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mantis1212
03-11-2010, 01:35 PM
Todd Helton signed an extension through 2013 with the Rockies, presumably to retire with the same team he started with in 1997. What do you think- Hall of Famer?

Career numbers right now:

.328 BA
.427 OBP
325 HR
2,134 Hits
1,202 RBI
3 Gold Gloves

Some may consider his numbers to be inflated due to the home field; some may also consider that there are no Rockies in the Hall of Fame currently- who better to be the first one?

I don't remember ever hearing his name linked with PEDs- I think he'll get in eventually.

TheOldRoman
03-11-2010, 02:02 PM
His name was linked to PEDs. Cardinals broadcaster Wayne Hagan made a comment about him taking steroids, to which he was publically furious. Link. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2018289)

I don't think he did steroids. He is still a good hitter, but his power numbers started dropping well before testing. He only had two really monster years homer wise, and those came at ages 26-27. Roger Maris was similar, except his biggest seasons came at 25 and 26. He tailed off before others, but I don't see anything in his numbers that jump out.

jabrch
03-11-2010, 02:19 PM
For him to make the HOF he'd need to really pick it up. Without ~500 HRs or 3000 hits, I don't see him getting in.

guillen4life13
03-11-2010, 02:29 PM
For him to make the HOF he'd need to really pick it up. Without ~500 HRs or 3000 hits, I don't see him getting in.

If he continues with his career BA, OBP and OPS, he should also finish with around 425 HR.

I think he would deserve a serious look. Maybe not first ballot, but eventually he should make it.

jabrch
03-11-2010, 02:33 PM
If he continues with his career BA, OBP and OPS, he should also finish with around 425 HR.

I think he would deserve a serious look. Maybe not first ballot, but eventually he should make it.


I'd vote no...in this park, in this era, 425 HRs is just not that impressive.

Will McGriff get in with his 493?

Bags with 449?

Juan Gone with 434?

Darrell Evans 414?

Giambi/Vlad?

Hell, Andruw Jones has 388. After he hits 50 this year, that will be 438!

mantis1212
03-11-2010, 02:37 PM
I'd vote no...in this park, in this era, 425 HRs is just not that impressive.

Will McGriff get in with his 493?

Bags with 449?

Juan Gone with 434?

Darrell Evans 414?

Giambi/Vlad?

Hell, Andruw Jones has 388. After he hits 50 this year, that will be 438!

The HR would definitely not get him in by themselves, but he has hit 500 doubles and a .994 OPS so far. I also think being the face of an organiztion that has no hall-of-famers for some long might end up getting him in.

jabrch
03-11-2010, 02:51 PM
The HR would definitely not get him in by themselves, but he has hit 500 doubles and a .994 OPS so far. I also think being the face of an organiztion that has no hall-of-famers for some long might end up getting him in.


I could see it...I wouldn't vote for him, but his presence in the HOF wouldn't bother me. I think I'd vote for him (assuming he maintains til the end of this contract) over fringe HOF candidates like Rice and Santo.

guillen4life13
03-11-2010, 02:58 PM
I'd vote no...in this park, in this era, 425 HRs is just not that impressive.

Will McGriff get in with his 493?

Bags with 449?

Juan Gone with 434?

Darrell Evans 414?

Giambi/Vlad?

Hell, Andruw Jones has 388. After he hits 50 this year, that will be 438!

You seem to be the one looking at HR as the only stat. :rolleyes:

None of those other players have anywhere close to the same other stats (like OPS) over their whole careers, and two of those you mentioned have been outed as steroid users. Helton has been a doubles machine throughout his career also. His career average is 29 HR, 46 2B. With a .328 average and .994 OPS.

Park or not, he's worthy.

jabrch
03-11-2010, 03:04 PM
You seem to be the one looking at HR as the only stat. :rolleyes:

None of those other players have anywhere close to the same other stats (like OPS) over their whole careers, and two of those you mentioned have been outed as steroid users. Helton has been a doubles machine throughout his career also. His career average is 29 HR, 46 2B. With a .328 average and .994 OPS.

Park or not, he's worthy.

