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ramblinsoxfan11
02-26-2010, 10:52 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2071246,CST-SPT-1bestsox26.article

Interesting article, although it definitely annoyed me that the picture of Frank is him batting at Wrigley Field... but I guess only a bitter Sox fan would even notice that :tongue:

cbotnyse
02-26-2010, 10:56 AM
I think Aparicio should be top 3, not 7.

thomas35forever
02-26-2010, 10:57 AM
I like the list though I think Fisk should have been higher. I wonder Paulie's success in '05 as well as the WS pushed him in front of the HOFer.

Gammons Peter
02-26-2010, 11:25 AM
Fisk should be top 10 not 17 and Dick Allen at number 6?? is that a joke. If he's 6 then Albert Belle is 7

asindc
02-26-2010, 11:30 AM
Pauly, Thome, Maggs are too high. Shoeless and Lyons are too low.

WhiffleBall
02-26-2010, 11:35 AM
Great read with good pics. Ed Walsh going 40-15 (464 innings!) with a 1.42 ERA in 1908 is simply incredible.

soltrain21
02-26-2010, 11:37 AM
Robin Ventura should be 1b. I suppose Frank can be 1a.

Nellie_Fox
02-26-2010, 11:54 AM
Robin Ventura should be 1b.:rolleyes:

soltrain21
02-26-2010, 12:05 PM
:rolleyes:

Sorry. Won't make jokes.

eriqjaffe
02-26-2010, 12:41 PM
They totally forgot Aaron Rowand!

twinsuck
02-26-2010, 01:09 PM
Where's BA?? :o:

TDog
02-26-2010, 01:17 PM
No one will agree on a top-50 list spanning 1.1 centuries. No one saw all of these players play. Some recent players place better because of familiarity and a few older players place better because their legend has grown. For other players, the reverse is true. It isn't a question of statistics. Albert Belle and Dick Allen each had one great White Sox season, and Belle's was statistically superior. But Allen's was the more dominant season when you look at what he did compared to the rest of the league and the fact that he nearly carried the White Sox to the ALCS, two years after the team lost 106 games, despite competing in the same division as one of the greatest teams of the era. Ray Durham at No. 50 made me laugh, and I would have placed Harold Baines higher, but it is all opinion.

Frank Thomas over Luke Appling for 1 and 2 is probably fair. In 1969, Appling was the consensus greatest White Sox player. Thomas ended up a designated hitter in large part because he was a defensive liability, but Appling holds the distinction of having committed more errors than any other member of baseball's Hall of Fame (unless you use the term less statistically and count Commissioner Landis).

Nellie_Fox
02-26-2010, 01:20 PM
Sorry. Won't make jokes.Feel free to make jokes. I just couldn't tell it was a joke.

g0g0
02-26-2010, 01:20 PM
Why do they list Konerko as 99-09?? Do they know something we don't? I would have put Fisk and Baines higher and Dick Allen lower. I think longevity is an important factor.

getonbckthr
02-26-2010, 01:21 PM
I'm guessing this was purely by way of stats. However if I creating a 50 greatest Sox I would probably have Podsednik in there between 47-50 simply because in my opinion he was one of, if not thee most important parts of our only World Series in 90 years.

Jpgr91
02-26-2010, 01:27 PM
Did I miss something, or did Harold Baines not make the list?

EDIT: Nevermind, I missed him at 12.

raven1
02-26-2010, 01:29 PM
Great list - you can argue the placement of some of them but for the most part they got it right about who deserves to be on it. The only thing that really annoyed me was that they originally got Aparicio's picture wrong! I checked back recently & they eventually fixed it.

RhubarbStew
02-26-2010, 01:46 PM
Fan voting has Frank in 4th.:scratch:

SI1020
02-26-2010, 02:10 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2071246,CST-SPT-1bestsox26.article

Interesting article, although it definitely annoyed me that the picture of Frank is him batting at Wrigley Field... but I guess only a bitter Sox fan would even notice that :tongue: I could have made a much better list, but nobody asked me. Mark Buehrle and Billy Pierce really get downgraded, just for two examples.

LITTLE NELL
02-26-2010, 03:07 PM
Fisk should be top 10 not 17 and Dick Allen at number 6?? is that a joke. If he's 6 then Albert Belle is 7

Correct, Allen spent 2.5 years on the Southside. Fisk had 13 years with the Sox and is in the HOF.

Tragg
02-26-2010, 08:23 PM
LaMarr Hoyt is way underrated, espeically if Dick Allen makes the top 10 for 1 great season ( albeit real great - best single season ever by a Sox in my lifetime, imo; and it came at a key, key time).
Lot of omissions, and some players on the list who aren't close to top 50 (but don't want to open that can of worms).

Zisk77
02-26-2010, 08:41 PM
No Zisk, ***?

Brian26
02-26-2010, 09:11 PM
Dick Allen's '72 Season: 37 HR, 113 RBI, .308

Konerko '05: 40 HR, 100 RBI, .283
Konerko '06: 35 HR, 113 RBI, .313

Do people think of Allen's '72 season so fondly because of the poor players/teams that book-ended his 2.5 years in Chicago, or is it because he played in bigger parks against better pitching?

Either way, when you consider longevity, Konerko should be listed above Richie Allen. Allen at #6 is a bit of a joke. There's no way Allen should be ahead of Aparicio either.

I'd put both Pierce and MB ahead of Mags too.

Tragg
02-26-2010, 09:22 PM
Dick Allen's '72 Season: 37 HR, 113 RBI, .308

Konerko '05: 40 HR, 100 RBI, .283
Konerko '06: 35 HR, 113 RBI, .313

Do people think of Allen's '72 season so fondly because of the poor players/teams that book-ended his 2.5 years in Chicago, or is it because he played in bigger parks against better pitching?.
He won MVP that year with 96% of the vote.
He had an OPS+ of 199! Konerko's best was 136. V. the era and the competition, Allen's 1972 destroys any Konerko year.

He carried the team on his shoulders and the team contended right down to the wire against a dynasty team. He did it at a critical time in the organization. And it was a much more of a pitcher's era in a pitcher's ballpark.

asindc
02-26-2010, 09:30 PM
Dick Allen's '72 Season: 37 HR, 113 RBI, .308

Konerko '05: 40 HR, 100 RBI, .283
Konerko '06: 35 HR, 113 RBI, .313

Do people think of Allen's '72 season so fondly because of the poor players/teams that book-ended his 2.5 years in Chicago, or is it because he played in bigger parks against better pitching?

Either way, when you consider longevity, Konerko should be listed above Richie Allen. Allen at #6 is a bit of a joke. There's no way Allen should be ahead of Aparicio either.

I'd put both Pierce and MB ahead of Mags too.

Dick Allen's '72 season is second only to Frank's '94 season in my lifetime (I was born in 1961). Keep in mind that old Comiskey had pitcher's dimensions, which is a big reason why Melton was the first Sox to lead the league in HR for a season in 1971. If you want to put Konerko ahead of Allen because of longevity, I have no argument with that, but Pauly can only dream of having a season like Allen's '72.

Brian26
02-26-2010, 09:57 PM
Dick Allen's '72 season is second only to Frank's '94 season in my lifetime (I was born in 1961). Keep in mind that old Comiskey had pitcher's dimensions, which is a big reason why Melton was the first Sox to lead the league in HR for a season in 1971. If you want to put Konerko ahead of Allen because of longevity, I have no argument with that, but Pauly can only dream of having a season like Allen's '72.

I thought Comiskey was back to her original dimensions for the '72 season after they took down that silly cyclone fence around the warning track, and I believe the original home plate location was still intact for that season before they changed it for the Kittle/Luzinski era. That definitely makes the '72 season more special relative to what Allen was working against. I still can't justify his placement as 6th all-time for that one great year.

SI1020
02-26-2010, 10:06 PM
This was a pitcher's era when Allen had his MVP season in 72. Believe me, if you were there you'd realize how good he was that year and how much he meant to the team. Dick Allen was IMHO the most talented man I ever saw play for the Sox. He did so many little things well including hitting the ball so hard I sometimes expected it to explode. His time with the Sox was brief but unforgettable. If you're into the newer stats, he stacks up very well in his stint with the Sox. Frank Thomas should be the unanimous choice as the all time best player on the Chicago White Sox. Dick Allen, despite his brief time with the team definitely deserves a spot in the top ten. His lack of recognition in HOF voting is shameful. Dick Allen did it his way, and I don't agree with some of his actions. but have a little faith in this older Sox fan. He really was that good, and he helped save the franchise in one of its more perilous times.

cheezheadsoxfan
02-26-2010, 10:08 PM
I could have made a much better list, but nobody asked me. Mark Buehrle and Billy Pierce really get downgraded, just for two examples.

I'm with you. Maggs higher than Buehrle or Pierce. Headscratcher!

Tragg
02-26-2010, 10:50 PM
Re late 1960s eras pitchers, I'm not sure why Peters is ranked significantly ahead of Horlen....Horlen actually won more games for the Sox. And if Peters is #25, then some consideration should be given to Tommy John, who was right behind Peters and Horlen in the same era...although perhaps 2 is enough.

Bob Locker had a couple of good years out of the pen with the Good Doctor (although certainly not top 50 player).

Nellie_Fox
02-27-2010, 12:41 AM
Dick Allen was IMHO the most talented man I ever saw play for the Sox. He did so many little things well including hitting the ball so hard I sometimes expected it to explode.I'm certain he left flat spots on the ball. Most of his hardest-hit shots were right back up the middle. I often feared that he'd kill a pitcher some day.

He was slightly under 6 feet tall, didn't weigh 200 pounds, and swung a 42 ounce bat. Modern players would have trouble dragging it to the plate. He was unbelievably strong.

soxinem1
02-27-2010, 12:44 AM
It is tough to rank the top 50 of All-Time because longetivity is not common for most of the prominent players who wore a White Sox uniform.

It is also not easy to pick the top 50 because offensive and defensive numbers varied from generation to generation. A guy who hit 20 HR in the 50's-60's was worth more than today. Then he might lead his team, today he'd be in the middle somewhere.

I have no problem with Durham at #50 mainly because other than Nellie Fox, name me another 2B in team history who produced numbers he did at 2B?

I also have no problems with LaMarr Hoyt being ranked where he was, as he only had two good seasons as a starter here. Why make him more than what he was?

Sherm Lollar, IMO, should rank higher. He was a solid hitter and a far better defensive catcher than Fisk was here.

Dick Allen is a bit high as well. Danny Tartabull, Joey Belle, and a few others had solid numbers in short term White Sox careers, even of they were from different eras.

But the rest of the placements are pretty darn close.

Nellie_Fox
02-27-2010, 01:02 AM
I have no problem with Durham at #50 mainly because other than Nellie Fox, name me another 2B in team history who produced numbers he did at 2B?Eddie Collins.

PalehosePlanet
02-27-2010, 01:38 AM
This was a pitcher's era when Allen had his MVP season in 72. Believe me, if you were there you'd realize how good he was that year and how much he meant to the team. Dick Allen was IMHO the most talented man I ever saw play for the Sox. He did so many little things well including hitting the ball so hard I sometimes expected it to explode. His time with the Sox was brief but unforgettable. If you're into the newer stats, he stacks up very well in his stint with the Sox. Frank Thomas should be the unanimous choice as the all time best player on the Chicago White Sox. Dick Allen, despite his brief time with the team definitely deserves a spot in the top ten. His lack of recognition in HOF voting is shameful. Dick Allen did it his way, and I don't agree with some of his actions. but have a little faith in this older Sox fan. He really was that good, and he helped save the franchise in one of its more perilous times.

An absolutely outstanding post. People don't realize that if he were playing now he'd be a $20 million a year player.

I can tell you right now that Dick Allen is the reason I, as well as three other close friends, became Sox fans back in the early '70's. I started watching baseball at a time where The Cubs no longer had Banks, Billy Williams and Ron Santo were nearing the end of their careers and were no longer great players, and Fergie Jenkins was in Montreal. Although my friends and I were North-siders we gravitated to the Sox because of Dick Allen. We begged our dad's to take us to old Comiskey because of Dick Allen; we bought the red Sox caps because of Dick Allen.

"8 O'Clock Thunder" were what some of the fans back then would call him because he would light up the scoreboard in the bottom of the 1st inning. (Note: Games back then started at 7:35 or so.)

His contribution to Sox history cannot be measured simply by the amount of time he spent here. He is a Sox icon for good reason.

Sam Spade
02-27-2010, 02:30 AM
Maggs was phenomenal during his time here. I have no problem with where he is on the list.

Frater Perdurabo
02-27-2010, 07:23 AM
I was born in 1976, so I missed Allen's time with the Sox. But learned what a fearsome player he must have been while watching him play in the 1990 All Star Old Timers' Game at the Urinal. Allen crushed a line drive home run that nearly hit the Urinal's scoreboard.
:o:

soxinem1
02-27-2010, 09:36 AM
Eddie Collins.

Of course he was better than Durham. I didn't mention him because he was already rightfully ranked #3.

But a strong argument can be made for Ray being one of the top five 2B in team history, and even the third best.

SI1020
02-27-2010, 10:59 AM
I liked the fact that they ranked some forgotten players like Willie Kamm, who toiled during the drudgery of the 1920s, and George Davis from the Hitless Wonders of 1906. I also liked that. Willie Kamm was the Brooks Robinson of his day at 3B.

TDog
02-27-2010, 12:02 PM
Of course he was better than Durham. I didn't mention him because he was already rightfully ranked #3.

But a strong argument can be made for Ray being one of the top five 2B in team history, and even the third best.

An argument also can be made that only two second basemen are among the top 50 White Sox players in franchise history.

russ99
02-27-2010, 06:07 PM
An absolutely outstanding post. People don't realize that if he were playing now he'd be a $20 million a year player.

I can tell you right now that Dick Allen is the reason I, as well as three other close friends, became Sox fans back in the early '70's. I started watching baseball at a time where The Cubs no longer had Banks, Billy Williams and Ron Santo were nearing the end of their careers and were no longer great players, and Fergie Jenkins was in Montreal. Although my friends and I were North-siders we gravitated to the Sox because of Dick Allen. We begged our dad's to take us to old Comiskey because of Dick Allen; we bought the red Sox caps because of Dick Allen.

"8 O'Clock Thunder" were what some of the fans back then would call him because he would light up the scoreboard in the bottom of the 1st inning. (Note: Games back then started at 7:35 or so.)

His contribution to Sox history cannot be measured simply by the amount of time he spent here. He is a Sox icon for good reason.

I was a huge fan of Dick Allen back in the day, and he's certainly in the top 15-20 but that he's ahead of Fisk is a travesty.

PalehosePlanet
02-28-2010, 01:03 PM
It is tough to rank the top 50 of All-Time because longetivity is not common for most of the prominent players who wore a White Sox uniform.

It is also not easy to pick the top 50 because offensive and defensive numbers varied from generation to generation. A guy who hit 20 HR in the 50's-60's was worth more than today. Then he might lead his team, today he'd be in the middle somewhere.

I have no problem with Durham at #50 mainly because other than Nellie Fox, name me another 2B in team history who produced numbers he did at 2B?

I also have no problems with LaMarr Hoyt being ranked where he was, as he only had two good seasons as a starter here. Why make him more than what he was?

Sherm Lollar, IMO, should rank higher. He was a solid hitter and a far better defensive catcher than Fisk was here.

Dick Allen is a bit high as well. Danny Tartabull, Joey Belle, and a few others had solid numbers in short term White Sox careers, even of they were from different eras.

But the rest of the placements are pretty darn close.

I have no problem where he is placed on the list, but I feel that Hoyt overall is underrated as far as Sox lore goes.

Yes it's true that he only had two good/great years as a starter here but he was also excellent out of the pen for us prior to his starting. We're talking about a pitcher who won 14 straight decisions (I believe 5 from the pen to finish '81 and 9 straight starts to begin '82) AND 15 straight decisions for us (2nd half of '83; 16 if you count game 1 of the ALCS.)

You'd be hard pressed to find many pitchers that have done that in ML history.

balke
03-01-2010, 08:45 AM
Seeing Frank on this list just makes it sink-in so much harder that there's going to be a big void for the next few years in terms of having that superstar slugger on the Sox. Thome helped the transition - but HOFers like he and Frank don't come around that often.

ode to veeck
03-01-2010, 09:53 AM
I think Aparicio should be top 3, not 7.

He's not gonna bump Appling, Thomas, or Collins, let alone Nellie or Jackson ...

russ99
03-01-2010, 11:36 AM
Seeing Frank on this list just makes it sink-in so much harder that there's going to be a big void for the next few years in terms of having that superstar slugger on the Sox. Thome helped the transition - but HOFers like he and Frank don't come around that often.

I'd assume that going forward is the more normal level of sluggers anyway.

What we saw the last 15 years in the league overall is more due to PEDs than overall talent.

asindc
03-01-2010, 11:48 AM
He's not gonna bump Appling, Thomas, or Collins, let alone Nellie or Jackson ...

Luis Aparicio is my all-time favorite Sox player, and even I would not put him above the guys named above.

WhiteSoxFTW
03-01-2010, 01:04 PM
I know I am jumping in late, but it seems a little silly to me to try and argue the "50 Greatest Sox". You have players across multiple eras, short and long stints with the team, and multiple positions. The Sun-Times and Mark Potash obviously had their own criteria for choosing who was on the list and who ranked where. Some of us younger fans would have Thomas, Maggs, Ventura, etc. higher than some of the older Sox fans.

If you wanted to rank the top-10 pitchers or top-10 outfielders in White Sox history, that would be a lot easier to do. You could set criteria of how long they would have to be with the team and analyze the difference in ERA, AVG, etc. across different eras.

It seems to be the list was supposed to be fun and spark discussion...which I guess it has. :D: