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Stoky44
03-12-2010, 11:08 AM
So this morning on ESPN they were ranking top 10 players by position for fantasy this year. Granted I know that fantasy stats are not nearly the same nor should they be used to judge a player's value on a team. Also of note the brilliant people at ESPN ranked Bacon as #10 at 3B, even though he won't be at 3B this year.

Anyways, I was thinking back to the discussion of how the Sox should not trade Bacon for...well lets not get back to that discussion. But, so many people stated he would be one of the best 2b in the game, and an all star. Do the stats really back that up?

Real question: Where would you rank Bacon in terms of league 2B for the 2010 season?
Is he better than:
Chase Utley
Robinson Cano
Brian Roberts
Dustin Pedroia
Ian Kinsler
Brandon Phillips
Ben Zobrist
Jose Lopez
Felipe Lopez
Placido Polanco

I would say he is not in the top 5 in terms of talent for the 2010 season, I know I will get flamed here for saying that. Where he will rank in 3-5 years is another discussion.

EDIT: This is not to bash Bacon, I like him a lot and love him on the Sox. I think he will be a great player, and is a very good player now. I just thought this would be a good discussion.

HomeFish
03-12-2010, 11:20 AM
Is one season enough to determine anything? Angel Berroa was a middle infielder with a great debut season, and is he even in the majors now?

Stoky44
03-12-2010, 11:24 AM
No one season is not enough to determine if he will be a HOF or one of the greats at 2B, which is not what I was trying to get at.

I just wondered where you would rank him now for the 2010 season, would he be in your top 5 2b this season?

Lets put it this way if you could have any 2b for just this season, not looking at contracts or how they will play in 2011 and beyond, who would be your starting 2b for your 2010 Chicago White Sox.

guillen4life13
03-12-2010, 11:45 AM
So this morning on ESPN they were ranking top 10 players by position for fantasy this year. Granted I know that fantasy stats are not nearly the same nor should they be used to judge a player's value on a team. Also of note the brilliant people at ESPN ranked Bacon as #10 at 3B, even though he won't be at 3B this year.

Anyways, I was thinking back to the discussion of how the Sox should not trade Bacon for...well lets not get back to that discussion. But, so many people stated he would be one of the best 2b in the game, and an all star. Do the stats really back that up?

Real question: Where would you rank Bacon in terms of league 2B for the 2010 season?
Is he better than:
Chase Utley
Rosinson Cano
Brian Roberts
Dustin Pedroia
Ian Kinsler
Branson Phillips
Ben Zobrist
Joel Lopez
Placido Palanco

I would say he is not in the top 5 in terms of talent for the 2010 season, I know I will get flamed here for saying that. Where he will rank in 3-5 years is another discussion.

EDIT: This is not to bash Bacon, I like him a lot and love him on the Sox. I think he will be a great player, and is a very good player now. I just thought this would be a good discussion.

1. Who are these people?
2. Placido Polanco is now a 3B, so he is no longer in the discussion (but that Palanco fellow, on the other hand...).
3. Assuming that you are talking about Felipe Lopez, a career year does not make someone a top five player. I doubt he will replicate his performance this coming season.
4. Zobrist is in the same boat as Lopez. He's going to be 29 this year and has one full season under his belt. It was a very good season, but it's a small sample. That said, it's possible he replicates what he did last year.

I'd more or less expect Beckham to fall into your list as follows:

1. Chase Utley
2. Robinson Cano
3. Dustin Pedroia
4. Brian Roberts
5. Kinsler/Beckham/Zobrist
6. Kinsler/Beckham/Zobrist
7. Kinsler/Beckham/Zobrist
9. Felipe Lopez

I see Beckham definitely being top 7, with a chance at being top 5. Kinsler had a relative down year and Zobrist had a really good year. Let's see how they do.

edit: I'm joking when I rib you on the spelling, but please pay attention to it in the future.

DSpivack
03-12-2010, 11:46 AM
No one season is not enough to determine if he will be a HOF or one of the greats at 2B, which is not what I was trying to get at.

I just wondered where you would rank him now for the 2010 season, would he be in your top 5 2b this season?

Lets put it this way if you could have any 2b for just this season, not looking at contracts or how they will play in 2011 and beyond, who would be your starting 2b for your 2010 Chicago White Sox.

Well, I don't know about ranking them 1-10, but to pick one is easy. Utley.

Stoky44
03-12-2010, 11:49 AM
1. Who are these people?

edit: I'm joking when I rib you on the spelling, but please pay attention to it in the future.



Yeah my bad, my dyslexia and poor spelling comes out a lot of the time, and spell checking doesn't help with names.

And by the way, ESPN talked about Jose Lopez, I have a close friend named Joel Lopez, which I mistakingly typed.

Didn't realize Polanco was moving to 3B, and I ripped ESPN for mistakenly placing Beckham at 3B. Don't I feel dumb.

soltrain21
03-12-2010, 11:55 AM
How can he be a top 5 second baseman when he hasn't played a single regular season game in the MLB at the position?

I understand we all want Gordon to be an amazing player - but let's keep the horses in the stable for a little while.

Domeshot17
03-12-2010, 11:55 AM
Top 5? Without a full season under his belt? No. Top 10-15 for sure. The kid has a chance to be good but it does no one any good to push him into levels he hasnt earned yet. Propects who get that much pressure on them early tend to fold.

guillen4life13
03-12-2010, 11:56 AM
Yeah my bad, my dyslexia and poor spelling comes out a lot of the time, and spell checking doesn't help with names.

And by the way, ESPN talked about Jose Lopez, I have a close friend named Joel Lopez, which I mistakingly typed.

Didn't realize Polanco was moving to 3B, and I ripped ESPN for mistakenly placing Beckham at 3B. Don't I feel dumb.

Sorry for being harsh about it.

We all make mistakes.

All things said and done, I'd expect Beckham to be better than Jose Lopez also. He's a more rounded offensive player.

KenBerryGrab
03-12-2010, 11:59 AM
Roberts might not even pay with his bad back.

Juice16
03-12-2010, 12:08 PM
How can he be a top 5 second baseman when he hasn't played a single regular season game in the MLB at the position?

I understand we all want Gordon to be an amazing player - but let's keep the horses in the stable for a little while.

Thank you for calling him Gordon.

BringHomeDaBacon
03-12-2010, 12:41 PM
I don't think you can consider him a top 5 fantasy second basemen going into the year. Utley, Kinsler, Cano, Phillips, Pedroia, Roberts, Hill and probably even Uggla (because of power) and Asdrubal (because of avg and steals) all have to be ranked higher. What makes Bacon such a tasty pick is his upside and current average draft position. So although he's probably not even in the top 8 - 10 going into the season, he may very well end up being the best value out of ALL second basemen depending on how he develops.

soltrain21
03-12-2010, 12:57 PM
I don't think you can consider him a top 5 fantasy second basemen going into the year. Utley, Kinsler, Cano, Phillips, Pedroia, Roberts, Hill and probably even Uggla (because of power) and Asdrubal (because of avg and steals) all have to be ranked higher. What makes Bacon such a tasty pick is his upside and current average draft position. So although he's probably not even in the top 8 - 10 going into the season, he may very well end up being the best value out of ALL second basemen depending on how he develops.

Man. I hate fantasy baseball.

Marqhead
03-12-2010, 12:58 PM
Man. I hate fantasy baseball.

Fantasy baseball is fine.

Using fantasy stats to judge a players on field performance is not fine.

veeter
03-12-2010, 01:06 PM
Looking at your list, I realize there are a lot of damn good second basemen. They're some of the best players in the game, not just second basemen. That's fine and dandy for all those other teams. I'll take my chances with our guy.

Ranger
03-12-2010, 02:00 PM
Fantasy baseball is fine.

Using fantasy stats to judge a players on field performance is not fine.

The problem with it is that I think it can influence a person's perception of a player when they're talking about putting a real team together. I don't think everyone that plays fantasy baseball is able to completely separate what makes a good fantasy player from what makes a good real player.

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2010, 02:07 PM
The problem with it is that I think it can influence a person's perception of a player when they're talking about putting a real team together. I don't think everyone that plays fantasy baseball is able to completely separate what makes a good fantasy player from what makes a good real player.
Elaborate. Don't play fantasy baseball, just curious what the hell you're talking about.

Marqhead
03-12-2010, 02:13 PM
The problem with it is that I think it can influence a person's perception of a player when they're talking about putting a real team together. I don't think everyone that plays fantasy baseball is able to completely separate what makes a good fantasy player from what makes a good real player.

Absolutely. I can win a fantasy baseball league by watching zero games a year, all I need to know is the stats. You can't build a real baseball team the same way, but a lot of people use their fantasy knowledge to say "hey, player X is an awesome player."

SephClone89
03-12-2010, 02:14 PM
Elaborate. Don't play fantasy baseball, just curious what the hell you're talking about.

Fantasy baseball isn't a team sport. You draft a team of players with the best stats (usually just the top five stats). It ignores role players or how a team fits together.

Marqhead
03-12-2010, 02:16 PM
Fantasy baseball isn't a team sport. You draft a team of players with the best stats (usually just the top five stats). It ignores role players or how a team fits together.

It also completely ignores defense.

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2010, 02:25 PM
Fantasy baseball isn't a team sport. You draft a team of players with the best stats (usually just the top five stats). It ignores role players or how a team fits together.
I just don't think it mars very many people's analysis of the game.

pythons007
03-12-2010, 02:34 PM
Fantasy baseball is fine.

Using fantasy stats to judge a players on field performance is not fine.


I completely agree with this statement.

Gordon is going to be a tremendous talent, and I look forward to see him on thd southside for years to come. However, he doesn't belong in any disucssion of top 5 2B until he proves he can play the position and continue to progress at the plate.

pythons007
03-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Elaborate. Don't play fantasy baseball, just curious what the hell you're talking about.

Well the number one thing that isn't included in fantasy baseball is defense. So anything defensively is out the door.

A good fantasy player is someone that produces good offensive numbers in the standard categories, runs, homers, rbi, sb, and average.

And that is all that matters!

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2010, 02:38 PM
Well the number one thing that isn't included in fantasy baseball is defense. So anything defensively is out the door.

A good fantasy player is someone that produces good offensive numbers in the standard categories, runs, homers, rbi, sb, and average.
Don't those tend to be good players? I don't care for counting statistics normally, I just don't think it's ever really a hindrance to analysis to judge a player statistically--to a degree.

Marqhead
03-12-2010, 02:40 PM
Don't those tend to be good players? I don't care for counting statistics normally, I just don't think it's ever really a hindrance to analysis to judge a player statistically--to a degree.

It's a great starting place. Fantasy baseball has helped me learn exponentially more about the players and the prospects, but it shouldn't be the end all be all when it comes to analysis. That's my main point. But yes, generally the top fantasy players are going to be the top players in the game.

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2010, 02:41 PM
It's a great starting place. Fantasy baseball has helped me learn exponentially more about the players and the prospects, but it shouldn't be the end all be all when it comes to analysis. That's my main point. But yes, generally the top fantasy players are going to be the top players in the game.
I understand what you're saying. I've just never seen it treated as the end-all be-all by anyone with a brain.

pythons007
03-12-2010, 02:42 PM
Don't those tend to be good players? I don't care for counting statistics normally, I just don't think it's ever really a hindrance to analysis to judge a player statistically--to a degree.

Yes, but it takes out the defensive side of the game. Let's use David Ortiz 2 or 3 years ago. He's an absolute butcher in the field, but he was a top 1B. However, he was mainly used as a DH, but because he played enough games at 1B he was considered a 1B. If what I said makes sense....

Fantasy baseball doesn't get the full scope of the game.

Marqhead
03-12-2010, 02:47 PM
I understand what you're saying. I've just never seen it treated as the end-all be-all by anyone with a brain.

Most people don't, and the OP qualified his question in the same way. But there are plenty of people out there who just use fantasy stats as the only tool, though I also don't know too many of them.

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2010, 02:49 PM
Yes, but it takes out the defensive side of the game. Let's use David Ortiz 2 or 3 years ago. He's an absolute butcher in the field, but he was a top 1B. However, he was mainly used as a DH, but because he played enough games at 1B he was considered a 1B. If what I said makes sense....

Fantasy baseball doesn't get the full scope of the game.
Well, yeah. But how does that obscure someone's analysis?

Most people don't, and the OP qualified his question in the same way. But there are plenty of people out there who just use fantasy stats as the only tool, though I also don't know too many of them.
I guess I just don't know these people. They represent such a small percentage of the population that referencing them seems, well, pointless to me.

Marqhead
03-12-2010, 02:53 PM
I guess I just don't know these people. They represent such a small percentage of the population that referencing them seems, well, pointless to me.

It all started with someone saying they hated fantasy baseball. I was merely explaining why I don't and that I think it's very useful to a point. :shrug:

Let's all hope Beckham has a long illustrious career on the south side.

Craig Grebeck
03-12-2010, 02:55 PM
It all started with someone saying they hated fantasy baseball. I was merely explaining why I don't and that I think it's very useful to a point. :shrug:
I'm just waiting around for Ranger.

I guess it's like complaining about folks who mow the lawn barefoot.

Marqhead
03-12-2010, 03:16 PM
I'm just waiting around for Ranger.

I guess it's like complaining about folks who mow the lawn barefoot.

Ok. I'm not expecting him to say anything drastically different than what myself or Python did.

Mohoney
03-13-2010, 12:31 PM
Also of note the brilliant people at ESPN ranked Bacon as #10 at 3B, even though he won't be at 3B this year.

In all fairness, Beckham will have 3B eligibility in some leagues because of games played at the position last year. Perhaps ESPN's leagues have him eligible at 3B, hence the ranking.

munchman33
03-13-2010, 01:26 PM
In all fairness, Beckham will have 3B eligibility in some leagues because of games played at the position last year. Perhaps ESPN's leagues have him eligible at 3B, hence the ranking.

Yes, that's exactly right. Anyone laughing at this is doing so out of no understanding of how fantasy sports work. You aren't eligible at a position you've not played before. Any league that makes Beckham eligible at 2B to start the year isn't a true league, it's either modded or run by people who don't know what they're doing.

Now, people will draft Beckham because he will have 2B eligibility soon (depending on the league, it'll be anywhere from a few games to a month at 2B). He's run of the mill at 3B if he reaches his potential, and one of the best in baseball if he does so at 2B. So his value is a lot higher than a normal 3B would be. They're taking into account his future eligibility.

munchman33
03-13-2010, 01:29 PM
The problem with it is that I think it can influence a person's perception of a player when they're talking about putting a real team together. I don't think everyone that plays fantasy baseball is able to completely separate what makes a good fantasy player from what makes a good real player.

When you say "I don't think everyone" do you mean most people who play fantasy baseball or a few people? Because the vast majority do understand the difference, and play fantasy baseball because it's more baseball. The people that don't understand the difference make up a very small contingent of idiots who are idiots whether or not they're playing fantasy baseball.

A. Cavatica
03-13-2010, 04:10 PM
Is he better than:

Chase Utley - no
Robinson Cano - probably, I don't think much of Cano
Brian Roberts - probably
Dustin Pedroia - not yet
Ian Kinsler - not yet
Brandon Phillips - yes
Ben Zobrist - yes
Jose Lopez - yes
Felipe Lopez - yes
Placido Polanco - yes

soxlug
03-14-2010, 11:05 AM
I think you put him after Brandon Phillips, but as far as potential goes you could put him higher. My thought is I hope the Sox give him regular time off during the season. I may worry about this too much but it is his first 162 game season and with Nix batting well against left handed pitching Ozzie should plug him in at times to rest Gordon. Is this the right line of thinking?
I really like him it will be interesting to see what his talent will bring to the lineup during the 2010 campaign (Rios has been looking good btw.)

soltrain21
03-14-2010, 11:17 AM
Chase Utley - no
Robinson Cano - probably, I don't think much of Cano
Brian Roberts - probably
Dustin Pedroia - not yet
Ian Kinsler - not yet
Brandon Phillips - yes
Ben Zobrist - yes
Jose Lopez - yes
Felipe Lopez - yes
Placido Polanco - yes

How can you honestly say these things right now? I think everyone needs to take a few steps back on the Gordon love at least until like June.

He had a GOOD rookie year. We've seen plenty of players have good rookie years. I think he will be a good player, but jeez people. Let's slow down.

ode to veeck
03-14-2010, 09:01 PM
So this morning on ESPN they were ranking top 10 players by position for fantasy this year. Granted I know that fantasy stats are not nearly the same nor should they be used to judge a player's value on a team. Also of note the brilliant people at ESPN ranked Bacon as #10 at 3B, even though he won't be at 3B this year.

Anyways, I was thinking back to the discussion of how the Sox should not trade Bacon for...well lets not get back to that discussion. But, so many people stated he would be one of the best 2b in the game, and an all star. Do the stats really back that up?

Real question: Where would you rank Bacon in terms of league 2B for the 2010 season?
Is he better than:
Chase Utley
Robinson Cano
Brian Roberts
Dustin Pedroia
Ian Kinsler
Brandon Phillips
Ben Zobrist
Jose Lopez
Felipe Lopez
Placido Polanco

I would say he is not in the top 5 in terms of talent for the 2010 season, I know I will get flamed here for saying that. Where he will rank in 3-5 years is another discussion.

EDIT: This is not to bash Bacon, I like him a lot and love him on the Sox. I think he will be a great player, and is a very good player now. I just thought this would be a good discussion.

uhh who is bacon?

Thome_Fan
03-14-2010, 09:48 PM
So this morning on ESPN they were ranking top 10 players by position for fantasy this year. Granted I know that fantasy stats are not nearly the same nor should they be used to judge a player's value on a team. Also of note the brilliant people at ESPN ranked Bacon as #10 at 3B, even though he won't be at 3B this year.

Anyways, I was thinking back to the discussion of how the Sox should not trade Bacon for...well lets not get back to that discussion. But, so many people stated he would be one of the best 2b in the game, and an all star. Do the stats really back that up?

Real question: Where would you rank Bacon in terms of league 2B for the 2010 season?
Is he better than:
Chase Utley
Robinson Cano
Brian Roberts
Dustin Pedroia
Ian Kinsler
Brandon Phillips
Ben Zobrist
Jose Lopez
Felipe Lopez
Placido Polanco

I would say he is not in the top 5 in terms of talent for the 2010 season, I know I will get flamed here for saying that. Where he will rank in 3-5 years is another discussion.

EDIT: This is not to bash Bacon, I like him a lot and love him on the Sox. I think he will be a great player, and is a very good player now. I just thought this would be a good discussion.


Are you really listing Zobrist as a top 2b? I realize he had a good year, but he has shown nothing but probable journeyman talent overall. And this is from a dude who is friends with his brother, believe me I want to see him do well.

soltrain21
03-14-2010, 10:09 PM
Are you really listing Zobrist as a top 2b? I realize he had a good year, but he has shown nothing but probable journeyman talent overall. And this is from a dude who is friends with his brother, believe me I want to see him do well.

Saying he had a good year is a complete understatement - and he is only 28.

parlaycard
03-15-2010, 10:49 AM
[QUOTE=Stoky44;2443634Also of note the brilliant people at ESPN ranked Bacon as #10 at 3B, even though he won't be at 3B this year. [/QUOTE]

This is because fantasy baseball wise, Beckham qualifies at third base. If Beckham was slated to be the White Sox closer this season, he didnt pitch any games last year.

Hence, for fantasy baseball purposes, he is a third baseman until he plays enough games at another position to qualify. This all depends on your fantasy baseball leagues rules. Some leagues require a player to play 10 or 20 games at a new position until they qualify.

parlaycard
03-15-2010, 10:52 AM
Are you really listing Zobrist as a top 2b? I realize he had a good year, but he has shown nothing but probable journeyman talent overall. And this is from a dude who is friends with his brother, believe me I want to see him do well.

Fantasy wise Zobrist is one of the top 2b, because of all of the positions he qualifies at.

asindc
03-15-2010, 10:59 AM
This is because fantasy baseball wise, Beckham qualifies at third base. If Beckham was slated to be the White Sox closer this season, he didnt pitch any games last year.

Hence, for fantasy baseball purposes, he is a third baseman until he plays enough games at another position to qualify. This all depends on your fantasy baseball leagues rules. Some leagues require a player to play 10 or 20 games at a new position until they qualify.

In my league, if a player starts at a position on Opening Day, then he qualifies at that position for the rest of the year. This is based on the theory that no team is going to start anyone other than their best lineup on Opening Day.

JermaineDye05
03-15-2010, 12:48 PM
Beckham appears to be adjusting well...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=7193479&topic_id=7193479&c_id=cws

SephClone89
03-15-2010, 01:32 PM
Beckham appears to be adjusting well...

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=7193479&topic_id=7193479&c_id=cws

I watched this a half-dozen times last night... Am I missing something? Where's the double-play?

JermaineDye05
03-15-2010, 01:34 PM
I watched this a half-dozen times last night... Am I missing something? Where's the double-play?

Haha, yeah they've been off on a couple of these descriptions for the highlights.

JermaineDye05
03-15-2010, 01:51 PM
I was literally just reading an article on the 2010 team and when I got to the part on Beckham, this started playing on my itunes which is on shuffle btw:

4N1iwQxiHrs

UofCSoxFan
03-15-2010, 02:08 PM
Also of note the brilliant people at ESPN ranked Bacon as #10 at 3B, even though he won't be at 3B this year.



I enjoy ripping on ESPN as much as the next guy, but for fantasy baseball purposes, Beckham will have elligibility at 3B in pretty much every league based on what he did last year. In 2009 he started out as a SS only to begin the year and only earned 3B elligibilty after playing 10 games at 3B.

Leagues typically give guys elligiblity at a position if they played x amount of games there the last year (it's usually like 40 or something). For players that obvously switch the next year, a position is ususally added before the season. If players switch unexpededly mid-year, or are versitile (like a Ben Zobrist), the earn elligibility after 10 games at that spot.