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jabrch
04-05-2010, 07:55 PM
Anyone who thinks that doesn't matter just needed to see Thornton vs the Tribe's three LH batters.

Ranger
04-06-2010, 12:36 AM
Anyone who thinks that doesn't matter just needed to see Thornton vs the Tribe's three LH batters.

Great call.

guillensdisciple
04-06-2010, 12:38 AM
What???

jabrch
04-06-2010, 12:44 AM
What???

If the guys you count on the most (the top 5 in the lineup) are too RH or too LH, you are susceptible to turning a LOOGY into a LTOGY or a ROOGY into a RTOGY.

If you go R/L/R/L/R, you reduce the chances of someone who is strong against hitters from one side of the plate coming in and blowing you up.

Thornton would have gotten ANYONE out the way he was throwing today - but having Sizemore, Choo and Hafner all in a row made it easy for Thornton.

mcfish
04-06-2010, 12:44 AM
Anyone who thinks that doesn't matter just needed to see Thornton vs the Tribe's three LH batters.
I think it's less important than putting your best hitters out there in spots that fit their style. If you can get a good, balanced lineup, that's a definite positive, but if you've got some .250 hitter batting 2nd just because he's left handed that's not good.

Similar for bullpens in my opinion - I'd rather have the best pitchers whatever their throwing arm. I wouldn't keep a mediocre to crappy pitcher around just because he throws with his left hand if I had a better righty available.

Rohan
04-06-2010, 12:44 AM
This is EXACTLY what I was thinking during the game. Anyone mocking Ozzie for wanting to keep the lefties in the batting order separated should look at the Indians line up and how Thornton shut down the three straight lefties in a row.

soltrain21
04-06-2010, 12:46 AM
I think a big part of it has to do with the fact that Matt Thornton is a total bad ass, too.

jabrch
04-06-2010, 12:47 AM
I think it's less important than putting your best hitters out there in spots that fit their style. If you can get a good, balanced lineup, that's a definite positive, but if you've got some .250 hitter batting 2nd just because he's left handed that's not good.

Similar for bullpens in my opinion - I'd rather have the best pitchers whatever their throwing arm. I wouldn't keep a mediocre to crappy pitcher around just because he throws with his left hand if I had a better righty available.


Agreed - but the difference between having hitter X hitting 5 or 7 or 8 is nominal. And in the case of the Tribe, I don't know why they can't find a way to break those 3 up. Put Perralta before Hafner? Lead Sizemore off? The Indians suck - so maybe they have no choices. I agree - you don't wants a crappy hitter hitting at the top just for R/L/R/L, but moving player X up or down 2 or 3 slots (not 7 or 8) doesn't make a difference in productivity of a lineup and gives you that variable that makes it harder on the opposition.

guillensdisciple
04-06-2010, 12:48 AM
i think a big part of it has to do with the fact that matt thornton is a total bad ass, too.
+1

jabrch
04-06-2010, 12:52 AM
I think a big part of it has to do with the fact that Matt Thornton is a total bad ass, too.

Nobody was going to touch him today. That was as dominating as any inning I have seen thrown by a RP. (I've seen some that were equal, but I can't think of one better that I saw - with the possible exception of the 3 pitch inning Sirotka threw about 10 years ago.

It's Dankerific
04-06-2010, 02:59 AM
You do know that some LH hit LHP better and some RH hit RHP better, right?

:scratch:

LITTLE NELL
04-06-2010, 06:39 AM
Being a fan for close to 60 years my obsevation on the matter is left handed hitters have a much harder time against left handed pitchers than right handed hitters against right handed pitchers.
I also think that a fair number of right handed hitters would rather hit against a right handed pitcher because of the fact that they see in the course of a season more right handed pitchers and are more comfortable against them.

Ranger
04-06-2010, 04:09 PM
I think it's less important than putting your best hitters out there in spots that fit their style. If you can get a good, balanced lineup, that's a definite positive, but if you've got some .250 hitter batting 2nd just because he's left handed that's not good.

Similar for bullpens in my opinion - I'd rather have the best pitchers whatever their throwing arm. I wouldn't keep a mediocre to crappy pitcher around just because he throws with his left hand if I had a better righty available.

Like jabrch said, the difference between 5, 7, or 8 is nominal. You are pretty much guaranteed that, just about every game, the LRLR matchup is going to come into play in the late innings. That is, unless a guy pitches a complete game, which doesn't happen all that often these days.

You do know that some LH hit LHP better and some RH hit RHP better, right?

:scratch:

Not usually.

canOcorn
04-06-2010, 04:23 PM
You do know that some LH hit LHP better and some RH hit RHP better, right?

:scratch:

And add in the fact that some LHP pitch worse to LHH. Thornton has become dominate the last two years against LHH, but prior to that his career numbers were worse. And yet Ozzie still tried to use him as a LOOGY in 2007.

oeo
04-06-2010, 04:39 PM
You do know that some LH hit LHP better and some RH hit RHP better, right?

:scratch:

None of our lefthanders do, though, except for perhaps Teahen. Putting them back-to-back-to-back is asking for disaster late in games.

BadBobbyJenks
04-06-2010, 04:45 PM
Anyone who saw Kotsay up twice with the bases loaded knows thats a horrible idea.

Craig Grebeck
04-06-2010, 04:45 PM
None of our lefthanders do, though, except for perhaps Teahen. Putting them back-to-back-to-back is asking for disaster late in games.
Pierre has a higher career BA against left-handed pitchers.

thedudeabides
04-06-2010, 05:03 PM
And add in the fact that some LHP pitch worse to LHH. Thornton has become dominate the last two years against LHH, but prior to that his career numbers were worse. And yet Ozzie still tried to use him as a LOOGY in 2007.


:rolleyes:

Are you seriously complaining about Matt Thornton facing lefties? First off, he didn't have a career before he got to the White Sox. Second, his line against lefties in 2006 was .211/.253/.316.You might want to look up some numbers before you complain about things like this.

TDog
04-06-2010, 05:57 PM
You do know that some LH hit LHP better and some RH hit RHP better, right?

:scratch:

There are left-handed hitters who have better overall averages against southpaws, and there are more right-handed hitters who have a better batting average against right-handed pitchers. But those are just averages. A hitter's average against a right-handed pitcher doesn't tell you what he might hit against Roy Halladay or a healthy Joe Nathan. And, to follow Little Nell's point, if you were to ask Ken Harrelson about the toughest pitchers he had to face, the list would have plenty of southpaws on it.

To simplify (hopefully not oversimply) things, there are two general things to consider in a matchup -- how well the hitter picks up the ball and what kind of stuff he has. Not all southpaws can be picked up as easily, especially by left-handed hitters, and their movement and velocity differ widely.

For left-handed relief specialists, teams try to hire southpaws adept at getting left-handed hitters out. Facing the White Sox on most days, a left-handed hitter has a better chance of hitting John Danks early in the game than hitting Matt Thornton when he comes into the game late.

You wouldn't have any problem leaving Thornton in to face right-hand hitters, but hypothetically (indeed, some of the players mentioned here aren't teammates anymore), if you have Jimmy Gobble in your bullpen, you could bring him in to face Jim Thome in a game situation. Gobble has faced him eight times, walking him once, striking him out four times and allowing only one hit, a single, to him. If he gets Thome and Konerko follows in the order, you are probably going to take Gobble out. In the eight times he has faced Konerko, he has struck him out just once, walked him twice and allowed five hits, one of which stayed in the ballpark. You have no problem bringing in Robinson Tejada to face Konerko, who is 0-for-10 against him with three walks and four strikeouts. But you wouldn't want to leave Tejada in against A.J. Pierzynski, because Pierzynski has four hits, including a double and a homer, in seven appearances against Tejada. Even Kotsay is hitting .286 against Tejada and has an on-base percentage of .444.

The right-left-right order makes it more difficult for the opposing manager to manage his bullpen. It often limits that southpaw specialist to one hitter and can force the opposing team to burn more pitchers or face unfavorable matchups.

Ozzie Guillen has learned this through experience in managing his bullpens late in games and in watching other managers manager their bullpen against him late in games.

I will trust his judgment here.

Ranger
04-06-2010, 06:21 PM
Anyone who saw Kotsay up twice with the bases loaded knows thats a horrible idea.

Your logic, after game one of the season, would also suggest that Buehrle will throw 7 shutout innings every time he pitches.

And while it was certainly not ideal, Kotsay did bring home two runs yesterday. Let's not forget that this team used to just popup or strike out in those situations. If it had been runner on 3rd, runner on 2nd, or runner on 2nd and 3rd, you would've been applauding the result.


There are left-handed hitters who have better overall averages against southpaws, and there are more right-handed hitters who have a better batting average against right-handed pitchers. But those are just averages. A hitter's average against a right-handed pitcher doesn't tell you what he might hit against Roy Halladay or a healthy Joe Nathan. And, to follow Little Nell's point, if you were to ask Ken Harrelson about the toughest pitchers he had to face, the list would have plenty of southpaws on it.

To simplify (hopefully not oversimply) things, there are two general things to consider in a matchup -- how well the hitter picks up the ball and what kind of stuff he has. Not all southpaws can be picked up as easily, especially by left-handed hitters, and their movement and velocity differ widely.

For left-handed relief specialists, teams try to hire southpaws adept at getting left-handed hitters out. Facing the White Sox on most days, a left-handed hitter has a better chance of hitting John Danks early in the game than hitting Matt Thornton when he comes into the game late.

You wouldn't have any problem leaving Thornton in to face right-hand hitters, but hypothetically (indeed, some of the players mentioned here aren't teammates anymore), if you have Jimmy Gobble in your bullpen, you could bring him in to face Jim Thome in a game situation. Gobble has faced him eight times, walking him once, striking him out four times and allowing only one hit, a single, to him. If he gets Thome and Konerko follows in the order, you are probably going to take Gobble out. In the eight times he has faced Konerko, he has struck him out just once, walked him twice and allowed five hits, one of which stayed in the ballpark. You have no problem bringing in Robinson Tejada to face Konerko, who is 0-for-10 against him with three walks and four strikeouts. But you wouldn't want to leave Tejada in against A.J. Pierzynski, because Pierzynski has four hits, including a double and a homer, in seven appearances against Tejada. Even Kotsay is hitting .286 against Tejada and has an on-base percentage of .444.

The right-left-right order makes it more difficult for the opposing manager to manage his bullpen. It often limits that southpaw specialist to one hitter and can force the opposing team to burn more pitchers or face unfavorable matchups.

Ozzie Guillen has learned this through experience in managing his bullpens late in games and in watching other managers manager their bullpen against him late in games.

I will trust his judgment here.

Correct.

Let's just allow this Kotsay thing play out for a while before we start to determine it was the worst decision in baseball history. the division won't be lost by then.

oeo
04-06-2010, 06:29 PM
Your logic, after game one of the season, would also suggest that Buehrle will throw 7 shutout innings every time he pitches.

And while it was certainly not ideal, Kotsay did bring home two runs yesterday. Let's not forget that this team used to just popup or strike out in those situations. If it had been runner on 3rd, runner on 2nd, or runner on 2nd and 3rd, you would've been applauding the result.

Probably not considering Kotsay seems to be the new whipping boy around here, for whatever reason. A ground out RBI just won't be good enough for Kotsay. He's the new Wise, except Kotsay is 10 times the hitter Wise was. People will find whatever reasons they can to blast him.

Dibbs
04-06-2010, 06:32 PM
l-r-l-r is one of the most overrated philosophies in the game in my opinion. As mentioned, some hitters hit better against pitchers from their same side. Also, managers end up putting a better hitter lower in the lineup, which is a huge mistake. With that being said, I wouldn't want a lineup of 5 RH followed by 4 LH or vice versa.

Dibbs
04-06-2010, 06:36 PM
Let's not forget that this team used to just popup or strike out in those situations. If it had been runner on 3rd, runner on 2nd, or runner on 2nd and 3rd, you would've been applauding the result.

Is this really what we are going to go with? I have saw this ten or so times since yesterday. Yeah, future hall of famer Big Jim was a real dud at producing runs. Luckily we have a guy who can ground out in the 5th hole.

jabrch
04-06-2010, 06:43 PM
l-r-l-r is one of the most overrated philosophies in the game in my opinion. As mentioned, some hitters hit better against pitchers from their same side. Also, managers end up putting a better hitter lower in the lineup, which is a huge mistake. With that being said, I wouldn't want a lineup of 5 RH followed by 4 LH or vice versa.

Up or down one or two slots has almost no net impact on total runs scored.

jabrch
04-06-2010, 06:44 PM
Is this really what we are going to go with? I have saw this ten or so times since yesterday. Yeah, future hall of famer Big Jim was a real dud at producing runs. Luckily we have a guy who can ground out in the 5th hole.

Jim Thome was not an effective run producer last year against LH pitching. Right?

canOcorn
04-06-2010, 07:55 PM
:rolleyes:

Are you seriously complaining about Matt Thornton facing lefties? First off, he didn't have a career before he got to the White Sox. Second, his line against lefties in 2006 was .211/.253/.316.You might want to look up some numbers before you complain about things like this.

I don't see where I am complaining about Thornton facing lefties. I stated that prior to 2008 he was better against RHH than LHH. Maybe you were confusing my questioning of Ozzie using him as a LOOGY when there was no reason to pull him against most RHH.

Rohan
04-06-2010, 08:04 PM
Pierre has a higher career BA against left-handed pitchers.

So you want to move Juan Pierre? :scratch:

:rolleyes:

Are you seriously complaining about Matt Thornton facing lefties? First off, he didn't have a career before he got to the White Sox. Second, his line against lefties in 2006 was .211/.253/.316.You might want to look up some numbers before you complain about things like this.

No... That's not what the original poster said at all...

Tragg
04-06-2010, 08:24 PM
I think a big part of it has to do with the fact that Matt Thornton is a total bad ass, too.
Indeed.
He's one of the best relievers in baseball.

doublem23
04-06-2010, 08:37 PM
I think a big part of it has to do with the fact that Matt Thornton is a total bad ass, too.

Thank you.

L-R-L-R is fine when you have the bats to space it out, but you're overthinking things when you're specifically moving guys out of their best spots to force a R-L lineup.

Thornton's dominance of the Indians was more to do what happens when an awesome pitcher faces three **** batters in a row.

doublem23
04-06-2010, 08:39 PM
Your logic, after game one of the season, would also suggest that Buehrle will throw 7 shutout innings every time he pitches.

And your logic, Ranger, suggests next game we should have AJ pitch, Buehrle in CF, Carlos at 3B, and bring up CJ Retherford to lead-off. You know, we haven't seen it yet, so obviously there's a chance it might work, right?

Tragg
04-06-2010, 08:43 PM
Probably not considering Kotsay seems to be the new whipping boy around here, for whatever reason. A ground out RBI just won't be good enough for Kotsay. He's the new Wise, except Kotsay is 10 times the hitter Wise was. People will find whatever reasons they can to blast him.
He's also playing DH, a 100% offensive position.
If he was playing 4th outfielder, no one would say a thing. But Ozzie wants his DH to be able to play the field.

And yes, a double play with the bags loaded and no out isn't good enough for Kotsay or anyone.

doublem23
04-06-2010, 08:45 PM
Probably not considering Kotsay seems to be the new whipping boy around here, for whatever reason. A ground out RBI just won't be good enough for Kotsay. He's the new Wise, except Kotsay is 10 times the hitter Wise was. People will find whatever reasons they can to blast him.

It's really not Kotsay, the guy is a role player who is being thrust into a prominent role in the offense because stubborn Ozzie, trigger-shy KW, and cheap Uncle Jerry refuse to admit their No DH plan is ludicrous.

Kotsay as 4th OF/pinch hitter extraordinaire = :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Kotsay as DH batting 5th = Makes Baby Jesus cry :whiner::whiner::whiner:

Craig Grebeck
04-06-2010, 08:54 PM
So you want to move Juan Pierre?
I'm not sure where you got that. I meant exactly what I said -- he's got a higher career BA against lefties. If anything, I'd put Kotsay in the 9-hole and not worry about putting lefties back to back.

Also, Quentin mashes righties but not lefties. There's no reason we can't have four righties in the middle.

asindc
04-06-2010, 08:55 PM
Thank you.

L-R-L-R is fine when you have the bats to space it out, but you're overthinking things when you're specifically moving guys out of their best spots to force a R-L lineup.

Thornton's dominance of the Indians was more to do what happens when an awesome pitcher faces three **** batters in a row.

I generally agree with what you are posting here, except Thornton did not face three **** batters in a row. He faced two very good batters and a declining, broken-down batter.

BadBobbyJenks
04-06-2010, 09:04 PM
Your logic, after game one of the season, would also suggest that Buehrle will throw 7 shutout innings every time he pitches.

And while it was certainly not ideal, Kotsay did bring home two runs yesterday. Let's not forget that this team used to just popup or strike out in those situations. If it had been runner on 3rd, runner on 2nd, or runner on 2nd and 3rd, you would've been applauding the result.




This whole thread is based on ONE game from Matt Thornton. You guys cant have it both ways.

My logic is based on Kotsay's career he should not be near the 5 hole. I really dont care if he DH's in the 8 hole, but there is a big difference from hitting 5th and 8th. And Kotsay basically grounded into two double plays with the bases loaded.

Honestly just swap AJ and Kotsay and I am fine with it. It is not a good idea to put your worst hitter in the 5 hole, there is no way you can justify it to me.

HomeFish
04-06-2010, 09:04 PM
If I ever have a son, I hope he's left handed and can throw a 90 mph fastball and a 80 mph change. He'll make $1 million/yr until he's 40.

jabrch
04-06-2010, 09:41 PM
It's really not Kotsay, the guy is a role player who is being thrust into a prominent role in the offense because stubborn Ozzie, trigger-shy KW, and cheap Uncle Jerry refuse to admit their No DH plan is ludicrous.

Kotsay as 4th OF/pinch hitter extraordinaire = :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Kotsay as DH batting 5th = Makes Baby Jesus cry :whiner::whiner::whiner:

Definite schtick...no doubt Dubs. Good stuff here. You are the shtickmeister!

doublem23
04-06-2010, 09:44 PM
I generally agree with what you are posting here, except Thornton did not face three **** batters in a row. He faced two very good batters and a declining, broken-down batter.

I'll give you Choo, and I like me some Sizemore, but he's always been prone to K. Hafner BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-LOWS.

Dibbs
04-06-2010, 09:49 PM
He's also playing DH, a 100% offensive position.
If he was playing 4th outfielder, no one would say a thing. But Ozzie wants his DH to be able to play the field.

And yes, a double play with the bags loaded and no out isn't good enough for Kotsay or anyone.

Exactly. I actually love Kotsay on this team. If he is in the correct role of course.

TDog
04-06-2010, 11:06 PM
Of course, the debate is futile. Ozzie Guillen fills out the damn lineup. I don't always agree with Guillen, but I believe he knows what he's doing by splitting up left-handed hitters in the batting order. Doing so weakens the opposition, which generally has at least southpaw especially tough on left-handed hitters but aren't nearly as adept at pitching to right handers. At least not doing so gives the other manager an advantage. Even if the Sox lose such a lineup, there is no way to prove people proposing an alternative are right.

Ideally, I wouldn't have Kotsay batting fifth. I think he should be batting second when he starts because he handles the bat better than anyone else in the lineup (Vizquel, who unfortunately probably can't hit anymore, probably handles the bat better than anyone on the team). He tends to take a lot of pitches and go deep in counts, which will help Pierre if (that was a joke, really -- when) he ever gets on base. Ramirez would be a better No. 2 hitter as well, especially with Pierre on base, because he would see more fastballs.

Beckham (who never bunted in his life before he signed with the White Sox) really is more suited to be a 3, 4 or 5 hitter, as is Quentin. Konerko looks like a cleanup hitter.

But Guillen makes up the damn lineup, and Monday's lineup did its job. Really, I see his point. I won't scream because I would fill out the lineup card differently.

But I will scream the next time I see someone attempting to sacrifice a runner from second to third.

Ranger
04-06-2010, 11:12 PM
l-r-l-r is one of the most overrated philosophies in the game in my opinion. As mentioned, some hitters hit better against pitchers from their same side. Also, managers end up putting a better hitter lower in the lineup, which is a huge mistake. With that being said, I wouldn't want a lineup of 5 RH followed by 4 LH or vice versa.

What this guy said:

Up or down one or two slots has almost no net impact on total runs scored.

Is this really what we are going to go with? I have saw this ten or so times since yesterday. Yeah, future hall of famer Big Jim was a real dud at producing runs. Luckily we have a guy who can ground out in the 5th hole.

(Just a side note, it's "have seen" not "have saw." Don't mean to be the grammar police, but that one was particularly striking.)

Nobody said Thome was a dud, though just about everyone here was tired of his HR or nothing results last year.

All I said was that Kotsay wasn't a completel failure yesterday. He did get a couple of runs across the plate when last year the Sox were prone to getting none in those situations.

And your logic, Ranger, suggests next game we should have AJ pitch, Buehrle in CF, Carlos at 3B, and bring up CJ Retherford to lead-off. You know, we haven't seen it yet, so obviously there's a chance it might work, right?

This whole thread is based on ONE game from Matt Thornton. You guys cant have it both ways.

My logic is based on Kotsay's career he should not be near the 5 hole. I really dont care if he DH's in the 8 hole, but there is a big difference from hitting 5th and 8th. And Kotsay basically grounded into two double plays with the bases loaded.

Honestly just swap AJ and Kotsay and I am fine with it. It is not a good idea to put your worst hitter in the 5 hole, there is no way you can justify it to me.

Then you've already made up your mind and no evidence to suggest otherwise would change it, so there is no point in presenting any other evidence. AJ and Kotsay are really no different, by the way. Go check their career lines for yourself.