The HOF has its key milestones. 500/3000/300/etc... If you don't make those milestones, you have an uphill climb. What do you do with a guy like Larry Walker? There are lots of guys who are good...but in my eyes not HOFers. Rice is one of them...so is Santo... There are many more. I'm a bit eliteist about the HOF... I'd go smaller than bigger. But this is not black and white in any way - if he makes it, I can live with it. One could make a reasonable arguement either for or against him making it.

MisterB
03-11-2010, 06:33 PM
Helton's career splits (per 162 games):

Home - .361/.458/.642 - 35 HR - 128 RBI - 134 R - 48 2B - 105 BB - 65 SO
Road - .294/.395/.489 - 22 HR - 85 RBI - 83 R - 42 2B - 96 RBI - 92 SO

He's a god at Coors, but just good everywhere else.

Sam Spade
03-11-2010, 07:29 PM
Its hard to say at this point, but he has a legitimate shot, and impressive numbers. I think he should get in if he keeps it up, park or not.

guillen4life13
03-12-2010, 11:22 AM
The HOF has its key milestones. 500/3000/300/etc... If you don't make those milestones, you have an uphill climb. What do you do with a guy like Larry Walker? There are lots of guys who are good...but in my eyes not HOFers. Rice is one of them...so is Santo... There are many more. I'm a bit eliteist about the HOF... I'd go smaller than bigger. But this is not black and white in any way - if he makes it, I can live with it. One could make a reasonable arguement either for or against him making it.

Fair enough. I think that now, with him supposedly having played clean, his power numbers speak more highly, and 400 home runs should again be good enough for people to have a good shot.

TheVulture
03-12-2010, 05:04 PM
His name was linked to PEDs. Cardinals broadcaster Wayne Hagan made a comment about him taking steroids, to which he was publically furious.



I don't think that qualifies as a link.

BTW, I don't think there are too many .328 career hitters on the outside looking in, I don't care how many hits or homeruns they have.

PalehosePlanet
03-12-2010, 11:00 PM
Coors field, pre-94ish, was a better tonic for hitters than any PED's could have ever been. Just ask Vinnie Castilla and Dante Bichette, to name a few.

Overall though, I don't know, it's hard to say. I know a player can't help what his home field plays like, so it might be unfair to hold it against him. But at the same time, not only are his power numbers inflated, but his batting average as well; too much ground to cover in that massive outfield means a lot of pop-up and fly ball hits that would be caught in normal size parks. Outs become hits, singles become doubles, doubles become triples....

Again, the numbers look great, but this will be a very tough call.

DSpivack
03-12-2010, 11:03 PM
Coors field, pre-94ish, was a better tonic for hitters than any PED's could have ever been. Just ask Vinnie Castilla and Dante Bichette, to name a few.

Not to be the picky annoying guy, but Coors Field opened in 1994. :wink:

PalehosePlanet
03-12-2010, 11:13 PM
Not to be the picky annoying guy, but Coors Field opened in 1994. :wink:

Sorry, meant 2004ish.

DSpivack
03-12-2010, 11:15 PM
Sorry, meant 2004ish.

That makes sense, then!

Was the humidor the big difference in the change there?

PalehosePlanet
03-12-2010, 11:55 PM
That makes sense, then!

Was the humidor the big difference in the change there?

Yes, although there has been plenty of debate as to how the humidor changed the game at Coors. Scientists say that a humidified ball travels farther. Many of the Rockies' pitchers said at the time that the difference was that the balls no longer dried out, shrank and became slick, Thus due to the difference of the ball retaining it's normal size and the pitchers having a better grip on the ball they were able to pitch more effectively.

Here is a couple of interesting articles on the subject (on USA Today of all places.)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/rockies/2007-10-09-humidor2-coors_N.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-10-26-3457255919_x.htm

DSpivack
03-13-2010, 12:50 AM
Yes, although there has been plenty of debate as to how the humidor changed the game at Coors. Scientists say that a humidified ball travels farther. Many of the Rockies' pitchers said at the time that the difference was that the balls no longer dried out, shrank and became slick, Thus due to the difference of the ball retaining it's normal size and the pitchers having a better grip on the ball they were able to pitch more effectively.

Here is a couple of interesting articles on the subject (on USA Today of all places.)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/rockies/2007-10-09-humidor2-coors_N.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-10-26-3457255919_x.htm

Cool, thanks for the links! Pretty interesting stuff, especially since my sister lives about a mile away from Coors Field. :cool: