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mzh
03-08-2010, 09:24 PM
Mat Gamel (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=gamel-001mat), in the Brewers system. IIRC he was their top prospect until Alcides Escobar showed up, and they've been shopping him around for a while now. From what I've read, he's much better suited for the AL with a 1B/DH role, and with Prince there he won't be getting to many at bats that soon. If it wouldn't take too much to get him I would not mind seeing him as a successor to PK at 1st.

Chrisaway
03-08-2010, 09:26 PM
Agreed, if we can get him cheap.

jamokes
03-08-2010, 09:32 PM
You're not going to get any teams' top prospect cheap. They need pitching.

DirtySox
03-08-2010, 09:34 PM
I don't see his bat being all that valuable at 1B or DH. Most of his value came from him being at 3rd, but he's a butcher over there. I'd rather not acquire him for anything significant.

mzh
03-08-2010, 09:36 PM
I don't see his bat being all that valuable at 1B or DH. Most of his value came from him being at 3rd, but he's a butcher over there. I'd rather not acquire him for anything significant.
.325/20/99 (what he posted at AA/AAA a couple years ago) is pretty darn valuable anywhere you go. He can swipe a few bags too.

DirtySox
03-08-2010, 09:40 PM
.325/20/99 (what he posted at AA/AAA a couple years ago) is pretty darn valuable anywhere you go. He can swipe a few bags too.

That's not his professional line. There's no chance he puts up those kind of numbers in the Bigs. He will very likely end up being a very average 1B.

doublem23
03-08-2010, 09:46 PM
He'd be an interesting pick-up if we just wanted to collect a bunch of young 1B/DH types for next year to just throw them against the wall and see what sticks, but counting on him is not a great idea.

jabrch
03-08-2010, 09:53 PM
Depends on the price I guess. No reason not to take a shot at him if we can give up a piece that we are not counting on...but I can't see that being the Brewers plan for him.

DirtySox
03-08-2010, 09:59 PM
Depends on the price I guess. No reason not to take a shot at him if we can give up a piece that we are not counting on...but I can't see that being the Brewers plan for him.

I agree. I might be more down on Gamel than others, but would have no qualms in giving up a Danks/Morel/Retherford in some combination for him. I by no means think he's worth a Hudson/Flowers/Mitchell though.

jabrch
03-08-2010, 10:27 PM
I agree. I might be more down on Gamel than others, but would have no qualms in giving up a Danks/Morel/Retherford in some combination for him. I by no means think he's worth a Hudson/Flowers/Mitchell though.

I wouldn't give up Danks. I partially believe having him will help us to extend John Danks in the next few years.

BringHomeDaBacon
03-08-2010, 10:43 PM
Maybe we can trade Tony Pena for him.

tm1119
03-08-2010, 11:05 PM
Hes more than likely going to be traded for another teams top prospect that isnt working for out for them or is expendable because of depth at that position. Maybe a Hochevar, Morrow, or Lincoln type. Either way I dont see us going after him. Hes too unproven as a MLB hitter to risk giving up the few prospects we have. If we're going to trade for anybody its going to be a proven guy who can carry us deep into the playoffs(Gonzalez, Dunn, etc.)

Tragg
03-08-2010, 11:11 PM
20 homers from a 1B is nothing special and not worth paying top dollar for. You have to make the power up somewhere else, and most other positions homers are a lot more expensive to obtain than 1B

munchman33
03-08-2010, 11:55 PM
Gamel would be our everyday DH this year if he was here.

Boondock Saint
03-09-2010, 12:34 AM
Maybe we can trade Tony Pena for him.

Billy Beane called. He wants his strategy back.

cws05champ
03-09-2010, 08:34 AM
Gamel would be our everyday DH this year if he was here.

For once I agree with Munch...I'm not sure what his power ceiling will be but he can hit for a good average. But we are not getting him "cheap" as some have suggested. As long as they don't feel comfortable that they can sign Prince long term, Gamel will stay. If we were to give up Hudson they may bite on that....but I wouldn't make that trade personally.

BringHomeDaBacon
03-09-2010, 09:10 AM
Billy Beane called. He wants his strategy back.

Tell him Ozzieball is the new inefficiency.

TheOldRoman
03-09-2010, 10:05 AM
If the Brewers are looking to trade him, they know something we don't. Fielder is going to be gone after 2011 at the latest, and they will likely trade him next offseason. They will need a 1B. Do the Brewers have another minor league stud at 1B?

russ99
03-09-2010, 10:24 AM
I don't know if I'd trade a mid-high prospect for him now. Besides, between Flowers, Viciedo and Morel, 1B will be fine. 1B is also one of the easiest positions to fill in free agency, if we decide to let Paulie loose.

Besides, considering the organizational lack of power hitters, we might take one in the first round this year. But it's more likely we'll take a pitcher.

Craig Grebeck
03-09-2010, 10:27 AM
I don't know if I'd trade a mid-high prospect for him now. Besides, between Flowers, Viciedo and Morel, 1B will be fine. 1B is also one of the easiest positions to fill in free agency, if we decide to let Paulie loose.

Besides, considering the organizational lack of power hitters, we might take one in the first round this year. But it's more likely we'll take a pitcher.
Whiff.

1. Flowers, by most accounts these days, can stick at catcher.
2. Viciedo has shown nothing.
3. Morel's biggest asset is his glove.

CPditka
03-09-2010, 03:10 PM
Morel + pitching prospect (not hudson) = Gamel?

This would be a killer deal. It leaves us a bit thin at 3B, but thats what the draft & FA is for.

mzh
03-09-2010, 06:45 PM
Whiff.

1. Flowers, by most accounts these days, can stick at catcher.
2. Viciedo has shown nothing.
3. Morel's biggest asset is his glove.
So that means he isn't a valuable prospect and will not perform at the ML level :scratch:

russ99
03-09-2010, 07:01 PM
Whiff.

1. Flowers, by most accounts these days, can stick at catcher.
2. Viciedo has shown nothing.
3. Morel's biggest asset is his glove.

1. Why push A.J out this year when he can still perform at a high level and will handle pitchers vastly better than a rookie. Also, if Flowers ends up the hitter everyone assumes, he can put up average to above average numbers at C, 1B or DH.

2. Viciedo has show something the second half of last year otherwise the Sox wouldn't be having him start at 1B in AAA. (pending his iffy spring so far)

3. Morel's got a good bat to go with that glove.

Agreed, I'm not averse to seeing any of these guys traded, but for an experienced major leaguer.

I have zero interest in seeing Kenny trade our top prospects for someone else's prospect who have their own question marks. Rarely does that work out (Matt Thornton) - much more often it does not.

PalehosePlanet
03-09-2010, 09:14 PM
I still think Viciedo has plenty of potential for improvement, he's still a baby and should have been in A ball last year. I do not, however, want him at 1B, because I feel that at 5'11" he is too short for the position. I would put him in a corner OF position, if I had my choice.

As far as Gamel goes, I'd be all for acquiring him. The more hitting prospects the merrier.

Craig Grebeck
03-09-2010, 10:22 PM
1. Why push A.J out this year when he can still perform at a high level and will handle pitchers vastly better than a rookie. Also, if Flowers ends up the hitter everyone assumes, he can put up average to above average numbers at C, 1B or DH.

2. Viciedo has show something the second half of last year otherwise the Sox wouldn't be having him start at 1B in AAA. (pending his iffy spring so far)

3. Morel's got a good bat to go with that glove.

Agreed, I'm not averse to seeing any of these guys traded, but for an experienced major leaguer.

I have zero interest in seeing Kenny trade our top prospects for someone else's prospect who have their own question marks. Rarely does that work out (Matt Thornton) - much more often it does not.
1. You are assuming that AJP will still perform in 2011. Not really certain. I'd say unlikely.
2. We're talking about the White Sox here, right? Two good months earned Viciedo a trip to AAA. Whoopty-****ing-doo. He was atrocious the rest of the time.
3. Do you realize how idiotic moving a good-fielding third baseman to first base would be?

mzh
03-10-2010, 07:51 PM
1. You are assuming that AJP will still perform in 2011. Not really certain. I'd say unlikely.
2. We're talking about the White Sox here, right? Two good months earned Viciedo a trip to AAA. Whoopty-****ing-doo. He was atrocious the rest of the time.
3. Do you realize how idiotic moving a good-fielding third baseman to first base would be?
You talk about AJ in 2011 like he'll be 40. He'll only be 33, there is absolutely no reason barring injury why he shouldn't remain as consistent as he's been for the last 8 years.

Atrocious? .263 with 7 homers is atrocious for a 19-year old in his first 3 months of professional ball? Those two good months mean that he was able to adjust and improve, and there's no reason why that shouldn't continue to AAA and MLB.

munchman33
03-10-2010, 08:08 PM
You talk about AJ in 2011 like he'll be 40. He'll only be 33, there is absolutely no reason barring injury why he shouldn't remain as consistent as he's been for the last 8 years.

Atrocious? .263 with 7 homers is atrocious for a 19-year old in his first 3 months of professional ball? Those two good months mean that he was able to adjust and improve, and there's no reason why that shouldn't continue to AAA and MLB.

Anytime a supposed slugger goes .263 with 7 homers and poor plate discipline over the bulk of the year in AA, it is cause for serious pause. The last two months were okay, but they were only two months, and they weren't good enough either. Viciedo needs to make some serious strides. His age is irrelevant when you consider the kind of prospect he was supposed to be to the kind of prospect he is. He's marginal at best.

russ99
03-10-2010, 10:03 PM
Anytime a supposed slugger goes .263 with 7 homers and poor plate discipline over the bulk of the year in AA, it is cause for serious pause. The last two months were okay, but they were only two months, and they weren't good enough either. Viciedo needs to make some serious strides. His age is irrelevant when you consider the kind of prospect he was supposed to be to the kind of prospect he is. He's marginal at best.

The kid was 20 years old and he needed to get use to life in the US, which is a huge adjustment for any Latin American ballplayer.

Take most American kids a year or two out of high school and put them in AA, and they'd have just a difficult time as Dayan did, without the culture shock and language barrier. And despite this, Dayan did improve in the second half.

Fact is, he's got talent, but it's understandably raw. Still way too early to assume he won't make an impact on the South Side.

munchman33
03-13-2010, 03:11 PM
The kid was 20 years old and he needed to get use to life in the US, which is a huge adjustment for any Latin American ballplayer.

Take most American kids a year or two out of high school and put them in AA, and they'd have just a difficult time as Dayan did, without the culture shock and language barrier. And despite this, Dayan did improve in the second half.

Fact is, he's got talent, but it's understandably raw. Still way too early to assume he won't make an impact on the South Side.

If Dayan did what he did the last two months for the entire year, I'd be more apt to accept the adjustment excuse. But his "raw talent" wasn't on display even in those two months, when he obviously adjusted. Those two months were pretty average for a fringe 1B/LF/DH prospect, which he looks to be.

mzh
03-13-2010, 03:26 PM
If Dayan did what he did the last two months for the entire year, I'd be more apt to accept the adjustment excuse. But his "raw talent" wasn't on display even in those two months, when he obviously adjusted. Those two months were pretty average for a fringe 1B/LF/DH prospect, which he looks to be.
I still don't get how you can judge that he is all of a sudden a "fringe" prospect after one decent year, especially given the circumstances of the year.

munchman33
03-13-2010, 04:06 PM
I still don't get how you can judge that he is all of a sudden a "fringe" prospect after one decent year, especially given the circumstances of the year.

Because the types of prospects that pan out have better years than his two months in their worst years. 1B/DH/LF types that pan out as regulars throw up absolutely sick numbers in the minors. We're not talking about a shortstop here. Dayan needs to be a 30+ homer guy in the majors with a decent BA or batting eye, which means he should have put up better numbers than his "breakout" at the end of the year. Significantly better numbers. It's really difficult after seeing him play to think he's going to improve that much. His problems the last two months were not mental. They were inadequate bat speed and a poor batting eye. Power isn't everything in a prospect. You need both bat speed and judgment to actually hit those homers at the next level with any sort of consistency. It just doesn't seem likely that he's magically going to start doing those things at the level he needs to.

mzh
03-13-2010, 04:16 PM
Because the types of prospects that pan out have better years than his two months in their worst years. 1B/DH/LF types that pan out as regulars throw up absolutely sick numbers in the minors. We're not talking about a shortstop here. Dayan needs to be a 30+ homer guy in the majors with a decent BA or batting eye, which means he should have put up better numbers than his "breakout" at the end of the year. Significantly better numbers. It's really difficult after seeing him play to think he's going to improve that much. His problems the last two months were not mental. They were inadequate bat speed and a poor batting eye. Power isn't everything in a prospect. You need both bat speed and judgment to actually hit those homers at the next level with any sort of consistency. It just doesn't seem likely that he's magically going to start doing those things at the level he needs to.
I think you are underestimating the impact of the switch from Cuban ball to American baseball and lifestyle. It's the same game but it's also incredibly different. Also, I don't see how it's fair to evaluate a kid for the rest of his career based on his first year as a 19 year old. It's not like he's 23 and had 4 years of college ball to develop his skills.

jabrch
03-13-2010, 04:19 PM
I think you are underestimating the impact of the switch from Cuban ball to American baseball and lifestyle. It's the same game but it's also incredibly different. Also, I don't see how it's fair to evaluate a kid for the rest of his career based on his first year as a 19 year old. It's not like he's 23 and had 4 years of college ball to develop his skills.

a 19 yo who didn't have a great year? He's toast...

Sillyness - pure sillyness.

Jim Shorts
03-13-2010, 04:38 PM
Is Buddy Bell down on the kid?

Because that's where I'll lean...

Jim Shorts
03-13-2010, 04:43 PM
I think you are underestimating the impact of the switch from Cuban ball to American baseball and lifestyle. It's the same game but it's also incredibly different. Also, I don't see how it's fair to evaluate a kid for the rest of his career based on his first year as a 19 year old. It's not like he's 23 and had 4 years of college ball to develop his skills.

I do think this is a bit lost. He was 19, given a bunch of money and his life completely changed with his country.

You still even see a little bit of this in Alexei. There's very few Cuban's in the game.

munchman33
03-13-2010, 04:52 PM
I think you are underestimating the impact of the switch from Cuban ball to American baseball and lifestyle. It's the same game but it's also incredibly different. Also, I don't see how it's fair to evaluate a kid for the rest of his career based on his first year as a 19 year old. It's not like he's 23 and had 4 years of college ball to develop his skills.

How does that affect bat speed?

On the other side of this, he's got six years of what most scouts believe to be the equivalent of AA. Food for thought.

mzh
03-13-2010, 05:12 PM
How does that affect bat speed?

On the other side of this, he's got six years of what most scouts believe to be the equivalent of AA. Food for thought.
And the fact that he was excellent for a few of those years says that what he did this year is by no means all he'll ever do.

munchman33
03-13-2010, 06:03 PM
And the fact that he was excellent for a few of those years says that what he did this year is by no means all he'll ever do.