But to your first point, we aren't basing anything on one game. Jabrch was using yesterday as an example of what can happen (and, in fact, what will LIKELY happen) when there are 3-4 lefties in a row in the lineup. What happened to the Indians yesterday is what would happen to the Sox almost every night if they went L-L-L somewhere in the lineup.

If I ever have a son, I hope he's left handed and can throw a 90 mph fastball and a 80 mph change. He'll make $1 million/yr until he's 40.

Probably more.

oeo
04-06-2010, 11:31 PM
L-R-L-R is fine when you have the bats to space it out, but you're overthinking things when you're specifically moving guys out of their best spots to force a R-L lineup.

L-L-L-L is fine when you have the bats to hit LHP, but we don't.

jabrch
04-06-2010, 11:36 PM
L-L-L-L is fine when you have the bats to hit LHP, but we don't.

Even if you had, for arguements sake, Span, Mauer, Morneu and Kubel/Thome, you'd still want to split them up instead of having all four in a row. It just makes sense.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 12:08 AM
Again, I reiterate, Quentin hits righties better than lefties and hits right-handed.

Ranger
04-07-2010, 12:15 AM
Again, I reiterate, Quentin hits righties better than lefties and hits right-handed.

This is not the norm and this is not how opposing managers typically play the matchups. They usually go for the L vs L out of the pen and vice versa.

Furthermore, Quentin is a top of the order guy and is a good enough hitter overall that the matchup isn't nearly as important.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 12:22 AM
This is not the norm and this is not how opposing managers typically play the matchups. They usually go for the L vs L out of the pen and vice versa.

Furthermore, Quentin is a top of the order guy and is a good enough hitter overall that the matchup isn't nearly as important.
What I am saying is that it should not matter if there is a right-handed hitter in the five hole, say Rios, because Quentin's NOT the prototypical righty-on-righty matchup problem. Therefore, align as follows:

Pierre
Beckham
Quentin
Konerko
Rios
Pierzynski
Ramirez
Teahen
Konesay

Pierre is also very good against lefties. This isn't difficult.

cards press box
04-07-2010, 12:25 AM
What I am saying is that it should not matter if there is a right-handed hitter in the five hole, say Rios, because Quentin's NOT the prototypical righty-on-righty matchup problem. Therefore, align as follows:

Pierre
Beckham
Quentin
Konerko
Rios
Pierzynski
Ramirez
Teahen
Konesay

Pierre is also very good against lefties. This isn't difficult.

I think Rios does eventually hit 5th and this lineup is definitely a possibility. If, however, the Sox want a fast player to bat in front of Pierre, they might keep Ramirez hitting 9th.

DonnieDarko
04-07-2010, 12:31 AM
Yeah, I can't see anywhere to put Ramirez save for the 2nd and 9th holes. I can also see Rios batting 5th if he can perform to his career averages.

oeo
04-07-2010, 12:35 AM
And yes, a double play with the bags loaded and no out isn't good enough for Kotsay or anyone.

Not what I was responding to. Ranger specifically mentioned a circumstance where he would simply be grounding out for an RBI.

BadBobbyJenks
04-07-2010, 12:59 AM
By the way comparing what Thornton did yesterday is like saying Daniel Bard went through Beckham, Quentin and Konerko. See L,R,L,R is the only way to go!

asindc
04-07-2010, 06:55 AM
I'll give you Choo, and I like me some Sizemore, but he's always been prone to K. Hafner BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-LOWS.

So we apparently agree.

doublem23
04-07-2010, 07:05 AM
So we apparently agree.

Meh, they're just Indians so they suck. And Matt Thornton is awesome.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 07:42 AM
I don't see where I am complaining about Thornton facing lefties. I stated that prior to 2008 he was better against RHH than LHH. Maybe you were confusing my questioning of Ozzie using him as a LOOGY when there was no reason to pull him against most RHH.

No, I'm saying your assertions are wrong and you might want to look up some numbers. You are saying Ozzie used him as a LOOGY in 2007 and pulled him against RHH. Thornton threw 56.1 innings in 2007. 33.1 aganst RHH, and 23 against LHH. That's 60% of hitters faced were RHH, that is not being used as a LOOGY.

You also said he was better against RHH prior to 2008, so he was used incorrectly in 2007. His first year with the Sox was 2006 and he was outstanding against lefties, much better across the board than righties. LHH were .215, with a 1.02 WHIP, 10.2 k/9 and 2.2 BB/9. So, from what the Sox saw from him going into 2007 it would have been justified to use him as a LOOGY, even though they didn't.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 08:40 AM
This is not the norm and this is not how opposing managers typically play the matchups. They usually go for the L vs L out of the pen and vice versa.

Furthermore, Quentin is a top of the order guy and is a good enough hitter overall that the matchup isn't nearly as important.

I'm really surprised this is being so hotly debated. Formatting your lineup for best possible lefty right matchups is pretty standard practice. People are acting like Ozzie is the only one who does it. I'm just not sure if some people watch other teams than the Sox, but a lot of other managers use this philosophy. In fact, the two winningest managers in baseball right now in Tony Larussa and Bobby Cox adhere to the lefty righty matchup much more strictly than Ozzie does. Many of the fans in Atlanta say Bobby Cox is a slave to it, and in St. Louis they say Larussa is the master of it.

It's not like Ozzie is tinkering with the top of the lineup. He has Beckham, Quentin, and Konerko all in a row because they are the best hitters and are not going to get pinch hit for. Kotsay is far from the ideal 5th hitter, but the 5-9 hitters are all interchangeable, so they should be split up. If it's late in a game it forces the opposing manager to make more difficult decisions on his bullpen use. If they want to bring in a lefty to face Kotsay, you can now pinch hit Andruw Jones. This way the lefty has to face Jones and Rios. It works the same all the way down the line up until Beckham. It's just sound baseball practice.

Besides, if Rios keeps hitting or Jones steps up, I'm sure you won't be seeing this lineup every day. The hot hot will be moved up.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 08:45 AM
I don't believe 5-9 are at all interchangeable. The 5 hitter comes after the three best hitters on the team -- no reason to act like that guy is fungible.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 08:50 AM
I don't believe 5-9 are at all interchangeable. The 5 hitter comes after the three best hitters on the team -- no reason to act like that guy is fungible.

In this lineup they pretty much are. Until Rios and Jones prove they are back, they are all very similar hitters.

As I said, when someone steps up I'm sure they will be hitting there.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 08:52 AM
I think they're similar in that they can all be characterized as average to below average, but when the analysis narrows it's pretty clear that Kotsay is a hot pile of garbage at the plate.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 08:57 AM
I think they're similar in that they can all be characterized as average to below average, but when the analysis narrows it's pretty clear that Kotsay is a hot pile of garbage at the plate.


Than so are AJ and Teahen. As I said, Kotsay is not an ideal 5th hitter, but neither are our other lefties. If you want to make a case to bat AJ there, than fine but it's not much of a difference, nor is Teahen. And if they are all similar the best baseball strategy is to line them up with your best options available late in a game. Which is using the lefty righty rotation.

Dibbs
04-07-2010, 09:01 AM
All I said was that Kotsay wasn't a completel failure yesterday. He did get a couple of runs across the plate when last year the Sox were prone to getting none in those situations.

Kotsay wasn't a complete failure because of how well Buehrle pitched. If we were down by two or three runs, it would have been a disaster. Like I said, I am happy to have Kotsay on the team. However, he needs to be in the correct role.

Also, I strongly disagree with a lot of posters who say there is no difference between batting 5th or 8th. I have never heard that before, and I don't understand the logic behind that. I feel having your best hitters higher in the lineup is more important than going l-r-l-r. At some point in every game you are losing, you come down to your last out. I want the best hitter possible to have an additional chance before a Mark Kotsay type comes to the plate.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 09:04 AM
Than so are AJ and Teahen. As I said, Kotsay is not an ideal 5th hitter, but neither are our other lefties. If you want to make a case to bat AJ there, than fine but it's not much of a difference, nor is Teahen. And if they are all similar the best baseball strategy is to line them up with your best options available late in a game. Which is using the lefty righty rotation.
As I've said a hundred times, I don't care about lefty-righty-lefty. We have guys on the team who are not matchup robots. Quentin has splits like a lefty, for ****'s sake.

Dibbs
04-07-2010, 09:16 AM
What I am saying is that it should not matter if there is a right-handed hitter in the five hole, say Rios, because Quentin's NOT the prototypical righty-on-righty matchup problem. Therefore, align as follows:

Pierre
Beckham
Quentin
Konerko
Rios
Pierzynski
Ramirez
Teahen
Konesay

Pierre is also very good against lefties. This isn't difficult.

I agree with you Grebeck, except I would rarely put Kotsay at DH. If Jones fails, go find a DH elsewhere.

Pierre
Beckham
Quentin
Konerko
Rios or Jones
Pierzynski
Jones or Rios
Ramirez
Teahen

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 09:16 AM
As I've said a hundred times, I don't care about lefty-righty-lefty. We have guys on the team who are not matchup robots. Quentin has splits like a lefty, for ****'s sake.

And that's why he bats third every game and never comes out of the lineup, or gets pinch hit for regardless of the matchup. The same can't be said about the hitters that are batting 5-9.

This is a proven strategy that has been around quite some time, and is used all around the league by very succesfull teams. This isn't some crazy Ozzie mad scientist thing. This teams strength is in starting pitching and the back end of the bullpen, which will lead to a lot of close games. You need to configure a linueup for the end of a game, just as much as you do the first time through.

jabrch
04-07-2010, 09:19 AM
At some point in every game you are losing, you come down to your last out. I want the best hitter possible to have an additional chance before a Mark Kotsay type comes to the plate.

The math shows that to be virtually irrelevant. Find out the number of times it happens where #5 hits and #8 doesn't. Now multiply it by the differences in production of Kotsay vs whomever else. It's such a small amount on average that it is negligible. You are, of course, welcome to an opinion, but simple math shows something different. (that's not a bad thing) This is a virtually irrelevant discussion over a season.

jabrch
04-07-2010, 09:21 AM
And that's why he bats third every game and never comes out of the lineup, or gets pinch hit for regardless of the matchup. The same can't be said about the hitters that are batting 5-9.

This is a proven strategy that has been around quite some time, and is used all around the league by very succesfull teams. This isn't some crazy Ozzie mad scientist thing. This teams strength is in starting pitching and the back end of the bullpen, which will lead to a lot of close games. You need to configure a linueup for the end of a game, just as much as you do the first time through.


Spot on Dude. We aren't talking about hitting TCQ 9. We are talking about swapping the bottom 4-5 guys in our order. Until someone gets hot, those guys are interchangeable parts. That's a bad thing, if the alternative was having all-stars at every position. Since that's not an option, having a bunch of guys who can all generate similar production is a good thing.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 09:21 AM
And that's why he bats third every game and never comes out of the lineup, or gets pinch hit for regardless of the matchup. The same can't be said about the hitters that are batting 5-9.

This is a proven strategy that has been around quite some time, and is used all around the league by very succesfull teams. This isn't some crazy Ozzie mad scientist thing. This teams strength is in starting pitching and the back end of the bullpen, which will lead to a lot of close games. You need to configure a linueup for the end of a game, just as much as you do the first time through.
It is mad scientist when you put Mark ****ing Kotsay in the five-hole.

And no, it's far from proven.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 09:22 AM
Spot on Dude. We aren't talking about hitting TCQ 9. We are talking about swapping the bottom 4-5 guys in our order. Until someone gets hot, those guys are interchangeable parts. That's a bad thing, if the alternative was having all-stars at every position. Since that's not an option, having a bunch of guys who can all generate similar production is a good thing.
...except when said production isn't very good.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 09:22 AM
I agree with you Grebeck, except I would rarely put Kotsay at DH. If Jones fails, go find a DH elsewhere.

Pierre
Beckham
Quentin
Konerko
Rios or Jones
Pierzynski
Jones or Rios
Ramirez
Teahen

Ultimately, Jones hits and Kotsay returns to his rightful spot as the 4th outfielder/PH. If Rios hits like he has, I would also prefer to see him 5th or even 3rd.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 09:26 AM
It is mad scientist when you put Mark ****ing Kotsay in the five-hole.

And no, it's far from proven.

I get it, Kotsay sucks.

Tony Larussa, Bobby Cox, Jack McKeon, Charlie Manuel, and a whole bunch of other managers would disagree with you.

doublem23
04-07-2010, 09:26 AM
The math shows that to be virtually irrelevant. Find out the number of times it happens where #5 hits and #8 doesn't. Now multiply it by the differences in production of Kotsay vs whomever else. It's such a small amount on average that it is negligible. You are, of course, welcome to an opinion, but simple math shows something different. (that's not a bad thing) This is a virtually irrelevant discussion over a season.

At average, the #5 spot in the lineup would hit in 54 games where the #8 would not. That kind of seems relevant.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 09:27 AM
I get it, Kotsay sucks.

Tony Larussa, Bobby Cox, Jack McKeon, Charlie Manuel, and a whole bunch of other managers would disagree with you.
Good on them. r-l-r-l is meaningless when you have guys who can hit both righties and lefties.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 09:31 AM
Good on them. r-l-r-l is meaningless when you have guys who can hit both righties and lefties.

Then we just disagree. I'll stick with the baseball lifers on this one.

doublem23
04-07-2010, 09:36 AM
Then we just disagree. I'll stick with the baseball lifers on this one.

:rolleyes:

You're making it sound like he's arguing that players should wear blindfolds to the plate. There are plenty of respected baseball minds who agree with Grebeck's viewpoint and think forcing your lineup into L/R splits is overrated.

sox1970
04-07-2010, 09:36 AM
I get it, Kotsay sucks.

Tony Larussa, Bobby Cox, Jack McKeon, Charlie Manuel, and a whole bunch of other managers would disagree with you.

The Red Sox put Kotsay on waivers and he was ultimately traded for a guy who has finally seen the light that he can't hit at the major league level.

Kotsay is fine as a pinch hitter, and should start about 25 games at 1B, with Konerko sitting about 10 games and DHing 15 games. That's about it.

This is all going to work itself out. Jones will either play himself into regular play, or they'll go out and sign somebody or make a trade. I think Kotsay was in there because of the hot spring training. If he has a bad week, he'll be back at the bench where he belongs.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 09:43 AM
Then we just disagree. I'll stick with the baseball lifers on this one.
Ah, yes, baseball lifers. How indisputable their thoughts are -- unless they're named Jerry Manuel. That guy tinkered too much -- Oz just plays the matchups. Woo! And round and round we go.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 09:46 AM
:rolleyes:

You're making it sound like he's arguing that players should wear blindfolds to the plate. There are plenty of respected baseball minds who agree with Grebeck's viewpoint and think forcing your lineup into L/R splits is overrated.

No, you're making me sound like that. I just disagree that L-R matchups are meaningless, and we clearly disagreed on that point, I didn't see any reason to take the discussion any further. Call it a difference in baseball philosophy. I'm not shoving my opinion down anyone's throat. I'm expressing my point of view.

jabrch
04-07-2010, 09:57 AM
At average, the #5 spot in the lineup would hit in 54 games where the #8 would not. That kind of seems relevant.

Really?

multiple 54 * .03 (the difference between a guy with a .320 obp and a .350 obp, if you want to use OBP) and you now have a very irrelevant outcome.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 10:03 AM
No, you're making me sound like that. I just disagree that L-R matchups are meaningless, and we clearly disagreed on that point, I didn't see any reason to take the discussion any further. Call it a difference in baseball philosophy. I'm not shoving my opinion down anyone's throat. I'm expressing my point of view.
Well, it's clear you are misinterpreting my argument if you believe that's what I'm saying.

doublem23
04-07-2010, 10:08 AM
Really?

multiple 54 * .03 (the difference between a guy with a .320 obp and a .350 obp, if you want to use OBP) and you now have a very irrelevant outcome.

Well, I'm not even sure what that formula is measuring, let alone proving, so sure? I just think it's silly to willingly give a worse hitter an extra plate appearance over a better hitter in 1/3 of your games.

Dibbs
04-07-2010, 10:11 AM
Really?

multiple 54 * .03 (the difference between a guy with a .320 obp and a .350 obp, if you want to use OBP) and you now have a very irrelevant outcome.

54 at bats are far from meaningless. That is two full games worth of potential outs. I am actually surprised it is this big of difference, and this actually makes my point stronger. Kotsay has 18 HR in 1,297 AB over the last four years. OBP aside, he is not dangerous enough to hit in that spot in the order at this point in his career. Get him out of the fifth hole now Ozzie if you are reading this!

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 10:31 AM
Well, it's clear you are misinterpreting my argument if you believe that's what I'm saying.

I was just responding to Doubs over the top interpretation of my response to you. Other than that, my points have been made in this thread, as have yours. We just seem to disagree on the philosophy of a lineup construction. Although, I agree Kotsay is a ****ty 5th hitter, I don't particularly have a problem with the game 1 lineup. I really hope Rios, and possibly Teahen or Jones can do what the Sox brought them here to do, and this issue will quickly resolve itself.

Also, I would love to be able to keep batting Alexei 9th. I think he fits very well there.

jabrch
04-07-2010, 10:49 AM
54 at bats are far from meaningless. That is two full games worth of potential outs. I am actually surprised it is this big of difference, and this actually makes my point stronger. Kotsay has 18 HR in 1,297 AB over the last four years. OBP aside, he is not dangerous enough to hit in that spot in the order at this point in his career. Get him out of the fifth hole now Ozzie if you are reading this!

We had 6000 PAs last year. 54 is 0.9% of your total PAs. Now figure out the net production gap between whomever is hitting Kotsay and whomever he forces down to the 8 spot (Teahen?)

Dibbs...come on...really...over 6000 ABs, what's the net impact of having Kotsay get 54 extra trips (and again, that's assuming he is the one in the lineup every day - we know that's not the case, I'm assuming he gets about 250 PAs over the year, so we could cut that even further down to about 0.5%.

I get your point. Kotsay sucks as a DH, even if just once...I hear you. You are more than entitled to the opinion - and it may end up true. But the impact of it just is so infinitely small vs our options at this point. And if it ends up that someone (Jones?) proves to be worth hitting every day, and if it ends up that Kotsay can't, then let's see how OG adjusts.

I just don't see the catastrophe here...

TDog
04-07-2010, 11:17 AM
The Red Sox put Kotsay on waivers and he was ultimately traded for a guy who has finally seen the light that he can't hit at the major league level.
....

The Blue Jays put Rios on waivers, and for the Sox for the last six weeks of the season last year, Kotsay did more to help the Sox than Rios. For that matter Wise did. I'm confident Rios has his act together this year. How the Sox got Kotsay is irrelevant. He hasn't produced as much since he was injured in Oakland (which had the effect of showcasing Nick Swisher as a centerfielder, which led to the Sox picking him up to play center), but he is a much better ballplayer than people here are insisting.

How Kotsay came to the White Sox is irrelevant. Steve Stone signed with the White Sox instead of going into the restaurant business, resurrected his career and later won a Cy Young Award. The Cubs traded a young Lou Brock for a sore-armed pitcher at the end of his career. They don't call it Dick Allen surgery because he was traded for Tommy John. A ballplayer isn't who he was traded for.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 12:37 PM
Saying that Rios needs to prove himself before slotting into the five-hole while Kotsay is simply placed there -- as though he has nothing to prove -- is mind-boggling.

Ranger
04-07-2010, 01:07 PM
Again, I reiterate, Quentin hits righties better than lefties and hits right-handed.

And he's probably the best hitter in the lineup, so it doesn't really factor into the discussion. The discussion here pertains to the other less-productive hitters and how they need to be arranged for late game situations.

I'm really surprised this is being so hotly debated. Formatting your lineup for best possible lefty right matchups is pretty standard practice. People are acting like Ozzie is the only one who does it. I'm just not sure if some people watch other teams than the Sox, but a lot of other managers use this philosophy. In fact, the two winningest managers in baseball right now in Tony Larussa and Bobby Cox adhere to the lefty righty matchup much more strictly than Ozzie does. Many of the fans in Atlanta say Bobby Cox is a slave to it, and in St. Louis they say Larussa is the master of it.

It's not like Ozzie is tinkering with the top of the lineup. He has Beckham, Quentin, and Konerko all in a row because they are the best hitters and are not going to get pinch hit for. Kotsay is far from the ideal 5th hitter, but the 5-9 hitters are all interchangeable, so they should be split up. If it's late in a game it forces the opposing manager to make more difficult decisions on his bullpen use. If they want to bring in a lefty to face Kotsay, you can now pinch hit Andruw Jones. This way the lefty has to face Jones and Rios. It works the same all the way down the line up until Beckham. It's just sound baseball practice.

Besides, if Rios keeps hitting or Jones steps up, I'm sure you won't be seeing this lineup every day. The hot hot will be moved up.

And LaRussa sometimes bats his pitchers 8th. He clearly doesn't knwo what he's doing because how can you give the pitcher more at-bats than a position player????

Kotsay wasn't a complete failure because of how well Buehrle pitched. If we were down by two or three runs, it would have been a disaster. Like I said, I am happy to have Kotsay on the team. However, he needs to be in the correct role.

Also, I strongly disagree with a lot of posters who say there is no difference between batting 5th or 8th. I have never heard that before, and I don't understand the logic behind that. I feel having your best hitters higher in the lineup is more important than going l-r-l-r. At some point in every game you are losing, you come down to your last out. I want the best hitter possible to have an additional chance before a Mark Kotsay type comes to the plate.

Well he did bring home two runs in his ABs, so that may have tied the game. They obviously weren't great ABs, but they weren't total failures, either. By the way, IT WAS GAME ONE OF THE SEASON.

We had 6000 PAs last year. 54 is 0.9% of your total PAs. Now figure out the net production gap between whomever is hitting Kotsay and whomever he forces down to the 8 spot (Teahen?)

Dibbs...come on...really...over 6000 ABs, what's the net impact of having Kotsay get 54 extra trips (and again, that's assuming he is the one in the lineup every day - we know that's not the case, I'm assuming he gets about 250 PAs over the year, so we could cut that even further down to about 0.5%.

I get your point. Kotsay sucks as a DH, even if just once...I hear you. You are more than entitled to the opinion - and it may end up true. But the impact of it just is so infinitely small vs our options at this point. And if it ends up that someone (Jones?) proves to be worth hitting every day, and if it ends up that Kotsay can't, then let's see how OG adjusts.

I just don't see the catastrophe here...

That's because there isn't one.

jabrch
04-07-2010, 01:35 PM
That's because there isn't one.

You know that...and I know that...

Dibbs
04-07-2010, 01:36 PM
Now, if and when Ozzie puts Kotsay in the 8th one 9th spot, will all you guys then say Ozzie is correct for putting him there? Or will you guys make your argument to get him back in the 5th spot in the order?

jabrch
04-07-2010, 01:46 PM
Now, if and when Ozzie puts Kotsay in the 8th one 9th spot, will all you guys then say Ozzie is correct for putting him there? Or will you guys make your argument to get him back in the 5th spot in the order?


No - I'll say it doesn't matter more than a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction between hitting 5 and 8. I'm not clamouring for him to hit anywhere. I'm not clamouring for him to be in the lineup every day. I don't give a flying ****. If it's not him, and it's Jones, I'll cheer for that guy. Short of a couple of assbags that I haven't liked, I'll cheer for whomever is wearing the uniform and hope for the best and not piss and ****ing moan about every little god damned nuance in a 162 game season.

Everyone is entitled to their own way to enjoy the game. If this is yours - then so be it. But the **** if I care enough to sound so damn whiney over if a guy hits 5 or 8, and how that impacts the few guys in between over what will likely only be 250ish PAs - and only result in about 1 or 2 runs more or less over the course of an 750-800 run season.

I didn't say Ozzie is correct hitting him 5 (and I don't see anyone who did). I am not going to say he is correct hitting him 8 (and I don't imagine anyone will). I'm saying it doesn't matter more than one tiny damned bit over the course of a season. There is no right and wrong. I'm glad he isn't stacking Kotsay, AJ, Teahen and Pierre back to back to back to back. I don't like lineups that way. But if he did - if OG decided that was the right way to go, I wouldn't cry a ****ing river over it. I wouldnt' start preaching about knowing more than him. I'd say, "lineup construction doesn't mean a ton over the course of the year - so whatever" and I'd hope we don't face too many strong LOOGYs who cut through the weakest part of our lineup like a hot knife through butter.

I still don't get this whole right and wrong thing. It's not black and white. There is no right and wrong here. There are lots of shades of gray.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 01:49 PM
No - I'll say it doesn't matter more than a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction between hitting 5 and 8. I'm not clamouring for him to hit anywhere. I'm not clamouring for him to be in the lineup every day. I don't give a flying ****. If it's not him, and it's Jones, I'll cheer for that guy. Short of a couple of assbags that I haven't liked, I'll cheer for whomever is wearing the uniform and hope for the best and not piss and ****ing moan about every little god damned nuance in a 162 game season.

Everyone is entitled to their own way to enjoy the game. If this is yours - then so be it. But the **** if I care enough to sound so damn whiney over if a guy hits 5 or 8, and how that impacts the few guys in between over what will likely only be 250ish PAs - and only result in about 1 or 2 runs more or less over the course of an 750-800 run season.

I didn't say Ozzie is correct hitting him 5 (and I don't see anyone who did). I am not going to say he is correct hitting him 8 (and I don't imagine anyone will). I'm saying it doesn't matter more than one tiny damned bit over the course of a season. There is no right and wrong. I'm glad he isn't stacking Kotsay, AJ, Teahen and Pierre back to back to back to back. I don't like lineups that way. But if he did - if OG decided that was the right way to go, I wouldn't cry a ****ing river over it. I wouldnt' start preaching about knowing more than him. I'd say, "lineup construction doesn't mean a ton over the course of the year - so whatever" and I'd hope we don't face too many strong LOOGYs who cut through the weakest part of our lineup like a hot knife through butter.

I still don't get this whole right and wrong thing. It's not black and white. There is no right and wrong here. There are lots of shades of gray.
...except when it comes to questioning management.

doublem23
04-07-2010, 02:06 PM
...except when it comes to questioning management.

Well we all know Ozzie is never wrong.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 02:13 PM
Well we all know Ozzie is never wrong.

Honestly, that's garbage and you know it. People trash management up and down pretty much every thread in the clubhouse. Nobody tells them to stop, but plenty of people disagree. Just because some of us think Ozzie is a good manager and trust his baseball knowledge, doesn't mean we think he's never wrong. Same goes for Kenny.

Not everyone has a suddenly jaded view on this team, and wants to go thread to thread repeating the same things over and over, turning every thread in to the same discussion.

jabrch
04-07-2010, 02:15 PM
Well we all know Ozzie is never wrong.


Only you (and the very small very vocal minority) keep saying that Dubs - so it must be true...or be schtick...Most people know the truth at this point.

Craig Grebeck
04-07-2010, 02:16 PM
Why don't we wait and see before we make any judgments here, folks? Just because there's overwhelming evidence of something doesn't mean we can make any inference or assumption.

[/endthread]

doublem23
04-07-2010, 02:19 PM
Honestly, that's garbage and you know it. People trash management up and down pretty much every thread in the clubhouse. Nobody tells them to stop, but plenty of people disagree. Just because some of us think Ozzie is a good manager and trust his baseball knowledge, doesn't mean we think he's never wrong. Same goes for Kenny.

Not everyone has a suddenly jaded view on this team, and wants to go thread to thread repeating the same things over and over, turning every thread in to the same discussion.

I actually still am on board with Ozzie and KW, and I really don't mind if people back up their decisions, but there is a certain segment of our posting population that can't take any criticism of management ever for any reason. Dewayne Wise leading off? Brilliant! Rob Mackowiak in CF everyday? Genius!! Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay as your everyday DH? Unbelievable!!!

If you think Ozzie is a great manager and KW is a great GM, that's fine, but if the best you can do when people criticize them is just repeat, "Well Ozzie and KW obviously know more than we do," and that's that, yeah, you're going to get in arguments for that.

jabrch
04-07-2010, 02:21 PM
I actually still am on board with Ozzie and KW, and I really don't mind if people back up their decisions, but there is a certain segment of our posting population that can't take any criticism of management ever for any reason. Dewayne Wise leading off? Brilliant! Rob Mackowiak in CF everyday? Genius!! Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay as your everyday DH? Unbelievable!!!

If you think Ozzie is a great manager and KW is a great GM, that's fine, but if the best you can do when people criticize them is just repeat, "Well Ozzie and KW obviously know more than we do," and that's that, yeah, you're going to get in arguments for that.


I'd like to see who described any of those situations using those words. To the best of my recollections, you are the first I have ever seen do that.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 02:25 PM
I actually still am on board with Ozzie and KW, and I really don't mind if people back up their decisions, but there is a certain segment of our posting population that can't take any criticism of management ever for any reason. Dewayne Wise leading off? Brilliant! Rob Mackowiak in CF everyday? Genius!! Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay as your everyday DH? Unbelievable!!!

