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baggio202
06-16-2002, 12:32 AM
you couldnt leave well enough alone could you???..no ,you had to come in here and be mr.wheeler dealer and put your mark on the team...you couldnt share the glory with schueler... you had to make sure you proved GM's win championships and you were DA MAN!!!...you inherited the best farm system in all of baseball (one which you "supposedly" built but i find that very hard to believe since you seem to have no no clue who in it is a major league ballplayer) and a 95 win team with a 30 million dollar payroll and that wasnt good enough for you was it jag bag???...you couldnt just keep the core together and add a few key free agents to put us over the top...no 14 trades later we are a sub .500 team and our minor league system is average at best now...great job you poor excuse for a feminine hygiene product....great job mr wheeler dealer....i hear you are being voted the team mvp and GM of the year...in pittsburgh...you stink :angry:

Daver
06-16-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by baggio202
you couldnt leave well enough alone could you???..no ,you had to come in here and be mr.wheeler dealer and put your mark on the team...you couldnt share the glory with schueler... you had to make sure you proved GM's win championships and you were DA MAN!!!...you inherited the best farm system in all of baseball (one which you "supposedly" built but i find that very hard to believe since you seem to have no no clue who in it is a major league ballplayer) and a 95 win team with a 30 million dollar payroll and that wasnt good enough for you was it jag bag???...you couldnt just keep the core together and add a few key free agents to put us over the top...no 14 trades later we are a sub .500 team and our minor league system is average at best now...great job you poor excuse for a feminine hygiene product....great job mr wheeler dealer....i hear you are being voted the team mvp and GM of the year...in pittsburgh...you stink :angry:

Nice rant,but Schueler is one of Kenny's advisors,as is Roland Helms,who deserves all the credit Schueler got.
The farm system dropped in it's ranking because they promoted all their top talent to the MLB level,and for no other reason.
You need to find a new target,the one you are using now is being overused by many,for the same wrong reasons.

baggio202
06-16-2002, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by daver


Nice rant,but Schueler is one of Kenny's advisors,as is Roland Helms,who deserves all the credit Schueler got.
The farm system dropped in it's ranking because they promoted all their top talent to the MLB level,and for no other reason.
You need to find a new target,the one you are using now is being overused by many,for the same wrong reasons.

2 things...first off.,.any GM that has to have TWO advisors obviously was not prepared to be a major league GM...and 2nd..even if he has these two as advisors doesnt mean he is listening to them...as far as schueler goes..its obvious to anyone he wanted danny evans as his replacement...since he "advised" evans to resign...

youre in some serious denial daver if you cant see this that this teams failures start at the top...

neal
06-16-2002, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by baggio202


2 things...first off.,.any GM that has to have TWO advisors obviously was not prepared to be a major league GM...and 2nd..even if he has these two as advisors doesnt mean he is listening to them...as far as schueler goes..its obvious to anyone he wanted danny evans as his replacement...since he "advised" evans to resign...

youre in some serious denial daver if you cant see this that this teams failures start at the top...

*** are you smoking? Every GM has AT LEAST 2 people to advise him, that's just smart business. If they didn't, I'd be worried. And 2, how do you know he isn't listening to them? I guarentee you haven't been in there listening to what they say and then seeing what KW does. You're in some serious denial if you can't see that this team's failure starts with players making dumb errors and not getting the job done.

Daver
06-16-2002, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by baggio202


2 things...first off.,.any GM that has to have TWO advisors obviously was not prepared to be a major league GM...and 2nd..even if he has these two as advisors doesnt mean he is listening to them...as far as schueler goes..its obvious to anyone he wanted danny evans as his replacement...since he "advised" evans to resign...

youre in some serious denial daver if you cant see this that this teams failures start at the top...

I see you fail to note most of my post.

Why did Schueler advise Evans to resign? If he did,and I have never seen it published that he actually did,it would probably be because Evans is not a good evaluator of draftable talent,and the Sox have always built through the system since JR has owned this team.

As far as having 2 advisors,show me a team that doesn't have at least that many,I know of none,though they may have different titles.

Admit that you have fixated on Kenny being the sum all and be all of all the Sox problems and be done with it.

You have no interest in blaming the players for not performing or the manager for making mistakes,you want to blame Kenny for all that is wrong with this team and call it done.

Your guy Danny Evans would not be in a much better position with the way the players are playing,sorry.

baggio202
06-16-2002, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by daver


I see you fail to note most of my post.

Why did Schueler advise Evans to resign? If he did,and I have never seen it published that he actually did,it would probably be because Evans is not a good evaluator of draftable talent,and the Sox have always built through the system since JR has owned this team.

As far as having 2 advisors,show me a team that doesn't have at least that many,I know of none,though they may have different titles.

Admit that you have fixated on Kenny being the sum all and be all of all the Sox problems and be done with it.

You have no interest in blaming the players for not performing or the manager for making mistakes,you want to blame Kenny for all that is wrong with this team and call it done.

Your guy Danny Evans would not be in a much better position with the way the players are playing,sorry.

kenny williams is the sum of the problems on this team...he put this team together...the responsibility starts at the top..how can you defend the trades he has made??...they suck...how can you like the ritchie trade???...he is no better than sean lowe..except maybe he can eat up a few more innings..whoop t friggen do...clayton is killing us..literally he is sucking the life out of this team...chad bradford has become the set up man in oakland..look at his stats..miguel olivo is floundering in our system..he is still in double A unless he got called up to take paul's place...what was the best trade he made??...eyre for glover???...gee a guy with an era of almost 5 is the best deal he made...wow...

as far as me having no interest in blaming players and managers you are either lying or havent been reading my other posts...i hoping its the latter...i used to back jerry manuel but its obvious he has lost the respect of the players and control of this team and after the carlos lee game i officially joined on the fire manuel bandwagon..despite the fact that KW saddle him with a horrendous pitching staff of unproven rookies and reconstructed arms doesnt give manuel the right to mismange the tam and i feel he has done that and its time for jerry to go..besides he is better suited to manage in the NL and will catch on with a team in the senior circuit and probably fair better his 2nd time around...when manuel goes his staff should go to so the new manager can pick his own people..

as for players...ive written a couple of times that if we got rid of clayton, lee and alomar we would be better even if we just cut them loose..addition by subtraction....clayton last time i checked was 179 out of 179 players eliagble for the batting title in OBP..dead last ..it was 233 then...in the last month lee has no homers and 7 RBI..he is getting worse as each month passes..and alomar cant even go 3 games a week now and when he is out there has possible the worst knowledge of the strike zone as a hitter for anyone not named randall simon...which baffles the bejesus out of me because he is a 13 year veteran behind the plate..the guy has like 2 walks all year...i just blows me away this guys lack of discipline...as far as ritchie goes if we could dump him on somebody just do it..in two years he will be on the waiver wire anyways...

now when are you going to admit williams is a complete screw up???...you and the other apoligists keep saying wells wouldnt pitch as good for us as he is for pittsburgh..thats a crock..the reason he is pitching so well for pittsburgh is he is maturing...he is 25 now and has a few years experience..and even if he didnt mature hs record was never as bad as that bum ritchie's...just keep believing we would be worse off without him...

look what sean estes cost the mets ..a better pitcher than ritchie..a former all star......he cost a slow footed CF thats carrying a 240 average and a career journeyman infielder..

williams stinks...there is no getting around it

and if danny evans was here maybe we wouldnt be all that much better..but i gaurentee todd ritchie would not be here but odalis perez would...evans in an interview in the LA times said he had his eye on perez when danny was an asst with sox...that one move alone would make a world of difference in this team

Daver
06-16-2002, 02:12 AM
Umm Miguel Olivio made the AA All Star team,check your stats.

I never said Williams made great trades,so why do you bring it up? Because that is all you have.

Signing Lofton for next to nothing?

Obviously that means nothing to you.

Tony Graffinino for Tanyon Sturtze?

Nah Graffinino brings nothing to this team.

Admit it,Kenny has never made a move that was not in the best interest of improving this team and let it go.

Beat your drum elsewhere,it sounds hollow here.

KempersRS
06-16-2002, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by daver
Umm Miguel Olivio made the AA All Star team,check your stats.

I never said Williams made great trades,so why do you bring it up? Because that is all you have.

Signing Lofton for next to nothing?

Obviously that means nothing to you.

Tony Graffinino for Tanyon Sturtze?

Nah Graffinino brings nothing to this team.

Admit it,Kenny has never made a move that was not in the best interest of improving this team and let it go.

Beat your drum elsewhere,it sounds hollow here.

He's right, folks. You go, girl.

Daver
06-16-2002, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by KempersRS


He's right, folks. You go, girl.

Girl?

Kilroy
06-16-2002, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by daver
Admit it,Kenny has never made a move that was not in the best interest of improving this team and let it go.

Beat your drum elsewhere,it sounds hollow here.

Daver, with this guy its the same whine every flippin day. Fire Kenny. Ritchie sucks. KW overpaid. Boo ****in hoo.

KempersRS
06-16-2002, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by daver


Girl?

Work with me here!

Daver
06-16-2002, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by KempersRS


Work with me here!

How does that relate to calling me a girl?

KempersRS
06-16-2002, 02:35 AM
GO SOX :)

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 03:27 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Daver, with this guy its the same whine every flippin day. Fire Kenny. Ritchie sucks. KW overpaid. Boo ****in hoo. i am with bags on this one and what is the difference of that compared to fire manuel and nardi rants or clayton sucks rants?????

davers.......... there are only 2 or 3 trades that kw has done that help the team............ but was tony g trade a kw or was it done before with schu????????

chisoxt
06-16-2002, 06:44 AM
Tony Graffinino for Tanyon Sturtze?

Nah Graffinino brings nothing to this team.

This was a Scheuler deal not a Kenny deal.

Otherwise, Baggio raises some excellent points regarding KW. The fact is that KW gave away some solid major league talent with little to show for it in return. These deals will haunt us for years to come. The most aggravating part of this is, is that the quality of players that we received in those trades could have easily been acquired through free agency without giving up anything!

It was obvious to me that during the winter meetings last year, KW was itching to make a deal to show the baseball world how brilliant he is. Next year, KW should follow Schueler's lead and stay home.

oldcomiskey
06-16-2002, 09:03 AM
Im reminded of the line that Kevin Costner said in JFK---getting angry dont accomplish a damn thing now, does it? Its way too late to be bitching about KW or JM or even fat old JR...the bottom line line is we had a wonderful offense at one time who just quit....whose to blame---I do not know-----maybe it is Manuels fault, maybe it is Wards fault---bottom line--admit it----well be damn lucky to finish 500 barring a miracle like we had in 83--and GOD am I praying for another miracle on 35th street---because thats what its gonna take

Tragg
06-16-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by daver
Umm Miguel Olivio made the AA All Star team,check your stats.
.

Tony Graffinino for Tanyon Sturtze?



I believe that was Herb Perry for Sturtze, wasn't it?

I get on my KW rants, but I appreciate the factual perspective you put on it.

duke of dorwood
06-16-2002, 10:48 AM
He still almost traded Garland for Darn Erstadt. He was saved from himself on that one. This goes on his resume too in my opinion.

palehosemike
06-16-2002, 10:49 AM
Simmer down now fellas!

A funny game baseball is........ Just two years ago we were all ranting and raving about how good the Sox were doing and that the talent in the farm system would supply a talented major league team for years to come.

Well now look at us this year, things aren't going as well. That is baseball, plain and simple. There has been alot of talk under this post about KW transaction activity - well lets look at it shall we?

01/14/01 Acquired pitchers David Wells and Matt DeWitt from the Toronto Blue Jays for pitchers Mike Sirotka, Kevin Beirne and Mike Williams and outfielder Brian Simmons.
Now don't lie we were all tickled to see this one at first, but an injury to Wells bit us in the a$$ - hey when was Sirotkas last start?

02/18/01 Extended the contract of manager Jerry Manuel through the 2004 season with a club option for 2005.
JM was coming off a great season - everyone expected & wanted this

03/20/01 Acquired pitcher Mike Williams from the Toronto Blue Jays for pitcher Matt DeWitt.
No-name trade

03/19/01 Acquired pitcher Mike Rupp from the Boston Red Sox as the player to be named in a September 20 trade
Scrub addition from another trade

06/20/01 Jose Canseco, DH, was signed as a free agent
He filled the DH need when Frank went down

06/29/01 Alan Embree, LHP, was acquired from San Francisco in exchange for Derek Hasselhoff, RHP
An attempt to help the bullpen - a bust

07/14/01 McKay Christensen, OF, was traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers in exchange for LHP Wade Parrish.
With a log jam in the outfield there was no room for McKay

07/26/01 James Baldwin, RHP, was traded to Los Angeles for minor leaguers Onan Masaoka, Gary Majewski and Jeff Barry
He would of wanted to much $ to sign - at least we got a bag of balls for him!

02/01/02 Signed free-agent OF Kenny Lofton to a one-year contract.
The blue light special signing of the year

The hot topic so far this year - Kip Wells - Sean Lowe - Josh Fogg for Todd Ritche and that other guy (the minor league catcher)
How many times last year did I hear - Wells sucks - trade him or some other pitching prospect to get a legitimate starter - and KW does it and yes so far it has looked bad, but a trade of this nature sometimes takes a few years to see who got the raw end of the deal, if there is even going to be a raw end.

Marte for Guerrier
Guerrier is 3-7 with a 4.96 ERA - a relief man was needed

Overall most of these transactions made sense - yes there is one right now that stands out but come on who would have known?!?! The FoggWellsgate trade will take a few years to really evaluate. I really would not blame KW for what is going on right now. His moves really have not hurt us - Losing is contagious - it has gotten to everyone on the team - is a shake up warranted? Maybe but how would you respond later if we traded a Carlos Lee and he puts up 2000 numbers next year? Will you be calling for KW head? Sometimes a change in environment does wonders for a player - look at Kip Wells.

PHM

PHM

Tragg
06-16-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by palehosemike
Simmer down now fellas!

Overall most of these transactions made sense - yes there is one right now that stands out but come on who would have known?!?! The FoggWellsgate trade will take a few years to really evaluate. I really would not blame KW for what is going on right now. His moves really have not hurt us PHM

PHM

Aquiring Clayton has hurt us A LOT. Absorbed a lot of payroll, brought an easy out into the lineup (he has always been a terrible hitter) and now we find out he's a whiner as well.

Don't shrug off the Baldwin trade so quickly. Here was an okay starter when contenders need starters. Williams overtly botched the trade (confusing names) and didn't extract near what he could - yes, Baldwin needed to go, but I think this trade, more than any other, showed that Williams is decidedly overmatched.

palehosemike
06-16-2002, 11:41 AM
Baldwin was never cosistent - yet he wanted $$$ to resign - he was not worth it. Those players were a bag of balls as stated in my post - at least we got something for him.

As for Clayton - if we never got him would you really want Jose at SS with his atting woes too and his poor glove? I would prefer Clayton - In April noone talked aout his bat because it was hidden in our lineup - Now that the entire lineup is struggling his bat is really exposed - but shouldn't we be concerned w/ everyone's bat and not just his?
He has been known as a defensive player.

RedPinStripes
06-16-2002, 12:20 PM
Well, I 'm not happy with KW because he didn't get the job because he deserved it or was qualified. It's all about who can take Jerry's privates deeper in this organization.

Baggio and Daver bring good points, but I'm with Baggio on this.

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by palehosemike
Baldwin was never cosistent - yet he wanted $$$ to resign - he was not worth it. Those players were a bag of balls as stated in my post - at least we got something for him.

As for Clayton - if we never got him would you really want Jose at SS with his atting woes too and his poor glove? I would prefer Clayton - In April noone talked aout his bat because it was hidden in our lineup - Now that the entire lineup is struggling his bat is really exposed - but shouldn't we be concerned w/ everyone's bat and not just his?
He has been known as a defensive player. but if the rumors of clayton bad rep is true, then where would we have been if he wasn't on the team.

there is a consistent trend in what you pointed out......... most if almost all of his trade were bust, i do understand the reasoning.. but that does not justify the outcome of the trade.

Tragg
06-16-2002, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by palehosemike
Baldwin was never cosistent - yet he wanted $$$ to resign - he was not worth it. Those players were a bag of balls as stated in my post - at least we got something for him.

As for Clayton - if we never got him would you really want Jose at SS with his atting woes too and his poor glove? I would prefer Clayton - In April noone talked aout his bat because it was hidden in our lineup - Now that the entire lineup is struggling his bat is really exposed - but shouldn't we be concerned w/ everyone's bat and not just his?
He has been known as a defensive player.

The Seattle Mariners think he's worth more than a bag of balls. You and Kenny obviously think not. As long as ONE team thinks he has value, we got snookered.

A LOT of people complained about Clayton, not only in April, but from the moment we got him. Just like a LOT of people pointed out at the time that we aquired Ritchie that we SERIOUSLY overpayed for an average pitcher.
Yes, I am concerned about the bats of Johnson/Alomar, Clayton and Valentin, because, except for a blip now and then, NONE have been anything more than bad hitters. Let's note that Alomar and Clayton were actually aquired by KW - he thought these 2 would actually help the team. Valentin, on the other hand while aquired, was aquired for Navarro and he has helped the team.

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


The Seattle Mariners think he's worth more than a bag of balls. You and Kenny obviously think not. As long as ONE team thinks he has value, we got snookered.

A LOT of people complained about Clayton, not only in April, but from the moment we got him. Just like a LOT of people pointed out at the time that we aquired Ritchie that we SERIOUSLY overpayed for an average pitcher.
Yes, I am concerned about the bats of Johnson/Alomar, Clayton and Valentin, because, except for a blip now and then, NONE have been anything more than bad hitters. Let's note that Alomar and Clayton were actually aquired by KW - he thought these 2 would actually help the team. Valentin, on the other hand while aquired, was aquired for Navarro and he has helped the team. trying to think back on the night of the trade........ there was alot of discussion and most was not in favor of the trade........ i even remember someone mentioning his rep......... ummm

but i was indifferent to the trade.......... while i like jose leadership, i thought we could live with clayton weak bat, range for what i thought was good "d"...... i was wrong then........

baggio202
06-16-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by palehosemike
Baldwin was never cosistent - yet he wanted $$$ to resign - he was not worth it. Those players were a bag of balls as stated in my post - at least we got something for him.

As for Clayton - if we never got him would you really want Jose at SS with his atting woes too and his poor glove? I would prefer Clayton - In April noone talked aout his bat because it was hidden in our lineup - Now that the entire lineup is struggling his bat is really exposed - but shouldn't we be concerned w/ everyone's bat and not just his?
He has been known as a defensive player.

baldwin won his last 4 descisions with the sox before he was traded...if we kept him and let him go free agent wouldnt he have gotten us a couple of supplemental free agents??..or atleast one, right??...but intead he traded him and that pretty much ended any cahcne at us catching the indians...right after that trade we move i believe it was glover from the pen to the rotation and proceeded to lose two out of three to the A's after having the lead in both losses late...the effect the baldwin trade on the sox last year was felt in the pen...had we had baldwin and opur pen was disrupted we could have won those 2 oakland games..gone over 500 and possibly put some pressure on the tribe...instead trading was a mini red flag..

now what did we get for baldwin??...onan masaoka..who williams raved about at the time as being a left handed savior in the pen...then he is released this spring with an era of 40 and we are told he doesnt have a major league curve ball...has anyone even picked that guy up???...i wont even mention "baseball has been berry barry good to me"..we would have been better off just taking the one or two supplemental picks for baldwin..

what did williams say at the time of the baldwin trade??..that baldwin was "just a bridge" to the next wave of pitchers that have arrived and we didnt need him anymore..now fast forward to the winter meeting...where in baseball time thats only two months removed from the trade deadline and the baldwin trade (2 1/2 to be exact in the case of baldwin)...what does williams say...we have to have todd ritchie because we are weak in starting pitching and need a veteran presence???...***??...two months earlier the bridge is complete...now we are so desperate for starting pitching we have to overpay for a 30 journeyman with a grand total of one winnning season...

just a few weeks ago williams admitted he overpaid for ritchie because we needed pitching...dumbass you overpaid with pitching...so even if ritchie was winning 18-20 games a season williams said he would (though i have no clue why he would say that since in his 3 full seasons he has averaged olny 12 wins a season with 15 being his high) we would be stronger on the day ritchie pitched but weaker on the other 4 days...so how does that improve out pitching??

like the sirotka trade..we needed pitching so we trade pitching for pitching and we accomplish nothing...wells for siro??...shouldnt it be a complete failure when the best thing you can say about the trade is ..well atleast the guy we sent them ended up with a career ending injury??...

funny..the only trade i liked at the time that KW made was clayton..because i thought he would add versitility to the team...but i wasnt privy to some info KW was..like another GM that had royce telling KW clayton was clubhouse cancer..but two months into last season that move should have been corrected...if i was the GM i would have admitted hey i made a mistake..im gonna do my best to fix it now....when has kenny ever said that???

i tired of hearing "it was a good trade at the time" from apoligists..part of a GM's job is to have some forsight and a plan..the results of his trades have been disastourous and thats what he needs to be graded on..

whoever said i dont like evans cause he traded sheffield??...do you have any clue whats going on in LA??...sheffield was a worse clubhouse cancer than clayton is here..he had to move sheffield(10 -32 .271) and everyone knew it..what did he get??..brian jordan(11 -38 .292) and odalis perez...perez(7-3 2.62) alone is outperforming sheffield..he is the ace of that staff...he will be going to his first all star game...what a find...KW hasnt come close to pulling off a deal like that...look at jordan's numbers..he too is out performing sheffield...

as for miguel olivo...he is a double A all star..that great..but we need help this year and the guy we traded for him ..chad bradford is now the A's set up man and is 2-1 with a 2.01 era and in 31 ip has 26 k's and only 3 walks..2 of them intentional...but that was a great trade huh??

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by baggio202


in addition, if we subtracted the jb trade, subtract getting sandy, we would have extra talent in draft choices..........

i forgot about that player we got from la and was release.

ref miguel, last yr he had cork in his bat to help him hit........ he might be good on "d", but he can't hit that well in the minors..... how do you think he will do in the "bigs"?

voodoochile
06-16-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by baggio202
now what did we get for baldwin??...onan masaoka..who williams raved about at the time as being a left handed savior in the pen...then he is released this spring with an era of 40 and we are told he doesnt have a major league curve ball...has anyone even picked that guy up???...i wont even mention "baseball has been berry barry good to me"..we would have been better off just taking the one or two supplemental picks for baldwin..

what did williams say at the time of the baldwin trade??..that baldwin was "just a bridge" to the next wave of pitchers that have arrived and we didnt need him anymore..now fast forward to the winter meeting...where in baseball time thats only two months removed from the trade deadline and the baldwin trade (2 1/2 to be exact in the case of baldwin)...what does williams say...we have to have todd ritchie because we are weak in starting pitching and need a veteran presence???...***??...two months earlier the bridge is complete...now we are so desperate for starting pitching we have to overpay for a 30 journeyman with a grand total of one winnning season...

You don't get supplemental picks unless you offer the player in question arbitration, which the Sox never would have done with JB as it would probably have cost them $5 million when no one else stepped in to sign him.

Maybe we did overpay for Ritchie, but there was no way to see that at the time. Lowe wasn't coming back period. Fogg was an AAA middle reliever and Kip had been at best inconsistent. Face it, Ritchie's record in no way reflects how he has pitched this year. He could easily have 7 wins if the team had given him some run-support. Yes, he has had a rough stretch of it recently, but he is still taking the ball and going out there every 5 days. I for one expect him to turn it around pretty soon (hopefully today). You don't like the fact that people are defending this trade from the perspective of when it was made, but what else can one do? Hindsight is always 20/20. It would be lovely to have the benefit of knowing that Kip was suddenly going to get it together and that Fogg was going to burst on the scene THIS YEAR, but no one expected it in the Sox organization. Glad you can look back and feel free to raise Cain over this, but it isn't the way the trade was made and merely sounds like sour grapes. Yes, a GM needs forsight to figure out what a trade will mean down the road, and some of Kenny's trades have been less than spectacular in the long run, still, it isn't like he gave up the core of the team. He gave away bubble players and freed up playing time for others to develop. One other trade that people have not mentioned. He did get Willie Harris for Chris Singleton, which was not that bad of a deal at all...

The rest of your rant is meaningless. Even if Olivio were ready for the bigs THIS YEAR, what makes you think the rest of the team is a pennant contender? You sound like those Tribe fans who got all excited after their 11-1 start and came crashing back to Earth when their balloon popped. It is going to take a lot more than a young stud catcher to turn this team around. They are in disarray at present and there is plenty of blame to go around. Hopefully they find a rhythym and get back on track, but if not there is still plenty of reason to be excited about the future especially if DW and JG can continue to develop.

Lip Man 1
06-16-2002, 01:18 PM
Folks,

Just a thought or two on Kenny Williams.

My personal opinion is that he is not qualified for this job. That he got it in large part because he will do what the owner says (remember his initial press conference where he made the famous statement "I can't ask Jerry Reinsdorf to spend a dollar if he only has fifty cents...", because he'll work for less money then other experience GM's, and because he has the politically correct skin tone.

That being said, I don't think it's fair to blame him for all of this clubs many and varied troubles. The manager and the players have to take some of the responsibility. (personally I think it's more the field managers fault)

And frankly you also have to consider this possibility....that the 2000 season was basically a fluke and that the Sox were never as good as they seemed to be. Look at the win totals since 1997...80, 80, 79, 95, 83. That's pretty mediocre to me.

Lip

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile




Maybe we did overpay for Ritchie, but there was no way to see that at the time. Lowe wasn't coming back period. Fogg was an AAA middle reliever and Kip had been at best inconsistent. Face it, Ritchie's record in no way reflects how he has pitched this year. He could easily have 7 wins if the team had given him some run-support. Yes, he has had a rough stretch of it recently, but he is still taking the ball and going out there every 5 days. I for one expect him to turn it around pretty soon (hopefully today). You don't like the fact that people are defending this trade from the perspective of when it was made, but what else can one do? Hindsight is always 20/20. It would be lovely to have the benefit of knowing that Kip was suddenly going to get it together and that Fogg was going to burst on the scene THIS YEAR, but no one expected it in the Sox organization. Glad you can look back and feel free to raise Cain over this, but it isn't the way the trade was made and merely sounds like sour grapes.


if i remember right, there were few if not more who dislike the trade......... i know i was one of them and never change my stance. in addition there were a few who didn't think at the time that we over paid in that trade........

ref to the jb........... what did he sign for? you may have a point here.

doublem23
06-16-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


I believe that was Herb Perry for Sturtze, wasn't it?


No, Perry was claimed off waivers, the Sox got Graff for Sturtze.

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks,



That being said, I don't think it's fair to blame him for all of this clubs many and varied troubles. The manager and the players have to take some of the responsibility. (personally I think it's more the field managers fault)



Lip r u sure about who is running the team......... some of the things that came out in the press last week, make me believe that maybe kw is calling the shots on who plays and who doesn't........

but then again, what do i know....... :D:

voodoochile
06-16-2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan



if i remember right, there were few if not more who dislike the trade......... i know i was one of them and never change my stance. in addition there were a few who didn't think at the time that we over paid in that trade........

ref to the jb........... what did he sign for? you may have a point here.

JB signed for less than $2 million with the M's. I don't know the exact figure (either $1.2 or $1.9 million, but I can't remember which).

Yes, I know that people thought we overpaid at the time of the trade, but that wasn't baggio's point. Even if it is, you have to factor in the concept that Sean Lowe was NOT coming back to the Sox this year come hell or highwater. He wasn't wanted. He was a throw in. No one knew that Fogg was going to be a solid starter in his first major league season. At best people thought he was going to be a closer on this board, so crying over his solid run of success as a starter is just plain silly. There were almost no Kip Wells supporters around here either. Add in Ritchie's bad luck while playing for the Sox and really, most of this trade's bad vibe came out of the blue. No one thought it would turn out the way it has even if they didn't care for the trade to begin with. Heck the reason's people disliked it were split three ways:

1)"The loss of Fogg is going to hurt us down the road."
2)"The loss of Sean Lowe is going to hurt us immediately."
3)"3 pitchers is too much to give up for 1 in return."

Now that the trade results have been less than spectacular, all of the 3 factions are linking arms and screaming, "we told you so." Well, I'm not buying it...

pudge
06-16-2002, 01:39 PM
As far as I'm concerned, anybody can rant as long as they want about KW, JM or pretty much anyone on the field, cause they all blow. And frankly, they have blown since they've been around, with 2000 being a lucky anomality.

As far as KW goes, I think he must be judged on his big moves, which are basically Wells, Ritchie, and Lofton. Now Lofton gets canceled out, because he really wanted to trade Garland for Erstad - could you IMAGINE? I did not like the Wells move the minute it was made, and no surprise - huge bust. The Ritchie deal intrigued me, I tryed to stay optimistic even though I felt like we gave up too much - and now - ugh.

So rant away my fellow fans, don't let anyone on here say you're ranting is tiresome - because what IS tiresome is watching our beloved club look like cr@p night in and night out.

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile


JB signed for less than $2 million with the M's. I don't know the exact figure (either $1.2 or $1.9 million, but I can't remember which).

Yes, I know that people thought we overpaid at the time of the trade, but that wasn't baggio's point. Even if it is, you have to factor in the concept that Sean Lowe was NOT coming back to the Sox this year come hell or highwater. He wasn't wanted. He was a throw in. No one knew that Fogg was going to be a solid starter in his first major league season. At best people thought he was going to be a closer on this board, so crying over his solid run of success as a starter is just plain silly. There were almost no Kip Wells supporters around here either. Add in Ritchie's bad luck while playing for the Sox and really, most of this trade's bad vibe came out of the blue. No one thought it would turn out the way it has even if they didn't care for the trade to begin with. Heck the reason's people disliked it were split three ways:

1)"The loss of Fogg is going to hurt us down the road."
2)"The loss of Sean Lowe is going to hurt us immediately."
3)"3 pitchers is too much to give up for 1 in return."

Now that the trade results have been less than spectacular, all of the 3 factions are linking arms and screaming, "we told you so." Well, I'm not buying it... taking a look back at the jb trade........... there is no way i thought he was worth the money he was asking for....... however...... i thought the prospect we got for him was weak and to boot, kw didn't get the right name right.... i will back up here on this one....

however, i was a kipper fan and said that the "potential" is too much to give up on.......... i said it then and i will say it now....... in addition i mention that since it was a moot point, we gave up too much for the trade and i was never convince in ritchie and i will still that........... when i see that i am wrong, i will retrack my statement...... there is not too many pitcher who can reach 97 mph and i would be very reluctant to give up on that......

Daver
06-16-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
taking a look back at the jb trade........... there is no way i thought he was worth the money he was asking for....... however...... i thought the prospect we got for him was weak and to boot, kw didn't get the right name right.... i will back up here on this one....

however, i was a kipper fan and said that the "potential" is too much to give up on.......... i said it then and i will say it now....... in addition i mention that since it was a moot point, we gave up too much for the trade and i was never convince in ritchie and i will still that........... when i see that i am wrong, i will retrack my statement...... there is not too many pitcher who can reach 97 mph and i would be very reluctant to give up on that......

The Sox gave Kip Wells two and a half years to develop,how much longer were they supposed to wait?

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by daver


The Sox gave Kip Wells two and a half years to develop,how much longer were they supposed to wait? how old is he..... 24 when he was traded and now 25....... he developed, maybe not the way some expected........... but as long as he kept on developing......... i would still have faith in him.... then again.......... who is to say that nardi was not the reason for his lack of development?

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 01:54 PM
then again who kept on writing about what a ump once said about the talent of the pitchers.......... and ref to kipper........ i think

baggio202
06-16-2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by daver


The Sox gave Kip Wells two and a half years to develop,how much longer were they supposed to wait?

major league scouts say you dont give up on a pitcher until he is either 27 or has logged 400 major league innings..was kip even close to either of those standards???..

neal
06-16-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by palehosemike
hey when was Sirotkas last start

He's still on the DL.

cornball
06-16-2002, 04:29 PM
While many of KW/White Sox moves are questionable at best...i find it hard to believe he is alone in making these moves...especially as a new GM....if i recall it was recommended by Schueller to get Richie who scouted him extensively last year...I am sure it goes to committee....but with KW as the headliner....so the blame lies with all the brass...not just KW..if thats what you want to do.

I believe many of the moves were to bring winning here sooner, which i give them credit for ie Wells, Lofton, Richie......some just turned into a nightmare.....i hope he continues to have guts though, and i hope we get on the winning end of one of the deals.

LongDistanceFan
06-16-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by cornball
While many of KW/White Sox moves are questionable at best...i find it hard to believe he is alone in making these moves...especially as a new GM....if i recall it was recommended by Schueller to get Richie who scouted him extensively last year...I am sure it goes to committee....but with KW as the headliner....so the blame lies with all the brass...not just KW..if thats what you want to do.

I believe many of the moves were to bring winning here sooner, which i give them credit for ie Wells, Lofton, Richie......some just turned into a nightmare.....i hope he continues to have guts though, and i hope we get on the winning end of one of the deals. the guts to do more trades........... yup like the famous trade that never happen........ garland and who and who for erstad

wwhere did you hear or see the schu scouted him

TornLabrum
06-16-2002, 07:46 PM
While many of KW/White Sox moves are questionable at best...i find it hard to believe he is alone in making these moves...especially as a new GM....if i recall it was recommended by Schueller to get Richie who scouted him extensively last year...I am sure it goes to committee....but with KW as the headliner....so the blame lies with all the brass...not just KW..if thats what you want to do.

Harry Truman had a sign on his desk when he was President. It said, "The buck stops here." Kenny Williams is the man with the VP after his name and is the de facto GM. He is responsible for the trades he makes and the results. And I'm sure he has the guts not to hide behind some committee and take responsiblity. The blame lies with him because he's the one with the title.

Tragg
06-16-2002, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile




Maybe we did overpay for Ritchie, but there was no way to see that at the time. Lowe wasn't coming back period. Fogg was an AAA middle reliever and Kip had been at best inconsistent.

And what was Ritchie? An AVERAGE pitcher.
Sure, we didn't know that Wells and Fogg could pitch in the majors. But, they both were young, they both had live arms - do you give that potential up for mediocrity? I wouldn't, some might, but to say that there is no way to see that we overpaid I think is an overstatement.
Plus, we gave a pitcher, Lowe, who pitched well for us last year.

Daver
06-16-2002, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Tragg


And what was Ritchie? An AVERAGE pitcher.
Sure, we didn't know that Wells and Fogg could pitch in the majors. But, they both were young, they both had live arms - do you give that potential up for mediocrity? I wouldn't, some might, but to say that there is no way to see that we overpaid I think is an overstatement.
Plus, we gave a pitcher, Lowe, who pitched well for us last year.

But like VC pointed out,Lowe was not going to be back,regardless of what the Sox got in return.I don't know what he did to get on Managements bad side,but he was there in a big way.

guillen4life13
06-16-2002, 09:47 PM
here's the point voodoo was trying to make: who had any idea that fogg and wells were going to do this? let's be honest... i don't ever remember wells getting up to 97 mph with consistency. i remember him being more in the 92-94 mph range. Fogg was projected to be if anything, a closer or one of the bridge pitchers. Sean lowe was already gone.. and anyways he hasn't produced out in pittsburgh (last time i checked. he may have gotten back on track but idk). When I saw the trade, i was torn, because I thought we were actually getting a consistent starter, whose era would be in the 4-4.5 range. that's what it was last year w/ pittsburgh. on the other hand, i thought that kip fell apart in the 2nd half, but i just thought that he might finally be able to make it the whole way this year. ritchie hasn't come through... but we don't know if wells and fogg will keep it up, do we? remember last year? at this time, kip's era was in the 2's (I remember him having a 2.57 going into game 3 of the cubs sox series @ comiskey, or around that time). The game he fell apart in was out in boston if I remember right. a comebacker hit him, and he was never the same from that point on. while, so far this move has been a flop... give ritchie a little bit more time.

Kilroy
06-16-2002, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
... give ritchie a little bit more time.

In truth, we might not see Ritchie pitch well at all this season. The Chimp actually made a good point about Ritchie today that he may bey trying to prove that he's worth the trade that was made and that could be why he isn't performing as well as he could. You think he doesn't read the papers? He knows people say that KW gave up too much.

For a while, Ritchie pitched pretty damn good, and had nothing to show for it, now he's pitching pretty bad. I think he'll get himself straightened out.

cornball
06-17-2002, 07:52 AM
There is no question that the buck stops with KW, just as the bus stops with JR as minority owner.

KW said at the time of the Richie trade that Schu scouted Richie and believed he would be a 15-20 winner with offensive support. That his stuff is that good, just wrong place for him.

I just wish we could be in a win/win or win a trade outright at some point. I do understand the moves were designed for this year, as they should be, with us all thinking we would be better than shown thus far this year.

Sad
06-17-2002, 09:09 AM
well I agree with one thing...

Todd Ritchie SUCKS BIG TIME!
and I'm tired of hearing about how "he doesnt get any run support...."

Bah-WAHHHHHH!!! :whiner:

low run support (save for yesterday) has nothing to do with the fact that his pitches fool NOBODY! what a MAJOR disappointment... MAJOR! :angry:

Iwritecode
06-17-2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
who is to say that nardi was not the reason for his lack of development?

That is the one thing that I notice that nobody else seems to mention. It's really amazing to see all these pitchers (Wells, Fogg, Bradford...) that the Sox trade suddenly learn how to pitch as soon as they get away from him. Then as soon as Ritchie gets under him he forgets how to pitch...

TornLabrum
06-17-2002, 10:57 AM
KW said at the time of the Richie trade that Schu scouted Richie and believed he would be a 15-20 winner with offensive support. That his stuff is that good, just wrong place for him.

I just wish we could be in a win/win or win a trade outright at some point. I do understand the moves were designed for this year, as they should be, with us all thinking we would be better than shown thus far this year.

I wonder if Schueler also told Lenny that Ritchie was worth three arms.

To comment on an earlier post, I really don't care whether or not Lowe was on Lenny's bad side. That's something he has to get over if he wants to deal from a position of strength and not weakness. The Pirates might just have well as stuck a gun in Lenny's face and demanded that he turn over the loot.

To top it off, when Lenny said a couple of weeks ago that Wells and Fogg wouldn't be doing as well here as in Pittsburgh, that just shows either his unfounded arrogance or it serves as an idictment of our pitching coach. Either way, Lenny comes off as an idiot. :angry:

LongDistanceFan
06-17-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum



To top it off, when Lenny said a couple of weeks ago that Wells and Fogg wouldn't be doing as well here as in Pittsburgh, that just shows either his unfounded arrogance or it serves as an idictment of our pitching coach. Either way, Lenny comes off as an idiot. :angry: he may have a point...... nardi is still here and is the coach