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View Full Version : Ozzie cramming Jones in middle of order vs. lefties


doublem23
02-23-2010, 05:47 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/02/jones-to-handle-dh-duties-vs-left-handers.html

This is like a never ending nightmare of stupidity.

JermaineDye05
02-23-2010, 05:49 PM
Let's watch it fail a couple times before we damn it. Maybe Jones really has turned over a new leaf.

Like most people, I'll believe it when I see it. However, I won't be condemning it before we see it in action.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 05:50 PM
:whatever:

white sox bill
02-23-2010, 05:55 PM
Its still early

Patrick134
02-23-2010, 05:59 PM
Its still early


But he has no hits yet !!!! And an OPS of .00000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gobears1987
02-23-2010, 06:04 PM
Like most people, I'll believe it when I see it. However, I won't be condemning it before we see it in action.

Wow common sense, something severely lacking nowadays from most on this site. Everyone here just wants to rip Ozzie and Kenny before the season begins. Let's at least see this team play before we rip them.

voodoochile
02-23-2010, 06:05 PM
LOL. I love the outrage over something that given the makeup of the team at present is a foregone conclusion.

Hey I got a good idea, how about another thread on how crappy the Sox DH situation is...

munchman33
02-23-2010, 06:05 PM
Let's watch it fail a couple times before we damn it. Maybe Jones really has turned over a new leaf.

Like most people, I'll believe it when I see it. However, I won't be condemning it before we see it in action.

You're right, it might happen. But I wouldn't bet on it. A guy like Jones is supposed to be your backup plan if your regular gets hurt. Not the guy who you're counting on to turn it around in a prime run producing role.

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 06:08 PM
Wow common sense, something severely lacking nowadays from most on this site. Everyone here just wants to rip Ozzie and Kenny before the season begins. Let's at least see this team play before we rip them.


But then you guys will complain when people have legitimate complaints during the season. I've seen it happen many times...

voodoochile
02-23-2010, 06:10 PM
But then you guys will complain when people have legitimate complaints during the season. I've seen it happen many times...

Well goodie for you. Wouldn't be much discussion worth having if everyone agreed now would it? :whistle:

doublem23
02-23-2010, 06:10 PM
Wow common sense, something severely lacking nowadays from most on this site. Everyone here just wants to rip Ozzie and Kenny before the season begins. Let's at least see this team play before we rip them.

Yeah, let's just let Dewayne Wise lead-off again and DON'T QUESTION THAT DECISION because there's no way anyone who doesn't work in baseball could ever, ever, ever see that disaster waiting to happen.

I only hope Ozzie has just as short a leash with Andruw as he did with Dewayne, but I'm not holding my breath since this boner no DH idea is like his baby.

asindc
02-23-2010, 06:10 PM
You're right, it might happen. But I wouldn't bet on it. A guy like Jones is supposed to be your backup plan if your regular gets hurt. Not the guy who you're counting on to turn it around in a prime run producing role.

Likely to be written on a Tigers message board:

You're right, it might happen. But I wouldn't bet on it. A guy like [Brandon Inge] or [Carlos Guillen] is supposed to be your backup plan if your regular gets hurt. Not the guy who you're counting on to turn it around in a prime run producing role.

Likely to be written on a Twinkiees message board:

You're right, it might happen. But I wouldn't bet on it. A guy like [Brendon Harris/Nick Punto] or [Delmon Young] is supposed to be your backup plan if your regular gets hurt. Not the guy who you're counting on to turn it around in a prime run producing role.

doublem23
02-23-2010, 06:12 PM
Well goodie for you. Wouldn't be much discussion worth having if everyone agreed now would it? :whistle:

He's right though, there's a certain element around here that absolutely refuse to let anyone rip on the Sox. Guaranteed that if the Sox are 10 games under .500 in June and they're in the bottom 3 of the American League in offensive production there will still be some posters who will challenge any notion that Ozzie and KW have failed.

DaveFeelsRight
02-23-2010, 06:12 PM
career .256 hitter against righties and .261 against lefties. whatever, same ****.

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 06:12 PM
Well goodie for you. Wouldn't be much discussion worth having if everyone agreed now would it? :whistle:


Why are you so defensive? I was just explaining something that happens around here.

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 06:13 PM
He's right though, there's a certain element around here that absolutely refuse to let anyone rip on the Sox. Guaranteed that if the Sox are 10 games under .500 in June and they're in the bottom 3 of the American League in offensive production there will still be some posters who will challenge any notion that Ozzie and KW have failed.


Amen.

doublem23
02-23-2010, 06:16 PM
Likely to be written on a Tigers message board:

You're right, it might happen. But I wouldn't bet on it. A guy like [Brandon Inge] or [Carlos Guillen] is supposed to be your backup plan if your regular gets hurt. Not the guy who you're counting on to turn it around in a prime run producing role.

Likely to be written on a Twinkiees message board:

You're right, it might happen. But I wouldn't bet on it. A guy like [Brendon Harris/Nick Punto] or [Delmon Young] is supposed to be your backup plan if your regular gets hurt. Not the guy who you're counting on to turn it around in a prime run producing role.

Here's a major difference, Inge, Guillen, Punto, and Young can all play the field. The DH has one job: Hit. Second, the Twins offense is light years ahead of ours, so its OK for them to have 1 little problem. Plus, I don't see where Rob Gardenhire is saying he's going to be playing Nick Punto everyday in the middle of the order. Furthermore, I would take Inge, Guillen, Young, and probably Punto or Harris as our DH over Andruw Jones. Finally, I am relieved that our barometer is apparently other teams that might struggle to win 85 games this year.

asindc
02-23-2010, 06:17 PM
But then you guys will complain when people have legitimate complaints during the season. I've seen it happen many times...

Aside from FOBAs, who complained about complaints about BA?

Who complained about complaints about Betemit?

Who complained about complaints about Lillibridge?

Who complained about complaints about Fields?

Who complained about complaints about Colon?

Who complained about complaints about MacDougal?

By the way, note that all of these players have been replaced by better players.

CLR01
02-23-2010, 06:20 PM
There does not exist a player better than BA.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 06:24 PM
There does not exist a player better than BA.I'm sure their are people here that would rather have BA than Jonesay too...

Tragg
02-23-2010, 06:25 PM
Wow common sense, something severely lacking nowadays from most on this site. Everyone here just wants to rip Ozzie and Kenny before the season begins. Let's at least see this team play before we rip them.
Guillen has a track record on talent evaluation ....and it isn't pretty.
Hell, he had Alexei and Carlos Quentin on the bench, carrying water for Jerry Owens.

Dibbs
02-23-2010, 06:25 PM
I am so disgusted at the thought of a Jones/Kotsay type playing everyday that I don't know how to comment.

For those saying "lets just wait and see because we haven't played yet" have no clue what you are talking about. Jones has been a bum, and will not magically turn around his career.

asindc
02-23-2010, 06:31 PM
Here's a major difference, Inge, Guillen, Punto, and Young can all play the field. The DH has one job: Hit.

Well, Tigers fans certainly don't share your confidence about Inge at 3B with his balky back or Carlos Guillen playing anywhere in the field. Most of them would find it comical, in fact. By the way, Guillen is slated to be the Tigers' DH. And we all know how well Delmon Young plays defense.

Second, the Twins offense is light years ahead of ours, so its OK for them to have 1 little problem. Plus, I don't see where Rob Gardenhire is saying he's going to be playing Nick Punto everyday in the middle of the order.

