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Lip Man 1
04-10-2010, 12:20 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100409&content_id=9177694&notebook_id=9178050&vkey=notebook_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Lip

Konerko05
04-10-2010, 12:27 AM
Guillen, take a hike.

DeuceUnit
04-10-2010, 12:38 AM
Just got home from this latest disaster and I hope Guillen is ****ing gone by the All Star break.

It's Dankerific
04-10-2010, 12:40 AM
Thats most of the problem. Ozzie thinks he always knows what he's doing and he's unable to be questioned.

twinsuck
04-10-2010, 12:44 AM
Ozzie is a ****ing idiot.

HarryChappas
04-10-2010, 12:45 AM
I put the thread out months ago... Ozzie is going to waste this pitching staff... Beckham should never , ever bunt and nice hit and run tonight. La Russa next year.

BleacherBandit
04-10-2010, 12:47 AM
I put the thread out months ago... Ozzie is going to waste this pitching staff... Beckham should never , ever bunt and nice hit and run tonight. La Russa next year.

Haha.

EDIT:

Well, don't watch it. That's easy, man," Guillen said. "If you don't want to watch the way I'm managing this club, be a Cub fan or talk about something else. I'm not going to tell people why I do stuff, what I did

He's asking us not to be fans, pretty much. Doesn't being a fan require one to watch the team when it's playing poorly?

DickAllen72
04-10-2010, 12:47 AM
Did anyone see/hear Guillen on CTL before the game tonight? I hope I heard wrong but through the bleeps and the heavy accent it sounded like he said something about fans being "idiots" and then something along the lines of, "that's why they have to get up every morning at 4:00AM and I have this job."

If in fact that is what he said He definitely crossed the line and probably should be fired. It's bad enough that he's telling his company's customers to go to the competition by becoming Cubs fans or telling them to stop following the Sox. Most businesses would fire an employee for that.

Maybe the fans should continue to stay away from the ballpark and let Ozzie see how important he is in the grand scheme of things.

Just because fans criticize a managerial decision that reasonable people can disagree on is no reason to be insulting and condescending. And as far as the poor performance of the team so far, this is the roster and kind of team Guillen always wanted so he has to take the blame for the results.

Granted it's very early, but this team looks like it's going to be a terrible waste of a great pitching staff and mainly because this is the roster the manager wanted.

HarryChappas
04-10-2010, 12:50 AM
He is an idiot!!

october23sp
04-10-2010, 12:50 AM
We need a fire ozzie picture.

BRDSR
04-10-2010, 12:53 AM
Did anyone see/hear Guillen on CTL before the game tonight? I hope I heard wrong but through the bleeps and the heavy accent it sounded like he said something about fans being "idiots" and then something along the lines of, "that's why they have to get up every morning at 4:00AM and I have this job."

If in fact that is what he said He definitely crossed the line and probably should be fired. It's bad enough that he's telling his company's customers to go to the competition by becoming Cubs fans or telling them to stop following the Sox. Most businesses would fire an employee for that.

Maybe the fans should continue to stay away from the ballpark and let Ozzie see how important he is in the grand scheme of things.

Just because fans criticize a managerial decision that reasonable people can disagree on is no reason to be insulting and condescending. And as far as the poor performance of the team so far, this is the roster and kind of team Guillen always wanted so he has to take the blame for the results.

Granted it's very early, but this team looks like it's going to be a terrible waste of a great pitching staff and mainly because this is the roster the manager wanted.

Pretty good post, IMO, especially if Ozzie really did condescend to me by referencing the fact that I got up at 4AM (5:20, really) this morning to go make a living and then stay up until midnight (EST) to watch his ****ty team **** the bed.

HarryChappas
04-10-2010, 12:54 AM
ANY OF US COULD HAVE MANAGED 2005, sh8T WITH THAT STAFF AND PEN.

Mod edit: Do not try to evade the language filters; official warning. Oh, and turn off the caps lock.

SI1020
04-10-2010, 12:57 AM
Did anyone see/hear Guillen on CTL before the game tonight? I hope I heard wrong but through the bleeps and the heavy accent it sounded like he said something about fans being "idiots" and then something along the lines of, "that's why they have to get up every morning at 4:00AM and I have this job."

If in fact that is what he said He definitely crossed the line and probably should be fired. It's bad enough that he's telling his company's customers to go to the competition by becoming Cubs fans or telling them to stop following the Sox. Most businesses would fire an employee for that.

Maybe the fans should continue to stay away from the ballpark and let Ozzie see how important he is in the grand scheme of things.

Just because fans criticize a managerial decision that reasonable people can disagree on is no reason to be insulting and condescending. And as far as the poor performance of the team so far, this is the roster and kind of team Guillen always wanted so he has to take the blame for the results.

Granted it's very early, but this team looks like it's going to be a terrible waste of a great pitching staff and mainly because this is the roster the manager wanted. If this is true it's no better than the drivel a certain son of his posts on his Twitter account. Like father like son?

DickAllen72
04-10-2010, 12:58 AM
Pretty good post, IMO, especially if Ozzie really did condescend to me by referencing the fact that I got up at 4AM (5:20, really) this morning to go make a living and then stay up until midnight (EST) to watch his ****ty team **** the bed.
I really hope I heard him wrong because I used to like Ozzie. Actually, I really liked Ozzie the first few years, then I've had mixed feelings about him the past few years being frustrated with some of his antics and baseball moves but generally liking him on the whole.

But lately he's been particularly frustrating, particularly with the comments quoted in the story Lip linked in his post. And if in fact I heard him correctly about the 4:00AM comment, I'd like to see him gone.

BainesHOF
04-10-2010, 01:01 AM
Ozzie won't tell us why he makes a baseball move, but Twitters about what he had for lunch?!

Ozzie doesn't get it. He really needs to look in the mirror. His team looks terrible and he's been part of the problem so far.

I have a feeling that Ozzie's act and his team's struggles aren't going to be tolerated for much longer if things don't change fairly quickly. A terrible start can have major financial ramifications, especially in a bad economy.

Konerko05
04-10-2010, 01:05 AM
The only thing giving me hope right now is that Kenny is probably more enraged with this team/situation than all of us combined.

Changes will be made. Hopefully it's not more Mark Teahens.

dickallen15
04-10-2010, 01:05 AM
Ozzie won't tell us why he makes a baseball move, but Twitters about what he had for lunch?!

Ozzie doesn't get it. He really needs to look in the mirror. His team looks terrible and he's been part of the problem so far.

I have a feeling that Ozzie's act and his team's struggles aren't going to be tolerated for much longer if things don't change fairly quickly. A terrible start can have major financial ramifications, especially in a bad economy.

He twitters because he gets stuff for his twittering.

Nellie_Fox
04-10-2010, 01:06 AM
Beckham should never , ever bunt and nice hit and run tonight. La Russa next year.That's crazy. Of course there are times when Beckham should bunt. He's not a 40 homer guy, and he can handle the bat.

As soon as the hit and run failed, I knew there'd be people screaming about it being a bad decision, yet it was one of the alternatives that people said Ozzie should have used last night to stay out of the double play instead of bunting. Knowing what to do after the fact is real easy.

Noneck
04-10-2010, 01:06 AM
I have seen this elsewhere in life. A loose cannon that will eventually hang himself if you give him enough rope. He has already has started making that hangmans knot and soon will put his melon in it.

DickAllen72
04-10-2010, 01:08 AM
Ozzie won't tell us why he makes a baseball move, but Twitters about what he had for lunch?!

Ozzie doesn't get it. He really needs to look in the mirror. His team looks terrible and he's been part of the problem so far.

I have a feeling that Ozzie's act and his team's struggles aren't going to be tolerated for much longer if things don't change fairly quickly. A terrible start can have major financial ramifications, especially in a bad economy.
Especially when the team's manager who is also the "face of the franchise" and it's number one spokesman tells the fans to stop following the Sox or become Cubs fans just because he doesn't feel like he owes them an explanation to a baseball move he made in a close game.

I always thought discussing/debating strategies was part of what being a baseball was all about. A team's manager should be a little more diplomatic with the fans, especially after only three games.

sox1970
04-10-2010, 01:09 AM
This season is pretty simple...win or leave. That goes for Kenny Williams too. You have a general manager that brought on huge contracts in Peavy and Rios, then went along with the rotating DH idea because Ozzie wanted it. Giving in to Ozzie shouldn't be part of the job description, but since he did, it's on Ozzie to win with what he asked for. So they better get this season going soon, or it could get real ugly. The 2005 Get of Jail Free Card has expired.

HarryChappas
04-10-2010, 01:13 AM
That's crazy. Of course there are times when Beckham should bunt. He's not a 40 homer guy, and he can handle the bat.

As soon as the hit and run failed, I knew there'd be people screaming about it being a bad decision, yet it was one of the alternatives that people said Ozzie should have used last night to stay out of the double play instead of bunting. Knowing what to do after the fact is real easy.

Did George Brett bunt much? How about Ryne Sanburg? Beckham is that type of player. He is the "Man" who will lead us to promised land if Ozzie wakes up or goes away.

GoGoCrede
04-10-2010, 01:14 AM
Eh. As soon as we go on a winning streak, most people will forgive and forget these comments.

WhiteSox5187
04-10-2010, 01:15 AM
I LOVE Ozzie, but he had as big of a hand in making this team as Kenny did. If we can't win this year, it's on Ozzie (barring injuries). People will say "oh anyone could have managed that '05 team the world series" c'mon, Jerry Manuel does not win the World Series in '05. I think Ozzie did a good job of managing in '08 as well to get us where he got us. But...I don't know. I'm getting kind of sick of his act and I think there's a good chance that his players are going to start to tune him out soon. But it's only four games into the season. We might be talking about Ozzie for manager of the year in September.

dickallen15
04-10-2010, 01:23 AM
I LOVE Ozzie, but he had as big of a hand in making this team as Kenny did. If we can't win this year, it's on Ozzie (barring injuries). People will say "oh anyone could have managed that '05 team the world series" c'mon, Jerry Manuel does not win the World Series in '05. I think Ozzie did a good job of managing in '08 as well to get us where he got us. But...I don't know. I'm getting kind of sick of his act and I think there's a good chance that his players are going to start to tune him out soon. But it's only four games into the season. We might be talking about Ozzie for manager of the year in September.
I'm seeing similarities to Ditka with Ozzie. There are some that will be devoted to him forever, but perhaps with the twitter and the TV show, and now, and I don't know if he's involved but supposedly Oney is so we know Oney doesn't make his own money, a bar at the Catcher's site on Halsted, maybe he's losing some focus. He's ranting, his boss finds him to be less lovable. Its way too soon to make any conclusions about this year, and I for one don't put any blame on Ozzie for the roster. That's not his job. He can give a wish list, the roster is ultimately someone else's responsibility, but I just wonder if this circus is getting tiring for almost everyone and if Ozzie may not be managing the White Sox a year from now, no matter if they win the WS again or lose 100 games.

Rocky Soprano
04-10-2010, 01:26 AM
I'm tired of Ozzie's act, I wish they send him packing. Good riddance to that entire family.

GoGoCrede
04-10-2010, 01:31 AM
:rolling: Guys, Oney has had his say:

OneyRoberto (http://twitter.com/OneyRoberto)
Cubs fans r way more loyal maybe Sox fans need to learn something about that

:rolling: :rolling:

This family gets nuttier by the minute.

KnightSox
04-10-2010, 01:36 AM
:rolling: Guys, Oney has had his say:

OneyRoberto (http://twitter.com/OneyRoberto)
Cubs fans r way more loyal maybe Sox fans need to learn something about thatOney is confusing being brain dead with loyalty. All of these comments from Ozzie on down are quite disturbing.

DickAllen72
04-10-2010, 01:42 AM
I'm seeing similarities to Ditka with Ozzie. There are some that will be devoted to him forever, but perhaps with the twitter and the TV show, and now, and I don't know if he's involved but supposedly Oney is so we know Oney doesn't make his own money, a bar at the Catcher's site on Halsted, maybe he's losing some focus. He's ranting, his boss finds him to be less lovable. Its way too soon to make any conclusions about this year, and I for one don't put any blame on Ozzie for the roster. That's not his job. He can give a wish list, the roster is ultimately someone else's responsibility, but I just wonder if this circus is getting tiring for almost everyone and if Ozzie may not be managing the White Sox a year from now, no matter if they win the WS again or lose 100 games.
There are many differences between Ditka and Guillen. Ditka never insulted the fans like Guillen does. Most if not all of Ditka's emotional outbursts were immediately after tough losses and he would often apologize days later when he cooled down. Guillen makes stupid comments constantly whether in the heat of a post game session or relaxed sitting in his office on an off-day or even during the offseason. Ditka didn't make racial or ethnic slurs either.

Ditka had a team owner that was just waiting to fire him but couldn't because of his on-field success and popularity with the fans. McCaskey started interfering with draft day decisions and getting rid of players Ditka wanted to keep just to usurp his power. Hell, he even fired Jerry Vainisi and went without a GM just because Vainisi was Ditka's only real ally in the front office. Contrast that with Guillen who has an entire organization that constantly has his back and an owner that is loyal to a fault.

But the biggest difference between the two was that one of Ditka's biggest strengths was a keen eye for evaluating talent. This seems to be one of Ozzie's biggest weaknesses. But that can be offset by KW who can overrule him on personnel decisions.

But at some point, Ozzie's penchant for saying stupid things and especially insulting the fans will be too much for JR and KW to cover.

MARTINMVP
04-10-2010, 01:58 AM
I don't find Ozzie entertaining. He really should be muzzled, honestly.

There was an incident last summer about fans booing Jenks and Ozzie telling fans if they don't like his managing, then don't come to the ballpark. KW didn't like that statement and even said so publically, if I remember right.

The whole odeal with Ozzie's son, the Twitter and his overall demeanor is frankly embarrassing. For the sake of the long-term credibility of the organization, I sincerely hope that all the crap with Twitter and his sons is real and not some phony work for the damn MLB Network reality show.

Say what you will about Cub fans, but there is a lot with this organization that is just plain silly - I think it takes a lot for long-time Sox fans to continue to put up with it.

Craig Grebeck
04-10-2010, 02:00 AM
Ozzie, always willing to put himself ahead of and above the organization. Good for him.

And no, Beckham should never, ever sacrifice. Ever.

Edit: honestly, Beckham's CEILING (if all goes right, and way right) is Chase Utley, and he has 3 sacrifice hits in his entire career. I think that's something Ozzie should strive for with Beckham.

russ99
04-10-2010, 02:07 AM
Ya know what, he's right. I understand second guessing a manager, but Sox fans have not acted classy for a while. Booing Wise, etc.

I thought being a Sox fan was to take pride in your team and cheer them through good and bad, but now everyone expects way too much and when anything doesn't go as planned are irate and lambaste the smallest issue.

Sadly, we're coming across as the douchebag Red Sox fans we can't stand.

BTW- Beckham's in his second year and everyone assumes he's an all-star. Until he plays like an all-star he's not above bunting and executing the hit and run...

Craig Grebeck
04-10-2010, 02:09 AM
Ya know what, he's right. I understand second guessing a manager, but Sox fans have not acted classy for a while. Booing Wise, etc.

I thought being a Sox fan was to take pride in your team and cheer them through good and bad, but now everyone expects way too much and when anything doesn't go as planned are irate and lambaste the smallest issue.

Sadly, we're coming across as the douchebag Red Sox fans we can't stand.
He's not ripping Sox fans for lacking class, he's calling them idiots for second-guessing him. Ozzie can go **** himself on all counts.

Slappy
04-10-2010, 02:45 AM
I am really tired of Ozzie's shtick. I bit my tongue as far as calling for his head during Twittergate etc, but the guy just flat out runs his mouth too much. He lacks class, and I wouldn't be sorry to see him gone.

Is bunting Beckham like that a big deal? Will that one call make a difference in this 162 game season? How could it possibly? Was it bone-head move by Ozzie? Probably.

DickAllen72
04-10-2010, 02:45 AM
I found the quote I heard with Ozzie referring to people who criticize his decisions getting up at 4:00 AM. http://http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5072863

He's definitely calling those who disagree with him "idiots" but I'm not sure if those who have to get up at 4:00 AM are regular fans or people who talk baseball on radio, TV or newspaper.

Still he's saying that they should become Cubs fans.

gregoriop
04-10-2010, 02:54 AM
I love Ozzie.

mcfish
04-10-2010, 03:00 AM
Whether the fans' criticism is valid or not, it really irritates me whenever a player/coach/manager jumps on his own team's fans. He really should apologize for saying it, but he won't because he's Ozzie.

And the best part is that he's completely wrong. "I'll bet they didn't talk about how we struck out 12 times and all the times we had bases loaded and didn't get a hit. They talk about how I run this ballclub!" Apparently he doesn't understand that people can talk about more than one topic in the 20 hours between games, because people have most certainly been talking about the craptastic offense in addition to his decision-making prowess.

RedPinStripes
04-10-2010, 03:05 AM
You never played the game you don't understand! I'm waiting for that to come up.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
04-10-2010, 03:07 AM
I found the quote I heard with Ozzie referring to people who criticize his decisions getting up at 4:00 AM. http://http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5072863

He's definitely calling those who disagree with him "idiots" but I'm not sure if those who have to get up at 4:00 AM are regular fans or people who talk baseball on radio, TV or newspaper.

Still he's saying that they should become Cubs fans.

Well, Ozzie, suck less at managing, then maybe us "idiots" will get the hell off your back. He thinks that the 9th-inning sacrifice took the bat out of just Beckham's hands. Newsflash, Ozzie...it took the bat out of Quentin's hands too. All they had to do was walk him, and they a) don't have to deal with the best hitter at the time in a game-winning situation and b) set up a sure inning-ending DP with the two slowest guys on the team at 1st and the plate. If Beckham gets a hit, you - at worst - have 1st and 3rd with no outs, and while Q would have gotten walked anyway, at least you have 2 outs to work with instead of one.

Ozzie, I'm 23 years old, and don't have any managerial experience. But even I know that it was a dumb move on your part to have Beckham bunt. After all, isn't Pierre's only strength that he can steal a bag? Why not send him loose in that situation, especially with a weak-throwing catcher? Ozzie totally mismanaged that entire inning.

Also, I'd rather stop following baseball altogether before following the Cubs. But thanks for the invite.

CLR01
04-10-2010, 03:32 AM
You never played the game you don't understand! I'm waiting for that to come up.

Those guys must still be drinking or sleeping. Give it a few hours.

And it'll probably be more along the lines of you've never managed...or if you're so smart why didn't they hire you...:rolleyes:

cards press box
04-10-2010, 07:24 AM
Eh. As soon as we go on a winning streak, most people will forgive and forget these comments.

Absolutely right.

A. Cavatica
04-10-2010, 07:38 AM
:fireozzie

Underachieving since 2006.

Viva Medias B's
04-10-2010, 08:56 AM
I saw a quote in the Sun-Times this morning along the lines that if Ozzie does not like us second-guessing his decisions, we should go cheer for the Cubs. That offended me. Ozzie, a 25-year veteran of this organization, should know better than anybody that we Sox fans are always demanding and will not hesitate to second-guess when something goes wrong.

Our 1-3 start is not entirely Ozzie's fault, but his decision to bunt Beckham twice is puzzling.

doublem23
04-10-2010, 08:58 AM
We need a fire ozzie picture.

Like this one, that we already have?

:fireozzie

doublem23
04-10-2010, 08:59 AM
:rolling: Guys, Oney has had his say:

OneyRoberto (http://twitter.com/OneyRoberto)
Cubs fans r way more loyal maybe Sox fans need to learn something about that

:rolling: :rolling:

This family gets nuttier by the minute.

I wish I had a Twitter account so I could tell him to go tweet himself.

Viva Medias B's
04-10-2010, 09:00 AM
:rolling: Guys, Oney has had his say:

OneyRoberto (http://twitter.com/OneyRoberto)
Cubs fans r way more loyal maybe Sox fans need to learn something about that

:rolling: :rolling:

This family gets nuttier by the minute.

The Guillen family act has gotten really old. Older than Larry King.

veeter
04-10-2010, 09:06 AM
Did George Brett bunt much? How about Ryne Sanburg? Beckham is that type of player. He is the "Man" who will lead us to promised land if Ozzie wakes up or goes away.O.k. so Ozzie's reasoning is Beckham isn't hitting well right now, that's why the bunts. What does that have to do with Pierre's ****ing speed??!! Let him steal, then let Gordon bunt him over!! This is where Ozzie misses the target. It's cover-your-ass managing. "Well, I had him bunt Pierre into scoring position, now it's up to my players to drive him in." He doesn't have the balls to risk Pierre's steal.

skobabe8
04-10-2010, 09:52 AM
That's crazy. Of course there are times when Beckham should bunt. He's not a 40 homer guy, and he can handle the bat.

As soon as the hit and run failed, I knew there'd be people screaming about it being a bad decision, yet it was one of the alternatives that people said Ozzie should have used last night to stay out of the double play instead of bunting. Knowing what to do after the fact is real easy.

Thank you.

You people have lost your minds and its only April. Thats bad, even for WSI.

Dan H
04-10-2010, 10:10 AM
The Guillen family act has gotten really old. Older than Larry King.

I agree totally. Ozzie's sons need to have a life of their own and not hang around where their father works. As far as Ozzie goes, it is time for him to shut his arrogant mouth and start managing. He has the team he wants. Now either produce or take his loud mouth routine elsewhere. Maybe the Cubs will hire if after they fire Pinella. Ozzie seems to like Cub fans better anyway.

Brian26
04-10-2010, 10:37 AM
And no, Beckham should never, ever sacrifice. Ever.

I disagree. In the bottom of the 9th in a tie game at home, I think it's a good move to get Pierre over to 2nd base and give TCQ and Konerko a chance to knock him in. The fact that Beckham has the ability to put a bunt down in that situation is a welcome change from past clubs.

Any other situation (earlier in the game, down by a run, on the road, ...) I agree with you.

Brian26
04-10-2010, 10:38 AM
The Guillen family act has gotten really old. Older than Larry King.

"Venezuela, hello."

SI1020
04-10-2010, 10:42 AM
Maybe the Cubs will hire if after they fire Pinella. Ozzie seems to like Cub fans better anyway. Are they going to forgive his comments about their holy shrine Wrigley Field?

kevingrt
04-10-2010, 10:45 AM
Thank you.

You people have lost your minds and its only April. Thats bad, even for WSI.

I don't agree with what Ozzie said but you are right Sko this place has gone overboard on April 10, 2010. That's a new record in my eight years at this joint.

Thome25
04-10-2010, 10:46 AM
Beckham bunting and Sox fans VS Ozzie as a result has really separated the knowledgable Sox fans from the questionable Sox fans.

Bottom line is, all of the "armchair managers" around here and calling into the Score need to realize that as someone else already posted, Beckham is not a 40 homer guy. He should have to bunt once in a while. Especially if he is capable.

Fans need to be fans and let managment manage the team. Yes we are entitled to our opinions but to let something as simple as a couple of bunts whip the fanbase into a frenzy and call for the manager's head is beyond ludicrous.

BRDSR
04-10-2010, 11:01 AM
Beckham bunting and Sox fans VS Ozzie as a result has really separated the knowledgable Sox fans from the questionable Sox fans.

Bottom line is, all of the "armchair managers" around here and calling into the Score need to realize that as someone else already posted, Beckham is not a 40 homer guy. He should have to bunt once in a while. Especially if he is capable.

Fans need to be fans and let managment manage the team. Yes we are entitled to our opinions but to let something as simple as a couple of bunts whip the fanbase into a frenzy and call for the manager's head is beyond ludicrous.

As far as this thread is concerned, I don't think it's the bunting decision (which I didn't disagree with) that has people calling for the manager's head. It's that he runs his mouth and attempts to personally insult fans who put a lot of energy and, for many, thousands of dollars into following the White Sox. (And I say "attempts" only because the fans he addresses are never present when he runs his mouth; if they were, I doubt he would say anything different.)

GoGoCrede
04-10-2010, 11:11 AM
I wish I had a Twitter account so I could tell him to go tweet himself.

He actually replied to me! I said something like, "Stop blaming the fans for the play on the field, they're just upset," and he told me, "hey genius I never blamed the fans. Wrigley is always sold out. Why can't the cell be like that"

So then I said, Wrigley is sold out because of the surrounding neighborhood and he proceeded to tell me that there are bars on the Southside. He just doesn't get it. :rolleyes:

And I think that was the dumbest argument I've ever been involved in, and I am now embarrassed.

BadBobbyJenks
04-10-2010, 11:18 AM
I disagree. In the bottom of the 9th in a tie game at home, I think it's a good move to get Pierre over to 2nd base and give TCQ and Konerko a chance to knock him in. The fact that Beckham has the ability to put a bunt down in that situation is a welcome change from past clubs.

Any other situation (earlier in the game, down by a run, on the road, ...) I agree with you.

Would you bunt with Quentin if Beckham led off the inning with a single? No you would not.

SephClone89
04-10-2010, 11:26 AM
Would you bunt with Quentin if Beckham led off the inning with a single? No you would not.

One could argue that the difference between the two situations is that Beckham has proven that he can bunt.

BRDSR
04-10-2010, 11:27 AM
Would you bunt with Quentin if Beckham led off the inning with a single? No you would not.

Haha...does demonstrating a truth based on a hypothetical situation demonstrate anything about reality? No it does not.

:rolleyes:

Iguana775
04-10-2010, 11:29 AM
He actually replied to me! I said something like, "Stop blaming the fans for the play on the field, they're just upset," and he told me, "hey genius I never blamed the fans. Wrigley is always sold out. Why can't the cell be like that"

So then I said, Wrigley is sold out because of the surrounding neighborhood and he proceeded to tell me that there are bars on the Southside. He just doesn't get it. :rolleyes:

And I think that was the dumbest argument I've ever been involved in, and I am now embarrassed.

should have told him to go be a Cubs fan if he's so jealous. lol.:bandance:

BadBobbyJenks
04-10-2010, 11:30 AM
Haha...does demonstrating a truth based on a hypothetical situation demonstrate anything about reality? No it does not.

:rolleyes:

I am not sure what you are saying.

hawkjt
04-10-2010, 11:31 AM
The 4 AM comment was directly pointed at Mulley and Hanley. I heard them that morning and they were ripping on Ozzie non--stop for most of their show. Hanley is such a jerk,cannot stand that guy, I would be fine if ozzie punched his lites out...Mully was just stirring the pot a little,but these talk show guys love to get the juices of their callers going and those fans echo the theme of the day...and it goes downhill.

Ozzie makes dozens of little decisions each day,and in baseball,there is about a 30% chance of it being right....

Win some games, and it should settle down...still would like to Hanley get hammered.:D:

BRDSR
04-10-2010, 11:41 AM
I am not sure what you are saying.

As I understood your post, your argument was that Beckham shouldn't have bunted with Pierre on first because, hypothetically, Quentin shouldn't bunt with Beckham on first. Logically the argument doesn't make sense because a) Beckham is a better bunter than Quentin, b) if Quentin gets a hit, it is more likely to be an extra-base hit than if Beckham gets a hit, and 3) Pierre is more likely to be able to get home on a single than Beckham is, so it is more valuable to have him at second base than to have Beckham at second base.

But perhaps I misunderstood your post.

BadBobbyJenks
04-10-2010, 11:46 AM
As I understood your post, your argument was that Beckham shouldn't have bunted with Pierre on first because, hypothetically, Quentin shouldn't bunt with Beckham on first. Logically the argument doesn't make sense because a) Beckham is a better bunter than Quentin, b) if Quentin gets a hit, it is more likely to be an extra-base hit than if Beckham gets a hit, and 3) Pierre is more likely to be able to get home on a single than Beckham is, so it is more valuable to have him at second base than to have Beckham at second base.

But perhaps I misunderstood your post.

In four more games last season, Beckham had 14 more doubles. I dont agree with that assessment.

My point was I think Beckham is as good and maybe an even better hitter than Quentin. Taking the bat out of his hands is silly especially with the good chance of Q being walked behind him with a base now open.

Trading Beckham and Quentin at bats for Paulie and Andruw Jones is never a good idea.

Tragg
04-10-2010, 12:02 PM
Ozzie said if you don't agree with his strategy then go root for another team.
When discussing the 9th innning bunt, he doesn't even recognize that his decision took the bat out of Quentin's hands as well.

Ozzie's ego is the problem.


We're 2/3 bad seasons...don't need 3/4.

Navarro's Talent
04-10-2010, 12:02 PM
So, if this team's still 2.5 games out of first place come August, are the fans still going to be this uptight?

BRDSR
04-10-2010, 12:07 PM
In four more games last season, Beckham had 14 more doubles. I dont agree with that assessment.

My point was I think Beckham is as good and maybe an even better hitter than Quentin. Taking the bat out of his hands is silly especially with the good chance of Q being walked behind him with a base now open.

Trading Beckham and Quentin at bats for Paulie and Andruw Jones is never a good idea.

And seven fewer home runs. Still, parsing the numbers, which I didn't do before, I admit it's pretty close. Over the course of their careers, Beckham has a 9.8% chance of an extra base hit every time he steps to the plate and a 41.5% chance of an extra base hit every time he gets a hit; Quentin's percentages are 10.1 and 46.2, respectively, with the first being more important to the analysis.

More generally, I agree that Beckham may be as good or better an all-around hitter than Quentin...that includes situational hitting. If Beckham is laying down a bunt, he actually has a shot at getting a hit. Quentin really doesn't, and the chance that he can even get the bunt down successfully is much smaller.

The difference between Beckham and Quentin bunting in that situation is that when Beckham bunts, Quentin is still coming up behind him; if Quentin bunts, Beckham's not coming up behind him.

Jerko
04-10-2010, 12:10 PM
Didn't Ozzie have a "we dont need the fans" moment as a player as well? Ozzie, newsflash: your team bores me to tears. I've missed the end of more games this season than the last 20 combined. I don't think anybody here is going to run off and become a Cub fan, but if the Sox current level of play continues, along with your "**** the fan" attitude, there WILL be less "butts in seats" by oh, mid June or so. How many relievers are going to be "unavailable" today, the 5th game of the year, with Freddy going? Must be the idiot fans' fault. Hope Freddy throws a gem.

Lip Man 1
04-10-2010, 12:27 PM
Jerko:

Ozzie made his comments as a player about the fans while in Toronto in 1995 after a number of Blue Jay fans apparently crossed the line and started calling Frank Thomas some racially charged names and the fact that the players / owners couldn't come to an agreement in 1994.

Lip

cheezheadsoxfan
04-10-2010, 12:28 PM
He actually replied to me! I said something like, "Stop blaming the fans for the play on the field, they're just upset," and he told me, "hey genius I never blamed the fans. Wrigley is always sold out. Why can't the cell be like that"

So then I said, Wrigley is sold out because of the surrounding neighborhood and he proceeded to tell me that there are bars on the Southside. He just doesn't get it. :rolleyes:

And I think that was the dumbest argument I've ever been involved in, and I am now embarrassed.

I have generally tried not to let Ozzie's BS bother me but that is offensive. Somebody needs to explain the difference about the fan bases to him. I never thought I'd say this but if he doesn't get his act together this season I think it's time to go.

kevingrt
04-10-2010, 12:48 PM
He actually replied to me! I said something like, "Stop blaming the fans for the play on the field, they're just upset," and he told me, "hey genius I never blamed the fans. Wrigley is always sold out. Why can't the cell be like that"

So then I said, Wrigley is sold out because of the surrounding neighborhood and he proceeded to tell me that there are bars on the Southside. He just doesn't get it. :rolleyes:

And I think that was the dumbest argument I've ever been involved in, and I am now embarrassed.

Closet Cubs fan I bet.

I know he does read this place though and he probably loves the attention.

soltrain21
04-10-2010, 01:04 PM
They are becoming my least favorite family.

october23sp
04-10-2010, 01:05 PM
Like this one, that we already have?

:fireozzie
I didn't know we had that. In that case...
:fireozzie

Tragg
04-10-2010, 01:17 PM
I disagree. In the bottom of the 9th in a tie game at home, I think it's a good move to get Pierre over to 2nd base and give TCQ and Konerko a chance to knock him in.
I would agree with that if Quentin would hit.
But that's not going to happen because Quentin will be walked in that situation by any sane opposing manager. So that leaves us with Konerko and Jones/Kotsay plus one less out.

Frater Perdurabo
04-10-2010, 01:23 PM
I can see both sides, and I guess I was OK with the Beckham sac bunt in the ninth. I think it was worth the out to get Pierre into scoring position, because just one run would win the game at that point, and just a single would score Pierre from second.

In the seventh, I thought it was a bad move. At that point, yes, you need to get the lead, but the idea is to score as many runs as possible. Therefore, I don't want to take the bat away from the two best hitters on the team. So in that situation, I'm inclined to let Pierre try to steal second base, because it's likely Beckham would see a lot of fastballs thrown by a distracted pitcher. And if Beckham fails, Quentin is likely to get a steady diet of fastballs with Pierre attempting to steal.

Dibbs
04-10-2010, 01:47 PM
I can't believe so many people stick up for this guy. It's not like Ozzie is all that smart of a guy, or rational for that matter.

SI1020
04-10-2010, 02:08 PM
Beckham bunting and Sox fans VS Ozzie as a result has really separated the knowledgable Sox fans from the questionable Sox fans.

Bottom line is, all of the "armchair managers" around here and calling into the Score need to realize that as someone else already posted, Beckham is not a 40 homer guy. He should have to bunt once in a while. Especially if he is capable.

Fans need to be fans and let managment manage the team. Yes we are entitled to our opinions but to let something as simple as a couple of bunts whip the fanbase into a frenzy and call for the manager's head is beyond ludicrous. It's much more than a couple of bunts.

soltrain21
04-10-2010, 02:15 PM
Beckham bunting and Sox fans VS Ozzie as a result has really separated the knowledgable Sox fans from the questionable Sox fans.

Bottom line is, all of the "armchair managers" around here and calling into the Score need to realize that as someone else already posted, Beckham is not a 40 homer guy. He should have to bunt once in a while. Especially if he is capable.

Fans need to be fans and let managment manage the team. Yes we are entitled to our opinions but to let something as simple as a couple of bunts whip the fanbase into a frenzy and call for the manager's head is beyond ludicrous.

:rolleyes:

mjmcend
04-10-2010, 03:36 PM
:rolleyes:

Don't you get it, either you back Ozzie unconditionally or you are an idiot.

It must be true, Ozzie said so. This begging the question stuff is fun.

russ99
04-10-2010, 03:58 PM
Don't you get it, either you back Ozzie unconditionally or you are an idiot.

It must be true, Ozzie said so. This begging the question stuff is fun.

No. That's not it at all.

If you question every thing he does or says because you think he's stupid, lazy or an awful manager, then you're an idiot.

Viva Medias B's
04-10-2010, 04:33 PM
Ozzie said if you don't agree with his strategy then go root for another team.
When discussing the 9th innning bunt, he doesn't even recognize that his decision took the bat out of Quentin's hands as well.

Ozzie's ego is the problem.


We're 2/3 bad seasons...don't need 3/4.

These moments of Ozzie and the White Sox are very much beginning to parallel Ditka's latter seasons with the Bears. Ozzie needs to drop his ego, and he better be careful that he does not do or say something that gives KW the excuse he needs to can him.

Brian26
04-10-2010, 08:01 PM
I can't believe so many people stick up for this guy. It's not like Ozzie is all that smart of a guy, or rational for that matter.

On the contrary, I've never seen so many people as fed up with Ozzie as in this thread.

It's Dankerific
04-10-2010, 08:15 PM
Ozzie has supporters where it counts.

JB98
04-10-2010, 09:32 PM
Doesn't Ozzie realize that his comments can be turned around on him easily?

If we don't like the way he manages the club, then we can go cheer for the Cubs, huh?

Well, if Ozzie does not like White Sox fans, then maybe he can go manage the Cubs.

See how easy that statement is to turn around?

Ozzie has been in Major League Baseball for 25 years, most of them in some capacity with the White Sox. The fans here haven't changed. We still love to win and hate to lose.

The Guillen family needs to heed its own advice: **** feelings. It's about winning. I know you're reading, Oney, so go tell your father I said that. Even though the team is playing poorly, I was at the ballpark today and I'll be there tomorrow, too. I'll be cheering for the Sox. So don't question my loyalty.

GoGoCrede
04-10-2010, 09:40 PM
The Guillen family needs to heed its own advice: **** feelings. It's about winning. I know you're reading, Oney, so go tell your father I said that. Even though the team is playing poorly, I was at the ballpark today and I'll be there tomorrow, too. I'll be cheering for the Sox. So don't question my loyalty.

Great post. I've been at the ballpark all week, even when the cold was making me miserable. I sat through extras and didn't leave. I know there are thousands of others like me who would have done the same. To read this kind of **** from the Guillens is kind of a slap in the face.

And thank God Oney no longer works for the organization. Go find another job and become the Cubs fan that you probably are.

Milkman43
04-10-2010, 10:22 PM
If Ozzie's going to take the Bat out of Beckham's hands with a bunt then I don't want Gordon batting in the 2-hole. If Kotsay's in the lineup, I think he should bat second. Maybe even try Alexei there again?

oeo
04-10-2010, 10:28 PM
I don't agree with Beckham bunting, in fact, I absolutely hate it. It's nothing more than a difference in philosophy, however. We're not "right" for hating it, Ozzie's not "wrong" for doing it.

There are mistakes a manager can make, this isn't one of them. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's the wrong move.

oeo
04-10-2010, 10:35 PM
On the contrary, I've never seen so many people as fed up with Ozzie as in this thread.

I think most people are indifferent on the manager, and unless they're really ****ing up, you should be. You're only a good manager if you have a)the players and b)they're doing their jobs. I saw Joe Girardi completely **** up Opening Night last week through terrible bullpen management (and people want to complain about Ozzie), yet he won a World Series last year and is thought to be one of the better managers in baseball.

Depending on whether the team is winning or losing, people's feelings lean that way towards the manager. Right now everyone is obviously frustrated and there has to be a scape goat. The problem is the inability to hit with RISP, though. How many people would seriously have been complaining if Pierre scored the other night? Not many.

Lip Man 1
04-10-2010, 11:01 PM
JB:

Interesting point...I wonder if his son's actually lurk here at WSI.

OEO:

I don't think it would change things much. This offense is still awful with no signs right now of improvement.

2-3 isn't much better than 1-4 when the first three games were against a garbage club.

Lip

mjmcend
04-10-2010, 11:54 PM
I don't agree with Beckham bunting, in fact, I absolutely hate it. It's nothing more than a difference in philosophy, however. We're not "right" for hating it, Ozzie's not "wrong" for doing it.

There are mistakes a manager can make, this isn't one of them. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's the wrong move.

I largely agree, I didn't agree with the move (because you are taking the bat out of the hands of your two best hitters) but it is not something worth getting more than momentarily upset about. That level of anger may lead someone to say something heated and possible foolish on the internet or the radio. What bothers me is the dumbass response by our manager. Hasn't he yet learned that sports radio and the internet is populated with nutbags such as ourselves? Why can't he ignore them (us) like most professional adults? He is the face of this franchise and should have more self control and professionalism to not insult and antagonize part of his fanbase.

oeo
04-11-2010, 12:09 AM
I don't think it would change things much. This offense is still awful with no signs right now of improvement.

People would not be talking about Beckham being asked to bunt is what I was talking about. Of course some people would, just to do it, but would Ozzie have ever said what he did? Not likely because the backlash would be much, much less and Ozzie isn't going to give a **** because it worked.

oeo
04-11-2010, 12:13 AM
I largely agree, I didn't agree with the move (because you are taking the bat out of the hands of your two best hitters) but it is not something worth getting more than momentarily upset about. That level of anger may lead someone to say something heated and possible foolish on the internet or the radio. What bothers me is the dumbass response by our manager. Hasn't he yet learned that sports radio and the internet is populated with nutbags such as ourselves? Why can't he ignore them (us) like most professional adults? He is the face of this franchise and should have more self control and professionalism to not insult and antagonize part of his fanbase.

He definitely should have reworded what he said, but I agree with the premise of what he's saying. He shouldn't care what the fan base thinks of his decisions. Honestly, there's always going to be someone who is going to disagree with something that happens in a baseball game. What's he supposed to do, cater to each and every fan's opinion? I mean, this was a purely philosophical move. Neither side is right or wrong, it's funny that so many fans think that Ozzie is flat out WRONG.

mjmcend
04-11-2010, 12:49 AM
He definitely should have reworded what he said, but I agree with the premise of what he's saying. He shouldn't care what the fan base thinks of his decisions. Honestly, there's always going to be someone who is going to disagree with something that happens in a baseball game. What's he supposed to do, cater to each and every fan's opinion? I mean, this was a purely philosophical move. Neither side is right or wrong, it's funny that so many fans think that Ozzie is flat out WRONG.

I don't care what he privately thinks about the nutjobs going out over the airways. However, he should not air these feelings publicly. In short, he should act like a damn professional.

It's Dankerific
04-11-2010, 01:51 AM
He definitely should have reworded what he said, but I agree with the premise of what he's saying. He shouldn't care what the fan base thinks of his decisions. Honestly, there's always going to be someone who is going to disagree with something that happens in a baseball game. What's he supposed to do, cater to each and every fan's opinion? I mean, this was a purely philosophical move. Neither side is right or wrong, it's funny that so many fans think that Ozzie is flat out WRONG.

Some philosophies are wrong. Bunting with Beckham in those situations is one of them.

BainesHOF
04-11-2010, 02:26 AM
If we don't like the way he manages the club, then we can go cheer for the Cubs, huh?

Well, if Ozzie does not like White Sox fans, then maybe he can go manage the Cubs.

Exactly.

Konerko05
04-11-2010, 05:24 AM
If Ozzie honestly thinks he's bigger than the White Sox organization, he needs to go.

Seriously, it's time.

Welcome, you're officially worn out.

DickAllen72
04-11-2010, 12:22 PM
If Ozzie honestly thinks he's bigger than the White Sox organization, he needs to go.

Seriously, it's time.

Welcome, you're officially worn out.
It's interesting that for the past few days during the postgame press conferences, Ozzie has been wearing and "Ozzie13" hat and T shirt. It does seem as if he is really becoming full of himself.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-11-2010, 12:43 PM
Did anyone see/hear Guillen on CTL before the game tonight? I hope I heard wrong but through the bleeps and the heavy accent it sounded like he said something about fans being "idiots" and then something along the lines of, "that's why they have to get up every morning at 4:00AM and I have this job."

If in fact that is what he said He definitely crossed the line and probably should be fired. It's bad enough that he's telling his company's customers to go to the competition by becoming Cubs fans or telling them to stop following the Sox. Most businesses would fire an employee for that.

Maybe the fans should continue to stay away from the ballpark and let Ozzie see how important he is in the grand scheme of things.

Just because fans criticize a managerial decision that reasonable people can disagree on is no reason to be insulting and condescending. And as far as the poor performance of the team so far, this is the roster and kind of team Guillen always wanted so he has to take the blame for the results.

Granted it's very early, but this team looks like it's going to be a terrible waste of a great pitching staff and mainly because this is the roster the manager wanted.


I disagree. MOST places say if you don't like this place fine leave you can be replaced. It's like a private school. They don't care if you hate it and leave, people are prob dying to go to that school and we take your spot.

dickallen15
04-11-2010, 12:51 PM
It's interesting that for the past few days during the postgame press conferences, Ozzie has been wearing and "Ozzie13" hat and T shirt. It does seem as if he is really becoming full of himself.

While he may be getting full of himself, to be fair the stuff he's wearing is the Oswaldo Guillen Foundation which was established in 1997 and raises money for poor Venezuelan kids. Its a worthy cause.

Frontman
04-11-2010, 12:55 PM
While he may be getting full of himself, to be fair the stuff he's wearing is the Oswaldo Guillen Foundation which was established in 1997 and raises money for poor Venezuelan kids. Its a worthy cause.

Don't let facts get in the way of ammunition for the Ozzie haters!

Seriously; he's pissed off like the rest of us. He's also pissed off that those who claimed this lineup wouldn't work are saying "SEE SEE SEE, IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!" after 4 freakin' bad games.

If a week from now; the Sox are over .500; nobody other than Ozzie haters are going to remember his comments. Those who hate Ozzie will hold onto those remarks for the rest of his tenure here in Chicago.

And as far as LaRussa? Again, show me a team that he won it all with that didn't have a suspected 'roider on it; then come talk to me about him becoming the Sox manager.

DickAllen72
04-11-2010, 12:57 PM
While he may be getting full of himself, to be fair the stuff he's wearing is the Oswaldo Guillen Foundation which was established in 1997 and raises money for poor Venezuelan kids. Its a worthy cause.
OK, I didn't know that. All I could see was "Ozzie13" on his hat and T shirt and I thought it was some sort of self-promotion.

Frontman
04-11-2010, 12:58 PM
OK, I didn't know that. All I could see was "Ozzie13" on his hat and T shirt and I thought it was some sort of self-promotion.

It's easy to think that nowadays; with the amount of player branding that happens. Tiger Woods, Tom Brady, BG7...

DickAllen72
04-11-2010, 01:12 PM
He's also pissed off that those who claimed this lineup wouldn't work are saying "SEE SEE SEE, IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!" after 4 freakin' bad games.


Really? I thought he was pissed that someone would dare ask him to explain a managerial decision that reasonable people can disagree on.

I always liked Ozzie and am in no way an Ozzie "hater". But his act is wearing thin lately and I resent the fact that he calls fans who may disagree with him "idiots" and tells loyal Sox fans to stop following the Sox or worse yet become Cubs fans simply because they may question having Gordon Beckham bunt.

The Dude
04-11-2010, 02:37 PM
If Ozzie honestly thinks he's bigger than the White Sox organization, he needs to go.

Seriously, it's time.

Welcome, you're officially worn out.

Agreed, this sideshow family needs to get their arrogant asses out of this city.

Frontman
04-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Really? I thought he was pissed that someone would dare ask him to explain a managerial decision that reasonable people can disagree on.

I always liked Ozzie and am in no way an Ozzie "hater". But his act is wearing thin lately and I resent the fact that he calls fans who may disagree with him "idiots" and tells loyal Sox fans to stop following the Sox or worse yet become Cubs fans simply because they may question having Gordon Beckham bunt.

So, let me guess; you never said anything to anyone you'd regret later on.

Ozzie can get frustrated (and frustrating) but I care about them getting a win more than if he hurts someone's feelings by calling them an idiot.

Lip Man 1
04-11-2010, 05:43 PM
Front:

In truth though, Ozzie has been doing this fairly often the past few years no?

At what point in time does the "excuse" (and I say that without malice) that he said something wrong and regretted it wear thin?

You never, never, never (in my opinion) insult your fan base and paying customers.

I've heard enough from those who work with him that despite his faults, JR always feels the fans have the right to say what they will and that he insists that the fans are the top priority of the organization.

I tend to think these are the type of comments that get his attention.

Lip

Frontman
04-11-2010, 06:44 PM
Front:

In truth though, Ozzie has been doing this fairly often the past few years no?

At what point in time does the "excuse" (and I say that without malice) that he said something wrong and regretted it wear thin?

You never, never, never (in my opinion) insult your fan base and paying customers.

I've heard enough from those who work with him that despite his faults, JR always feels the fans have the right to say what they will and that he insists that the fans are the top priority of the organization.

I tend to think these are the type of comments that get his attention.

Lip

True; but if JR decides to censure or fire Ozzie; that isn't because we want it. It will be because JR wants it.

I agree with you; you should never fire off on the paying customer. And yes, Ozzie has been a loudmouth for years. Probably since he learned how to speak.

However; Ozzie didn't fire off on ALL the paying customers; just the one's calling for his head due to Beckham bunting. Huge difference between saying "all of our fans are idiots."

Zelemont
04-11-2010, 07:45 PM
OK, I didn't know that. All I could see was "Ozzie13" on his hat and T shirt and I thought it was some sort of self-promotion. There is a tacky shop in the local mall that spray-paints t-shirts (like they do at fairs) and I have literally seen these little thug wannabes walking around with their own name and a tough looking picture of themselves on their t-shirts. It makes me so jealous... but we can't all be that cool.

GoGoCrede
04-11-2010, 08:05 PM
Don't let facts get in the way of ammunition for the Ozzie haters!

Seriously; he's pissed off like the rest of us. He's also pissed off that those who claimed this lineup wouldn't work are saying "SEE SEE SEE, IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!" after 4 freakin' bad games.

If a week from now; the Sox are over .500; nobody other than Ozzie haters are going to remember his comments. Those who hate Ozzie will hold onto those remarks for the rest of his tenure here in Chicago.

And as far as LaRussa? Again, show me a team that he won it all with that didn't have a suspected 'roider on it; then come talk to me about him becoming the Sox manager.

While I agree that Ozzie must be very frustrated, and that it must be hard to hear the fans calling for his head, I wish he had phrased what he said differently. Telling people to go watch the Cubs when they express their displeasure? Come on. He's been saying that kind of crap since last season. It isn't clever.

I've never had an opinion on Ozzie going or staying, but his latest batch of comments come off as pretty alienating to the fanbase. I suppose it would kill him to say "No comment."

Although I still maintain that the second we go on a winning streak, most people will forget he ever made these comments.

bigdommer
04-11-2010, 08:21 PM
I guess I am in the minority here, but I have no problem with what Ozzie said. Two successful bunts, with the first runner scoring and Paulie his a scorching line drive that would have scored the other had it not hung up there.

I would never want a manager to make a decision based on what the fan base wants, nor would I want him to explain his reasoning in the open media. And I wouldn't say Ozzie is firing on the paying customer. I think he's firing on the fantasy baseball GM's who live with their parents and think they are a cross between John Wooden and Vince Lombardi, and call in radio shows to whine about a loss.

If you don't want to take the occasional Ozzie tirade with a grain of salt, then the White Sox are probably not the right team for you.

Frontman
04-11-2010, 08:23 PM
There is a tacky shop in the local mall that spray-paints t-shirts (like they do at fairs) and I have literally seen these little thug wannabes walking around with their own name and a tough looking picture of themselves on their t-shirts. It makes me so jealous... but we can't all be that cool.

And this has exactly WHAT to do with Ozzie's foundation?

bigdommer
04-11-2010, 08:28 PM
And as far as LaRussa? Again, show me a team that he won it all with that didn't have a suspected 'roider on it; then come talk to me about him becoming the Sox manager.

2006 St. Louis Cardinals. And if you think Pujols is on 'roids, well I guess Frank Thomas, Cal Ripken, and everyone else was using and we should all just find another sport.

asindc
04-11-2010, 08:28 PM
I guess I am in the minority here, but I have no problem with what Ozzie said. Two successful bunts, with the first runner scoring and Paulie his a scorching line drive that would have scored the other had it not hung up there.

I would never want a manager to make a decision based on what the fan base wants, nor would I want him to explain his reasoning in the open media. And I wouldn't way Ozzie is firing on the paying customer. I think he's firing on the fantasy baseball GM's who live with their parents and think they are a cross between John Wooden and Vince Lombardi, and call in radio shows to whine about a loss.

If you don't want to take the occasional Ozzie tirade with a grain of salt, then the White Sox are probably not the right team for you.

I think a lot of people are venting because of the Sox dropping winnable games to start the season.

I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded part.

canOcorn
04-11-2010, 08:43 PM
I guess I am in the minority here, but I have no problem with what Ozzie said. Two successful bunts, with the first runner scoring and Paulie his a scorching line drive that would have scored the other had it not hung up there.



One of the problems is that it's the wrong strategic move. It's way more probable to score a run from 1B and no outs that it is to score from 2B and 1 out. He takes the bat out of Beckham's hand (and tCQ too) with a bunt, but yet lets Alexei hack away after AJ lead off with a single today. I'd understand a little better if he's got a philosophy, but it's completely by the seat of his pants and it makes no sense.

Ranger
04-11-2010, 09:44 PM
Holy Hell, there's a lot of overreaction around here after 1 week of baseball and with 25 left to play. Give it some time, folks. By the middle of the summer, early April is going to feel like a decade ago.


I found the quote I heard with Ozzie referring to people who criticize his decisions getting up at 4:00 AM. http://http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5072863

He's definitely calling those who disagree with him "idiots" but I'm not sure if those who have to get up at 4:00 AM are regular fans or people who talk baseball on radio, TV or newspaper.
Still he's saying that they should become Cubs fans.

For the record, it seems Ozzie was taking a swipe at my station or callers to my station when he made the "waking up at 4 am" comment. He's not talking about people that have regular jobs and have to wake up at 4.
Well, Ozzie, suck less at managing, then maybe us "idiots" will get the hell off your back. He thinks that the 9th-inning sacrifice took the bat out of just Beckham's hands. Newsflash, Ozzie...it took the bat out of Quentin's hands too. All they had to do was walk him, and they a) don't have to deal with the best hitter at the time in a game-winning situation and b) set up a sure inning-ending DP with the two slowest guys on the team at 1st and the plate. If Beckham gets a hit, you - at worst - have 1st and 3rd with no outs, and while Q would have gotten walked anyway, at least you have 2 outs to work with instead of one.
Ozzie, I'm 23 years old, and don't have any managerial experience. But even I know that it was a dumb move on your part to have Beckham bunt. After all, isn't Pierre's only strength that he can steal a bag? Why not send him loose in that situation, especially with a weak-throwing catcher? Ozzie totally mismanaged that entire inning.

Also, I'd rather stop following baseball altogether before following the Cubs. But thanks for the invite.

I've said this before and I'll reiterate, I disagree with bunting Pierre over in the 7th of that game but not the 9th. Lefty on the mound, Pierre doesn't know the pickoff move, and his run was WAY too important to get thrown out at 2nd. If he would've attempted to steal and been thrown out, everyone here would've been blasting Ozzie for not using the sacrifice. The team's two best hitters were coming up next.

Furthermore, Beckham is probably going to be a really good player when it's all said and done, but some of us are getting too quick to anoint the kid a baseball god. He is not yet above laying down a bunt.

Brian26
04-11-2010, 09:56 PM
For the record, it seems Ozzie was taking a swipe at my station or callers to my station when he made the "waking up at 4 am" comment. He's not talking about people that have regular jobs and have to wake up at 4.

That's walking a mighty fine line.

Frontman
04-11-2010, 10:35 PM
2006 St. Louis Cardinals. And if you think Pujols is on 'roids, well I guess Frank Thomas, Cal Ripken, and everyone else was using and we should all just find another sport.

Let me rephrase then; those who weren't suspected of 'roids or HGH.

There; then that can include Winnie Pujols as well. The one who has done it "clean" like A-rod....oops.

Frontman
04-11-2010, 10:37 PM
That's walking a mighty fine line.

Agreed with that. When you start splitting hairs like that; its easy to get offended at something that wasn't meant to be directed at you. I see how fans took it as being about them.

I just chose not to get upset over it; because I usually don't do the second-guess game with baseball.

Ranger
04-11-2010, 11:57 PM
That's walking a mighty fine line.

How is that walking a fine line? I don't think it's walking any line to take a shot at a morning talk show.

Konerko05
04-12-2010, 12:09 AM
How is that walking a fine line? I don't think it's walking any line to take a shot at a morning talk show.

Well considering a large portion of White Sox fans who don't host a morning talk show took offense, I'd say he actually crossed the line.

Also, telling fans if they don't like the way he manages to not watch or become Cubs fans is completely inexcusable.

I don't really understand how anyone can defend him on this issue.

manders_01
04-12-2010, 12:23 AM
2006 St. Louis Cardinals. And if you think Pujols is on 'roids, well I guess Frank Thomas, Cal Ripken, and everyone else was using and we should all just find another sport.

Let me rephrase then; those who weren't suspected of 'roids or HGH.

There; then that can include Winnie Pujols as well. The one who has done it "clean" like A-rod....oops.

Actually, there was one known PED user on the '06 team, Larry Bigbie (although he admits using from '01-'05 so supposedly not during his tenure with the Cards). Should Ozzie not be our manager for whatever reason, LaRussa is not who I want to see become our manager.

Ranger
04-12-2010, 12:56 AM
Well considering a large portion of White Sox fans who don't host a morning talk show took offense, I'd say he actually crossed the line.

Also, telling fans if they don't like the way he manages to not watch or become Cubs fans is completely inexcusable.

I don't really understand how anyone can defend him on this issue.

I'm not defending him and I'm only talking about the "waking up at 4 am" comment. He wasn't talking about the average person, he was talking about a couple of talk show hosts for the radio station at which I'm employed. He was referring to the morning show at my station and I'm not offended by it.

He probably should have just called them out by name if that's what he was thinking.

mcfish
04-12-2010, 01:00 AM
I'm not defending him and I'm only talking about the "waking up at 4 am" comment. He wasn't talking about the average person, he was talking about a couple of talk show hosts for the radio station at which I'm employed. He was referring to the morning show at my station and I'm not offended by it.

He probably should have just called them out by name if that's what he was thinking.Well, that's not what he was thinking when he told us all that if we don't like the decisions he makes then we can go become Cubs fans. That part of his little rant was pretty clearly aimed at the general public and not at a couple of talk show hosts.

Ranger
04-12-2010, 01:02 AM
Well, that's not what he was thinking when he told us all that if we don't like the decisions he makes then we can go become Cubs fans. That part of his little rant was pretty clearly aimed at the general public and not at a couple of talk show hosts.

Which is why I wasn't talking about that comment.

mcfish
04-12-2010, 01:11 AM
Which is why I wasn't talking about that comment.I thought at first that you were referring to us overreacting to the whole Ozzie quote with your first sentence. I went back and reread and it appears that you weren't; you were talking about the team in general and then commented on one part of the quote in particular, so sorry about that.

Ranger
04-12-2010, 02:30 AM
I thought at first that you were referring to us overreacting to the whole Ozzie quote with your first sentence. I went back and reread and it appears that you weren't; you were talking about the team in general and then commented on one part of the quote in particular, so sorry about that.

Yes.

Noneck
04-12-2010, 03:21 AM
Which is why I wasn't talking about that comment.

Any reason you don't want to talk about that comment?

Hope you aren't just cherry picking the one you can defend.

guillensdisciple
04-12-2010, 04:07 AM
I am biased towards Ozzie- always have been and always will be, but I will say this much. He has always done well, and better than expected with the teams he has been given. While criticism is justified towards anyone in any organization, I think it is bad on our part to throw the man under the bus after 5 or 6 games before.

Don't forget that you are an observer, and it is a lot easier for us to say this or that should have happened when we are not in the game situation. There are a lot of things that go into this that we probably don't think about.

Him telling us to become Cubs fans is a little much, but I know I would say the same thing if I was in his shoes. Maybe he deserves to be questioned, but his point remains that questioning him won't do anything good for the team. What will us creating an uproar after 5 games do, besides put more stress on an already stressed out team?

Ease off the pedal for a little and be happy with the return of baseball. Our time to criticize will come if the Sox don't perform as the season moves along. Right now, we are only seeing the beginning of what could be a beautiful or ugly thing.

Sam Spade
04-12-2010, 04:14 AM
I am biased towards Ozzie- always have been and always will be, but I will say this much. He has always done well, and better than expected with the teams he has been given. While criticism is justified towards anyone in any organization, I think it is bad on our part to throw the man under the bus after 5 or 6 games before.

Don't forget that you are an observer, and it is a lot easier for us to say this or that should have happened when we are not in the game situation. There are a lot of things that go into this that we probably don't think about.

Him telling us to become Cubs fans is a little much, but I know I would say the same thing if I was in his shoes. Maybe he deserves to be questioned, but his point remains that questioning him won't do anything good for the team. What will us creating an uproar after 5 games do, besides put more stress on an already stressed out team?

Ease off the pedal for a little and be happy with the return of baseball. Our time to criticize will come if the Sox don't perform as the season moves along. Right now, we are only seeing the beginning of what could be a beautiful or ugly thing.
It was a highly questionable move. Its not the fans fault it came at a time that is early in the season and a time when ozzie was feeling sensitive enough to lash out.

bigdommer
04-12-2010, 07:41 AM
One of the problems is that it's the wrong strategic move. It's way more probable to score a run from 1B and no outs that it is to score from 2B and 1 out. He takes the bat out of Beckham's hand (and tCQ too) with a bunt, but yet lets Alexei hack away after AJ lead off with a single today. I'd understand a little better if he's got a philosophy, but it's completely by the seat of his pants and it makes no sense.

I didn't know that it was 100% the absolute wrong strategic move. If Konerko's bullet doesn't hang up then all of a sudden it's the 100% correct strategic move.

Be careful thinking that certain things have to be done or not done in certain situations. Maybe Beckham had terrible splits against the pitcher, or maybe Beckham had a choice to lay down the bunt (yes, there are times where the player has the choice). Maybe the guy facing Alexei didn't have a good out pitch, so Alexei might get a fastball. Gordon is a much better bunter than Alexei anyway, so comparing the two situations is apples vs. oranges. We don't study spray charts, we don't chart pitchers, and we don't have the slightest idea if someone is having trouble seeing the ball out of the pitchers hand. Baseball isn't played in a vacuum, and if there were black and white rules on when to bunt and when to swing away, Ozzie wouldn't be the manager and they would just plug it all into a computer and see what happens.

Ranger
04-12-2010, 03:03 PM
Any reason you don't want to talk about that comment?

Hope you aren't just cherry picking the one you can defend.

I brought it up because it's the only comment that's been wildly misinterpreted around here. Everyone seems to think he was taking a shot at blue collar workers that have to wake up early to get to their jobs, when in reality, he's talking about a talk show on a sports radio station.

Good enough for you?

harwar
04-12-2010, 03:16 PM
I'm actually a bit shocked at the anger(that borders on hatred) of Ozzie on this board .. things haven't been that bad really .. all the games have been close and we could easily be 4-2 (or even 5-1) right now .. if the wind slacks for a minute then Alex Rios would have had a game winning home run .. if Denard Span misses that catch in center on saturday instead of sunday .. we win then also .. anyway, i'm excited about this team ..

spawn
04-12-2010, 03:21 PM
I'm actually a bit shocked at the anger(that borders on hatred) of Ozzie on this board .. things haven't been that bad really .. all the games have been close and we could easily be 4-2 (or even 5-1) right now .. if the wind slacks for a minute then Alex Rios would have had a game winning home run .. if Denard Span misses that catch in center on saturday instead of sunday .. we win then also .. anyway, i'm excited about this team ..
I think a lot of it has to do with the way Ozzie wanted the team assembled this year (Jones/Kotsay at DH, saying no to fan favorite Jim Thome), and the way the offense has struggled so far. Add to that the fact that Ozzie is pretty stubborn, and seems to be rather thin-skinned when fans criticize his decision (going so far as to criticize the fans themselves), you have a recipe for fans turning on him. I've been frustrated by him early on so far, and I believe he needs to learn to shut the **** up sometimes, but I don't hate him.

FielderJones
04-12-2010, 03:45 PM
Add to that the fact that Ozzie is pretty stubborn, and seems to be rather thin-skinned when fans criticize his decision

Ozzie didn't suggest that Sox fans don't have jobs, nor did he invite them to kiss his ****ing ass right downtown, and print it.

Ozzie has a long way to go to reach the gold standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Elia#Managerial_career) of manager thin-skinness.

Noneck
04-12-2010, 04:19 PM
Good enough for you?

I can see how that 1st comment could have been misinterpreted until you clarified it. The other comment was cut and dry. I guess I also understand why you want to steer clear on giving your opinion on that one. So, yes its good enough for me.

Ranger
04-12-2010, 04:32 PM
I can see how that 1st comment could have been misinterpreted until you clarified it. The other comment was cut and dry. I guess I also understand why you want to steer clear on giving your opinion on that one. So, yes its good enough for me.


Honestly, I didn't give my thoughts on the other comments because I guess I just don't care about them. They don't mean anything to me. It's a guy frustrated at his team and frustrated at the fans overreaction and this is nothing new. We do this nonsense every year where people go insane over something Ozzie says and it still amazes me that people still freak out. This is who he is and he is never going to not be that person.

Noneck
04-12-2010, 04:41 PM
Honestly, I didn't give my thoughts on the other comments because I guess I just don't care about them. They don't mean anything to me. It's a guy frustrated at his team and frustrated at the fans overreaction and this is nothing new. We do this nonsense every year where people go insane over something Ozzie says and it still amazes me that people still freak out. This is who he is and he is never going to not be that person.


I know hes a hot head and has diarrhea of the mouth at times but a comment like the one he made, did dig deep into the heart of some lifelong Sox fans. Telling them to be a cub fan is about the worse thing you can say to a Sox fan. That comment did cross the line, if you have been a Sox fan forever.

spawn
04-12-2010, 04:44 PM
I know hes a hot head and has diarrhea of the mouth at times but a comment like the one he made, did dig deep into the heart of some lifelong Sox fans. Telling them to be a cub fan is about the worse thing you can say to a Sox fan. That comment did cross the line, if you have been a Sox fan forever.
I've been a Sox ever since I started watching baseball (1977). His comment was stupid, but I don't know if it crossed the line. Believe it or not, there are worst things he could've said than telling those critical of him to become a Cubs fan.

Noneck
04-12-2010, 04:51 PM
I've been a Sox ever since I started watching baseball (1977). His comment was stupid, but I don't know if it crossed the line. Believe it or not, there are worst things he could've said than telling those critical of him to become a Cubs fan.

I am glad you let this run off your back. I just cant think of anything worse than telling a Sox fan that he should become a cubs fan. There might be something worse but at this time I really cant think of one.

Jerko
04-12-2010, 04:51 PM
I usually laugh at Ozzie, but when I look at my tickets, and stadium club passes, and whatever I spend at the park, I don't need to be told to go be a ****ing Cub fan by the manager of the team.

DickAllen72
04-12-2010, 04:55 PM
I think a lot of it has to do with the way Ozzie wanted the team assembled this year (Jones/Kotsay at DH, saying no to fan favorite Jim Thome), and the way the offense has struggled so far. Add to that the fact that Ozzie is pretty stubborn, and seems to be rather thin-skinned when fans criticize his decision (going so far as to criticize the fans themselves), you have a recipe for fans turning on him. I've been frustrated by him early on so far, and I believe he needs to learn to shut the **** up sometimes, but I don't hate him.
I don't hate him either. In fact, I like him but recently I've been mad at him.

If I hated him, his comments wouldn't bother me one bit. It's because I like him that his stupid comments pissed me off. Also some of his managerial decisions piss me off too but again that doesn't mean I hate him.

spawn
04-12-2010, 04:58 PM
I don't hate him either. In fact, I like him but recently I've been mad at him.

If I hated him, his comments wouldn't bother me one bit. It's because I like him that his stupid comments pissed me off. Also some of his managerial decisions piss me off too but again that doesn't mean I hate him.
Yeah, he's definitely got a case of foot-in-mouth disease, and apparently no one in the Sox organization has been able to find the cure.

WhiteSoxFTW
04-12-2010, 05:52 PM
I usually laugh at Ozzie, but when I look at my tickets, and stadium club passes, and whatever I spend at the park, I don't need to be told to go be a ****ing Cub fan by the manager of the team.
I definitely see your point.

I look at his comments as Ozzie just being Ozzie, and it is early season frustration, but if this team starts playing bad mis-season baseball the attendance drop off might get worse from Ozzie telling fans to stop watching and stop being fans. I understand he wants to be a baseball manager and he thinks he is good at it, but having butts in the seats is a good thing Ozzie. Hell, I think having an intelligent enough baseball fanbase to give solid arguments for/against in-game managerial decisions is a good thing. Maybe Ozzie disagrees.

Frontman
04-12-2010, 10:39 PM
I know hes a hot head and has diarrhea of the mouth at times but a comment like the one he made, did dig deep into the heart of some lifelong Sox fans. Telling them to be a cub fan is about the worse thing you can say to a Sox fan. That comment did cross the line, if you have been a Sox fan forever.

So, like insulting your family or saying your son or daughter isn't yours is LESS insulting than being called a Cubs fan?

I need to re-define an insult then.

Noneck
04-12-2010, 11:02 PM
So, like insulting your family or saying your son or daughter isn't yours is LESS insulting than being called a Cubs fan?

I need to re-define an insult then.

Yea thats something Ive heard a manager say to Sox fans or any manager to any fans.:rolleyes:

You know we are talking about what a manager says to fans. Please get real.

Frontman
04-13-2010, 12:03 AM
Yea thats something Ive heard a manager say to Sox fans or any manager to any fans.:rolleyes:

You know we are talking about what a manager says to fans. Please get real.

Ok, then keeping with the manager to a fan; how about telling the fan to go screw themselves; THAT to me would be worse than being told to become a Cubs fan.

Frankfan4life
04-13-2010, 06:35 AM
I think a lot of people are venting because of the Sox dropping winnable games to start the season.

I wholeheartedly agree with the bolded part.If Ozzie picks on us, we'll pick on him back (and vice versa, I might add). But, if we keep winning I'll forgive anything and Ozzie will be a hero again. It's that simple.

doublem23
04-13-2010, 07:04 AM
Ok, then keeping with the manager to a fan; how about telling the fan to go screw themselves; THAT to me would be worse than being told to become a Cubs fan.

Someone in the Sox organization telling you to be a Cub fan is essentially them telling you to go screw yourself.

Frontman
04-13-2010, 09:37 AM
Someone in the Sox organization telling you to be a Cub fan is essentially them telling you to go screw yourself.

Not even close. One's an poorly chose suggestion; the other is a direct insult.

BRDSR
04-13-2010, 10:06 AM
Not even close. One's an poorly chose suggestion; the other is a direct insult.

I have to disagree...telling someone to go screw themselves is a nondescript insult which can be chalked up to frustration. The White Sox manager telling me to go be a Cubs fan is like a swift kick in the nuts...he's really hitting where he knows its going to hurt.

I have to admit, though, that winning does cure all. I was pretty mad when this thread started, and suddenly with a two-game winning streak I'm finding it easier to let it roll of my back.

jabrch
04-13-2010, 10:11 AM
First, I agree with whomever earlier made the point - OG was directing much of his comments at Mully and Hanley who raked him through the coals.

And second, really, who the **** cares? OG has a big mouth. He has no filter. Stupid **** comes out of it. Really - who the **** cares? I don't. He's not my role model, nor my kids role model. He's the manager of a baseball team that I cheer for. I couldn't care less what message he sends to the media or even to a bunch of fans who do nothing but bitch about decisions he makes that are by no means factually provably right or wrong... It just doesn't matter to me. I'm not taking Ozzie Guillen's words personally for a (exaggeration) million different reasons.

tick53
04-13-2010, 10:39 AM
:jerry

"Do 'ya miss me now?'

skobabe8
04-13-2010, 10:52 AM
I know hes a hot head and has diarrhea of the mouth at times but a comment like the one he made, did dig deep into the heart of some lifelong Sox fans. Telling them to be a cub fan is about the worse thing you can say to a Sox fan. That comment did cross the line, if you have been a Sox fan forever.

I have been, and it didn't. Not even close.

I find it ironic in this particular thread that people have accused Ozzie of having thin skin.

skobabe8
04-13-2010, 10:54 AM
First, I agree with whomever earlier made the point - OG was directing much of his comments at Mully and Hanley who raked him through the coals.

And second, really, who the **** cares? OG has a big mouth. He has no filter. Stupid **** comes out of it. Really - who the **** cares? I don't. He's not my role model, nor my kids role model. He's the manager of a baseball team that I cheer for. I couldn't care less what message he sends to the media or even to a bunch of fans who do nothing but bitch about decisions he makes that are by no means factually provably right or wrong... It just doesn't matter to me. I'm not taking Ozzie Guillen's words personally for a (exaggeration) million different reasons.

I hope everyone reads this.

Its as simple, rational, and logical as it gets.

Ranger
04-13-2010, 10:57 AM
I have been, and it didn't. Not even close.

I find it ironic in this particular thread that people have accused Ozzie of having thin skin.


I was actually just about to say the same thing. You know I love all y'all, but I think some people here are being much too sensitive about this. And if you are being sensitive about it, then you really can't ever criticize another person/player/coach for having "thin skin".

sullythered
04-13-2010, 10:57 AM
I hope Ozzie manages this ballclub for another 20 years.

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-13-2010, 11:12 AM
I hope Ozzie manages this ballclub for another 20 years.

I may go bat**** because I don't agree with Ozzie, but I'm not the manager. He is. I want to see him manage until HE doesn't want to do it anymore.

guillensdisciple
04-13-2010, 11:37 AM
i hope ozzie manages this ballclub for another 20 years.

+1

AzureJazzMan
04-13-2010, 11:58 AM
LMAO!!!:rolling: So many of you guys just crack me up! Seriously! I have read and re-read the posts here, and am still completely dumbfounded, as to how you have been so "offended" by Ozzie. Wow! Do you not get it? You fell for the OG trap!!!

You're all mad at him, and all he is doing (and successfully, I might add) is trying to take on the ire of the fans, rather than have it go against his guys on the field. He does this all the time, and you're not wise to it yet? Ugh, what's even more sad is that you're getting crazy about this after only 1 WEEK of the regular season. I fear for what will happen here come :gasp: Memorial Day!

canOcorn
04-13-2010, 12:23 PM
You're all mad at him, and all he is doing (and successfully, I might add) is trying to take on the ire of the fans, rather than have it go against his guys on the field. He does this all the time, and you're not wise to it yet? Ugh, what's even more sad is that you're getting crazy about this after only 1 WEEK of the regular season. I fear for what will happen here come :gasp: Memorial Day!

:thud: Yeah, that's exactly what he was doing. He was being his usual defensive self when questioned on a managerial move.

Craig Grebeck
04-13-2010, 12:53 PM
LMAO!!!:rolling: So many of you guys just crack me up! Seriously! I have read and re-read the posts here, and am still completely dumbfounded, as to how you have been so "offended" by Ozzie. Wow! Do you not get it? You fell for the OG trap!!!

You're all mad at him, and all he is doing (and successfully, I might add) is trying to take on the ire of the fans, rather than have it go against his guys on the field. He does this all the time, and you're not wise to it yet? Ugh, what's even more sad is that you're getting crazy about this after only 1 WEEK of the regular season. I fear for what will happen here come :gasp: Memorial Day!
Oh yes! We're all so stupid! Ozzie, the genius! My oh my, how we're all so feeble in his shadow.

Noneck
04-13-2010, 12:54 PM
I hope everyone reads this.

Its as simple, rational, and logical as it gets.

Not really. What is logical : You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

PhillipsBubba
04-13-2010, 12:57 PM
My thoughts on OG...

Like my father used to say...

"If you are in the car and you hear an annoying noise...turn up the radio!"

skobabe8
04-13-2010, 01:02 PM
Not really. What is logical : You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Ozzie didn't bite my hand.

But thats just me. I don't lose my **** and demand an apology everytime Ozzie says something stupid.

spawn
04-13-2010, 01:12 PM
Ozzie didn't bite my hand.

But thats just me. I don't lose my **** and demand an apology everytime Ozzie says something stupid.
Exactly. If Ozzie was disparaging people due to race or sexual orientation, then I'll be offended. But to say that those critical should become Cubs fans is pretty far down the list of things I find offensive. :shrug:

Jim Shorts
04-13-2010, 01:16 PM
The very definition of Mob Mentality can be found in this thread. So can the definition of Irony.



God love the Internets

gobears1987
04-13-2010, 01:19 PM
I hope Ozzie manages this ballclub for another 20 years.
Agreed 100%

Noneck
04-13-2010, 01:20 PM
Exactly. If Ozzie was disparaging people due to race or sexual orientation, then I'll be offended.

I believe he has already done one of those two previously.

Personally, I dont care what he says as long as the team wins. Many others do care though. But if I was his boss, I would care and I would not allow him to say any disparaging comments about fans, that just question his managerial decisions.

SI1020
04-13-2010, 01:26 PM
LMAO!!!:rolling: So many of you guys just crack me up! Seriously! I have read and re-read the posts here, and am still completely dumbfounded, as to how you have been so "offended" by Ozzie. Wow! Do you not get it? You fell for the OG trap!!!

You're all mad at him, and all he is doing (and successfully, I might add) is trying to take on the ire of the fans, rather than have it go against his guys on the field. He does this all the time, and you're not wise to it yet? Ugh, what's even more sad is that you're getting crazy about this after only 1 WEEK of the regular season. I fear for what will happen here come :gasp: Memorial Day! Sorry but I don't think he's that smart.

Frontman
04-13-2010, 01:36 PM
Sorry but I don't think he's that smart.

No, he's even smarter than what people give him credit for.

gobears1987
04-13-2010, 01:39 PM
Sorry but I don't think he's that smart.

I met Jerry Reinsdorf two years ago at an AEPi event and he said two things about Ozzie Guillen. The first thing he said was that Ozzie will have a job so long as he wants one here. The second thing he said was that everything Ozzie says has a purpose. He knows what he is saying every time he opens his mouth and says what he says for a reason. He is far more intelligent than he appears to be. I think Jerry Reinsdorf is a far better source than any of us.

skobabe8
04-13-2010, 02:06 PM
I believe he has already done one of those two previously.

Personally, I dont care what he says as long as the team wins. Many others do care though. But if I was his boss, I would care and I would not allow him to say any disparaging comments about fans, that just question his managerial decisions.

You seemed to care earlier in the thread.

Maybe you don't just don't like Ozzie, I dont know. But if that's the case, just be honest.

Noneck
04-13-2010, 02:17 PM
You seemed to care earlier in the thread.

Maybe you don't just don't like Ozzie, I dont know. But if that's the case, just be honest.

Honestly? He amuses the living crap out of me. As a manager I look at him as average.

But I like for the Sox to win and in order to win, one of the things they need is money to spend. Comments like these, alienates fans and that's not good for business.

SI1020
04-13-2010, 02:29 PM
Honestly? He amuses the living crap out of me. As a manager I look at him as average.

But I like for the Sox to win and in order to win, one of the things they need is money to spend. Comments like these, alienates fans and that's not good for business. I was going to agree with you, but then how can I when everything he says is calculated and way above us?

spawn
04-13-2010, 02:30 PM
I believe he has already done one of those two previously.

No, he called Jay Mariotti an offensive word I won't say here. He wasn't disparaging anyone. He was just ignorant. And that is a great deal worse than telling a Sox fan to be a Cubs fan.

Noneck
04-13-2010, 02:42 PM
No, he called Jay Mariotti an offensive word I won't say here. He wasn't disparaging anyone. He was just ignorant. And that is a great deal worse than telling a Sox fan to be a Cubs fan.

I also remember him using a term about sexual orientation to a friend coming into the dugout.

And yes these terms are disparaging to people of that sexual orientation and they also buy tickets to see the Sox.

spawn
04-13-2010, 03:25 PM
I also remember him using a term about sexual orientation to a friend coming into the dugout.

And yes these terms are disparaging to people of that sexual orientation and they also buy tickets to see the Sox.
Your argument has been about telling someone to be a Cubs fan was crossing the line. You said you couldn't think of anything worse. I never said he ddoesn't say stupid things. I've said he does. I've said it in this thread. But what has also been pointed out are far worse thnigs you can say to a Sox fan. So he said to become a Cubs fan. Big deal. :shrug:

Frontman
04-13-2010, 04:14 PM
Your argument has been about telling someone to be a Cubs fan was crossing the line. You said you couldn't think of anything worse. I never said he ddoesn't say stupid things. I've said he does. I've said it in this thread. But what has also been pointed out are far worse thnigs you can say to a Sox fan. So he said to become a Cubs fan. Big deal. :shrug:

Exactly. You want to add this to the long list of Ozzie's comments; then feel free to do so. But, to say this is "the worst" he could say?

To quote Ocho-cinco;

"Child please."

Ozzie was being an idiot. He wasn't being a bigot. HUGE difference.

Noneck
04-13-2010, 04:29 PM
Your argument has been about telling someone to be a Cubs fan was crossing the line. You said you couldn't think of anything worse. I never said he ddoesn't say stupid things. I've said he does. I've said it in this thread. But what has also been pointed out are far worse thnigs you can say to a Sox fan. So he said to become a Cubs fan. Big deal. :shrug:

There are worse things he could say but to go be a cub fan ranks right up near the top when he says it to the fan base. Maybe its possible but I cant imagine Ozwaldo using derogatory sexual or ethnic slurs to a Sox fan base. And even he knows if he did that, hes gone and would have trouble finding employment elsewhere.

spawn
04-13-2010, 04:40 PM
There are worse things he could say but to go be a cub fan ranks right up near the top when he says it to the fan base. Maybe its possible but I cant imagine Ozwaldo using derogatory sexual or ethnic slurs to a Sox fan base. And even he knows if he did that, hes gone and would have trouble finding employment elsewhere.
:facepalm:

I'm done.

Noneck
04-13-2010, 06:26 PM
:facepalm:

I'm done.

I feel the same.

PennStater98r
04-13-2010, 06:41 PM
That's crazy. Of course there are times when Beckham should bunt. He's not a 40 homer guy, and he can handle the bat.

As soon as the hit and run failed, I knew there'd be people screaming about it being a bad decision, yet it was one of the alternatives that people said Ozzie should have used last night to stay out of the double play instead of bunting. Knowing what to do after the fact is real easy.

I've not read the whole thread, but at least one person is keeping his head in this. Ozzie's not criticizing our loyalty or our fandom. He's criticizing the fact that so many fans are decrying that the season's over after a four game losing streak - that and Ozzie can't win. He does the things that people wanted him to do last year. Less station-to-station ball. More hit and run. More sacrifices. Less GIDP. Less popups with RISP. Less stranded base runners.

I dunno. I think some Sox fans really to need to hear this from him. Many Sox fans know what they're talking about and keep the passion where it belongs - around the play of our team. It reminds me of Cubs fans calling for the head of Lou for not being passionate enough. I applaud Ozzie's comments - because it keeps the press from talking about the poor offense - taking pressure off the players. Keep it up Ozzie!

PennStater98r
04-13-2010, 06:51 PM
Beckham bunting and Sox fans VS Ozzie as a result has really separated the knowledgable Sox fans from the questionable Sox fans.

Bottom line is, all of the "armchair managers" around here and calling into the Score need to realize that as someone else already posted, Beckham is not a 40 homer guy. He should have to bunt once in a while. Especially if he is capable.

Fans need to be fans and let managment manage the team. Yes we are entitled to our opinions but to let something as simple as a couple of bunts whip the fanbase into a frenzy and call for the manager's head is beyond ludicrous.

Thank you!

doublem23
04-13-2010, 06:57 PM
Thank you!

:rolleyes:

Everybody should agree with everything.

skobabe8
04-13-2010, 07:45 PM
:rolleyes:

Everybody should agree with everything.

I disagree.

:cool:

Ranger
04-13-2010, 08:17 PM
Beckham bunting and Sox fans VS Ozzie as a result has really separated the knowledgable Sox fans from the questionable Sox fans.

Bottom line is, all of the "armchair managers" around here and calling into the Score need to realize that as someone else already posted, Beckham is not a 40 homer guy. He should have to bunt once in a while. Especially if he is capable.

Fans need to be fans and let managment manage the team. Yes we are entitled to our opinions but to let something as simple as a couple of bunts whip the fanbase into a frenzy and call for the manager's head is beyond ludicrous.

Thank you!

Pretty much. Gordon Beckham is not yet an offensive God and he certainly isn't above laying down a bunt. To say he should "never be bunting ever. EVER." is completely and absurdly ridiculous.

:rolleyes:

Everybody should agree with everything.

That's not what's being said. It isn't all or nothing. What people are saying is that calling for his job because he called for a bunt (when, ironically, Sox fans have been clamoring for more 'small ball' for the last 5 years) is kind of stupid.

doublem23
04-13-2010, 08:34 PM
That's not what's being said. It isn't all or nothing. What people are saying is that calling for his job because he called for a bunt (when, ironically, Sox fans have been clamoring for more 'small ball' for the last 5 years) is kind of stupid.

What on Earth are you talking about? Nobody jumped the line over Gordon's bunt, at best, this is just further proof to the people who already don't like Ozzie as manager that he doesn't call a smart game. I'm sorry, Gordon is batting #2, having your #2 hitter bunt is almost always a stupid call, especially when your lead-off hitter's only discernible talent is his ability to run quickly. It takes some serious creative reading to think that Gordon bunting is the one and only reason some people are not pleased with Ozzie as our manager.

Craig Grebeck
04-13-2010, 08:50 PM
Pretty much. Gordon Beckham is not yet an offensive God and he certainly isn't above laying down a bunt. To say he should "never be bunting ever. EVER." is completely and absurdly ridiculous.



That's not what's being said. It isn't all or nothing. What people are saying is that calling for his job because he called for a bunt (when, ironically, Sox fans have been clamoring for more 'small ball' for the last 5 years) is kind of stupid.
You know what's stupider? Asserting that all fans wanted "smallball." Those fans are stupid.

skobabe8
04-13-2010, 09:20 PM
You know what's stupider? Asserting that all fans wanted "smallball." Those fans are stupid.

This thread is turning epic.

If you are a poster on WSI who has been sick and tired of the softball team concept over the last few years that has won nothing, please raise your hand.

:peace:

(it was the closest I could find)

I want more manufacturing of runs. I guess I'm stupid. :?:

Frater Perdurabo
04-13-2010, 09:27 PM
No one ever had a problem with the Sox hitting "too many home runs."

However, many rightfully had a problem with the Sox seemingly only being able to score runs via the home run.

All we ever wanted was more versatility, like the 2005 Sox offense. They hit a lot of homers, but also had a lot of sac fly RBIs and hit well with RISP.

And it's pretty ****ing stupid to call on Beckham, who has extra-base power, to bunt in the seventh inning with no outs and Juan Pierre - one of the most prolific base stealers of this generation - on first base.

If anything, in that situation Ozzie should be giving Pierre the green light to steal second in the hopes that the opposing pitcher would groove Beckham a fastball.

But Ozzie didn't think a move ahead when he ordered Beckham to bunt. Best case scenario, Pierre moves to second, Beckham is out, there's one out, with Quentin at the plate. Of course the opposing manager is going to walk Quentin - an excellent power hitter who doesn't run that fast - to set up the double play, given that Paulie has a long history of GIDP-ing a lot.

canOcorn
04-13-2010, 09:33 PM
Pretty much. Gordon Beckham is not yet an offensive God and he certainly isn't above laying down a bunt. To say he should "never be bunting ever. EVER." is completely and absurdly ridiculous.


How many ****ing times does it need to be mentioned that scoring from 2B with one out is less likely than 1B and no outs? Even more so with your #2 hitter. :shakehead:

Frater Perdurabo
04-13-2010, 09:40 PM
But Ozzie didn't think a move ahead when he ordered Beckham to bunt. Best case scenario, Pierre moves to second, Beckham is out, there's one out, with Quentin at the plate. Of course the opposing manager is going to walk Quentin - an excellent power hitter who doesn't run that fast - to set up the double play, given that Paulie has a long history of GIDP-ing a lot.

And this is why Ozzie is not among the best strategists among MLB managers.

He's a good clubhouse leader. But he's not a good strategist, his talent evaluation is questionable, and he's stubbornly predictable in his "by the book" match-up based handling of the bullpen.

Slappy
04-13-2010, 09:47 PM
And this is why Ozzie is not among the best strategists among MLB managers.

He's a good clubhouse leader. But he's not a good strategist, his talent evaluation is questionable, and he's stubbornly predictable in his "by the book" match-up based handling of the bullpen.

Thank you.

Ozzie's baseball IQ leaves a lot to be desired. It's truth.

I'm going to go further though, because I question his ability to lead this team without causing animosity. His recent behavior is far from classy - it has nothing to do with being 'old school' like he claims he is.

Frater Perdurabo
04-13-2010, 09:55 PM
Thank you.

Ozzie's baseball IQ leaves a lot to be desired. It's truth.

I'm going to go further though, because I question his ability to lead this team without causing animosity. His recent behavior is far from classy - it has nothing to do with being 'old school' like he claims he is.

I do think he could be an excellent bunting instructor and infield instructor because he did those things very well as a player. But he hasn't shown much of an interest the "teaching" side of managing.

He's lousy at coaching and evaluating outfielders, though.

mcfish
04-14-2010, 12:24 AM
(when, ironically, Sox fans have been clamoring for more 'small ball' for the last 5 years)Fans may have wanted some, sure, but it's Ozzie that has been clamoring for it.

UChicagoHP
04-14-2010, 01:00 AM
Ozzie has supporters where it counts.
:gulp:

Nellie_Fox
04-14-2010, 01:25 AM
... I'm sorry, Gordon is batting #2, having your #2 hitter bunt is almost always a stupid call...I'm apparently completely out of touch with baseball then (note that I'm not using teal.) Being able to bunt used to be damn near a requirement for a #2 hitter. I know Nellie sure could (and did) bunt, even with Looie on base. Looie was without question the best base stealer of his generation, and a Sox rally then was often "Aparicio walks, steals second, Nellie gets him to third with a ground out to the right side, Aparicio scores on a sac fly," but sometimes Nellie would bunt him over to second. Change it up a little.

Before you point out that Beckham is more of a power threat than Nellie was, note that is not what you said. You said having the #2 hitter bunt is stupid, and if that's now true, the game has changed into something I don't recognize.

doublem23
04-14-2010, 01:45 AM
Before you point out that Beckham is more of a power threat than Nellie was, note that is not what you said. You said having the #2 hitter bunt is stupid, and if that's now true, the game has changed into something I don't recognize.

Well, there's a strong, strong case to be made that bunting is almost always a bad move, but yes, having the #2 hitter lay down a bunt has become increasingly less effective than letting him swing away. If you analyze every American League game in a 25-year period from 1977-1992, the odds of scoring a run with the #2 hitter batting, with a runner on first and no outs is 48.3%. The odds of scoring a run with the #3 hitter batting, a runner on 2nd, and 1 out is 43.9%. That would be like an NFL team willingly snapping the ball 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage on a FG attempt; why would you handicap yourself?

Source: http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/07/empirical_analy_1.php

Frontman
04-14-2010, 01:53 AM
Thank you.

Ozzie's baseball IQ leaves a lot to be desired. It's truth.

I'm going to go further though, because I question his ability to lead this team without causing animosity. His recent behavior is far from classy - it has nothing to do with being 'old school' like he claims he is.

Truth is something that is inarguable and quantifiable. Your statement that Ozzie's baseball IQ leaves a lot to be desired?

Can be argued and cannot be quantified.

You can question his ability to lead the team all you'd like. The fact that players stand by his leadership style prove that also is in error to say his leadership causes animosity.

The only animosity Ozzie causes are to his opponents and detractors. Not his players.

Ranger
04-14-2010, 02:10 AM
What on Earth are you talking about? Nobody jumped the line over Gordon's bunt, at best, this is just further proof to the people who already don't like Ozzie as manager that he doesn't call a smart game. I'm sorry, Gordon is batting #2, having your #2 hitter bunt is almost always a stupid call, especially when your lead-off hitter's only discernible talent is his ability to run quickly. It takes some serious creative reading to think that Gordon bunting is the one and only reason some people are not pleased with Ozzie as our manager.

Oh well then I must be imagining the hundreds of "Ozzie is an idiot for bunting Pierre to second" posts.

You know what's stupider? Asserting that all fans wanted "smallball." Those fans are stupid.

Then I must have been dreaming the last 4 years.

How many ****ing times does it need to be mentioned that scoring from 2B with one out is less likely than 1B and no outs? Even more so with your #2 hitter. :shakehead:

I know what the overall percentages are. Fully aware. But I also know that every situation is different and there are certain occasions where a team is better off guaranteeing that runner is in scoring position. The 9th inning of the game in question was one of those.

Thank you.

Ozzie's baseball IQ leaves a lot to be desired. It's truth.

I'm going to go further though, because I question his ability to lead this team without causing animosity. His recent behavior is far from classy - it has nothing to do with being 'old school' like he claims he is.

No, it's not truth. The truth is that he doesn't get nearly enough credit for hsi baseball IQ. And it's probably because he's tough to understand when he speaks.

People within the game of baseball don't agree with you.

doublem23
04-14-2010, 02:13 AM
Oh well then I must be imagining the hundreds of "Ozzie is an idiot for bunting Pierre to second" posts.

Yeah, but all those people would probably still want Ozzie fired even if he let Gordon swing away. It's not like they all thought Ozzie was a great manager and then, based on one called bunt, suddenly changed their mind. Ozzie's support has been steadily waning for several years now, for many reasons, not just because he wants to bunt with his #2 hitter.

Slappy
04-14-2010, 02:42 AM
Truth is something that is inarguable and quantifiable. Your statement that Ozzie's baseball IQ leaves a lot to be desired?

Can be argued and cannot be quantified.

You can question his ability to lead the team all you'd like. The fact that players stand by his leadership style prove that also is in error to say his leadership causes animosity.

The only animosity Ozzie causes are to his opponents and detractors. Not his players.

Thanks for the logic lesson.

Players have quarreled with Ozzie in the past. On the flip side, the majority of players are not going to start anything publicly with their manager, for obvious reasons.

No, it's not truth. The truth is that he doesn't get nearly enough credit for hsi baseball IQ. And it's probably because he's tough to understand when he speaks.

People within the game of baseball don't agree with you.

Please see Frontman's post for the truth.

Also, you apparently have a Sox radio show of some sort, thus providing you with a monopoly on White Sox truth.

In all seriousness, I'm sure I wouldn't have to look hard for someone "within the game of baseball" that would agree with me.

JB98
04-14-2010, 02:44 AM
Through eight games, the White Sox have scored 55 percent of their runs on homers.

Whether bunting with Beckham was the right move or not, I remain extremely skeptical that this team can "small ball" its way to the playoffs.

Of course, I've never been one of the small ball proponents anyway.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 07:07 AM
Then I must have been dreaming the last 4 years.

I guess if you limit it to the mouth-breathing masses that dial into your show after games, then you've got a point. Look around, not everyone wants "smallball."

Frontman
04-14-2010, 08:58 AM
In all seriousness, I'm sure I wouldn't have to look hard for someone "within the game of baseball" that would agree with me.

And you don't have to look hard for someone within the game of baseball to agree with the point that there were never dinosaurs.

Your point?

Tragg
04-14-2010, 09:02 AM
I know what the overall percentages are. Fully aware. But I also know that every situation is different and there are certain occasions where a team is better off guaranteeing that runner is in scoring position. The 9th inning of the game in question was one of those.


That may be true for most 9th innings, but not this 9th inning.
Beckham's bunt took the bat out of Quentin's hands and it was obvious before the bunt that would happen.
That hasn't been addressed.

SI1020
04-14-2010, 10:28 AM
I'm apparently completely out of touch with baseball then (note that I'm not using teal.) Being able to bunt used to be damn near a requirement for a #2 hitter. I know Nellie sure could (and did) bunt, even with Looie on base. Looie was without question the best base stealer of his generation, and a Sox rally then was often "Aparicio walks, steals second, Nellie gets him to third with a ground out to the right side, Aparicio scores on a sac fly," but sometimes Nellie would bunt him over to second. Change it up a little.

Before you point out that Beckham is more of a power threat than Nellie was, note that is not what you said. You said having the #2 hitter bunt is stupid, and if that's now true, the game has changed into something I don't recognize. The stats revolution has caused a rethinking of many time honored traditions, including the bunt. I have never liked the bunt. It's giving away an out on the idea that something good will then happen to get the runner home. I don't say never use it, I'm just particular about which situation. This was not one of them IMHO. Also you mention your namesake Nellie Fox, who was adept at the drag bunt, a totally lost art. Bunting for a base hit, now that's a bunt I do like.

canOcorn
04-14-2010, 11:19 AM
That may be true for most 9th innings, but not this 9th inning.
Beckham's bunt took the bat out of Quentin's hands and it was obvious before the bunt that would happen.
That hasn't been addressed.

Ab-so-****ing-look-ly. I cannot quantify Ozzie's value in the clubhouse, but he's a horrible in-game manager.

WhiteSox1989
04-14-2010, 11:33 AM
I don't care what Ozzie says, as long as the Sox win.

PennStater98r
04-14-2010, 03:19 PM
I guess if you limit it to the mouth-breathing masses that dial into your show after games, then you've got a point. Look around, not everyone wants "smallball."

Really nice Craig - insulting Ranger by calling people who agree with him "mouth breathers"

http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/mouth+breather

Mods - I thought we were not supposed to resort to personal attacks here - I know I've been warned of that for using language challenging the intelligence of others. Granted this is by calling his listeners slack-jawed, stupid people - but I think it also implies Ranger falls into that group.

On a related note, why is it that every ****ing person wants to insult and challenge your intelligence simply because you have a different opinion than they do? When the hell did this happen? It's disgusting (the practice of insulting others because they have a different opinion) - and Cubsfanian.

Craig Grebeck
04-14-2010, 03:21 PM
Really nice Craig - insulting Ranger by calling people who agree with him "mouth breathers"

http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/mouth+breather

Mods - I thought we were not supposed to resort to personal attacks here - I know I've been warned of that for using language challenging the intelligence of others. Granted this is by calling his listeners slack-jawed, stupid people - but I think it also implies Ranger falls into that group.

On a related note, why is it that every ****ing person wants to insult and challenge your intelligence simply because you have a different opinion than they do? When the hell did this happen? It's disgusting - and Cubsfanian.
Armchair moderating aside, referring to the folks that call into Chris' show as mouth-breathers is quite flattering. And just because they call into his show doesn't mean they agree with him.

If folks actually think the White Sox have been doomed since 2005 because of a lack of smallball, or that they won in 2005 because of smallball, I've got nothing to say to them.

Nellie_Fox
04-14-2010, 03:22 PM
...why is it that every ****ing person wants to insult and challenge your intelligence simply because you have a different opinion than they do?It's largely an internet phenomenon. It's a lot easier to be rude and bullying in the relative anonymity of the web. People will say stuff they would not dare say to someone's face. I think we do a much better job than most sites at keeping it to a minimum.

spawn
04-14-2010, 03:28 PM
Really nice Craig - insulting Ranger by calling people who agree with him "mouth breathers"

http://onlineslangdictionary.com/definition+of/mouth+breather

Mods - I thought we were not supposed to resort to personal attacks here - I know I've been warned of that for using language challenging the intelligence of others. Granted this is by calling his listeners slack-jawed, stupid people - but I think it also implies Ranger falls into that group.

1. How is labelling the people that call into Ranger's show "mouth breathers" an insult to Ranger? He doesn't control who calls into his show.

2. CG didn't attack anyone. Plain and simple. He's not in any violation of the posting rules. Just because you implied it was an attack doesn't make it so.

Please leave the moderating of posts to the mods and admins. If you have a problem with a particular post, there is the report button in the post. Use it next time, and we will decide if the post is in violation of the rules.

jdm2662
04-14-2010, 03:44 PM
It's largely an internet phenomenon. It's a lot easier to be rude and bullying in the relative anonymity of the web. People will say stuff they would not dare say to someone's face. I think we do a much better job than most sites at keeping it to a minimum.

In the movie Jay and Silent Bob Strikes Back, there was a message board that pretty much ripped them about everything. At the end of the movie, they went to each person's house (are you so and so??), and would pretty much kick the crap out of them. Most of the posters were high school kids. It was quite funny. But yes, since people can hide behind a computer (I'm talking to you Marrioti), they can be tough and cool...

RedHeadPaleHoser
04-14-2010, 04:14 PM
(I'm talking to you Marrioti)

I don't want crap in my Clubhouse - please don't use that name. :D:

Ranger
04-14-2010, 05:00 PM
Also, you apparently have a Sox radio show of some sort, thus providing you with a monopoly on White Sox truth.

In all seriousness, I'm sure I wouldn't have to look hard for someone "within the game of baseball" that would agree with me.

I didn't say anything about a monopoly, but I'm a little more informed on the small details, both public and off-record, than most people are. I wouldn't be doing my job if I weren't.

Sure, you can find a person here and there, but the vast majority of those I've talked to (non-Sox people) do not agree with you.


That may be true for most 9th innings, but not this 9th inning.
Beckham's bunt took the bat out of Quentin's hands and it was obvious before the bunt that would happen.
That hasn't been addressed.

Quentin saw at least one hittable pitch in that AB. They didn't decide to make the walk intentional until it was a 3-1 count.

And in case you haven't noticed, Beckham is not, and has not been, hitting the ball all that well just yet. I think it's obvious Ozzie saw guaranteed runner at second with one out a better situation than runner at first one out.

You can argue that you would've preferred Ozzie to let him swing away...that's fine. But to call it an absolutely stupid move, is just plain wrong. He had an option in that situation, and both options have their limitations, but both are also viable. People here calling him an idiot for making that call, but it clearly was not idiotic. Debatable? Yes. Idiotic? No. Everythng in this game is not absolute.

canOcorn
04-14-2010, 05:18 PM
You can argue that you would've preferred Ozzie to let him swing away...that's fine. But to call it an absolutely stupid move, is just plain wrong. He had an option in that situation, and both options have their limitations, but both are also viable. People here calling him an idiot for making that call, but it clearly was not idiotic. Debatable? Yes. Idiotic? No. Everythng in this game is not absolute.

