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Dub25
03-12-2010, 12:54 AM
I'm listening to B & B on the Score Podcast site and they are talking about KW & Ozzie being at odds more than what we know. If this is true, who would you go with? To be honest, I didn't like KW throwing Oz under the bus during Sox Fest when it came to bringing back Thome. As much as I will appriciate KW building a winner in 2005, this year will be the first time Oz will have his team on paper. I think Oz should get a year with this and if it fails then KW should say, ok, we will do it my way again. I'm afraid with Oz on Twitter and MLB doing the reality show that there could be distractions which I believe both would be to blame. However, between KW not agreeing with this year's roster and everything else going on with Twitter and Oz's web site being shot down, that KW might blame Oz. I don't know, what do you guys think?

DumpJerry
03-12-2010, 12:58 AM
No worries here. It will be very entertaining. Cub fans will be envious of the attention we're getting thereby diminishing their spotlight, so expect being told it is a bad thing.

ilsox7
03-12-2010, 01:18 AM
I wouldn't pay attention to anything some blathering idiots on sports radio say.

CWSpalehoseCWS
03-12-2010, 02:05 AM
KW and Ozzie are not the only GM/Manager to be at odds. I'm sure every other clubs goes through the same issues. Human nature.

jabrch
03-12-2010, 02:24 AM
I wouldn't pay attention to anything some blathering idiots on sports radio say.

True...and I also don't pay any attention to what KW and OG say. Mostly it feels like misdirection anyhow.

RadioheadRocks
03-12-2010, 04:35 AM
I wouldn't pay attention to anything some blathering idiots on sports radio say.

Sports radio... making more mountains out of molehills than the Wonderbra.

southside rocks
03-12-2010, 07:43 AM
I wouldn't pay attention to anything some blathering idiots on sports radio say.

Agree. When I had satellite radio, I really liked listening to HomePlate on XM, the hosts actually discussed things and analyzed aspects of teams and games. On the AM sports radio stations that I've heard -- the ones here in Chicago -- everything's a fight, a crisis, a dispute, a big freakin' deal. They don't want their listeners to think, they want them to react emotionally, and the louder the better. It's stupid, and boring. I can listen to Mully and Hanley sometimes, and of course I love Ranger, but the rest of the drivel is just awful.

If KW and Ozzie are not totally sympatico every moment of the season, I don't care, I only care that they're both holding the Commissioner's Trophy when it's all over.

soxfanatlanta
03-12-2010, 08:12 AM
If KW and Ozzie are not totally sympatico every moment of the season, I don't care, I only care that they're both holding the Commissioner's Trophy when it's all over.

You summed it up nicely.

Dibbs
03-12-2010, 08:23 AM
If I had to pick one to leave, I would want Ozzie gone for sure.

asindc
03-12-2010, 09:29 AM
Yawn...

canOcorn
03-12-2010, 09:37 AM
I think Ozzie should be held accountable for his insistence on the current DH plan. It's obvious Kenny isn't comfortable with the personnel and somewhat disturbing that he lets Ozzie call the shots on the roster. One of these guys needs to take the fall if/when the DH situation goes FUBAR.

veeter
03-12-2010, 09:43 AM
Typical off-season crap. Giving up newspapers and radio is VERY good for your health.

BringBackBlkJack
03-12-2010, 09:50 AM
Let the media make up some bull**** out of nothing. I'm sure both KW and Ozzie would much rather the media scrutiny be on them than on the players. It's almost a patented Ozzie move. He's like Jeff Goldblum with the flare in Jurassic Park... except he does a much better job.

dickallen15
03-12-2010, 10:26 AM
I think Ozzie should be held accountable for his insistence on the current DH plan. It's obvious Kenny isn't comfortable with the personnel and somewhat disturbing that he lets Ozzie call the shots on the roster. One of these guys needs to take the fall if/when the DH situation goes FUBAR.

No he shouldn't. KW is his boss. If he thinks Ozzie's idea is a bad one, he can do something about it. If he doesn't, its on him.

One thing about Ozzie that has to be a little disconcerning, is he seems to be trying to get a lot more commercial this year with the Twitter and facebook and wanting his own website and the reality show. If you recall, Ditka really lost any of his effectiveness when he spent most of his day making commercials. The same thing can happen here.

tebman
03-12-2010, 10:39 AM
Joe Cowley needs to fill space and the radio yakkers need to fill time. It's a lot easier to write "Ozzie vs. Kenny" than it is to actually find out what they're talking about.

The newspaper and broadcast jesters have a real gift in Guillen and Williams: they both say what's on their minds and put their emotions out front. It makes a writer's job so much easier.

canOcorn
03-12-2010, 11:00 AM
No he shouldn't. KW is his boss. If he thinks Ozzie's idea is a bad one, he can do something about it. If he doesn't, its on him.



That's why I said it was somewhat disturbing that Kenny lets Ozzie call roster shots. It's apparent that Kenny has basically said, "fine Ozzie, quit your queefing. Here's the roster you've been wanting all these years". I'm just hoping he lets him fall on his sword if/when it fails.

HomeFish
03-12-2010, 11:20 AM
The media loves to hype this stuff up. Anyway, what are the specific differences between what Kenny and Ozzie wanted? What would Kenny be doing differently, allegedly?

Ozzie getting fired is pretty inconceivable to me right now, to tell the truth.

MARTINMVP
03-12-2010, 11:33 AM
The WSCR/Chicago duo of Boers and Bernstein always claim to have the inside scoop or a source that gives them secret information. I'm not a regular listener to their show, so I can't tell you if some of their inside stuff has ever come to fruition, but when I do hear Terry Boers talk about "his people," I can't help but roll my eyes. From a few things I've heard throughout the years, the guy is a cranky old man who doesn't talk to a lot of people, and I find it hard to believe that he has maintained relationships long enough to where his old contacts (from his days as a writer) still are willing to talk to him.

#1swisher
03-12-2010, 11:46 AM
The media loves to hype this stuff up. Anyway, what are the specific differences between what Kenny and Ozzie wanted? What would Kenny be doing differently, allegedly?

Ozzie getting fired is pretty inconceivable to me right now, to tell the truth.

Exactly, and don't forget they're doing a reality show.

thedudeabides
03-12-2010, 12:04 PM
I think Ozzie should be held accountable for his insistence on the current DH plan. It's obvious Kenny isn't comfortable with the personnel and somewhat disturbing that he lets Ozzie call the shots on the roster. One of these guys needs to take the fall if/when the DH situation goes FUBAR.

Kenny is in charge of the roster. If he isn't comfortable with the current roster, that's nobody's fault but his own. Yes, he should listen to his manager, but he shouldn't let him have final say on the players he acquires in the offseason, and he never has before. And I can't imagine he did all of these things at Ozzie's request, all the while hating the transactions he was making.

Anyway, I think the stuff about Kenny being uncomfortable with the roster already is a complete media fabrication.

What's his plan? Let Ozzie pick the players, and have the team suck so he can prove he was wrong? That would make him the worst GM in baseball. This all seems like nonesense to me.

RedHeadPaleHoser
03-12-2010, 12:29 PM
Anyway, I think the stuff about Kenny being uncomfortable with the roster already is a complete media fabrication.

Someone else here mentioned B&B in this thread. They went over and over about the comments made as Soxfest - KW stating "It's the roster Ozzie wants" as the smoking gun type of evidence that there's tension. I wasn't as Soxfest - is this perception legit?

beasly213
03-12-2010, 12:32 PM
The WSCR/Chicago duo of Boers and Bernstein always claim to have the inside scoop or a source that gives them secret information. I'm not a regular listener to their show, so I can't tell you if some of their inside stuff has ever come to fruition, but when I do hear Terry Boers talk about "his people," I can't help but roll my eyes. From a few things I've heard throughout the years, the guy is a cranky old man who doesn't talk to a lot of people, and I find it hard to believe that he has maintained relationships long enough to where his old contacts (from his days as a writer) still are willing to talk to him.


I have found that more often than not Bores; "people" are usually right. And it's pretty obvious that KW and Ozzie are not in agreement on how the team is made up. Kenny was trying to sign Thome and Damon while Ozzie seems to really like his team.
The bottom line though is both guys want to win, they just differ in opinion on which is the best way to do that.

thedudeabides
03-12-2010, 01:18 PM
Someone else here mentioned B&B in this thread. They went over and over about the comments made as Soxfest - KW stating "It's the roster Ozzie wants" as the smoking gun type of evidence that there's tension. I wasn't as Soxfest - is this perception legit?


Most of the conversation there was in regards to Thome re-signing. Which was put on Ozzie. Never did it seem like it was defiant in nature. Kenny talked a lot about Ozzie wanting a different type of roster, and the organizational philosophy changing.

I don't listen to B&B, but to me it sounds like they are trying to make a lot out of nothing.

Like I said if Kenny hates the roster already, which I highly doubt, he has nobody to blame but himself.

Jim Shorts
03-12-2010, 02:37 PM
People gotta stop listening to what Kenny and Ozzie say publicly. They're on our side, but they're still spin doctors.

MARTINMVP
03-12-2010, 04:00 PM
Chet Coppock posted this on his Facebook about an hour ago...

"kenny williams and ozzzie guillen will wind up going 12 rounds for the 35th street heavyweight title....ya heard it here first....."

beasly213
03-12-2010, 04:54 PM
Chet Coppock posted this on his Facebook about an hour ago...

"kenny williams and ozzzie guillen will wind up going 12 rounds for the 35th street heavyweight title....ya heard it here first....."





Actually you would have heard it from B and B first Chet.

Jim Shorts
03-12-2010, 05:15 PM
Chet Coppock posted this on his Facebook about an hour ago...

"kenny williams and ozzzie guillen will wind up going 12 rounds for the 35th street heavyweight title....ya heard it here first....."




Do you remember the last time Chester was relevant? At all?

oeo
03-12-2010, 05:43 PM
I have found that more often than not Bores; "people" are usually right. And it's pretty obvious that KW and Ozzie are not in agreement on how the team is made up. Kenny was trying to sign Thome and Damon while Ozzie seems to really like his team.
The bottom line though is both guys want to win, they just differ in opinion on which is the best way to do that.

Once again, Ozzie has to really like his team. He's the manager, he has to be in the clubhouse with these guys all year. Saying we have a hole here or a hole there just puts him in a bad position from day one. He didn't want Thome because Thome handcuffs him as a manager. He's completely one-dimensional. If it was Ozzie's call on Thome and Ozzie clearly doesn't want anyone else added (according to some), then why were they even in discussions with Damon? The dots are not connecting here.

Also, why would Kenny even give Ozzie "his type of team" (as it's being known as) if they were in disagreement?

dickallen15
03-12-2010, 06:12 PM
Once again, Ozzie has to really like his team. He's the manager, he has to be in the clubhouse with these guys all year. Saying we have a hole here or a hole there just puts him in a bad position from day one. He didn't want Thome because Thome handcuffs him as a manager. He's completely one-dimensional. If it was Ozzie's call on Thome and Ozzie clearly doesn't want anyone else added (according to some), then why were they even in discussions with Damon? The dots are not connecting here.

Also, why would Kenny even give Ozzie "his type of team" (as it's being known as) if they were in disagreement?


This post is laughable. Thome handcuffs Ozzie? How did Thomas and Everett handcuff him in 2005?

tick53
03-12-2010, 06:49 PM
This too shall pass.

oeo
03-12-2010, 06:52 PM
This post is laughable. Thome handcuffs Ozzie? How did Thomas and Everett handcuff him in 2005?

Thome can't even run anymore. He jogs. Doubles are singles, a single or walk takes 3 hits to get him in.

And Everett is just about the worst example. He wasn't your typical DH, in fact, he was a crappy DH.

dickallen15
03-12-2010, 07:08 PM
Thome can't even run anymore. He jogs. Doubles are singles, a single or walk takes 3 hits to get him in.

And Everett is just about the worst example. He wasn't your typical DH, in fact, he was a crappy DH.

He's the best example. If anyone would have handcuffed Ozzie as you suggest, its a guy like Everett who didn't provide much offense and Frank Thomas who had to hit a home run because he in 2005 would make Jim Thome look like Rickey Henderson, and it was Ozzie's, errr the White Sox', most successful season.
The White Sox have had plenty of guys who couldn't run play for them. The job is DH. You don't have to run much. You just have to hit.

HomeFish
03-12-2010, 07:08 PM
I gotta agree with Ozzie here on Thome. My issue is not so much the speed, but the fact that when a slugger gets to a certain age, there's too much risk of diminishing skills.

dickallen15
03-12-2010, 07:25 PM
I gotta agree with Ozzie here on Thome. My issue is not so much the speed, but the fact that when a slugger gets to a certain age, there's too much risk of diminishing skills.

But its not like they would have been on the hook for huge money with him. They could have released him or talked him into retiring. I'm sure if Thome couldn't play he wouldn't go out on the field and embarrass himself.

I just hope the real reason they didn't sign Thome, and I'm really not buying all that Soxfest drama as I think they knew the answer long before but didn't want Soxfest to be the "why not Thome" fest, is they have an upgrade in mind.

Brian26
03-12-2010, 08:06 PM
The WSCR/Chicago duo of Boers and Bernstein always claim to have the inside scoop or a source that gives them secret information. I'm not a regular listener to their show, so I can't tell you if some of their inside stuff has ever come to fruition, but when I do hear Terry Boers talk about "his people," I can't help but roll my eyes. From a few things I've heard throughout the years, the guy is a cranky old man who doesn't talk to a lot of people, and I find it hard to believe that he has maintained relationships long enough to where his old contacts (from his days as a writer) still are willing to talk to him.

He's a ****ing clown. There are guys on WSI who have closer relationships with the Sox organization than Terry Boers.

russ99
03-12-2010, 10:42 PM
That's really bad reporting.

We all know Kenny and Ozzie have very different personalities and interests, but it's all about the job at hand, and neither want to work with someone else.

Ozzie's quotes after the "website issue" are total evidence of that.

DSpivack
03-12-2010, 10:48 PM
That's really bad reporting.

Reporting? What does the B&B show have to do with reporting anything?

oeo
03-13-2010, 05:06 AM
He's the best example. If anyone would have handcuffed Ozzie as you suggest, its a guy like Everett who didn't provide much offense and Frank Thomas who had to hit a home run because he in 2005 would make Jim Thome look like Rickey Henderson, and it was Ozzie's, errr the White Sox', most successful season.
The White Sox have had plenty of guys who couldn't run play for them. The job is DH. You don't have to run much. You just have to hit.

I think 2005 Frank is pretty comparable to Thome. Thome needs to hit a homerun these days to score, as well. Again, Thome was told not to run last year to avoid injury. He was actually jogging. I'm amazed he was even able to leg out the 15 doubles that he did.

Thome is a one-dimensional hitter, doesn't give you anything defensively, and makes Paulie look like Rickey Henderson at this point in his career.

Everett is the worst example because he at least gave some versatility. What's laughable is people who think Thome would be a difference maker. We're better off going after someone mid-season.

dickallen15
03-13-2010, 08:31 AM
I think 2005 Frank is pretty comparable to Thome. Thome needs to hit a homerun these days to score, as well. Again, Thome was told not to run last year to avoid injury. He was actually jogging. I'm amazed he was even able to leg out the 15 doubles that he did.

Thome is a one-dimensional hitter, doesn't give you anything defensively, and makes Paulie look like Rickey Henderson at this point in his career.

Everett is the worst example because he at least gave some versatility. What's laughable is people who think Thome would be a difference maker. We're better off going after someone mid-season.

He led the Sox in OBP had 15 2b, 23 hr and 74 rbi in 345 AB and an OPS+ of 122. If Andruw Jones does that or Alex Rios, people will say they were great. He is certainly not Albert Pujols but definitely could have made a one or two game difference considering what the White Sox are using as an alternative. He can't run but he can score runs. It may shock you but he scored 3 less runs than Gordon Beckham last season in 13 less plate appearances for the White Sox.

Lip Man 1
03-13-2010, 12:38 PM
And how many situations was Thome NOT able to score on a hit, say when he was standing on second base?

Not trying to knock him but as I said months ago, it was time to turn the page, and get balance back into the lineup. Not simply "home run, strikeout or nothing."

Lip

oeo
03-13-2010, 12:43 PM
He led the Sox in OBP had 15 2b, 23 hr and 74 rbi in 345 AB and an OPS+ of 122. If Andruw Jones does that or Alex Rios, people will say they were great. He is certainly not Albert Pujols but definitely could have made a one or two game difference considering what the White Sox are using as an alternative. He can't run but he can score runs. It may shock you but he scored 3 less runs than Gordon Beckham last season in 13 less plate appearances for the White Sox.

If Alex Rios does that as a centerfielder, with good defense, and 20-30 steals to boot, of course he will be great. If Andruw Jones did it, what would you be complaining about? Putting up Thome's numbers while not being slow as **** AND giving you the option to use him in the outfield. I don't even mind a middle of the order guy being slow, it's not their job to be a speed burner. However, when you can't even run anymore, I'd say you're done other than a platoon role/pinch hitter. It's not all about hitting, you still need to be able to run the bases a bit. As evidenced by last year, Thome can't do it anymore.

dickallen15
03-13-2010, 01:09 PM
The object is to score runs. What difference does it make if a guy is slow if he scores runs at a higher rate than a guy who is fast? For as slow as you make Thome out to be, and Konerko and Thomas were still slower, he scored runs at a respectable clip. About the same clip Gordon Beckham scored runs last year. He also drove in runs at a decent rate. He was a pretty productive player whether you like to watch him run or not.

asindc
03-13-2010, 01:30 PM
The object is to score runs. What difference does it make if a guy is slow if he scores runs at a higher rate than a guy who is fast? For as slow as you make Thome out to be, and Konerko and Thomas were still slower, he scored runs at a respectable clip. About the same clip Gordon Beckham scored runs last year. He also drove in runs at a decent rate. He was a pretty productive player whether you like to watch him run or not.

It is not just that he had trouble scoring once he got on base, he prevented those behind him from scoring because everyone behind him had to run at his pace. It affected the lineup for the next 3-4 hitters, at least. It's like having a running back who can take it to the house from at least 40 yards out, but has trouble scoring once inside the red zone. Actually, it is worse because at least in football you can give the ball to someone else.

Listen, I would welcome Thome back if the rules allowed him to be pinch-run for every time he reached base without having to come out of the game. Since that is not allowable, his lack of ability to run the bases effectively, despite his high IQ, is a major detriment.

Jim Shorts
03-13-2010, 04:57 PM
It's also forgotten that it took Thome 6-8 hours to prepare for a game where all he was going to do was hit and was instructed to jog.

I think both Ozzie and Kenny would want to keep him for sentimental reasons, but it's a business not a game. They both expect Thome's skills to diminish drastically this season. That's why he's not signed, IMO

Jim Shorts
03-13-2010, 04:58 PM
it is not just that he had trouble scoring once he got on base, he prevented those behind him from scoring because everyone behind him had to run at his pace. It affected the lineup for the next 3-4 hitters, at least. It's like having a running back who can take it to the house from at least 40 yards out, but has trouble scoring once inside the red zone. Actually, it is worse because at least in football you can give the ball to someone else.

Listen, i would welcome thome back if the rules allowed him to be pinch-run for every time he reached base without having to come out of the game. Since that is not allowable, his lack of ability to run the bases effectively, despite his high iq, is a major detriment.

+1

dickallen15
03-13-2010, 05:10 PM
It is not just that he had trouble scoring once he got on base, he prevented those behind him from scoring because everyone behind him had to run at his pace. It affected the lineup for the next 3-4 hitters, at least. It's like having a running back who can take it to the house from at least 40 yards out, but has trouble scoring once inside the red zone. Actually, it is worse because at least in football you can give the ball to someone else.

Listen, I would welcome Thome back if the rules allowed him to be pinch-run for every time he reached base without having to come out of the game. Since that is not allowable, his lack of ability to run the bases effectively, despite his high IQ, is a major detriment.

No its not. Its like having a running back who averages 4.0 yards a carry and scores 20 TD, but liking a guy who averages 3.8 yards and scores 5 TD because he is faster. Thome drove in runs and scored them at the same pace Gordon Beckham scored them last year, and scored them at a higher rate than Rios did with the Sox, but Rios did run back to the dugout quicker. Your analogy is weak considering the guys behind Thome were just as slow as him.