I say that having Harris/Punto and Young in your regular lineup adds up to more than 2 "little problems." Harris and/or Punto are slated to start at 3B while Young is still slated at LF. If Gardenhire decides to start slow-footed Kubel (with two creaky surgically-repaired knees) in LF ahead of Young and give his DH ABs to Thome, I will applaud the move as an advantage for the Sox, for as bad as Young is in LF, Twinkees fans are dreading Kubel's defensive efforts. DumpJerry might blow a gasket if Kubel was playing LF for the Sox.

Furthermore, I would take Inge, Guillen, Young, and probably Punto or Harris as our DH over Andruw Jones. Finally, I am relieved that our barometer is apparently other teams that might struggle to win 85 games this year.

Our barometer is that we win more games than any other team in our division and position ourselves to compete in the playoffs. The extent to which our competitors have issues at certain positions makes this more likely.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 06:31 PM
Tbh, I'd rather have Nix just be our full time DH.... Good power, probably throws out the same average as Thome, much less OBP but WAY better speed. He's a great base stealer, can play some decent defense... He can actually do the platoon thing with TCQ and Konerko so they can all play almost every day. What happened to the Getz hating and Nix loving group? Let's get this guy some attention!...

DirtySox
02-23-2010, 06:34 PM
It also says Ozzie plans on DHing Vizquel at leadoff against tough LHP.

:puking:

Corlose 15
02-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Here's a major difference, Inge, Guillen, Punto, and Young can all play the field. The DH has one job: Hit. Second, the Twins offense is light years ahead of ours, so its OK for them to have 1 little problem. Plus, I don't see where Rob Gardenhire is saying he's going to be playing Nick Punto everyday in the middle of the order. Furthermore, I would take Inge, Guillen, Young, and probably Punto or Harris as our DH over Andruw Jones. Finally, I am relieved that our barometer is apparently other teams that might struggle to win 85 games this year.


Really? You might want to look up stats before you make these kind of statements. About the only player that makes a convincing argument out of those three is Guillen and he's coming off an injury. Brandon Inge is an absolutely woeful (see what I did there?) hitter, who hasn't had an OBP above .314 since 2005 and struck out 170 times last year. His only value is as a defensive player and the fact he can hit with some power. Young is far from a complete hitter as well, decent average, horrible OBP and not a great slugging percentage.

Out of Inge, Jones, and Young last year Jones had the highest OBP, highest SLG, highest OPS, and the most doubles. He also hit more HR than Young despite having 100 fewer ABs.

I understand you're upset and I'm fine with that, but let's not get crazy here.

asindc
02-23-2010, 06:37 PM
Guillen has a track record on talent evaluation ....and it isn't pretty.
Hell, he had Alexei and Carlos Quentin on the bench, carrying water for Jerry Owens.

This point makes sense, except for the fact that once Owens got healthy again, he never replaced either Alexei or Quentin in the starting lineup.

Corlose 15
02-23-2010, 06:45 PM
This point makes sense, except for the fact that once Owens got healthy again, he never replaced either Alexei or Quentin in the starting lineup.

Or if you take into account that Quentin was coming off a shoulder injury and didn't really start getting into games until the end of camp, and that Alexei was a rookie making a huge cultural adjustment who didn't hit for crap in the cold.

areilly
02-23-2010, 06:47 PM
It also says Ozzie plans on DHing Vizquel at leadoff against tough LHP.

:puking:

The hilarious mental image of this just made my week, if not my year. A defensive specialist as a designated hitter. Fantastic.

cards press box
02-23-2010, 06:48 PM
It also says Ozzie plans on DHing Vizquel at leadoff against tough LHP.

Yeah, Ozzie used to do that with Pablo Ozuna, too. It's no big deal.

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 06:50 PM
Can some of the defenders at least admit that Ozzie makes idiotic decisions? The only good thing about Omar anymore IS his defense.

Boondock Saint
02-23-2010, 06:54 PM
Can some of the defenders at least admit that Ozzie makes idiotic decisions? The only good thing about Omar anymore IS his defense.

Of course Ozzie makes idiotic decisions sometimes. But the thing is, people act like he's the only manager that does that.

asindc
02-23-2010, 06:54 PM
Can some of the defenders at least admit that Ozzie makes idiotic decisions? The only good thing about Omar anymore IS his defense.

Let's see if Vizquel plays DH more often than Ozuna used to before questioning Ozzie's competence. By the way, I don't like every decision he makes, but I question what has happened, not what I speculate will happen. Before you go there, Ozzie's comments do not prove that Vizquel will get anything more than a spot start at DH to give someone else a rest.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Yeah, let's just let Dewayne Wise lead-off again and DON'T QUESTION THAT DECISION because there's no way anyone who doesn't work in baseball could ever, ever, ever see that disaster waiting to happen.

Excellent, excellent analogy.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 06:57 PM
He's right though, there's a certain element around here that absolutely refuse to let anyone rip on the Sox. Guaranteed that if the Sox are 10 games under .500 in June and they're in the bottom 3 of the American League in offensive production there will still be some posters who will challenge any notion that Ozzie and KW have failed.

No, they'll just keep saying we have to wait til the end of the season to complain.

The only complaining which I find pretty silly around here is when panic mode sets in after the first game/series/week of the season based on some ridiculous crap. Always amusing.

In my opinion, preseason complaining about the team makeup - on paper - and moves that have or have not been made in order to put the team in an objectively better position to compete is justified.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 06:58 PM
Of course Ozzie makes idiotic decisions sometimes. But the thing is, people act like he's the only manager that does that.

No one thinks that, though I do question the sanity of people here who, over the past months, have basically admitted that they believed Dusty Baker's comments on "baseclogging" were dead-on.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 07:00 PM
career .256 hitter against righties and .261 against lefties. whatever, same ****.

Forget numbers, trends, etc. Ozzie loves him some L/R matchup-making!

#1swisher
02-23-2010, 07:04 PM
Merkin on Jones

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100223&content_id=8124116&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

doublem23
02-23-2010, 07:21 PM
No, they'll just keep saying we have to wait til the end of the season to complain.

The only complaining which I find pretty silly around here is when panic mode sets in after the first game/series/week of the season based on some ridiculous crap. Always amusing.

In my opinion, preseason complaining about the team makeup - on paper - and moves that have or have not been made in order to put the team in an objectively better position to compete is justified.

I'm not even pissed about the moves as much as I am the philosophy Ozzie seems to have adopted. Really, I can admit that if everything goes right for the Sox this year, they've got a solid team. Problem is there is absolutely no fallback for anything. If any of our starters have a problem, the guy behind them was in A-ball last year. If Quentin gets hurt, our backup OF is a guy the Marlins let go. If Jones doesn't somehow magically find the Fountain of Youth, what is the back-up there?

#1swisher
02-23-2010, 07:25 PM
Andruw Jones mission statement, this is dated 2.20, not sure if it's been posted

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100220&content_id=8104056&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

kittle42
02-23-2010, 07:31 PM
I'm not even pissed about the moves as much as I am the philosophy Ozzie seems to have adopted.

I agree.

JermaineDye05
02-23-2010, 08:03 PM
They just had a piece on Andruw on CSN and I have to say:

Wow, he does appear to be in a lot better shape than he was in the past couple years. PHYSICALLY he looks like the Andruw of old, but it still remains to be see if that will translate into his overall ability to play the game returning back to a respectable standard.

TheVulture
02-23-2010, 08:17 PM
Yeah, Ozzie used to do that with Pablo Ozuna, too. It's no big deal.

That made sense though because Ozuna's only real value was on offense. His versatility had some value, too, but there wasn't an infielder on those teams that Ozuna could equal with the glove, whereas Vizquel is probably the best defensive infielder on this team.

spawn
02-23-2010, 08:40 PM
Of course Ozzie makes idiotic decisions sometimes. But the thing is, people act like he's the only manager that does that.
You mean other managers make boneheaded decisions, not just ours? Who woulda thunk it!

Ranger
02-23-2010, 08:47 PM
Yeah, let's just let Dewayne Wise lead-off again and DON'T QUESTION THAT DECISION because there's no way anyone who doesn't work in baseball could ever, ever, ever see that disaster waiting to happen.

I only hope Ozzie has just as short a leash with Andruw as he did with Dewayne, but I'm not holding my breath since this boner no DH idea is like his baby.


I hope people start booing Jones on opening day if he makes an out in his first AB of the season.

GoGoCrede
02-23-2010, 08:49 PM
I hope people start booing Jones on opening day if he makes an out in his first AB of the season.

That was shameful. I felt terrible for Wise.

Ranger
02-23-2010, 08:51 PM
Excellent, excellent analogy.

Really, it's not all that good of an analogy because for every one of these "absolute guaranteed failures, I just know it and so does everyone else," there's at least one Gavin Floyd, who was also pre-determined to fail by many people here. Sooner or later, you're gonna be right about someone.

doublem23
02-23-2010, 08:52 PM
I hope people start booing Jones on opening day if he makes an out in his first AB of the season.

I'm going to boo if he doesn't make contact on the 1st pitch.

Ranger
02-23-2010, 08:54 PM
I'm going to boo if he doesn't make contact on the 1st pitch.

I'm going to boo if I don't like his walk-up music.

CLR01
02-23-2010, 08:55 PM
I hope people start booing Jones on opening day if he makes an out in his first AB of the season.


Will he continue to suck for the rest of the season, too?

Rockabilly
02-23-2010, 08:58 PM
I think Jones is going to have a better season than Damon

asindc
02-23-2010, 08:58 PM
I'm going to boo if he doesn't make contact on the 1st pitch.

Why stop there? Might as well boo Putz if he throws a ball on his first pitch.

jabrch
02-23-2010, 08:58 PM
I'm shocked to see this come up. I'd have never expected it... Oh wait - you mean this same **** is in 4 other threads? Wow...

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 09:02 PM
Will he continue to suck for the rest of the season, too?Wise actually started to play decent sooner or later... then he got hurt. And he ended the season out very well. Wise wasn't good, but he got a worse rap then he deserved. Making that catch probably saved any bit of confidence anyone had in him because he wasn't a Albert Pujols type player. He was never meant to bat .300 with 40SB. About 20minutes of my opening day felt like **** because some fans felt like being *******s. I hate when we act like Cubs fans.

and that's all I have to say about that.

CLR01
02-23-2010, 09:07 PM
Wise actually started to play decent sooner or later... then he got hurt. And he ended the season out very well. Wise wasn't good, but he got a worse rap then he deserved. Making that catch probably saved any bit of confidence anyone had in him because he wasn't a Albert Pujols type player. He was never meant to bat .300 with 40SB. About 20minutes of my opening day felt like **** because some fans felt like being *******s. I hate when we act like Cubs fans.

and that's all I have to say about that.


You're right, I forgot that he put in the work and managed to pull his average up to .238 during he first week of the season.

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 09:15 PM
Wise actually started to play decent sooner or later... then he got hurt. And he ended the season out very well. Wise wasn't good, but he got a worse rap then he deserved. Making that catch probably saved any bit of confidence anyone had in him because he wasn't a Albert Pujols type player. He was never meant to bat .300 with 40SB. About 20minutes of my opening day felt like **** because some fans felt like being *******s. I hate when we act like Cubs fans.

and that's all I have to say about that.



You mentioned before that you got banned for being too negative. Looks like now you refuse to say anything that isn't positive about the Sox, because some of the posts you make are just wow....

Tragg
02-23-2010, 09:21 PM
This point makes sense, except for the fact that once Owens got healthy again, he never replaced either Alexei or Quentin in the starting lineup.
That's because by that time Alexei and Quentin were hitting the hell out of the ball. Yes, Guillen can see the obvious. But when he was evaluating the talent in the spring of 2008 and in mop up time in 2007, he didn't come close to getting it right.
And let's not forget, for 2 months in 2008, Alexei was sitting behind Uribe.

Mohoney
02-23-2010, 09:25 PM
Tbh, I'd rather have Nix just be our full time DH.... Good power, probably throws out the same average as Thome, much less OBP but WAY better speed. He's a great base stealer, can play some decent defense... He can actually do the platoon thing with TCQ and Konerko so they can all play almost every day. What happened to the Getz hating and Nix loving group? Let's get this guy some attention!...

Your campaigning took a turn for the worse here when you talk about playing some decent defense as a selling point. You want him to be the full time DH, yet you're worried about defense?

I'm starting to see that doublem is right. Some posters would prefer poop to filet mignon, so long as Ozzie Guillen and Kenny Williams say it's so.

Boondock Saint
02-23-2010, 09:28 PM
That's because by that time Alexei and Quentin were hitting the hell out of the ball. Yes, Guillen can see the obvious. But when he was evaluating the talent in the spring of 2008 and in mop up time in 2007, he didn't come close to getting it right.
And let's not forget, for 2 months in 2008, Alexei was sitting behind Uribe.

Alexei was brutal at the plate early on.

Daver
02-23-2010, 09:30 PM
And let's not forget, for 2 months in 2008, Alexei was sitting behind Uribe.

Please alert me when Alexei can come close to playing the defense Uribe did.

Mohoney
02-23-2010, 09:34 PM
Really, it's not all that good of an analogy because for every one of these "absolute guaranteed failures, I just know it and so does everyone else," there's at least one Gavin Floyd, who was also pre-determined to fail by many people here. Sooner or later, you're gonna be right about someone.

Bad analogy. Gavin Floyd was stolen from the Phillies for a guy who was way past his prime. Good GMs make this move all the time. The Floyd-Garcia trade was a no-brainer.

Every GM in the world would trade a pothead on the plus side of 30 for a 27 year old former 1st round draft pick with a wicked curveball. Just because the Phillies were brain dead on this move does not excuse any and all mistakes (and there are many) that this front office has made in the last 3 years.

Mohoney
02-23-2010, 09:38 PM
Please alert me when Alexei can come close to playing the defense Uribe did.

Uribe only played that caliber defense for 2 years, though. It's not like he was a defensive stalwart for a good half decade.

spawn
02-23-2010, 09:49 PM
Bad analogy. Gavin Floyd was stolen from the Phillies for a guy who was way past his prime. Good GMs make this move all the time. The Floyd-Garcia trade was a no-brainer.

When that trade was made, KW was ripped mercilessly for not getting enough for Freddy. So yeah, Gavin was stolen from the Phillies, but at the time very few people here thought it was a steal for the Sox.

SI1020
02-23-2010, 09:55 PM
Uribe only played that caliber defense for 2 years, though. It's not like he was a defensive stalwart for a good half decade. I would have to disagree with that. He's been better some years than others, bur overall a pretty talented and versatile infielder.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
02-23-2010, 09:58 PM
Bad analogy. Gavin Floyd was stolen from the Phillies for a guy who was way past his prime. Good GMs make this move all the time. The Floyd-Garcia trade was a no-brainer.

Every GM in the world would trade a pothead on the plus side of 30 for a 27 year old former 1st round draft pick with a wicked curveball. Just because the Phillies were brain dead on this move does not excuse any and all mistakes (and there are many) that this front office has made in the last 3 years.

When the trade was made, Garcia had just turned 30, and pitched 216 innings in the previous season, compiling a 17-9 record with a 4.54 ERA. Not Cy Young quality by any means, but that was awesome compared to Floyd's line to that point: 24 y/o, with a 108.2 career IP with a mind-blowing 6.99 ERA.

At the time, it looked like a terrible trade...the Phillies were getting an established starter for a "failed" former 1st round head-case draft pick and a decent prospect that we had previously traded (Gio Gonzalez). No one could have foreseen that Garcia would get hurt like he did, and that Floyd (after a rough season) would develop into a serviceable 3rd-4th starter (which is still below his supposed "ceiling").

It ultimately ended up benefiting the Sox, but at the time, I can tell you that the majority of the fanbase was in all sorts of uproars over this trade, myself included. It just goes to show that you never know what can happen in this crazy game.

SI1020
02-23-2010, 10:07 PM
Really, it's not all that good of an analogy because for every one of these "absolute guaranteed failures, I just know it and so does everyone else," there's at least one Gavin Floyd, who was also pre-determined to fail by many people here. Sooner or later, you're gonna be right about someone. I thought Floyd was awful and would never amount to anything. He made some adjustments to his mechanics, arm slots or whatever the in term is these days. Now when he's on, his pitches have wicked movement. He doesn't have to try to get one over down 3-1 in the count. It's been great watching him develop and yes a lot of us missed the boat in this case. I'd still hesitate to compare his example to looking with fear and trepidation at the possiblity of a washed up Jones in the middle of the order or showcasing the stellar defense of Vizquel at DH.

guillen4life13
02-23-2010, 10:35 PM
I thought Floyd was awful and would never amount to anything. He made some adjustments to his mechanics, arm slots or whatever the in term is these days. Now when he's on, his pitches have wicked movement. He doesn't have to try to get one over down 3-1 in the count. It's been great watching him develop and yes a lot of us missed the boat in this case. I'd still hesitate to compare his example to looking with fear and trepidation at the possiblity of a washed up Jones in the middle of the order or showcasing the stellar defense of Vizquel at DH.

All it demonstrates is that hindsight is 20/20.

But Andruw Jones has already pissed away every 2010 at bat, of course.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 10:38 PM
I hope people start booing Jones on opening day if he makes an out in his first AB of the season.

There are traditions, and there are White Sox traditions.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 10:39 PM
Really, it's not all that good of an analogy because for every one of these "absolute guaranteed failures, I just know it and so does everyone else," there's at least one Gavin Floyd, who was also pre-determined to fail by many people here. Sooner or later, you're gonna be right about someone.

Well, yeah, but I think the predetermined failures who fail outnumber those who succeed.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 10:42 PM
When that trade was made, KW was ripped mercilessly for not getting enough for Freddy. So yeah, Gavin was stolen from the Phillies, but at the time very few people here thought it was a steal for the Sox.

That's because folks here tend to overvalue their own - especially the 2005 guys.

CLR01
02-23-2010, 10:42 PM
There are traditions, and there are White Sox traditions.


The tradition of bench players getting starting jobs?

maybe

kittle42
02-23-2010, 10:43 PM
The tradition of bench players getting starting jobs?

maybe

That one doesn't need teal. It's happened at least two years in a row now if things stay the way they are.

CLR01
02-23-2010, 10:45 PM
That one doesn't need teal. It's happened at least two years in a row now if things stay the way they are.


That's why I threw in the maybe. And it's been longer than two years.

TheOldRoman
02-23-2010, 11:11 PM
Guillen has a track record on talent evaluation ....and it isn't pretty.
Hell, he had Alexei and Carlos Quentin on the bench, carrying water for Jerry Owens.Wait, I thought Ozzie was going to send Quentin to AAA to make room for Owens? Get your conjecture straight. Also, remember that Alexei was awful in the spring and the entire board was calling Ozzie crazy for even bringing him to Chicago.

voodoochile
02-23-2010, 11:23 PM
A few points...

1) If you actually read the words in the article, Ozzie never says he is planning on using Vizquel as a leadoff DH. Merely that he hasn't ruled it out. Which is the equivalent of "I never knowingly injected steroids in my left butt cheek" (what about the orally administered ones, or the right butt cheek and if you didn't inject it, who did?). Congrats, to the people who freaked out about that tidbit, IMO you got punk'd...

2) I wouldn't trash the twinkies if they said they were starting Jones as a DH. I'd hope they weren't catching lightning in a bottle. Of course, I'm not damned positive he's an ex-steroid injecting, washed-up, pretender who's punking the Sox just to get his hands on another 500K either. I don't pretend to have a crystal ball on the subject and figure he can put up good enough power numbers to be a 6th place hitter if he gets enough at bats. That's actually the minimum I'm expecting from him, so I guess I'm about to get punk'd too.

3) I don't see anyone saying you can't rip on the Sox, I do see lots of people who seem to delight in doing so. I do think there are two sides to the discussion and obviously that's a good thing. I do think it's perfectly acceptable that when someone comes on a Sox fan site and starts hammering the team relentlessly that they have to listen to the other side of the argument and yeah, those types of arguments by definition are intense and heated. So boohoo, the dark clouds have to defend their POV. Cry me a river...:whiner:

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 11:29 PM
I think Jones can play quite swell against lefties.

Brian26
02-23-2010, 11:34 PM
Uribe only played that caliber defense for 2 years, though. It's not like he was a defensive stalwart for a good half decade.

This is a ridiculous statement.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 11:36 PM
This is a ridiculous statement.Uribe was always a GREAT defender. He could play any infield position great, and had a good arm too.

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 11:58 PM
A few points...

1) If you actually read the words in the article, Ozzie never says he is planning on using Vizquel as a leadoff DH. Merely that he hasn't ruled it out. Which is the equivalent of "I never knowingly injected steroids in my left butt cheek" (what about the orally administered ones, or the right butt cheek and if you didn't inject it, who did?). Congrats, to the people who freaked out about that tidbit, IMO you got punk'd...

2) I wouldn't trash the twinkies if they said they were starting Jones as a DH. I'd hope they weren't catching lightning in a bottle. Of course, I'm not damned positive he's an ex-steroid injecting, washed-up, pretender who's punking the Sox just to get his hands on another 500K either. I don't pretend to have a crystal ball on the subject and figure he can put up good enough power numbers to be a 6th place hitter if he gets enough at bats. That's actually the minimum I'm expecting from him, so I guess I'm about to get punk'd too.

3) I don't see anyone saying you can't rip on the Sox, I do see lots of people who seem to delight in doing so. I do think there are two sides to the discussion and obviously that's a good thing. I do think it's perfectly acceptable that when someone comes on a Sox fan site and starts hammering the team relentlessly that they have to listen to the other side of the argument and yeah, those types of arguments by definition are intense and heated. So boohoo, the dark clouds have to defend their POV. Cry me a river...:whiner:


I completely disagree. I seriously doubt anyone here takes delight in ripping the Sox. Anyone here would LOVE to be proven wrong this season. I know I would.

voodoochile
02-24-2010, 12:00 AM
I completely disagree. I seriously doubt anyone here takes delight in ripping the Sox. Anyone here would LOVE to be proven wrong this season. I know I would.

Yes, they love to call themselves realists and pretend to be objective...

Danielgosox38
02-24-2010, 12:01 AM
Yes, they love to call themselves realists and pretend to be objective...

Who here would love to be right about the DH situation failing, just for the sake of being right? I would rather it would out and be wrong, than for the Sox to have a bad season, and to be right.

voodoochile
02-24-2010, 12:05 AM
Who here would love to be right about the DH situation failing, just for the sake of being right? I would rather it would out and be wrong, than for the Sox to have a bad season, and to be right.

But, IYO there's almost no chance that will happen, right?

Danielgosox38
02-24-2010, 12:06 AM
But, IYO there's almost no chance that will happen, right?


I don't think there is no chance. I'm just not getting my hopes up too much due to their recent track records. Jones seems very focused and dedicated so that is a good sign.

kittle42
02-24-2010, 12:15 AM
I don't think there is no chance. I'm just not getting my hopes up too much due to their recent track records. Jones seems very focused and dedicated so that is a good sign.

Exactly.

voodoochile
02-24-2010, 12:30 AM
I don't think there is no chance. I'm just not getting my hopes up too much due to their recent track records. Jones seems very focused and dedicated so that is a good sign.
Now was that so hard?

guillen4life13
02-24-2010, 12:34 AM
I don't think there is no chance. I'm just not getting my hopes up too much due to their recent track records. Jones seems very focused and dedicated so that is a good sign.

Exactly.

I have yet to see ANYONE on the boards even insinuate that Andruw Jones will return to his form of 5+ years ago.

The sentiment here has been a lot stronger than just "not getting [your] hopes up." That implies a viewpoint that is somewhere near the middle ground. There are some very vocal posters who wholeheartedly believe that Andruw Jones will not produce at all in the face of a bunch of evidence to the contrary.

This whole argument has been a bunch of dark-clouds versus a contingent of people that would rather wait and see.

He's being judged based on one horrific, injury riddled year (2008) and part time work where stats are stated as evidence without mentioning the fact that they occurred over half a season.

I don't expect anything better than a .220/.325/.425 line for BA/OBP/SLG from him, based on his recent production. However, a .750 OPS, while not even close to stellar, is nowhere near being a "pile of ****" as it has been called by at least one poster on the board.

Oh, and by the way, this all implies that Ozzie will use Kotsay against RHP's.

thomas35forever
02-24-2010, 12:36 AM
If it works, great. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I'm not making judgments here. Would you rather have Kotsay night after night?

Gavin
02-24-2010, 01:00 AM
:threadrules:

You're an interesting species. An interesting mix. You're capable of such beautiful dreams, and such horrible nightmares. You feel so lost, so cut off, so alone, only you're not. See, in all our searching, the only thing we've found that makes the emptiness bearable, is each other.

Nellie_Fox
02-24-2010, 01:05 AM
He's right though, there's a certain element around here that absolutely refuse to let anyone rip on the Sox. Guaranteed that if the Sox are 10 games under .500 in June and they're in the bottom 3 of the American League in offensive production there will still be some posters who will challenge any notion that Ozzie and KW have failed.So what? We have the entire gamut of posters, from those who think all will be great to those who always predict failure and death. Nobody is being stopped from having their opinion. Is your opinion sacrosanct? Can it not be "challenged" by anybody?

I'm not even pissed about the moves as much as I am the philosophy Ozzie seems to have adopted. Really, I can admit that if everything goes right for the Sox this year, they've got a solid team. Problem is there is absolutely no fallback for anything. If any of our starters have a problem, the guy behind them was in A-ball last year. If Quentin gets hurt, our backup OF is a guy the Marlins let go. If Jones doesn't somehow magically find the Fountain of Youth, what is the back-up there?And how many teams have solid "back-up plans" like this, especially for pitching? Most teams are thrilled if they have four solid starters, much less five, and forget about having a solid back-up. None, that's how many. I can't believe what a committed pessimist you've become this year.

WhiteSox5187
02-24-2010, 01:21 AM
Uribe was always a GREAT defender. He could play any infield position great, and had a good arm too.

Uribe had all the tools to be a great all around baseball player but he was a dog, and that includes in the field. Much as Konerko is praised for saving Alexei from a lot of errant throws, he did the same for Uribe. Uribe also had a tendency to make many boneheaded decisions that won't show up in a box score (a prime example is on a double play ball in KC in the middle of the 2006 pennant race, Uribe threw home to get one rather than two, the runner was out at home, but the next pitch was a flyball to left to bring in a run then a bases clearing double, boneheaded play) and was slow in getting to second (I can remember a game in 2007 against the Marlins where Garland fielded a groundball turned to throw to second only to see that Uribe had barely moved and was not covering the bag).

I will say this about Juan though, he rises up to the occasion, he was fantastic defensively in the playoffs in '05 and again contributed in a big way off the bench in '08 (both defensively and with his bat). If someone is vying for a job with him, he's great, but if he is assured a job he is lazy. He needs to have a fire under his butt to compete. I think he'd be a great fourth IFer.

JermaineDye05
02-24-2010, 02:04 AM
http://www.csnchicago.com/pages/whitesox

If you watch the first video there, you'll see a couple interviews, one with Peavy and the other with Jones.

If you see the one with Jones, you can just see how much better he looks physically.

Domeshot17
02-24-2010, 02:33 AM
I think the problem is, When Kenny says something you know it isn't true, when Ozzie does, it is. Remember last year when everyone was all "oh Ozzie is just talking about Wise to inspire Anderson and Owens...he wouldn't really consider playing him". (Also, while I don't agree with booing anyone on your own team, if Wise couldn't play well because he got boo'd, it says as much about his weak mental toughness than the fans).

Typical week of spring training. You have the "dark clouds" who are always wrong, except when they are right (see 2007 2009). you have the "sunshine and wild flowers" who just love everything and can ignore 2007 and 2009 because of years like 2008.

Both groups are probably realists. The same guys hammering the team this year were the ones hammering them last year. The same group defending them this year defended them last year. The only difference is for the first time ever Mods have crossed over to different sides :redneck.

But to comment on Voodoo's post, I think the difference between this year and last year is big. Last year was a TRAIN WRECK and we called what we saw. This year, we have the pitching to be very special. If Buehrle shows up and Danks grows, you don't even need Foyd to Rebound. But the offense, what do you expect. There isn't 1 safe player there who can carry a team. All the other contenders have that on offense. Thats what makes it tough. We don't come close to having a player like a Texeria, Youklis, Mauer/Morneau. We are kind of waiting to see who steps up.

look at the lineup from each side:

Pierre: Can hit .300 and steal bases, but if he hits under .280, his OBP might not be much more than .300. Safe player, but not special.

Beckham: Great young player, but are we expecting too much for him to carry a team like Evan Longoria? If he hits a sophomore slump will he press already being the face of the offense

Rios: Is he the high 290 40 double speedy great glove machine from Toronto, or is he the lazy 250 hitter who is complacent with his money

Konerko: Safest player in the lineup, but at 260 26 85-90 can't carry us

Quentin: The most important wild card. Is he capable of hitting 280, 40, mvp type year we saw in 2008? Or is he a walking injury that is a career .250 hitter who hasn't ever had more than 500 ABs in a season

AJ: Another safe player, he doesn't give you a ton, but he gives you enough. Intangibles have always been great minus reports of his pouting and not helping Flowers last September. However, those rumors may have been exaggerated no one really knows.

Teahen: Break out player or mr everything I do is just leauge average?

Ramirez: Finds all the tools and becomes a 5 tool threat, or has another down year with inconsistent D

Kotsay/Jones: Will they drive in 80 runs and the system works, or will they drive in 50 runs, be terrible, and we are scrambling for a new plan mid season

We have 9 positions and 7 are boom or bust. If more boom than bust, we get to play in October. If most bust, we are left watching, and if its a pretty even split, we are see how the twins and tigers do.

The reason a Damon would be so great is 1 hes a high average hitter with high OBP and good speed, not something we have a lot of. 2 he is a constant, you know what you get.

Again, no one is saying this team, if everything goes right, can't do a lot of good. But some of us aren't willing to bet the farm on it. For me, I think the entire season hinges on Quentin. He is the only player in this lineup currently able to carry a team offensively for a season. Beckham may get there, but I really really hate putting that on a 2nd year player. Let him grow into that role.

Danielgosox38
02-24-2010, 07:40 AM
http://www.csnchicago.com/pages/whitesox

If you watch the first video there, you'll see a couple interviews, one with Peavy and the other with Jones.

If you see the one with Jones, you can just see how much better he looks physically.


Wow. He looks SOOOO much better. I am a bit more optimistic after seeing that video. I hope he can turn it around.

jabrch
02-24-2010, 07:47 AM
But some of us aren't willing to bet the farm on it.

There is a huge chasm somewhere between willing to be the farm on it, and completely being sure it will suck. I see nobody here "betting the farm" that this team is a championship winner. What I see is a bunch of people who are 100% convinced that with Jones/Kotsay, this offense will suck, and you see others willing to wait and see how things play out.

Are there people here who you think really are 100% sure of this club?

kittle42
02-24-2010, 09:05 AM
There is a huge chasm somewhere between willing to be the farm on it, and completely being sure it will suck. I see nobody here "betting the farm" that this team is a championship winner. What I see is a bunch of people who are 100% convinced that with Jones/Kotsay, this offense will suck, and you see others willing to wait and see how things play out.

Are there people here who you think really are 100% sure of this club?

Well said, jab. What is it with the tendency to have to toss everyone into one extreme side of an argument or the other?

Marqhead
02-24-2010, 09:17 AM
Well said, jab. What is it with the tendency to have to toss everyone into one extreme side of an argument or the other?

White Sox Baseball: It's Black and White

SI1020
02-24-2010, 09:20 AM
I completely disagree. I seriously doubt anyone here takes delight in ripping the Sox. Anyone here would LOVE to be proven wrong this season. I know I would. Absolutely. No matter who I praise or who I rip, at the end of the day another Sox win is the most important thing to me.

thedudeabides
02-24-2010, 09:23 AM
Well said, jab. What is it with the tendency to have to toss everyone into one extreme side of an argument or the other?

Exactly. I'm not on either side. I know this team has questions, but they aren't nearly in as bad a position as many make them out to be. I think they have made a lot of improvements and this division should be a dog fight.

What gets annoying is I've had to go elsewhere to actually talk about White Sox baseball, because every thread here ends up the same. There are just a handfull of posters peppering every thread with the same posts over and over again.

asindc
02-24-2010, 09:42 AM
I think the problem is, When Kenny says something you know it isn't true, when Ozzie does, it is. Remember last year when everyone was all "oh Ozzie is just talking about Wise to inspire Anderson and Owens...he wouldn't really consider playing him". (Also, while I don't agree with booing anyone on your own team, if Wise couldn't play well because he got boo'd, it says as much about his weak mental toughness than the fans).

Typical week of spring training. You have the "dark clouds" who are always wrong, except when they are right (see 2007 2009). you have the "sunshine and wild flowers" who just love everything and can ignore 2007 and 2009 because of years like 2008.

Both groups are probably realists. The same guys hammering the team this year were the ones hammering them last year. The same group defending them this year defended them last year. The only difference is for the first time ever Mods have crossed over to different sides :redneck.

But to comment on Voodoo's post, I think the difference between this year and last year is big. Last year was a TRAIN WRECK and we called what we saw. This year, we have the pitching to be very special. If Buehrle shows up and Danks grows, you don't even need Foyd to Rebound. But the offense, what do you expect. There isn't 1 safe player there who can carry a team. All the other contenders have that on offense. Thats what makes it tough. We don't come close to having a player like a Texeria, Youklis, Mauer/Morneau. We are kind of waiting to see who steps up.

look at the lineup from each side:

[See comments below]

We have 9 positions and 7 are boom or bust. If more boom than bust, we get to play in October. If most bust, we are left watching, and if its a pretty even split, we are see how the twins and tigers do.

The reason a Damon would be so great is 1 hes a high average hitter with high OBP and good speed, not something we have a lot of. 2 he is a constant, you know what you get.

Again, no one is saying this team, if everything goes right, can't do a lot of good. But some of us aren't willing to bet the farm on it. For me, I think the entire season hinges on Quentin. He is the only player in this lineup currently able to carry a team offensively for a season. Beckham may get there, but I really really hate putting that on a 2nd year player. Let him grow into that role.

Really good breakdown. Jabrch's response I think says it well, but I do want to nitpik on a few things if you don't mind:

Pierre: Can hit .300 and steal bases, but if he hits under .280, his OBP might not be much more than .300. Safe player, but not special.

I agree.



Beckham: Great young player, but are we expecting too much for him to carry a team like Evan Longoria? If he hits a sophomore slump will he press already being the face of the offense.

I don't think Beckham will have to carry the team if everyone else performs to at least 90% of their capabilities. I'm less worried about him offensively than anyone except Pauly and AJ.



Rios: Is he the high 290 40 double speedy great glove machine from Toronto, or is he the lazy 250 hitter who is complacent with his money?

I agree. Rios, along with TCQ, is the biggest x-factor in our lineup. He has to give us at the bare minimum 85% of his best.



Konerko: Safest player in the lineup, but at 260 26 85-90 can't carry us.

I think Pauly will perform better than this. A telling comment by him at the end of last season was that he knew he had to re-commit himself to offseason conditioning. It did not get much attention here at WSI at the time, but it stuck with me. I'm thinking Pauly will give us 275-31-105, which any contending team should feel good about getting from a #5 hitter.



Quentin: The most important wild card. Is he capable of hitting 280, 40, mvp type year we saw in 2008? Or is he a walking injury that is a career .250 hitter who hasn't ever had more than 500 ABs in a season.

See Rios. The second biggest x-factor this season. If he comes close to 2008 numbers with everyone else giving what they can, I think 95 wins is realistic.



AJ: Another safe player, he doesn't give you a ton, but he gives you enough. Intangibles have always been great minus reports of his pouting and not helping Flowers last September. However, those rumors may have been exaggerated no one really knows.

Teahen: Break out player or mr everything I do is just leauge average?

Agreed on both.



Ramirez: Finds all the tools and becomes a 5 tool threat, or has another down year with inconsistent D.

I think TCM will be fine. He was adjusting to SS and the league was adjusting to him. I think he will give us at least 95% of what he did in 2008.



Kotsay/Jones: Will they drive in 80 runs and the system works, or will they drive in 50 runs, be terrible, and we are scrambling for a new plan mid season.

Of course, the topic du jour. I will say that if Rios and TCQ don't perform as expected, none of the players that were available on the open market this offseason would have/will matter much. So it is with these guys.



I think we all realize that we don't have near-lock thumpers like Miguel Cabrera, Mauer, or Morneau in our lineup, but I do think we have the best overall balanced team in the division. Matsui or Damon would have improved that situation, no doubt here, which is why KW tried to obtain each of them.

SI1020
02-24-2010, 09:46 AM
I think the problem is, When Kenny says something you know it isn't true, when Ozzie does, it is. Remember last year when everyone was all "oh Ozzie is just talking about Wise to inspire Anderson and Owens...he wouldn't really consider playing him". (Also, while I don't agree with booing anyone on your own team, if Wise couldn't play well because he got boo'd, it says as much about his weak mental toughness than the fans).

Typical week of spring training. You have the "dark clouds" who are always wrong, except when they are right (see 2007 2009). you have the "sunshine and wild flowers" who just love everything and can ignore 2007 and 2009 because of years like 2008.

Both groups are probably realists. The same guys hammering the team this year were the ones hammering them last year. The same group defending them this year defended them last year. The only difference is for the first time ever Mods have crossed over to different sides :redneck.

But to comment on Voodoo's post, I think the difference between this year and last year is big. Last year was a TRAIN WRECK and we called what we saw. This year, we have the pitching to be very special. If Buehrle shows up and Danks grows, you don't even need Foyd to Rebound. But the offense, what do you expect. There isn't 1 safe player there who can carry a team. All the other contenders have that on offense. Thats what makes it tough. We don't come close to having a player like a Texeria, Youklis, Mauer/Morneau. We are kind of waiting to see who steps up.

look at the lineup from each side:

Pierre: Can hit .300 and steal bases, but if he hits under .280, his OBP might not be much more than .300. Safe player, but not special.

Beckham: Great young player, but are we expecting too much for him to carry a team like Evan Longoria? If he hits a sophomore slump will he press already being the face of the offense

Rios: Is he the high 290 40 double speedy great glove machine from Toronto, or is he the lazy 250 hitter who is complacent with his money

Konerko: Safest player in the lineup, but at 260 26 85-90 can't carry us

Quentin: The most important wild card. Is he capable of hitting 280, 40, mvp type year we saw in 2008? Or is he a walking injury that is a career .250 hitter who hasn't ever had more than 500 ABs in a season

AJ: Another safe player, he doesn't give you a ton, but he gives you enough. Intangibles have always been great minus reports of his pouting and not helping Flowers last September. However, those rumors may have been exaggerated no one really knows.

Teahen: Break out player or mr everything I do is just leauge average?

Ramirez: Finds all the tools and becomes a 5 tool threat, or has another down year with inconsistent D

Kotsay/Jones: Will they drive in 80 runs and the system works, or will they drive in 50 runs, be terrible, and we are scrambling for a new plan mid season

We have 9 positions and 7 are boom or bust. If more boom than bust, we get to play in October. If most bust, we are left watching, and if its a pretty even split, we are see how the twins and tigers do.

The reason a Damon would be so great is 1 hes a high average hitter with high OBP and good speed, not something we have a lot of. 2 he is a constant, you know what you get.

Again, no one is saying this team, if everything goes right, can't do a lot of good. But some of us aren't willing to bet the farm on it. For me, I think the entire season hinges on Quentin. He is the only player in this lineup currently able to carry a team offensively for a season. Beckham may get there, but I really really hate putting that on a 2nd year player. Let him grow into that role. Excellent assessment of the team heading into Spring Training.

DonnieDarko
02-24-2010, 09:50 AM
Yeah, great assessment of the team. You took the words pretty much right out of my mouth, save for one thing: I think that Quentin is the bigger x-factor than Rios this time around. If Rios sucks, yeah, we're in trouble, but nowhere near as much trouble if Quentin doesn't perform.

guillen4life13
02-24-2010, 09:50 AM
Really good breakdown. Jabrch's response I think says it well, but I do want to nitpik on a few things if you don't mind:

Pierre: Can hit .300 and steal bases, but if he hits under .280, his OBP might not be much more than .300. Safe player, but not special.

I agree.


Beckham: Great young player, but are we expecting too much for him to carry a team like Evan Longoria? If he hits a sophomore slump will he press already being the face of the offense.

I don't think Beckham will have to carry the team if everyone else performs to at leat 90% of their capabilities. I'm less worried about him offensively than anyone except Pauly and AJ.


Rios: Is he the high 290 40 double speedy great glove machine from Toronto, or is he the lazy 250 hitter who is complacent with his money?

I agree. Rios, along with TCQ, is the biggest x-factor in our lineup. He has to give us at the bare minimum 85% of his best.


Konerko: Safest player in the lineup, but at 260 26 85-90 can't carry us.

I think Pauly will perform better than this. A telling comment by him at the end of last season was that he knew he had to re-commit himself to offseason conditioning. It did not get much attention here at WSI at the time, but it stuck with me. I'm thinking Pauly will give us 275-31-105, which any contending team should feel good about getting from a #5 hitter.


Quentin: The most important wild card. Is he capable of hitting 280, 40, mvp type year we saw in 2008? Or is he a walking injury that is a career .250 hitter who hasn't ever had more than 500 ABs in a season.

See Rios. The second biggest x-factor this season. If he comes close to 2008 numbers with everyone else giving what they can, I think 95 wins is realistic.


AJ: Another safe player, he doesn't give you a ton, but he gives you enough. Intangibles have always been great minus reports of his pouting and not helping Flowers last September. However, those rumors may have been exaggerated no one really knows.

Teahen: Break out player or mr everything I do is just leauge average?

Agreed on both.


Ramirez: Finds all the tools and becomes a 5 tool threat, or has another down year with inconsistent D.

I think TCM will be fine. He was adjusting to SS and the league was adjusting to him. I think he will give us at least 95% of what he did in 2008.


Kotsay/Jones: Will they drive in 80 runs and the system works, or will they drive in 50 runs, be terrible, and we are scrambling for a new plan mid season.

Of course, the topic du jour. I will say that if Rios and TCQ don't perform as expected, none of the players that were available on the open market this offseason would/will matter much. So it is with these guys.


I think we all realize that we don't have near-lock thumpers like Miguel Cabrera, Mauer, or Morneau in our lineup, but I do think we have the best overall balanced team in the division. Matsui or Damon would have improved that situation, no doubt here, which is why KW tried to obtain each of them.

Agreed on just about all counts.

The thing is, if the pitching stays reasonably healthy and the offense falters anything like last year, the team should still be in the hunt. Remember, last year things fell apart after the perfect game. The Sox were right there competing. Considering that this year, the offense is upgraded with BA/Wise replaced by Rios and Getz replaced by Teahen, even if the Sox offense plays like last year, the team should be in the hunt.

But, if the offense plays to even its career norms (and I'm not including Jones into that whole category, since I don't have any expectation thereof), this team should win the division with relative ease.

If the offense performs to potential, this team should win the pennant and possibly the World Series.

spawn
02-24-2010, 09:59 AM
The only difference is for the first time ever Mods have crossed over to different sides :redneck.

There's only one Mod who has "crossed over" to being a "Dark Cloud" this season. I think the rest of us are taking a wait and see approach.

