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View Full Version : Joe Nathan leaves with tightness in his elbow


JermaineDye05
03-06-2010, 04:10 PM
Link (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100306&content_id=8698656&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

I can honestly say I'm not complaining about this one.

Since I don't like to wish injuries on players. I'd like to say I hope he's fine, but that he be ridiculously horrible against the Sox this year.

Lip Man 1
03-06-2010, 05:14 PM
According to ESPN.com, he says he's OK.

Lip

JermaineDye05
03-06-2010, 05:33 PM
According to ESPN.com, he says he's OK.

Lip

Good.

I'd rather that if we win the division that we do it with the Twins and Tigers at 100% so there are less excuses.

SephClone89
03-06-2010, 05:49 PM
Good.

I'd rather that if we win the division that we do it with the Twins and Tigers at 100% so there are less excuses.

Fewer excuses.

kittle42
03-06-2010, 06:15 PM
Fewer excuses.

:bandance:

thomas35forever
03-06-2010, 06:37 PM
Nathan will be as lights out this year as he's ever been. You can bet on it.

getonbckthr
03-06-2010, 06:44 PM
Good.

I'd rather that if we win the division that we do it with the Twins and Tigers at 100% so there are less excuses.
I don't care how we win as long as we win.

WhiteSox5187
03-06-2010, 07:03 PM
I don't care how we win as long as we win.

Agreed.

I was wondering about Nathan's health earlier this off season as it seemed like the Twins kept trotting him out there damn near every game in September and towards the end he was getting hit a bit.

JermaineDye05
03-06-2010, 07:17 PM
Fewer excuses.

In the words of Trent Reznor "Now [I] know this is what it feels like."

As an English major who is always correcting people's grammar, I can't believe I did that.

doublem23
03-06-2010, 08:32 PM
There is a difference between wishing injury on a player and realizing that injuries are a part of the game and teams just have to deal with them.

Of course, I'm not praying Nathan is significantly hurt... But I'm not going to have any trouble sleeping at night knowing his elbow hurts.

GoGoCrede
03-06-2010, 09:52 PM
In the words of Trent Reznor "Now [I] know this is what it feels like."

As an English major who is always correcting people's grammar, I can't believe I did that.

English majors unite! :bandance:

Glad Nathan's okay, and I wish him all the best, except against us.

jabrch
03-07-2010, 12:01 AM
I hope Joe Nathan is fine and is able to live a long and fruitful life.

I hope he never throws another pitch again.

I don't root for injuries, nor celebrate them. But if the opposition gets weaker, it's good for the Sox.

Nellie_Fox
03-07-2010, 12:09 AM
Fewer excuses.Yes!

DumpJerry
03-07-2010, 01:09 AM
Nathan will be as lights out this year as he's ever been. You can bet on it.
.....and you know this how? Closers (with the exception of Mariano) are very finicky year to year.

Irishsox1
03-07-2010, 01:43 AM
I hope his elbow is fine pitching in 38 degree April's! Something tells me the Twinkies are gonna miss that dome.

Nellie_Fox
03-07-2010, 01:51 AM
I hope his elbow is fine pitching in 38 degree April's! Something tells me the Twinkies are gonna miss that dome.April's what?

I'm so tired of this. There is very little difference between Chicago and Minneapolis weather in April. Last year, when the Twins were playing in Chicago in 40 weather, it was in the 60s in Minneapolis. The Twins played outdoors for years at Metropolitan Stadium.

Not having the dome will be far more of an issue in late fall, if the Twins make the playoffs, than it will be in the spring. There are lots of cities that have problems with weather for spring baseball.

Rdy2PlayBall
03-07-2010, 01:59 AM
April's what?

I'm so tired of this. There is very little difference between Chicago and Minneapolis weather in April. Last year, when the Twins were playing in Chicago in 40 weather, it was in the 60s in Minneapolis. The Twins played outdoors for years at Metropolitan Stadium.

Not having the dome will be far more of an issue in late fall, if the Twins make the playoffs, than it will be in the spring. There are lots of cities that have problems with weather for spring baseball.Not related to weather... is the turf going to be a lot different than in the Dome?

Nellie_Fox
03-07-2010, 02:10 AM
Not related to weather... is the turf going to be a lot different than in the Dome?Yes, natural grass. Specifically grown on a sand/peat base to replicate the field being installed, and to be compatible with Minnesota weather.

Rdy2PlayBall
03-07-2010, 02:31 AM
Yes, natural grass. Specifically grown on a sand/peat base to replicate the field being installed, and to be compatible with Minnesota weather.Thanks, is there a place to see how their defense is on this type of field? I wouldn't know where to look.

Twins_Morneau
03-07-2010, 02:48 AM
April's what?

I'm so tired of this. There is very little difference between Chicago and Minneapolis weather in April. Last year, when the Twins were playing in Chicago in 40 weather, it was in the 60s in Minneapolis. The Twins played outdoors for years at Metropolitan Stadium.

Not having the dome will be far more of an issue in late fall, if the Twins make the playoffs, than it will be in the spring. There are lots of cities that have problems with weather for spring baseball.

Thank You, I hate explaining how we don't live in a dang igloo.:tongue:

DumpJerry
03-07-2010, 08:56 AM
April's what?

I'm so tired of this. There is very little difference between Chicago and Minneapolis weather in April. Last year, when the Twins were playing in Chicago in 40 weather, it was in the 60s in Minneapolis. The Twins played outdoors for years at Metropolitan Stadium.

Not having the dome will be far more of an issue in late fall, if the Twins make the playoffs, than it will be in the spring. There are lots of cities that have problems with weather for spring baseball.
Actually, when the Twins were here last year on Good Friday (the first weekend of the season), it was 33 degrees at Comiskey per the scoreboard.

SOXSINCE'70
03-07-2010, 11:30 AM
:wanne

"He's got an elbow, he'll be fine."

raul12
03-07-2010, 09:58 PM
April's what?

I'm so tired of this. There is very little difference between Chicago and Minneapolis weather in April. Last year, when the Twins were playing in Chicago in 40 weather, it was in the 60s in Minneapolis. The Twins played outdoors for years at Metropolitan Stadium.

Not having the dome will be far more of an issue in late fall, if the Twins make the playoffs, than it will be in the spring. There are lots of cities that have problems with weather for spring baseball.

So are the Twin Cities in the valley to keep it warmer? Madison, WI is most definitely colder than Chicago on average in April, so you're essentially saying that the Twin Cities are warmer than Madison in April, which I'm not so sure I buy unless they are in the valley. I'll plead ignorance on my geology and geography knowledge of the St. Croix and Mississippi River valleys.

Nellie_Fox
03-08-2010, 12:48 AM
So are the Twin Cities in the valley to keep it warmer? Madison, WI is most definitely colder than Chicago on average in April, so you're essentially saying that the Twin Cities are warmer than Madison in April, which I'm not so sure I buy unless they are in the valley. I'll plead ignorance on my geology and geography knowledge of the St. Croix and Mississippi River valleys.I don't know if it's the valley or what, I just know that's so.

Here is a chart (http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/vacationplanner/wxclimatology/compare/USIL0225?sfld1=Chicago,%20IL&sfld2=Minneapolis,%20MN&clocid1=USIL0225&clocid2=) comparing Chicago and Minneapolis for average high temps. You'll see that April and May have very little difference, but September and October do. Average lows (http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/vacationplanner/wxclimatology/compare/USIL0225?sfld1=Chicago,%20IL&sfld2=Minneapolis,%20MN&clocid1=USIL0225&clocid2=) are a little more significant. Anyway, it's not going to be that big of a deal. I've been plenty miserable in Comiskey in early April.

DeadMoney
03-08-2010, 01:52 AM
I've been plenty miserable in Comiskey in early April.

I think that's the point people should be making. It's ridiculous to compare the two cities average temperatures. Because quite frankly, sitting at baseball games in April - in Chicago or Minneapolis - can (and will) be miserable from time to time.

HomeFish
03-08-2010, 02:17 AM
I can't believe Sox fans are complaining about the end of the Metrodome.

Hitmen77
03-08-2010, 09:43 AM
April's what?

I'm so tired of this. There is very little difference between Chicago and Minneapolis weather in April. Last year, when the Twins were playing in Chicago in 40 weather, it was in the 60s in Minneapolis. The Twins played outdoors for years at Metropolitan Stadium.

Not having the dome will be far more of an issue in late fall, if the Twins make the playoffs, than it will be in the spring. There are lots of cities that have problems with weather for spring baseball.

To avoid this problem, the White Sox should make sure that the Twins season ends on Oct 3 this year.:cool:

I can't believe Sox fans are complaining about the end of the Metrodome.

No kidding. Since the Sox have to play only 2 games (and only 1 night game) in Minnesota before July 15 this year. I don't give a **** how cold and miserable the Twins and their fans are in the early spring.

Oblong
03-08-2010, 10:26 AM
re: the weather. Let's remember that the franchise started playing in the Metrodome in 1982. Before that they were outside so it's not like outdoor baseball in Minneapolis/St. Paul is a foreign concept.

TheOldRoman
03-08-2010, 10:52 AM
Yes, natural grass. Specifically grown on a sand/peat base to replicate the field being installed, and to be compatible with Minnesota weather.Nel, I am confused. Are you saying the type of grass they chose is supposed to play like turf?

cws05champ
03-08-2010, 11:07 AM
Back to your regularly scheduled thread:

Reports on XM radio this morning that Nathan flew back to Min to have an MRI. Not saying that it is bad news, but that's never a good sign.

DirtySox
03-08-2010, 11:23 AM
Nel, I am confused. Are you saying the type of grass they chose is supposed to play like turf?

I imagine that is what he's implying. I've read that in a few other places as well.

DumpJerry
03-08-2010, 11:50 AM
Back to your regularly scheduled thread:

Reports on XM radio this morning that Nathan flew back to Min to have an MRI. Not saying that it is bad news, but that's never a good sign.
He has had that elbow cleaned up in the past from chips and spurs.


You know, the usual stuff.......

illinibk
03-08-2010, 12:31 PM
re: the weather. Let's remember that the franchise started playing in the Metrodome in 1982. Before that they were outside so it's not like outdoor baseball in Minneapolis/St. Paul is a foreign concept.
Yes, the fans could/should be used to it. But no current MLB players have ever played a MLB game outdoors in Minnesota. So who knows what kidn of effect it will have. But, as Dump said, it was 33 degrees at the Cell for a game last year, so players certainly have played in frigid temps.

Nellie_Fox
03-09-2010, 12:28 AM
Nel, I am confused. Are you saying the type of grass they chose is supposed to play like turf?No, it was grown on a sand/peat base because that's the base that's being put in at Target Field. So, the grass was grown especially for the base.

There was somewhat of a squawk because they bought the grass from someplace in Colorado, instead of a Minnesota sod farm. The Minnesota sod farmers said they grow on black dirt, and that grass wouldn't have taken well to the base they're installing at Target. I hope all this made sense.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread:

Reports on XM radio this morning that Nathan flew back to Min to have an MRI. Not saying that it is bad news, but that's never a good sign.Sorry.

fram40
03-09-2010, 08:04 AM
Rumors on WSCR this morning that Nathan is pondering TommyJohn surgery.

SaltyPretzel
03-09-2010, 08:16 AM
Rumors on WSCR this morning that Nathan is pondering TommyJohn surgery.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/03/twins-closer-nathan-could-miss-2010-season.html

JermaineDye05
03-09-2010, 08:21 AM
Buster Olney reports it's a torn elbow ligament.

DumpJerry
03-09-2010, 08:21 AM
Rumors on WSCR this morning that Nathan is pondering TommyJohn surgery.
If this happens, all over Minnesota:
http://www.auroraoh.com/depts/svc/cemetery/Picture%20Library/Flag_at_Half-Staff.jpg

DumpJerry
03-09-2010, 08:28 AM
If Nathan is out for the 2010 season, their marketing slogan can be "House of cards, meet Hurricane Katrina."

I know, I know, they have Joe Mauer. If Mauer cannot take The Bump in the 9th to shut down the other side, they will have serious problems.

fram40
03-09-2010, 08:40 AM
If Nathan is out for the 2010 season, their marketing slogan can be "House of cards, meet Hurricane Katrina."

I know, I know, they have Joe Mauer. If Mauer cannot take The Bump in the 9th to shut down the other side, they will have serious problems.

It would be ironic for Sox fans if Jon Rauch became the Twins closer

SoxGirl4Life
03-09-2010, 08:40 AM
Torn elbow ligament. Wow...

Huisj
03-09-2010, 08:56 AM
That's a big loss. But seeing how it's the Twins, and knowing how they can seemingly put anyone in any spot and have it work out ok, they'll just slide Rauch or Guerrier into the closer spot and they'll rack up 35 saves with a 3.00 ERA, and people like Crain and Mijares will step into that vacated spot with a random career year to save the middle relief.

havelj
03-09-2010, 09:02 AM
They need to get someone to make hitters swing and miss in that new hitters ballpark. Not sure they have that.

thedudeabides
03-09-2010, 09:03 AM
That's a big loss. But seeing how it's the Twins, and knowing how they can seemingly put anyone in any spot and have it work out ok, they'll just slide Rauch or Guerrier into the closer spot and they'll rack up 35 saves with a 3.00 ERA, and people like Crain and Mijares will step into that vacated spot with a random career year to save the middle relief.

I don't think so. This one hurts. Their bullpen was having trouble getting the ball to him last year.

Chez
03-09-2010, 09:05 AM
That's a big loss. But seeing how it's the Twins, and knowing how they can seemingly put anyone in any spot and have it work out ok, they'll just slide Rauch or Guerrier into the closer spot and they'll rack up 35 saves with a 3.00 ERA, and people like Crain and Mijares will step into that vacated spot with a random career year to save the middle relief.

Agree. Rauch will probably save 40 games -- how much would that hurt?! Plus, they've got Neshek coming back. Haven't we learned to never count the Twins out?

cws05champ
03-09-2010, 09:05 AM
That's a big loss. But seeing how it's the Twins, and knowing how they can seemingly put anyone in any spot and have it work out ok, they'll just slide Rauch or Guerrier into the closer spot and they'll rack up 35 saves with a 3.00 ERA, and people like Crain and Mijares will step into that vacated spot with a random career year to save the middle relief.

I was thinking the same thing....dam Twins!!:angry::angry:

Shoeless_Jeff
03-09-2010, 09:07 AM
This sucks. I want the Sox to beat the best, not get lucky by having the best get hurt.

JermaineDye05
03-09-2010, 09:08 AM
Never count out the Twins.

I wouldn't be surprised if they wound up trading for Heath Bell now.

TheOldRoman
03-09-2010, 09:15 AM
No, it was grown on a sand/peat base because that's the base that's being put in at Target Field. So, the grass was grown especially for the base.

There was somewhat of a squawk because they bought the grass from someplace in Colorado, instead of a Minnesota sod farm. The Minnesota sod farmers said they grow on black dirt, and that grass wouldn't have taken well to the base they're installing at Target. I hope all this made sense.

Sorry.Thanks, I was just a little confused by your description. I had heard before about the base which was installed for the drainage/recycling system. Knowing the Twins, I wouldn't have been surpised if they threw rubber pellets into the soil mix to make the ball bounce more.:D:

If Nathan is out for the season, it will be a huge blow to the Twins. Over the last couple of years they have moved away from the flukey crap teams (where any mediocre call-up could hit .400 for two months) and moved towards having really talented teams. I don't think they will have another crappy prospect or journeyman step in and go for 40 for 40 with an ERA under 2 this time. Getting Neshek back helps, but they BP is likely going to make their 2008 pen look good.

thedudeabides
03-09-2010, 09:16 AM
Never count out the Twins.

I wouldn't be surprised if they wound up trading for Heath Bell now.

That wouldn't surprise me, at all. They know how valuable he has been. He can't be replaced by just anyone. I don't know if it'll be Bell, but I think they'll do something.

raven1
03-09-2010, 09:31 AM
Unless the White Sox get off to a slow start this year, this might actually lead the Twins to make some mid-season trades to offload some of their higher value players to build for the future and free up money for a Joe Mauer extension. The key will be to build up a good 8-10 game lead by July so they don't try to hang on to try to take a weak division by default.

g0g0
03-09-2010, 09:50 AM
Bad news for Joe, but great news for us! So close to opening day without a proven closer? Hope we see a lot of :twinslose this year!

VenturaFan23
03-09-2010, 09:57 AM
It's the ****ing Twins. They still concern me no matter what.

soxinem1
03-09-2010, 10:08 AM
Bad news for Joe, but great news for us! So close to opening day without a proven closer? Hope we see a lot of :twinslose this year!


This is really not as bad as many may believe. A closer is the easiest piece of a successful team to replace.

Any position or starting pitching spot is more difficult to fill, so I think Gardenhire will be giving more effort to who the fifth starter is than finding a replacement closer.

Between Guerrier, Rausch, or even Liriano someone will emerge.... and finish with 35+ saves for the season and an ERA of under 0.00 against the White Sox (or it would seem).

tstrike2000
03-09-2010, 10:17 AM
Yikes on Nathan's torn elbow ligament. If it hurts the Twins, then good, but as for Nathan, you never like to hear about this kind of injury. Hope for him personally he's able to recover from it and pitch again...just not against us.

UofCSoxFan
03-09-2010, 10:20 AM
This is really not as bad as many may believe. A closer is the easiest piece of a successful team to replace.

Any position or starting pitching spot is more difficult to fill, so I think Gardenhire will be giving more effort to who the fifth starter is than finding a replacement closer.

Between Guerrier, Rausch, or even Liriano someone will emerge.... and finish with 35+ saves for the season and an ERA of under 0.00 against the White Sox (or it would seem).

While agree that this blow isn't as bad as losing a starter, in a division that will be as tight as the Central this year (I think PECOTA has the winner winning only 86 games before this injury) even a coulple blown saves can matter. Let's keep in mind that Nathan is one of the best in the game and whoever replaces him will be a downgrade. What's even more important though, IMO, is not the difficulty in replacing a closer, but the difficulty in replacing the set-up guy that replaces the closer. When Jenks went down and Thornton went into his role, Thornton did fine, but it meant everyone else in the pen had to step up in roll, which usually doesn't bode well. This doesn't kill the Twins but it certainly is another chink in their armor.

UofCSoxFan
03-09-2010, 10:22 AM
Did anyone else not realize that Nathan is 35 (36 in November)? I thought he was in his late 20s/early 30s. Honestly a torn UCL can be career threatening for someone at his age, especially a power pitcher.

Rocky Soprano
03-09-2010, 10:27 AM
Wow, really bad news for the Twins. I've never been one to cheer someone else's misfortunes, this is not how I want the Sox to beat the Twins. Add me to the group of those that are not counting them out just yet. They always find a way to be there at the end.

spawn
03-09-2010, 10:30 AM
Wow, really bad news for the Twins. I've never been one to cheer someone else's misfortunes, this is not how I want the Sox to beat the Twins. Add me to the group of those that are not counting them out just yet. They always find a way to be there at the end.
Yep. I wouldn't count them out yet either. They survied missing Mauer the first part of last season, and they survived Morneau going down. They always seem to have someone step up when they need them.

Dibbs
03-09-2010, 10:35 AM
Injuries are a part of sports. Our chances at the division just went up.

Viva Medias B's
03-09-2010, 10:39 AM
Injuries are a part of sports. Our chances at the division just went up.

As Sox fans, we will not lose sleep over this enhancing our chances of winning the AL Central. Nevertheless, it's still a shame this is happening to Nathan. I'd rather have one of our batters face a healthy Nathan and take him deep for a walkoff home run.

dickallen15
03-09-2010, 10:40 AM
I wonder if Twins insured Nathan's contract. If they did, there will be guys out there they can get if they are prepared to pay some cash funds.

Lip Man 1
03-09-2010, 11:06 AM
A hammer blow to them but they have always been resilient so while this is going to hurt them considerably they may figure out a way to get through it.

I'm not unhappy this helps the Sox chances though. At 35 you wonder if this will be it for him.

Lip

ChiSox81
03-09-2010, 11:09 AM
Wow what a break. I thought before that the Twins would be able to stay close till around september or so before we pulled away but now that won't be happening. This is going to be a great season for us.

Viva Medias B's
03-09-2010, 11:15 AM
On his Twitter page (http://twitter.com/cst_sox), Cowley makes a comment about KW and a Nathan voodoo doll.

JohnTucker0814
03-09-2010, 11:39 AM
I don't wish injury upon anyone, but if it gives us a better chance at winning the division I'm all for it. In 2005 Torii hunter only played a little over 90 games, so that might have helped us win the division. Does anyone remember he was injured that year??? NO! So in hindsight it doesn't matter if the other teams in your division all get injured, it's what you do in the playoffs if you get there!

asindc
03-09-2010, 11:47 AM
I don't wish injury upon anyone, but if it gives us a better chance at winning the division I'm all for it. In 2005 Torii hunter only played a little over 90 games, so that might have helped us win the division. Does anyone remember he was injured that year??? NO! So in hindsight it doesn't matter if the other teams in your division all get injured, it's what you do in the playoffs if you get there!

I remember, but I also remember that Big Frank, El Duque, and Hermanson all missed time for injuries as well. While I certainly do not celebrate anyone's injury and I would rather beat them when they are at their best, the Sox have had to overcome significant injuries to win on more than one occasion (see Quentin and Contreras, circa 2008).

thedudeabides
03-09-2010, 11:57 AM
This is really not as bad as many may believe. A closer is the easiest piece of a successful team to replace.

Any position or starting pitching spot is more difficult to fill, so I think Gardenhire will be giving more effort to who the fifth starter is than finding a replacement closer.

Between Guerrier, Rausch, or even Liriano someone will emerge.... and finish with 35+ saves for the season and an ERA of under 0.00 against the White Sox (or it would seem).

I don't really agree with that. This isn't any closer. This guy has been one of the top closers in the game, for a long time. He's as close to Mariano Rivera as it gets. Here's some of their numbers from the last six years.

Nathan Rivera
Saves 246 243
Save % 90.8 93.1
ERA 1.87 1.90
K/9 11.1 8.7
Opp. BA .182 .206
WHIP .093 .094


He's absolutely dominant in his role. Not only will it be difficult to replace him, but you are now shifting your bullpen up an inning, giving more innings to lesser pitchers.

And for a starting staff that has question marks, you need a strong deep bullpen. This weakens the entire pen.

I know people think the Twins can replace anyone, but it's not true. They haven't replaced Santana, and they haven't replaced Hunter. They haven't even been able to replace Jason Bartlett and Matt Garza.

However, they are resilient and usually will find a way to improve the team in other ways. They may now go and sign Washburn and move one of the other guys to the pen, or go out and obtain Heath Bell. Who knows, but I expect they will do something. It's a big loss. By no means does it knock them out of contention, but it's a big loss.

Nothing kills a team more than struggling to hold a lead in the late innings of a game. It wears a team down fast, and can mentally break a team. That's why I expect the Twins to do something. They value the bullpen very highly.

102605
03-09-2010, 12:08 PM
I knew something was wrong with Nathan starting at the end of last year. It may not have been torn then but I think his age and the physical toll on his arm caught up with him.

Nathan was completely dominating to the White Sox over the past few years. I can't say that I am not a little bit happy that his run is likely over.

thomas35forever
03-09-2010, 12:19 PM
This will be HUGE in the division race. Even if Nathan comes back, does anyone think he'll still be dominating? Like others have said, I feel better about our chances now than I did before.

JB98
03-09-2010, 12:19 PM
This sucks. I want the Sox to beat the best, not get lucky by having the best get hurt.

I've never understood comments like this. I just want the Sox to win, and if they do, I will celebrate regardless of the circumstances.

GoGoCrede
03-09-2010, 12:35 PM
I've never understood comments like this. I just want the Sox to win, and if they do, I will celebrate regardless of the circumstances.

+1 I'll take any break we can possibly get. If we win the division, I'm not going to care if the Twins were splintered, as long as we're celebrating.

And of course, I wish Nathan nothing but the best. And I wish for his team a second place finish behind us.

asindc
03-09-2010, 12:38 PM
+1 I'll take any break we can possibly get. If we win the division, I'm not going to care if the Twins were splintered, as long as we're celebrating.

And of course, I wish Nathan nothing but the best. And I wish for his team a second place finish behind us.

I wish for them to finish in last place.

GoGoCrede
03-09-2010, 12:42 PM
I wish for them to finish in last place.

It will be much more devastating for them if they're in the race all year long and finish 2 or 3 GB. :cool:

edit - But more stressful for us, I imagine.

SoxSpeed22
03-09-2010, 12:49 PM
That really does suck for Nathan. He was a terrific pitcher over the years, but if he cannot get the bite on his slider back, he might not be able to finish games anymore. Especially since he will be 36 next season and already has a ton of mileage on him. Eric Gagne has taught us how fast power closers can fall off after Tommy John surgery. Even if he doesn't have the surgery, he will be pitching hurt all year, which never ends well.
As for the rest of the Twins, **** 'em. Every year, I root for them to go 0-162.

Noneck
03-09-2010, 12:57 PM
Did anyone else not realize that Nathan is 35 (36 in November)? I thought he was in his late 20s/early 30s.

I'll claim ignorance on this one. I thought the same, late 20's early 30's.

hawkjt
03-09-2010, 01:24 PM
When Gordon and Paulie took him deep in the Metrodump in that last game last year, I knew the Nathan era of dominance over the Sox was over!!! Just did not know it would end so quickly and decisively.

So long Joe...been bad to know you.
Twins will come up with something,tho...they always do.

WhiteSox5187
03-09-2010, 01:30 PM
This isn't much of a surprise, he was getting hit fairly good in September and as I recall it seemed like the Twins kept trotting him out there day after day during the stretch run. My dad has a friend who is a doctor who has done some of those "pending passing of a physical" thing for players from certain teams and when asked about a pitcher's arm he said "Really, any of them can go at any minute. The human elbow is just not meant to move that way."

spawn
03-09-2010, 01:31 PM
Did anyone else not realize that Nathan is 35 (36 in November)? I thought he was in his late 20s/early 30s. Honestly a torn UCL can be career threatening for someone at his age, especially a power pitcher.
Before today, I had no idea. I also thought he was younger.

RedHeadPaleHoser
03-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Before today, I had no idea. I also thought he was younger.

The guy doesn't look 36. Too bad about his elbow, but I won't mind watching the White Sox use this as an advantage.

whitem0nkey
03-09-2010, 02:25 PM
That's rough. He's probably the most or 2nd most lock down guy in the MLB, when healthy.

pythons007
03-09-2010, 02:44 PM
Before today, I had no idea. I also thought he was younger.

Yes, I didn't know he was that old either. But it seems like he's been in Minnesota dominated the Sox for more than a decade!!!!

HomeFish
03-09-2010, 03:07 PM
What can Minnesota give us for Jenks?

gobears1987
03-09-2010, 03:17 PM
What can Minnesota give us for Jenks?

You don't trade with a division rival when both teams will be in contention.

Twins_Morneau
03-09-2010, 03:32 PM
Say it ain't so Joe.:(:

jabrch
03-09-2010, 03:33 PM
I don't cheer for injuries - blah blah blah...

But I'm thrilled to death to see that the Thomes lineup, in addition to having holes in the rotation and the pen, is now missing their closer.

Noneck
03-09-2010, 03:36 PM
But I'm thrilled to death to see that the Thomes lineup, in addition to having holes in the rotation and the pen, is now missing their closer.

Give it up, its ridiculous and will never catch on.

oeo
03-09-2010, 03:44 PM
Rauch isn't saving 40 games. I know he was great when they acquired him last year, but he's still been pretty meh in his career, in the NL nonetheless.

jabrch
03-09-2010, 03:46 PM
Rauch isn't saving 40 games. I know he was great when they acquired him last year, but he's still been pretty meh in his career, in the NL nonetheless.

If their plan is John Rauch, I vote for it. If they want to take Kerry Wood from Cleveland, I'd vote for that too.

oeo
03-09-2010, 03:48 PM
That really does suck for Nathan. He was a terrific pitcher over the years, but if he cannot get the bite on his slider back, he might not be able to finish games anymore. Especially since he will be 36 next season and already has a ton of mileage on him. Eric Gagne has taught us how fast power closers can fall off after Tommy John surgery. Even if he doesn't have the surgery, he will be pitching hurt all year, which never ends well.
As for the rest of the Twins, **** 'em. Every year, I root for them to go 0-162.

Eric Gagne was a PED user. Though I agree, this is probably it for Nathan's career.

The average closer has a short lifespan, which is why I thought they should have dealt Nathan instead of giving him that big contract a couple years ago.

kittle42
03-09-2010, 03:51 PM
I don't cheer for injuries - blah blah blah...

But I'm thrilled to death to see that the Thomes lineup, in addition to having holes in the rotation and the pen, is now missing their closer.

Give it up, its ridiculous and will never catch on.

That, and it started, I think, as a knock against people complaining that the Sox made a poor decision to go DH-by-committee instead of resigning Thome. jab mistook what the crowd was saying and turned it into "signing Thome makes the Twins great," which is really not what anyone was saying.

kittle42
03-09-2010, 03:51 PM
If their plan is John Rauch, I vote for it. If they want to take Kerry Wood from Cleveland, I'd vote for that too.

Yes and yes.

Lip Man 1
03-09-2010, 03:52 PM
The only relief pitcher that I know of about the same age, who had this type of surgery was Billy Wagner.

Lip

jabrch
03-09-2010, 03:56 PM
That, and it started, I think, as a knock against people complaining that the Sox made a poor decision to go DH-by-committee instead of resigning Thome. jab mistook what the crowd was saying and turned it into "signing Thome makes the Twins great," which is really not what anyone was saying.

Kittle, I understood what people meant. I just don't believe Jim Thome would have made us significantly better than what we have. And other people did make a much bigger deal out of it - not necesarily you - than it should have been. The decision to not sign Jim was probably based on a talent evaluation and the possibility of other things in the short term (Damon) or the longer term (Adrian Gonzalez, Berkman, etc.) I just didn't (and still don't) understand the hand wringing. (now maybe it was just a few people, but it made no sense to me. As far as the Thomes go, I like it. You don't have to. Nor does anyone else. But as we go through the season, I intend on keeping an eye on Jim's impact...just to see how big/small a deal it could possibly have been.


How silly was the response to Thome signing? Judge for yourself.... http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=117829&highlight=Thome

Foulke You
03-09-2010, 04:11 PM
I don't wish injury upon anyone, but if it gives us a better chance at winning the division I'm all for it. In 2005 Torii hunter only played a little over 90 games, so that might have helped us win the division. Does anyone remember he was injured that year??? NO! So in hindsight it doesn't matter if the other teams in your division all get injured, it's what you do in the playoffs if you get there!
Great post. I'm sure nobody in Minnesota remembers or cares that in 2004, the Sox lost Maggs and Frank Thomas to season ending injuries which essentially handed the division title to Minnesota. Before those two big sticks went down, we had just added Freddy Garcia via trade in June and were in control of the division. The rest was history. Twins go on to win another division title and crap the bed to the Yankees losing 3 games to 1. Injuries are simply part of the game. I won't care at all if the Twins struggle to find a closer to replace Nathan and we end up winning the division by 2 or 3 games over them.

Twins_Morneau
03-09-2010, 04:12 PM
Rauch isn't saving 40 games. I know he was great when they acquired him last year, but he's still been pretty meh in his career, in the NL nonetheless.

I'd put my money on Mijares emerging as the closer.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2857568377_62578905fc.jpg?v=0

DumpJerry
03-09-2010, 04:39 PM
Brett Favre has had pretty good luck lately throwing the ball in Minnesota........

soxinem1
03-09-2010, 04:47 PM
I don't really agree with that. This isn't any closer. This guy has been one of the top closers in the game, for a long time. He's as close to Mariano Rivera as it gets. Here's some of their numbers from the last six years.

Nathan Rivera
Saves 246 243
Save % 90.8 93.1
ERA 1.87 1.90
K/9 11.1 8.7
Opp. BA .182 .206
WHIP .093 .094


He's absolutely dominant in his role. Not only will it be difficult to replace him, but you are now shifting your bullpen up an inning, giving more innings to lesser pitchers.

And for a starting staff that has question marks, you need a strong deep bullpen. This weakens the entire pen.

I know people think the Twins can replace anyone, but it's not true. They haven't replaced Santana, and they haven't replaced Hunter. They haven't even been able to replace Jason Bartlett and Matt Garza.

However, they are resilient and usually will find a way to improve the team in other ways. They may now go and sign Washburn and move one of the other guys to the pen, or go out and obtain Heath Bell. Who knows, but I expect they will do something. It's a big loss. By no means does it knock them out of contention, but it's a big loss.

Nothing kills a team more than struggling to hold a lead in the late innings of a game. It wears a team down fast, and can mentally break a team. That's why I expect the Twins to do something. They value the bullpen very highly.

You are over-analyzing what I stated. I never said Nathan was neither an excellent closer nor one of the best. I stated that replacing a closer is easier than replacing a starting pitcher or starting position player.

After all, Nathan was a failed starter who couldn't find the plate and a set up reliever who was thrown into the role by MIN and thrived.

For the most part, closers are either former set up men (Rivera) or failed starters (Jenks, Nathan, and Rivera).

If a failed 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, or whatever fails, he becomes a bench player, traded, cut, or sent to AAA.

Thus, I still maintain it is easier to find/develop/trade for a closer than it is for any other starting position.

voodoochile
03-09-2010, 04:49 PM
Putz, Hudson and Flowers for Mauer...

done and done...

soxinem1
03-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Putz, Hudson and Flowers for Mauer...

done and done...

Doesn't Putz have to have 90 days on the team before he can be traded?

And they will need a C to replace Mauer. Does this mean we throw AJ in there too?:smile:

Foulke You
03-09-2010, 05:07 PM
I'd put my money on Mijares emerging as the closer.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2857568377_62578905fc.jpg?v=0
Can't say I know too much about him. If the Twins want to contend, it is a lot to ask of a rookie to fill the closer role. The Sox had some luck with Bobby Jenks doing just that so it isn't impossible. It's just risky. Anything would be a better option than Jon Rauch though. If I'm Gardenhire, I'm picking Guerrier as the closer. He was arguably the Twins best relief pitcher last year and is a veteran who is less likely to crack under the bright lights.

SOXSINCE'70
03-09-2010, 06:06 PM
The Sox had some luck with Bobby Jenks doing just that so it isn't impossible. It's just risky.

Yes,it is. And remember, when Jenks became the closer in '05,the Sox had a 15 game lead.That makes it a little easier to ease your way into a roll.

1989
03-09-2010, 07:13 PM
I wish for them to finish in last place.

0-162 is preferable

hoosiersoxfan
03-09-2010, 07:28 PM
How about 57-105 with all 57 of their wins against KC, Detroit, and Cleveland

0-162 is preferable

samurai_sox
03-09-2010, 09:28 PM
As Sox fans, we will not lose sleep over this enhancing our chances of winning the AL Central. Nevertheless, it's still a shame this is happening to Nathan. I'd rather have one of our batters face a healthy Nathan and take him deep for a walkoff home run.

Right....

because thats happened so many times before.

oeo
03-09-2010, 10:15 PM
I'd put my money on Mijares emerging as the closer.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2857568377_62578905fc.jpg?v=0

The guy has been a great lefty specialist, but hasn't been so hot against right-handed hitters.

voodoochile
03-10-2010, 12:01 AM
Doesn't Putz have to have 90 days on the team before he can be traded?

And they will need a C to replace Mauer. Does this mean we throw AJ in there too?:smile:

Flowers or AJ take their pick. I figured they'd rather have Flowers because of age and the fact AJ isn't exactly well loved in Minnesota anymore.

jabrch
03-10-2010, 12:09 AM
Flowers or AJ take their pick. I figured they'd rather have Flowers because of age and the fact AJ isn't exactly well loved in Minnesota anymore.

Can I get some of what you are snorting?

I know that you know that I know that....there is 0.000% chance that they trade Mauer to the Sox.

doublem23
03-10-2010, 04:40 AM
The guy has been a great lefty specialist, but hasn't been so hot against right-handed hitters.

Absolutely the same thing could have been said about Nathan the year before he was traded to Minnesota and became their closer.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=nathajo01&year=2003&t=p#plato

EDIT: I don't mean this to be a put-down; I had to look up Nathan's pre-closer stats. The point is closing is a different animal that some otherwise mediocre pitchers flourish in and some good pitchers can't handle. I haven't seen much of Mijares, but I definitely think he's got the "stuff" to be an above average closer if he can handle the pressure.

voodoochile
03-10-2010, 08:26 AM
Can I get some of what you are snorting?

I know that you know that I know that....there is 0.000% chance that they trade Mauer to the Sox.

And I hope you know that I know that's true and was clearly being sarcastic...

jabrch
03-10-2010, 09:33 AM
And I hope you know that I know that's true and was clearly being sarcastic...


I know that you know that I know that you know.... :-)

Yes - I knew...just having fun.

soxinem1
03-10-2010, 09:42 PM
The guy has been a great lefty specialist, but hasn't been so hot against right-handed hitters.

Eddie Guardado was given the same rep when he was a LOOGY. He was an excellent closer for MIN when he was put in the role.

Ya never know......

bunty_doghunter
03-17-2010, 01:25 PM
0-162 is preferable

And get first draft choice??

balke
03-19-2010, 07:52 AM
Nathan's going to throw this weekend to see if he can pitch with a torn ulnar collateral ligament. Doesn't want to miss what will be a "big season" in Minny.

What a badass - but sounds pretty risky.

P.S. I don't really like the Twins odds even with Nathan. They need more SP. And I think they kicked themselves in the nuts losing a dome. That team was built on turf.

Lip Man 1
03-19-2010, 09:45 AM
Todd Jones in the print edition of The Sporting News this week says that playing in cold weather "will kill; absolutely kill the Twins." (direct quote).

Lip

jabrch
03-19-2010, 09:45 AM
Nathan's going to throw this weekend to see if he can pitch with a torn ulnar collateral ligament.

I am not a doctor...Docs out there - is this the kind of injury that once it is torn, you can't make it worse? Or is he risking due to the delicate balance of the tendons and ligaments, doing more damage to other muscles/tissues?

I can't imagine management would let him throw if there was any risk of further long term damage. They are on the hook for over 25mm to him.

khan
03-19-2010, 11:23 AM
P.S. I don't really like the Twins odds even with Nathan. They need more SP. And I think they kicked themselves in the nuts losing a dome. That team was built on turf.

Let's just stop thinking this. Just because some mopes on ESPN and morons in the local media say this, doesn't make it so.

The Twins have ****-tons of sluggers. Say that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over to yourself and to others until the "Twins are built on turf" bull**** goes away.

Again:

They have Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, and Kubel, who are ALL SLUGGERS. They also have Jim Thome who is, again, A SLUGGER. They have more players that are capable of 30+ HR than are capable of 30+ SB this season. For that matter, they have more SLUGGERS in Minnesota than our White Sox have. Look at their roster and their roster's recent statistics, and then compare it to the SOX's.

The "pirhanas" and "The Twins are built on turf" is not a reflection of the REALITY of that team. They hit the **** out of the ball.

Nellie_Fox
03-19-2010, 11:38 AM
Todd Jones in the print edition of The Sporting News this week says that playing in cold weather "will kill; absolutely kill the Twins." (direct quote).

Lip
Yeah, because they were always terrible in the 60's and 70's when they played in Metropolitan Stadium.

Who the hell is Todd Jones?

balke
03-19-2010, 11:53 AM
Let's just stop thinking this. Just because some mopes on ESPN and morons in the local media say this, doesn't make it so.

The Twins have ****-tons of sluggers. Say that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over to yourself and to others until the "Twins are built on turf" bull**** goes away.

Again:

They have Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, and Kubel, who are ALL SLUGGERS. They also have Jim Thome who is, again, A SLUGGER. They have more players that are capable of 30+ HR than are capable of 30+ SB this season. For that matter, they have more SLUGGERS in Minnesota than our White Sox have. Look at their roster and their roster's recent statistics, and then compare it to the SOX's.

The "pirhanas" and "The Twins are built on turf" is not a reflection of the REALITY of that team. They hit the **** out of the ball.



I've watched the Twins for a long time now. The current team is less turfy than it has been in recent years, but recent success has come with turf play. An outfield who can close any gap and guys who can bunt and extend hits into extra bases.

Now that they gave up on turf - they won't have the little advantages hitting wise. But more importantly - they won't have the pitching advantage. For a team with as small of a budget as they have - and Mauer entering a contract year... I think this was a bad decision to build an outdoor stadium. How long can a team like this afford to pay sluggers? How many ace pitchers are they going to grow who can pitch in the elements without the defensive advantage? I'd say fewer.

Nellie_Fox
03-19-2010, 11:59 AM
I think this was a bad decision to build an outdoor stadium.Don't you have to evaluate a decision based on what the options were? Their only options were to stay in the Metrodome or have the outdoor stadium. A retractable roof was not going to happen because the taxpayers were simply not going to pay for one. Remember, the entire population of Minnesota is less than the Chicago metro area. And with the budget problems Minnesota is now facing, they're lucky they got what they did when they did.

balke
03-19-2010, 12:02 PM
I haven't looked at it from that perspective. Anything beats the baggy dome as an attraction. I just think its going to work against them as a winning franchise.

khan
03-19-2010, 12:16 PM
I've watched the Twins for a long time now. The current team is less turfy than it has been in recent years, but recent success has come with turf play. An outfield who can close any gap and guys who can bunt and extend hits into extra bases.
What the hell does that even mean?

Actually, their recent success lies in having the 2006 AL MVP and the 2009 AL MVP in the same team. It also has helped to have 4 players with OPS' that exceed or are near to .850. Bunting and extending hits into extra bases means little to nothing, compared to having 2 MVPs in your lineup.

Now that they gave up on turf - they won't have the little advantages hitting wise. But more importantly - they won't have the pitching advantage. For a team with as small of a budget as they have - and Mauer entering a contract year... I think this was a bad decision to build an outdoor stadium. How long can a team like this afford to pay sluggers? How many ace pitchers are they going to grow who can pitch in the elements without the defensive advantage? I'd say fewer.
1. The "little advantages" and "bunting/extending base hits" is all media bull****. AGAIN: They hit the **** out of the ball. Period, end of story.

2. Whether or not they can pay sluggers in 2011 and beyond means exactly jack and **** with respect to their lineup hitting the **** out of the ball in 2010.

balke
03-19-2010, 12:44 PM
What the hell does that even mean?

Actually, their recent success lies in having the 2006 AL MVP and the 2009 AL MVP in the same team. It also has helped to have 4 players with OPS' that exceed or are near to .850. Bunting and extending hits into extra bases means little to nothing, compared to having 2 MVPs in your lineup.


1. The "little advantages" and "bunting/extending base hits" is all media bull****. AGAIN: They hit the **** out of the ball. Period, end of story.

2. Whether or not they can pay sluggers in 2011 and beyond means exactly jack and **** with respect to their lineup hitting the **** out of the ball in 2010.


There's a lot of teams out there with 2 great hitters back to back. The Twins have done it time and again by making the big catch in the gap, getting the infield 2 hop chopper to put runners on and extend the inning, and by playing solid defense.

This isn't media BS, I haven't heard anything about the Twins on any news outlet talk about this. This is coming straight to you from a Sox fan's perspective.

They do have hitters, the best 1-2 punch in baseball possibly. 2 guys won't win a championship. And long term, I see playing outdoors changing the way they've constructed division championships.

I think the days of them being able to throw out Jacque Jones type players and take the division are coming to an end. I also don't see it being a near automatic loss for the Sox to go to Minnesota anymore.

khan
03-19-2010, 01:02 PM
There's a lot of teams out there with 2 great hitters back to back.
Sure. And how many of these so-called "turfy" teams have FOUR .850 OPS [or higher] LUMBERJACKS, plus a Hall of Famer lefty slugger as their LH pinch hitter?

The Twins have done it time and again by making the big catch in the gap, getting the infield 2 hop chopper to put runners on and extend the inning, and by playing solid defense.
No offense to you, but this is stupid media crap. Good defense is an advantage for a team, whether the team plays on turf, on The Sodfather's grass, on crushed gravel, on mud, or on a crappy park district field.

And again, the "infield 2 hopper" is yet MORE media bull****. The Twins have FOUR LUMBERJACKS. We have a "maybe" in an aging Paul Konerko, and another "maybe" in an oft-injured Carlos Quentin in the power department. Let's stop thinking like this is 2002. These aren't the old school Twins that couldn't hit for power.

This isn't media BS, I haven't heard anything about the Twins on any news outlet talk about this. This is coming straight to you from a Sox fan's perspective.
And you have bought the media bull**** hook, line, and sinker. Look at their numbers for the most recent seasons, and then tell us if they have more sluggers, or more "punching judies" in that lineup.

They do have hitters, the best 1-2 punch in baseball possibly. 2 guys won't win a championship.
Last I checked, they had 4 .850 OPS sluggers, compared to the SOX's ZERO in 2009. They slugged their way to a DIVISION CHAMPIONSHIP, last I checked.

I think the days of them being able to throw out Jacque Jones type players and take the division are coming to an end. I also don't see it being a near automatic loss for the Sox to go to Minnesota anymore.
Jacque Jones last played for the Twins in 2005. Do we as SOX fans still think of OUR team as being the same as in 2005? I don't think so. So why do you see the Twins as being the same as THEY were back then?

Again: The Twins hit the crap out of the ball. They are a somewhat talented team that does have their deficiencies. But they aren't the same as they were 5 or even 3 years ago.

balke
03-19-2010, 01:07 PM
Jacque Jones last played for the Twins in 2005. Do we as SOX fans still think of OUR team as being the same as in 2005?


Noone to my knowledge on the Twins is a lumberjack.
Jacque Jones is on the team RIGHT NOW.
Its not media anything - haven't watched the media.
Thome isn't good anymore, and probably won't get more than 350 ABs this season.

I also don't believe in Cuddyer's year as being the standard for him. I'd be surprised on Kubel getting over 25 Hr's again as well.

balke
03-19-2010, 01:34 PM
And again, the "infield 2 hopper" is yet MORE media bull****. These aren't the old school Twins that couldn't hit for power.



The Twins high OPS. came from doubles and triples. Both the White Sox and Tigers had more Hrs last year. Which is exactly what I'm talking about with faster turf and faster players using the field to their advantage.

Get off the hall of fame lefty bit. I doubt you were singing Thome's praises that loud last season.

doublem23
03-19-2010, 01:40 PM
Who the hell is Todd Jones?


That boneheaded ex-closer for the Tigers.

Lip Man 1
03-19-2010, 03:32 PM
Who is now one of the baseball folks for The Sporting News. Your point Nellie is somewhat valid, it wasn't a big factor in the past (although baseball may not have been opening as EARLY in the 60's / 70's as they are today) except that this group of players has never had to deal with the conditions they are going to have to face the first month, six weeks both at home and on the road.

Not saying it will happen just passing along his comment. he thinks they are going to be hurt badly by it.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
03-19-2010, 04:06 PM
he thinks they are going to be hurt badly by it.

Lip
And I think he's wrong.