Stop! It's not even ****ing debatable. It was the wrong ****ing move. Get over it. Ozzie ****ed up, he does it all the time. We'll be bitching about his next ****up within the next few days. Hopefully, he's doing a great job in the clubhouse.

Jim Shorts
04-14-2010, 05:48 PM
Stop! It's not even ****ing debatable. It was the wrong ****ing move. Get over it. Ozzie ****ed up, he does it all the time. We'll be bitching about his next ****up within the next few days. Hopefully, he's doing a great job in the clubhouse.


I'll tell you what...the fourth f-bomb in there is what changed my mind. You're right. How on god's earth has he spent 25+ years in professional baseball? He's ****ing DOLT!

PennStater98r
04-14-2010, 06:04 PM
1. How is labelling the people that call into Ranger's show "mouth breathers" an insult to Ranger? He doesn't control who calls into his show.

It's not that he's saying, "Ranger, you're an idiot." It's that he's implying that anyone who believes that White Sox fans want to see more smallball/ fundamentals practiced by Ozzie's players are "mouth breathers." Being that Ranger is someone that supports this thought and he's cited callers to his show who believe it as his support to his previous point - calling his support mouth breathers is dismissing his point with a subtle attack. Is it really an intelligent, thoughtout criticism to simply call them stupid? It's the whole:

Person A: I think this.
Person B: I think this - which is different than what you think.
Person A: Well, be that as it may - I have this proof or support in my thinking.
Person B: Your proof is stupid. (or) Your support is stupid. (this implies you too are stupid for believing in poor proof or poor support)

It may not be directly calling you stupid, but it certainly is implying that you are so because you believe in your opposing fact or can cite others that believe in your opposing fact.

2. CG didn't attack anyone. Plain and simple. He's not in any violation of the posting rules. Just because you implied it was an attack doesn't make it so.

I dunno - that's the problem with many people that post on the internet - they imply their insults. Sure other sites are much more profane and rude about it, but the people who believe themselves to be witty or clever will imply it. Call it a complete dismissal of your opinion. Call it being over-opinionated. I still see it as implying another's opinion is less than intelligent and therefore holds no value - when in reality - it really is nothing more than a difference of opinion. I too am guilty of being passionate - as in my earlier post in this thread about being tired of the mob-mentality of some White Sox fans calling for Ozzie's head. Am I right? No. Am I wrong? No. It's my opinion that he's doing a fine job given his situation. So maybe CG didn't mean to imply that Ranger is a mouth breather - or holds the same opinion as mouth breathers (what is someone who believes mouth breathers?).

Please leave the moderating of posts to the mods and admins. If you have a problem with a particular post, there is the report button in the post. Use it next time, and we will decide if the post is in violation of the rules.

I apologize for coming across as if you mods are not doing your jobs. CG had it right in that I was armchair moderating - and that was pretentious. That was not nor is not my intent in the least.

It's moreso to voice my opinion if being tired of the phenomenon that Nellie has spoken to. Regardless of the intelligence level of people that call into Ranger's show - that's not what bothered me - it was that those of us that believe Ozzie was fine for calling the Sac Bunt in the 7th are mouth breathers. I like the posts in this thread that cite statistics around scoring from 1st with 0 outs and scoring from 2nd with 1 out. That's the approach that actually made me think about the value - not name calling.

PennStater98r
04-14-2010, 06:16 PM
:tomatoaward:tomatoaward

I don't think anyone's dropped these in yet - who would have thunk it?

Frontman
04-14-2010, 06:21 PM
:tomatoaward:tomatoaward

I don't think anyone's dropped these in yet - who would have thunk it?

A hatred for Ozzie thread? I think its got a chance for at least 4 Tomato rewards.

Frontman
04-14-2010, 06:23 PM
I'll tell you what...the fourth f-bomb in there is what changed my mind. You're right. How on god's earth has he spent 25+ years in professional baseball? He's ****ing DOLT!

Now; on MLB the Show; does it show up as asterisks? Only asking; because I have a feeling all the naysayers replayed the game on the PS3 and clearly proved that Beckham should of swung......

Ranger
04-14-2010, 06:35 PM
Stop! It's not even ****ing debatable. It was the wrong ****ing move. Get over it. Ozzie ****ed up, he does it all the time. We'll be bitching about his next ****up within the next few days. Hopefully, he's doing a great job in the clubhouse.

Oh, well since you put it like that, you must be right.

Unfortunately, you're not right. You're pretty wrong, actually. The move WAS definitely debatable. If Konerko comes thorugh with a hit, we're not even talking about it. If Beckham doesn't bunt, and grounds into a double play, people are bitching that Ozzie should've put the runner in scoring position.

It's a debatable move, brother. Scream about it all you want, but it's a debatable move. It is not an absolute.

canOcorn
04-14-2010, 06:49 PM
Oh, well since you put it like that, you must be right.

Unfortunately, you're not right. You're pretty wrong, actually. The move WAS definitely debatable. If Konerko comes thorugh with a hit, we're not even talking about it. If Beckham doesn't bunt, and grounds into a double play, people are bitching that Ozzie should've put the runner in scoring position.

It's a debatable move, brother. Scream about it all you want, but it's a debatable move. It is not an absolute.

It's the wrong move no matter how you try to paint it. It's not debatable.

[/end thread]

Ranger
04-14-2010, 06:56 PM
Stop! It's not even ****ing debatable. It was the wrong ****ing move. Get over it. Ozzie ****ed up, he does it all the time. We'll be bitching about his next ****up within the next few days. Hopefully, he's doing a great job in the clubhouse.

Ha. Alright. You've proved it.

AZChiSoxFan
04-14-2010, 06:59 PM
If Beckham doesn't bunt, and grounds into a double play, people are bitching that Ozzie should've put the runner in scoring position.



This is spot on. As Ranger and others have pointed out, it's a lot easier to manage the games after they have been played. My wife will attest to the fact that I am very good at doing this.

Ranger
04-14-2010, 07:13 PM
This is spot on. As Ranger and others have pointed out, it's a lot easier to manage the games after they have been played. My wife will attest to the fact that I am very good at doing this.

But it's not debatable. And I know it's not because I got yelled at.

canOcorn
04-14-2010, 07:22 PM
Ha. Alright. You've proved it.

The theory has been proved in this thread. :tiphat:

asindc
04-14-2010, 07:38 PM
I met Jerry Reinsdorf two years ago at an AEPi event and he said two things about Ozzie Guillen. The first thing he said was that Ozzie will have a job so long as he wants one here. The second thing he said was that everything Ozzie says has a purpose. He knows what he is saying every time he opens his mouth and says what he says for a reason. He is far more intelligent than he appears to be. I think Jerry Reinsdorf is a far better source than any of us.

I continue to be astonished at how many Sox fans fail to realize this. Even many casual non-Sox-fan observers have noticed that his "act" has a purpose.

Ranger
04-14-2010, 07:54 PM
The theory has been proved in this thread. :tiphat:

No it has not. Proof means there is no room for another good philosophy or possibility. Nobody has proven that Pierre shouldn't have been bunted over. There are good reasons to have let Beckham swing away and there are good reasons to have him bunt. Therefore, it's debatable. There is just no question about that.

In the 7th inning, there are fewer good reasons to have laid down a bunt, but the 9th was a different story.

SI1020
04-14-2010, 07:59 PM
I continue to be astonished at how many Sox fans fail to realize this. Even many casual non-Sox-fan observers have noticed that his "act" has a purpose. Be astonished then. Ozzie has a history of shooting from the hip long before he ever became a manager. Let the legend continue. I'm not having it.

hi im skot
04-14-2010, 08:09 PM
http://www.funnyforumpics.com/forums/This-Thread-Delivers/1/pizzathreaddelivers.jpg

canOcorn
04-14-2010, 08:27 PM
No it has not. Proof means there is no room for another good philosophy or possibility. Nobody has proven that Pierre shouldn't have been bunted over. There are good reasons to have let Beckham swing away and there are good reasons to have him bunt. Therefore, it's debatable. There is just no question about that.

In the 7th inning, there are fewer good reasons to have laid down a bunt, but the 9th was a different story.

Sure, there's a possibility that anything can happen, but I'll pass on playing for something that has a much smaller chance of happening. Maybe we'll play to put a runner in position to score on a balk.

He shouldn't have bunted. That's been proven in this thread. Beyond any shred of doubt with numbers and anyone defending him on that move is just blind fanboi'ism or paid to defend that position.

Ranger
04-14-2010, 08:38 PM
Sure, there's a possibility that anything can happen, but I'll pass on playing for something that has a much smaller chance of happening. Maybe we'll play to put a runner in position to score on a balk.

He shouldn't have bunted. That's been proven in this thread. Beyond any shred of doubt with numbers and anyone defending him on that move is just blind fanboi'ism or paid to defend that position.

You clearly don't understand what "debatable" means and you obviously don't know what "proof" is. You're right about one thing, this discussion should've been closed 15 posts ago. At this point, I'm just howling at the moon.

hi im skot
04-14-2010, 08:42 PM
At this point, I'm just howling at the moon.

Yeah, but it's rather entertaining for the rest of us. :thumbsup:

spawn
04-14-2010, 09:00 PM
He shouldn't have bunted. That's been proven in this thread. Beyond any shred of doubt with numbers and anyone defending him on that move is just blind fanboi'ism or paid to defend that position.
Nothing has been proven. It's all a matter of opinion. Unless you looked into the future and saw Beckham either drive Pierre in or get him to 3rd with a basehit, you can't prove with the utmost certainty that the result would've been different had Beckham not sacrificed. There are no absolutels in this debate. That is a fact.

jabrch
04-14-2010, 09:12 PM
:dtroll:Please dont feed the trolls.:dtroll:

TornLabrum
04-14-2010, 09:13 PM
Nothing has been proven. It's all a matter of opinion. Unless you looked into the future and saw Beckham either drive Pierre in or get him to 3rd with a basehit, you can't prove with the utmost certainty that the result would've been different had Beckahm not sacrificed. There are no absolutels in this debate. That is a fact.

According to quantum physics, whenever a decision is made an alternate universe is created where the decision is not made. Now all we have to do is find a way to get to that alternate universe and find out what happened when Beckham swung away.

BTW, it's a way back now and I'm too lazy to look up who said it, but to the person who said a #2 hitter should never bunt, tell that to Nellie Fox (the player, not the WSI mod).

spawn
04-14-2010, 09:15 PM
According to quantum physics, whenever a decision is made an alternate universe is created where the decision is not made. Now all we have to do is find a way to get to that alternate universe and find out what happened when Beckham swung away.
You have just described an episode of "Lost". :redneck

kevingrt
04-14-2010, 09:25 PM
You have just described an episode of "Lost". :redneck

Beckham = Desmond??? Can live in alternate universes?

voodoochile
04-14-2010, 09:30 PM
Beckham = Desmond??? Can live in alternate universes?

Have to get the heck out of this wormhole first.

Oh and one of the current thoughts on wormholes is that inside they are pure chaos, nothing survives. So, if indeed our universe did form inside a wormhole the odds are the physical rules of our universe won't be much good in another universe and any attempt to visit one would lead to the destruction of that which attempted the visit.

Hmmmm... maybe we can ship all the episodes of Lost there and at least gain something positive... :whistle:

asindc
04-14-2010, 09:34 PM
according to quantum physics, whenever a decision is made an alternate universe is created where the decision is not made. Now all we have to do is find a way to get to that alternate universe and find out what happened when beckham swung away.

Btw, it's a way back now and i'm too lazy to look up who said it, but to the person who said a #2 hitter should never bunt, tell that to nellie fox (the player, not the wsi mod).

:d:

Frontman
04-14-2010, 09:52 PM
You have just described an episode of "Lost". :redneck

And here I thought was going off on a explanation of how a TARDIS worked.

Or to paraphrase the coolest time travel show Stateside:

"Theorizing one could bunt from the #2 hole, young Gordon Beckham stepped into the batter's and vanished."

canOcorn
04-14-2010, 10:15 PM
Nothing has been proven. It's all a matter of opinion. Unless you looked into the future and saw Beckham either drive Pierre in or get him to 3rd with a basehit, you can't prove with the utmost certainty that the result would've been different had Beckham not sacrificed. There are no absolutels in this debate. That is a fact.

No. The statistics have shown that Ozzie made the wrong call. The odds were much better that we score a run with Beckham swinging away instead of making an out.

hi im skot
04-14-2010, 10:37 PM
No. The statistics have shown that Ozzie made the wrong call. The odds were much better that we score a run with Beckham swinging away instead of making an out.

C'mon, give it up, man.

You can use stats to prove just about whatever the hell you want.

canOcorn
04-14-2010, 10:44 PM
C'mon, give it up, man.

You can use stats to prove just about whatever the hell you want.

:whiner: god forbid someone use something to back up their position. Ozzie ****ed up. He's got no defense other than a 'gut' feeling. And that gut feeling usually doesn't pan out in this instance.

Frontman
04-14-2010, 11:03 PM
:whiner: god forbid someone use something to back up their position. Ozzie ****ed up. He's got no defense other than a 'gut' feeling. And that gut feeling usually doesn't pan out in this instance.

Yeah, never follow your gut. Granted, if we followed only "hard science" we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not just on a computer mind you; but nobody would of ever transversed the ocean to arrive in North America to begin with......

canOcorn
04-14-2010, 11:13 PM
Yeah, never follow your gut. Granted, if we followed only "hard science" we wouldn't be having this conversation. Not just on a computer mind you; but nobody would of ever transversed the ocean to arrive in North America to begin with......


:thud: wait a minute.... :thud:

Dub25
04-14-2010, 11:18 PM
Just checked in and after a few weeks of not posting... I wish I never saw this thread. I'm 34 years old and before Oz, I never saw a manager win the World Series. Yeah, maybe Kenny deserves some credit for 05 but after that season he built softball teams and then threw Oz under the bus when it came to Oz and Thome this year. Well, don't know about the rest of you but I'm ready to try something different on offense this year. And if Oz fails, oh well, Kenny failed since 06 with his his slo-pitch softball lineup and Jerry still employs him.

doublem23
04-14-2010, 11:24 PM
I continue to be astonished at how many Sox fans fail to realize this. Even many casual non-Sox-fan observers have noticed that his "act" has a purpose.

Wow, you mean Jerry Reinsdorf didn't lay into one of his employees at a social function with a bunch of college kids? PAINT ME SHOCKED.