If you think Ozzie is a great manager and KW is a great GM, that's fine, but if the best you can do when people criticize them is just repeat, "Well Ozzie and KW obviously know more than we do," and that's that, yeah, you're going to get in arguments for that.

Show me one time I have ever said such a thing? Or any of these things you are saying. You're just going around making **** up, so you can be the loudest person here.

I'm tired of you spinning these debates and putting me in these groups. I have defended Kenny and Ozzie, at times. There are times I have completely disagreed with them. And there are thousands of posts blasting them I have said nothing about. Unlike some, I do not go into every thread endlessly repeating the same ****. So, give it a rest.

canOcorn
04-07-2010, 02:26 PM
No, I'm saying your assertions are wrong and you might want to look up some numbers. You are saying Ozzie used him as a LOOGY in 2007 and pulled him against RHH. Thornton threw 56.1 innings in 2007. 33.1 aganst RHH, and 23 against LHH. That's 60% of hitters faced were RHH, that is not being used as a LOOGY. Maybe you need to remember the season better or look deeper into your stat book. He used him as a LOOGY in games we were up or tied and let him face multiple batter in games were were losing. Assuming you don't remember the season well, Baseball Reference would be a good starting point.

You also said he was better against RHH prior to 2008, so he was used incorrectly in 2007. His first year with the Sox was 2006 and he was outstanding against lefties, much better across the board than righties. LHH were .215, with a 1.02 WHIP, 10.2 k/9 and 2.2 BB/9. So, from what the Sox saw from him going into 2007 it would have been justified to use him as a LOOGY, even though they didn't. :rolleyes: And I was correct. You might want to say his career started in 2006, but any rational person isn't going to base his career on 83 PA against LHH in '06 and dismiss the previous season and a half.

canOcorn
04-07-2010, 02:36 PM
The Indians brought in Aaron ****ing Laffey to make Kotsay look silly, promptly gave Rios the 4 pitch "unintentional" walk and then got to face another lefty. Good thing we split those guys up and went l-r-l. :rolleyes:

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 02:39 PM
Maybe you need to remember the season better or look deeper into your stat book. He used him as a LOOGY in games we were up or tied and let him face multiple batter in games were were losing. Assuming you don't remember the season well, Baseball Reference would be a good starting point.

:rolleyes: And I was correct. You might want to say his career started in 2006, but any rational person isn't going to base his career on 83 PA against LHH in '06 and dismiss the previous season and a half.

Can you give examples of those games? He wasn't even used the majority of the time against lefties, so it's hard to call him a LOOGY.

And yes I am basing Thornton's career on when he came over to the Sox. He was a much different pitcher after Cooper made some adjustments. I guess I'm just irrational.

doublem23
04-07-2010, 04:15 PM
Show me one time I have ever said such a thing? Or any of these things you are saying. You're just going around making **** up, so you can be the loudest person here.

No, the point is that even though the Sox and Ozzie have made some obviously boneheaded moves there are still some folks round these parts that absolutely cannot take even the slightest criticism of anything they ever do.

I am not accusing you personally of this, but it is possible to actually have mixed feelings about the guy. I think he's generally all right, but I really am skeptical of the way he's built this offense. I like KW as GM, but I don't like the way he's ignored the DH problem this off-season. You don't have to be a robot and react to every single thing the same way, it is possible to be optimistic sometimes and pessimistic others.

TheVulture
04-07-2010, 04:20 PM
None of our lefthanders do, though, except for perhaps Teahen. Putting them back-to-back-to-back is asking for disaster late in games.

Pierre does. Last year he put up something like .321/.414 vs. lefties. Career .304 vs. lefties, .299 vs. righties. I think Ichiro is another example. Those slappy hacker types are the ones that seem to have success.

beasly213
04-07-2010, 04:21 PM
No, the point is that even though the Sox and Ozzie have made some obviously boneheaded moves there are still some folks round these parts that absolutely cannot take even the slightest criticism of anything they ever do.

I am not accusing you personally of this, but it is possible to actually have mixed feelings about the guy. I think he's generally all right, but I really am skeptical of the way he's built this offense. I like KW as GM, but I don't like the way he's ignored the DH problem this off-season. You don't have to be a robot and react to every single thing the same way, it is possible to be optimistic sometimes and pessimistic others.


And THAT is the understatement of the year.

doublem23
04-07-2010, 04:26 PM
And THAT is the understatement of the year.

Nah, I've mentioned several times that if every single guy stays healthy and they all play as well as could be expected, we'll be OK (especially because our pitching is so strong), but if one guy goes down, like Quentin, or plays poorly, like Rios, things go south real fast.

thedudeabides
04-07-2010, 04:26 PM
No, the point is that even though the Sox and Ozzie have made some obviously boneheaded moves there are still some folks round these parts that absolutely cannot take even the slightest criticism of anything they ever do.

I am not accusing you personally of this, but it is possible to actually have mixed feelings about the guy. I think he's generally all right, but I really am skeptical of the way he's built this offense. I like KW as GM, but I don't like the way he's ignored the DH problem this off-season. You don't have to be a robot and react to every single thing the same way, it is possible to be optimistic sometimes and pessimistic others.

You can react anyway you want, and I'd say you have. But, you have been anything but balanced, and have been flooding threads, along with a few others, non-stop about how bad certain players and management sucks, going on four months now. I don't ever tell you to stop, even though I know a bunch of posters here who are so tired of it they barely post in the Clubhouse anymore. Yet, you've called me out about three times for defending everything management, which isn't true. Whenever, I ask for examples you don't have any.

I have stuck up for them at times, because I'm sick of the non-stop bashing in every thread. It never ends and bleeds into everything around here.

I guess maybe it's just time for me to step away from the clubhouse.

Enjoy the season.

russ99
04-08-2010, 08:58 AM
Sheesh. If you guys can't stand Ozzie's managing, I can't imagine some of these posts during the Manuel or (shudder) Bevington eras.

Ozzie's not infallible, but his instincts are usually right and he's better than all but a handful of current MLB managers. Maybe people have a grudge against him because of how certain players have been handled, but no one can deny that he's a good manager.

I also figured out why all the Kotsay hate. He's the whipping boy for some people since he's taking the spot of a slow plodding slugger. It doesn't matter that he's a good player and had produced at the plate his whole career, it that he's not a 40/100 guy. Put anyone other than Paul or Quentin at the 5 spot and some people in love with sluggers are gonna bitch no matter who it is.

Face it guys, the "16 inch softball team" concept didn't work. Let's see how this works out over the course of 100 games :wink: before deeming it a failure.

Dibbs
04-08-2010, 09:35 AM
I also figured out why all the Kotsay hate. He's the whipping boy for some people since he's taking the spot of a slow plodding slugger. It doesn't matter that he's a good player and had produced at the plate his whole career, it that he's not a 40/100 guy. Put anyone other than Paul or Quentin at the 5 spot and some people in love with sluggers are gonna bitch no matter who it is.


You figured out nothing. I don't think anyone hates Kotsay. He could be a very valuable player on the team if he is used properly. He should start 20-30 games max on the year, and bat 8th or 9th in those games.

The frustration is with Ozzie. He insists on having the best defensive DHs of all-time. Unfortunately there is no such thing. It's not Kotsay's fault he is not good enough to succeed in the 5th spot, and Ozzie should know that.

Craig Grebeck
04-08-2010, 10:36 AM
Yeah, Kotsay hasn't been a good player in a long time. He also never really was a very good hitter.

Swing and a miss, Russ.

He sucks.