PDA

View Full Version : Ok so I've changed my mind


tm1119
03-17-2010, 04:46 PM
Andruw Jones looks REALLY good. I was really hard on him before saying that he may not even make the roster and a bunch of other things. But after watching the last 2 ST games and looking at his #'s through out the spring Im now a believer that he can resurrect his career. I know, I know its only spring, but when you're talking about a guy who was once on the fast track to the HOF its a little different.

My prediction for Andruw's '10 season: .260/.330/.500 25 hr's and 80 RBI's while playing a good amount of OF.

Foulke You
03-17-2010, 04:51 PM
Andruw Jones looks REALLY good. I was really hard on him before saying that he may not even make the roster and a bunch of other things. But after watching the last 2 ST games and looking at his #'s through out the spring Im now a believer that he can resurrect his career. I know, I know its only spring, but when you're talking about a guy who was once on the fast track to the HOF its a little different.

My prediction for Andruw's '10 season: .260/.330/.500 25 hr's and 80 RBI's while playing a good amount of OF.
He has indeed looked really good this Spring and I like his approach at the plate. It seems like he has been patient and taking some walks and his ability to steal bases is a big bonus. It'll be nice to have some power guys that also can run a bit. Rios/Jones are much faster than a Dye/Thome duo. At 500k for 1 year, this could be the steal signing of the offseason.

Dibbs
03-17-2010, 05:10 PM
I sure hope so, but I feel this Jones/Kotsay DH business will cost us a spot in the playoffs. I will be glad if I am wrong, but would like to see Ozzie gone if I am right.

Foulke You
03-17-2010, 05:21 PM
I sure hope so, but I feel this Jones/Kotsay DH business will cost us a spot in the playoffs. I will be glad if I am wrong, but would like to see Ozzie gone if I am right.
Kenny Williams is a proactive GM. I have a feeling if June rolls around and the Jones/Kotsay experiment isn't working, he will make a move to add the bat we need.

sox1970
03-17-2010, 05:26 PM
Kenny Williams is a proactive GM. I have a feeling if June rolls around and the Jones/Kotsay experiment isn't working, he will make a move to add the bat we need.

True, and I don't think it's going to be a Jones/Kotsay platoon. Kotsay may start for Konerko once a week, and replace him after he gets pinch-run for. If Jones is productive, it'll probably be Pierre, Quentin, and Jones DHing about 40 games each, and everyone else picking up the rest.

mzh
03-17-2010, 05:27 PM
Kenny Williams is a proactive GM. I have a feeling if June rolls around and the Jones/Kotsay experiment isn't working, he will make a move to add the bat we need.
http://www.fantasybaseballgeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/gonzo32409-264x300.jpg
"South Side here I come!"

Lip Man 1
03-17-2010, 05:56 PM
Still way to early to assume anything with him but the early results are encouraging.

Lip

Frontman
03-17-2010, 06:26 PM
I sure hope so, but I feel this Jones/Kotsay DH business will cost us a spot in the playoffs. I will be glad if I am wrong, but would like to see Ozzie gone if I am right.

I have a feeling you'd want Ozzie gone even if you are wrong.

Last season, we complained about station to station baseball. Last season, people wanted Ozzie fired since he couldn't find a way to win.

Kenny, per Ozzie's wants, retooled and went in the other direction with speed and less power.

So, which is it? Fire Ozzie because of station to station baseball, or fire Ozzie due to speed and skill?

Either way, I'm sure someone will call for Ozzie's head after the second loss of the season; even if its three weeks in.

thomas35forever
03-17-2010, 07:33 PM
Jones has definitely had an encouraging spring. Hopefully if all goes right, he'll play a lot more than Kotsay and assume full-time duties although Ozzie wasn't looking for that.

Boondock Saint
03-17-2010, 07:43 PM
Jones has definitely had an encouraging spring. Hopefully if all goes right, he'll play a lot more than Kotsay and assume full-time duties although Ozzie wasn't looking for that.

If Jones comes out hitting, he'll see more time in the outfield, as well as at DH. Essentially, it's exactly what Ozzie was looking for.

jabrch
03-17-2010, 07:48 PM
Still way to early to assume anything with him but the early results are encouraging.

Lip

I agree. It was too early for people to crap their pants the past month...and it is too early to cream their pants now.

Let's wait and see.

Rdy2PlayBall
03-17-2010, 07:51 PM
I agree. It was too early for people to crap their pants the past month...and it is too early to cream their pants now.

Let's wait and see.eww...

guillensdisciple
03-17-2010, 07:56 PM
I think a lot of the White Sox success this year could lean on how well he hits. Imagine if he actually pulls a solid offensive season. The White Sox would have a very solid line-up then.

thedudeabides
03-17-2010, 08:10 PM
If Jones comes out hitting, he'll see more time in the outfield, as well as at DH. Essentially, it's exactly what Ozzie was looking for.

His defense in the outfield could be as important to this team as his bat. I know he's lost a step, but his defense in center will go down as some of the best of all time. It would be a nice addition for our pitchers pairing him up out there with Rios.

It's way to early to get ecxited, but it would be nice if he can contribute a few times a week on defense.

Frater Perdurabo
03-17-2010, 08:25 PM
If Jones were to play well enough to earn a spot in the everyday starting lineup, I'd go ahead and put him in the outfield and DH Quentin.

Jones, Rios and Pierre would make an outfield of three CFs. Pierre's arm is the only weakness, but that's not such a big deal in LF.

thedudeabides
03-17-2010, 08:31 PM
If Jones were to play well enough to earn a spot in the everyday starting lineup, I'd go ahead and put him in the outfield and DH Quentin.

Jones, Rios and Pierre would make an outfield of three CFs. Pierre's arm is the only weakness, but that's not such a big deal in LF.

Jones' recent injury history would make it risky to put him out there on a regular basis, even if he is hitting. He looks good now, but his legs and body are fresh.

Anyway, we are getting way ahead of ourselves. A couple weeks of spring training don't mean much, although it has been encouraging to see.

Hitmen77
03-18-2010, 09:56 AM
It's only mid-March, but I am encouraged by the performance of Jones, Rios, and Quentin so far. If this is an indication of what to expect from them during the regular season, then that's a huge boost for the Sox offense. The key for Quentin and perhaps Jones is to stay healthy through the season. Of the 3, the one I was (and still am) most doubtful about is Jones, but maybe losing a bunch of weight will make him more durable and more like his former self.

No doubt there are question marks throughout the Sox lineup, but at least each player has had recent success. This isn't like making Anderson or Fields a starter and just hoping that they'll be able to hit major league pitching. Konerko, AJ, Beckham, Ramirez - they all can hit and have done so at the major league level. I know people aren't thrilled with Pierre's OBP and lack of extra base power, but nonetheless having a .300 hitter who can steal a ton of bases isn't terrible. The biggest question mark (aside from Jones, perhaps) to me is Teahen. I'm not too thrilled about him, but hopefully he'll at least be passable in our lineup. I think Kotsay will be a plus for us off the bench or to rotate into the lineup to give others a rest.

I know the success of the Sox offense this year is far from a sure thing, but at least there is reason to be cautiously optimistic.

TheOldRoman
03-18-2010, 10:26 AM
If Jones were to play well enough to earn a spot in the everyday starting lineup, I'd go ahead and put him in the outfield and DH Quentin.

Jones, Rios and Pierre would make an outfield of three CFs. Pierre's arm is the only weakness, but that's not such a big deal in LF.No, for a few reasons. First off, Quentin is a natural RF, and will improve by moving to right. I haven't seen any games yet, but from all accounts he is moving around really well an looking great in RF. I heard Walker say over the weekend that Herm gave Carlos a 100% clean bill of health, noting that it is the first time in the two years he has been on the Sox that he wasn't listed on the team's injury report with some sort of ailment. Also, if Andruw can hit well as a DH (which is certainly not a given), you leave him there, only using him in the field 2-3 times a week to give guys days off. He has so many miles on his body from playing pro since he was 18. He needs the rest far more than Quentin. We don't know how much quicker he would wear down if he had to play the field every day. Also, Quentin is so intense that he needs to be out on the field. The last thing we want him doing is sitting in the clubhouse and stewing about striking out until he comes to bat again an hour later.

HomeFish
03-18-2010, 10:26 AM
Quentin had a big spring break last year too, right?

TheOldRoman
03-18-2010, 10:30 AM
Quentin had a big spring break last year too, right?Your schtick is old. You find any situation that looks positive and give a comparison of a similar situation with a horrible outcome. I don't remember how you were in 2005, but were you reminding everyone about the 1969 Cubs all season?

white sox bill
03-18-2010, 10:35 AM
Just my unfounded hunch: Jones starts year on fire, pitchers learn how to pitch to him and he slides the last half of season.

Hope I'm wrong, hope he stays hot all yr

HomeFish
03-18-2010, 10:35 AM
Your schtick is old. You find any situation that looks positive and give a comparison of a similar situation with a horrible outcome. I don't remember how you were in 2005, but were you reminding everyone about the 1969 Cubs all season?

I was banned for the second half of the 2005 season. IIRC, it was for something I said about Contreras's age.

HomeFish
03-18-2010, 10:36 AM
Anyway, I'm a huge Carlos Quentin fan and I hope to see him do well.

g0g0
03-18-2010, 10:41 AM
So, which is it? Fire Ozzie because of station to station baseball, or fire Ozzie due to speed and skill?

I'm always a fan of playing "station to station baseball." It makes for a much more interesting game and keeps pitchers honest.

spawn
03-18-2010, 10:43 AM
Quentin had a big spring break last year too, right?

http://mikechristie.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/bobbummer.jpg

soxinem1
03-18-2010, 10:49 AM
Jones has definitely had an encouraging spring. Hopefully if all goes right, he'll play a lot more than Kotsay and assume full-time duties although Ozzie wasn't looking for that.

Actually Guillen just stated the other day that if Jones is hitting, he will be in the lineup regardless of LH or RH pitching.

That does not sound like a guy who is expected to be a 4th OF. It sounds like a guy who may be playing 30-50 games in the OF and the rest at DH.

And if Jones ends up producing, and even stealing bases, wouldn't Guillen look like genius, like he KNEW it would happen all along?

lizard6king6
03-18-2010, 10:57 AM
All In know is I rather have 4 Outfielders who can play well and share time if needed than 3 good outfielders and no one to cover for one of them if something happens. The more talent we have the better! Better people wanting to play than 3 outfielders who are horible with no one pushing them to do better off the bench.

guillen4life13
03-18-2010, 11:00 AM
As the guy who was almost championing (though Damon or Matsui would have been nicer) the Jones/Kotsay situation, I believe that it's too early to get too excited about spring training hitting stats. I still think he will put up a .750 OPS and 25+ homers if he plays the whole season. Until he shows me anything once the season starts to indicate any different, I'm going to stand pat on my prediction.

Contrary to what another poster said about Jones starting hot then fading, I think the opposite may occur. If the weather reverts back to normal conditions for the time of year, I wonder how Andruw will perform playing in 35 degree weather. He has never played for a cold weather team before.

Tragg
03-18-2010, 11:13 AM
Never mind - see the question was asked and answered above.

russ99
03-18-2010, 11:45 AM
Just my unfounded hunch: Jones starts year on fire, pitchers learn how to pitch to him and he slides the last half of season.

Hope I'm wrong, hope he stays hot all yr

I think it's more his health. If Andruw stays healthy, he'll be fine, and even great at times.

Still, I think our pitching staff will be good enough to win even if our offense has some troubles, and Kenny will get help if it's needed.

dickallen15
03-18-2010, 12:15 PM
Quentin had a big spring break last year too, right?
Yes and Jones had a big spring in 2007 and 2008. He does look pretty good though, even though its way too early to get too excited about him.

JB98
03-18-2010, 01:06 PM
I'm still very, very skeptical of Jones. I hope the people who believe in him are proven right.

If Quentin is healthy, he's gonna hit. With him, I'm not worried about anything other than his health.

As for Rios, he's an enigma, so who knows?

tstrike2000
03-18-2010, 01:17 PM
Anyway, I'm a huge Carlos Quentin fan and I hope to see him do well.

You're actually a fan of someone on the White Sox?

tstrike2000
03-18-2010, 01:18 PM
I'm still very, very skeptical of Jones. I hope the people who believe in him are proven right.

If Quentin is healthy, he's gonna hit. With him, I'm not worried about anything other than his health.

As for Rios, he's an enigma, so who knows?

Understandable given the state of how the last few years has gone for those guys. Even if there's any semblance at all of how those guys can hit, we'll be in pretty good shape.

Boondock Saint
03-18-2010, 04:13 PM
Just my unfounded hunch: Jones starts year on fire, pitchers learn how to pitch to him and he slides the last half of season.

Hope I'm wrong, hope he stays hot all yr

Andruw Jones has been in MLB for 13 years. Pitchers know how to pitch to him. The question is whether or not he can still hit.

Frater Perdurabo
03-18-2010, 04:29 PM
As for Rios, he's an enigma, so who knows?

Think of Rios, who had a terrible 2009, like you do of Paulie, who had a terrible 2003. :D:

SephClone89
03-18-2010, 05:00 PM
I'm always a fan of playing "station to station baseball." It makes for a much more interesting game and keeps pitchers honest.

Do you understand what is meant by "station to station baseball"? That's the "four base hits to score a run" style that we've been playing for years, i.e. NOT speed or aggressive baserunning.

Though bizarrely, the term has also been used to mean the exact opposite, so I can see where you are confused. Though, that post made it clear which "variety" it was referring to.

JB98
03-18-2010, 05:35 PM
Think of Rios, who had a terrible 2009, like you do of Paulie, who had a terrible 2003. :D:

I'll try to do that. It was easier for me to forgive Paulie for 2003 because he played well for us from 2000-02. We've yet to see Rios play well for the Sox. Obviously, he did do some good things for Toronto. Hopefully, we get that player this year.

DumpJerry
03-18-2010, 05:46 PM
Quentin had a big spring break last year too, right?
He had a very hot April (led MLB in Home Runs at one point) but then suffered an injury, not a slump.

Big difference from what you seem to be implying.

jabrch
03-18-2010, 09:20 PM
I'm still very, very skeptical of Jones. I hope the people who believe in him are proven right.

I still don't believe I have seem too many who "believe in" Jones. I don't.

I'm just not ready to write him off quite yet. I wasn't before, and am certainly not ready now. That's very different than believing in him.

doublem23
03-18-2010, 09:26 PM
Andruw Jones sucks.

parlaycard
03-18-2010, 10:03 PM
Andruw Jones sucks.

Thats what everyone thought of Cal Eldred and Esteban Loaiza when the White Sox acquired them.

beasly213
03-18-2010, 10:22 PM
Andruw Jones sucks.

Until proven otherwise... Yup.

doublem23
03-18-2010, 10:32 PM
Thats what everyone thought of Cal Eldred and Esteban Loaiza when the White Sox acquired them.

That's also what everyone thought of Wilson Betemit, Bartolo Colon (2nd time), Jerry Owens...

Brian26
03-18-2010, 10:36 PM
That's also what everyone thought of Wilson Betemit, Bartolo Colon (2nd time), Jerry Owens...

I'm not sure what we're going to get from Jones this year, but you have to admit that his resume and talent put him on a different level than Betemit and Owens. Expectations can reasonably be different in Jones' case.

doublem23
03-18-2010, 10:38 PM
I'm not sure what we're going to get from Jones this year, but you have to admit that his resume and talent put him on a different level than Betemit and Owens. Expectations can reasonably be different in Jones' case.

Not really, since Andruw Jones has been absolutely worthless since when? 2006?

jabrch
03-18-2010, 10:40 PM
Andruw Jones sucks.

I guess you are so dug into this position now that you have to stick with it....for how long? I don't know...

voodoochile
03-18-2010, 10:41 PM
Not really, since Andruw Jones has been absolutely worthless since when? 2006?

Or not...:rolleyes:

doublem23
03-18-2010, 10:46 PM
Or not...:rolleyes:

.207/.304/.393 slash in 311 G over those 3 years, with as many K as H + BB...

:rolling:

I appreciate these threads because they give me a reason to look at Jones' BR page for a good laugh.

Hey guys, Babe Ruth had a solid season in 1923. Somebody give his fat ass a contract!!!

oeo
03-18-2010, 10:47 PM
That's also what everyone thought of Wilson Betemit, Bartolo Colon (2nd time), Jerry Owens...

For the millionth time, Colon didn't suck. He didn't stay healthy, but when he was out there, he pitched pretty well.

voodoochile
03-18-2010, 10:50 PM
.207/.304/.393 slash in 311 G over those 3 years, with as many K as H + BB...

:rolling:

I appreciate these threads because they give me a reason to look at Jones' BR page for a good laugh.

Hey guys, Babe Ruth had a solid season in 1923. Somebody give his fat ass a contract!!!

Yes and it's heavily effected by the horrible 2008 season when he posted a .505 OPS in 75 games.

If he matches his 2007 stats he'll be a nice addition to the team anything more than that would be gravy. If he can come close to posting 2009 numbers over a full season, this team should walk into the playoffs...

voodoochile
03-18-2010, 10:51 PM
For the millionth time, Colon didn't suck. He didn't stay healthy, but when he was out there, he pitched pretty well.

No, his numbers don't tell the story. He gave up a ton of unearned runs because every time someone made an error to extend an inning he completely melted down. His numbers don't look bad, but he sucked...

doublem23
03-18-2010, 10:56 PM
Yes and it's heavily effected by the horrible 2008 season when he posted a .505 OPS in 75 games.

If he matches his 2007 stats he'll be a nice addition to the team anything more than that would be gravy. If he can come close to posting 2009 numbers over a full season, this team should walk into the playoffs...

That 2008 season doesn't even represent 20% of his total PAs over the last three years. Yes, those numbers are atrocious, but let's not pretend like he bookended that season with a pair of quality years. At best, last year he had a league average OPS while he was the living embodiment of the HR or Nothing approach at the plate that I thought we all agreed was terrible like... 3 years ago.

I just cannot make it any clearer how awful he is at baseball now, and I'm sure if he was the starting DH for any other American League team out there, we'd be laughing our asses off in Talking Baseball.

voodoochile
03-18-2010, 11:14 PM
That 2008 season doesn't even represent 20% of his total PAs over the last three years. Yes, those numbers are atrocious, but let's not pretend like he bookended that season with a pair of quality years. At best, last year he had a league average OPS while he was the living embodiment of the HR or Nothing approach at the plate that I thought we all agreed was terrible like... 3 years ago.

WE did, did WE? :dunno:

I don't seem to recall making statements like that, so feel free to have your little hating on the homer party without me.

What's one of the main missing ingredients from this team this coming year according to you naysayers?

Power...

If Jones can hit 25 HR with 25 doubles that will pretty much match the production Thome would have given the team (something "we" have been whining about too).

The main issue with his 2007 numbers was his batting average. If he jumps that 30 points (2 hits every 3 weeks over the course of the season) his slash line improves dramatically to close to the 2009 numbers.

.780 OPS is probably all this team needs if it comes weighted in favor of slg...

JermaineDye05
03-18-2010, 11:20 PM
Not really, since Andruw Jones has been absolutely worthless since when? 2006?

There have been cases where players have resurrected their careers, if only for a season. See Russell Branyan last year, Mark DeRosa a couple seasons ago, Joel Pineiro, not sure if this one counts too but Carlos Pena certainly turned it up a notch once he joined TB.

JohnTucker0814
03-18-2010, 11:41 PM
There have been cases where players have resurrected their careers, if only for a season. See Russell Branyan last year, Mark DeRosa a couple seasons ago, Joel Pineiro, not sure if this one counts too but Carlos Pena certainly turned it up a notch once he joined TB.

And he's only 32 yrs old... Why can't he be a productive player again? Will he be a superstar like he was in his early 20's??? No... But if he can hit 25 home runs and bat .250-.260, I'll take that!

TheVulture
03-18-2010, 11:59 PM
My question is his defense - does he look like a quality CFer?

guillen4life13
03-19-2010, 03:49 AM
I just cannot make it any clearer how awful he is at baseball now, and I'm sure if he was the starting DH for any other American League team out there, we'd be laughing our asses off in Talking Baseball.

I think you're just an expert at taking statistics out of context in your transformation to the pessimist you've so suddenly become. It's gotten old and worn out and is now well beyond the realism you pass it as. I don't expect Jones to be an All-Star or even an average DH, but the way you characterize the situation, it's as if you or I would do a better job than him. As I've said uncountable times, IF the White Sox do not make the playoffs, it will be because of injuries to or lack of production from players not named Andruw Jones.

The world is not ending. Life will go on. If Andruw Jones puts up a productive line this year (.800+ OPS), or better yet (and as I predict) the Sox win the division, will you answer for all the bull**** you've said about him and the team so far or will you hide and try to accuse us of taking your posts out of context if/when we call you out on them?

Feel free to hold me to the same standard. In fact, I truly encourage that. I know when to own up and eat crow when I'm wrong, and as I just said, I don't expect Jones to be the player he was through 2006. Awful is a very strong word. But even stronger has been the totally condescending tone you've portrayed throughout the whole debate in various threads when anyone has disagreed with your opinion on this topic.

jabrch
03-19-2010, 07:35 AM
Awful is a very strong word. But even stronger has been the totally condescending tone you've portrayed throughout the whole debate in various threads when anyone has disagreed with your opinion on this topic.


And most people don't even "disagree". I don't hear anyone projecting career best #s for him. What most people want to do is wait and see more than what he has done other places...and more than he has done so far this spring before we draw a conclusion that someone who was once labled as one of the most talented players in the game can not be productive in a role like this...

voodoochile
03-19-2010, 09:01 AM
My question is his defense - does he look like a quality CFer?

The few times I've seen him this spring he looks so smooth it's ridiculous...

Edit: but I haven't seen him tested yet either.

dickallen15
03-19-2010, 09:20 AM
The few times I've seen him this spring he looks so smooth it's ridiculous...

Edit: but I haven't seen him tested yet either.

He missed a cutoff man the other night and it cost the Sox a run.

spawn
03-19-2010, 09:24 AM
He missed a cutoff man the other night and it cost the Sox a run.
He also threw out a runner at home to save a run when the Sox were in Las Vegas.

Jim Shorts
03-19-2010, 09:27 AM
It's almost like Andruw Jones molested a Collie for the venom he's getting.


He cost the Sox nothing. Why not just see what happens?

rdwj
03-19-2010, 09:30 AM
It's almost like Andruw Jones molested a Collie for the venom he's getting.


He cost the Sox nothing. Why not just see what happens?

Agreed - he's been a pleasant surprise so far and if he can continue, he'll be a HUGE plus for the Sox. I don't get all the bashing from the dark clouds.

jabrch
03-19-2010, 09:38 AM
Agreed - he's been a pleasant surprise so far and if he can continue, he'll be a HUGE plus for the Sox. I don't get all the bashing from the dark clouds.

I think this is another case of a very vocal minority. I don't think the majority of this site was ready to quit on any possibility that Jones could be a productive player for this club. I also don't think anyone was 100% convinced that he would be a productive player for this club.

There are three camps.

1) about 5% of the posting population who know that it is a definitive fact that Jones sucked, sucks and will suck, and that this is incontravertible and irrefutable

2) about 94% who think he could, but recognize it is not anywhere close to a lock, be at least a league average DH, possibly better

3) 1% who are sold on Jones (and off the top of my head, I can't name any...but I am sure there are.

thedudeabides
03-19-2010, 09:42 AM
My question is his defense - does he look like a quality CFer?

So far he does. There is even talk of putting him in CF when he plays and Rios in right. There has been a lot of debate amongst the players and coaches who is better right now between Jones and Rios(many are saying Jones). That's a good sign and not a knock on Rios. Don't forget just how good of a CF Andruw was. He is healthy again and 25 pounds lighter. The question is whether or not he can hold up out there on a regular basis? Even a couple times a week would give the Sox an outfield rotation with Pierre, Quentin, Rios, and Jones. Two pretty good outfielders(including Quentin because he looks to be moving much better out there), and two potentially very good outfielders in Jones and Rios.

What's encouraging right now is his approach at the plate. He has been taking really good at bats. He's been working the count and his swing looks better. He has shot a couple of outside pitches, fastballs and breaking balls, to the right field gap. Something that has been missing from his game. He turned into a dead pull hitter the last few years. His hips were clearing out almost immediatley and he was getting no extension in his arms. He seems to be staying back and getting that extension again. His 3 run homerun Wednesday was a slider off Dodger reliever Roman Troncoso, who has pretty good stuff.

In all fairness, it's spring training and pitchers are just getting their arms in shape and have difficulty getting snap on their breaking pitches. We'll have to wait and see how he holds up when he gets out of Arizona and the muscles and joints are a little tighter in the cold air, and the breaking pitches are breaking. But, for now his approach and conditioning look better and that's all we have to go on.

GoSox2K3
03-19-2010, 09:43 AM
That's also what everyone thought of Wilson Betemit, Bartolo Colon (2nd time), Jerry Owens...

Oh come on, are you seriously comparing Andruw Jones to Betemit and Owens? There is a huge difference in that those other two guys never accomplished anything.

I agree that the Colon comparison is worth mentioning, but even there it's not exactly the same. Colon showed up to Sox camp as fat as ever last year. Also he's a pitcher. I have a lot less confidence in a pitcher who is now broken down, out of shape, and washed up suddenly reverting to his old self than seeing a slimmed down 32 yr old OF coming back from several down years.

I personally would have been happier if the Sox acquired a legitimate bat for DH who we didn't just get on the clearance rack. I'd still give Jones's chance of success this year at less than 50% (but not exactly 1% either). Now that were going with Jones, let's see how this plays out. According to you, we may as well just give up right now. :whiteflag::whiteflag::whiteflag:

JermaineDye05
03-19-2010, 12:54 PM
The few times I've seen him this spring he looks so smooth it's ridiculous...

Edit: but I haven't seen him tested yet either.

The problem is Rios is also a very smooth CF. If the Sox go with Jones or Rios in CF, they can't go wrong. After years with a CF who could field but never hit, the White Sox (if Jones is indeed ready for a comeback season) could potentially have 2 CF who can both field exceptionally well and hit.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 01:35 PM
I think this is another case of a very vocal minority. I don't think the majority of this site was ready to quit on any possibility that Jones could be a productive player for this club. I also don't think anyone was 100% convinced that he would be a productive player for this club.

There are three camps.

1) about 5% of the posting population who know that it is a definitive fact that Jones sucked, sucks and will suck, and that this is incontravertible and irrefutable

2) about 94% who think he could, but recognize it is not anywhere close to a lock, be at least a league average DH, possibly better

3) 1% who are sold on Jones (and off the top of my head, I can't name any...but I am sure there are.

:rolling:

Keep telling yourself that.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 01:37 PM
According to you, we may as well just give up right now. :whiteflag::whiteflag::whiteflag:

... Or if you'd bother to read any of my posts, you'd notice that the Sox still have a chance at this thing because we thankfully play in a division with 4 other teams who might suck worse than we do. If we live in a world were saying things like "Andruw Jones might be an OK DH" doesn't get you committed instantly, then it's probably not too big of a stretch to think the Sox can eek out ahead of the Twins or Tigers.

If we were playing in a Big Boy division with real teams, yes, we might be in some trouble.

Boondock Saint
03-19-2010, 02:00 PM
:rolling:

Keep telling yourself that.

... Or if you'd bother to read any of my posts, you'd notice that the Sox still have a chance at this thing because we thankfully play in a division with 4 other teams who might suck worse than we do. If we live in a world were saying things like "Andruw Jones might be an OK DH" doesn't get you committed instantly, then it's probably not too big of a stretch to think the Sox can eek out ahead of the Twins or Tigers.

If we were playing in a Big Boy division with real teams, yes, we might be in some trouble.

These posts only help to prove his point. The way you're campaigning against Jones, you'd think he'd kicked your dog and called your mother ugly.

Domeshot17
03-19-2010, 02:03 PM
... Or if you'd bother to read any of my posts, you'd notice that the Sox still have a chance at this thing because we thankfully play in a division with 4 other teams who might suck worse than we do. If we live in a world were saying things like "Andruw Jones might be an OK DH" doesn't get you committed instantly, then it's probably not too big of a stretch to think the Sox can eek out ahead of the Twins or Tigers.

If we were playing in a Big Boy division with real teams, yes, we might be in some trouble.

That is probably a more accurate statement as the breakdown. I think most of us realize we can win our pathetic as hell division with a few games over .500 again. Especially with Nathan out.

THAT SAID, I know I atleast speaking for myself get upset at the lineup because we have a world series calibur pitching staff, but we have to think about competing with the Yankees and Red Sox and Phillies and Mariners etc. Boston New York and Philly are so far above everyone else currently, and the Mariners are pretty much on par with us, and might have the best 1-3 in baseball IF they get bedard back healthy in the 2nd half.

There just seems to be 2 entirely different schools of thought as for the playoffs. A lot love the just make it, close your eyes, and hope for the best approach we took in 2008 and some of us want to see the team be aggressive from day 1, and put ourselves in the best possible position to win a title.

The truth is, with the rotation we have, winning 87-88 games and being a first round exit should be considered a total failure.

Hopefully Jones proves everyone wrong. It should be fun to see if he can keep it up late in the spring when pitchers are doing more than just throwing fastballs trying to locate.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 02:49 PM
These posts only help to prove his point. The way you're campaigning against Jones, you'd think he'd kicked your dog and called your mother ugly.

No, he's going to be the DH of my favorite baseball team, despite being a really, really, really bad hitter.

thedudeabides
03-19-2010, 02:56 PM
... Or if you'd bother to read any of my posts, you'd notice that the Sox still have a chance at this thing because we thankfully play in a division with 4 other teams who might suck worse than we do. If we live in a world were saying things like "Andruw Jones might be an OK DH" doesn't get you committed instantly, then it's probably not too big of a stretch to think the Sox can eek out ahead of the Twins or Tigers.

If we were playing in a Big Boy division with real teams, yes, we might be in some trouble.

Good thing you're usuing rational arguments to prove your point.

I'm starting to wonder if this is shtick from you, or what 2010 Doublem23 would say to 2009 Doublem23. That would be an awesome conversation.

JNS
03-19-2010, 03:10 PM
No, he's going to be the DH of my favorite baseball team, despite being a really, really, really bad hitter.

Man, what a waste of pixels. How do you know what Jones is gonna do in 2010? You can speculate based on past performance all you want, but please stop acting as if you can see the future.

As several have already said, he's costing the Sox almost nothing so if he tanks they can release him without a lot of angst - I thought he might not even be on the team by the time they head North, but now it appears he's regaining some of the qualities he showed for all those years in Atlanta.

They dude is 32. He's dropped 25 pounds. He's hammering the ball right now - which doesn't mean he will later. But he's a lot younger than Dye or Thome. And potentially he has a lot of baseball left in him.

You might want to chill a little before you state his future performance as a fact. If he does tank I'm sure you'll be happy to remind everyone of how you predicted it. If he has a good season you will need to take the reminders of what you wrote here with good humor.

Thatguyoverthere
03-19-2010, 03:37 PM
... Or if you'd bother to read any of my posts, you'd notice that the Sox still have a chance at this thing because we thankfully play in a division with 4 other teams who might suck worse than we do. If we live in a world were saying things like "Andruw Jones might be an OK DH" doesn't get you committed instantly, then it's probably not too big of a stretch to think the Sox can eek out ahead of the Twins or Tigers.

If we were playing in a Big Boy division with real teams, yes, we might be in some trouble.You act like he has no chance to hit above the Mendoza line or OPS above .500 the way you talk about him. I don't think people have a problem with you thinking Jones will suck, but it's this "holier than thou" condescending attitude you're taking with this subject that is ridiculous.

jabrch
03-19-2010, 05:33 PM
:rolling:

Keep telling yourself that.

Show me otherwise.

I hear a very few people chronically bitching extremely loudly about ****. (now granted - my ignore list is big, so maybe there are 100 other people bitching, but I wouldn't hear/listen/read a word they say) I hear most people being patient.

You can keep telling yourself everyone shares your hate and your predictions of disaster for Jones. If it makes you feel better thinking there are others miserable with you, go ahead Dubs. Have a blast.

I'm going to wait and see what goes on with him for a few months of 2010 before deciding that he sucks.

jabrch
03-19-2010, 05:34 PM
No, he's going to be the DH of my favorite baseball team, despite being a really, really, really bad hitter.

Your opinion...your prediction...not a fact. There is ample evidence that says your opinion is not a fact.

jabrch
03-19-2010, 05:36 PM
I'm starting to wonder if this is shtick from you, or what 2010 Doublem23 would say to 2009 Doublem23. That would be an awesome conversation.

I thought about that yesterday and considered posting it. In fact, maybe I did - I don't remember. But in any case, it is remarkable how much he is willing to dig himself into this position. I guess if he is right, he can say "I told you so" and if he is wrong, then the Sox win and he is happy - so it is a win-win situation?

doublem23
03-19-2010, 05:43 PM
Good thing you're usuing rational arguments to prove your point.

I'm starting to wonder if this is shtick from you, or what 2010 Doublem23 would say to 2009 Doublem23. That would be an awesome conversation.

2010 Doublem would tell 2009 Doublem not to go get too excited about the Sox because they will, unfortunately, suck. 2009 Doublem will tell 2010 Doublem not to loose faith in Ozzie and KW. 2010 Doublem would tell 2009 Doublem that Andruw Jones, fresh off not hitting anything in Texas, is slated to be the Opening Day DH for the Sox. 2009 Doublem will blow his brains out.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 05:45 PM
Your opinion...your prediction...not a fact. There is ample evidence that says your opinion is not a fact.

Would that be the 1 good 1/2 he put together over the last 6 years, in the best hitter's park in all of baseball, before disappearing for the 2nd half of the season.

This dude has barely hit .200 over the last 3 seasons. This thread is a joke.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 05:47 PM
I thought about that yesterday and considered posting it. In fact, maybe I did - I don't remember. But in any case, it is remarkable how much he is willing to dig himself into this position. I guess if he is right, he can say "I told you so" and if he is wrong, then the Sox win and he is happy - so it is a win-win situation?

Perhaps I don't have any other position other than I realize Andruw Jones really, really, really sucks at baseball. Perhaps I see the Sox wasting one of the league's best starting rotations with a horse**** offense. Maybe in 2009, I saw a team that was defending a division championship and in 2010 I see a team, coming off a losing season that has taken steps backwards in the same areas that doomed them last year?

jabrch
03-19-2010, 06:38 PM
Perhaps I don't have any other position other than I realize Andruw Jones really, really, really sucks at baseball.

You THINK Andruw Jones really, really, really sucks at baseball. I think Andruw Jones is an incredibly talented baseball player who underperformed that talent level significantly the past few years. You see no hope for him. I see no reason to not see hope until we see no reason to hope. I'm willing to wait and watch how Jones looks for the Sox. You are unwilling to see anything other than what Jones did the past few years.

And by the way, just to help me understand, who sucks at baseball, who really sucks at baseball, who really really sucks at baseball, and who, besides Jones, really, really, really sucks at baseball? I'd like to understand since you are clairvoyant to the future, what is going to happen before my fantasy draft tonight.

Brian26
03-19-2010, 07:04 PM
2010 Doublem would tell 2009 Doublem not to go get too excited about the Sox because they will, unfortunately, suck. 2009 Doublem will tell 2010 Doublem not to loose faith in Ozzie and KW. 2010 Doublem would tell 2009 Doublem that Andruw Jones, fresh off not hitting anything in Texas, is slated to be the Opening Day DH for the Sox. 2009 Doublem will blow his brains out.

There's definitely a time-space continuum problem here. If the 2009 Doublem blows his brains out, the 2010 Doublem would never make it here to act like Andruw Jones ran over his dog and stole his lunch money.

Rohan
03-19-2010, 07:10 PM
There's definitely a time-space continuum problem here. If the 2009 Doublem blows his brains out, the 2010 Doublem would never make it here to act like Andruw Jones ran over his dog and stole his lunch money.

:roflmao:
Classic

Daver
03-19-2010, 07:18 PM
There's definitely a time-space continuum problem here. If the 2009 Doublem blows his brains out, the 2010 Doublem would never make it here to act like Andruw Jones ran over his dog and stole his lunch money.

Doub would also need the talent to aim a longarm while pulling the trigger with his toe.

Frontman
03-19-2010, 07:31 PM
2010 Doublem would tell 2009 Doublem not to go get too excited about the Sox because they will, unfortunately, suck. 2009 Doublem will tell 2010 Doublem not to loose faith in Ozzie and KW. 2010 Doublem would tell 2009 Doublem that Andruw Jones, fresh off not hitting anything in Texas, is slated to be the Opening Day DH for the Sox. 2009 Doublem will blow his brains out.

So you're saying one player will make or break the 2010 White Sox.

Amazing that. I could of sworn we had a few different DH's in 2005, 3 different closers; as well as a few others who health failed them.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 08:26 PM
There's definitely a time-space continuum problem here. If the 2009 Doublem blows his brains out, the 2010 Doublem would never make it here to act like Andruw Jones ran over his dog and stole his lunch money.

No, no, it's cool, I'm Catholic.

Frater Perdurabo
03-19-2010, 08:36 PM
No, no, it's cool, I'm Catholic.

Then I guess you probably don't want to know that Notre Dame has signed Andruw Jones to be their QB next year. :tongue:

Ranger
03-19-2010, 08:58 PM
That's also what everyone thought of Wilson Betemit, Bartolo Colon (2nd time), Jerry Owens...

Not comparable. Betemit and Owens NEVER produced at the MLB level like Jones has. Colon was 36 with a history of injury problems including a bad back. Jones is 32 and is rarely hurt.

Ranger
03-19-2010, 09:01 PM
So you're saying one player will make or break the 2010 White Sox.

Amazing that. I could of sworn we had a few different DH's in 2005, 3 different closers; as well as a few others who health failed them.

I sure hope so, but I feel this Jones/Kotsay DH business will cost us a spot in the playoffs. I will be glad if I am wrong, but would like to see Ozzie gone if I am right.

It's not going to cost them a playoff spot. If the Sox don't make teh playoffs, it will be for several reasons, not because of the DH. The DH, by the way, isn't going to carry the bulk of the offense, that honor belongs to Quentin. What the Sox really can't afford is a bad year from him.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 09:01 PM
Not comparable. Betemit and Owens NEVER produced at the MLB level like Jones has. Colon was 36 with a history of injury problems including a bad back. Jones is 32 and is rarely hurt.

I was sort of hoping he's been chronically hurt so I could blame the past three seasons of pure **** on something.

Frater Perdurabo
03-19-2010, 09:04 PM
I was sort of hoping he's been chronically hurt so I could blame the past three seasons of pure **** on something.

Blame his past three bad seasons on overeating and poor conditioning.

By all accounts, he's got himself back into good shape.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 09:05 PM
So you're saying one player will make or break the 2010 White Sox.

Amazing that. I could of sworn we had a few different DH's in 2005, 3 different closers; as well as a few others who health failed them.

No, there's plenty to go around; Quentin's always hurt, Rios is a head case, Konerko's getting older, Alexei is Alexei, Teahen is just terrible... That doesn't excuse Jones from sucking, though.

I could have sworn in 2005 we just had good players all over the field.

thedudeabides
03-19-2010, 09:23 PM
No, there's plenty to go around; Quentin's always hurt, Rios is a head case, Konerko's getting older, Alexei is Alexei, Teahen is just terrible... That doesn't excuse Jones from sucking, though.

I could have sworn in 2005 we just had good players all over the field.

:thumbsup:

Your hyperbolic posts about this team have been more entertaining than Ozzie's Twitter. :duck:

Frontman
03-19-2010, 09:45 PM
No, there's plenty to go around; Quentin's always hurt, Rios is a head case, Konerko's getting older, Alexei is Alexei, Teahen is just terrible... That doesn't excuse Jones from sucking, though.

I could have sworn in 2005 we just had good players all over the field.

You mean like Carl Everett good? Where is Crazy Carl nowadays?

And let's see:

Jenks prior to 2005=headcase

Thomas=Getting older/always getting hurt

Iguchi=unproven commodity

El Duque=scary when given the ball....scary for Sox fans, that is.

It's easy to look at what has happened prior and go "Yep, this team will fail since this player only did BLANK last year." I happen to be on the side of at least TRYING to see what this team can bring before writing them off.

Brian26
03-19-2010, 09:48 PM
No, there's plenty to go around; Quentin's always hurt, Rios is a head case, Konerko's getting older, Alexei is Alexei, Teahen is just terrible... That doesn't excuse Jones from sucking, though.

Not true. :angry:

Nellie_Fox
03-20-2010, 12:25 AM
:thumbsup:

Your hyperbolic posts about this team have been more entertaining than Ozzie's Twitter. :duck:I'm tellin' ya, Homefish is going to have to pick up his game. There's a new sheriff in town.

doublem23
03-20-2010, 03:42 AM
You mean like Carl Everett good? Where is Crazy Carl nowadays?

And let's see:

Jenks prior to 2005=headcase

Thomas=Getting older/always getting hurt

Iguchi=unproven commodity

El Duque=scary when given the ball....scary for Sox fans, that is.

It's easy to look at what has happened prior and go "Yep, this team will fail since this player only did BLANK last year." I happen to be on the side of at least TRYING to see what this team can bring before writing them off.

WOW! FOUR WHOLE PLAYERS!

BTW, Carl Everett vs. Andruw Jones? ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS? :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Everett's 2002-2004: .274/.345/.461, 334 G, 51 HR, 189 RBI
Jones' 2007-2009: .207/.304/.393, 311 G, 46 HR, 151 RBI

Totally, they're like mirror images of one another!!!

doublem23
03-20-2010, 03:49 AM
:thumbsup:

Your hyperbolic posts about this team have been more entertaining than Ozzie's Twitter. :duck:

Nice zinger, but please tell me what is hyperbolic?

Is Quentin not a huge injury risk?
Is Rios not a head case?
Is Konerko somehow getting younger everyday?
Do you have any realistic idea what to expect from Alexei?
Has Teahen not been below average for his entire career?
Are not AAA teams who will have a better DH than our platoon?

Look, if you believe that everything is sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows with the Sox, that's you're opinion and you're entitled to it. I just happen to not see things the same way... I don't think you need to be too much of a Dark Cloud to envision Quentin missing major parts of the season, that Rios hit under .200 during his time with the Sox, that Konerko is still a below average offensive 1B, that Alexei regressed at the plate in 2009, that Mark Teahen's career OPS+ is under 100, and that Andruw Jones is a Baseball Black Hole.

Danielgosox38
03-20-2010, 05:50 AM
Double M has proven his point. He has stats to back it up. All you guys have done is just disagree with him, without having anything to back it up with. Double M wins this argument.

Danielgosox38
03-20-2010, 06:33 AM
Nice zinger, but please tell me what is hyperbolic?

Is Quentin not a huge injury risk?
Is Rios not a head case?
Is Konerko somehow getting younger everyday?
Do you have any realistic idea what to expect from Alexei?
Has Teahen not been below average for his entire career?
Are not AAA teams who will have a better DH than our platoon?

Look, if you believe that everything is sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows with the Sox, that's you're opinion and you're entitled to it. I just happen to not see things the same way... I don't think you need to be too much of a Dark Cloud to envision Quentin missing major parts of the season, that Rios hit under .200 during his time with the Sox, that Konerko is still a below average offensive 1B, that Alexei regressed at the plate in 2009, that Mark Teahen's career OPS+ is under 100, and that Andruw Jones is a Baseball Black Hole.


Alot of people have the sunshine and rainbows mindset here. It's the only annoying thing I can think of, in an otherwise very good forum.

doublem23
03-20-2010, 06:54 AM
Alot of people have the sunshine and rainbows mindset here. It's the only annoying thing I can think of, in an otherwise very good forum.

Nah, people are entitled to the opinion they want and there are good reasons to be optimistic about this Sox team; we have a great pitching staff, we have a potentially great bullpen, and yes, I'm willing to concede that if a couple players stay healthy or play to the best of their talents, we might have a good little lineup. And best of all, we play in the Mickey Mouse Division with 4 other woefully incomplete teams, too. So I get that.

I try to normally stay positive, but this lineup just does not pass the Eye Test for me. Lots of unlikeable parts, and then there's this Andruw Jones thing, which just drives me crazy. I don't think he'll be the reason we sink or swim in 2010, I just don't think he should be anywhere near a MLB roster to start this season, let alone hitting in the middle of someone's order. He is such a ****ty hitter, if they wanted to bring him in and send him to Charlotte to work some stuff out, fine, maybe they'll strike gold like they did with Scotty Pods last year. I'm not holding my breath. This team's pitching staff is too good to waste on half-assed efforts from the lineup, which is what I fear.

Danielgosox38
03-20-2010, 07:09 AM
Nah, people are entitled to the opinion they want and there are good reasons to be optimistic about this Sox team; we have a great pitching staff, we have a potentially great bullpen, and yes, I'm willing to concede that if a couple players stay healthy or play to the best of their talents, we might have a good little lineup. And best of all, we play in the Mickey Mouse Division with 4 other woefully incomplete teams, too. So I get that.

I try to normally stay positive, but this lineup just does not pass the Eye Test for me. Lots of unlikeable parts, and then there's this Andruw Jones thing, which just drives me crazy. I don't think he'll be the reason we sink or swim in 2010, I just don't think he should be anywhere near a MLB roster to start this season, let alone hitting in the middle of someone's order. He is such a ****ty hitter, if they wanted to bring him in and send him to Charlotte to work some stuff out, fine, maybe they'll strike gold like they did with Scotty Pods last year. I'm not holding my breath. This team's pitching staff is too good to waste on half-assed efforts from the lineup, which is what I fear.

Yeah, we have an AMAZING rotation. If we had a better lineup, we could definitely be a world series contender.

dickallen15
03-20-2010, 08:08 AM
Read this article about Andruw Jones. Then check the date it was written. People get way too excited about 25 spring training AB.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/10/sports/sp-plaschke10

thedudeabides
03-20-2010, 08:47 AM
Nice zinger, but please tell me what is hyperbolic?

Is Quentin not a huge injury risk?
Is Rios not a head case?
Is Konerko somehow getting younger everyday?
Do you have any realistic idea what to expect from Alexei?
Has Teahen not been below average for his entire career?
Are not AAA teams who will have a better DH than our platoon?

Look, if you believe that everything is sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows with the Sox, that's you're opinion and you're entitled to it. I just happen to not see things the same way... I don't think you need to be too much of a Dark Cloud to envision Quentin missing major parts of the season, that Rios hit under .200 during his time with the Sox, that Konerko is still a below average offensive 1B, that Alexei regressed at the plate in 2009, that Mark Teahen's career OPS+ is under 100, and that Andruw Jones is a Baseball Black Hole.

You are doing nothing but looking at worst case scenario for everyone. Alex Rios had a down year so now he's a headcase? He has a pretty proven track record and is an excellent outfielder, albeit probably overpaid. Quentin is an MVP caliber hitter and he is healthy. Yes, he's an injury risk, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for him to get hurt. I'm excited he's healthy and will be huge for this team. Alexei did some things worse and some better offensively, all the while playing a more demanding position, and after a rusty adjustment playing it very well defensively. Konerko isn't an all-star, but he's far from a liability on offense or defense. I agree with you Teahen is an average player at best, but the Sox see something in him. We'll see, but I'm not expecting much out of him. I'm not even going to comment on Andruw Jones, as my thoughts about him are out there, but to have league average production from the DH position isn't all that far fetched. The three year average for the position is an .809 OPS with 18 homeruns and 67 RBI. It's no guarantee the Sox get that, but I'm pretty sure it won't be so far below that it sinks the team.

I'm not trying to change your opinion of this team, but please stop trying to box people into groups that don't agree with you. If you think I've been "sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows" about this team, than I guess you haven't paid attention to any of my thoughts this offseason, and are just taking the convenient approach of putting a label on me. When I post about this team, I try to have well thought out posts backed up with reason, stats or examples. I miss the mark sometimes, but I try not to just spew bull****.

And as for my hyperbole comment, it was in good fun, and you really don't think you have been over the top at times? I'm not the only one giving you **** lately. I think we are all just trying to adjust to your 100 win prediction, to the vitriol you now have for them. Maybe, you just like to look at things in extremes? Whatever works for you, I just hope you can enjoy the season, and once baseball actually starts, I know you will.

Frontman
03-20-2010, 12:51 PM
WOW! FOUR WHOLE PLAYERS!

BTW, Carl Everett vs. Andruw Jones? ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS? :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Everett's 2002-2004: .274/.345/.461, 334 G, 51 HR, 189 RBI
Jones' 2007-2009: .207/.304/.393, 311 G, 46 HR, 151 RBI

Totally, they're like mirror images of one another!!!

So, had I listed another person on the 2005 squad, THEN my post makes sense?

Since, you know; you're theory that the 2010 Sox will stink is based on FIVE players?

And exactly did I match Everett with Jones? I said Everett was SUCH a GREAT player, Kenny did everything to keep him...oh, wait. Nevermind.

Nellie_Fox
03-21-2010, 12:33 AM
Alot of people have the sunshine and rainbows mindset here. It's the only annoying thing I can think of, in an otherwise very good forum.Optimism annoys you? Really?

And "alot" is not a word.

Craig Grebeck
03-21-2010, 01:43 AM
It's not going to cost them a playoff spot. If the Sox don't make teh playoffs, it will be for several reasons, not because of the DH. The DH, by the way, isn't going to carry the bulk of the offense, that honor belongs to Quentin. What the Sox really can't afford is a bad year from him.
The DH won't carry the bulk of the offense because the White Sox have all but assured themselves of a ****ty DH. Your assertion might be false if the White Sox signed an actual DH.

BadBobbyJenks
03-21-2010, 02:25 AM
I was happy to see him take one deep in person today, but I have not changed my opinion. At least he doesn't look fat.

sullythered
03-21-2010, 02:29 AM
I was happy to see him take one deep in person today, but I have not changed my opinion. At least he doesn't look fat.

I think the lack of fat will make him less terrible. I doubt we'll see 2004 Andruw Jones again, though.

Danielgosox38
03-21-2010, 05:48 AM
Optimism annoys you? Really?

And "alot" is not a word.

You put words in my mouth. I never said that. The attitude that the Sox organization can do no wrong is what annoys me.

Frontman
03-21-2010, 08:24 AM
You put words in my mouth. I never said that. The attitude that the Sox organization can do no wrong is what annoys me.

Now who's putting words in people's mouths? Nobody said the Sox can do no wrong. But again, be a naysayer all you'd like. That way, its win-win for you. If the Sox make the playoffs, you'll be happy as a Sox fan. If Jones does bad, 6 months from now you can crow "SEE? SEE? I WAS RIGHT!!!!" all you want.

In the meantime, the rest of us will try and enjoy the games if they do good; and look forward to football season if they do bad.

jabrch
03-21-2010, 08:45 AM
Now who's putting words in people's mouths? Nobody said the Sox can do no wrong. But again, be a naysayer all you'd like. That way, its win-win for you. If the Sox make the playoffs, you'll be happy as a Sox fan. If Jones does bad, 6 months from now you can crow "SEE? SEE? I WAS RIGHT!!!!" all you want.

In the meantime, the rest of us will try and enjoy the games if they do good; and look forward to football season if they do bad.

Spot on Front....

Nobody ever said management can do no wrong. People are willing to wait and see if they are right before crapping on decisions made by people who have a lot more experience than we do.

If any of them (Sox Management) told me that my corporate IT strategy sucked, I'd question who the **** they are for saying that. But when it comes to building a baseball team, they are the experts and until the team plays and sucks, I'm not interested in hearing a bunch of know-it-alls tell me how much it is going suck. That's people's right- but it's my right to ignore it too.

Frontman
03-21-2010, 10:36 AM
Spot on Front....

Nobody ever said management can do no wrong. People are willing to wait and see if they are right before crapping on decisions made by people who have a lot more experience than we do.

If any of them (Sox Management) told me that my corporate IT strategy sucked, I'd question who the **** they are for saying that. But when it comes to building a baseball team, they are the experts and until the team plays and sucks, I'm not interested in hearing a bunch of know-it-alls tell me how much it is going suck. That's people's right- but it's my right to ignore it too.

Right. Oney is just a guy. If this was Kenny Williams saying on July 30th, "Quite frankly, this team stunk this year." THEN we have:

a: A person responsible for bringing in talent

and

b: a half-season of baseball played to base the statement on.

Oney spouting off about guys who "never played" or "don't understand baseball" needs to look in the mirror.

OZZIE was the Guillen who played ball, not ONEY.

The same can be said about us. We can comment all we want; but at the end of the day, we might not have all the information in front of us to make an educated decision. We're fans; we might be educated fans, but we're still fans. We have no clue as to the budget, the chemistry, the personalities involved behind the scenes. We can grab a stat and hold it as an example to make our point, but there might be something more to a decision or a move.

The only time I felt the organization was on the verge of making a mistake was the talk of trading Mark Buehrle in 2007. My thought process was how difficult it is to find a talented left handed starter; why would you trade one that's proven away for prospects? Unless someone was going to be a 30-30 Gold Glover for the next 5-10 years; you don't trade away a solid 200 inning 10+ win starter in my opinion.

Thankfully, the Sox didn't do that. Some say I was speaking from the heart and not the head, as Mark was a part of the 2005 team. That is partially true, the 2005 team will always have a special place in my heart. But pitching is a commodity that you don't easily part with. When Dye became a FA this off season? I was disappointed from the heart, but can understand the decision with my brain.

I swear though; if the Sox fanbase becomes known for booing players on opening day, I'm going to be really annoyed. If Jones starts off slow (and say, doesn't hit a home run by his third at bat) I have a feeling the same ones who hated Wise (who, by the way; THANK GOD he was on the Sox last season for 'the catch') will boo Andru by his third at bat.

And that will be very disappointing from where I sit.

russ99
03-21-2010, 11:04 AM
I swear though; if the Sox fanbase becomes known for booing players on opening day, I'm going to be really annoyed. If Jones starts off slow (and say, doesn't hit a home run by his third at bat) I have a feeling the same ones who hated Wise (who, by the way; THANK GOD he was on the Sox last season for 'the catch') will boo Andru by his third at bat.

And that will be very disappointing from where I sit.

Doubtful. IMO the booers of Wise were obviously fans of a certain player sitting on the bench, and were much more upset with Ozzie than Wise's actual performance.

But any buffoon knows that Jones is better than any other option at DH that we have in camp, and in the worst-case Kenny's not getting anyone else for at least a few months.

If you want to be upset with that decision, that's fine but I prefer to support the guys on the team and hope they do well, which considering what they're capable of and have done in the past isn't too much of a stretch.

masloan
03-22-2010, 04:34 AM
Read this article about Andruw Jones. Then check the date it was written. People get way too excited about 25 spring training AB.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/mar/10/sports/sp-plaschke10

Did you actually read the article? It was written on March 10th, 2009 (at the beginning of spring training). It does not cite any success that Jones had up to that point in spring training. It mentions that he "lost a few pounds". I think we can all agree he has lost more than a "few pounds" since last season according to various reports. In addition, his spring training performance has been better than expected. Does this mean he will have a good season? No. All it means is that he is in better shape than last year and so far he has been swinging the bat well. But that article does nothing to support your claim that 25 spring traning AB is nothing to get excited about.

Take a look at this article: http://www.ajc.com/services/content/printedition/2009/03/31/mlbnotes0331.html

On March 31, 2009, Jones was hitting .277 with 1 home run and 4 RBI in 47 ABs. So far this spring, he is hitting .385 with 2 HR and 8 RBI in 26 AB. And anyone who has watched any of the games knows that he has looked pretty good; especially with power to right field.

doublem23
03-22-2010, 04:54 AM
But that article does nothing to support your claim that 25 spring traning AB is nothing to get excited about.

That's what common sense is for.

masloan
03-22-2010, 07:26 AM
That's what common sense is for.

Not sure I can agree with you. A guy who became lazy and out of shape is now in the best shape he has been in over the last 3 years. He is swinging the bat well, so not so sure that it is a matter of common sense. I would say it is more of an opinion.

spawn
03-22-2010, 08:11 AM
Alot of people have the sunshine and rainbows mindset here. It's the only annoying thing I can think of, in an otherwise very good forum.
Yeah, I guess it it does kinda suck that there are people that are optimistic about the team, and yet others that are gonig to take a wait and see approach. Ban 'em all!!!
You put words in my mouth. I never said that. The attitude that the Sox organization can do no wrong is what annoys me.
I challenge you to find posts where someone said this organization can do no wrong. You say a lot of people have that mindset. Prove it.

doublem23
03-22-2010, 08:42 AM
Not sure I can agree with you. A guy who became lazy and out of shape is now in the best shape he has been in over the last 3 years. He is swinging the bat well, so not so sure that it is a matter of common sense. I would say it is more of an opinion.

Basing anything on 25 real AB would be an overreaction, basing anything on 25 Spring AB is downright lunacy. Mark Kotsay's OBP this Spring is over .500... Have him lead off!!! Carlos Quentin is hitting .240... Put him on the bench!!! Jayson Nix's slash is .320/.393/.440... Bench Alexei!!! Josh Kroeger is hitting .333... Start him at 1B this season!!!

masloan
03-22-2010, 10:27 AM
Basing anything on 25 real AB would be an overreaction, basing anything on 25 Spring AB is downright lunacy. Mark Kotsay's OBP this Spring is over .500... Have him lead off!!! Carlos Quentin is hitting .240... Put him on the bench!!! Jayson Nix's slash is .320/.393/.440... Bench Alexei!!! Josh Kroeger is hitting .333... Start him at 1B this season!!!

Please tell me where I am basing anything on 25 ABs? It is not all about performance and statistics. He is in better shape, his swing looks very good so far. He has shown pretty good speed on the base paths. These are all observations that can be made with 1 AB. It isn't always about how many hits or home runs a guy gets. That is why there are many spring training battles. I doubt that every manager at the end of spring training takes a look at the stat sheet and makes their decisions soley based on that. But in those 25 ABs a player can make the team or miss his chance.

jabrch
03-22-2010, 10:36 AM
Doubtful. IMO the booers of Wise were obviously fans of a certain player sitting on the bench, and were much more upset with Ozzie than Wise's actual performance.

I don't know...it is a trend that a very small, but vocal, minority of our fans have become very douchey since 2005. If Jones doesn't hit early, I could see him booed. Maybe not opening day, but maybe so.

Dubs - you coming to OD? :tongue:


Andruw was one of the most talented CFs I ever saw play the game when he was young. I'm happy to wait and see if, after losing weight and being focused, he can regain a fraction of what he had. I'll cheer for whomever wears the uniform as long as they are putting out the effort, and not being stupid out there. I've booed a few Sox players in my lifetime, but not too many, and certainly not until they have earned it over time.