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Moses_Scurry
04-06-2010, 09:22 AM
I did this the last couple years, so I'll do it again this year in celebration of the 2005 White Sox, who went wire to wire as one of few teams to complete the difficult feat. A couple disclaimers: I will only keep track at the end of the day's games. If team A wins at 3:00 in the afternoon, and team B wins at 11:00 that night, they're both still alive. I'm not sure if I should punish TB and Baltimore for having not played yet. I'll leave them off for now, and see how things go.

So, without further run-on sentences, here are the teams that can still potentially go wire to wire in 2010:

Boston, White Sox, Detroit, Texas, LAAA, Seattle, Philadelphia, Atlanta, NY Mets, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Colorado, Arizona, and San Fransisco.

I'll update as teams fall off the list.

Johnny Mostil
04-06-2010, 10:23 AM
I'm not sure if I should punish TB and Baltimore for having not played yet. I'll leave them off for now, and see how things go.


Fun idea, but I'd keep the Rays and the Orioles for now (or wait to see whichever wins their game today and keep that one). If you don't, then the '55 Dodgers were not one of the teams to go wire-to-wire. The Cubs were 2-0 and the Braves 1-0 before the Dodgers took the field that year.

Moses_Scurry
04-06-2010, 12:36 PM
Fun idea, but I'd keep the Rays and the Orioles for now (or wait to see whichever wins their game today and keep that one). If you don't, then the '55 Dodgers were not one of the teams to go wire-to-wire. The Cubs were 2-0 and the Braves 1-0 before the Dodgers took the field that year.

The problem with this is that if the Red cubs win again, then they will still be ahead of whoever wins between the Rays/Orioles. As a result, there will be a minimum of three full days beginning the season that the Rays/Orioles were behind the Red Sox. What happens if the Red Sox win their first 10 games and the Rays win THEIR first 10 games? Then the Rays would be in 2nd for 13-14 days to open the season!

Decision made: It's not my fault they didn't play yesterday when every other team did play. I could see keeping them in if there were a rainout that was made up today or something like that. If the Red Sox lose, then the Rays/Orioles winner will be counted, because they will be in first place at the conclusion of their opening game. If the Red Sox win, tough break Rays/Orioles, better luck next year.

DumpJerry
04-06-2010, 12:51 PM
The problem with this is that if the Red cubs win again, then they will still be ahead of whoever wins between the Rays/Orioles. As a result, there will be a minimum of three full days beginning the season that the Rays/Orioles were behind the Red Sox. What happens if the Red Sox win their first 10 games and the Rays win THEIR first 10 games? Then the Rays would be in 2nd for 13-14 days to open the season!

Decision made: It's not my fault they didn't play yesterday when every other team did play. I could see keeping them in if there were a rainout that was made up today or something like that. If the Red Sox lose, then the Rays/Orioles winner will be counted, because they will be in first place at the conclusion of their opening game. If the Red Sox win, tough break Rays/Orioles, better luck next year.
If a team falls out of first this week because they lost, then they're out. If they are raw number of wins behind the division leader, but tied with a 1.000 win percentage, they're still in. The '05 White Sox were annointed wire-to-wire by MLB because they technically fell 1/2 game behind, IIRC, the Blue Jays in April when the Jays won on a day the Sox were off, but since the Sox won their next game, they were able to preserve wire-to-wire status.

TommyJohn
04-06-2010, 12:57 PM
If a team falls out of first this week because they lost, then they're out. If they are raw number of wins behind the division leader, but tied with a 1.000 win percentage, they're still in. The '05 White Sox were annointed wire-to-wire by MLB because they technically fell 1/2 game behind, IIRC, the Blue Jays in April when the Jays won on a day the Sox were off, but since the Sox won their next game, they were able to preserve wire-to-wire status.They were still w-t-w in the division that year even if they fell 1/2 game behind Toronto.

TommyJohn
04-06-2010, 12:59 PM
If you don't, then the '55 Dodgers were not one of the teams to go wire-to-wire. The Cubs were 2-0 and the Braves 1-0 before the Dodgers took the field that year.I still don't get why the 1955 Dodgers are counted as a w-t-w team.

DumpJerry
04-06-2010, 01:12 PM
They were still w-t-w in the division that year even if they fell 1/2 game behind Toronto.
MLB's official line is that the White Sox were w-t-w for the entire AL in '05. That makes us and the '27 Yankees the only teams to go w-t-w and sweep the World Series. IIRC, it's in the Hall of Fame, so it must be official (it is also in the MLB-sponsored DVD celebrating the '05 Sox).

Johnny Mostil
04-06-2010, 01:29 PM
If a team falls out of first this week because they lost, then they're out. If they are raw number of wins behind the division leader, but tied with a 1.000 win percentage, they're still in.

I agree with this.

I still don't get why the 1955 Dodgers are counted as a w-t-w team.

They started the season 10-0. At conclusion of play on 4/22/1955 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/standings.cgi?date=1955-04-22), the day on which they lost their first game, they had a three-game lead--and, of course, stayed in first the rest of the year. What else did they need to do to go "wire-to-wire"?

Moses_Scurry
04-06-2010, 01:49 PM
It's true that you could win your first 30 games, and still be in 2nd place if another team duplicates your feat only having a head start, due to scheduling differences or rainouts. I guess it is in how literal you want to interpret "wire to wire". For the purpose of my update, I am thinking in terms of teams leading their respective divisions, however I could do the entire AL or NL or even MLB. The problem with being too literal is that the Red Sox are the only team that can go "wire to wire" for the entire AL or MLB just because they played a day before everybody else.

I don't understand why the Rays and Orioles didn't play yesterday when everyone else played, but I can't be too liberal in giving out the head starts. If the Rays win and the Red Sox lose, there will only be two days separating the two teams, plus the Rays will never have been in 2nd place after having played at least one game. If both teams win, the Rays will have been in 2nd place for at least 3 days AND will be in 2nd place after having played at least one game. In my book that disqualifies them. If they have a problem with it, they should take it up with the schedulers that put them a day after every other team had their openers.

Johnny Mostil
04-06-2010, 01:56 PM
It's true that you could win your first 30 games, and still be in 2nd place if another team duplicates your feat only having a head start, due to scheduling differences or rainouts. I guess it is in how literal you want to interpret "wire to wire". For the purpose of my update, I am thinking in terms of teams leading their respective divisions, however I could do the entire AL or NL or even MLB. The problem with being too literal is that the Red Sox are the only team that can go "wire to wire" for the entire AL or MLB just because they played a day before everybody else.

I don't understand why the Rays and Orioles didn't play yesterday when everyone else played, but I can't be too liberal in giving out the head starts. If the Rays win and the Red Sox lose, there will only be two days separating the two teams, plus the Rays will never have been in 2nd place after having played at least one game. If both teams win, the Rays will have been in 2nd place for at least 3 days AND will be in 2nd place after having played at least one game. In my book that disqualifies them. If they have a problem with it, they should take it up with the schedulers that put them a day after every other team had their openers.

Fair enough. And if I disagreed strongly enough then I could start my own thread.:wink: But don't be surprised if, say, the Rays were to start 10-0 and win it all, that then they'd be called "wire-to-wire" champions.

downstairs
04-06-2010, 02:09 PM
I think its pretty simple. If they're tied in winning percentage with the first place teams (1.000 would be the only way for this to happen), I count them in 1st place.

Once these teams start losing, the record and winning percentage are all that matters.

I never knew the Sox ended an off day in 2nd place. (and not undefeated) That's an interesting one. I guess the key is for each team to be counted at the end of each of their games. So their off day doesn't count.

If they're in 1st after game 33, go under during an off day, and win to take first in game 34... their streak is still good.

So I guess you just can't take someone off the list if they didn't play.

Huisj
04-06-2010, 02:34 PM
How about judge it at the start by how many games out teams are in the loss column?

If you have a '0' in the L column when other teams start to lose, you can still go wire-to-wire.

Johnny Mostil
04-06-2010, 03:15 PM
How about judge it at the start by how many games out teams are in the loss column?

If you have a '0' in the L column when other teams start to lose, you can still go wire-to-wire.

Good idea. Or, in two weeks, check who's in first place, and see if they've been there all year.

mantis1212
04-06-2010, 06:21 PM
Until I read this thread I had no idea that the 2005 wire-to-wire crown included the whole league. I thought it was just the Central- interesting.

TommyJohn
04-06-2010, 09:12 PM
I agree with this.



They started the season 10-0. At conclusion of play on 4/22/1955 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/standings.cgi?date=1955-04-22), the day on which they lost their first game, they had a three-game lead--and, of course, stayed in first the rest of the year. What else did they need to do to go "wire-to-wire"?Didn't you read your quote that I highlighted? The day Brooklyn won to go 1-0, the Cubs had already played and were in first place. So, technically Brooklyn was not in first every day of the season; or at least the point where their season started. But if the rule is they were in first after having played the same number of games as the Cubs, then I see it. That must be how MLB counts it.

soxinem1
04-06-2010, 09:24 PM
I know the White Sox looked sharp beating a potential last-place team, and many of us are excited about this season's prospects, but isn't it a bit early to be wondering about this??:scratch:

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-06-2010, 10:27 PM
I know the White Sox looked sharp beating a potential last-place team, and many of us are excited about this season's prospects, but isn't it a bit early to be wondering about this??:scratch:

Could not have said it any better. And yes of course the WSox went w-t-w for the entire AL.

Huisj
04-06-2010, 10:47 PM
Could not have said it any better. And yes of course the WSox went w-t-w for the entire AL.

I think the point of it is to track how deep into the season teams throughout the league keep an early first place lead. It's not just for the Sox.

Huisj
04-06-2010, 10:55 PM
It's true that you could win your first 30 games, and still be in 2nd place if another team duplicates your feat only having a head start, due to scheduling differences or rainouts. I guess it is in how literal you want to interpret "wire to wire". For the purpose of my update, I am thinking in terms of teams leading their respective divisions, however I could do the entire AL or NL or even MLB. The problem with being too literal is that the Red Sox are the only team that can go "wire to wire" for the entire AL or MLB just because they played a day before everybody else.

I don't understand why the Rays and Orioles didn't play yesterday when everyone else played, but I can't be too liberal in giving out the head starts. If the Rays win and the Red Sox lose, there will only be two days separating the two teams, plus the Rays will never have been in 2nd place after having played at least one game. If both teams win, the Rays will have been in 2nd place for at least 3 days AND will be in 2nd place after having played at least one game. In my book that disqualifies them. If they have a problem with it, they should take it up with the schedulers that put them a day after every other team had their openers.

To me, here's the issue. Let's imagine a start of the season like this (completely made up, not based on the actual schedule at all):

Day 1: (Boston wins, TB doesn't play)
BOS 1-0
TB 0-0

Day 2: (both teams win, neither has a loss)
BOS 2-0
TB 1-0

Day 3: (both teams win again)
BOS 3-0
TB 2-0

Day 4: (Boston loses, TB has an off day or rainout or something like that)
TB 2-0
BOS 3-1
(TB is now in 1st place alone since Boston loses)

Day 5: (both teams lose, TB leads in winning percentage though they are in a virtual tie)
TB 2-1
BOS 3-2

Now, let's say everyone else in the division is also worse than 2-1 at this point. TB is ahead in the standings, and never has had more losses than Boston. But, since they started later and slower, their 2-1 record is actually worse than where Boston was after they had played 3 games. If TB stays in first place from this point on, is that wire-to-wire?

Johnny Mostil
04-06-2010, 10:59 PM
Didn't you read your quote that I highlighted? The day Brooklyn won to go 1-0, the Cubs had already played and were in first place. So, technically Brooklyn was not in first every day of the season; or at least the point where their season started. But if the rule is they were in first after having played the same number of games as the Cubs, then I see it. That must be how MLB counts it.

Why, no! I never read anything I write!

My point was you shouldn't "punish"--the OP's word--teams for not having yet played a game. And, if you were to do so, then the '55 Dodgers--which I had thought were widely acknowledged as a wire-to-wire team--wouldn't count as such, even though they won their first ten games (and I think they should count as such). Which is why--in the exact same post you most recently quoted--I said I also agreed with the point about a team having a 1.000 win percentage still being eligible for "wire-to-wire," regardless of games played. And, for that matter, why I agreed with the later point about a team with no losses still being eligible.

Beyond that, if you're going to go with the first day of the season rule, then, I assume, for many seasons in the NL only one of two teams were eligible: the Reds or whoever they played in the opener.

My apologies for not previously making all that clear. Is it clear (as mud?) now?

Johnny Mostil
04-06-2010, 11:01 PM
To me, here's the issue. Let's imagine a start of the season like this (completely made up, not based on the actual schedule at all):

Day 1: (Boston wins, TB doesn't play)
BOS 1-0
TB 0-0

Day 2: (both teams win, neither has a loss)
BOS 2-0
TB 1-0

Day 3: (both teams win again)
BOS 3-0
TB 2-0

Day 4: (Boston loses, TB has an off day or rainout or something like that)
TB 2-0
BOS 3-1
(TB is now in 1st place alone since Boston loses)

Day 5: (both teams lose, TB leads in winning percentage though they are in a virtual tie)
TB 2-1
BOS 3-2

Now, let's say everyone else in the division is also worse than 2-1 at this point. TB is ahead in the standings, and never has had more losses than Boston. But, since they started later and slower, their 2-1 record is actually worse than where Boston was after they had played 3 games. If TB stays in first place from this point on, is that wire-to-wire?

To me, yes. Your mileage may vary.

Adding: while I appreciate what the OP is trying to do here, I think one of the problems is many times you can't tell whether a baseball team has gone wire-to-wire until afterwards. It isn't like watching the undefeated teams of football fall one-by-one each season. (For that matter, did the Thursday-night opener between the Titans and Steelers this year really have any effect on whether the Colts went "wire-to-wire" in the AFC?)

Back to the '55 Dodgers example: the team opened 10-0 and never trailed after that. Even though their season started two days after the Reds and Cubs did, that team, to me, clearly went wire-to-wire.

CLUBHOUSE KID
04-06-2010, 11:40 PM
I think the point of it is to track how deep into the season teams throughout the league keep an early first place lead. It's not just for the Sox.

Oh I know. That's not why I said what I did lol

Moses_Scurry
04-07-2010, 08:57 AM
Some teams dropped off the map yesterday.

We're down to the following:
TBay (will have an * if they stay in first the rest of the way)
Sox
Det
Texas
Atl
Phil
NyMets
StL
Pitt
SF

As someone said, the purpose of this thread is not to track the 2010 Sox progression toward W-2-W.

The purpose is to track all teams, which is why it is in "Talking Baseball".

Another purpose is to celebrate the 2005 Sox who DID go W-2-W.

Moses_Scurry
04-08-2010, 09:24 AM
With Minnesota's win, the Sox :whiner: and Detroit fall out of the wire-2-wire race. Texas and the NY Mets also were removed from the running. This leaves only one AL team with the possibility:

T-Bay*
Atl
Phil
StL
Pitt
SFO

Of those teams, I'd say the Cards have the best chance if they can win a few more games before losing their first. I think the Braves and Phils will be trading spots for most of the season.

TwinKess
04-08-2010, 04:01 PM
With Minnesota's win, the Sox :whiner: and Detroit fall out of the wire-2-wire race. Texas and the NY Mets also were removed from the running. This leaves only one AL team with the possibility:

T-Bay*
Atl
Phil
StL
Pitt
SFO

Of those teams, I'd say the Cards have the best chance if they can win a few more games before losing their first. I think the Braves and Phils will be trading spots for most of the season.


I don't think you guys are out of the running for W2W. We've played three games, while you've only completed two. You have to wait for the end of the Sox's third game to determine W2W eligibility.

Moses_Scurry
04-11-2010, 07:06 AM
Sorry guys. I've been away from my computer the last couple days. Plus, the recent play of our Sox has put me in a bit of a foul mood.

As it stands currently, the three NL leaders are the only teams with the ability to go wire-2-wire this season:

StL
Phil
SF

We're only 5 games into the season, and every team has been eliminated but 3.

Moses_Scurry
04-28-2010, 12:05 PM
Haven't updated this in awhile, mostly because there was no movement to report. However, with the Phils taking a backseat to the Mets by 1/2 game and San Diego passing SFO for a few days, we are now down to one single team that can still go wire-to-wire for 2010.

The St. Louis Cardinals.

With the Cards being 3.5 games up on 2nd place, it may be awhile before they are eliminated from contention. I'd say there's a pretty good chance they'll go W2W for at least the regular season.

Moses_Scurry
05-17-2010, 11:12 AM
With Cinci's victory over the Cards last night, the final team has been eliminated from wire to wire contention for 2010. No team will be able to duplicate the '05 Sox. Better luck to all next year!