Actually, he was not. You're believing the hype Torres sold Kenny on. If you ask the Cuban players who have been coming over lately, Dayan is the reason they believe they can get paid here. He was pretty average, and it was a surprise he got so much money.

mzh
03-13-2010, 07:55 PM
Actually, he was not. You're believing the hype Torres sold Kenny on. If you ask the Cuban players who have been coming over lately, Dayan is the reason they believe they can get paid here. He was pretty average, and it was a surprise he got so much money.
So have you been watching him play in Cuba for the last 6 years, or are you just constantly in touch with major league scouts that were in on Viciedo?

munchman33
03-13-2010, 11:01 PM
So have you been watching him play in Cuba for the last 6 years, or are you just constantly in touch with major league scouts that were in on Viciedo?

This is from the mouths of Cuban players in the U.S., most recently said by Ardolis Chapman, who also said it was the consensus that Viciedo was pretty average, and we should expect a large influx if someone like Viciedo can get $10 million just for coming over.

Does no one else read things written about Sox players? Jeez.

sullythered
03-14-2010, 01:13 AM
This is from the mouths of Cuban players in the U.S., most recently said by Ardolis Chapman, who also said it was the consensus that Viciedo was pretty average, and we should expect a large influx if someone like Viciedo can get $10 million just for coming over.

Does no one else read things written about Sox players? Jeez.

Well if the average cuban can hit .280 with 78 rbi at the age of 20 in double A, then the "above average" guys must all be Albert Pujols types.

ComiskeyBrewer
03-14-2010, 06:04 AM
That's not his professional line. There's no chance he puts up those kind of numbers in the Bigs. He will very likely end up being a very average 1B.

.280/20/80 isn't out of the question for him, with the RBIs depending on where he is hitting in the lineup. He is more expendable now, with Mcgehee manning 3rd, and Adam Heether will make a suitable backup for now, so the brewers are pretty deep at 3rd. That being said, i don't expect the brewers to trade him anytime soon, unless Melvin has his socks knocked off. The most likely thing to happen is Either Angel Salome or Jon Lucroy is traded, as the brewers have a choice to make at the Catcher position at AAA.

soxinem1
03-16-2010, 08:35 PM
I wouldn't give up Danks. I partially believe having him will help us to extend John Danks in the next few years.

IDK, sibling teammates and father/son manager-player relationships never stopped a FA from leaving for $$$$, ala Moises Alou/Felipe Alou in MTL.

jabrch
03-16-2010, 11:58 PM
IDK, sibling teammates and father/son manager-player relationships never stopped a FA from leaving for $$$$, ala Moises Alou/Felipe Alou in MTL.

That's one example - but you can also say that had MTL had the type of money that it took to sign him, he'd have stayed for some amount less - but not Expo-Less. Look at Cal Ripken. Look at Griffey wanting to be a Red around his Dad. There are examples that go both ways.

In the case of Danks, John and Jordan both dropped Boras after the Sox signed Jordan. Who knows - may have nothing to do with him. If someone made us a great offer for (either) Danks, I'd move them. But I'd surely ask the right questions of both of them to see before making a move.

sullythered
03-17-2010, 12:38 AM
That's one example - but you can also say that had MTL had the type of money that it took to sign him, he'd have stayed for some amount less - but not Expo-Less. Look at Cal Ripken. Look at Griffey wanting to be a Red around his Dad. There are examples that go both ways.

In the case of Danks, John and Jordan both dropped Boras after the Sox signed Jordan. Who knows - may have nothing to do with him. If someone made us a great offer for (either) Danks, I'd move them. But I'd surely ask the right questions of both of them to see before making a move.

Though I agree, I would probably want more back for John Danks than anyone else on our roster.

UofCSoxFan
03-17-2010, 01:28 PM
who also said it was the consensus that Viciedo was pretty average, and we should expect a large influx if someone like Viciedo can get $10 million just for coming over.


I don't think money is what is holding back a huge influx of players from Cuba. Most would probably come here and play for free if it meant leaving Cuba...if you know they were actually allowed to leave in the first place.