeply sans steroids. His second half was horrible last year. While I think it was due mostly to him pouting about not having a contract (see 2007), you can't expect every GM to completely overlook a guy in his mid-30s falling off the face of the earth. He could have signed for decent money earlier in the offseason, but he held out. As the article points out, teams are focusing on defense more. He squashed his market by declaring that he would "maybe" play 1B a few times a week, but was a still full time OF and refused to DH. If he would have understood his limitations he would have been signed as a DH by now. The article asks why wasn't he offered the $11 million he made last year. Becuase that is no longer the market value for old sluggers. Why did Jim Thome have to sign for something like $2 million? Is there a bias against country-folk, too?

As for the guys mentioned who got contracts, they are all considerably younger, more versitile defensively, and signed early. There is only so much money to go around. You snooze you lose. Gary Sheffield isn't signed because a) he is a piece of ****, and b) teams generally don't want to employ unrepenting outed roiders unless they are really good. Kenny Lofton was always an ass, and he is now 42. Teams are moving away from signing old players. Get used to it.

DumpJerry
04-13-2010, 12:22 PM
Funny they should mention the Cubs' contract with Nady as an example of someone who is lesser than Dye getting decent money. Dye turned the Cubs offer down so they took the offer to Nady and he accepted the offer Dye rejected. But that little detail would put a crimp in Hudson's theory.

guillensdisciple
04-13-2010, 12:58 PM
Sigh... I am just going to give a :rolleyes: and move on.

GoGoCrede
04-13-2010, 01:09 PM
Oh, shut up, Hudson. Dye's had a few offers. And Gary Sheffield doesn't have a job because he's old and a jerk.

gobears1987
04-13-2010, 01:10 PM
Sigh... I am just going to give a :rolleyes: and move on.
ditto

Dye had contracts and turned them down. It's his own fault. I loved Dye on the South Side, but he made it clear last year he was washed up.

spawn
04-13-2010, 01:13 PM
Boy, I can'twait to hear Hudson's reaction when Gary Sheffield isn't voted into the HOF on the first ballot.

bridgeportcopper
04-13-2010, 01:30 PM
As I watched yesterday's opener at Target Field it occurred to me, it's hard to hate these Twins. Mauer is so likeable. Same with Morneau, I would love these guys if they played for the Sox. Their uniforms aren't ugly, I really like that tri-colored "TC" catcher's helmet Mauer wears. Punto, Span, Kubel are grinders. The stadium situation is settled, no more Metrodome bounces! But now here it comes! O-Dog you have given me a reason to hate the Twins! When in doubt, throw out the race card! Thank You!

P.S. Oh yeah, I will still hate Matthew Lecroix til the end of the world! Don't know why, just will!

hi im skot
04-13-2010, 01:34 PM
As I watched yesterday's opener at Target Field it occurred to me, it's hard to hate these Twins. Mauer is so likeable. Same with Morneau, I would love these guys if they played for the Sox. Their uniforms aren't ugly, I really like that tri-colored "TC" catcher's helmet Mauer wears. Punto, Span, Kubel are grinders. The stadium situation is settled, no more Metrodome bounces! But now here it comes! O-Dog you have given me a reason to hate the Twins! When in doubt, throw out the race card! Thank You!

P.S. Oh yeah, I will still hate Matthew Lecroix til the end of the world! Don't know why, just will!

If you can't find a way to hate Nick Punto, I don't know what to tell you.

Carolina Kenny
04-13-2010, 01:34 PM
Someone should tell Orlando to watch the Hank Greenberg story.

BadBobbyJenks
04-13-2010, 01:46 PM
If you can't find a way to hate Nick Punto, I don't know what to tell you.

Nick Punto is the Twin I hate most.

bridgeportcopper
04-13-2010, 01:47 PM
If you can't find a way to hate Nick Punto, I don't know what to tell you.
grindy!!!! can't do it.

GoGoCrede
04-13-2010, 01:48 PM
Nick Punto is the Twin I hate most.

Nathan is mine because of how whiny he got after the Blackout game.

I really like Mijares for some inexplicable reason. Blackburn, too.

JB98
04-13-2010, 01:48 PM
The White Sox have a black GM. Thus, I'm quite confident race had nothing to do with Kenny's decision not to bring Jermaine Dye back. It was a baseball decision, and other teams are seeing the same things that Kenny saw with Dye: An aging player who is clearly in decline, who wanted more money than he is worth in this market, who wanted a guaranteed starting job in the outfield.

Dye did a lot of good things, both on and off the field, during his time with the White Sox. Much respect to him for that. But he's sitting at home right now because of the choices he made, not because of racism.

Orlando Hudson needs to shut the hell up.

BadBobbyJenks
04-13-2010, 01:49 PM
Nathan is mine because of how whiny he got after the Blackout game.

I really like Mijares for some inexplicable reason. Blackburn, too.

There is only so many broken bat bloopers for hits in big situations I can take before I loathe someone.

GoGoCrede
04-13-2010, 01:50 PM
There is only so many broken bat bloopers for hits in big situations I can take before I loathe someone.

I was about to type in Gomez for my most hated player, then remembered that his ass is out of our division now. :smile:

VMSNS
04-13-2010, 01:53 PM
Hudson is out of his mind. His "theory" is completely preposterous. Dye isn't signed because...

1) He's 36
2) He plays terrible defense
3) He's slow
4) Offensively, he fell off the map last season
5) He won't DH
6) He wants to play full-time in the OF (refuses to be a 4th OF)
7) He wants to get paid a lot of money
8) He wants to play for a contender
9) He's been running his mouth to the media
10) He has a skewed sense of self-entitlement

Dye got offers from the Cubs, Nationals, Toronto, and (I believe) Tampa Bay. It's Dye's fault he isn't signed. Racism has nothing to do with it.

TheOldRoman
04-13-2010, 01:56 PM
If you can't find a way to hate Nick Punto, I don't know what to tell you.:D:
I will add Morneau, too. He is obsessed with the Sox, always bitching how they are the evil big market team, saying knocking the Sox out of the playoff race would be as good as going to the playoffs himself and so forth.

Frontman
04-13-2010, 01:58 PM
The White Sox have a black GM. Thus, I'm quite confident race had nothing to do with Kenny's decision not to bring Jermaine Dye back. It was a baseball decision, and other teams are seeing the same things that Kenny saw with Dye: An aging player who is clearly in decline, who wanted more money than he is worth in this market, who wanted a guaranteed starting job in the outfield.

Dye did a lot of good things, both on and off the field, during his time with the White Sox. Much respect to him for that. But he's sitting at home right now because of the choices he made, not because of racism.

Orlando Hudson needs to shut the hell up.

And it was Dye's right to turn down offers. If he feels he's worth more than teams are offering; he's got every right to sit and wait. A key injury later in the season to a team might mean he makes the money he was looking for.

I both love and regret seeing this sort of stuff. Love it because a player looks foolish (or full of themselves.)

I regret it because it causes situations where REAL issues happen to be overlooked.

The Immigrant
04-13-2010, 02:07 PM
:D:
I will add Morneau, too. He is obsessed with the Sox, always bitching how they are the evil big market team, saying knocking the Sox out of the playoff race would be as good as going to the playoffs himself and so forth.

He's at the top of my list, for this very reason. It will be interesting to see if they keep this attitude now that their scrappy, grindy little ballclub has a $100MM payroll.

SI1020
04-13-2010, 02:35 PM
If you can't find a way to hate Nick Punto, I don't know what to tell you. Beat me to it.

DSpivack
04-13-2010, 02:45 PM
And it was Dye's right to turn down offers. If he feels he's worth more than teams are offering; he's got every right to sit and wait. A key injury later in the season to a team might mean he makes the money he was looking for.

I both love and regret seeing this sort of stuff. Love it because a player looks foolish (or full of themselves.)

I regret it because it causes situations where REAL issues happen to be overlooked.

I can't blame Dye for Hudson being ignorant.

Collusion is a real possibility, and I've read mentions that the MLBPA might even file an injunction against the league in that realm. Yes, baseball does have an ugly history of racism, but this is a bit silly.

Uncle_Patrick
04-13-2010, 03:36 PM
Phil Rogers responds to the Yahoo article:

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/04/racism-not-the-problem-for-dye.html

The Immigrant
04-13-2010, 03:53 PM
Having now actually read Hudson's comments, it sounds to me like he's talking about collusion rather than racism.

TDog
04-13-2010, 04:24 PM
Someone should tell Orlando to watch the Hank Greenberg story.

You mean the only man to have 100 RBIs at the All-Star break not to make his league's All-Star team?

slavko
04-13-2010, 04:33 PM
This thread is a waste of bandwidth.

Irishsox1
04-13-2010, 04:40 PM
Why is it that MLB baseball HAS to do anything for the black American community to generate interest in baseball? The media and MLB acts like there is something is wrong with the game or there is an undercurrent of racism and that is why black American's are staying away from baseball. It's as if they have no idea who Michael Jordan was and what the massive effect he had on the black American community towards the popularity of basketball was.

As for Orlando Hudson, it's not racism, if anything it's age discrimination. And is professional baseball, it's totally acceptable.

slavko
04-13-2010, 04:41 PM
You mean the only man to have 100 RBIs at the All-Star break not to make his league's All-Star team?

Got me curious enough to look him up. 1935. The other racism was wide and deep in the good old US of A right about then. Amazing career stats for a power guy. More walks than strikeouts.

konerko 14
04-13-2010, 04:43 PM
How is it racism? Dye is being too picky, he has gotten offers, he just wants too much, and Gary Sheffield is way past his prime

Boondock Saint
04-13-2010, 04:55 PM
I wish someone would tell the people who cry racism about such petty and clearly non-racist things to shut the hell up. It's embarrassing.

BadBobbyJenks
04-13-2010, 05:13 PM
I wish someone would tell the people who cry racism about such petty and clearly non-racist things to shut the hell up. It's embarrassing.

That's racist.

veeter
04-13-2010, 05:14 PM
If you can't find a way to hate Nick Punto, I don't know what to tell you.Exactly. He's the Phil McConkey of baseball.

Medford Bobby
04-13-2010, 05:41 PM
This collusion talk is going to explode soon with the MLBPA......:(:

wassagstdu
04-13-2010, 06:16 PM
Mauer is so likeable. Same with Morneau, I would love these guys if they played for the Sox.

I can't disagree with that statement, but I really dislike Morneau. He is too much like AJ but without the sense of humor. But if he played for the Sox, I would love him like AJ.

soltrain21
04-13-2010, 06:30 PM
I can't disagree with that statement, but I really dislike Morneau. He is too much like AJ but without the sense of humor. But if he played for the Sox, I would love him like AJ.

U-PMJodZAI8

TDog
04-13-2010, 07:26 PM
The White Sox have a black GM. Thus, I'm quite confident race had nothing to do with Kenny's decision not to bring Jermaine Dye back. ...

Pointing this out reminds me of the time I was driving into Chicago back in 2002 or there abouts and listening to a radio show where people were calling in about the White Sox. One caller complained that Kenny Williams and then-manager Jerry Manuel were incompetent in their jobs and "Chicago's answer to Amos and Andy." The host got rid of the guy fairly quickly without cutting him off and calmly directed him to take off his hood the next time he calls.

There is plenty of racism out there, but racism has nothing to do with Jermaine Dye not being re-signed by the White Sox.

Twins_Morneau
04-13-2010, 09:36 PM
Nick Punto is the Twin I hate most.

Trust me you guys can't hate him as much as Twins fans do.. Things especially took off when he got that extension. Things have settled down though since his 3-33 hitting streaks don't jump out as much with this powerful lineup.

AS for O-Hud, the guy apparently like to run his mouth and it would be better if he shut it. He's probably bitter he didn't command what he thought he would as a free agent. That said I hope he continues to hit.:tongue:

soxinem1
04-13-2010, 11:02 PM
I wonder if it is part of MIN philosophy to teach their players to make stupid off-the-wall comments?

Especially since they didn't bring back Thome for even less $$$$, how can this dumbass with no knowledge of White Sox (or any other team for that matter) operations qualify himself to make such classless accusations?

Grow up, Mr. Range-less 2B who got benched for Ronnie Belliard!!

hi im skot
04-13-2010, 11:16 PM
Trust me you guys can't hate him as much as Twins fans do.. Things especially took off when he got that extension. Things have settled down though since his 3-33 hitting streaks don't jump out as much with this powerful lineup.

AS for O-Hud, the guy apparently like to run his mouth and it would be better if he shut it. He's probably bitter he didn't command what he thought he would as a free agent. That said I hope he continues to hit.:tongue:

:rolleyes:

Twins_Morneau
04-13-2010, 11:46 PM
:rolleyes:

:scratch:

DSpivack
04-13-2010, 11:52 PM
:scratch:

Those kind of nicknames get a bad rap around here; Brandon McCarthy's "B-Mac" a few years ago automatically would get turned into "Nails on a chalkboard" when you typed it out. Although I do think M-Bue would be funny.

BadBobbyJenks
04-13-2010, 11:55 PM
:scratch:

Those type of nicknames drive a lot of posters here crazy.

I usually dont mind, but O-Hud is pretty terrible. I thought it was O-Dog.

DumpJerry
04-14-2010, 12:02 AM
:hawk
Speaking of Twins' players. Let me tell you I felt very empty last weekend calling those games against the Twins without Carlos Gomez being on the field. A fine young man Carlos is, I tell you. Great talent, great potential, looks good in a uniform.....dagumit, I miss the young man!

Rohan
04-14-2010, 12:06 AM
Hudson's going to be eating his words in the next two days, i guarantee it...

Nellie_Fox
04-14-2010, 01:43 AM
This collusion talk is going to explode soon with the MLBPA......:(:They can "talk" collusion all they want. If Dye and Sheffield are the best evidence they've got, they're going nowhere. Dye won't DH and has turned down better offers (apparently) than I thought he'd get with his seriously declining defensive skills and horrible, horrible second half. Sheffield is almost FORTY-TWO FREAKING YEARS OLD! Nobody gets much of an offer at that age.

And the economy has been in the crapper. Teams can't risk too much with an uncertain attendance situation facing them. I simply don't believe there is collusion; there is a market correction.

DSpivack
04-14-2010, 01:43 AM
:hawk
Speaking of Twins' players. Let me tell you I felt very empty last weekend calling those games against the Twins without Carlos Gomez being on the field. A fine young man Carlos is, I tell you. Great talent, great potential, looks good in a uniform.....dagumit, I miss the young man!

:rolling:

palehozenychicty
04-14-2010, 07:31 AM
I think now I understand a little better why Hudson didn't play much with the Dodgers last year at season's end, and few teams shelled out money for his services these past two winters.

Besides the injuries, he had a reputation as a chatterbox. Jimmy Rollins has the same problem from time to time, but he's won big games.

We all loved Dye here, but his time had come.

g0g0
04-14-2010, 08:34 AM
Racism is a great default excuse for things. Give me a break, the man has had offers. I know he's hit well, but it's not like he's 25 or anything.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 08:37 AM
Whether or not Hudson hit the mark here -- and he was wildly off -- it's clear that there's a growing racial tension in baseball regarding a lack of African-American ballplayers.

Tragg
04-14-2010, 08:44 AM
Whether or not Hudson hit the mark here -- and he was wildly off -- it's clear that there's a growing racial tension in baseball regarding a lack of African-American ballplayers.
A lot of that is a function of college baseball and the ridiculous 11.5 scholarship limit.
The private schools, who are damn good in the sport, have to find players who can pay; and it's not that easy on the public schools either, unless virtually everyone can go to school for free (like in Louisiana -the schollie program is a joke).

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 08:47 AM
A lot of that is a function of college baseball and the ridiculous 11.5 scholarship limit.
The private schools, who are damn good in the sport, have to find players who can pay; and it's not that easy on the public schools either, unless virtually everyone can go to school for free (like in Louisiana -the schollie program is a joke).
Well, I think it's a function of many things -- we'll see how the RBI program works in remedying the problem. I doubt it will.

g0g0
04-14-2010, 09:09 AM
Whether or not Hudson hit the mark here -- and he was wildly off -- it's clear that there's a growing racial tension in baseball regarding a lack of African-American ballplayers.

This has been going on for a while. African-Americans just aren't into baseball anymore as much as basketball. I don't think this is a big deal.

Slappy
04-14-2010, 10:02 AM
:hawk
Speaking of Twins' players. Let me tell you I felt very empty last weekend calling those games against the Twins without Carlos Gomez being on the field. A fine young man Carlos is, I tell you. Great talent, great potential, looks good in a uniform.....dagumit, I miss the young man!

lol

During the Indians series I noticed that Hawk was raving about Asdrubal Cabrera an awful lot, too. I wonder if he is going to replace Carlos in that role.

I have no idea if race is playing a role in this, although I do think that Dye's defense is really being undervalued. He has a pretty accurate arm, at least, and comparing him to TCQ, I'd take Dye's D over TCQ's. Then, their bats aren't too far off either, save for his famous second half slump(s).

I could see not wanting to play for the Cubs, and more than almost anyone, I'd hate to watch him in a Cub uniform so I'm glad he turned it down. But IIRC, he turned down at least one other 3 mil offer, and if he seriously wants to play, should have just taken it, I think.

kitekrazy
04-14-2010, 10:12 AM
This has been going on for a while. African-Americans just aren't into baseball anymore as much as basketball. I don't think this is a big deal.

It seems Latin people are more into baseball. Scouts put a lot of attention of what's going on South of the border.

kitekrazy
04-14-2010, 10:20 AM
They can "talk" collusion all they want. If Dye and Sheffield are the best evidence they've got, they're going nowhere. Dye won't DH and has turned down better offers (apparently) than I thought he'd get with his seriously declining defensive skills and horrible, horrible second half. Sheffield is almost FORTY-TWO FREAKING YEARS OLD! Nobody gets much of an offer at that age.

And the economy has been in the crapper. Teams can't risk too much with an uncertain attendance situation facing them. I simply don't believe there is collusion; there is a market correction.

I thought only GM was dumb enough to remain burdened by unions. I'd still like to see a cap in MLB. It's about the only way for the owners to save themselves from stupid spending.

I think Thome is the only guy that cares to be a DH. Maybe they should ditch the DH.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 10:24 AM
lol

During the Indians series I noticed that Hawk was raving about Asdrubal Cabrera an awful lot, too. I wonder if he is going to replace Carlos in that role.

I have no idea if race is playing a role in this, although I do think that Dye's defense is really being undervalued. He has a pretty accurate arm, at least, and comparing him to TCQ, I'd take Dye's D over TCQ's. Then, their bats aren't too far off either, save for his famous second half slump(s).

I could see not wanting to play for the Cubs, and more than almost anyone, I'd hate to watch him in a Cub uniform so I'm glad he turned it down. But IIRC, he turned down at least one other 3 mil offer, and if he seriously wants to play, should have just taken it, I think.
At least Asdrubal deserves the love.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 10:25 AM
This has been going on for a while. African-Americans just aren't into baseball anymore as much as basketball. I don't think this is a big deal.
That's patently untrue. There are class issues at hand as well.

TheOldRoman
04-14-2010, 10:29 AM
During the Indians series I noticed that Hawk was raving about Asdrubal Cabrera an awful lot, too. I wonder if he is going to replace Carlos in that role.

I have no idea if race is playing a role in this, although I do think that Dye's defense is really being undervalued. He has a pretty accurate arm, at least, and comparing him to TCQ, I'd take Dye's D over TCQ's. Then, their bats aren't too far off either, save for his famous second half slump(s).Cabrera is actually a good player, so Hawk fawning over him wouldn't be that crazy. Maybe he will start comparing him to Roberto Alomar.

As for Dye, he was really really bad. For the past four years I watched a few dozen ocassions of him gingerly jogging after a ball down the line and turning a double intro a triple. He had no range anymore. Also, he was always in poor position to make a throw. A good outfielder will camp under the ball, slightly behind it, so he can step into the catch and have momemtum for the throw. Dye would always end up misjudging the ball and have to step back to catch it, taking away from his throw.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 10:45 AM
Dye's (current) bat and (current) fielding are nowhere near TCQ levels, and I think Quentin sucks on defense.

Dye is just a step-ahead of Adam Dunn on D.

g0g0
04-14-2010, 11:23 AM
That's patently untrue. There are class issues at hand as well.

What are you referring to? The financial costs to play say basketball and baseball?

ewokpelts
04-14-2010, 11:29 AM
That's patently untrue. There are class issues at hand as well.
no. it's about money.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 01:04 PM
What are you referring to? The financial costs to play say basketball and baseball?
That is part of it, yes.

no. it's about money.
Class issues are related to money.

gobears1987
04-14-2010, 01:39 PM
That is part of it, yes.


Class issues are related to money.

Football is far more expensive to play so I think money is not the problem here. The real issue here is interest. If you say it's about money, then explain all of the players from Venezuela, the Dominican Republic, etc. who grew up in poverty and play the game. The reason they played baseball is that there was large interest in the game in their communities. That interest is lacking in African American communities in the US.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Football is far more expensive to play so I think money is not the problem here. The real issue here is interest. If you say it's about money, then explain all of the players from Venezuela, the Dominican Republic, etc. who grew up in poverty and play the game. The reason they played baseball is that there was large interest in the game in their communities. That interest is lacking in African American communities in the US.
...for reasons largely related to money.

Edit: comparing the situations in Venezuela and the Dominican Republic to the US inner-cities is a stretch.

WhiteSox5187
04-14-2010, 01:57 PM
...for reasons largely related to money.

Edit: comparing the situations in Venezuela and the Dominican Republic to the US inner-cities is a stretch.

I'm not so sure I get where you're going, but as Ozzie said the inner cities of Caracas and San Pedro de Marcois are a lot worse in terms of economic realities (and at times violence) than the inner cities in the US.

I really have no clue why there aren't more African-Americans in the big leagues. I think it does have to do with interest, if there were more African-Americans willing to play baseball then they'd be drafted. Teams will always go with the most talented player who will help them win regardless of race. I was watching a game on MLB Network that featured two historically African-American colleges and noticed that in fact, most of the players on both these teams were white. That says something. I used to think that it is the fact that baseball costs a lot of money to play (a bat and a nice glove aren't cheap) but it costs a lot of money to buy all that equiptment in football too. And there isn't a lot of money to go around in Latin America to buy that stuff, but they still play. I really think it's a matter of interest and if people aren't interested in playing the game, then no matter how much money MLB pours into programs like RBI you'll have a shortage of African-Americans in the game. You can't force kids to like the game of baseball.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 01:59 PM
Of course the economic conditions are worse, but there's a huge MLB presence in those places.

Sam Spade
04-14-2010, 02:09 PM
I've got a whole bunch of stuff to say after I retire ~Hudson

Oh great.

gobears1987
04-14-2010, 02:15 PM
Of course the economic conditions are worse, but there's a huge MLB presence in those places.

In other words there is an interest in the game. The fact that baseball flourishes in places where the economic conditions are far worse than America's inner-cities kills the argument that it is class related. It's all about interest. If it weren't for the NBA's popularity in inner-city communities, you'd see far more African-American athletes in baseball than you do today.

Of the 4 major sports leagues in the US, MLB is by far the most diverse due to the international presence of the league.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 02:31 PM
In other words there is an interest in the game. The fact that baseball flourishes in places where the economic conditions are far worse than America's inner-cities kills the argument that it is class related. It's all about interest. If it weren't for the NBA's popularity in inner-city communities, you'd see far more African-American athletes in baseball than you do today.

Of the 4 major sports leagues in the US, MLB is by far the most diverse due to the international presence of the league.
It doesn't kill the argument. There is interest in the game there because it is often the only way to escape the hellish conditions. MLB scouts and pseudo-pedophiles come down and establish themselves, signing children to large-ish contracts with no interest in education or community development.

TheOldRoman
04-14-2010, 02:50 PM
It doesn't kill the argument. There is interest in the game there because it is often the only way to escape the hellish conditions. MLB scouts and pseudo-pedophiles come down and establish themselves, signing children to large-ish contracts with no interest in education or community development....and, here is the point where you derailed the argument and humiliated yourself.

The Dude
04-14-2010, 02:51 PM
I dont have time to read this thread but I know the original article...

Anyone else extremely glad that Hudson didn't become a White Sox player?

doublem23
04-14-2010, 02:55 PM
I dont have time to read this thread but I know the original article...

Anyone else extremely glad that Hudson didn't become a White Sox player?

No room on this team for a Gold Glove winning 2B coming off a .283/.357/.417 season.

Iwritecode
04-14-2010, 03:01 PM
I'm not so sure I get where you're going, but as Ozzie said the inner cities of Caracas and San Pedro de Marcois are a lot worse in terms of economic realities (and at times violence) than the inner cities in the US.

I really have no clue why there aren't more African-Americans in the big leagues. I think it does have to do with interest, if there were more African-Americans willing to play baseball then they'd be drafted. Teams will always go with the most talented player who will help them win regardless of race. I was watching a game on MLB Network that featured two historically African-American colleges and noticed that in fact, most of the players on both these teams were white. That says something. I used to think that it is the fact that baseball costs a lot of money to play (a bat and a nice glove aren't cheap) but it costs a lot of money to buy all that equiptment in football too. And there isn't a lot of money to go around in Latin America to buy that stuff, but they still play. I really think it's a matter of interest and if people aren't interested in playing the game, then no matter how much money MLB pours into programs like RBI you'll have a shortage of African-Americans in the game. You can't force kids to like the game of baseball.

A tennis ball and a broom stick works.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 03:08 PM
...and, here is the point where you derailed the argument and humiliated yourself.
Ok.

thedudeabides
04-14-2010, 03:27 PM
It doesn't kill the argument. There is interest in the game there because it is often the only way to escape the hellish conditions. MLB scouts and pseudo-pedophiles come down and establish themselves, signing children to large-ish contracts with no interest in education or community development.

:o: Are you kidding? Classy.

Nellie_Fox
04-14-2010, 03:30 PM
A tennis ball and a broom stick works.I know this will sound like a typical "in my day...:geezer:" statement, but I am an early baby boomer. Kids played baseball all over, all the time, in the near west suburbs. Our bats were often held together with nails, screws, and electrical tape, the ball was usually taped up, and many of our gloves were 1930-40's hand-me-down models. I actually think it made me a much better defensive player, because when I could finally afford to buy a glove it made catching the ball simple compared to those pancake mitts I had learned with.

You don't have to have uniforms, new equipment, groomed fields and officials to play baseball. In fact, I think having too many adults involved ruins the game.

doublem23
04-14-2010, 03:54 PM
I know this will sound like a typical "in my day...:geezer:" statement, but I am an early baby boomer. Kids played baseball all over, all the time, in the near west suburbs. Our bats were often held together with nails, screws, and electrical tape, the ball was usually taped up, and many of our gloves were 1930-40's hand-me-down models. I actually think it made me a much better defensive player, because when I could finally afford to buy a glove it made catching the ball simple compared to those pancake mitts I had learned with.

You don't have to have uniforms, new equipment, groomed fields and officials to play baseball. In fact, I think having too many adults involved ruins the game.

If you let your kid play unsupervised today with a piece of wood that has a nail sticking out of it, you'd be getting a visit from your local, friendly DCFS agent.

TDog
04-14-2010, 04:01 PM
I know this will sound like a typical "in my day...:geezer:" statement, but I am an early baby boomer. Kids played baseball all over, all the time, in the near west suburbs. Our bats were often held together with nails, screws, and electrical tape, the ball was usually taped up, and many of our gloves were 1930-40's hand-me-down models. I actually think it made me a much better defensive player, because when I could finally afford to buy a glove it made catching the ball simple compared to those pancake mitts I had learned with.

You don't have to have uniforms, new equipment, groomed fields and officials to play baseball. In fact, I think having too many adults involved ruins the game.

I agree with every word (although I never learned to judge a flyball with my old Ted Williams-model glove). The last time I was in Munster, I used to drive past places where we used to play baseball every day during the summer. The church at White Oak and Fran-Lin expanded over the baseball field next to it. Other things, have gone in over other baseball fields, and even when I was a teenager, we were chased off fields when organized leagues needed them to practice.

I'm not sure what came first, the community usurping the baseball fields where a bunch of kids could go out and play or kids not playing baseball.

Johnny Mostil
04-14-2010, 04:13 PM
I agree with every word (although I never learned to judge a flyball with my old Ted Williams-model glove). The last time I was in Munster, I used to drive past places where we used to play baseball every day during the summer. The church at White Oak and Fran-Lin expanded over the baseball field next to it. Other things, have gone in over other baseball fields, and even when I was a teenager, we were chased off fields when organized leagues needed them to practice.

I'm not sure what came first, the community usurping the baseball fields where a bunch of kids could go out and play or kids not playing baseball.


I don't know about Munster, but, around me, it's kids not playing baseball. Nothing more depressing to me than seeing empty diamonds in the nearby parks on beautiful summer days.

gobears1987
04-14-2010, 04:18 PM
It doesn't kill the argument. There is interest in the game there because it is often the only way to escape the hellish conditions. MLB scouts and pseudo-pedophiles come down and establish themselves, signing children to large-ish contracts with no interest in education or community development.

No it does kill your argument. Your argument is that economic conditions make it impossible to play baseball in inner-cities while people from poorer countries can play the game. Your argument is dead. Baseball flourishes in parts of Latin America because there is interest. There is no interest for baseball in inner-cities. There is an interest for basketball there so when a top athlete chooses his sport, it is not going to be baseball.

Furthermore, if cost is what makes for the racial disparity in baseball, then why is there no such disparity in football? Football is a LOT more expensive to play than baseball.

Your pedophile comment is just plain stupid and childish.

MarySwiss
04-14-2010, 04:20 PM
I know this will sound like a typical "in my day...:geezer:" statement, but I am an early baby boomer. Kids played baseball all over, all the time, in the near west suburbs. Our bats were often held together with nails, screws, and electrical tape, the ball was usually taped up, and many of our gloves were 1930-40's hand-me-down models. I actually think it made me a much better defensive player, because when I could finally afford to buy a glove it made catching the ball simple compared to those pancake mitts I had learned with.

You don't have to have uniforms, new equipment, groomed fields and officials to play baseball. In fact, I think having too many adults involved ruins the game.

I agree with every word (although I never learned to judge a flyball with my old Ted Williams-model glove). The last time I was in Munster, I used to drive past places where we used to play baseball every day during the summer. The church at White Oak and Fran-Lin expanded over the baseball field next to it. Other things, have gone in over other baseball fields, and even when I was a teenager, we were chased off fields when organized leagues needed them to practice.

I'm not sure what came first, the community usurping the baseball fields where a bunch of kids could go out and play or kids not playing baseball.

Please allow me to join in on this geezer-fest! As a girl kid "way-back-when" :D:, I didn't play baseball, but I used to play softball with the other kids (of both persuasions). I don't remember actually playing on a field until I got to high school; we always used to play in just a grassy area in the local park--first Gage, then Margate. And more often than not, we didn't play actual games; we played bounce-or-fly, running bases, or 500. But it gave me the basics that kept me playing softball into my mid-40s. (I stopped playing it when we moved out here because 16" with a mitt is, IMO, obscene.)

I also remember my little brother playing a game in which he bounced a tennis ball against the front steps and fielded it. (He always was Luis Aparicio, IIRC.) Not sure, but I think the game was called pinner or pinder.

BTW, unfortunately I think Doub is spot-on about what would happen if you let your kid use a bat with a nail in it today. Hard to believe any of us made it out of childhood alive, innit?

Edit: I forgot to make my point. Which is, perhaps kids would be more involved with playing the game if they were still able to just go out and PLAY it.

soltrain21
04-14-2010, 04:35 PM
No room on this team for a Gold Glove winning 2B coming off a .283/.357/.417 season.

In Chicago we just want mediocre character guys that play the Chicago tough way.

Iwritecode
04-14-2010, 04:41 PM
Edit: I forgot to make my point. Which is, perhaps kids would be more involved with playing the game if they were still able to just go out and PLAY it.

We must have a bunch of kids in my neighborhood because I see them all at my daughter's school just a few blocks away. I just never see any of them outside playing.

Even my own kids don't go outside all that much. They'd rather sit inside and play with something electronic.

Sadly, our neighborhood is literred with sex offenders so we keep them close when they do go out.

Even when I was a kid and all the neighborhood kids came out to play there was really only about 3 or 4 of us at any one time. It sucks to play baseball with just 4 people.

harwar
04-14-2010, 04:47 PM
I know this will sound like a typical "in my day...:geezer:" statement, but I am an early baby boomer. Kids played baseball all over, all the time, in the near west suburbs. Our bats were often held together with nails, screws, and electrical tape, the ball was usually taped up, and many of our gloves were 1930-40's hand-me-down models. I actually think it made me a much better defensive player, because when I could finally afford to buy a glove it made catching the ball simple compared to those pancake mitts I had learned with.

You don't have to have uniforms, new equipment, groomed fields and officials to play baseball. In fact, I think having too many adults involved ruins the game.

Yea, we played in an empty lot by Archer and Ashland when i was a kid .. most of the balls we had were wrapped in electrical tape .. my uncle lefty wrapped raw-hyde straps soaked in water on my cracked bat and it lasted for years .. my friend Ruby (a girl) was one of the best natural ballplayers i ever saw .. we played a lot of "fast-pitchin" against a wall of the empty warehouse there .. back then everyone in the neighborhood played baseball during the summer .. and in the fall we played football and in winter hockey .. it all seemed so natural and effortless ..

happydude
04-14-2010, 04:50 PM
As a Black man (I prefer the term Black...its just cooler imo...lol) who, excepting a stretch in the Army and my undergrad years, has almost always lived in overwhelmingly Black neighborhoods I thought I'd offer my two cents.

The class issue is not entirely without merit. It is certainly true that issues of equipment and location may provide some barrier. As previous posters have pointed out, though, this barrier can be, and in other countries, has been overcome through sufficient ingenuity. As Grebeck pointed out, Blacks have more sporting avenues to riches and fame and may opt for those rather than engage in the type of creativity borne from the necessity of having only the option of baseball.

That is related to both class and interest, however. I have my own theory as to why Black interest in baseball waned in the 80's and since and I don't believe it can only be explained by the "Jordan Effect" and the explosion of the NBA.

Baseball is essentially a thinking man's game and, in many ways, BORING. Traditionally, the love of the sport has been passed down from generation to generation, father to son. Your dad buys you a glove when you're 4, he plays catch with you, he takes you to games, and you develop an affection for the game.

This used to happen, also, in the Black community. This passing of the torch has slowed down appreciably as the numbers of involved adult Black males has dwindled over the last several decades. It may not soon be revived regardless of outside efforts.

TheOldRoman
04-14-2010, 04:55 PM
In Chicago we just want mediocre character guys that play the Chicago tough way.I know! Totally! Beckham is a no talent hack, probably a utility guy on a good team. We should have moved him around so we could have signed a 32 year-old with a history of injuries.

g0g0
04-14-2010, 04:55 PM
Baseball is essentially a thinking man's game and, in many ways, BORING. Traditionally, the love of the sport has been passed down from generation to generation, father to son. Your dad buys you a glove when you're 4, he plays catch with you, he takes you to games, and you develop an affection for the game.

Interesting theory and totally plausible. There are a ton of traditions in the sport and little nuances to appreciate. If you don't have that sort of interaction with a father/mother figure, then you are likely to miss out on them and not appreciate the sport as much.

happydude
04-14-2010, 05:00 PM
Interesting theory and totally plausible. There are a ton of traditions in the sport and little nuances to appreciate. If you don't have that sort of interaction with a father/mother figure, then you are likely to miss out on them and not appreciate the sport as much.

Indeed.

TheOldRoman
04-14-2010, 05:16 PM
As a Black man (I prefer the term Black...its just cooler imo...lol) who, excepting a stretch in the Army and my undergrad years, has almost always lived in overwhelmingly Black neighborhoods I thought I'd offer my two cents.

The class issue is not entirely without merit. It is certainly true that issues of equipment and location may provide some barrier. As previous posters have pointed out, though, this barrier can be, and in other countries, has been overcome through sufficient ingenuity. As Grebeck pointed out, Blacks have more sporting avenues to riches and fame and may opt for those rather than engage in the type of creativity borne from the necessity of having only the option of baseball.

That is related to both class and interest, however. I have my own theory as to why Black interest in baseball waned in the 80's and since and I don't believe it can only be explained by the "Jordan Effect" and the explosion of the NBA.

Baseball is essentially a thinking man's game and, in many ways, BORING. Traditionally, the love of the sport has been passed down from generation to generation, father to son. Your dad buys you a glove when you're 4, he plays catch with you, he takes you to games, and you develop an affection for the game.

This used to happen, also, in the Black community. This passing of the torch has slowed down appreciably as the numbers of involved adult Black males has dwindled over the last several decades. It may not soon be revived regardless of outside efforts.I believe Michael Wilbon has the same theory.

Baseball is my favorite sport, so I would like to see the best athletes of any kind flocking to baseball. However, we can't force anybody to play a sport, and if kids would rather play football or basketball, they should do so. What I am saying is, although I would like to see more blacks getting into baseball, I don't think it is quite the epidemic some are making it out to be. It is good that baseball has invested in the RBI program. I don't think this issue needs to be "address" outside of rememberance of Jackie Robinson day and discussing Torii Hunter's semi-annual racist comments.

happydude
04-14-2010, 05:25 PM
I believe Michael Wilbon has the same theory.

Baseball is my favorite sport, so I would like to see the best athletes of any kind flocking to baseball. However, we can't force anybody to play a sport, and if kids would rather play football or basketball, they should do so. What I am saying is, although I would like to see more blacks getting into baseball, I don't think it is quite the epidemic some are making it out to be. It is good that baseball has invested in the RBI program. I don't think this issue needs to be "address" outside of rememberance of Jackie Robinson day and discussing Torii Hunter's semi-annual racist comments.

I agree with you and don't perceive this as a "problem". If the talent pool from which to select players increases by virtue of increased participation by Blacks then it would be good for all of us who appreciate excellent play and want to see the best in any sport. However, to be the best requires dedication which requires interest and marketing campaigns are unlikely to create the kind of long term commitment necessary to achieve the excellence we enjoy.

Go ahead with RBI and such but, no, this isn't a crisis and we can do without the Civil Rights connotations. This kind of thing is often cyclical; and if thats not the case here then so be it.

TDog
04-14-2010, 05:32 PM
...
Baseball is essentially a thinking man's game and, in many ways, BORING. Traditionally, the love of the sport has been passed down from generation to generation, father to son. Your dad buys you a glove when you're 4, he plays catch with you, he takes you to games, and you develop an affection for the game.

This used to happen, also, in the Black community. This passing of the torch has slowed down appreciably as the numbers of involved adult Black males has dwindled over the last several decades. It may not soon be revived regardless of outside efforts.

You may be on to something. Also, everywhere in this country, thinking isn't as popular as it used to be. Certainly attention spans are not. I can see where baseball would take a hit as a result.

happydude
04-14-2010, 06:19 PM
You may be on to something. Also, everywhere in this country, thinking isn't as popular as it used to be. Certainly attention spans are not. I can see where baseball would take a hit as a result.

Your larger point is well taken. Its simply not fashionable to invest time and effort into things that require thought and/or patience. Reading and intelligent discussion, even among the educated, seems virtually nonexistent as we have become a society of voyeurs seeking faster and faster sensory stimulation.

But I'm not complaining; nothing ever stays the same.

TheCommander
04-14-2010, 10:45 PM
In Chicago we just want mediocre character guys that play the Chicago tough way.

Grinderball, dude! :Rocker: