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BainesHOF
03-23-2010, 04:31 AM
Assuming Jones keeps hitting well, I think he's got to be our center fielder. The guy's one of the best defensive center fielders of all time. Sure, he's slowed some, but I reckon he's still the best defensive center fielder we have on the team.

That moves Rios to right field. He can field. Hopefully he returns to form at the plate.

So, what do we do with Pierre and Quentin? I put Quentin in left and make Pierre the DH with Pierre not being able to throw a lick.

I'm happy with that outfield, but I'm not happy with the thought of Pierre being the DH. You need a stronger DH. Now, I'd be more comfortable with Quentin in the DH slot and Pierre in left from an offensive-matching-position perspective, but I don't think that would be the way to go defensively. Quentin, because of his arm, is a significantly better left fielder than Pierre.

I think our suddenly crowded outfield (throw Kotsay in the mix at times) has a good chance to be problematic both lineup-wise and personality-wise. I suspect these players are all going to want to play the field and some prefer specific positions. For instance, Quentin has been looking forward to playing right, which he perceives as his best position (though I would strongly disagree with his perception). You can bet Pierre wants to play the field all the time.

masloan
03-23-2010, 05:37 AM
Assuming Jones keeps hitting well, I think he's got to be our center fielder. The guy's one of the best defensive center fielders of all time. Sure, he's slowed some, but I reckon he's still the best defensive center fielder we have on the team.

That moves Rios to right field. He can field. Hopefully he returns to form at the plate.

So, what do we do with Pierre and Quentin? I put Quentin in left and make Pierre the DH with Pierre not being able to throw a lick.

I'm happy with that outfield, but I'm not happy with the thought of Pierre being the DH. You need a stronger DH. Now, I'd be more comfortable with Quentin in the DH slot and Pierre in left from an offensive-matching-position perspective, but I don't think that would be the way to go defensively. Quentin, because of his arm, is a significantly better left fielder than Pierre.

I think our suddenly crowded outfield (throw Kotsay in the mix at times) has a good chance to be problematic both lineup-wise and personality-wise. I suspect these players are all going to want to play the field and some prefer specific positions. For instance, Quentin has been looking forward to playing right, which he perceives as his best position (though I would strongly disagree with his perception). You can bet Pierre wants to play the field all the time.

Why are people so worried about the "DH"? You obviously have confidence in Andruw Jones based on this post, so what is the difference in your mind if he is the DH and Pierre is OF or vice versa?

TomBradley72
03-23-2010, 08:10 AM
If I moved anyone to DH....it would be Quentin....more from an injury avoidance perspective than anything else.

DrCrawdad
03-23-2010, 08:22 AM
Assuming Jones keeps hitting well, I think he's got to be our center fielder. The guy's one of the best defensive center fielders of all time. Sure, he's slowed some, but I reckon he's still the best defensive center fielder we have on the team.

That moves Rios to right field. He can field. Hopefully he returns to form at the plate.

So, what do we do with Pierre and Quentin? I put Quentin in left and make Pierre the DH with Pierre not being able to throw a lick.

I'm happy with that outfield, but I'm not happy with the thought of Pierre being the DH. You need a stronger DH. Now, I'd be more comfortable with Quentin in the DH slot and Pierre in left from an offensive-matching-position perspective, but I don't think that would be the way to go defensively. Quentin, because of his arm, is a significantly better left fielder than Pierre.

I think our suddenly crowded outfield (throw Kotsay in the mix at times) has a good chance to be problematic both lineup-wise and personality-wise. I suspect these players are all going to want to play the field and some prefer specific positions. For instance, Quentin has been looking forward to playing right, which he perceives as his best position (though I would strongly disagree with his perception). You can bet Pierre wants to play the field all the time.

Jones was a very good CF'er in his prime, but he's clearly past that. IMHO Rios is the better candidate for CF with Jones in RF.

voodoochile
03-23-2010, 08:30 AM
That's the whole rotating DH thing Ozzie wants. All of them play the field and all of them DH and Jones rotates between DH/RF/CF depending on who is off. Quentin does RF/LF/DH. Pierre does LF/DH. Rios Does RF/CF/DH. That way they all keep their legs fresher and play almost every day.

Oh and having too much talent is never a bad thing...

JohnTucker0814
03-23-2010, 09:00 AM
That's the whole rotating DH thing Ozzie wants. All of them play the field and all of them DH and Jones rotates between DH/RF/CF depending on who is off. Quentin does RF/LF/DH. Pierre does LF/DH. Rios Does RF/CF/DH. That way they all keep their legs fresher and play almost every day.

Oh and having too much talent is never a bad thing...

This was exactly what I thought was Ozzie's vision for the DH position and why he DIDN'T want Thome back. He wants to use the DH to give guys a rest but still keep their bat in the line-up. With Thome at DH, he was going to play on most every day, so if any other player needed a rest, they had the entire day off. With this rotating DH, he can give those guys a little rest and let them just hit!

I love this team at this point. Yeah, I'd like to have all-stars at each position, but you take what you've got... and you support them!

cws05champ
03-23-2010, 09:24 AM
If I moved anyone to DH....it would be Quentin....more from an injury avoidance perspective than anything else.
Not everyone can hit as just a DH all the time. We are so used to a Frank Thomas and Jim Thome, that we forget that when a player is used to playing the field his hitting may suffer if he just DH's. Quentin is such an over thinker, do you really think he would benefit by not going out in the field to forget about that last at bat. He may crash and burn as a full time DH.....he may not, but I'd be willing to let him play RF for at least the early part of the season to see how he plays there.

asindc
03-23-2010, 09:25 AM
Another example of why the wait-and-see approach is best. Jones is a wild-card, no doubt, and Rios is also to a lesser extent. Factor in as well TCQ possibly moving to RF for a significant number of games, those are a lot of new factors to consider. Ozzie probably won't know what he has with the OF/DH/1B (including Kotsay here) platoon until at least a month into the season. Of course, if any of these guys proves to be Betemit-bad in his new role, Ozzie's decisions with regard to the platoon gets easier while KW's job gets a lot more difficult.

HomeFish
03-23-2010, 09:38 AM
Even I have trouble finding a problem with this arrangement. Kenny did a good job in acquiring all of these guys; while not all of them will pan out, chances are good that at least two of them will.

beasly213
03-23-2010, 09:40 AM
Carlos should not be th full time DH. He is the last guy on the team you would want sitting in the dugout for an hour thinking about a bad at bat. Looks like we're doing a roating DH which we'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

jabrch
03-23-2010, 10:49 AM
That's the whole rotating DH thing Ozzie wants. All of them play the field and all of them DH and Jones rotates between DH/RF/CF depending on who is off. Quentin does RF/LF/DH. Pierre does LF/DH. Rios Does RF/CF/DH. That way they all keep their legs fresher and play almost every day.

Oh and having too much talent is never a bad thing...


Better still, adding Kotsay and Konerko into this rotation (PK can DH a game a week and Kotsay can play 1B or an OF spot) and even letting AJ DH if he isn't catching...

DH could be a strength for us this year in that it could allow for a lot of guys to stay in the lineup and not have to field every day.

jabrch
03-23-2010, 10:50 AM
I love this team at this point. Yeah, I'd like to have all-stars at each position, but you take what you've got... and you support them!

Or you can go out and bash it when you want - all depends on your personality. I like your approach until the team proves that it isn't worthy of support.

munchman33
03-23-2010, 10:56 AM
Better still, adding Kotsay and Konerko into this rotation (PK can DH a game a week and Kotsay can play 1B or an OF spot) and even letting AJ DH if he isn't catching...

DH could be a strength for us this year in that it could allow for a lot of guys to stay in the lineup and not have to field every day.

The only problem is it relies on having an extra everyday player, which we do not.

Did the original poster really suggest Jones play CF? He's a shell of his former self on both sides of the ball. I'm just as hesitant to put him in left as I am in the DH role.

TomBradley72
03-23-2010, 11:02 AM
Jones' spring sure does minimize my worries about the DH slot.

My biggest concern is 3rd base....not based on Teahen's spring training...but based on his history...strikes out alot, average on defense....I don't understand signing him for 3 years before he's done anything for the club.

jabrch
03-23-2010, 11:05 AM
Jones' spring sure does minimize my worries about the DH slot.

My biggest concern is 3rd base....not based on Teahen's spring training...but based on his history...strikes out alot, average on defense....I don't understand signing him for 3 years before he's done anything for the club.


If our biggest weakness is 3B, we are in pretty good shape, right?

I'm not sure I understand the rush to sign him 3 years either. I am guessing that Williams was betting on the come. I'd like to see how Teahen plays when his shoulder heals.

voodoochile
03-23-2010, 11:10 AM
The only problem is it relies on having an extra everyday player, which we do not.

Did the original poster really suggest Jones play CF? He's a shell of his former self on both sides of the ball. I'm just as hesitant to put him in left as I am in the DH role.

He's looked just fine in CF in the games I've watched this spring...

munchman33
03-23-2010, 11:11 AM
Jones' spring sure does minimize my worries about the DH slot.

My biggest concern is 3rd base....not based on Teahen's spring training...but based on his history...strikes out alot, average on defense....I don't understand signing him for 3 years before he's done anything for the club.

Why should Jones' spring minimize your worries? Are you under the assumption he's in Charlotte all year? Look at who he's picking up hits against. It's better than not getting hits, sure, but it's not worth getting excited over either.

munchman33
03-23-2010, 11:13 AM
He's looked just fine in CF in the games I've watched this spring...

We must have a different angle of the field. :cool:

Haven't seen it, haven't seen much spring training this year. I know his UZR's have been bad in center recently. edit: I take that back, his UZR in center last year was a respectable 2.5. Not good, but average. He's not Rios though.

jabrch
03-23-2010, 11:13 AM
He's looked just fine in CF in the games I've watched this spring...


Your eyes betray you VC. You should know better by now. People have been telling you that for nearly a decade. Why are you so stupid that you don't understand?

cws05champ
03-23-2010, 11:29 AM
He's looked just fine in CF in the games I've watched this spring...
Same here, but I still wouldn't want him over Rios in CF everyday. To suggest Jones as CF everyday is ridiculous at this point. I know Jones hitting well in ST makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy as much as Teahen struggling makes everyone worried. It means jack until April 5th. Jones could tank in the regular season and Teahen could tear it up...history is littered with guys who tore up the Spring and went into the tank and vice versa.

jabrch
03-23-2010, 11:31 AM
Same here, but I still wouldn't want him over Rios in CF everyday. To suggest Jones as CF everyday is ridiculous at this point. I know Jones hitting well in ST makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy as much as Teahen struggling makes everyone worried. It means jack until April 5th. Jones could tank in the regular season and Teahen could tear it up...history is littered with guys who tore up the Spring and went into the tank and vice versa.


Agreed...wait and see before you draw conclusions about this is a good approach. Panicking and determining any player a lost cause at this point is pure speculation.

delben91
03-23-2010, 11:40 AM
If (note the "if"), Jones and Rios' respective spring showings are even halfway indicative of their performance in 2010, I think the OF and DH worries lessen dramatically. In a similar vein to "you can never have enough good starting pitching" because the starters that don't make the rotation slide into the bullpen, thus pushing out your weakest relievers, the same can be said of a "too crowded" outfield.

I'd take Rios in CF over Jones any day, regardless of the weight-loss Andruw has achieved, but if someone has to take over CF on a day Rios draws DH duty, I like having a choice other than Pierre in Jones. (Oh where have you gone Rob Mackowiak?)

Even average offensive years from Rios and Jones make this team much more complete offensively, and has the bonus of keeping Rios on the field and patroling center.

All this of course is dependent on what's happening in ST carrying over to the regular season. Though, I'd rather have them performing well in Arizona versus not.

TomBradley72
03-23-2010, 12:11 PM
Why should Jones' spring minimize your worries? Are you under the assumption he's in Charlotte all year? Look at who he's picking up hits against. It's better than not getting hits, sure, but it's not worth getting excited over either.

He's had a good spring, he's in great shape, rave reviews from Kenny & Ozzie, wasn't that worried overall to begin with....more worried about 3rd base.

guillensdisciple
03-23-2010, 12:32 PM
The White Sox will be fine this year. Andruw Jones will win cpoy and Kenny Williams will continue being a beacon of light in every Sox fan's heart.

munchman33
03-23-2010, 01:04 PM
Agreed...wait and see before you draw conclusions about this is a good approach. Panicking and determining any player a lost cause at this point is pure speculation.

Many would argue taking a "wait and see" approach before drawing conclusions on a player like Jones would be foolish. In fact, I've been hearing that argument quite a bit...from baseball analysts.

Seriously, have you heard anyone outside of this website refer to our 3-headed DH monster as anything other than a terrible idea? What should that tell you?

He's had a good spring, he's in great shape, rave reviews from Kenny & Ozzie, wasn't that worried overall to begin with....more worried about 3rd base.

You weren't worried about the DH position to begin with? And you're basing that on reports of extremely biased individuals despite scouting reports, recent history, and common sense? Come on... I understand if your worries shifted more to 3B, but to say the DH isn't a cause for serious concern is preposterous.

Mohoney
03-23-2010, 01:28 PM
Jones' spring sure does minimize my worries about the DH slot.

My biggest concern is 3rd base....not based on Teahen's spring training...but based on his history...strikes out alot, average on defense....I don't understand signing him for 3 years before he's done anything for the club.

I think 3B should be a platoon, with Nix starting there against LHP.

beasly213
03-23-2010, 01:45 PM
The White Sox will be fine this year. Andruw Jones will win cpoy and Kenny Williams will continue being a beacon of light in every Sox fan's heart.

I'm not sure if this should be in teal or pink....

NLaloosh
03-23-2010, 01:56 PM
Assuming Jones keeps hitting well, I think he's got to be our center fielder. The guy's one of the best defensive center fielders of all time. Sure, he's slowed some, but I reckon he's still the best defensive center fielder we have on the team.

That moves Rios to right field. He can field. Hopefully he returns to form at the plate.

So, what do we do with Pierre and Quentin? I put Quentin in left and make Pierre the DH with Pierre not being able to throw a lick.

I'm happy with that outfield, but I'm not happy with the thought of Pierre being the DH. You need a stronger DH. Now, I'd be more comfortable with Quentin in the DH slot and Pierre in left from an offensive-matching-position perspective, but I don't think that would be the way to go defensively. Quentin, because of his arm, is a significantly better left fielder than Pierre.

I think our suddenly crowded outfield (throw Kotsay in the mix at times) has a good chance to be problematic both lineup-wise and personality-wise. I suspect these players are all going to want to play the field and some prefer specific positions. For instance, Quentin has been looking forward to playing right, which he perceives as his best position (though I would strongly disagree with his perception). You can bet Pierre wants to play the field all the time.


You've just explained Ozzie's reasoning for his rotating DH plan.

BainesHOF
03-23-2010, 01:57 PM
To suggest Jones as CF everyday is ridiculous at this point.

No, it's not.

Jones has won 10 Gold Gloves and is just 32 years old. Assuming he continues to hit, and that's a possibility given that he's in the best shape that he's been in in years, then you'd want his defense and bat in the lineup.

I can't personally say one way or the other as I haven't seen him nearly enough this spring to make a final judgement, but it doesn't take a baseball genius either to speculate that Jones could be the best defensive center field on our team. If I remember correctly, Darrin Jackson said during a spring-training radio broadcast that Jones is our best defensive center fielder.

NLaloosh
03-23-2010, 02:02 PM
The concern with Jones should not be his defense but his offense.

He's not as good as we was in CF and he may not be better than Rios but he's still better there than what the Sox have had in recent years.

He needs to hit consistently in order for him to help the Sox anywhere.

NLaloosh
03-23-2010, 02:12 PM
It seems like the plan for 5 of these 6 guys to play while one rests is turning out to be a good one especially considering the ages and injury history of these guys.

It really is a good mix of talent with Konerko, Kotsay, Rios, Jones, Quentin and Pierre.

I'm thinking the only real concern now is Teahen. He is a proven big leaguer but the Sox can't afford to have a down year from him. Nix is a nice bench player but I wouldn't want him getting 300 at bats.

But, all told, it looks like the Sox have fewer question marks than almost any team. Santos as the 7th guy in the pen looks pretty damn cool. I can't remember the last time I was excited to watch a bullpen - Jenks, Thornton, Pena, Putz, Williams, Linebrink and Santos could be the best in baseball.

And, so could the rotation. It's hard not to get excited or believe that they won't make the playoffs.

sox1970
03-23-2010, 02:14 PM
It seems like the plan for 5 of these 6 guys to play while one rests is turning out to be a good one especially considering the ages and injury history of these guys.

It really is a good mix of talent with Konerko, Kotsay, Rios, Jones, Quentin and Pierre.

I'm thinking the only real concern now is Teahen. He is a proven big leaguer but the Sox can't afford to have a down year from him. Nix is a nice bench player but I wouldn't want him getting 300 at bats.

But, all told, it looks like the Sox have fewer question marks than almost any team. Santos as the 7th guy in the pen looks pretty damn cool. I can't remember the last time I was excited to watch a bullpen - Jenks, Thornton, Pena, Putz, Williams, Linebrink and Santos could be the best in baseball.

And, so could the rotation. It's hard not to get excited or believe that they won't make the playoffs.

Careful...

jabrch
03-23-2010, 02:22 PM
And, so could the rotation. It's hard not to get excited or believe that they won't make the playoffs.

You must not read WSI much. There are a lot of folks here who have no problem not being excited about this team and even less of a hard time believing that this team won't make the playoffs.

Craig Grebeck
03-23-2010, 02:47 PM
Not everyone can hit as just a DH all the time. We are so used to a Frank Thomas and Jim Thome, that we forget that when a player is used to playing the field his hitting may suffer if he just DH's. Quentin is such an over thinker, do you really think he would benefit by not going out in the field to forget about that last at bat. He may crash and burn as a full time DH.....he may not, but I'd be willing to let him play RF for at least the early part of the season to see how he plays there.

Carlos should not be th full time DH. He is the last guy on the team you would want sitting in the dugout for an hour thinking about a bad at bat. Looks like we're doing a roating DH which we'll have to wait and see how it plays out.
Good points fellas.
Or you can go out and bash it when you want - all depends on your personality. I like your approach until the team proves that it isn't worthy of support.
Or they can prove to me signing washed-up pieces of **** wasn't a stupid idea. Until then, I'm going to say it was stupid.

Carolina Kenny
03-23-2010, 02:54 PM
It seems like the plan for 5 of these 6 guys to play while one rests is turning out to be a good one especially considering the ages and injury history of these guys.

It really is a good mix of talent with Konerko, Kotsay, Rios, Jones, Quentin and Pierre.

I'm thinking the only real concern now is Teahen. He is a proven big leaguer but the Sox can't afford to have a down year from him. Nix is a nice bench player but I wouldn't want him getting 300 at bats.

But, all told, it looks like the Sox have fewer question marks than almost any team. Santos as the 7th guy in the pen looks pretty damn cool. I can't remember the last time I was excited to watch a bullpen - Jenks, Thornton, Pena, Putz, Williams, Linebrink and Santos could be the best in baseball.

And, so could the rotation. It's hard not to get excited or believe that they won't make the playoffs.

The combination of Teahen and Nix make me think of Vance Law and Lorenzo Gray from 1983. On that team we had great offensive production from other positions. Can we afford a Vance Law type performance this year?

khan
03-23-2010, 02:58 PM
1. Many Immortal Legends and Golden Gods have solidified their Hall of Fame credentials hitting the crap out of ST pitching. [Didn't BA have a Legendary spring training in '08 or '09?]

2. There is no better tonic to a hitter than pitchers merely trying to locate their fastballs in the thin Arizona air, and AA/AAA nobodies struggling to make it in ST with their minor league quality-stuff.

3. How anyone can state that Jones is in the "best shape in years" without having actively followed his career is beyond me, unless they also believe in the easter bunny, too. All kidding aside, virtually every player in MLB states that he's in "the best shape" in each and every ST.

4. I remain dubious that Jones will be able to do anything of note, without some sort of chemical aid. This, since he hasn't bothered to do anything of note since MLB started testing. [Unless he has the new, undetectable stuff.]

soltrain21
03-23-2010, 03:04 PM
1. Many Immortal Legends and Golden Gods have solidified their Hall of Fame credentials hitting the crap out of ST pitching. [Didn't BA have a Legendary spring training in '08 or '09?]

2. There is no better tonic to a hitter than pitchers merely trying to locate their fastballs in the thin Arizona air, and AA/AAA nobodies struggling to make it in ST with their minor league quality-stuff.

3. How anyone can state that Jones is in the "best shape in years" without having actively followed his career is beyond me, unless they also believe in the easter bunny, too. All kidding aside, virtually every player in MLB states that he's in "the best shape" in each and every ST.

4. I remain dubious that Jones will be able to do anything of note, without some sort of chemical aid. This, since he hasn't bothered to do anything of note since MLB started testing. [Unless he has the new, undetectable stuff.]

Only one I disagree with. You can see how great of shape he is in by just looking at him. Did you not see him the last couple years? It looked like he ate Augie Ojeda.

asindc
03-23-2010, 03:11 PM
1. Many Immortal Legends and Golden Gods have solidified their Hall of Fame credentials hitting the crap out of ST pitching. [Didn't BA have a Legendary spring training in '08 or '09?]

2. There is no better tonic to a hitter than pitchers merely trying to locate their fastballs in the thin Arizona air, and AA/AAA nobodies struggling to make it in ST with their minor league quality-stuff.

3. How anyone can state that Jones is in the "best shape in years" without having actively followed his career is beyond me, unless they also believe in the easter bunny, too. All kidding aside, virtually every player in MLB states that he's in "the best shape" in each and every ST.

4. I remain dubious that Jones will be able to do anything of note, without some sort of chemical aid. This, since he hasn't bothered to do anything of note since MLB started testing. [Unless he has the new, undetectable stuff.]

In case you are not aware, MLB began testing in 2003.

voodoochile
03-23-2010, 03:14 PM
Careful...


Yeah, he left of the word "ever" and it would be complete...:tongue:

voodoochile
03-23-2010, 03:15 PM
In case you are not aware, MLB began testing in 2003.

That's the part that gets overlooked. He had his two best years in 2005 and 2006 right when you'd expect a player to peak according to his age...

asindc
03-23-2010, 03:17 PM
That's the part that gets overlooked. He had his two best years in 2005 and 2006 right when you'd expect a player to peak according to his age...

Either overlooked, forgotten, or simply ignored.

khan
03-23-2010, 03:25 PM
In case you are not aware, MLB began testing in 2003.

Actually, mandatory random testing began in 2004, but the Joint Drug and Treatment Program was adopted in the spring of 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_drug_policy


EDIT: Do you have a link that states that testing began in '03? Because I've looked, and I haven't seen anything to this effect.

Edit #2: Or are you speaking to the "survey" testing that caught A-Rod, Ortiz, and Sosa, but witheld any sort of punishment for positive results?

spawn
03-23-2010, 03:32 PM
Actually, mandatory random testing began in 2004, but the Joint Drug and Treatment Program was adopted in the spring of 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_drug_policy


EDIT: Do you have a link that states that testing began in '03? Because I've looked, and I haven't seen anything to this effect.

Edit #2: Or are you speaking to the "survey" testing that caught A-Rod, Ortiz, and Sosa, but witheld any sort of punishment for positive results?
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/drug_policy.jsp?content=timeline

asindc
03-23-2010, 03:37 PM
Actually, mandatory random testing began in 2004, but the Joint Drug and Treatment Program was adopted in the spring of 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_drug_policy


EDIT: Do you have a link that states that testing began in '03? Because I've looked, and I haven't seen anything to this effect.

Edit #2: Or are you speaking to the "survey" testing that caught A-Rod, Ortiz, and Sosa, but witheld any sort of punishment for positive results?

You are correct in that mandatory testing began in Spring 2004. I was thinking of the announced date:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20031113&content_id=603458&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Of course, many players were tested in 2003, though those tests were not mandatory:
http://www.willamette.edu/wucl/pdf/sportslaw/spring05/rusch.pdf on page 12, footnote 72.

The point remains that after mandatory testing began Jones put up monster seasons.

khan
03-23-2010, 03:37 PM
Only one I disagree with. You can see how great of shape he is in by just looking at him. Did you not see him the last couple years? It looked like he ate Augie Ojeda.

The bigger point here is this:

Let's ASSUME for a minute that he is IN FACT in "the best shape in years."

IF this is in fact the case, why wouldn't he have taken measures earlier to be "in shape" when the Rangers signed him? Is he lazy? Stupid? Weak? Do they not have gyms in Curacao? What is it?

I'd be more encouraged about Jones if the SOX were the first club to take a flier on him, after he'd stolen $36.2M without a gun from the Dodgers.

Suffice it to say that Jones isn't the first, and he won't be the last player to state that he's "in the best shape in years." The fact that he WAS in poor shape [AT BEST] speaks ill about his dedication to his body.

At WORST, it suggests that he might have stopped doing something that made him become craptacular at baseball at merely 30 years of age.

khan
03-23-2010, 03:40 PM
You are correct in that mandatory testing began in Spring 2004. I was thinking of the announced date:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20031113&content_id=603458&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Of course, many players were tested in 2003, though those tests were not mandatory:
http://www.willamette.edu/wucl/pdf/sportslaw/spring05/rusch.pdf on page 12, footnote 72.

The point remains that after mandatory testing began Jones put up monster seasons.

If memory serves, until 2006, the testing was confined to ST, no?

Even if it WASN'T, the penalties for a 1st time offender in 2004-2005 were weak, at best. [10 game suspension?]

thedudeabides
03-23-2010, 03:44 PM
The bigger point here is this:

Let's ASSUME for a minute that he is IN FACT in "the best shape in years."

IF this is in fact the case, why wouldn't he have taken measures earlier to be "in shape" when the Rangers signed him? Is he lazy? Stupid? Weak? Do they not have gyms in Curacao? What is it?

I'd be more encouraged about Jones if the SOX were the first club to take a flier on him, after he'd stolen $36.2M without a gun from the Dodgers.

Suffice it to say that Jones isn't the first, and he won't be the last player to state that he's "in the best shape in years." The fact that he WAS in poor shape [AT BEST] speaks ill about his dedication to his body.

At WORST, it suggests that he might have stopped doing something that made him become craptacular at baseball at merely 30 years of age.

He had knee problems and a subsequent surgery, along with other lower body injuries. Not an excuse not to take the weight off eventually, as clearly some of his problem was work ethic and drive.

Some people are optomistic because he clearly looks like he is in better condition than he has been for about 5 years. He also has looked good in CF, is stealing bases, and looks like he has made some solid adjustments to his swing.

It doesn't mean he'll amount to anything this season, but those are reasons for optimism.

asindc
03-23-2010, 03:45 PM
The bigger point here is this:

Let's ASSUME for a minute that he is IN FACT in "the best shape in years."

IF this is in fact the case, why wouldn't he have taken measures earlier to be "in shape" when the Rangers signed him? Is he lazy? Stupid? Weak? Do they not have gyms in Curacao? What is it?

I'd be more encouraged about Jones if the SOX were the first club to take a flier on him, after he'd stolen $36.2M without a gun from the Dodgers.

Suffice it to say that Jones isn't the first, and he won't be the last player to state that he's "in the best shape in years." The fact that he WAS in poor shape [AT BEST] speaks ill about his dedication to his body.

At WORST, it suggests that he might have stopped doing something that made him become craptacular at baseball at merely 30 years of age.

What it suggests is that once he realized not another team is going to be foolish enough to give him $36 million to play baseball for two years, he finally woke his fat, lazy ass up and worked hard to get in shape. It took him over a year to wake up, true, but it appears that he has.

Look, the only reason anyone is taking note of this is because we want to see signs that Jones will approach the game differently this year than the past three years. The weight loss, apparent better conditioning, and admission before ST started that he had in fact gotten fat and lazy are signs of progress.

Do they guarantee results? Not At All. But they indicate a different, better approach to his profession than he had displayed in the past three years, which is a reason to feel good about his prospects for this season.

thedudeabides
03-23-2010, 03:50 PM
If memory serves, until 2006, the testing was confined to ST, no?

Even if it WASN'T, the penalties for a 1st time offender in 2004-2005 were weak, at best. [10 game suspension?]

No. The tests were random and done throughout the year. There were a whole bunch of positive tests and in 2005 the suspension was 50 games.

Here's a list:

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/list-mlb-positive-tests.htm

khan
03-23-2010, 03:50 PM
Perhaps this is why Jones hadn't been caught cheating when had some success in 2004 and 2005:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/13/sports/baseball/13waxman.html

Interesting that Sen. Mitchell had reason to believe that the players were given advance notice in 2004-2005 before they were tested.

It's also notable that the supposed random steroid testing in 2004 was suspended for a large portion of the season.


Now, I'm not stating that Jones DEFINITELY did 'roids, but his colossal dropoff in performance once MLB got SERIOUS about testing is notable. [READ: They didn't give players 2 weeks to "get clean" before testing them, and they didn't stop the testing program for huge parts of the season.]

khan
03-23-2010, 03:54 PM
No. The tests were random and done throughout the year. There were a whole bunch of positive tests and in 2005 the suspension was 50 games.

Here's a list:

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/list-mlb-positive-tests.htm


True. But according to Sen. Mitchell, the players were given 2 week's notice before a test, and the testing was suspended for huge parts of seasons before Congress embarrassed MLB and MLBPA into getting serious about testing. The current system of testing is the result of Congressional scrutiny of MLB.

thedudeabides
03-23-2010, 03:56 PM
True. But according to Sen. Mitchell, the players were given 2 week's notice before a test, and the testing was suspended for huge parts of seasons before Congress embarrassed MLB and MLBPA into getting serious about testing. The current system of testing is the result of Congressional scrutiny of MLB.

Which was refuted by MLB and the players union. Also, two weeks is not enough time to clean your system out.

I know you're trying hard to convinct Andruw Jones of steroid use, but none of this explains why his best seasons were 2005 and 2006. He didn't become a major power hitter until after testing.

You're grasping at straws here.

khan
03-23-2010, 04:00 PM
He had knee problems and a subsequent surgery, along with other lower body injuries. Not an excuse not to take the weight off eventually, as clearly some of his problem was work ethic and drive.

Some people are optomistic because he clearly looks like he is in better condition than he has been for about 5 years. He also has looked good in CF, is stealing bases, and looks like he has made some solid adjustments to his swing.

It doesn't mean he'll amount to anything this season, but those are reasons for optimism.
So we're getting amped up about a guy who's been fat, lazy, and stupid for 5 years? Is that it? What's to keep his lazy ass from getting fat [again] off Churros at the Cell this year?

And we're calling this team "A nice mix of talent" based on Spring Freakin' Training?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, until REAL baseball is played, and we can either be pleasantly surprised, or unpleasantly disappointed. I have my reasons to expect disappointment.

thedudeabides
03-23-2010, 04:06 PM
So we're getting amped up about a guy who's been fat, lazy, and stupid for 5 years? Is that it? What's to keep his lazy ass from getting fat [again] off Churros at the Cell this year?

And we're calling this team "A nice mix of talent" based on Spring Freakin' Training?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, until REAL baseball is played, and we can either be pleasantly surprised, or unpleasantly disappointed. I have my reasons to expect disappointment.

:scratch:

I'm not sure where I said any of that.

You are all over the map right now. Is Andruw Jones fat, lazy, and stupid? Or is he a cheater?

khan
03-23-2010, 04:07 PM
Which was refuted by MLB and the players union. Also, two weeks is not enough time to clean your system out.
I don't know about you, but I trust Sen. Mitchell moreso than MLB/MLBPA. One is known for his integrity, while the others have tried to hide or ignore the problem.

With masking, a positive test can be made to look like a negative, even with a few hours' time. [Ask Manny about this.]

I know you're trying hard to convinct Andruw Jones of steroid use, but none of this explains why his best seasons were 2005 and 2006. He didn't become a major power hitter until after testing.
Actually, he was hitting > 30 HR before testing, and was hitting for respectable power during the "weak-sauce" testing years of 2003 and 2004.

I would actually feel BETTER if he was a steroid user, because THEN, his dropoff in performance is explainable/believable.

I can't imagine a player with any sort of personal pride could be stupid, fat, and lazy for 5 years, THEN magically "turn it on" at 32 years old, all to miraculously save our White SOX. People simply don't change that much.

At the same time, I'd feel better about Jones being a White SOX if we were talking about his last good season being 2007 or 2008, not 4 or 5 years ago.

asindc
03-23-2010, 04:07 PM
So we're getting amped up about a guy who's been fat, lazy, and stupid for 5 years? Is that it? What's to keep his lazy ass from getting fat [again] off Churros at the Cell this year?

And we're calling this team "A nice mix of talent" based on Spring Freakin' Training?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, until REAL baseball is played, and we can either be pleasantly surprised, or unpleasantly disappointed. I have my reasons to expect disappointment.

Well, I suppose paying Damon $9 million to play baseball this year might have mitigated some people's expectation for disappointment, but then they might have found other reasons to expect such. By the way, I would not call being encouraged being "amped up." We will all see what this means. What I do know is that if he had reported in the same fat, out-of-shape condition this ST that he had the past three years, there would be no signs of optimism as far as I'm concerned.

spawn
03-23-2010, 04:08 PM
:scratch:

I'm not sure where I said any of that.

You didn't. I think someone is just upset that we're not wishing Jones fails. As a Sox fan, I'm not sure what we're going to get from him. But from what I've seen so far during ST, it doesn't look like he's going to be a total failure, and I hope he exceeds expectations, as that is what would be best for the Sox.

khan
03-23-2010, 04:10 PM
You are all over the map right now. Is Andruw Jones fat, lazy, and stupid? Or is he a cheater?
I'm suggesting that he might have been a cheater.

OTHERS [Asindc, you, among others] in this thread are suggesting that he simply was lazy for 5 years. I don't happen to believe this theory.

In either case, I don't think it projects favorably for Jones this year.

spawn
03-23-2010, 04:12 PM
OTHERS [Asindc, you, among others] in this thread are suggesting that he simply was lazy for 5 years. I don't happen to believe this theory.

5 years? Try 2. His average suffered in '07, but he still managed to hit 26 homers and drive in 94 runs. He was hurt most of '08 and struggled last season. :shrug:

thedudeabides
03-23-2010, 04:13 PM
I'm suggesting that he might have been a cheater.

OTHERS [Asindc, you, among others] in this thread are suggesting that he simply was lazy for 5 years. I don't happen to believe this theory.

In either case, I don't think it projects favorably for Jones this year.

That's fine. My expectations for him once they signed him were zero. They are still not high, as I think he has to prove he can stay healthy and motivated, but I'm encouraged by what I've seen in spring. That's all I have to go on. IT has nothing to do with his stats. His swing and approach look a lot different.

asindc
03-23-2010, 04:15 PM
I'm suggesting that he might have been a cheater.

OTHERS [Asindc, you, among others] in this thread are suggesting that he simply was lazy for 5 years. I don't happen to believe this theory.

In either case, I don't think it projects favorably for Jones this year.

Really? No wonder you are still making certain points in this discussion. You are debating points no one has even made.

khan
03-23-2010, 04:17 PM
Well, I suppose paying Damon $9 million to play baseball this year might have mitigated some people's expectation for disappointment, but then they might have found other reasons to expect such.
I would have been happy with a player that has performed well offensively in a more recent season than 2006. At least, for the DH position.

I'm OK with taking a chance on a player, IF he's had some signs of success or promise thereof in recent seasons. And no, I wouldn't consider 2006 a recent season anymore.

By the way, I would not call being encouraged being "amped up." We will all see what this means. What I do know is that if he had reported in the same fat, out-of-shape condition this ST that he had the past three years, there would be no signs of optimism as far as I'm concerned.
I think Andruw has earned more scrutiny than optimism, with his recently-craptacular play. That some in this thread are calling any group of players that includes Jones/Kotsay a "nice mix of talent" is silly.

Moreover, I'd hate to rely on a player whose "only" barrier to success is him supposedly being "merely" fat/lazy/stupid/having a lack of work ethic/having a lack of drive.

Carolina Kenny
03-23-2010, 04:18 PM
Is it OK to call him Andy Jones?

Just wondering.

TheVulture
03-23-2010, 04:18 PM
The bigger point here is this:

Let's ASSUME for a minute that he is IN FACT in "the best shape in years."

IF this is in fact the case, why wouldn't he have taken measures earlier to be "in shape" when the Rangers signed him? Is he lazy? Stupid? Weak? Do they not have gyms in Curacao? What is it?

I'd be more encouraged about Jones if the SOX were the first club to take a flier on him, after he'd stolen $36.2M without a gun from the Dodgers.

Suffice it to say that Jones isn't the first, and he won't be the last player to state that he's "in the best shape in years." The fact that he WAS in poor shape [AT BEST] speaks ill about his dedication to his body.

At WORST, it suggests that he might have stopped doing something that made him become craptacular at baseball at merely 30 years of age.

Perhaps at 29 or 30 he didn't adjust to the difference in age. What he did at 23 or 25 to stay in shape was no longer enough and maybe he was too stupid to know he had to change his approach to stay at his top condition. Being such a gifted athlete, he wasn't prepared for the idea that he'd need to put up extra effort and assumed his natural ability would continue to carry him. I agree it may "speak ill about his dedication to his body," but maybe he learned his lesson before it's too late. Plenty of people go through that. It's called maturation.

However, being in top shape now seems to indicate he at least has learned his lesson. Who cares what it said about him when he was out of shape with the Rangers and making a boatload with the Dodgers? People change and all I care about is what he does as a Sox.

Young people almost always seem to take the benefits of their youth for granted and have to make an adjustment sometime around 30 when it finally dawns on them they can't eat or drink or party however they want and bounce back as if it is nothing. You can do that at 21 - you have to figure it out later.

khan
03-23-2010, 04:23 PM
5 years? Try 2. His average suffered in '07, but he still managed to hit 26 homers and drive in 94 runs. He was hurt most of '08 and struggled last season. :shrug:

So we should feel better because he's [supposedly] been fat/stupid/lazy/had a lack of drive for "only" 2 years according to you? According to Asindc, for about "3 years?"

But then, his lack of BA would be managable if he had a history of a high OBP, which he doesn't.

spawn
03-23-2010, 04:27 PM
So we should feel better because he's [supposedly] been fat/stupid/lazy/had a lack of drive for "only" 2 years according to you? According to Asindc, for about "3 years?"

But then, his lack of BA would be managable if he had a history of a high OBP, which he doesn't.
You ca feel however you want to. As for me, I'm going to hope he rediscovers himself here. the last thing I want is for him to fail. but don't let me stop you from continuing your rant by accusing him of being a roider. You're well within your right I guess. :shrug:

khan
03-23-2010, 04:30 PM
Perhaps at 29 or 30 he didn't adjust to the difference in age. What he did at 23 or 25 to stay in shape was no longer enough and maybe he was too stupid to know he had to change his approach to stay at his top condition. Being such a gifted athlete, he wasn't prepared for the idea that he'd need to put up extra effort and assumed his natural ability would continue to carry him. I agree it may "speak ill about his dedication to his body," but maybe he learned his lesson before it's too late. Plenty of people go through that. It's called maturation.

I think this is would be a fair point, but it's not like he doesn't have access to the best and brightest minds in medicine, fitness, training, and nutrition, right?

I'd also feel better about it if this was his first stop after robbing the First Bank of Dodgertown. Why didn't he "mature" when he was a Ranger? What prevented him from making the effort?

The lack of a strong explaination of this is why I tend to disbelieve the "Andruw Was Just Out Of Shape" Theory to excuse his poor performance for however many years you believe he sucked at baseball. This is also [one reason] why many believe Jones will continue to suck at baseball in this season as well.

WisSoxFan
03-23-2010, 05:21 PM
Maybe I'm nuts, but couldn't it be that he likes money. He wouldn't be the first guy to go in the tank after getting a huge contract and then decide he would like one more nice contract and work his way back into shape in hopes of putting up a good/great/monster year and then getting paid accordingly.

BringHomeDaBacon
03-23-2010, 05:22 PM
Last year Jones hit 17 HR in only 331 plate appearances which is 33 projected out to 162 games. Although his batting average was .214 his BABIP was only .221 so he couldn't have been more "unlucky". Considering his AVG was so low, his OBP of .323 was actually pretty darn solid - his walks projected out to 88 over a full season. Based on the power and patience he displayed last year, the likely rise in batting average and the solid spring this year, there's plenty of reason to be optimistic.

munchman33
03-23-2010, 05:39 PM
Last year Jones hit 17 HR in only 331 plate appearances which is 33 projected out to 162 games. Although his batting average was .214 his BABIP was only .221 so he couldn't have been more "unlucky". Considering his AVG was so low, his OBP of .323 was actually pretty darn solid - his walks projected out to 88 over a full season. Based on the power and patience he displayed last year, the likely rise in batting average and the solid spring this year, there's plenty of reason to be optimistic.

A guys numbers in platoon and garbage time should not be taken as indicative of how he would perform over the course of a season, especially in regards to walks. And even if it were, .214 with 33 homers would be terrible. 33 homers don't mean much when you only hit 33 homers and nothing else. Also, it wouldn't mean 33 homers. This lineup isn't turning over enough to get him 650+ official at bats. Keep dreaming.

And welcome to WSI!

Tragg
03-23-2010, 07:57 PM
Why are people so worried about the "DH"? You obviously have confidence in Andruw Jones based on this post, so what is the difference in your mind if he is the DH and Pierre is OF or vice versa?
Because DH is a 100% offensive position,and players who can hit and do nothing else are cheaper than players who can hit and field;
thus if your lineup contians anything less than a well above average hitter at DH on any sort of regular basis, you're dealing yourself a short hand. (ahem Guillen's plans for Kotsay, Visquel).

As for Jones, how are his knees?

soltrain21
03-23-2010, 07:58 PM
I'm really pissed nobody referenced my Augie Ojeda shoutout.

Frater Perdurabo
03-23-2010, 09:26 PM
Before the cynics piss their pants again, consider this WORST CASE SCENARIO:

Jones does an EPIC FAIL and is benched May 15. The Sox cut him and have only wasted $500,000, meaning that there is still plenty of time and money to make a mid-season trade for a hitter.

OK, now you may resume your regularly scheduled cliff jumping. :rolleyes:

DonnieDarko
03-23-2010, 09:54 PM
Before the cynics piss their pants again, consider this WORST CASE SCENARIO:

Jones does an EPIC FAIL and is benched May 15. The Sox cut him and have only wasted $500,000, meaning that there is still plenty of time and money to make a mid-season trade for a hitter.

OK, now you may resume your regularly scheduled cliff jumping. :rolleyes:


THIS +1 so much. :D:

Red Barchetta
03-23-2010, 10:02 PM
This was exactly what I thought was Ozzie's vision for the DH position and why he DIDN'T want Thome back. He wants to use the DH to give guys a rest but still keep their bat in the line-up. With Thome at DH, he was going to play on most every day, so if any other player needed a rest, they had the entire day off. With this rotating DH, he can give those guys a little rest and let them just hit!

I love this team at this point. Yeah, I'd like to have all-stars at each position, but you take what you've got... and you support them!

I agree. Plus with interleague play, it gives you the option of going with the hot bat!

Jim Shorts
03-24-2010, 12:17 AM
That's the whole rotating DH thing Ozzie wants. All of them play the field and all of them DH and Jones rotates between DH/RF/CF depending on who is off. Quentin does RF/LF/DH. Pierre does LF/DH. Rios Does RF/CF/DH. That way they all keep their legs fresher and play almost every day.

Oh and having too much talent is never a bad thing...


+1.


I'm of the opinion that Ozzie has a pretty good idea of what he's doing here, even considering injuries and the like. He's got options across the board.

Why hate that? Especially without seeing it at all...

munchman33
03-24-2010, 09:34 AM
Before the cynics piss their pants again, consider this WORST CASE SCENARIO:

Jones does an EPIC FAIL and is benched May 15. The Sox cut him and have only wasted $500,000, meaning that there is still plenty of time and money to make a mid-season trade for a hitter.

OK, now you may resume your regularly scheduled cliff jumping. :rolleyes:

Oh, I remember this game! This is the game where we lose an incredibly easy division back in April, when games count just as much, because Kenny didn't get the job done in the offseason!

What do I win? Oh...another incredibly miserable season on the south side. Great.

DonnieDarko
03-24-2010, 09:39 AM
Yeesh, so many dark clouds in he--

Oh wait. WSI. Yeah, okay, this all makes sense now.

Craig Grebeck
03-24-2010, 09:45 AM
I'm encouraged by what Jones is doing. That being said, Rios is our CF. He should be our CF opening day, in the postseason, etc. Do not **** around and put Jones there -- that's not going to cut it defensively, and I doubt Rios is down with having his position jerked around.

I'm sure Quentin will miss some time, and Pierre will need a guy to step in from time to time. Jones will be utilized out there.

Still a bunch of meaningless at-bats, though.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 11:47 AM
Yeesh, so many dark clouds in he--

Oh wait. WSI. Yeah, okay, this all makes sense now.

The common sense most likely outcome makes someone a dark cloud now.

People need more perspective. There's a difference between wanting something to come true and realizing how unlikely something is. I want Andrew Jones to hit .280 with 40 bombs. He's very likely to hit .220 with 20 bombs.

beasly213
03-24-2010, 11:53 AM
The common sense most likely outcome makes someone a dark cloud now.

People need more perspective. There's a difference between wanting something to come true and realizing how unlikely something is. I want Andrew Jones to hit .280 with 40 bombs. He's very likely to hit .220 with 20 bombs.


Sounds like we have ourselved Juan Uribe.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 12:50 PM
Sounds like we have ourselved Juan Uribe.

And that would be great if Andruw was a stud defender at a key defensive position. He's our DH, and our lineup has other holes and question marks to boot.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 01:10 PM
Before the cynics piss their pants again, consider this WORST CASE SCENARIO:

Jones does an EPIC FAIL and is benched May 15. The Sox cut him and have only wasted $500,000, meaning that there is still plenty of time and money to make a mid-season trade for a hitter.

OK, now you may resume your regularly scheduled cliff jumping. :rolleyes:

No, that's a great scenario. The worst case scenario is Jones gets off to another hot start like he did last year, looks like he can still swing the bat, and then DISAPPEARS in the 2nd half (like he did last year) while the Sox fade out of contention.

I'd be happy as **** if he just bombed so bad right away he made Ozzie rethink his boner No DH plan.

The fewer AB Jones takes for this team, the better they'll be.

russ99
03-24-2010, 02:06 PM
The common sense most likely outcome makes someone a dark cloud now.

People need more perspective. There's a difference between wanting something to come true and realizing how unlikely something is. I want Andrew Jones to hit .280 with 40 bombs. He's very likely to hit .220 with 20 bombs.

And he could hit .255 with 30 bombs. We should see which Andruw we have before jumping off the cliff...

I know there are guys who have had great springs then have fallen off during the season (a certain CF comes to mind), but seeing how Andruw is in much better shape and the way he's seeing/hitting the ball leads me to believe we'll see him closer to the top than the bottom, barring injury.

russ99
03-24-2010, 02:11 PM
No, that's a great scenario. The worst case scenario is Jones gets off to another hot start like he did last year, looks like he can still swing the bat, and then DISAPPEARS in the 2nd half (like he did last year) while the Sox fade out of contention.

I'd be happy as **** if he just bombed so bad right away he made Ozzie rethink his boner No DH plan.

The fewer AB Jones takes for this team, the better they'll be.

We had that exact same scenario last season with Dye, but he was being paid $7M and not the $500K we're on the hook for Jones.

And I didn't hear anyone looking for fewer AB's for Dye last spring...

Assuming some all-star slugger will magically appear in the place of Jones is wishful thinking.

I'm going to cheer for the team we have. You know - the one with top-5 rotation and adequate offense that's younger and more athletic.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 02:26 PM
And I didn't hear anyone looking for fewer AB's for Dye last spring...

:rolleyes:

Dye's 2006-2008 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dyeje01.shtml#2006-2008-sum:batting_standard)

Jones' 2007-2009 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesan01.shtml#2007-2009-sum:batting_standard)

There's not even a comparison between the two.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 02:30 PM
Assuming some all-star slugger will magically appear in the place of Jones is wishful thinking.

Well the prevailing thinking around these parts seems to be that KW will patch holes if they need to be patched. The best thing Andruw can do for is us have a great season. The next best thing he can do is bomb out by April and force KW's hand, unless, of course, the same old cheap-o White Sox B.S. that makes us go into a season with Andruw Jones as DH rears its head, in which case, we're screwed either way.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 03:16 PM
And he could hit .255 with 30 bombs. We should see which Andruw we have before jumping off the cliff...


He could {arbitrary prediction with no basis in reality}, don't jump off a cliff!

Which Andruw we have? What does that even mean? He's been the same Andruw Jones for half a decade now. Should we expect 2000 Andruw Jones all of a sudden?

He could .014/.020/.044 - but you don't hear me unrealistically saying that. Just because something can happen doesn't mean it's in the realm of what should be expected. Expecting above .250 with 30+ homers is not a realistic expectation, only an outlying possibility.

sullythered
03-24-2010, 03:23 PM
My prediction: Kotsay ends up playing more than Jones; hits .280

munchman33
03-24-2010, 03:27 PM
My prediction: Kotsay ends up playing more than Jones; hits .280

While I don't think he will, Kotsay is significantly more likely to be a productive player than Jones.

jabrch
03-24-2010, 03:38 PM
I'd be happy as **** if he just bombed so bad right away he made Ozzie rethink his boner No DH plan.

The fewer AB Jones takes for this team, the better they'll be.

At this point, I am convinced this is just schtick...You can't be serious.

TheVulture
03-24-2010, 03:39 PM
Oh, I remember this game! This is the game where we lose an incredibly easy division back in April, when games count just as much, because Kenny didn't get the job done in the offseason!

What do I win? Oh...another incredibly miserable season on the south side. Great.

Lack of production from a single player for a month does not equate to the Sox losing the division in April.

In April of 2005, Jermaine Dye put up .175/.205/.313.
What was the Sox' record in April again?

doublem23
03-24-2010, 03:41 PM
At this point, I am convinced this is just schtick...You can't be serious.

I'd much rather Andruw bomb out in April and force KW's hand to actually get us a bat rather than he bomb out in the 2nd half and we get to watch the Sox fade out of the division race.

Nothing scares me more than Jones getting off to a hot start, as he did last year, and then vanishing once the 2nd half of the season rolls around. The faster Ozzie and KW realize what a mistake they've made, the better we'll all be. Ozzie is already stubborn enough, the last thing he needs are reasons to keep penciling Jones in.

voodoochile
03-24-2010, 03:47 PM
He could {arbitrary prediction with no basis in reality}, don't jump off a cliff!

Which Andruw we have? What does that even mean? He's been the same Andruw Jones for half a decade now. Should we expect 2000 Andruw Jones all of a sudden?

He could .014/.020/.044 - but you don't hear me unrealistically saying that. Just because something can happen doesn't mean it's in the realm of what should be expected. Expecting above .250 with 30+ homers is not a realistic expectation, only an outlying possibility.

What? he had monster years in 2005 and 2006. Had a solid power year but down numbers in 2007. Had a horrible 2008 and had half a good season in 2009 before getting injured.

Even if you say all of the most recent three years have no redeeming qualities (and I'll argue that point) since when is 3 years half a decade? :scratch:

Dibbs
03-24-2010, 03:51 PM
What? he had monster years in 2005 and 2006. Had a solid power year but down numbers in 2007. Had a horrible 2008 and had half a good season in 2009 before getting injured.

Even if you say all of the most recent three years have no redeeming qualities (and I'll argue that point) since when is 3 years half a decade? :scratch:

Down year is 2007 with solid power numbers? .222 was his batting average with a .724 OPS. That is not solid in any way.

.222

He hasn't hit higher than .263 since 2003.

spawn
03-24-2010, 03:59 PM
Down year is 2007 with solid power numbers? .222 was his batting average with a .724 OPS. That is not solid in any way.

He had 26 homers and drove in 94 runs. I would say those are pretty good power numbers.

Nellie_Fox
03-24-2010, 04:03 PM
I'd much rather Andruw bomb out in April and force KW's hand to actually get us a bat...Who? What "bat" is going to be available that you have in mind?

Craig Grebeck
03-24-2010, 04:04 PM
He had 26 homers and drove in 94 runs. I would say those are pretty good power numbers.
I think that's a stretch, given what he was coming off of. His isoP numbers fell precipitously in that timeframe, and characterizing that season as good in any way is nuts.

spawn
03-24-2010, 04:05 PM
I think that's a stretch, given what he was coming off of. His isoP numbers fell precipitously in that timeframe, and characterizing that season as good in any way is nuts.
Where did I say he had a good season? :scratch:

voodoochile
03-24-2010, 04:05 PM
Down year is 2007 with solid power numbers? .222 was his batting average with a .724 OPS. That is not solid in any way.

.222

He hasn't hit higher than .263 since 2003.

He had 55 XBH and drove in 94 that year. The problem was that he only had 72 singles.

I don't really give a crap what his batting average is. I'd love to see him hit 25 HR and add on 25 doubles and take some walks. Anything over that would be gravy. I think he'll reach those numbers easily if he gets a full season of at bats...

Craig Grebeck
03-24-2010, 04:06 PM
Where did I say he had a good season? :scratch:
I think you should re-read my post. Good "in any way" was what I posted.

I don't really give a crap what his batting average is. I'd love to see him hit 25 HR and add on 25 doubles and take some walks. Anything over that would be gravy. I think he'll reach those numbers easily if he gets a full season of at bats...
Those are horrific expectations.

voodoochile
03-24-2010, 04:07 PM
I think you should re-read my post. Good "in any way" was what I posted.


Those are horrific expectations.

What...

Ever...:rolleyes:

Craig Grebeck
03-24-2010, 04:07 PM
What...

Ever...:rolleyes:
Well said. Seriously. If he replicated 2007 you would be pleased?

spawn
03-24-2010, 04:09 PM
I think you should re-read my post. Good "in any way" was what I posted.


Those are horrific expectations.
If you say so. :shrug:

Craig Grebeck
03-24-2010, 04:11 PM
If you say so. :shrug:
Your inability/unwillingness to even respond to what I'm saying is noted.

spawn
03-24-2010, 04:13 PM
Your inability/unwillingness to even respond to what I'm saying is noted.
Good.

voodoochile
03-24-2010, 04:15 PM
Well said. Seriously. If he replicated 2007 you would be pleased?

I'd prefer he did better, but I'd accept it. I don't think it will be marginally worse than what we would expect from Jim Thome this coming season in terms of power production and that's the one thing I'd like to see.

spawn
03-24-2010, 04:16 PM
What...

Ever...:rolleyes:
Thank you. :thumbsup:

Craig Grebeck
03-24-2010, 04:17 PM
I'd prefer he did better, but I'd accept it. I don't think it will be marginally worse than what we would expect from Jim Thome this coming season in terms of power production and that's the one thing I'd like to see.
I guess I'd rather have the guy who is considerably better at not recording an out.

jabrch
03-24-2010, 04:19 PM
I'd much rather Andruw bomb out in April and force KW's hand to actually get us a bat rather than he bomb out in the 2nd half and we get to watch the Sox fade out of the division race.

Nothing scares me more than Jones getting off to a hot start, as he did last year, and then vanishing once the 2nd half of the season rolls around. The faster Ozzie and KW realize what a mistake they've made, the better we'll all be. Ozzie is already stubborn enough, the last thing he needs are reasons to keep penciling Jones in.


Shtick Dubs...I got it. There's no way you really wish he bombs out early rather than succeeds early and flames out later. There's no way. I can't see it. Call me stubborn, but I believe you are playing us for some reason. I have no idea why - but I don't believe you truly mean this.

spawn
03-24-2010, 04:19 PM
I'd prefer he did better, but I'd accept it. I don't think it will be marginally worse than what we would expect from Jim Thome this coming season in terms of power production and that's the one thing I'd like to see.
I think if he hit 26 dingers and drove in 94, a lot of people here would be ecstatic. I'd like to see a higher average and OBP, but I'd be happy with those numbers. As you said, that would be about what I think Thome would've given us, minus the walks of course.

voodoochile
03-24-2010, 04:21 PM
I guess I'd rather have the guy who is considerably better at not recording an out.

Sure and hopefully by being in shape and hopefully staying healthy he can post something like his slash line from last year but over the whole season. That should be just fine. And yes, I'm aware of the difference in numbers between his first and second half last year, so don't bother pointing it out.

My point is that if we can get a good amount of power from Jones, that's all the team really needs, IMO. Anything else is gravy. If he manages to have a rebound season and post an OPS over .800 this team should stroll into the playoffs and be able to play head to head with the Yankees and Red Sox no problem.

I just don't see it as guarantee he'll fail completely.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 04:29 PM
Lack of production from a single player for a month does not equate to the Sox losing the division in April.

In April of 2005, Jermaine Dye put up .175/.205/.313.
What was the Sox' record in April again?

That team could afford the sink hole, as it did everything really well.

What? he had monster years in 2005 and 2006. Had a solid power year but down numbers in 2007. Had a horrible 2008 and had half a good season in 2009 before getting injured.

Even if you say all of the most recent three years have no redeeming qualities (and I'll argue that point) since when is 3 years half a decade? :scratch:


Down year is 2007 with solid power numbers? .222 was his batting average with a .724 OPS. That is not solid in any way.

.222

He hasn't hit higher than .263 since 2003.

Vodooo I'm running on the same logic as Dibbs. If you think he was good in those years, there probably isn't a lot I can do to convince you otherwise.

Well said. Seriously. If he replicated 2007 you would be pleased?

That's the really scary thought. I think a lot of people here see that as enough. There's a lot of below average bats in this lineup, DH is simply the most below average (and was the easiest for us to fix this offseason).

munchman33
03-24-2010, 04:31 PM
Shtick Dubs...I got it. There's no way you really wish he bombs out early rather than succeeds early and flames out later. There's no way. I can't see it. Call me stubborn, but I believe you are playing us for some reason. I have no idea why - but I don't believe you truly mean this.

I hope he retires before spring training ends. Is that any better?

Nellie_Fox
03-24-2010, 04:35 PM
That's the really scary thought. I think a lot of people here see that as enough.Why is that "scary?" What any of us thinks about anything will have no impact whatsoever on how the team performs. So, don't let what other posters think about Jones bother you. It only matters what Sox management thinks, and they don't post on here.

dickallen15
03-24-2010, 04:48 PM
Andruw Jones is having a good spring. You know which White Sox OF had a better spring in 2009? DeWayne Wise.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 04:48 PM
Why is that "scary?" What any of us thinks about anything will have no impact whatsoever on how the team performs. So, don't let what other posters think about Jones bother you. It only matters what Sox management thinks, and they don't post on here.

Alright, it's "scary" that management is banking our season on out of norm production at 3B, LF, CF...healthy production from RF...extended youth from 1B and C...and resurrection to another time production at DH. Because more than half of that has to happen for us to compete. Probably a lot more.

It simply only bothers me that fellow White Sox fans find this acceptable. I prefer winning.

Nellie_Fox
03-24-2010, 04:52 PM
It simply only bothers me that fellow White Sox fans find this acceptable. I prefer winning.Again, what others find acceptable is certainly open to debate (a major purpose of a discussion board) but even if you change all of their minds, it won't change a thing about the team. So, saying it's "scary" or that it "bothers" you is just silly.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 05:02 PM
Again, what others find acceptable is certainly open to debate (a major purpose of a discussion board) but even if you change all of their minds, it won't change a thing about the team. So, saying it's "scary" or that it "bothers" you is just silly.

Fans can have an affect on the roster. I haven't bought a single ticket for this year. The team looks incomplete and I'm holding them accountable. I told my rep as much. Others should do so to, or at least threaten. This is the worst team Kenny's put together in some time. It's five starters and pray.

spawn
03-24-2010, 05:09 PM
Fans can have an affect on the roster. I haven't bought a single ticket for this year. The team looks incomplete and I'm holding them accountable. I told my rep as much. Others should do so to, or at least threaten. This is the worst team Kenny's put together in some time. It's five starters and pray.
This team is light years better than the one that took the field last season.

goon
03-24-2010, 05:19 PM
Alright, it's "scary" that management is banking our season on out of norm production at 3B, LF, CF...healthy production from RF...extended youth from 1B and C...and resurrection to another time production at DH. Because more than half of that has to happen for us to compete. Probably a lot more..

The White Sox aren't banking on offense, clearly, anyone can see that. With a rotation of Jake Peavy, Mark Buehrle, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, a bullpen consisting of Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, JJ Putz, Tony Pena and a considerably better outfield defense with Dye out of the picture, the Sox aren't relying on offense to carry this team.

An offense consisting of players like Quentin, Beckham, Konerko, Rios, Pierzynski, and Ramierz should be able to score more than enough runs for that pitching staff. The one thing that is nice about this year is the Sox have added versatility.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 05:28 PM
The White Sox aren't banking on offense, clearly, anyone can see that. With a rotation of Jake Peavy, Mark Buehrle, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, a bullpen consisting of Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, JJ Putz, Tony Pena and a considerably better outfield defense with Dye out of the picture, the Sox aren't relying on offense to carry this team.

An offense consisting of players like Quentin, Beckham, Konerko, Rios, Pierzynski, and Ramierz should be able to score more than enough runs for that pitching staff. The one thing that is nice about this year is the Sox have added versatility.

Most people outside this site do not share your optimisim about the pen or those offensive pieces.

goon
03-24-2010, 05:35 PM
Most people outside this site do not share your optimisim about the pen or those offensive pieces.

It's not optimism. You just like to whine.

Corlose 15
03-24-2010, 05:42 PM
That team could afford the sink hole, as it did everything really well.

Vodooo I'm running on the same logic as Dibbs. If you think he was good in those years, there probably isn't a lot I can do to convince you otherwise.



That's the really scary thought. I think a lot of people here see that as enough. There's a lot of below average bats in this lineup, DH is simply the most below average (and was the easiest for us to fix this offseason).

It's irrelevant to Voodoo's original reply whether or not you think he was any good since 2007 because, as he stated, those are three years not "half a decade".

Corlose 15
03-24-2010, 05:48 PM
Alright, it's "scary" that management is banking our season on out of norm production at 3B, LF, CF...healthy production from RF...extended youth from 1B and C...and resurrection to another time production at DH. Because more than half of that has to happen for us to compete. Probably a lot more.

It simply only bothers me that fellow White Sox fans find this acceptable. I prefer winning.

Wouldn't the Sox actually be banking on normative production from CF since Rios historically is a much better hitter than he was last year?

I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this since you're entrenched in your point of view anyways.

delben91
03-24-2010, 06:50 PM
Fans can have an affect on the roster. I haven't bought a single ticket for this year. The team looks incomplete and I'm holding them accountable. I told my rep as much. Others should do so to, or at least threaten. This is the worst team Kenny's put together in some time. It's five starters and pray.

Are you saying it's the worst team on paper in some time, or you expect it to be the worst performing in some time? I ask, because I sure expect this team to be better than the low 70s win total we got in 2007. If you think this team is worse than the 2007 version...only good for wins in the 60s (90+ losses?!?!) then I really don't know where you're coming from.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 06:54 PM
Who? What "bat" is going to be available that you have in mind?

Pretty much anyone would be an upgrade.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 07:00 PM
It's not optimism. You just like to whine.

No, it's super optimism. There are plenty of reasons to not believe in this Sox team. ****, the biggest thing I can say in our defense is our division is a god damn joke.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 07:14 PM
It's irrelevant to Voodoo's original reply whether or not you think he was any good since 2007 because, as he stated, those are three years not "half a decade".




No, I'm saying even in those years prior he wasn't good. As was pointed out by someone else, he really hasn't had a good year in a lot longer. Just some decent years and some really terrible ones more recently.

mzh
03-24-2010, 07:15 PM
Fans can have an affect on the roster. I haven't bought a single ticket for this year. The team looks incomplete and I'm holding them accountable. I told my rep as much. Others should do so to, or at least threaten. This is the worst team Kenny's put together in some time. It's five starters and pray.
So Pierre/Rios is worse than Wise? Getz is better than Beckham? Floyd and Garcia are worse than Contreras and Colon?

Going back to 07, Rios is worse than Darin Erstad? Iguchi is better than Beckham? Uribe is better than Alexei? Pablo Ozuna/Luis Terrerro are worse than Pierre?

No. We have a lot more overall talent on our opening day roster than we have had since 05/06.

It's absolutely impossible to make assumptions for this team until the season starts. Were hopes high after 07? How did that turn out. How did we feel going in to 06, and how did that turn out in the end? To assume the team is "incomplete" may be correct, but why say it now, when we have possibly the most complete, balanced team since 05? Why not pick on starting Wise, Colon, Contreras and Fields last year? As much as this team has its flaws, compared to the gaping holes we've started with the last 3-4 years I would be glad we at least have proven players at every position and trust Kenny and Ozzie.

Rdy2PlayBall
03-24-2010, 07:17 PM
I'm fine with him at DH. Afterall, he fits there better than Kotsay. I wouldn't be disappointed at all if he starts 100 games (playing well), and about 80 of those are DH and 20 are CF/RF. This way somewhere around 80 games can be a break for Quentin, Konerko, or whoever needs it at DH. You can mess with that number all you want, as long as Jones plays well, he could play 162 for all I care. :tongue:

munchman33
03-24-2010, 07:21 PM
Wouldn't the Sox actually be banking on normative production from CF since Rios historically is a much better hitter than he was last year?

I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this since you're entrenched in your point of view anyways.

Rios has a better chance of being productive, and I believe he will. But it's not close to a lock. There aren't many locks. Carlos has injury concerns. Rios was terrible last year. Pierre hasn't had a full season with a decent leadoff OBP in half a decade, and has never played in the American League. Teahen's never really developed, and while this might be the year, it probably isn't. Paulie and AJ are only getting older, and while they might not regress, the probably will regress. Heck, even Gordon is just going into his second season. He could just as easily suffer a sophmore slump than build on last year. With a lineup with THAT many question marks, how could throwing a guy like Andruw Jones into the DH slot seem like a good idea? It's the biggest question mark of all.

Are you saying it's the worst team on paper in some time, or you expect it to be the worst performing in some time? I ask, because I sure expect this team to be better than the low 70s win total we got in 2007. If you think this team is worse than the 2007 version...only good for wins in the 60s (90+ losses?!?!) then I really don't know where you're coming from.

I'm talking about the personnel. We've got below average guys at third, left, and dh. We've got mental problems at cf and ss. We've got really old guys at catcher and 1B. It's just the perfect storm for a 70 win team, if not for our pitching staff, which might will us close to 80 wins.

And while our defense is improved, we're still one of the worst defensive clubs in the league. I do like us up the middle though.

JohnTucker0814
03-24-2010, 07:31 PM
Rios has a better chance of being productive, and I believe he will. But it's not close to a lock. There aren't many locks. Carlos has injury concerns. Rios was terrible last year. Pierre hasn't had a full season with a decent leadoff OBP in half a decade, and has never played in the American League. Teahen's never really developed, and while this might be the year, it probably isn't. Paulie and AJ are only getting older, and while they might not regress, the probably will regress. Heck, even Gordon is just going into his second season. He could just as easily suffer a sophmore slump than build on last year. With a lineup with THAT many question marks, how could throwing a guy like Andruw Jones into the DH slot seem like a good idea? It's the biggest question mark of all.



I'm talking about the personnel. We've got below average guys at third, left, and dh. We've got mental problems at cf and ss. We've got really old guys at catcher and 1B. It's just the perfect storm for a 70 win team, if not for our pitching staff, which might will us close to 80 wins.

And while our defense is improved, we're still one of the worst defensive clubs in the league. I do like us up the middle though.

You're concerned about 3B, LF & DH mostly??? Not all teams can have all-stars at each position... hell even the Yankees look like they are going with Swisher & Gardner in the OF with NICK JOHNSON at DH! I bet he won't hit that many more homeruns than Pierre! :redneck

Boston has Marco Scutaro at SS, Adrian Beltre at 3B and an OLD GUY Ortiz at DH.

Minnesota has a guy that was benched in the playoffs at 2B Orlando Hudson, Brendan Harris or Nick Punto at 3B & a guy that is trying to ressurrect his career at SS in JJ Hardy!

What do we have that all 3 of those teams don't have... question marks in our starting rotation and bullpen!

Yankees - Sabathia, Burnett (injury risks), Pettitte, Vazquez, Hughes
Boston - Lester, Lackey, Beckett, Matsuzaka (injured already), Buccholz (not proven)
Twins - Slowey, Baker, Pavano, Blackburn, Liriano & NO Closer!

Every team has question marks at the beginning of the year and the team that has their question marks answered in a positive note end up winning.

Find me a team that doesn't have question marks or need players to step up from bad years??? Can you???

munchman33
03-24-2010, 07:36 PM
You're concerned about 3B, LF & DH mostly??? Not all teams can have all-stars at each position... hell even the Yankees look like they are going with Swisher & Gardner in the OF with NICK JOHNSON at DH! I bet he won't hit that many more homeruns than Pierre! :redneck

Boston has Marco Scutaro at SS, Adrian Beltre at 3B and an OLD GUY Ortiz at DH.

Minnesota has a guy that was benched in the playoffs at 2B Orlando Hudson, Brendan Harris or Nick Punto at 3B & a guy that is trying to ressurrect his career at SS in JJ Hardy!

What do we have that all 3 of those teams don't have... question marks in our starting rotation and bullpen!

Yankees - Sabathia, Burnett (injury risks), Pettitte, Vazquez, Hughes
Boston - Lester, Lackey, Beckett, Matsuzaka (injured already), Buccholz (not proven)
Twins - Slowey, Baker, Pavano, Blackburn, Liriano & NO Closer!

Every team has question marks at the beginning of the year and the team that has their question marks answered in a positive note end up winning.

Find me a team that doesn't have question marks or need players to step up from bad years??? Can you???

You are missing my point. Every single one of our everyday players is a question mark. Some more than others...some a lot more than others, yes. But there are plenty of locks in those other lineups that will assure decent production. We don't have Mauer/Morneau in our lineup. We don't have lineups close to NY or Bos...not sure what you're getting at there. I'd take that Boston trio over ours at their respective positions anyday.

Corlose 15
03-24-2010, 07:41 PM
No, I'm saying even in those years prior he wasn't good. As was pointed out by someone else, he really hasn't had a good year in a lot longer. Just some decent years and some really terrible ones more recently.

So his 2006 season (.262/.363/.531 with 41 HR and 129 RBIs playing 156 games in CF) was subpar?

munchman33
03-24-2010, 07:52 PM
So his 2006 season (.262/.363/.531 with 41 HR and 129 RBIs playing 156 games in CF) was subpar?

Yes, in the context that it was his first step in an obvious regression from the player he was prior to that point. Other than the power, he was significantly worse than he used to be. That trend continued from that point, and snowballed into production so subpar he shouldn't have been guaranteed a roster spot.

edit: also, I mistakenly thought that was his 2005 season, so I guess it's not half a decade after all.

editx2: but half a decade has a better ring to it!

jabrch
03-24-2010, 08:01 PM
So his 2006 season (.262/.363/.531 with 41 HR and 129 RBIs playing 156 games in CF) was subpar?


But if he had another 20 walks, he'd be ranked amongst the stars like Adam Dunn?

munchman33
03-24-2010, 08:11 PM
But if he had another 20 walks, he'd be ranked amongst the stars like Adam Dunn?

You really want to argue that 20 walks instead of outs isn't significant? Not to mention, 20 outs converted to walks doesn't give him a .400 obp.

voodoochile
03-24-2010, 09:13 PM
No, I'm saying even in those years prior he wasn't good. As was pointed out by someone else, he really hasn't had a good year in a lot longer. Just some decent years and some really terrible ones more recently.

Munch check the stats 2005-6 were monster years...

goon
03-24-2010, 09:17 PM
****, the biggest thing I can say in our defense is our division is a god damn joke.

Actually the biggest thing you can say in our defense is that we QUITE possibly have the best rotation in all of baseball.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 09:19 PM
Munch check the stats 2005-6 were monster years...

Yeah, I'm just wrong.

I still don't like him! :cool:

munchman33
03-24-2010, 09:20 PM
Actually the biggest thing you can say in our defense is that we QUITE possibly have the best rotation in all of baseball.

I think we do, 1-5. But you have to score runs to win ballgames. And our defense is still subpar.

goon
03-24-2010, 09:26 PM
I think we do, 1-5. But you have to score runs to win ballgames. And our defense is still subpar.

There is more than one way to win a ballgame.

1.Our defense is not even close to being subpar, that's absurd. Absolutely, no one will agree with you on that.
2.This offense is more than capable of scoring enough runs to win games WITH that pitching staff.

This team is going to be competitive.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 09:27 PM
Actually the biggest thing you can say in our defense is that we QUITE possibly have the best rotation in all of baseball.

True but that's only 1 phase of the game, offensively and defensively, we are questionable (at best). Luckily, you can win this division even if you're woefully inadequate at 67% of the game. If we were in the AL East, for example, we'd be a 4th place team tops.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 09:30 PM
There is more than one way to win a ballgame.

1.Our defense is not even close to being subpar, that's absurd. Absolutely, no one will agree with you on that.
2.This offense is more than capable of scoring enough runs to win games WITH that pitching staff.

This team is going to be competitive.

:?: x 2

goon
03-24-2010, 09:32 PM
If we were in the AL East, for example, we'd be a 4th place team tops.

The Sox don't play in the AL East, so who cares. Just get into the playoffs, with a great staff, that's all you need to win a championship.

Some of you are acting like we have the Blue Jays offense or something. The offense will be fine. This lineup can score runs all different kind of ways, it's way more versatile than anything this organization has fielded in years.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 09:33 PM
1.Our defense is not even close to being subpar, that's absurd. Absolutely, no one will agree with you on that.
2.This offense is more than capable of scoring enough runs to win games WITH that pitching staff.

1) You're basing this on what? The Sox defense was horrible last year and I'm not sure how we've substantially gotten better? Beckham is in a new position, Pierre is a hack, etc. Tops this team is average defensively.

2) That's not even remotely close to being carved in stone. Do you realize last year the Sox had the A.L.'s 2nd best team ERA? And they couldn't even break even!

goon
03-24-2010, 09:33 PM
:?: x 2

That means nothing to me.

goon
03-24-2010, 09:37 PM
1) You're basing this on what? The Sox defense was horrible last year and I'm not sure how we've substantially gotten better? Beckham is in a new position, Pierre is a hack, etc. Tops this team is average defensively.

Pierre is a hack in LF, yeah... what? How can you be a hack in LF? The outfield defense is totally 100% better than last year... what are you talking about? A full year of Rios in CF, Dye out of right replaced with Jones/Quentin, I have no idea what you are even talking about. Up the middle, this team is fine, as long as Ramirez makes the plays he has to, this defense will be more than adequate.

You guys are seriously freaking out about nothing.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 09:37 PM
The Sox don't play in the AL East, so who cares. Just get into the playoffs, with a great staff, that's all you need to win a championship.

Some of you are acting like we have the Blue Jays offense or something. The offense will be fine. This lineup can score runs all different kind of ways, it's way more versatile than anything this organization has fielded in years.

You say versatile, some of us say crappier. Which is extraordinary considering the Sox had one of the ****tiest offenses in baseball last season. Pardon me if I don't think adding a below average 3B, a washed up slugger, and lead-off guy who doesn't get on base that often don't elicit dreams of adding a couple hundred runs of output this season.

goon
03-24-2010, 09:39 PM
1) 2) That's not even remotely close to being carved in stone. Do you realize last year the Sox had the A.L.'s 2nd best team ERA? And they couldn't even break even!

Of course it isn't carved in stone, it's what I believe. Just like you panicking about how god awful this team is going to be, you really have no idea how it's going to pan out. You're just guessing. Deal with it.

As long as they stay healthy, this offense is good enough to get the Sox into the playoffs.

doublem23
03-24-2010, 09:43 PM
Of course it isn't carved in stone, it's what I believe. Just like you panicking about how god awful this team is going to be, you really have no idea how it's going to pan out. You're just guessing. Deal with it.

As long as they stay healthy, this offense is good enough to get the Sox into the playoffs.

:rolling:

That's just as much a guess as what I've got. Get real. There's nothing to suggest this offense is dramatically better than last year's team, when it was bad enough to not just keep the 2nd best pitching staff out of October, it couldn't even get the 2nd best pitching staff to .500.

:rolling:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:_uCR8R4NobPRrM:http://www.linfotec.com/images/sunshine.jpg http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:5WCpXywJSo0ruM:http://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/lollipops.jpg http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:KlpdOdUT9i1VXM:http://trinitychapelag.org/files/Missionettes/Rainbows.jpg

goon
03-24-2010, 09:47 PM
You say versatile, some of us say crappier. Which is extraordinary considering the Sox had one of the ****tiest offenses in baseball last season. Pardon me if I don't think adding a below average 3B, a washed up slugger, and lead-off guy who doesn't get on base that often don't elicit dreams of adding a couple hundred runs of output this season.

-And Carlos Quentin played how many games last year?
-Chris Getz is replaced with Mark Teahan, what's the difference?
-Juan Pierre's OBP last year was .365

I honestly believe they will be better than last year, enough to make them competetive. All they have to do is get into the playoffs, they don't have to be as good as the Yankees, Red Sox, whoever, just get into the playoffs. I think they have a good chance in this division.

goon
03-24-2010, 09:50 PM
That's just as much a guess as what I've got.

By that logic, then your opinions are just as asinine as mine.

Awesome work, great job.

sox1970
03-24-2010, 09:56 PM
-And Carlos Quentin played how many games last year?
-Chris Getz is replaced with Mark Teahen, what's the difference?
-Juan Pierre's OBP last year was .365

I honestly believe they will be better than last year, enough to make them competetive. All they have to do is get into the playoffs, they don't have to be as good as the Yankees, Red Sox, whoever, just get into the playoffs. I think they have a good chance in this division.

Fixed Teahen's name for you, but I agree with what you have to say. The homers will be down, but they should still hit 170. The doubles should be up. And the defense is better, despite what some people may think. It's cliche to say "if healthy", but if they stay healthy, I think this team scores 770 runs and the pitching will be a top four ERA in the league. That should get them in the playoffs.

The biggest issue I see with this team is I question whether they can stay healthy. There are a lot of players with histories. Herm is going to be busy this year.

masloan
03-24-2010, 09:57 PM
You say versatile, some of us say crappier. Which is extraordinary considering the Sox had one of the ****tiest offenses in baseball last season. Pardon me if I don't think adding a below average 3B, a washed up slugger, and lead-off guy who doesn't get on base that often don't elicit dreams of adding a couple hundred runs of output this season.

How about getting a healthy Carlos Quentin? You do realize that last year he only played 99 games, and his performance was much worse due to injury. It is reasonable to think that if he stays healthy he has a good chance to get closer to his 2008 numbers.

How about a full year of a star in the making Gordon Beckham? The Sox did not get a full year out of him last year, and he struggled at times. He could very easily take a nice step forward.

Last year Wise started 36 games and Brian Anderson started 50. That is 86 games started between the 2 of them. Also keep in mind that Jermaine Dye hit .179 with 7 HR after the all star break. Rios also performed way under his career norms after coming to the Sox.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Alex Rios (with performance close to his norm), a healthy Quentin and Pierre is TONS better than Wise/Anderson, a hurt TCQ, 1/2 of good jermaine, 1/2 of worst OF in the game jermaine, and Pods.

Josh Fields also started 57 games for the Sox. 47 of them at 3B. Teahen might not be great, but I would take him any day of the week over Josh Fields who hit .222 with the Sox last year. And I do not think Getz is much of an upgrade over Teahen.

So while losing Thome hurt, and he had some huge hits for the sox...he was not great last year. Thome is what he is now. HE will get on base and he will hit home runs. But his base running hurt the sox, and he only hit .209 against lefties.

Who knows how the season will play out. But your contention that there is no reason to think the Sox offense will improve is just ridiculous.

goon
03-24-2010, 09:59 PM
There's nothing to suggest this offense is dramatically better than last year's team, when it was bad enough to not just keep the 2nd best pitching staff out of October, it couldn't even get the 2nd best pitching staff to .500.


That's the thing though, they don't have to be dramatically better. The combination of a better offense and better defense, that's all it takes to compete. Think about how many runs having Alex Rios and RF who has fresh legs in our OF will save this team.

You're acting like the Sox lost 95 games last year, they were under .500 by 4 games! It might only take 85 games to win this division, that's 6 more than they won last year.

How has this team gotten so much worse?

goon
03-24-2010, 10:03 PM
It's cliche to say "if healthy", but if they stay healthy, I think this team scores 770 runs and the pitching will be a top four ERA in the league.

Yeah, it's totally a cliche, but it's something you have to apply to most of the teams in this league. Take an integral player out of any lineup or a pitcher out of a rotation, their absence can really hurt its team in the standings.

guillensdisciple
03-24-2010, 10:03 PM
While there is reason to be negative, i do believe it is slight and not as bad as it was last year. I feel like the Sox are at least a little more solidified now thanks to the outfield additions. The fact that our only real concern is Dh is not too disturbing for me. Don't forget that a Dh is only one part of the puzzle. The White Sox have tremendous talent across the field.

A.J, Konerko, Beckham, Ramirez, Teahen, Rios, Quentin, Pierre and then reserves.

People look at this line-up and automatically assume the collapse years will be the years that will happen.

A.J, Konerko, Ramirez, and Pierre will be solid with their offensive output.

Rios has had one year of blunder and a bunch of other great years. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt? Quentin had a great end to the year and all of us know what he WILL do when healthy.

Beckham WILL be White Sox for years to come, and probably one of the best if not THE best second basemen in the major leagues.

With these positives it only leaves Teahen and Dh as a questionable. Something tells me having 7 good offensive and defensive baseball players on one team is not a bad thing. People expect the holes to be plugged in completely, and the only teams that really have that are the Yanks and the Red Sox (I am not sure about that either, I am pretty sure they have some debatables in their line-ups).

A great pitching staff, a good bullpen, and what SHOULD be a good offense is a formula for a playoff team and a championship contender. I am really struggling to find any dark clouds for the moment. When Rios and Quentin start failing, that is when I will worry. For now, I believe we have what we need to make a move in the Central as well as a run for the Series.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 10:33 PM
-And Carlos Quentin played how many games last year?
-Chris Getz is replaced with Mark Teahan, what's the difference?
-Juan Pierre's OBP last year was .365

I honestly believe they will be better than last year, enough to make them competetive. All they have to do is get into the playoffs, they don't have to be as good as the Yankees, Red Sox, whoever, just get into the playoffs. I think they have a good chance in this division.

So the plan is get Juan 300 at bats in garbage time and games against NL West opponents. Got it. Sign me up.

I'm not anti-Pierre, but he's not that good. In a better offense, it would work.

goon
03-24-2010, 10:43 PM
So the plan is get Juan 300 at bats in garbage time and games against NL West opponents. Got it. Sign me up.

I'm not anti-Pierre, but he's not that good. In a better offense, it would work.

He has a career OBP of .348, by no means excellent, but decent for a lead-off hitter as a career average.

BTW, he had 380 AB's, 425 Plate Appearances last season. In case you don't remember that whole Manny Ramirez thing, you know the 50 game suspension, well he started in his place. Not really garbage time. I have a feeling you know this, you're just ignoring the fact.

Got it? Signed you up.

munchman33
03-24-2010, 11:02 PM
He has a career OBP of .348, by no means excellent, but decent for a lead-off hitter as a career average.

BTW, he had 380 AB's, 425 Plate Appearances last season. In case you don't remember that whole Manny Ramirez thing, you know the 50 game suspension, well he started in his place. Not really garbage time. I have a feeling you know this, you're just ignoring the fact.

Got it? Signed you up.

So 50 starts and the rest of the at bats were cherry picked and garbage time. Yeah, I got it. To me, that obviously should not be counted as the rule, because we're going to start him 150+ games in a harder league.

.348 career OBP. But what were his OBP the four previous years to last? .327, .331, .330, and .326. That's not good enough unless the rest of your offense absolutely mashes.

Remember that half decade thing from earlier? It's apt here. Juan hasn't had a full season with an OBP. higher than .331 in half a decade. Fact.

Nellie_Fox
03-25-2010, 01:24 AM
Pretty much anyone would be an upgrade.This answer tells me that you don't have an answer. Of course, you know that not "pretty much anyone" would be better. I could sit here and put in name after name after name that would not be better.

My point was that there are no "bats" just floating around waiting for offers, and trading for anybody good in April will usually cost you way more than they're worth. Teams haven't given up yet in April.

doublem23
03-25-2010, 05:31 AM
By that logic, then your opinions are just as asinine as mine.

Awesome work, great job.

Well yes, but I've generally tried to back my opinions up with stats and ****, while you've just been telling people they're being crazy for not thinking the Sox are a super duper shoe-in to win 150 games this season.

I was merely pointing out the irony of calling people out for their "opinions" and then referring to your own opinions as fact.

doublem23
03-25-2010, 05:35 AM
This answer tells me that you don't have an answer. Of course, you know that not "pretty much anyone" would be better. I could sit here and put in name after name after name that would not be better.

My point was that there are no "bats" just floating around waiting for offers, and trading for anybody good in April will usually cost you way more than they're worth. Teams haven't given up yet in April.

No, literally, just about anyone would be better. ****, pry the tuna can off Ted Williams' frozen head and give him some Spring ABs. He was even BETTER than Jones was, right? That means he could magically find his stroke from the mid-40's.

Jesus Christ.

masloan
03-25-2010, 08:24 AM
No, literally, just about anyone would be better. ****, pry the tuna can off Ted Williams' frozen head and give him some Spring ABs. He was even BETTER than Jones was, right? That means he could magically find his stroke from the mid-40's.

Jesus Christ.

Not surprising that you did not respond to my post. Clearly when you look at the big picture, not just the DH and 3B position, there are many reasons to think that the 2010 Sox offense will be better than the 2009 offense.

Danielgosox38
03-25-2010, 09:19 AM
I like how Doub has actually posted stats and facts for his points, meanwhile people just tell him he's crazy, etc, but have nothing to back up their point of view.

spawn
03-25-2010, 09:31 AM
I like how Doub has actually posted stats and facts for his points, meanwhile people just tell him he's crazy, etc, but have nothing to back up their point of view.
This means a lot coming from someone whose only contributions to threads such as these are one-liners and back slaps. hell, you aren't even as anti-Jones as Doub is:

Wow. He looks SOOOO much better. I am a bit more optimistic after seeing that video. I hope he can turn it around.


There have been cases made for both sides of this debate. And I don't think there has been anyone in this debate has said with certainty that jones is going to have a monster year. Most of us are taking a wait and see apporach. but please, continue with your standard mode of posting.

doublem23
03-25-2010, 09:34 AM
Not surprising that you did not respond to my post. Clearly when you look at the big picture, not just the DH and 3B position, there are many reasons to think that the 2010 Sox offense will be better than the 2009 offense.

I've already responded to basically that exact same post seemingly a bajillion times this off-season, I don't have time or desire to argue with every crackpot who can't comprehend that the Sox might not get max. ceiling from every guy in the lineup. I've already conceded REPEATEDLY that yes, if Everyone 1-9 in the projected Sox lineup plays to their max. potential, this team could be fine offensively. However, for as long as I can remember, going back to the early 1990s, that has happened all of 3 (?) seasons, so pardon me for not holding my breath.

And before you throw out the excellent pitching staff we have, again I have to remind everyone that last year, the Sox had the #2 pitching staff in the American League and weren't realistically in the division race for a large chunk of the season. ****, we couldn't even finish .500!

If you think the Sox will be all right, fine, I DON'T ****ING CARE. You're entitled to whatever opinion you like, but to repeatedly contend there is nothing to worry about with this lineup is just insane. There are potentially a lot of problems.

asindc
03-25-2010, 09:37 AM
I like how Doub has actually posted stats and facts for his points, meanwhile people just tell him he's crazy, etc, but have nothing to back up their point of view.

You haven't really kept up with all the threads on this topic the past few weeks, have you?

Danielgosox38
03-25-2010, 09:38 AM
This means a lot coming from someone whose only contributions to threads such as these are one-liners and back slaps. hell, you aren't even as anti-Jones as Doub is:




There have been cases made for both sides of this debate. And I don't think there has been anyone in this debate has said with certainty that jones is going to have a monster year. Most of us are taking a wait and see apporach. but please, continue with your standard mode of posting.


I don't have to post stats or facts to back up my opinion about Jones. That has already been done a thousand times, so I would just be repeating what others have done over and over again. So whatever you say :rolleyes:

spawn
03-25-2010, 09:41 AM
I don't have to post stats or facts to back up my opinion about Jones. That has already been done a thousand times, so I would just be repeating what others have done over and over again. So whatever you say :rolleyes:
So instead of backing up your opinion, you rest on what others have posted, yet you deride people for supposedly not backing up their positions. Awesome! :thumbsup:

Danielgosox38
03-25-2010, 09:42 AM
This means a lot coming from someone whose only contributions to threads such as these are one-liners and back slaps. hell, you aren't even as anti-Jones as Doub is:




There have been cases made for both sides of this debate. And I don't think there has been anyone in this debate has said with certainty that jones is going to have a monster year. Most of us are taking a wait and see apporach. but please, continue with your standard mode of posting.


And yeah, I did say I was a little more optimistic after seeing that video, but I'm still not sold on him. I don't get what point you are trying to prove by posting that, but to each their own.

doublem23
03-25-2010, 09:45 AM
You haven't really kept up with all the threads on this topic the past few weeks, have you?

Andruw Jones hit 36 HR in 2000! Of course he's going to be great this year!!!

Danielgosox38
03-25-2010, 09:45 AM
So instead of backing up your opinion, you rest on what others have posted, yet you deride people for supposedly not backing up their positions. Awesome! :thumbsup:

Because the people defending Jones have nothing to back it up with. So :thumbsup:. We obviously don't ever see eye to eye on anything, so I am moving along now.

spawn
03-25-2010, 09:46 AM
And yeah, I did say I was a little more optimistic after seeing that video, but I'm still not sold on them. I don't get what point you are trying to prove by posting that, but to each their own.
You're not 100% sold on him (And I challenge you to find anyone here that is), but you have gained some confidence in him, yet you're applauding Doub, who has zero confidence in him getting the job done. If you don't get why I posted your comment, then I don't know what to say. :shrug:

asindc
03-25-2010, 09:47 AM
Andruw Jones hit 36 HR in 2000! Of course he's going to be great this year!!!

That's quite a change in position on Jones for you, especially within the same thread, no less. I wonder if anyone else will agree with you on that.

spawn
03-25-2010, 09:49 AM
Because the people defending Jones have nothing to back it up with.
Well, as asindc has stated already, you obviously haven't been keeping up with the other threads on Jones. And again, I can't stress theis enough, I challenge you to find someone, anyone, who is 100% sold on Jones having a great year.

Danielgosox38
03-25-2010, 09:51 AM
You're not 100% sold on him (And I challenge you to find anyone here that is), yet you're applauding Doub, who has zero confidence in him getting the job done. If you don't get why I posted your comment, then I don't know what to say. :shrug:


Just re-read it again. Sorry about that. I just got off work from the night shift, and haven't been to bed yet, so I'm pretty tired. I am applauding Doub because he has brought forth evidence to back up his point. Some are ridiculing him, when he has backed up the things he has said with facts, and stats. I'm more optimistic since he is in shape, and had a good spring training so far, but I still think they made a big mistake, by not signing an actual DH.

spawn
03-25-2010, 09:59 AM
Just re-read it again. Sorry about that. I just got off work from the night shift, and haven't been to bed yet, so I'm pretty tired. I am applauding Doub because he has brought forth evidence to back up his point. Some are ridiculing him, when he has backed up the things he has said with facts, and stats.
Yeah, and there are those that haven't ridiculed him and have backed up their belief that he can (not will) rebound this season. Again, I'm not 100% sold on him, but I do think there is a chance he can be successful. Would I have gambled on making him the full-time DH? No. But I'm going to take a wait and see approach before decrying this a failure.

jabrch
03-25-2010, 10:13 AM
Yeah, and there are those that haven't ridiculed him and have backed up their belief that he can (not will) rebound this season. Again, I'm not 100% sold on him, but I do think there is a chance he can be successful. Would I have gmabled on making him the full-time DH? No. But I'm going to take a wait and see approach before decrying this a failure.


That's the same position many are taking. It is quite a logical approach. A more emotive approach would be to conclude that Jones will be either a success or a failure. I see very few concluding success (can't think of any) and a bunch of loons who are 100% convinced he will be a failure. The overwhelming majority is sharing your approach Spawn - they just aren't as vocal as the piss and moan minority.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 10:15 AM
Well, as asindc has stated already, you obviously haven't been keeping up with the other threads on Jones. And again, I can't stress theis enough, I challenge you to find someone, anyone, who is 100% sold on Jones having a great year.

I challenge you to find anyone on this board other than the three of us who is realistic about Jone's chances to be productive enough for us to compete. This isn't a "the truth is in the middle somewhere" kind of situation. Andruw could have a great year, but the odds of that are closer to zero than they are to fifty-fifty.

thedudeabides
03-25-2010, 10:22 AM
I challenge you to find anyone on this board other than the three of us who is realistic about Jone's chances to be productive enough for us to compete. This isn't a "the truth is in the middle somewhere" kind of situation. Andruw could have a great year, but the odds of that are closer to zero than they are to fifty-fifty.

The Sox competing is not completely hitched to Andruw Jones performance. In fact, it's about the tenth most important thing that needs to happen for this team to be competitive.

It's rather unrealistic to think the Sox chances lie with the success or failure of Andruw Jones.

spawn
03-25-2010, 10:24 AM
It's rather unrealistic to think the Sox chances lie with the success or failure of Andruw Jones.
Thank you.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 10:46 AM
Thank you.

He's the most obvious target from a lineup full of question marks. He's also occupying the easiest position this offseason to upgrade. Even the Indians got Russell Branyan, who's way more likely to produce, for almost no money. Heck, JD is still out there, and he's a better option.

goon
03-25-2010, 11:00 AM
So 50 starts and the rest of the at bats were cherry picked and garbage time. Yeah, I got it. To me, that obviously should not be counted as the rule, because we're going to start him 150+ games in a harder league.

.348 career OBP. But what were his OBP the four previous years to last? .327, .331, .330, and .326. That's not good enough unless the rest of your offense absolutely mashes.

Remember that half decade thing from earlier? It's apt here. Juan hasn't had a full season with an OBP. higher than .331 in half a decade. Fact.

50 starts is a WAY different than what you stated before though, "So the plan is get Juan 300 at bats in garbage time." That line was completely false. It's okay to admit this... you were wrong. Before that he's been below average for a few seasons, I completely agree.

goon
03-25-2010, 11:06 AM
Even the Indians got Russell Branyan, who's way more likely to produce, for almost no money.

Russell Branyan is getting 2 million dollars compared to Andruw Jones 500,000. He has back problems and had his best season of his career, last year at 33. How is he more likely to produce?

Not to mention he can probably only play 1B. The key with the Sox is to keep Quentin healthy and that means putting him at DH sometimes with Jones playing RF.

Nellie_Fox
03-25-2010, 11:43 AM
Russell Branyan is getting 2 million dollars compared to Andruw Jones 500,000. He has back problems and had his best season of his career, last year at 33. How is he more likely to produce?

Not to mention he can probably only play 1B. The key with the Sox is to keep Quentin healthy and that means putting him at DH sometimes with Jones playing RF.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FknHC4-5wM8/SZPqKTviQOI/AAAAAAAAA-0/YokfIdFFKpQ/s400/sms_Greg.jpg

Craig Grebeck
03-25-2010, 11:44 AM
Well, as asindc has stated already, you obviously haven't been keeping up with the other threads on Jones. And again, I can't stress theis enough, I challenge you to find someone, anyone, who is 100% sold on Jones having a great year.
Probably because they've set the expectations so low that a .750 OPS would seem like he won the triple crown.

spawn
03-25-2010, 11:47 AM
Probably because they've set the expectations so low that a .750 OPS would seem like he won the triple crown.
If you say so. :shrug:

Carolina Kenny
03-25-2010, 12:07 PM
Andru Jones looks hitterish on TV and says he is in the best shape in years.

That's good enough for me to proclaim 2010 as the year of The Jones.

Not just any Jones, but The Andru Jones.

spawn
03-25-2010, 12:11 PM
Andru Jones looks hitterish on TV and says he is in the best shape in years.

That's good enough for me to proclaim 2010 as the year of The Jones.

Not just any Jones, but The Andru Jones.
Teal implied?

munchman33
03-25-2010, 12:29 PM
50 starts is a WAY different than what you stated before though, "So the plan is get Juan 300 at bats in garbage time." That line was completely false. It's okay to admit this... you were wrong. Before that he's been below average for a few seasons, I completely agree.

50 starts midseason against terrible NL West opponents and 200 more cherry picked plate appearances make me right. Your entire argument is based on 380 at bats. Even forgetting how dubious those at bats are, using them versus the previous four years is incredibly foolish.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 12:30 PM
Russell Branyan is getting 2 million dollars compared to Andruw Jones 500,000. He has back problems and had his best season of his career, last year at 33. How is he more likely to produce?

Not to mention he can probably only play 1B. The key with the Sox is to keep Quentin healthy and that means putting him at DH sometimes with Jones playing RF.

Russell Branyan is a much better hitter at this point in his career. At least his issue is getting passed injuries to produce. Andruw has to get passed the issue that he is no longer a decent baseball player.

SI1020
03-25-2010, 12:39 PM
You haven't really kept up with all the threads on this topic the past few weeks, have you? As far as writing and debating skills I think he's one of the best on this board. He usually makes a good effort to back up his points of contention with stats or other pertinent information. Of course he could be wrong about this or something else. His biggest sin from my perspective is that he has gone from optimist to a critic on some issues. Even there, I notice in the predictions thread he has the Sox winning 88 games and losing the ALCS. Hardly a doom and gloom prediction. You could take a good hard look at this team and come to the conclusion that even that might be a little optimistic.

masloan
03-25-2010, 12:40 PM
I've already responded to basically that exact same post seemingly a bajillion times this off-season, I don't have time or desire to argue with every crackpot who can't comprehend that the Sox might not get max. ceiling from every guy in the lineup. I've already conceded REPEATEDLY that yes, if Everyone 1-9 in the projected Sox lineup plays to their max. potential, this team could be fine offensively. However, for as long as I can remember, going back to the early 1990s, that has happened all of 3 (?) seasons, so pardon me for not holding my breath.

And before you throw out the excellent pitching staff we have, again I have to remind everyone that last year, the Sox had the #2 pitching staff in the American League and weren't realistically in the division race for a large chunk of the season. ****, we couldn't even finish .500!

If you think the Sox will be all right, fine, I DON'T ****ING CARE. You're entitled to whatever opinion you like, but to repeatedly contend there is nothing to worry about with this lineup is just insane. There are potentially a lot of problems.


I dont understand why you think everyone needs to play to their Max. Quentin doesnt need to play to his max to better his numbers from last year. Rios doesnt need to play to his max to improve on what he did with the sox. Pierre doesnt need to play to his max be an adequate replacement for wise/anderson/2nd half dye. Beckham doesnt need to be as good as he was last year.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 12:41 PM
If you say so. :shrug:

Would you be content if he exceeded expectations and posted a .750 OPS? Because that would be far exceeding realistic expectations.

spawn
03-25-2010, 12:41 PM
As far as writing and debating skills I think he's one of the best on this board. He usually makes a good effort to back up his points of contention with stats or other pertinent information. Of course he could be wrong about this or something else. His biggest sin from my perspective is that he has gone from optimist to a critic on some issues. Even there, I notice in the predictions thread he has the Sox winning 88 games and losing the ALCS. Hardly a doom and gloom prediction. You could take a good hard look at this team and come to the conclusion that even that might be a little optimistic.
asindc wasn't talking about Doub.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 12:42 PM
I dont understand why you think everyone needs to play to their Max. Quentin doesnt need to play to his max to better his numbers from last year. Rios doesnt need to play to his max to improve on what he did with the sox. Pierre doesnt need to play to his max be an adequate replacement for wise/anderson/2nd half dye. Beckham doesnt need to be as good as he was last year.

If Rios and Quentin do what they did last year, Beckham regresses, and Pierre posts his ordinary .330 OBP, this team is going to be in a lot of trouble.

soltrain21
03-25-2010, 12:43 PM
I dont understand why you think everyone needs to play to their Max. Quentin doesnt need to play to his max to better his numbers from last year. Rios doesnt need to play to his max to improve on what he did with the sox. Pierre doesnt need to play to his max be an adequate replacement for wise/anderson/2nd half dye. Beckham doesnt need to be as good as he was last year.

Quentin needs to have another season like 08 for this team to even remotely be breathing offensively. Rios needs to at least put up career averages, Pierre needs to have an OBP higher than .330 and if Beckham isn't as good as last year, well...that's not good.

asindc
03-25-2010, 01:02 PM
As far as writing and debating skills I think he's one of the best on this board. He usually makes a good effort to back up his points of contention with stats or other pertinent information. Of course he could be wrong about this or something else. His biggest sin from my perspective is that he has gone from optimist to a critic on some issues. Even there, I notice in the predictions thread he has the Sox winning 88 games and losing the ALCS. Hardly a doom and gloom prediction. You could take a good hard look at this team and come to the conclusion that even that might be a little optimistic.

I think you must not have noticed that I quoted Danielgosox38 and therefore was directing to him, not Doublem23.

delben91
03-25-2010, 01:09 PM
If Rios and Quentin do what they did last year, Beckham regresses, and Pierre posts his ordinary .330 OBP, this team is going to be in a lot of trouble.

Realistically, not every player is going to have a maximum production year, but realistically, not every player is going to have a career-worst year either.

Logically, some will exceed career norms, some will not meet career norms, and some will match career norms. If this happens, is this a world championship caliber club? No. But they won't be a 60 win team either which is what some of these posts imply (no, no one has said that, which is why I said "imply").

Could either extreme happen? Yes, but not likely. But today's roster and the one that finishes the season might not be the same either. A lot of variables still out there.

doublem23
03-25-2010, 01:56 PM
asindc wasn't talking about Doub.

Everybody is talking about Doub.

:cool:

munchman33
03-25-2010, 02:49 PM
Realistically, not every player is going to have a maximum production year, but realistically, not every player is going to have a career-worst year either.

Logically, some will exceed career norms, some will not meet career norms, and some will match career norms. If this happens, is this a world championship caliber club? No. But they won't be a 60 win team either which is what some of these posts imply (no, no one has said that, which is why I said "imply").

Could either extreme happen? Yes, but not likely. But today's roster and the one that finishes the season might not be the same either. A lot of variables still out there.

If everyone performs how they should reasonably expect to, we're in the 74-80 win range. Obviously, some will be better and some will be worse. But we need a lot more better than worse. I don't know how likely that is, especially with the guys we have.

edit: also, this is under the assumption our starters kick ass. If that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, we are absolutely ****ed.

35th and Shields
03-25-2010, 04:17 PM
If everyone performs how they should reasonably expect to, we're in the 74-80 win range. Obviously, some will be better and some will be worse. But we need a lot more better than worse. I don't know how likely that is, especially with the guys we have.

edit: also, this is under the assumption our starters kick ass. If that doesn't happen, for whatever reason, we are absolutely ****ed.

Let's simplify this.
2009 White Sox = 79-83
2010 White Sox hitting > 2009 White Sox hitting
2010 White Sox pitching > 2009 White sox pitching

And you think we will be worse then last year? I'm curious as to your negativity surrounding this roster. I realize you have a great concern for the DH, 3B, and the outfield but compared to what we had last year, on paper this team IS much better. There is no position on the entire roster where we have regressed from last season aside from the decrease we may see in the transition from Thome to Kotsay/Jones.

Our lineup sucked last year, our best hitter was a rookie, Dye tanked, Quentin was hurt, BA/Wise were brutal, Fields continued to suck. Over 31%, almost 1/3, of team's PA's were between BA, Wise, Nix, Lillibridge, Fields, and two rookies. That's a terrible offense but you think will be better then what we have this year?

gobears1987
03-25-2010, 04:17 PM
If I moved anyone to DH....it would be Quentin....more from an injury avoidance perspective than anything else.

Yeah I was thinking the same. He does have a tendency to get injured so it makes sense to get him ABs in a position where his risk of injury is reduced. I'd still like to see him wear elbow pads with the number of HBPs he suffers due to his stance.

guillensdisciple
03-25-2010, 04:20 PM
The Sox competing is not completely hitched to Andruw Jones performance. In fact, it's about the tenth most important thing that needs to happen for this team to be competitive.

It's rather unrealistic to think the Sox chances lie with the success or failure of Andruw Jones.


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

This is what irks me the most about these threads. People act like one or two people make a whole team.

Give me a team with a full roster of proven players besides the Yankees and Red Sox. I already posted this earlier, but no one commented it. I assume there is no argument to this point because it's true. Sure, Jones might suck, but that means ONE player from a line- up of nine will suck. Why am I supposed to start pissing my pants because one player MIGHT suck or MIGHT not suck? Or am I supposed to be under the assumption that everyone on the Sox will be horrible this year?

I just really want to figure out why I should be worried when I am finding two or three claims towards positions that might be iffy, with the DH spot being the only one that really holds any legitimate cause to worry,

Jim Shorts
03-25-2010, 04:21 PM
If everyone performs how they should reasonably expect to, we're in the 74-80 win range.


This is just ridiculous. The fact that it's being spun as truth makes it absurd.



Jeez, I wonder why no one here actually works for or in Major League Baseball.

ilsox7
03-25-2010, 04:52 PM
This is just ridiculous. The fact that it's being spun as truth makes it absurd.



Jeez, I wonder why no one here actually works for or in Major League Baseball.

Well said. And keep in mind the track record some of the folks around these parts have when predicting things. Their doom and gloom makes me feel more optimistic about this year. Regardless, baseball, especially in MARCH and APRIL is meant to be enjoyed.

asindc
03-25-2010, 04:55 PM
Let's simplify this.
2009 White Sox = 79-83
2010 White Sox hitting > 2009 White Sox hitting
2010 White Sox pitching > 2009 White sox pitching

And you think we will be worse then last year? I'm curious as to your negativity surrounding this roster. I realize you have a great concern for the DH, 3B, and the outfield but compared to what we had last year, on paper this team IS much better. There is no position on the entire roster where we have regressed from last season aside from the decrease we may see in the transition from Thome to Kotsay/Jones.

Our lineup sucked last year, our best hitter was a rookie, Dye tanked, Quentin was hurt, BA/Wise were brutal, Fields continued to suck. Over 31%, almost 1/3, of team's PA's were between BA, Wise, Nix, Lillibridge, Fields, and two rookies. That's a terrible offense but you think will be better then what we have this year?

I humbly suggest that you can add this line as well:

"2010 White Sox defense > 2009 White Sox defense"

goon
03-25-2010, 05:15 PM
Russell Branyan is a much better hitter at this point in his career. At least his issue is getting passed injuries to produce. Andruw has to get passed the issue that he is no longer a decent baseball player.

Right so a guy with a herniated disk, who's older than Jones, can only play only play 1B, costs 1.5 million dollars more AND had the best year of his career last season is a better option than Jones? That's delusional.

Last year he hit 31 HR. His previous high was 24, EIGHT years ago! That's also the last time he had over 300 AB's! That's the guy you want to depend on? Whatever. There's a reason no one wanted to sign the guy, including the team that he played for last season. I'm not defending Jones, but there is no way Russell Branyan is a better option. Not to mention the fact the guy is probably starting the season on the ****ing DL (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100323&content_id=8884964&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb).

munchman33
03-25-2010, 05:56 PM
Right so a guy with a herniated disk, who's older than Jones, can only play only play 1B, costs 1.5 million dollars more AND had the best year of his career last season is a better option than Jones? That's delusional.

Last year he hit 31 HR. His previous high was 24, EIGHT years ago! That's also the last time he had over 300 AB's! That's the guy you want to depend on? Whatever. There's a reason no one wanted to sign the guy, including the team that he played for last season. I'm not defending Jones, but there is no way Russell Branyan is a better option. Not to mention the fact the guy is probably starting the season on the ****ing DL (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100323&content_id=8884964&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb).

When Russel Branyan is healthy, he hits. When Andruw Jones is healthy, he does not. The only function a DH serves - to hit.

There is not way Russel Branyan isn't a better option. You're in the kool-aid. The guy has always hit when he played. So what if he spends half the year hurt? He contributes when he plays. Jones will more than likely waste at bats. That's why Branyan got more money and a guaranteed deal late in the offseason, where as Jones had to jump on the only idiot willing to offer a major league deal as the offseason began.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 06:01 PM
This is just ridiculous. The fact that it's being spun as truth makes it absurd.


The only position on offense we are above average are RF and 2B. Our RF has serious injury concerns. Our 2B is only going into his second year. We might have above average seasons at other positions, but that's only likely to happen at CF and SS, if at all.

Saying this offense is fine or likely to be fine - that's what's absurd. Beyond absurd. You have to live in a box to believe we're likely to be okay on offense, without thought of baseball players other teams possess. We are significantly more likely to be bottom half in offense, with potential to be both better or worse.

goon
03-25-2010, 06:11 PM
When Russel Branyan is healthy, he hits. When Andruw Jones is healthy, he does not. The only function a DH serves - to hit.

There is not way Russel Branyan isn't a better option. You're in the kool-aid. The guy has always hit when he played. So what if he spends half the year hurt? He contributes when he plays. Jones will more than likely waste at bats. That's why Branyan got more money and a guaranteed deal late in the offseason, where as Jones had to jump on the only idiot willing to offer a major league deal as the offseason began.

haha, I can't believe you are trying to weasel out of the fact that Russell Branyan hasn't even played a game of Spring Training... JUST started playing catch TWO days ago and in all likelihood, is starting the season on the DL and yet, he's a better option.

What you are saying is that a player who doesn't even play is better than one on the field. WHAT THE ****?! What are you talking about?! How can you now, after seeing all this happen, still deny that signing Russell Branyan would have be a disastrous mistake?

goon
03-25-2010, 06:15 PM
Our RF has serious injury concerns. Which is probably why Williams decided to sign Andruw Jones instead of a Jim Thome or Russell Branyan... you know, so Quentin can DH some games. I don't understand how you don't get this. One of the key reasons this team sucked on offense last year is because Quentin was injured the entire season and only played 99 games.

Ideally, it would be intelligent to keep the best hitter on your team healthy and playing.

Jim Shorts
03-25-2010, 06:16 PM
The only position on offense we are above average are RF and 2B. Our RF has serious injury concerns. Our 2B is only going into his second year. We might have above average seasons at other positions, but that's only likely to happen at CF and SS, if at all.

Saying this offense is fine or likely to be fine - that's what's absurd. Beyond absurd. You have to live in a box to believe we're likely to be okay on offense, without thought of baseball players other teams possess. We are significantly more likely to be bottom half in offense, with potential to be both better or worse.


No. Your claim of an arbitrary number of Sox total wins based on whatever it was you based it on was nonsensical.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 06:36 PM
haha, I can't believe you are trying to weasel out of the fact that Russell Branyan hasn't even played a game of Spring Training... JUST started playing catch TWO days ago and in all likelihood, is starting the season on the DL and yet, he's a better option.

What you are saying is that a player who doesn't even play is better than one on the field. WHAT THE ****?! What are you talking about?! How can you now, after seeing all this happen, still deny that signing Russell Branyan would have be a disastrous mistake?

What's the use of having a guy as a starter that's going to put up bench guy numbers? When Branyan doesn't play, put in your Andruw Jones' of the world.

Which is probably why Williams decided to sign Andruw Jones instead of a Jim Thome or Russell Branyan... you know, so Quentin can DH some games. I don't understand how you don't get this. One of the key reasons this team sucked on offense last year is because Quentin was injured the entire season and only played 99 games.

Ideally, it would be intelligent to keep the best hitter on your team healthy and playing.

If the idea is to DH Quentin, then Kenny should have picked up a RF. That is a tired excuse for not picking up another everyday player.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 06:40 PM
No. Your claim of an arbitrary number of Sox total wins based on whatever it was you based it on was nonsensical.

You can say that about any number, really. My range is based on how I see our offense producing. Juan having a .330 OBP, Carlos probably playing 120 games (some not at 100%), Rios getting a little better, Teahan not improving, Gordon improving, Paulie and AJ falling off a bit, Jones being a nightmare black hole...you know, the things that are likely to happen.

doublem23
03-25-2010, 07:00 PM
Which is probably why Williams decided to sign Andruw Jones instead of a Jim Thome or Russell Branyan... you know, so Quentin can DH some games. I don't understand how you don't get this. One of the key reasons this team sucked on offense last year is because Quentin was injured the entire season and only played 99 games.

Ideally, it would be intelligent to keep the best hitter on your team healthy and playing.

Ideally, it would be best to find ways to keep Andruw Jones out of the lineup, not find more ways to squeeze him in.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:06 PM
If the idea is to DH Quentin, then Kenny should have picked up a RF. That is a tired excuse for not picking up another everyday player.

Awesome, any idea who? Because you know he didn't try to do this, right?

goon
03-25-2010, 07:08 PM
What's the use of having a guy as a starter that's going to put up bench guy numbers? When Branyan doesn't play, put in your Andruw Jones' of the world.

You realize that Branyan isn't even playing now at all. Who knows when he is going to be back or if he will even be any good? How can you argue that a guy who isn't even playing is a better option?

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:09 PM
Awesome, any idea who? Because you know he didn't try to do this, right?

Then he failed. I'm not allowed to call him out for putting together a ****ty offense? There's so many other things he could of done. He misjudged the market early and signed a couple lesser player for guaranteed money, and then instead of fixing the problem with a cheap solution later in the offseason, he just went with it. Sorry, he deserves to be called out for that. Too many better players than Andruw signed for $2 million or less. Kenny did a really bad job.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:10 PM
You realize that Branyan isn't even playing now at all. Who knows when he is going to be back or if he will even be any good? How can you argue that a guy who isn't even playing is a better option?

I'd take the risk of a partial season of Branyan supplemented by bench over a full season of Andruw Jones any day. That shouldn't be debatable. There's a huge quality disparity there.

cards press box
03-25-2010, 07:13 PM
When Russel Branyan is healthy, he hits. When Andruw Jones is healthy, he does not. The only function a DH serves - to hit.

There is not way Russel Branyan isn't a better option.

I don't know about this. Right now, Andruw Jones seems healthy and poised for a renaissance. Russell Branyan appears to be hurt.

I didn't have high expectations for Jones prior to spring training but, right now, he looks great. His game against the Dodgers last week (double, steal of third, 400 foot blast for a three-run homer) was outstanding. What's more, Jones has been playing quite well in the field.

I know that the season hasn't even begun, but I wonder if the Sox don't have the Comeback Player of the Year in Jones.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:14 PM
Ideally, it would be best to find ways to keep Andruw Jones out of the lineup, not find more ways to squeeze him in.

Who gives a ****? Where do you think he bats in this lineup? Maybe sixth? You're worried about who bats sixth or seventh?

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:14 PM
I don't know about this. Right now, Andruw Jones seems healthy and poised for a renaissance. Russell Branyan appears to be hurt.

I didn't have high expectations for Jones prior to spring training but, right now, he looks great. His game against the Dodgers last week (double, steal of third, 400 foot blast for a three-run homer) was outstanding. What's more, Jones has been playing quite well in the field.

I know that the season hasn't even begun, but I wonder if the Sox don't have the Comeback Player of the Year in Jones.

Go back and look at the box score and see what pitchers Andruw got his knocks off of in that game. I'll rest my case.

edit: and if the idea is to DH Carlos and go with defense, fine. Play Kotsay everyday. He's a better option on both ends.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:17 PM
Who gives a ****? Where do you think he bats in this lineup? Maybe sixth? You're worried about who bats sixth or seventh?

Because this lineup isn't very good overall. You might think otherwise, but that's only going to be the majority opinion two places, and neither of those places are unbiased.

Corlose 15
03-25-2010, 07:20 PM
You know, your expectations of what Jones could accomplish this season are based largely on why you feel he's been so bad the last three (our however many you think) seasons.

If you feel he is a player that has shown an incredible amount of talent throughout his career before his recent struggles, and has had issues with conditioning, and health. Then you consider it a possibility that he could actually work out this season for the Sox considering his current physical condition.

If you are convinced that during the last three years it wasn't that he was out of shape, or injured, or got complacent and merely that his skills have eroded to the point that he's no longer even passable, or that his skills were artificially produced, then it's a forgone conclusion that he will produce nothing. Furthermore, nothing anybody says will really convince you otherwise.

I don't think any of us really know definitively why he's struggled so much the last 3 seasons and as such the certainty that people have about his 2010 season smacks of arrogance.

The fact is we don't know what he's going to do because it's pretty clear that he is in the better physical condition now than he's been in quite a few years. Again, if you feel that his skills have eroded then his being in shape is a moot point. If you feel he still has some of the ability that allowed him to hit 41 HR in 2006 then you consider it possible for him to be productive this season.

To say that you know what kind of numbers he's going to produce and that it's almost out of the realm of possibility that he could do any better than that is pretty smug.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:23 PM
Because this lineup isn't very good overall. You might think otherwise, but that's only going to be the majority opinion two places, and neither of those places are unbiased.

Doesn't really need to be very good, does it? Just average and the Sox will be competitive.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:27 PM
I'd take the risk of a partial season of Branyan supplemented by bench over a full season of Andruw Jones any day. That shouldn't be debatable. There's a huge quality disparity there.

The fact that you are arguing that a player who may not even play for the next few months and has done JACK **** for eight years before 2009 is better than ANYONE is completely idiotic. Might be the dumbest thing I've ever seen argued.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:28 PM
Doesn't really need to be very good, does it? Just average and the Sox will be competitive.

And as long as about 75% of the stuff on offense we need to go right does, we'll be right there. Of course, that also means our staff is healthy and extremely productive all year too. There is literally no room for error.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:29 PM
The fact that you are arguing that a player who may not even play for the next few months and has done JACK **** for eight years before 2009 is better than ANYONE is completely idiotic. Might be the dumbest thing I've ever seen argued.

He was pretty dang good in a full time role last year, even with back problems...

I'm not so much arguing for him as I am him being a better option than Jones.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:30 PM
And as long as about 75% of the stuff on offense we need to go right does, we'll be right there. Of course, that also means our staff is healthy and extremely productive all year too. There is literally no room for error.

Unfortunately most teams outside of the Yankees don't have a ton of room for error.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:35 PM
Unfortunately most teams outside of the Yankees don't have a ton of room for error.

Yes, but we have none. We need soooo many things to play out better than realistic expectation. It isn't realistic to expect Carlos to be injury free and have an MVP campaign. It's not fair to him to expect that, but we need it. The expectations on Gordon are also unfair. To expect Rios, after a brutal season, to rebound completely is an unfair expectation. But we need those things to happen. We need Paulie and AJ to be better than last year, when it's likely they will be worse due to age. It isn't fair because it isn't all that realistic. And we need all of it to occur.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:38 PM
He was pretty dang good in a full time role last year, even with back problems...

I'm not so much arguing for him as I am him being a better option than Jones.

You said he was "way more likely to produce" so how is one to interpret that? He played 116 games then his back gave out, obviously he can't handle a full time role. One good season doesn't eliminate what kind of player he has been over the past 7 years.

Jones has been mashing at the plate if you haven't noticed. I wasn't a fan when the contract was signed, but can see that my preconceived notion of what kind of player Jones might be at this point in his career COULD be wrong.

You're looking at a guy who is seemingly healthy and killing the ball and you're pissed off about the fact we didn't sign someone else? Personally, I'm happy to see him playing well.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:39 PM
Yes, but we have none. We need soooo many things to play out better than realistic expectation. It isn't realistic to expect Carlos to be injury free and have an MVP campaign. It's not fair to him to expect that, but we need it. The expectations on Gordon are also unfair. To expect Rios, after a brutal season, to rebound completely is an unfair expectation. But we need those things to happen. We need Paulie and AJ to be better than last year, when it's likely they will be worse due to age. It isn't fair because it isn't all that realistic. And we need all of it to occur.

Take any team and you could pick them apart the same way.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:40 PM
You said he was "way more likely to produce" so how is one to interpret that? He played 116 games then his back gave out, obviously he can't handle a full time role. One good season doesn't eliminate what kind of player he has been over the past 7 years.

Jones has been mashing at the plate if you haven't noticed. I wasn't a fan when the contract was signed, but can see that my preconceived notion of what kind of player Jones might be at this point in his career COULD be wrong.

You're looking at a guy who is seemingly healthy and killing the ball and you're pissed off about the fact we didn't sign someone else? Personally, I'm happy to see him playing well.

I view Jone's having about as close to zero a chance of doing any better than hitting .230 as I have anyone this team has ever had. I really don't believe he can hit anymore at all.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:40 PM
Yes, but we have none.

So, we're like every other team without a 500 billion dollar payroll. Imagine that?

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:42 PM
Take any team and you could pick them apart the same way.

Not really. Not even our division rivals. I'm pretty sure Mauer/Morneau and Cabrera are all going to have monster seasons, and it's pretty fair to expect them to do so. We have no sure things in our lineup, it's all role players and pray.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:43 PM
I view Jone's having about as close to zero a chance of doing any better than hitting .230 as I have anyone this team has ever had. I really don't believe he can hit anymore at all.

Well, Branyan can't really walk anymore, so I don't see how he's a better option. Explain that to me.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:44 PM
Well, Branyan can't really walk anymore, so I don't see how he's a better option. Explain that to me.

Now you're being silly. He'll heal soon enough.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:49 PM
Not really. Not even our division rivals. I'm pretty sure Mauer/Morneau and Cabrera are all going to have monster seasons, and it's pretty fair to expect them to do so. We have no sure things in our lineup, it's all role players and pray.

Of course you can! You can apply so many of the things you are saying to players on any team! You could call out the "expectations" on Porcello for the Tigers and behind him and Verlander, the Tigers rotation is one huge question mark. And talk about a lineup with holes, these are some of their starting position players: Austin Jackson, Magglio Ordonez, Brandon Inge, Adam Everett, Gerald Laird, Carlos Guillen and Scott Sizemore. That is a ****ing joke of a lineup. 2 guys with little to no MLB experience, 2 guys over the hill, a catcher and a 3B that can't hit.

Oh, but Miguel Cabrera is going to have a monster season, that's a "for sure" thing so they are better off..... What?

See it's easy.

goon
03-25-2010, 07:51 PM
Now you're being silly. He'll heal soon enough.

You don't really know that though. You're just guessing. I'd rather have a guy like Jones than someone who hasn't sniffed a baseball field and has no set-date to return.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:54 PM
You don't really know that though. You're just guessing. I'd rather have a guy like Jones than someone who hasn't sniffed a baseball field and has no set-date to return.

I'm ready to go. Does that mean I'm a better option than Branyan? Hardly...

munchman33
03-25-2010, 07:56 PM
Of course you can! You can apply so many of the things you are saying to players on any team! You could call out the "expectations" on Porcello for the Tigers and behind him and Verlander, the Tigers rotation is one huge question mark. And talk about a lineup with holes, these are some of their starting position players: Austin Jackson, Magglio Ordonez, Brandon Inge, Adam Everett, Gerald Laird, Carlos Guillen and Scott Sizemore. That is a ****ing joke of a lineup. 2 guys with little to no MLB experience, 2 guys over the hill, a catcher and a 3B that can't hit.

Oh, but Miguel Cabrera is going to have a monster season, that's a "for sure" thing so they are better off..... What?

See it's easy.

There's more certainty. They need less to go right on offense. Now, I think we are better than the Tigers because of our rotation (not in a year or two though). The Twins, I doubt it. They're better defensively, offensively, have a better pen (even without Nathan), and still have a pretty good rotation. They've also got a deep minor league system to help them deal with any problems.

goon
03-25-2010, 08:02 PM
There's more certainty. They need less to go right on offense.

More certainty that they are going to suck. Outside of Cabrera and maybe Damon that lineup might be the worst in this division. There is no way our offense is worse than what Detroit has this season.

The point is that any team you can look at and say, "well if he gets hurt..." or "if he has a bad season...". I'm not discussing how we stack up against division rivals, that's not what I'm talking about.

goon
03-25-2010, 08:05 PM
I'm ready to go. Does that mean I'm a better option than Branyan? Hardly...

Andruw Jones <= Munchman33

munchman33
03-25-2010, 08:16 PM
More certainty that they are going to suck. Outside of Cabrera and maybe Damon that lineup might be the worst in this division. There is no way our offense is worse than what Detroit has this season.

The point is that any team you can look at and say, "well if he gets hurt..." or "if he has a bad season...". I'm not discussing how we stack up against division rivals, that's not what I'm talking about.

That's very debatable. Their question marks aren't as numerous as ours, even if our upside might be higher.

munchman33
03-25-2010, 08:17 PM
Andruw Jones <= Munchman33

Give me a few weeks to get into playing shape. :cool:

russ99
03-25-2010, 08:22 PM
Yes, but we have none. We need soooo many things to play out better than realistic expectation. It isn't realistic to expect Carlos to be injury free and have an MVP campaign. It's not fair to him to expect that, but we need it. The expectations on Gordon are also unfair. To expect Rios, after a brutal season, to rebound completely is an unfair expectation. But we need those things to happen. We need Paulie and AJ to be better than last year, when it's likely they will be worse due to age. It isn't fair because it isn't all that realistic. And we need all of it to occur.

No, we don't need any of those things.

We don't need Carlos to put up MVP numbers, just stay relatively healthy and put up numbers a bit less than what he gave us in 2008.

We don't need Gordon to hit .320./30/90, or be the second-coming of Longoria - we just need him to continue to progress at the plate and not get mired in a sophomore slump.

We don't need Rios to equal his career highs, only his career averages, which with his talent level and familiarity with the team is certainly doable.

We don't need Paul and AJ to do better than last year, just do the same as last year. Since both are in a contract year, I'd imagine that it's possible for each to meet or exceed that.

In short, we don't need to wait on a load of homers, we need to score runs, hit well situationally, move runners and don't leave so many men on base - i.e. capitalize on our chances like balanced baseball teams do.

But some people just can't let that 16-inch softball team mentality die...