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View Full Version : Hawk vs. Hemond as GM, Revisited


veeter
03-20-2010, 12:48 PM
The White Sox are rapidly degenerating into a dysfunctional organization...Recently, Rich Hahn was honored as the best assistant GM in the game. If thinks continue to fall aprt, I would love to see him talke over as GM and Kenny to assume an upper managment role.

I am not liking this at all. Way too many distractions for a team that I believe is just slightly better than .500. With a payroll that we have, that is not good enough.The Sox have been dysfunctional for a while now. Take the great Hawk for example. Who, after setting the oragnization back as a horse**** GM, decides to pick a fight with Kent Hrbek, while on the air. That was far more embarrassing to me, than this. Reinsdorf is loyal to a fault, so guys get away with this crap. I sympathize with Kenny who seemingly plays everything straight, in his job and personal life.

dickallen15
03-20-2010, 01:32 PM
The Sox have been dysfunctional for a while now. Take the great Hawk for example. Who, after setting the oragnization back as a horse**** GM, decides to pick a fight with Kent Hrbek, while on the air. That was far more embarrassing to me, than this. Reinsdorf is loyal to a fault, so guys get away with this crap. I sympathize with Kenny who seemingly plays everything straight, in his job and personal life.
How did Hawk set the team back as a GM? That team was destined to fail. Britt Burns never pitched again. Tom Seaver cried his way out of town. Hawk acquired Ivan Calderon who later became Tim Raines. He also picked up Bobby Bonilla in the rule 5, eventually trading him back to Pittsburgh (which is questionable, but again he got him for $20k) for Jose DeLeon, who eventually became the One Dog. He did can a bunch of scouts, but the scouts he canned just the year previously picked Kurt Brown with the 5th pick in the draft. Barry Bonds went next.

His feud that you claim he "picked" with Hrbek, was Hrbek being pissed off about Hawk using "grab some bench" after a strikeout. Wow, that's embarrassing to the White Sox organization. I think its more embarrassing a guy is complaining about the opponents announcer myself. Shouldn't he be playing not watching television?

WhiteSox5187
03-20-2010, 02:19 PM
How did Hawk set the team back as a GM? That team was destined to fail. Britt Burns never pitched again. Tom Seaver cried his way out of town. Hawk acquired Ivan Calderon who later became Tim Raines. He also picked up Bobby Bonilla in the rule 5, eventually trading him back to Pittsburgh (which is questionable, but again he got him for $20k) for Jose DeLeon, who eventually became the One Dog. He did can a bunch of scouts, but the scouts he canned just the year previously picked Kurt Brown with the 5th pick in the draft. Barry Bonds went next.

His feud that you claim he "picked" with Hrbek, was Hrbek being pissed off about Hawk using "grab some bench" after a strikeout. Wow, that's embarrassing to the White Sox organization. I think its more embarrassing a guy is complaining about the opponents announcer myself. Shouldn't he be playing not watching television?

Hawk's bitching behind the scenes led to the firing of Roland Hemond who was arguably the best GM in Sox history (for God's sake, the award for best GM is named after him!). He fired Tony LaRussa who is what, the third winningest manager of all time? LaRussa, for all his flaws, was a considerablly better manager than every manager that followed him with the possible exception of Ozzie (time will tell there). He also fired David Dombrowski who would go on to put together the talent of the Expos teams of the early 1990s, would put together two World Series champions in Florida and also turn Detroit around from a 103 loss to a pennant winner in three years. I'd say Hawk did a fair amount of damage, though all of it was mainly to the front office.

dickallen15
03-20-2010, 03:21 PM
Hawk's bitching behind the scenes led to the firing of Roland Hemond who was arguably the best GM in Sox history (for God's sake, the award for best GM is named after him!). He fired Tony LaRussa who is what, the third winningest manager of all time? LaRussa, for all his flaws, was a considerablly better manager than every manager that followed him with the possible exception of Ozzie (time will tell there). He also fired David Dombrowski who would go on to put together the talent of the Expos teams of the early 1990s, would put together two World Series champions in Florida and also turn Detroit around from a 103 loss to a pennant winner in three years. I'd say Hawk did a fair amount of damage, though all of it was mainly to the front office.

How many championship teams did Roland Hemond construct with the Sox and the various teams he was the GM with after he left?

Tony LaRussa, I don't know but his time was up. This was a guy who had Canseco, McGwire, Rickey Henderson, Stewart, Bob Welch, Eckersley, on and on and on. Anyone could have accululated wins with that roster. He won once with them. He won again with the Cardinals with a team that had 83 wins, so he was lucky he was in the playoffs. If you really think the White Sox would have been better in 1987,1988,1989 with LaRussa, I disagree and if they were they may not have been in a position to draft Thomas, Ventura and Fernandez. In fact, the Sox winning pct. in 1986 when LaRussa was fired was much better with Fregosi than Tony that year. The team needed to rebuild and Himes and Goldis came in and rebuilt them. I don't think Dave Dombrowski would have done as well as Larry Himes in the draft, but some guys just want to rip Hawk to rip him so go ahead. If he wasn't the GM that one season,I'm sure the Sox would have as many trophies as the Bulls.

Lip Man 1
03-20-2010, 07:00 PM
Dick:

Hawk Harrelson was absolutely brutal as a G.M. he was out of his league. Carlton Fisk in left field is all you need to know. But it wasn't all his fault. He was asked to do it by ownership and later both JR and EE admitted publicly that it was a bad idea. I can get you both quotes from them if you wish.

Lip

dickallen15
03-21-2010, 09:16 AM
Dick:

Hawk Harrelson was absolutely brutal as a G.M. he was out of his league. Carlton Fisk in left field is all you need to know. But it wasn't all his fault. He was asked to do it by ownership and later both JR and EE admitted publicly that it was a bad idea. I can get you both quotes from them if you wish.

Lip

I'm not saying he was a great GM. I'm saying he didn't cause all this damage setting the team back for decades as many have suggested over the years. Hawk wound up hating the job for one thing. He brought Tom Haller in to help him the one year he was at the helm. The fact was, the team was faced with a total rebuild. Roland Hemond is a nice guy and a good baseball man, but I'm sure glad Himes and Goldis were around for the 1987,1988,1989, and 1990 drafts. As for the 1986 season, they wouldn't have gone anywhere no matter who was the GM. Hawk traded Burns, he never pitched again. Seaver wasn't going to be effective. Bob James blew up. Fisk in LF, maybe not the greatest idea, but he made 29 starts in LF. They realized the mistake and changed it. He made 5 starts in LF his last season in Boston. He made a couple of starts in LF for the White Sox in 1987 when Hawk was long gone. He even played in LF his first season with the White Sox. That was Hemond and LaRussa. Apparently that qualifies at least one of them for a head exam.

tick53
03-21-2010, 11:29 AM
Hawk fired Tony LaRussa who went on to become a pretty good manager, didn't he? In the wake the team endured some less than spectacular managers. Hawk was a terrible GM for that if nothing else.

Tragg
03-21-2010, 12:00 PM
How did Hawk set the team back as a GM? That team was destined to fail. Britt Burns never pitched again. Tom Seaver cried his way out of town. Hawk acquired Ivan Calderon who later became Tim Raines. He also picked up Bobby Bonilla in the rule 5, eventually trading him back to Pittsburgh (which is questionable, but again he got him for $20k) for Jose DeLeon, who eventually became the One Dog. He did can a bunch of scouts, but the scouts he canned just the year previously picked Kurt Brown with the 5th pick in the draft. Barry Bonds went next.


I don't know if he was an overall plus or minus, but it's refreshing to hear the good that he did. And that team was in need of an overhaul.

Hemond was a very interesting GM, and for much of his career, he had to manage with paper cups and string as his resources. But a 64 win team not protecting Pete Vuckovich in the expansion draft....(and a few really awful trades).

Lip Man 1
03-21-2010, 12:17 PM
Pete Vukovich was basically a one or two year wonder who in the long run wouldn't have made any difference, nor by 1983 was he even missed when the Sox had seven (count em') seven starting pitchers on the spring roster who each had won ten or more games in a season in the big leagues.

The Fisk to left field situation got out of hand because Hawk did it on his own without asking Fisk about it and Carlton was really, really pissed.

Let's just say the best thing to come out of the Hawk season was he realized he was in over his head and got the hell out.

Lip

dickallen15
03-21-2010, 02:29 PM
Hawk fired Tony LaRussa who went on to become a pretty good manager, didn't he? In the wake the team endured some less than spectacular managers. Hawk was a terrible GM for that if nothing else.

I don't know how old you are so I don't know if you were following the White Sox in 1986, but I can tell you if these message boards were around, they would have been calling for LaRussa's head back then. He used to get booed worse than Jerry Manuel ever did when he came out to the mound.

LaRussa has had a good career. Would he really have made much of a difference for the White Sox? They were going into a total rebuilding mode, and as I stated before, even if he was or is the genius many believe, he certainly wasn't going to lead the White Sox at that time to a championship and if he is worth a few more wins every year, Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez may have never worn a White Sox uniform. Same with Jack McDowell. There's no guarantee if Hemond had stayed, his people would have picked him.

What happened happened. The White Sox built on it. Himes and Goldis did a great job rebuilding. Some of the guys Hawk traded for played a role in getting better as well. I just fail to see how its the huge disaster people have made it out to be. His tenure certainly wasn't a success, and maybe it would have been a disaster had he stayed around longer, but that didn't happen.

Brian26
03-21-2010, 02:39 PM
What happened happened. The White Sox built on it. Himes and Goldis did a great job rebuilding. Some of the guys Hawk traded for played a role in getting better as well. I just fail to see how its the huge disaster people have made it out to be. His tenure certainly wasn't a success, and maybe it would have been a disaster had he stayed around longer, but that didn't happen.

I agree with most of this. We've had some fairly animated discussions on this topic in the past. I'm thinking of trying to locate that thread and tying these together. I remember a couple of guys even breaking down Hawk's career as a GM move-by-move.

Edit- Actually, the most recent thread was discussion comparing Hemond to Kenny Williams:
The "Master" Plan (aka The Great "Hemond vs. Williams Debate") (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=113342&page=4&highlight=hemond)

JNS
03-21-2010, 06:49 PM
I don't know how old you are so I don't know if you were following the White Sox in 1986, but I can tell you if these message boards were around, they would have been calling for LaRussa's head back then. He used to get booed worse than Jerry Manuel ever did when he came out to the mound.

LaRussa has had a good career. Would he really have made much of a difference for the White Sox? They were going into a total rebuilding mode, and as I stated before, even if he was or is the genius many believe, he certainly wasn't going to lead the White Sox at that time to a championship and if he is worth a few more wins every year, Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez may have never worn a White Sox uniform. Same with Jack McDowell. There's no guarantee if Hemond had stayed, his people would have picked him.

What happened happened. The White Sox built on it. Himes and Goldis did a great job rebuilding. Some of the guys Hawk traded for played a role in getting better as well. I just fail to see how its the huge disaster people have made it out to be. His tenure certainly wasn't a success, and maybe it would have been a disaster had he stayed around longer, but that didn't happen.

Hawk was disgusting. Arrogant, ignorant, a blabber-mouth who talked the talk but fell on his ass when he tried to walk the walk. He was a kiss-ass courtier to the Eddie's - who really weren't any better as owners at that time - and he did set the Sox back in a number of ways. Yeah he got Bonilla, and traded him for a bum after one season. The Fisk move was beyond stupid. His treatment of Hemond - one of the guys who saved the team for this city - was totally uncalled for. The guy has some value as an announcer, but as a baseball executive I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a worse one.

Perhaps the worst part of having him run the team was the differential between his self-serving blather and his actual performance once he was given the reigns. Beyond embarrassing. Of course he has no shame at all, so he's incapable of being embarrassed by anything.

A callow fool with an ego as big as a truck. attached to a brain that's about half the size he assumes it is. A bad guy in a lot of ways.

Lip's point is well taken - his best move was to quit - if he hadn't he'd have been run out of town on a rail. It's tough enough listening to his endless drivel on the tube (think goodness for Stone) but having him actually run the team was one of the low points of Sox history.

Lip Man 1
03-21-2010, 07:57 PM
It's always fun to play the "What if" game and in my opinion had Tony and Roland stayed the Sox would never have gone through the desolate period from 86-89.

Tony doesn't manage rebuilding teams, he would have insisted the Sox spend the money and bring in talent to win. And before you say "JR wouldn't have done it..." keep in mind he and Tony were (and still are) very close. He would have listened to him.

The only thing that may have stopped this was the "collusion tactics" the owners perpetrated under Ueberroth.

Lip

Tragg
03-21-2010, 08:56 PM
Pete Vukovich was basically a one or two year wonder who in the long run wouldn't have made any difference,
He had several good years and would have helped a lot in 77 and perhaps in 81.
Hemond had to be creative for much of his career and I know he's your favorite and I like him too, so I'll leave it at that.

Frater Perdurabo
03-21-2010, 09:25 PM
I think it is completely ridiculous to give Hawk "credit" for the rebuilding project that Larry Himes instituted, just because he left the team in such bad shape that it got four straight high draft picks. Himes "lucked" into those high picks, but he also had the good sense to draft four sure-fire impact players: McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, Fernandez.

Giving Hawk any credit is like giving credit for cleaning the bathroom to the kid who vomits all over the floor, when it was the janitor who came in and cleaned up the mess.

doublem23
03-21-2010, 09:47 PM
It's always fun to play the "What if" game and in my opinion had Tony and Roland stayed the Sox would never have gone through the desolate period from 86-89.

Tony doesn't manage rebuilding teams, he would have insisted the Sox spend the money and bring in talent to win. And before you say "JR wouldn't have done it..." keep in mind he and Tony were (and still are) very close. He would have listened to him.

The only thing that may have stopped this was the "collusion tactics" the owners perpetrated under Ueberroth.

Lip

:rolling:

Tony manages juiced up roiders.

Lip Man 1
03-21-2010, 09:56 PM
That may be true but they are veteran juiced up roiders. Tony doesn't manage rebuilding teams.

Lip

Lip Man 1
03-21-2010, 10:01 PM
Tragg:

Hard to be of the opinion that he would have helped a lot in 1977 when he was still very wet behind the ears. You can ask if he was so ready to blossom why did Toronto let him go to the Cardinals where he did win 15 games I think in 79.

Lip

dickallen15
03-27-2010, 02:46 AM
It's always fun to play the "What if" game and in my opinion had Tony and Roland stayed the Sox would never have gone through the desolate period from 86-89.

Tony doesn't manage rebuilding teams, he would have insisted the Sox spend the money and bring in talent to win. And before you say "JR wouldn't have done it..." keep in mind he and Tony were (and still are) very close. He would have listened to him.

The only thing that may have stopped this was the "collusion tactics" the owners perpetrated under Ueberroth.

Lip

I really doubt it Lip. 1986 was going to be a disaster no matter who the GM was. As stated previously, two top pitchers, Burns and Seaver were going to give you nothing. Bob James blew up . Richard Dotson was coming off an injury and was horrid. Whoever was the GM was behind the eight ball with no minor league help, and a major league roster that was cooked. Also from an very knowledable inside source, the White Sox weren't in a position to take on much money, even though salaries in those days were nothing compared to what they are now. Back in those days, White Sox shareholders were getting cash calls. If you read the Sun Times piece on JR's 25 years owning the Bulls, he stated one reason he bought the Bulls was because he thought he might have to get out of baseball because in his words it was a bad business and he wanted to stay in sports. No one is saying Hawk was a great GM, and if Roland had stayed, maybe 1986 would have been better, but not enough that it would have been significantly better, and there's probably a decent chance McDowell, Thomas, Ventura, Fernandez never play for the White Sox. Himes' 4 drafts made the White Sox for at least 5 seasons and probably more when you consider Frank Thomas alone. Of course Himes lucked out too. He wanted Mike Harkey, the Cubs took him so he picked up McDowell. He wanted Simeon HS Jeff Jackson, Philadelphia took him so he got Thomas. The Cubs, desperate for so many years for a 3B pass on College Player of the Decade Ventura and the Sox grab him with the next pick. Fernandez had previously been drafted by Milwaukee I believe, but didn't sign, making him available for the White Sox. How it turned out was probably the best case scenerio for the White Sox.

TomBradley72
03-27-2010, 10:18 AM
I'm surprised this is even up for debate:

Roland Hemond

Built the 1972 and 1977 White Sox teams on chewing gum and $127.17 of cash from Allyn/Veeck...through very shrewd trades and misc. pick ups.
Built the 1983 Division Championship team only 2 years after finally having an owner with some money to compete.
In his LAST season, the team went 85-77, their 5th (after '72, '77, '83 and '82) best record from 1968-1989
Universally beloved and respected around major league baseball
Unfair to speculate on how the '86 White Sox would have performed since he did not have the chance to "re tool" in the offseason...that was Hawk's job.
Ken Harrelson (as a GM)

About as much wreckage as someone can cause in a single season, with most of these moves made in his first few months on the job:

Signed cast offs like Steve Carlton, George Foster
Put Fisk in Left Field so Joel Skinner (.201 BA) could get playing time (keep in mind, Fisk was coming off a 37 hr-107 rbi season)
Orchestrated the embarassment of the Billy Martin rumors/near signing, regardless of your opinion on LaRussa...the guy led the WSox to their first post season in 24 years, and was coming off an 85 win season.
Fired Dave Dombrowski
Traded away Bobby Bonilla for Jose Deleon
Did it all work out in the (very) long run, once Himes came in a drafted well, built the 1990-94 White Sox? Yes...but for those of us who had to live through the horrible treatment of LaRussa, Hemond, Fisk, etc., then endure 1986, 87, 88, and 89 (some of worst years along with 1968-70, 1978-1980) it was a pretty high price to pay.

Hawk was a complete buffoon as GM. Any favorable comparison to one of the most respected leaders in the history of the franchise, Roland Hemond is a complete insult.

dickallen15
03-27-2010, 10:35 AM
I'm surprised this is even up for debate:





Roland Hemond
Built the 1972 and 1977 White Sox teams on chewing gum and $127.17 of cash from Allyn/Veeck...through very shrewd trades and misc. pick ups.
Built the 1983 Division Championship team only 2 years after finally having an owner with some money to compete.
In his LAST season, the team went 85-77, their 5th (after '72, '77, '83 and '82) best record from 1968-1989
Universally beloved and respected around major league baseball
Unfair to speculate on how the '86 White Sox would have performed since he did not have the chance to "re tool" in the offseason...that was Hawk's job.
Ken Harrelson (as a GM)





About as much wreckage as someone can cause in a single season, with most of these moves made in his first few months on the job:
Signed cast offs like Steve Carlton, George Foster
Put Fisk in Left Field so Joel Skinner (.201 BA) could get playing time (keep in mind, Fisk was coming off a 37 hr-107 rbi season)
Orchestrated the embarassment of the Billy Martin rumors/near signing, regardless of your opinion on LaRussa...the guy led the WSox to their first post season in 24 years, and was coming off an 85 win season.
Fired Dave Dombrowski
Traded away Bobby Bonilla for Jose Deleon
Did it all work out in the (very) long run, once Himes came in a drafted well, built the 1990-94 White Sox? Yes...but for those of us who had to live through the horrible treatment of LaRussa, Hemond, Fisk, etc., then endure 1986, 87, 88, and 89 (some of worst years along with 1968-70, 1978-1980) it was a pretty high price to pay.

Hawk was a complete buffoon as GM. Any favorable comparison to one of the most respected leaders in the history of the franchise, Roland Hemond is a complete insult.

First off its not really the argument. My argument was canning Hemond at that time and having Hawk around one year with Himes succeeding him was a good thing in the long run for the White Sox. The White Sox were going to be bad from 86-89 pretty much regardless. A couple of things, first when Hawk put Fisk in LF, it wasn't the first time he was placed there. Check it out. And it was only 29 games. What harm did signing Carlton and Foster have? Didn't Hemond sign Sparky Lyle and Jim Kern? Hawk has said he signed Carlton to help tudor younger pitchers. By the time he signed, the team was out of it, and look at the numbers, he didn't pitch that badly. As far as the team coming off an 85 win season, yes they were, but that was with Seaver winning 15, Burns winning 15, James lights out. That wasn't happening in 1986. As for Dombrowski, if the Sox kept Dombrowski and made him the GM instead of Himes, do you really think they would have been better off from 1987 on? I don't. The system had no talent. Hemond was good but the minor league system killed him. They brought up nothing but garbage in 1984 and 1985. It led to his demise, and it at that point didn't even take into account drafting Kurt Brown instead of Barry Bonds. As for trading Bonilla, Hawk picked him up in the rule 5. DeLeon wasn't a bad pitcher, and he eventually became Lance Johnson. No one is arguing Hawk was a great GM. I just think he wasn't as bad as most think, Ivan Calderon was another guy he picked up for almost nothing, plus it was a blessing. The team needed to be rebuilt and Himes and Goldis were perfect for that. Once they built it, JR brought in Schueler, who actually was pretty decent for several years until he got ultra conservitive. While Hemond was a better GM than Hawk, at that time, with the state of the organization Hawk + Himes> Hemond. Sorry, Roland's a nice guy, but he couldn't match Himes drafts and if Hemond had the Sox 5 or 6 games better in 1986, McDowell might not even have been available to draft.

Lip Man 1
03-27-2010, 12:27 PM
Tom:

Well written piece. Hawk was a disaster and he knew it, that's why he left.

In fairness as I said earlier, it wasn't all his doing, he was prodded into it by JR and EE and they both later publicly admitted they were very wrong for putting him in that position in the first place.

Probably the worst thing about all this was the way it was handled. Roland told me (and I've never published this before) that he was asked to see ownership during the final road trip of the season which is why he wasn't with the team. After speaking with them, he and JR walked out to where Roland's car was. They wanted Roland to talk about the season (1985) and his off season plans.

His "discussion" apparently took longer than expected because while Roland and JR were talking, Hawk pulled up and got out apparently to have his "discusiion."

Roland said right then he knew and it was a very unprofessional and awkward situation.

To say Hawk was as good a GM as Roland is pap nonsense... as far as speculating about the future it's just that, a guess. There's no right or wrong.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
03-27-2010, 12:34 PM
First off its not really the argument. My argument was canning Hemond at that time and having Hawk around one year with Himes succeeding him was a good thing in the long run for the White Sox. The White Sox were going to be bad from 86-89 pretty much regardless. A couple of things, first when Hawk put Fisk in LF, it wasn't the first time he was placed there. Check it out. And it was only 29 games. What harm did signing Carlton and Foster have? Didn't Hemond sign Sparky Lyle and Jim Kern? Hawk has said he signed Carlton to help tudor younger pitchers. By the time he signed, the team was out of it, and look at the numbers, he didn't pitch that badly. As far as the team coming off an 85 win season, yes they were, but that was with Seaver winning 15, Burns winning 15, James lights out. That wasn't happening in 1986. As for Dombrowski, if the Sox kept Dombrowski and made him the GM instead of Himes, do you really think they would have been better off from 1987 on? I don't. The system had no talent. Hemond was good but the minor league system killed him. They brought up nothing but garbage in 1984 and 1985. It led to his demise, and it at that point didn't even take into account drafting Kurt Brown instead of Barry Bonds. As for trading Bonilla, Hawk picked him up in the rule 5. DeLeon wasn't a bad pitcher, and he eventually became Lance Johnson. No one is arguing Hawk was a great GM. I just think he wasn't as bad as most think, Ivan Calderon was another guy he picked up for almost nothing, plus it was a blessing. The team needed to be rebuilt and Himes and Goldis were perfect for that. Once they built it, JR brought in Schueler, who actually was pretty decent for several years until he got ultra conservitive. While Hemond was a better GM than Hawk, at that time, with the state of the organization Hawk + Himes> Hemond. Sorry, Roland's a nice guy, but he couldn't match Himes drafts and if Hemond had the Sox 5 or 6 games better in 1986, McDowell might not even have been available to draft.

Roland was going to get fired at some point, but until Hawk came in it looked like his heir apparent was going to be David Dombrowski who built the Expos system of the early 1990s that produced guys like Alou, Walker and a few others. He also built the Marlins system that won a championship (ok, BOUGHT a championship) within five years of their existence and then managed to turn that talent around for another champion in '03. I think Dombrowski would have done a very good job with the White Sox.

TomBradley72
03-27-2010, 02:02 PM
First off its not really the argument. My argument was canning Hemond at that time and having Hawk around one year with Himes succeeding him was a good thing in the long run for the White Sox. The White Sox were going to be bad from 86-89 pretty much regardless. A couple of things, first when Hawk put Fisk in LF, it wasn't the first time he was placed there. Check it out. And it was only 29 games. What harm did signing Carlton and Foster have? Didn't Hemond sign Sparky Lyle and Jim Kern? Hawk has said he signed Carlton to help tudor younger pitchers. By the time he signed, the team was out of it, and look at the numbers, he didn't pitch that badly. As far as the team coming off an 85 win season, yes they were, but that was with Seaver winning 15, Burns winning 15, James lights out. That wasn't happening in 1986. As for Dombrowski, if the Sox kept Dombrowski and made him the GM instead of Himes, do you really think they would have been better off from 1987 on? I don't. The system had no talent. Hemond was good but the minor league system killed him. They brought up nothing but garbage in 1984 and 1985. It led to his demise, and it at that point didn't even take into account drafting Kurt Brown instead of Barry Bonds. As for trading Bonilla, Hawk picked him up in the rule 5. DeLeon wasn't a bad pitcher, and he eventually became Lance Johnson. No one is arguing Hawk was a great GM. I just think he wasn't as bad as most think, Ivan Calderon was another guy he picked up for almost nothing, plus it was a blessing. The team needed to be rebuilt and Himes and Goldis were perfect for that. Once they built it, JR brought in Schueler, who actually was pretty decent for several years until he got ultra conservitive. While Hemond was a better GM than Hawk, at that time, with the state of the organization Hawk + Himes> Hemond. Sorry, Roland's a nice guy, but he couldn't match Himes drafts and if Hemond had the Sox 5 or 6 games better in 1986, McDowell might not even have been available to draft.

I can agree with your point that 1986 would have been a rough season under any circumstances, but I can't see how they were better off, short or long term, with Harrelson replacing Hemond. The phrase "Roland's a nice guy" is another insult to his years of service as GM.

Ken Harrelson was the WORST GM in the history of the White Sox franchise.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/chicago_white_sox_general_managers.shtml

tick53
03-27-2010, 02:03 PM
I don't know how old you are so I don't know if you were following the White Sox in 1986, but I can tell you if these message boards were around, they would have been calling for LaRussa's head back then. He used to get booed worse than Jerry Manuel ever did when he came out to the mound.

LaRussa has had a good career. Would he really have made much of a difference for the White Sox? They were going into a total rebuilding mode, and as I stated before, even if he was or is the genius many believe, he certainly wasn't going to lead the White Sox at that time to a championship and if he is worth a few more wins every year, Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez may have never worn a White Sox uniform. Same with Jack McDowell. There's no guarantee if Hemond had stayed, his people would have picked him.

What happened happened. The White Sox built on it. Himes and Goldis did a great job rebuilding. Some of the guys Hawk traded for played a role in getting better as well. I just fail to see how its the huge disaster people have made it out to be. His tenure certainly wasn't a success, and maybe it would have been a disaster had he stayed around longer, but that didn't happen.

I've been a Sox fan since 1964 at the age of 11 so that gives you some idea of my age. You do bring up some good points regarding Black Jack, Ventura and Thomas. They may have never worn a Sox uniform. It took a lot of rebuilding years for the team to win a World Series and Frank Thomas was the only participant in that event. I remember the boos that LaRussa received back then and I may have been down on the guy myself. It was not the first nor will it be the last time a MLB manager has been booed. Here's another bit of trivia. Ken Harrelson traded Bobby Bonilla for Jose DeLeon. He could have been a player to build on. Bobby was pretty successful as well.

dickallen15
03-27-2010, 02:25 PM
I've been a Sox fan since 1964 at the age of 11 so that gives you some idea of my age. You do bring up some good points regarding Black Jack, Ventura and Thomas. They may have never worn a Sox uniform. It took a lot of rebuilding years for the team to win a World Series and Frank Thomas was the only participant in that event. I remember the boos that LaRussa received back then and I may have been down on the guy myself. It was not the first nor will it be the last time a MLB manager has been booed. Here's another bit of trivia. Ken Harrelson traded Bobby Bonilla for Jose DeLeon. He could have been a player to build on. Bobby was pretty successful as well.

Again, Ken Harrelson also selected Bobby Bonilla in the rule 5 draft. There's no guarantee Roland or anyone else would have. Bonilla may have been a difference maker that would have netted the Sox a few more wins but perhaps cost them a shot at Ventura or Thomas or Fernandez. DeLeon was eventually traded for Lance Johnson who played a big role in the White Sox becoming relevant again. I'm not saying Hawk was the greatest GM in the world, all I'm saying is his reign hardly was the disaster many claim it was and it really didn't set back the team, in fact in may have set up the team because of those drafts.

Lip Man 1
03-27-2010, 06:46 PM
So losing pays off in the long run is that what you're saying? (i.e. Because of the draft picks the Sox got?)

They caught lightening in a bottle...never the way to build a successful franchise over the long term. Those picks worked out big time for the Sox, far more, even high picks, fall flat on their faces.

No thanks.

Lip

dickallen15
03-27-2010, 07:31 PM
So losing pays off in the long run is that what you're saying? (i.e. Because of the draft picks the Sox got?)

They caught lightening in a bottle...never the way to build a successful franchise over the long term. Those picks worked out big time for the Sox, far more, even high picks, fall flat on their faces.

No thanks.

Lip


So even with 20/20 hindsight, you would rather have had Hemond running the team until he retired even though his people couldn't draft worth anything? That's beyond silly. If you think Hawk screwed the White Sox out of any chance of winning from 86-90 I think you're mistaken. The team was toast. Roland screwed them out of it. Hawk didn't exactly help them win, but the way it worked out was just about the best case scenerio for the Sox. Roland was relieved of his duties because there was nothing down on the farm. My original post was in reference to Hawk's reign as the GM being a disaster and setting the team back. The fact is drafting well IS the way to build a successful franchise over the long term, especially if your an organization that generally doesn't sign big name free agents and hasn't given another team's FA more than $20 million since December 1996.

Roland had a nice run, but with Hawk fleeing, Larry Himes and Al Goldis were golden. I really doubt Roland could have matched him. Roland is a great guy and was a solid GM, but the White Sox in the long run benefitting from his departure at that time. He didn't draft well and the team needed to be rebuilt.

Lip Man 1
03-27-2010, 09:52 PM
Dick:

So based on your post I assume you prefer the Tampa Bay approach...suck for ten years, draw zero fans in order to get high draft picks and play very well for a few years. (Then be right back in the crapper when those draft picks leave as free agents.)

The Sox could not and would not survive that type of performance. The ballpark would be a ghost town and rightfully so.

Your philosophy may work in a small market. Chicago is not a small market. I stand by my opinion that the Sox caught lightening in a bottle with those draft picks.

If they didn't work out we'd be saying the same stuff about 1990-1995 that we were saying about 1986 through 1989 assuming the Sox would have remained in Chicago.

Lip

slavko
03-27-2010, 11:21 PM
Tom:

Well written piece. Hawk was a disaster and he knew it, that's why he left.

Lip

Except for revisionist history, any functioning person would believe this today. He wasn't even talking to reporters close to the end of one season GM'ing. Not the man for the job and proved it in a flash. The good news is if he was here for 2 years he could have done even more damage.

Lip Man 1
03-28-2010, 12:26 AM
Slavko:

I agree which makes Dick's "defense" of him even more perplexing. "Well he wasn't that bad of a G.M. he only was awful... not brutal, terrible or idiotic." If his basis for this belief is that "draft choices makes great teams" well had Hawk stuck around, the Sox would have been the Tampa of the late 80's / early 90's.

They would have had boatloads of high picks because they would have sucked on the field.

Oh well...to each his own I guess.

Yet Hemond who some consider a "bad" G.M. had a winning season in 85, and was only two years removed from winning 99 games and a division title. Oh by the way, after the Sox canned him for Hawk in a very unprofessional way, he went on to the Orioles, where this washed up has-been won his 3rd Executive of the year Award.

So much for that myth eh?

Lip

dickallen15
03-28-2010, 07:41 AM
Dick:

So based on your post I assume you prefer the Tampa Bay approach...suck for ten years, draw zero fans in order to get high draft picks and play very well for a few years. (Then be right back in the crapper when those draft picks leave as free agents.)

The Sox could not and would not survive that type of performance. The ballpark would be a ghost town and rightfully so.

Your philosophy may work in a small market. Chicago is not a small market. I stand by my opinion that the Sox caught lightening in a bottle with those draft picks.

If they didn't work out we'd be saying the same stuff about 1990-1995 that we were saying about 1986 through 1989 assuming the Sox would have remained in Chicago.

Lip

You're saying "if they didn't work out" yet going back and re-writing history telling us the Sox wouldn't have been bad from 86-89 in Roland Hemond was the GM. That's just wrong. They had nothing in the minor leagues. They weren't drawing. The owners were getting cash calls. They weren't going to up payroll. Hawk was there for one season. It didn't go well, but it didn't set the team back. They were going to be bad for a while, and with Hawk leaving and Himes coming in, it was a better situation than trying to patch stuff together to be good enough to win 78 games. It worked out a lot better than it would have as they set up their franchise to start really contending when the new park was ready to go and they surprising "arrived" one year early in one of the most fun seasons ever to be a White Sox fan in 1990. Those weren't the days of wild cards and 5 team divisions. You had to be special to make the playoffs. 2 teams made it in each league. To seriously think the White Sox from 86-89 didn't need much to contend would be looney.

Maybe it would have been a total disaster had Hawk stuck around. But he didn't, and as I said he did acquire players that helped the White Sox win and some that helped the Sox win themselves and were traded for guys that helped the Sox win some more like Ivan Calderon.

Besides, I'm not saying Hawk was a better GM than Hemond. Not at all. He just didn't set the Sox back for a decade like some believe and he becoming the GM and then exiting, as it turns out, probably was a blessing considering they were re-building and needed to whether you chose to believe it or not, and hadn't drafted well for a while.

If Roland makes no mistakes, how do you explain the 1985 draft, Kurt Brown over Barry Bonds? In fact, the of the last 10 first round draft picks under Roland's watch, 4 in the top 9, the only 2 players that played significant time with the Sox were Karkovice and Daryl Boston, so I'm pretty sure not only the late 80's would have been bad, but when fans abandoned the White Sox after the strike, without any farm help, you know, Ventura, Thomas, Bere, Fernandez, McDowell, the team probably would have been horrid into the 90s.

And yes, I am of the feeling going 72-90 and drafting Jack McDowell is better than going 76-86 and drafting some HS kid who will never sniff AAA. Roland GM'd the Orioles for 8 seasons and they never won 90 games. They lost 90 games several times. I don't see where that couldn't have happened had he stayed with the Sox. Without Thomas and Ventura and McDowell where would they ever have made the income to afford expensive players?

TomBradley72
03-28-2010, 08:59 AM
You're saying "if they didn't work out" yet going back and re-writing history telling us the Sox wouldn't have been bad from 86-89 in Roland Hemond was the GM. That's just wrong. They had nothing in the minor leagues. They weren't drawing. The owners were getting cash calls. They weren't going to up payroll. Hawk was there for one season. It didn't go well, but it didn't set the team back. They were going to be bad for a while, and with Hawk leaving and Himes coming in, it was a better situation than trying to patch stuff together to be good enough to win 78 games. It worked out a lot better than it would have as they set up their franchise to start really contending when the new park was ready to go and they surprising "arrived" one year early in one of the most fun seasons ever to be a White Sox fan in 1990. Those weren't the days of wild cards and 5 team divisions. You had to be special to make the playoffs. 2 teams made it in each league. To seriously think the White Sox from 86-89 didn't need much to contend would be looney.

Maybe it would have been a total disaster had Hawk stuck around. But he didn't, and as I said he did acquire players that helped the White Sox win and some that helped the Sox win themselves and were traded for guys that helped the Sox win some more like Ivan Calderon.

Besides, I'm not saying Hawk was a better GM than Hemond. Not at all. He just didn't set the Sox back for a decade like some believe and he becoming the GM and then exiting, as it turns out, probably was a blessing considering they were re-building and needed to whether you chose to believe it or not, and hadn't drafted well for a while.

If Roland makes no mistakes, how do you explain the 1985 draft, Kurt Brown over Barry Bonds? In fact, the of the last 10 first round draft picks under Roland's watch, 4 in the top 9, the only 2 players that played significant time with the Sox were Karkovice and Daryl Boston, so I'm pretty sure not only the late 80's would have been bad, but when fans abandoned the White Sox after the strike, without any farm help, you know, Ventura, Thomas, Bere, Fernandez, McDowell, the team probably would have been horrid into the 90s.

And yes, I am of the feeling going 72-90 and drafting Jack McDowell is better than going 76-86 and drafting some HS kid who will never sniff AAA. Roland GM'd the Orioles for 8 seasons and they never won 90 games. They lost 90 games several times. I don't see where that couldn't have happened had he stayed with the Sox. Without Thomas and Ventura and McDowell where would they ever have made the income to afford expensive players?

The White Sox drew 1,669,888 in 1985. This was the 3rd highest attendance in the history of the franchise at the at point. They would not draw better until 1990, the last year of Comiskey Park.

So after their 4th best record on the playing field from 1968-1989, and the 3rd highest attendance in the history of the franchise, Hemond is tanked for the buffoon, soon followed by LaRussa and Dombrowski, in a circus atmosphere where Hawk as desperate to get back to the broadcast booth. But hey, it only took them 4 years to recover....

Hemond was a mojor league GM for decades (and Larussa has been fully employed in Oakland and St. Louis for the last 25 years as well), while Himes had one more brief stint with the Cubs and Hawk has permanently stayed where he belongs...behind the mike. The employment records of everyone involved are an indication of their overall abilities as a GM or manager.

dickallen15
03-28-2010, 09:09 AM
The White Sox drew 1,669,888 in 1985. This was the 3rd highest attendance in the history of the franchise at the at point. They would not draw better until 1990, the last year of Comiskey Park.

So after their 4th best record on the playing field from 1968-1989, and the 3rd highest attendance in the history of the franchise, Hemond is tanked for the buffoon, soon followed by LaRussa and Dombrowski, in a circus atmosphere where Hawk as desperate to get back to the broadcast booth. But hey, it only took them 4 years to recover....

Hemond was a mojor league GM for decades (and Larussa has been fully employed in Oakland and St. Louis for the last 25 years as well), while Himes had one more brief stint with the Cubs and Hawk has permanently stayed where he belongs...behind the mike. The employment records of everyone involved are an indication of their overall abilities as a GM or manager.


How in the world could you not appreciate the job Himes did for the White Sox?

The damage was already done when Hawk took over. Its one reason he got the job. He wasn't very good, but he did not set the White Sox back 4 years. That is insane to think of it in that context. Again, look at the roster. No matter who the GM was 1986 was going to be a disaster and then Hawk was gone and JR and gang saw a total rebuild was the only way to get their situation straightened out. It wasn't going to work piecemeal anymore. Himes had 4 unreal #1 picks, won 94 games with a payroll under $10 million and was shown the door. And if you go by track records in Roland's 8 seasons in Baltimore the Orioles were a combined 58 games under .500. So where would that indicate he would have led the 1986-1989 White Sox to the promised land? Roland had a very nice career, maybe he didn't "deserve" to be let go by JR, but it really worked out for the best as it turned out.

Brian26
03-28-2010, 10:49 AM
Except for revisionist history, any functioning person would believe this today.

I find there's just as much, if not more, pro-Hemond revisionist history as their is pro-Hawk. As with everything in life, the truth finds itself somewhere in the middle.

Hawk was not as bad of a GM as many people claim, but that year on his resume lends itself to attempts at humor by some fans and many carpet-bagging media buffoons, so it has taken on a life of its own as time passes.

Hemond's tenure was marked by much greater failure than success, but he seems to get a pass due to his kind nature and the built-in excuse of lack of resources from ownership.

The fact is, nobody knows what would have happened in '87 and beyond if Hawk would have stuck with it. The Sox probably wouldn't have won a division title anytime soon though with the A's powerhouse starting to coming to fruition.

TomBradley72
03-28-2010, 11:03 AM
How in the world could you not appreciate the job Himes did for the White Sox?

The damage was already done when Hawk took over. Its one reason he got the job. He wasn't very good, but he did not set the White Sox back 4 years. That is insane to think of it in that context. Again, look at the roster. No matter who the GM was 1986 was going to be a disaster and then Hawk was gone and JR and gang saw a total rebuild was the only way to get their situation straightened out. It wasn't going to work piecemeal anymore. Himes had 4 unreal #1 picks, won 94 games with a payroll under $10 million and was shown the door. And if you go by track records in Roland's 8 seasons in Baltimore the Orioles were a combined 58 games under .500. So where would that indicate he would have led the 1986-1989 White Sox to the promised land? Roland had a very nice career, maybe he didn't "deserve" to be let go by JR, but it really worked out for the best as it turned out.

I do have alot of respect for what Himes did...I think comparing his tenure to Hemond's is apples and oranges. From 1981-1985 the White Sox were "going for it" vs. 1987-1990 which was a complete "rebuild with youth" mode. Measured by attendance/revenue or wins/losses Hemond was much more successful, but that would be very unfair to Himes due to the different circumstances. We'll never know what Hemond could have accomplished under the 1987-1990 circumstances. I do agree with your overall assessment of the White Sox minor league system in the mid-80's, but I don't consider that an indictment of Hemond's abilities, KW had the same situation 7-8 years into his tenure as GM until the turnaround started a few years ago.

tick53
03-28-2010, 11:08 AM
:hawk

" I Lovvvve Threads About The Old Hawkeroo ".

What's past has past. Let's get ready for another great season of Chicago White Sox baseball. Our common thread in this forum is our deep down love of our team. Go Sox!

Lip Man 1
03-28-2010, 12:32 PM
Brian:

I can only speak for myself but my admiration ofr Roland isn't based on because he's a nice guy, or treats WSI well. It's the bottom line, and that bottom line is three MLB Executive of the year Awards and a litany of deals that kept this franchise going. Hawk couldn't put together a list like this in my opinion if he had 20 years as a G.M.:

Roland Hemondís Best Trades: (in chronological order...)

1. November 30, 1971: White Sox send Ken Berry, Syd OíBrien and Billy Wynne to California for catcher Tom Egan, starting pitcher Tom Bradley and outfielder Jay Johnstone. (Authorís Note: Bradley would win fifteen games with a sub three ERA in both 1971 and 1972. Egan served as a very good backup to Ed Herrmann and Johnstone added speed, pinch hitting abilities and a crazy character to keep the clubhouse relaxed.)

2. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Tommy John and Steve Huntz to Los Angeles for first baseman Dick Allen. (Authorís Note: The trade that saved the franchise. Allen won the MVP award in 1972 leading the Sox to a near division championship. His ability to hit for power and average was unmatched on the South Side for years. Three time All Star.)

3. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Rich McKinney to the Yankees for starting pitcher Stan Bahnsen. (Authorís Note: Bahnsen would win 54 games in three and a half seasons in Chicago including 21 in 1972.)

4. November 19, 1972: White Sox send Tom Bradley to San Francisco for outfielder Ken Henderson and pitcher Steve Stone. (Authorís Note: Henderson was a Gold Glove winning, power hitting center fielder while Stone added depth to the pitching staff. Bradley never regained the form that he showed with the Sox and was out of baseball by 1975.)

5. August 14, 1973: White Sox acquire starting pitcher Jim Kaat on waivers from Minnesota. (Authorís Note: Kaat was a two time twenty game winner for the Sox in 1974 and 1975. Made the All Star Team in 1975. Won 45 games in two and a quarter years in Chicago.

6. June 15, 1975: White Sox send pitchers Stan Bahnsen and ĎSkipí Pitlock to Oakland for outfielder Chet Lemon and pitcher Dave Hamilton. (Authorís Note: Lemon would turn into one of the top center fielders in baseball with the Sox making the All Star Team twice. Hamilton was a regular contributor to the 1977 White Sox team with four wins and nine saves.)

7. December 11, 1975: White Sox send third baseman Bill Melton and pitcher Steve Dunning to California for first baseman Jim Spencer and outfielder Morris Nettles. (Authorís Note: Melton had a bad back and had worn out his welcome getting into a shouting match in a Milwaukee hotel lobby with broadcaster Harry Caray. Spencer meanwhile won a Gold Glove for his defensive prowess in 1977 saving many errors. He also had 18 home runs and 69 RBIís for the South Side Hit Men, twice driving in eight runs in a game.)

8. April 4, 1977: White Sox send shortstop Bucky Dent to the Yankees for outfielder Oscar Gamble, pitchers LaMarr Hoyt and Bob Polinsky and cash.(Authorís Note: The deal was made because the Sox could not afford to resign Dent. Gamble blasted 31 home runs for the South Side Hit Men. Hoyt would become a very good starting pitcher winning the Cy Young Award after going 24-10 in 1983.)

9. July 10, 1979: White Sox send pitcher Jack Kucek to the Phillies for infielder Jim Morrison. (Authorís Note: When the Sox were being rebuilt in the early 80's Morrison provided stability and power at either second or third base. Had three seasons of double figure home run totals.)

10. December 12, 1980: White Sox send pitcher ĎTexí Wortham to Montreal for second baseman Tony Bernazard. (Authorís Note: Bernazard was a switch hitter with speed and the ability to hit to all fields. He was a good second baseman in his two and a half years with the Sox. Hemond then sent him to Seattle for Julio Cruz a move that crystalized the 1983 team.)

11. January 25, 1983: White Sox send pitchers Steve Trout and Warren Brusstar to the Cubs for infielders Scott Fletcher and Pat Tabler along with pitchers Dick Tidrow and Randy Martz. (Authorís Note: Perhaps Hemondís greatest deal. Roland used the free agent compensation rules that were in use at the time to inquire about getting Cubs future Hall Of Fame pitcher Ferguson Jenkins whom they left unprotected. Cubs G.M. Dallas Green got word of it and quickly made this deal. Part of it was the promise by Hemond that the Sox would not take Jenkins. Fletcher and Tidrow were important parts of the 1983 team. Tabler was then traded to Cleveland for Jerry Dybzinski adding another part to the club.)

12. January 20, 1984: White Sox select starting pitcher Tom Seaver from the free agent compensation pool. (Authorís Note: The future Hall Of Famer would win 32 games in two years with the Sox including his 300th beating the Yankees 4-1 on August 4, 1985.)

13. December 6, 1984: White Sox send pitcher LaMarr Hoyt and two minor leaguers to San Diego for pitchers Tim Lollar and Bill Long along with infielder/outfielder Luis Salazar and shortstop Ozzie Guillen. (Authorís Note: Hoyt would see his career quickly end after the 1985 season due to substance abuse. Lollar and Salazar helped the 1985 team to a winning record but Guillen would become the Rookie Of The Year and win a Gold Glove in 1990 along with becoming a two time All Star.)

Lip

dickallen15
03-28-2010, 12:55 PM
Brian:

I can only speak for myself but my admiration ofr Roland isn't based on because he's a nice guy, or treats WSI well. It's the bottom line, and that bottom line is three MLB Executive of the year Awards and a litany of deals that kept this franchise going. Hawk couldn't put together a list like this in my opinion if he had 20 years as a G.M.:

Roland Hemondís Best Trades: (in chronological order...)

1. November 30, 1971: White Sox send Ken Berry, Syd OíBrien and Billy Wynne to California for catcher Tom Egan, starting pitcher Tom Bradley and outfielder Jay Johnstone. (Authorís Note: Bradley would win fifteen games with a sub three ERA in both 1971 and 1972. Egan served as a very good backup to Ed Herrmann and Johnstone added speed, pinch hitting abilities and a crazy character to keep the clubhouse relaxed.)

2. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Tommy John and Steve Huntz to Los Angeles for first baseman Dick Allen. (Authorís Note: The trade that saved the franchise. Allen won the MVP award in 1972 leading the Sox to a near division championship. His ability to hit for power and average was unmatched on the South Side for years. Three time All Star.)

3. December 2, 1971: White Sox send Rich McKinney to the Yankees for starting pitcher Stan Bahnsen. (Authorís Note: Bahnsen would win 54 games in three and a half seasons in Chicago including 21 in 1972.)

4. November 19, 1972: White Sox send Tom Bradley to San Francisco for outfielder Ken Henderson and pitcher Steve Stone. (Authorís Note: Henderson was a Gold Glove winning, power hitting center fielder while Stone added depth to the pitching staff. Bradley never regained the form that he showed with the Sox and was out of baseball by 1975.)

5. August 14, 1973: White Sox acquire starting pitcher Jim Kaat on waivers from Minnesota. (Authorís Note: Kaat was a two time twenty game winner for the Sox in 1974 and 1975. Made the All Star Team in 1975. Won 45 games in two and a quarter years in Chicago.

6. June 15, 1975: White Sox send pitchers Stan Bahnsen and ĎSkipí Pitlock to Oakland for outfielder Chet Lemon and pitcher Dave Hamilton. (Authorís Note: Lemon would turn into one of the top center fielders in baseball with the Sox making the All Star Team twice. Hamilton was a regular contributor to the 1977 White Sox team with four wins and nine saves.)

7. December 11, 1975: White Sox send third baseman Bill Melton and pitcher Steve Dunning to California for first baseman Jim Spencer and outfielder Morris Nettles. (Authorís Note: Melton had a bad back and had worn out his welcome getting into a shouting match in a Milwaukee hotel lobby with broadcaster Harry Caray. Spencer meanwhile won a Gold Glove for his defensive prowess in 1977 saving many errors. He also had 18 home runs and 69 RBIís for the South Side Hit Men, twice driving in eight runs in a game.)

8. April 4, 1977: White Sox send shortstop Bucky Dent to the Yankees for outfielder Oscar Gamble, pitchers LaMarr Hoyt and Bob Polinsky and cash.(Authorís Note: The deal was made because the Sox could not afford to resign Dent. Gamble blasted 31 home runs for the South Side Hit Men. Hoyt would become a very good starting pitcher winning the Cy Young Award after going 24-10 in 1983.)

9. July 10, 1979: White Sox send pitcher Jack Kucek to the Phillies for infielder Jim Morrison. (Authorís Note: When the Sox were being rebuilt in the early 80's Morrison provided stability and power at either second or third base. Had three seasons of double figure home run totals.)

10. December 12, 1980: White Sox send pitcher ĎTexí Wortham to Montreal for second baseman Tony Bernazard. (Authorís Note: Bernazard was a switch hitter with speed and the ability to hit to all fields. He was a good second baseman in his two and a half years with the Sox. Hemond then sent him to Seattle for Julio Cruz a move that crystalized the 1983 team.)

11. January 25, 1983: White Sox send pitchers Steve Trout and Warren Brusstar to the Cubs for infielders Scott Fletcher and Pat Tabler along with pitchers Dick Tidrow and Randy Martz. (Authorís Note: Perhaps Hemondís greatest deal. Roland used the free agent compensation rules that were in use at the time to inquire about getting Cubs future Hall Of Fame pitcher Ferguson Jenkins whom they left unprotected. Cubs G.M. Dallas Green got word of it and quickly made this deal. Part of it was the promise by Hemond that the Sox would not take Jenkins. Fletcher and Tidrow were important parts of the 1983 team. Tabler was then traded to Cleveland for Jerry Dybzinski adding another part to the club.)

12. January 20, 1984: White Sox select starting pitcher Tom Seaver from the free agent compensation pool. (Authorís Note: The future Hall Of Famer would win 32 games in two years with the Sox including his 300th beating the Yankees 4-1 on August 4, 1985.)

13. December 6, 1984: White Sox send pitcher LaMarr Hoyt and two minor leaguers to San Diego for pitchers Tim Lollar and Bill Long along with infielder/outfielder Luis Salazar and shortstop Ozzie Guillen. (Authorís Note: Hoyt would see his career quickly end after the 1985 season due to substance abuse. Lollar and Salazar helped the 1985 team to a winning record but Guillen would become the Rookie Of The Year and win a Gold Glove in 1990 along with becoming a two time All Star.)

Lip

No one is saying Roland Hemond was terrible, just the opposite, but if Executive of the Year awards are the end all, Mark Shipiro with 2 the past 5 seasons should immediately be hired.

Roland was a fine GM, but sometimes moving on isn't the worst thing for either side. I'm sure he was hurt when he was let go, but he had some great experiences after leaving the Sox with Baltimore, the MLB office, helping build a team from scratch with AZ, back advising with the Sox, and then back to AZ.

Brian26
03-28-2010, 01:01 PM
I still don't think the trade with the Cubs before the '83 season deserves the praise it receives. Remember that Trout and Brusstar were very serviceable pieces for the Cubs in '83 and helped them win the NL East in '84.

In fact (and I know we've talked about this before, Mark), Rich Lindberg in "Who's on 3rd?" wrote at the time that nobody with the Sox knew how to hold a gun to the head of the Cubs organization.

Are you sure Jenkins, Trout and Brusstar wouldn't have helped the Sox more than Tidrow, Fletcher and Dybzinski? I would have loved to see Hemond try to parlay Jenkins and Trout (or Burns) to Texas for Buddy Bell. With Bell at 3rd and Vance Law still at SS, the team would have been even more difficult to deal with in the playoffs and would have formed the best defensive left side of the inflied in the AL.

Lip Man 1
03-28-2010, 01:07 PM
Interesting thought. That's assuming that the deal you suggest would have been enough to get him. I just can't see the Cubs under any circumstances letting Jenkins get away. They very very conscious of P.R. even back in the early years of ownership by the Tribune Company.

Dallas Green was quoted in the mainstream media as saying he was greatly relieved that the Cubs weren't put in the position of losing him.

What I know is that with the deal the Sox won 99 games in 1983. I would have loved to have gotten Bell and Ron Davis whom Roland was also trying very hard to get when Kern blew out his arm but it just didn't happen.

Lip

Brian26
03-28-2010, 01:10 PM
Interesting thought. That's assuming that the deal you suggest would have been enough to get him. I just can't see the Cubs under any circumstances letting Jenkins get away. They very very conscious of P.R. even back in the early years of ownership by the Tribune Company.

Dallas Green was quoted in the mainstream media as saying he was greatly relieved that the Cubs weren't put in the position of losing him.

What I know is that with the deal the Sox won 99 games in 1983. I would have loved to have gotten Bell and Ron Davis whom Roland was also trying very hard to get when Kern blew out his arm but it just didn't happen.

Lip

I think the other reliever Hemond was after at the time (either you or Hemond told me this) was Bill Caudill. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened with either Davis or Caudill on board.

Lip Man 1
03-28-2010, 02:15 PM
That's true, he was trying to get Caudill. Davis though proved over time to be the better of the two.

How do you know Roland?

Lip

Brian26
03-28-2010, 02:28 PM
That's true, he was trying to get Caudill. Davis though proved over time to be the better of the two.

How do you know Roland?

Lip

I don't know him personally. Just relaying a conversation from Soxfest a couple years back.

Tragg
03-28-2010, 02:42 PM
Lot of interesting stuff here.
Hemond made a few trades that provided super help but for an extreme short period of time....Dick Allen was the best player I've ever seen as a Sox for 1 year...but it was for 1 year; we traded away several productive years of Tommy John. Even so, that was a good deal.
But Gossage and Forrester for Zisk? Was 1977 that great that it was worth it?

What accelerated the rebuilding job was 2 great trades of veteran dumps: Floyd Bannister for Melido Perez Greg Hibbard; and Baines for Sosa and Wilson Alvarez. Two great trades by, I am guessing, Himes.

Brian26
03-28-2010, 02:53 PM
What accelerated the rebuilding job was 2 great trades of veteran dumps: Floyd Bannister for Melido Perez Greg Hibbard; and Baines for Sosa and Wilson Alvarez. Two great trades by, I am guessing, Himes.

Those were both Himes trades. Also, he traded Jose DeLeon for Lance Johnson, who would be a mainstay with the Sox for years to come.

Lip Man 1
03-28-2010, 02:55 PM
Tragg:

Bill Veeck made the deal for Zisk based on the fact that he knew he would not have been able to re-sign Gossage or Forster. Both were entering their free agent years in 1977.

So the point is that either way, trading them or keeping them it would have only been for one season. None of the three players were coming back to the Sox.

dickallen15
03-28-2010, 03:37 PM
Many years ago, I believe it was 1984, I was a kid adn we went to a Sox game in Ft. Lauderdale vs. the Yankees. I was sitting with my dad and brother and who winds up sitting next to us-----------Roland Hemond. He was very nice and pretty open answering anything you asked him. This was back in the days the Sox were endlessly looking for a 3B and Roland said they had something worked out to get Doug DeCinces, however the medical reports concerning his back squashed the deal. The other thing I remember vividly was how happy Roland was when the Sox won. He said that even in spring training, it was always nice to "beat George."

TDog
03-28-2010, 03:54 PM
...
What accelerated the rebuilding job was 2 great trades of veteran dumps: Floyd Bannister for Melido Perez Greg Hibbard; and Baines for Sosa and Wilson Alvarez. Two great trades by, I am guessing, Himes.

The Baines trade wasn't a particularly good trade unless you assume that Baines wouldn't have re-signed, which is an assumption that I don't believe you can make.

Not that this is relevant to the question of the thread. The only thing Ken Harrelson accomplished as GM was proving that he doesn't know as much about baseball as he professes to.

Roland Hemond, on the other hand, was a great baseball man and a great GM.

TommyJohn
03-28-2010, 04:33 PM
I don't mean to quibble, but weren't most of the deals in the late 70s made by Bill Veeck, not Hemond? I am speaking specifically of the Dent-for-Gamble deal. I always thought that was a Veeck deal all the way. In fact, Veeck wanted Ron Guidry as part of the deal, if I remember "Who's On 3rd?" correctly.

And how does he get credit for snatching Tom Seaver from the Mets? Seaver was simply left unprotected in the free agent compensation draft, and it was Einhorn and Reinsdorf who wanted him. So how is that a Hemond "deal"? I am asking in all honesty.

And lastly, I am tired of seeing references to Dick Allen as the "Savior" of the franchise. In what way? Yes, he had a brilliant MVP season in 1972, but a mere four years later he was gone, the Sox were broke and ticketed for Seattle and would have gone had it not been for John Allyn and Bill Veeck. So I don't understand calling Dick Allen the "Savior" of the franchise. He had a great year, undoubtedly one of the best individual years in the history of the team (and perhaps baseball, considering the improvement from 1970) but over the years I think it has been blown up to mythical, Hobbsian proportions. I may be guilty of that myself. Sure, the team enjoyed a three-year attendance spike with Allen in the lineup, but that still wasn't enough to stop them from bleeding money during that same period. The near-move at the end of 1975 was a result of financial losses that for the entirety of the Arthur/John Allyn ownerships had piled up to the breaking point.

Of course, my last point has nothing to do with this thread and can be debated endlessly as well, with no clear-cut answer.

TomBradley72
03-28-2010, 04:49 PM
Of course, my last point has nothing to do with this thread and can be debated endlessly as well, with no clear-cut answer.

Classic. :cool:

Lip Man 1
03-28-2010, 06:14 PM
TJ:

To try to answer your questions.

Yes most of the deals in the late 70's was made specifically by Bill not Roland. The two worked together but Bill had the final call, that's why he not Roland was given the 1977 Executive of the year Award.

Roland was the driving force behind the Seaver acquisition. He and Jerry Koosman went to talk to Tom to convince him to come to Chicago. Ironically then Koosman got traded to the Phillies!

Allen was called the "savior" of the Sox franchise by both Roland and Chuck Tanner numerous times publicy and privately. I can't speak for them but I assume their reasoning was that he was the catlyst to the start they put together in 1971. He capped the rebuilding effort and kept the franchise afloat for three or four more years before Veeck came along to take it over. Veeck (or his ilk) may not have been available had the Sox gone 'belly up' in 72 / 73, or 74 without Allen's impact. Consequently they may have been removed from Chicago. The question then would have been, like in 1989, would the American League simply give up the 2nd biggest market (at that time in the 70's) to the National League?

I've always said they would not have but who knows for sure.

Lip

TommyJohn
03-28-2010, 07:25 PM
TJ:

To try to answer your questions.

Yes most of the deals in the late 70's was made specifically by Bill not Roland. The two worked together but Bill had the final call, that's why he not Roland was given the 1977 Executive of the year Award.

Roland was the driving force behind the Seaver acquisition. He and Jerry Koosman went to talk to Tom to convince him to come to Chicago. Ironically then Koosman got traded to the Phillies!

Allen was called the "savior" of the Sox franchise by both Roland and Chuck Tanner numerous times publicy and privately. I can't speak for them but I assume their reasoning was that he was the catlyst to the start they put together in 1971. He capped the rebuilding effort and kept the franchise afloat for three or four more years before Veeck came along to take it over. Veeck (or his ilk) may not have been available had the Sox gone 'belly up' in 72 / 73, or 74 without Allen's impact. Consequently they may have been removed from Chicago. The question then would have been, like in 1989, would the American League simply give up the 2nd biggest market (at that time in the 70's) to the National League?

I've always said they would not have but who knows for sure.

LipThey were prepared to do so in 1988-Commissioner Peter Ueberroth (sp?) stated "Chicago has the Cubs" when the AL met to approve a possible transfer of the Sox to St. Pete.

In 1975 I know that Charlie Finley was going to shift the A's to Chicago after the Sox went to Seattle. He was even going to rename the A's the White Sox to keep the name. I have a photocopy of a Sun-Times sports page from that time-it is a cartoon drawing of a Sox player dragging a bag of equipment as he is walking across a map of the U.S., headed to Seattle. An Oakland player with his equipment is walking in the opposite direction, towards Chicago.

soxinem1
03-28-2010, 08:12 PM
How did Hawk set the team back as a GM? That team was destined to fail. Britt Burns never pitched again. Tom Seaver cried his way out of town. Hawk acquired Ivan Calderon who later became Tim Raines. He also picked up Bobby Bonilla in the rule 5, eventually trading him back to Pittsburgh (which is questionable, but again he got him for $20k) for Jose DeLeon, who eventually became the One Dog. He did can a bunch of scouts, but the scouts he canned just the year previously picked Kurt Brown with the 5th pick in the draft. Barry Bonds went next.

His feud that you claim he "picked" with Hrbek, was Hrbek being pissed off about Hawk using "grab some bench" after a strikeout. Wow, that's embarrassing to the White Sox organization. I think its more embarrassing a guy is complaining about the opponents announcer myself. Shouldn't he be playing not watching television?

I agree with most of your statements, except:

Britt Burns was not with the 1986 White Sox. He actually brought Neil Allen, Joe Cowley, and Ron Hassey in two separate trades. And those three were a few of the reasons that the 1986 White Sox did not lose 100 games.

I also agree that Roland Hemond was not strong in drafting, but his forte was trades. Besides, Hawk picked Grady Hall and started him in AAA. Hall never came close to MLB. How many future All-Stars did he pass up?

Larry Himes was the best White Sox GM in my lifetime, IMO. His drafts, trades, and scouts were some of the best in team history.

Lip Man 1
03-28-2010, 09:55 PM
Sox:

Don't know how old you are but it's pretty hard to say Himes was better than Williams.

In my lifetime given the restrictive circumstances he had to face Roland was the best G.M. I also give creedence to (in no particular order) Frank Lane, Ed Short and Kenny.

Lip

TDog
03-28-2010, 10:11 PM
.... Besides, Hawk picked Grady Hall and started him in AAA. Hall never came close to MLB. How many future All-Stars did he pass up?

Larry Himes was the best White Sox GM in my lifetime, IMO. His drafts, trades, and scouts were some of the best in team history.

I saw Grady Hall pitch in AAA in 1989. He wasn't that far from the major leagues, especially considering that his teammate, Jack Hardy, pitched in five games for the Sox before the end of the season. The 1989 standards weren't very high.

I hope Steve Stone talks about how Rollie Hemond saved his career sometime this season. I won't hear it because I don't get Sox broadcasts, but Rollie Hemond deserves more appreciation among Sox fans.

dickallen15
03-29-2010, 09:51 AM
Sox:

Don't know how old you are but it's pretty hard to say Himes was better than Williams.

In my lifetime given the restrictive circumstances he had to face Roland was the best G.M. I also give creedence to (in no particular order) Frank Lane, Ed Short and Kenny.

Lip

Himes also operated out of restrictive circumstances. He probably wasn't the answer long term, but during his time, he would have been tough for anyone to match.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2010, 11:47 AM
Dick:

When Hemond took over as player personnel director, the Sox were the worst team in baseball, the absolute worst. They were in the process of losing 106 games. They were worse than the expansion teams in Kansas City and Seattle / Milwaukee.

They had no fans (less than 500,000 for a season), no money and a ballpark that was falling apart. They had one foot in another city to boot.

I just don't think Himes had those degrees of handicaps in front of him. Sox attendance was better for him then Hemond when Roland took over and Himes had a year to a year and a half of grace before the moving talk started.

And yes you're right, Himes wasn't the long term answer since Reinsdorf hated him and said so when he fired him, although he was willing to work with him until the Mike Scott incident.

Lip

dickallen15
03-29-2010, 11:54 AM
Dick:

When Hemond took over as player personnel director, the Sox were the worst team in baseball, the absolute worst. They were in the process of losing 106 games. They were worse than the expansion teams in Kansas City and Seattle / Milwaukee.

They had no fans (less than 500,000 for a season), no money and a ballpark that was falling apart. They had one foot in another city to boot.

I just don't think Himes had those degrees of handicaps in front of him. Sox attendance was better for him then Hemond when Roland took over and Himes had a year to a year and a half of grace before the moving talk started.

And yes you're right, Himes wasn't the long term answer since Reinsdorf hated him and said so when he fired him, although he was willing to work with him until the Mike Scott incident.

Lip

So you're saying Hawk was a total disaster, set the franchise back for years to come, but then state Himes didn't have it so bad when he took over. That doesn't make sense. Larry Himes whether anyone likes him or not was a spectacular GM for the White Sox from 86-90.

FWIW, USA Today goes back to the 1988 season. Fro 1988,1989 and 1990 the White Sox had the lowest payroll in MLB each of those season.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2010, 04:16 PM
Dick:

I said Hawk was a disaster but I never said, feel free to check, that he "set the franchise back" for years to come.

He would have, had he hung around but he realized he was in over his head and got the hell out.

yes all things considered, in my opinion Himes had it light years better then Roland when they took over at their respective times for the reasons I stated.

And feel free to address my points regarding attendance for Himes when he took over vs. Hemond as well as the "moving" situation anytime you wish. Plus I'm sure the Sox payroll when Roland took over was near the bottom of MLB too, even though you were the one who brought that point into the discussion for some strange reason.

Lip

dickallen15
03-29-2010, 04:59 PM
Dick:

I said Hawk was a disaster but I never said, feel free to check, that he "set the franchise back" for years to come.

He would have, had he hung around but he realized he was in over his head and got the hell out.

yes all things considered, in my opinion Himes had it light years better then Roland when they took over at their respective times for the reasons I stated.

And feel free to address my points regarding attendance for Himes when he took over vs. Hemond as well as the "moving" situation anytime you wish. Plus I'm sure the Sox payroll when Roland took over was near the bottom of MLB too, even though you were the one who brought that point into the discussion for some strange reason.

Lip

If you have a horrid roster, no minor league help and resources to only be the lowest payroll in baseball for years, I don't see how the situation could have been much lower for Himes. He won 94 games with a $9 million payroll, again the lowest in baseball and was let go. If letting go of Hemond was unfair, what do you call what happened to Himes, or Gene Lamont who won 2 AL West titles in a row and was canned 30 games into 1995 and replaced by a total buffoon. It happens.
The Sox did well after Roland left. He did well after the Sox sent him packing. It worked out fine for both.

Lip Man 1
03-29-2010, 08:17 PM
Sometimes life is really ironic given what we've been discussing the past few pages.

I submit this not automatically to bash Larry Himes, who certainly had his share of good things with the Sox but to counter some of the 'revisionist talk' that is floating about concerning his legacy.

I called an individual tonight connected with the White Sox at that time to see if he'd be interested in an interview with WSI in the near future. (I'm very happy to say he is and we'll be talking in detail on April 13th) We shot the breeze for about an hour tonight just talking baseball and I was floored when said person told me about a deal that Himes turned down.

According to this person (and I'll certainly explore this is greater detail when we talk again) the Yankees offered BERNIE WILLIAMS and Hal Morris to the White Sox for Eric King and Steve Lyons.

Larry Himes said, no.

This person then said, 'now think about what our lineup would have been...Bernie would have been in the outfield with Lance Johnson and they would have covered more ground than anybody else in the game, Morris a good defensive first baseman and a line drive .290 hitter, would have been at one corner, Robin at the other corner and Frank would have been the DH. Think we would have won a few games?'

WOW.

I'm REALLY looking forward to this interview.

Lip

mzh
03-29-2010, 08:23 PM
Sometimes life is really ironic given what we've been discussing the past few pages.

I submit this not automatically to bash Larry Himes, who certainly had his share of good things with the Sox but to counter some of the 'revisionist talk' that is floating about concerning his legacy.

I called an individual tonight connected with the White Sox at that time to see if he'd be interested in an interview with WSI in the near future. (I'm very happy to say he is and we'll be talking in detail on April 13th) We shot the breeze for about an hour tonight just talking baseball and I was floored when said person told me about a deal that Himes turned down.

According to this person (and I'll certainly explore this is greater detail when we talk again) the Yankees offered BERNIE WILLIAMS and Hal Morris to the White Sox for Eric King and Steve Lyons.

Larry Himes said, no.

This person then said, 'now think about what our lineup would have been...Bernie would have been in the outfield with Lance Johnson and they would have covered more ground than anybody else in the game, Morris a good defensive first baseman and a line drive .290 hitter, would have been at one corner, Robin at the other corner and Frank would have been the DH. Think we would have won a few games?'

WOW.

I'm REALLY looking forward to this interview.

Lip
Wow...:whiner:

So at that point Williams had obviously not reached the Majors yet, but at the time was he a highly regarded prospect? Was Morris? Both had solid careers, but even if neither were projected to do what they ended up doing it's not like King and Lyons were exactly cornerstones of the franchise...

Brian26
03-29-2010, 08:43 PM
According to this person (and I'll certainly explore this is greater detail when we talk again) the Yankees offered BERNIE WILLIAMS and Hal Morris to the White Sox for Eric King and Steve Lyons.

Since King was dealt after the 1990 season, this deal would have happened either in '89 or early '90. I'm guessing it was talked about in early '90 when King got off to such a great start.

Bernie didn't really blossom until the mid 90s, and who knows what happens to him if he gets lost in the Sox organization. Would the Tim Raines trade still have happened? Would Raines have blocked Williams growth, or would Williams have taken over for Burks after the '93 season in RF?

Brian26
03-29-2010, 08:46 PM
Both had solid careers, but even if neither were projected to do what they ended up doing it's not like King and Lyons were exactly cornerstones of the franchise...

King got off to an 8-1 start in 1990.

Tragg
03-30-2010, 12:16 AM
Since King was dealt after the 1990 season,

For Cory Snyder, was it? We threw another decent picture in there as well.
i think that was Scheuler....he sure had a thing for Cory Snyder. Snyder was horrible.

HOnestly, if Lip is right that we turned that King and Lyons for Williams and Morris trade down, that is a major blunder of a 1/4 century.

Lip Man 1
03-30-2010, 01:00 AM
Tragg:

The other pitcher was Shawn Hilligas...no big deal.

I'm only saying what I was told tonight by an individual there at the time. When I do the actual interview on the 13th we'll get into it more. He also said another thing that totally floored me but I'll save that for the interview release.

The whole Cory Snyder situation simply didn't work and if you remember my interview with him for WSI (feel free to revisit it) he took responsibility for a lot of it but also explained simply and factually that there were issues between him and Walt Hriniak (Cory also named other Sox players who had issues with him). It got to the point where something had to give and that was Snyder, after three months in a Sox uniform.

The other thing that's important and that I don't know yet was WHEN this deal was offered. Was it before the 1990 season? during it? after it? King and Hilligas were dealt to Cleveland after the 1990 season remember.

And I may be wrong but wasn't Morris eventually sent to the Reds for Paul O'Neill? Morris had a fine career but O'Neill helped the Yankees win a ton of titles.

Yes, the King-Snyder deal was done by Schueler who took over when Himes was fired in mid September 1990. Schueler is the same GM who in my opinion cost the Sox post season spots in both 91 and 96 when he failed to do a damn thing at the trade deadline in each case.

One final note on the Larry Himes era and this is another stunner from the same source. At the trade deadline in 1990 Oakland got both Harold Baines AND Willie McGee despite the fact that the A's were above the Sox in the standings at the time. The person I spoke with tonight said he saw the news on ESPN and was shocked at how the Sox could have let both of those guys go through without blocking the moves. He said at almost the same time he was thinking this he got a call from Reinsdorf himself asking "what was going on?". My source said he told JR "I'm wondering the same thing..."

Again this is going to be a dynamite interview in my opinion when it comes out on the site.

Lip

TomBradley72
03-30-2010, 09:39 AM
Probably a whole new thread...but I agree with Lip's assessment of Schueler 1991-92.....lots of moves with a higher payroll that did not pay off (Raines' 1st year was not so great, + Steve Sax, Cory Snyder, George Bell, Beltre at SS after Guillen injury, replacing Torborg with Lemont- I was never a Lemont fan).

Sounds like Himes was like dealing with a "porcupine" and couldn't switch gears in pennant race mode (i.e. blocking waiver moves, passed on Mike Scott)...but the job he did in rebuilding was 1st rate..he deserved the chance to go from B-C...but might not have been possible if no FA's wanted to play for him.

TomBradley72
03-30-2010, 09:52 AM
Sometimes life is really ironic given what we've been discussing the past few pages.

I submit this not automatically to bash Larry Himes, who certainly had his share of good things with the Sox but to counter some of the 'revisionist talk' that is floating about concerning his legacy.

I called an individual tonight connected with the White Sox at that time to see if he'd be interested in an interview with WSI in the near future. (I'm very happy to say he is and we'll be talking in detail on April 13th) We shot the breeze for about an hour tonight just talking baseball and I was floored when said person told me about a deal that Himes turned down.

According to this person (and I'll certainly explore this is greater detail when we talk again) the Yankees offered BERNIE WILLIAMS and Hal Morris to the White Sox for Eric King and Steve Lyons.

Larry Himes said, no.

This person then said, 'now think about what our lineup would have been...Bernie would have been in the outfield with Lance Johnson and they would have covered more ground than anybody else in the game, Morris a good defensive first baseman and a line drive .290 hitter, would have been at one corner, Robin at the other corner and Frank would have been the DH. Think we would have won a few games?'

WOW.

I'm REALLY looking forward to this interview.

Lip

To be fair to Himes...King looked like the anchor of the rotation in the 1st half of 1990, he went 21-14 over 1989-90 at age 26...and Williams was a AA outfielder at the time....on the other hand, Hal Morris in 1989-90 was clearly going to be a great hitter...and just getting rid of Lyons would have been addition by subtraction.

dickallen15
03-30-2010, 10:17 AM
Tragg:

The other pitcher was Shawn Hilligas...no big deal.

I'm only saying what I was told tonight by an individual there at the time. When I do the actual interview on the 13th we'll get into it more. He also said another thing that totally floored me but I'll save that for the interview release.

The whole Cory Snyder situation simply didn't work and if you remember my interview with him for WSI (feel free to revisit it) he took responsibility for a lot of it but also explained simply and factually that there were issues between him and Walt Hriniak (Cory also named other Sox players who had issues with him). It got to the point where something had to give and that was Snyder, after three months in a Sox uniform.

The other thing that's important and that I don't know yet was WHEN this deal was offered. Was it before the 1990 season? during it? after it? King and Hilligas were dealt to Cleveland after the 1990 season remember.

And I may be wrong but wasn't Morris eventually sent to the Reds for Paul O'Neill? Morris had a fine career but O'Neill helped the Yankees win a ton of titles.

Yes, the King-Snyder deal was done by Schueler who took over when Himes was fired in mid September 1990. Schueler is the same GM who in my opinion cost the Sox post season spots in both 91 and 96 when he failed to do a damn thing at the trade deadline in each case.

One final note on the Larry Himes era and this is another stunner from the same source. At the trade deadline in 1990 Oakland got both Harold Baines AND Willie McGee despite the fact that the A's were above the Sox in the standings at the time. The person I spoke with tonight said he saw the news on ESPN and was shocked at how the Sox could have let both of those guys go through without blocking the moves. He said at almost the same time he was thinking this he got a call from Reinsdorf himself asking "what was going on?". My source said he told JR "I'm wondering the same thing..."

Again this is going to be a dynamite interview in my opinion when it comes out on the site.

Lip

JR was pissed? Look at the Oakland roster. Isn't this the same guy who said 7 years later when the team was 3 games out with 60 left to play anyone who thinks this team can beat Cleveland is crazy? Look at the the 1990 A's. They were pretty stacked. The Sox were 6.5 games out with a month to play. That year the Sox added Jerry Hairston, so he could get some service time for his pension AND Minnie Minoso who the commissioner eventually blocked. I guarantee you that wasn't a Larry Himes call. The Larry Himes hate is quite evident, however, I do recall back then with Hawk and Himes, the White Sox trying to pry Bernie Williams AWAY from the Yankees, but Steinbrenner finally listened to his baseball people. The bottom line is Larry Himes built a team who won 94 games with the lowest payroll in baseball. If Roland Hemond did that, you would be using it as proof he was the greatest GM of all time. Larry obviously didn't get along with many people, but his skills as the White Sox GM from when he took over until when he was let go, are pretty much unmatched. KW had a title but he took over a team in far better shape. I don't know if Larry was the kind of guy who could have built on what he had built, in fact I recall him saying he wouldn't have traded Calderon for Raines, but he was perfect for the Sox at that time.

Paulwny
03-30-2010, 12:10 PM
According to this person (and I'll certainly explore this is greater detail when we talk again) the Yankees offered BERNIE WILLIAMS and Hal Morris to the White Sox for Eric King and Steve Lyons.

Larry Himes said, no.
Lip


I had heard that this deal was all set and then one of the players (?) injured himself and this injury killed the deal.

Lip Man 1
03-30-2010, 12:10 PM
Point of Clarification Dick:

The trade deadline was July 31st, that left two months to go in the season at that point in time.

I don't know if JR was pissed or not, I'll explore that aspect when I actually do the interview.

Earlier in the thread I posted what I did as stated not to destroy Himes, I also wrote that he did some good things but this "revisionist history" needed to be steered back towards a more reasonable course.

Given what I was told last night in two cases those were serious mistakes in my opinion. In 1991 a still productive Baines would have been a huge addition to the club, that always seemed to be a hitter short in the early 90's. My source agreed that the club always lacked another big hitter. They needed one more bat to go with Robin and Frank.

It's going to be a good interview.

Oh by the way just to be clear, my source considered himself a friend of Himes, he didn't have any issues with him.

And Roland built a few pretty good teams himself with the Sox, including one you may have heard of...in 1983.

Lip

Lip Man 1
03-30-2010, 12:12 PM
Paul:

I've checked to see if any of the players involved were hurt around 1990 and couldn't find anything so I don't know.

My source last night didn't tell me the deal was killed by injury, he said that deal was killed when Himes said 'no.'

Take that for what it may be worth.

Lip

Lip Man 1
03-30-2010, 12:26 PM
Tom:

When you had Jack McDowell on the staff, a top ten pick, long term King was never going to be an anchor.

He had a sensational season but history showed it was his only one. (Granted Himes had no way of knowing that) I just find it hard to think that with a staff of McDowell, Hibbard and Perez, King was valued that highly by the front office.

I may see if I can track Himes down and see if he'd consider an interview. It would certainly be a fascinating one.

Lip

TomBradley72
03-30-2010, 12:31 PM
Tom:

When you had Jack McDowell on the staff, a top ten pick, long term King was never going to be an anchor.

He had a sensational season but history showed it was his only one. (Granted Himes had no way of knowing that) I just find it hard to think that with a staff of McDowell, Hibbard and Perez, King was valued that highly by the front office.

I may see if I can track Himes down and see if he'd consider an interview. It would certainly be a fascinating one.

Lip

I know what you mean, but at least in the first half of 1990...I think King was the ace...everyone knew McDowell would pass him...I always perceived King as the #2 ahead of Perez and Hibbard until something (injury?) took him off course.

Lip Man 1
03-30-2010, 12:50 PM
Tom:

For what it's worth King made the same number of starts for the Sox in 89 and 90 (25) and made about the same number for Cleveland (24) the next year. That doesn't seem to indicate an injury on his part anyway.

The Yankees couldn't have considered Lyons the "center piece" of the deal so I don't think if he had an injury that would have killed it.

Lip