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Brian26
04-05-2010, 05:28 PM
Kotsay came up today twice with the bases loaded. Both times he hit the same doubleplay groundball to the second baseman.

First time, the play developed slowly and the throw from SS was a little off, but not enough to be an error. Should have been a DP, but Kotsay gets an RBI with the runner scoring from third.

Second time, the second baseman flipped to SS quicker, and the doubleplay was turned. No RBI.

Is the RBI on the first play up to the discretion of the official scorekeeper?

ba3426
04-05-2010, 05:32 PM
No, it's not up to the scorekeeper. There are no RBIs on double play balls. On the first ground ball, no double play occured and no error occured. So, Kotsay was awarded the RBI. They cannot assume the double play would have occured. It would have to be a clear error (bobble, drop, very wild throw). Hope that answers it.

Scottiehaswheels
04-05-2010, 05:33 PM
Might have something to do with the timing of the runner crossing the plate... Having not seen either play I can't say for sure though?

soltrain21
04-05-2010, 05:33 PM
The first one would just be marked as a fielder's choice in the playbook, since that is what it essentially is.

oeo
04-05-2010, 05:34 PM
No, it's not up to the scorekeeper. There are no RBIs on double play balls. On the first ground ball, no double play occured and no error occured. So, Kotsay was awarded the RBI. They cannot assume the double play would have occured. Hope that answers it.

What he said. He got the RBI the first time because it was just a fielder's choice.

TDog
04-05-2010, 05:49 PM
...

Is the RBI on the first play up to the discretion of the official scorekeeper?

The official scorer has no discretion in the matter. You cannot get an RBI on a force-out doubleplay. The theory is that the opposing team chose to get two outs instead of getting the runner out on the plate, although that is not always directly true. It is usually true, at least, that the defense was positioned to concede the run in the event of a ball that could be turned as a doubleplay.

If there is a doubleplay that involves a weird baserunning mistake, i.e., if you hit a ball to the wall with the bases loaded and two runners are thrown out at the plate resulting in a doubleplay, you still get the RBI.

In the case of a fielder's choice, there is no question that the player earned an RBI, just as he would have earned an RBI had he grounded out or hit a sacrifice fly, for which, really, he should be charged with a time at bat (as Ted Williams was for his run-scoring fly balls the year he hit .406).

The only time a scorer has discretion over whether a player gets an RBI is in the case of a charged error in a case where there is a question of whether the run would score had the error not been committed. Of course, on a doubleplay that isn't turned, there is no question of an error being committed.

RBIs might not be a way to judge a player's ability, but they often are an indication of a player's value to the team after the fact.

Patrick134
04-05-2010, 06:31 PM
When scoring, they never assume that a a double play would have been turned, regardless of how the play looked.

whitem0nkey
04-05-2010, 06:39 PM
I did not want to make a new thread for such a simple question, but about pitch counts. when a pitcher intentionally walks a guy do those count against the pitch count?

comiskey2000
04-05-2010, 06:55 PM
Yes, all pitches go towards a pitch count.

Boondock Saint
04-05-2010, 06:56 PM
I did not want to make a new thread for such a simple question, but about pitch counts. when a pitcher intentionally walks a guy do those count against the pitch count?

I'm just guessing, but I would assume they do. If they count as balls, wouldn't they have to count as pitches?

Brian26
04-05-2010, 07:02 PM
When scoring, they never assume that a a double play would have been turned, regardless of how the play looked.

Just saw the replay on CSN, and I actually have to give credit to Kotsay for busting down the line to beat it out. That wasn't as apparent at the game. He earned that RBI.

TDog
04-05-2010, 07:04 PM
I did not want to make a new thread for such a simple question, but about pitch counts. when a pitcher intentionally walks a guy do those count against the pitch count?

The answer is yes and no.

Generally, if you go to a ballpark where there is a scoreboard tracking pitch counts, the intentional walk pitches count toward the pitch count. In the dugout where a starter not in the game is charting pitches under direction of a pitching coach, intentional-walk pitches aren't counted by teams whose procedures I have been familiar with. I don't know what the current practice on the White Sox is, but when I was, they weren't counting intentional walks in the pitch counts.

Brian26
04-05-2010, 07:08 PM
The official scorer has no discretion in the matter. You cannot get an RBI on a force-out doubleplay. The theory is that the opposing team chose to get two outs instead of getting the runner out on the plate, although that is not always directly true. It is usually true, at least, that the defense was positioned to concede the run in the event of a ball that could be turned as a doubleplay.

If there is a doubleplay that involves a weird baserunning mistake, i.e., if you hit a ball to the wall with the bases loaded and two runners are thrown out at the plate resulting in a doubleplay, you still get the RBI.

In the case of a fielder's choice, there is no question that the player earned an RBI, just as he would have earned an RBI had he grounded out or hit a sacrifice fly, for which, really, he should be charged with a time at bat (as Ted Williams was for his run-scoring fly balls the year he hit .406).

The only time a scorer has discretion over whether a player gets an RBI is in the case of a charged error in a case where there is a question of whether the run would score had the error not been committed. Of course, on a doubleplay that isn't turned, there is no question of an error being committed.

RBIs might not be a way to judge a player's ability, but they often are an indication of a player's value to the team after the fact.

This is a great explanation. I knew a doubleplay couldn't earn the batter an RBI, but you answered my question about discretion regarding the fielder's choice play. It is peculiar though that essentially the same batted ball could earn the batter an RBI in the first case and no RBI in the second case without an error being charged (assuming Kotsay hadn't beat it out so much with his speed, but rather a slow-developing play or off-the-mark throw occurred). Good stuff.

jabrch
04-05-2010, 07:09 PM
I did not want to make a new thread for such a simple question, but about pitch counts. when a pitcher intentionally walks a guy do those count against the pitch count?

Yes - a pitch is a pitch...that's why just using pitch counts is not sufficient to measure a pitcher's fatigue.

TDog
04-05-2010, 07:30 PM
Yes - a pitch is a pitch...that's why just using pitch counts is not sufficient to measure a pitcher's fatigue.

Pitching coaches who don't count the intentional walks don't consider an intentional walk pitch to be a pitch. They don't count warmup tosses between inning (which often involve more exertion), either.

It makes little difference because pitch counts aren't nearly as important as many fans believe.

jabrch
04-05-2010, 07:34 PM
Pitching coaches who don't count the intentional walks don't consider an intentional walk pitch to be a pitch. They don't count warmup tosses between inning (which often involve more exertion), either.

It makes little difference because pitch counts aren't nearly as important as many fans believe.

I totally agree!

whitem0nkey
04-05-2010, 08:20 PM
Yes - a pitch is a pitch...that's why just using pitch counts is not sufficient to measure a pitcher's fatigue.

what about a pick off throw to first for example? does that count towards the pitch count?

SephClone89
04-05-2010, 08:20 PM
what about a pick off throw to first for example? does that count towards the pitch count?

No.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
04-05-2010, 09:04 PM
what about a pick off throw to first for example? does that count towards the pitch count?

It has to be a clear delivery towards the plate/batter for it to count as a pitch.

How about this...if there's someone on third and he breaks for home just when the pitcher cocks his leg. He stops his delivery, stabilizes himself, and throws it from the mound to the plate in an attempt to get the runner out, that's not a pitch....but is that considered a balk?

TDog
04-05-2010, 11:33 PM
It has to be a clear delivery towards the plate/batter for it to count as a pitch.

How about this...if there's someone on third and he breaks for home just when the pitcher cocks his leg. He stops his delivery, stabilizes himself, and throws it from the mound to the plate in an attempt to get the runner out, that's not a pitch....but is that considered a balk?

See the accounts of the 1954 All-Star Game. (I wasn't born, but a business teacher at Munster (Indiana) High School in the 1960s and '70s Mr. Stone, was related to the pitcher in question and related the story to me).

Dean Stone, who would later pitch for the White Sox, came into the game in relief with two outs in the 8th, with the AL trailing 9-8. He came in to face Duke Snider, but as he was setting up to throw his first pitch, Red Schoendienst broke for home. Stone threw him out at the plate, ending the inning. The NL argued that Stone had balked, but umpires ruled he did not. (You have to see the how the ball was thrown, how the pitcher broke contract with the rubber etc. to determine if it was a balk.)

The AL, with big hits by Nellie Fox and Minnie Minoso, took the lead in the top of the ninth. Stone didn't retire a batter -- officially he didn't even throw a pitch -- but because he ended the inning, he did not have to continue to pitch the ninth. As it turned out, Stone was credited with winning the game without throwing a pitch.

On the other hand, Todd Fischer's career ended in 1986 with a relief appearance that sent his team to defeat without throwing a pitch. He came into a tie game in Fenway with the bases loaded in the ninth (maybe it was in extras). After warming up, he balked in the winning run. But in that case, he didn't throw the ball to the plate. His pitch count wasn't the only zero he registered that night.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
04-05-2010, 11:49 PM
See the accounts of the 1954 All-Star Game. (I wasn't born, but a business teacher at Munster (Indiana) High School in the 1960s and '70s Mr. Stone, was related to the pitcher in question and related the story to me).

Dean Stone, who would later pitch for the White Sox, came into the game in relief with two outs in the 8th, with the AL trailing 9-8. He came in to face Duke Snider, but as he was setting up to throw his first pitch, Red Schoendienst broke for home. Stone threw him out at the plate, ending the inning. The NL argued that Stone had balked, but umpires ruled he did not. (You have to see the how the ball was thrown, how the pitcher broke contract with the rubber etc. to determine if it was a balk.)

The AL, with big hits by Nellie Fox and Minnie Minoso, took the lead in the top of the ninth. Stone didn't retire a batter -- officially he didn't even throw a pitch -- but because he ended the inning, he did not have to continue to pitch the ninth. As it turned out, Stone was credited with winning the game without throwing a pitch.

On the other hand, Todd Fischer's career ended in 1986 with a relief appearance that sent his team to defeat without throwing a pitch. He came into a tie game in Fenway with the bases loaded in the ninth (maybe it was in extras). After warming up, he balked in the winning run. But in that case, he didn't throw the ball to the plate. His pitch count wasn't the only zero he registered that night.

Interesting stories both, TDog. :smile:

I ask because I want to get a better understanding of the balk rule...I want to attend the Jim Evans Academy of Professional Umpiring, and graduate with honors in the hopes of one day making it to the major leagues.

That's very interesting...baseball's a funny game where anything can happen, and often does.

TDog
04-06-2010, 12:11 AM
Interesting stories both, TDog. :smile:

I ask because I want to get a better understanding of the balk rule...I want to attend the Jim Evans Academy of Professional Umpiring, and graduate with honors in the hopes of one day making it to the major leagues.

That's very interesting...baseball's a funny game where anything can happen, and often does.

The balk rule is covered in rule 8.05 (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/pitcher_8.jsp). However, you really have to see a lot of baseball to recognize a balk. Usually when people scream balk from the stands, they don't know what they are talking about, and when the umpires call a balk, the fans have no idea what just happened.

lpneck
04-06-2010, 10:18 AM
In the case of a fielder's choice, there is no question that the player earned an RBI, just as he would have earned an RBI had he grounded out or hit a sacrifice fly, for which, really, he should be charged with a time at bat (as Ted Williams was for his run-scoring fly balls the year he hit .406).


Thanks for this. I have to admit that I did not believe you until I googled it. There is an interesting history of rule changes regarding sacrifice flies:

http://research.sabr.org/journals/sacrifice-fly

UofCSoxFan
04-06-2010, 01:56 PM
I did not want to make a new thread for such a simple question, but about pitch counts. when a pitcher intentionally walks a guy do those count against the pitch count?

They do...but that is just another part of a reason why pitch counts are an overrated stat. The magic number that many coaches use of "100" is arbitrary. Each pitcher is different and each game is different. Thowing 100 pitches over 8 mostly from the stretch with no one on and a big lead is typically a lot less arduous than throwing 100 pitches over 5 innings out of the stretch and having to come up with a bit K time and time again.

bigdommer
04-06-2010, 02:26 PM
I did not want to make a new thread for such a simple question, but about pitch counts. when a pitcher intentionally walks a guy do those count against the pitch count?

In college, our pitching coach separated the pitches according to wind up and stretch, and tracked them each by pitches per inning. Not sure if he had a magic number for the categories, but he could track it against a pitcher's history to see if he was wearing down. His thought was that pitching with runners on base is more stressful than without, and longer innings can also add fatigue. For example, 100 pitches in 5 innings constantly working out of jams could be more taxing than 120 pitches over 9 innings with limited baserunners.