Exactly. I'm not on either side. I know this team has questions, but they aren't nearly in as bad a position as many make them out to be. I think they have made a lot of improvements and this division should be a dog fight.
This is where I am as well. This team is markedly improved over last season. I am definitely concerned with Ozzie's DH by committee plan (not with the plan itself, but with the players that are on hand to implement it), but I'm going to give Ozzie and KW the benefit of the doubt. If it fails early, I expect them to correct it. I'm not voerly optimisitc, but i'm not giving up on the season before a pitch is thrown either.

What gets annoying is I've had to go elsewhere to actually talk about White Sox baseball, because every thread here ends up the same. There are just a handfull of posters peppering every thread with the same posts over and over again.
It's why I've sort of stopped posting in those threads. I don't feel like getting into the same argument over and over and over again.

Thatguyoverthere
02-24-2010, 10:02 AM
But to comment on Voodoo's post, I think the difference between this year and last year is big. Last year was a TRAIN WRECK and we called what we saw. This year, we have the pitching to be very special. If Buehrle shows up and Danks grows, you don't even need Foyd to Rebound. But the offense, what do you expect. There isn't 1 safe player there who can carry a team. All the other contenders have that on offense. Thats what makes it tough. We don't come close to having a player like a Texeria, Youklis, Mauer/Morneau. We are kind of waiting to see who steps up.:?: Rebound from what, a pretty good year? From about late May onwards, Floyd was the best starter on the staff, he just screwed over by the bullpen more than anyone else. I don't think people realize just how good he was last season. There's no "rebound" necessary. In fact, I'd go as far to say he was better in '09 than in '08. He showed last year that 2008 was no fluke.

asindc
02-24-2010, 10:05 AM
:?: Rebound from what, a pretty good year? From about late May onwards, Floyd was the best starter on the staff, he just screwed over by the bullpen more than anyone else. I don't think people realize just how good he was last season. There's no "rebound" necessary. In fact, I'd go as far to say he was better in '09 than in '08. He showed last year that 2008 was no fluke.

I agree. I think there is a good chance that Floyd could out-pitch Danks or Buehrle this year.

beasly213
02-24-2010, 10:09 AM
http://www.csnchicago.com/pages/whitesox

If you watch the first video there, you'll see a couple interviews, one with Peavy and the other with Jones.

If you see the one with Jones, you can just see how much better he looks physically.


Wow. I'm shocked how good Jones looks!

asindc
02-24-2010, 10:25 AM
Wow. I'm shocked how good Jones looks!

Yes he does. I am pleased to hear that he really wants to play the field and thinks he can do it full-time. This might be a case, as Ozzie said, of a guy who got by mostly on natural ability and now has to work very hard for the first time in his career. Hopefully we will see the results of that hard work.

jabrch
02-24-2010, 10:44 AM
Yes he does. I am pleased to hear that he really wants to play the field and thinks he can do it full-time. This might be a case, as Ozzie said, of a guy who got by mostly on natural ability and now has to work very hard for the first time in his career. Hopefully we will see the results of that hard work.


Nonsense. He sucks. It's black and white - and there is no room for other thoughts. You are naive for thinking otherwise.

Corlose 15
02-24-2010, 11:20 AM
Yes he does. I am pleased to hear that he really wants to play the field and thinks he can do it full-time. This might be a case, as Ozzie said, of a guy who got by mostly on natural ability and now has to work very hard for the first time in his career. Hopefully we will see the results of that hard work.

I'm really starting to think what happened is that things came so easily to him that he got complacent and fat. Then the injuries piled on top of his decreased conditioning and he had one really bad year and then last year, where he started hot and then broke down because of his conditioning.

His is a really compelling story, even outside of the DH issue with the Sox, just because you have a player of his ability who produced at a high level for so long trying to get back to his previous level of performance. It and maybe Santos trying to make the bullpen are by far the two most interesting stories of the spring.

LoveYourSuit
02-24-2010, 11:39 AM
Guillen has a track record on talent evaluation ....and it isn't pretty.
Hell, he had Alexei and Carlos Quentin on the bench, carrying water for Jerry Owens.


LOL !

No ****. People tend to forget those things. Quentin almost did not make the team out of spring training in 2008. He made it as a 4th OF.

Jerry Owens doesn't get hurt, we never would have known what Quentin could be.


A Jones is Ozzie's "friend." I can't stand it when managers call their players "friend."

asindc
02-24-2010, 11:42 AM
LOL !

No ****. People tend to forget those things. Quentin almost did not make the team out of spring training in 2008. He made it as a 4th OF.

Jerry Owens doesn't get hurt, we never would have known what Quentin could be.


A Jones is Ozzie's "friend." I can't stand it when managers call their players "friend."

Wasn't Quentin injured during that ST?

LoveYourSuit
02-24-2010, 11:43 AM
I hope people start booing Jones on opening day if he makes an out in his first AB of the season.


I don't think fans booed Wise in a way to show hate towards him. People were actually booing at management for making the stupid decision of giving him the job.

You have to agree, the 39,000 booing had better judgment of talent for Wise than what management did.

LoveYourSuit
02-24-2010, 11:44 AM
Wasn't Quentin injured during that ST?

Yes he was, and so was Jerry Owens. So both being injured (equal) they were still considering Owens over Quentin.

guillen4life13
02-24-2010, 11:46 AM
Wasn't Quentin injured during that ST?

A bit, and he also had a bad year in '07, in part due to injury so he was coming in as an unproven commodity. But don't let these types of fickle things get in the way of a good Ozzie bashing.

I don't exactly remember anyone clamoring for Quentin to be a starter at the beginning of the 2008 season. Again, hindsight is always 20/20.

There are things Ozzie deserves getting bashed for. They are named Erstad, Mackowiak, and Owens.

spawn
02-24-2010, 11:46 AM
I don't think fans booed Wise in a way to show hate towards him. People were actually booing at management for making the stupid decision of giving him the job.

You have to agree, the 39,000 booing had better judgment of talent for Wise than what management did.
I'm sure management was really stung by the booing. That's why booing a player to send a message to management makes no sense.

LoveYourSuit
02-24-2010, 11:50 AM
I'm sure management was really stung by the booing. That's why booing a player to send a message to management makes no sense.


I disagree on that. Look no further than Damaso Marte. The guy was torched by the fans, and Ozzie refused to send him out there for home games.

guillen4life13
02-24-2010, 11:51 AM
What gets annoying is I've had to go elsewhere to actually talk about White Sox baseball, because every thread here ends up the same. There are just a handfull of posters peppering every thread with the same posts over and over again.

I know I'm one of those posters, but I guess I get a little frustrated when people make statements that are blatant misrepresentations of the current situation, and I'm compelled to regurgitate any statistical evidence to the contrary.

These posts get ignored, and misrepresentations continue.

Anyone who posts even semi-regularly in WSI argument/debate threads should get an honorary doctoral degree in Rhetoric.

spawn
02-24-2010, 11:54 AM
I disagree on that. Look no further than Damaso Marte. The guy was torched by the fans, and Ozzie refused to send him out there for home games.
How can you disagree when he continued to send out Wise last season? Ozzie isn't affected by the fans. he didn't send Marte out because he kept blowing games.

asindc
02-24-2010, 12:02 PM
I disagree on that. Look no further than Damaso Marte. The guy was torched by the fans, and Ozzie refused to send him out there for home games.

How about you provide a list of Sox players who you think should be booed on Opening Day as a message to management. I want to brace myself if fellow Sox fans decide to do that again.:(:

Harry Chappas
02-24-2010, 12:05 PM
This is a ridiculous statement.

Almost as ridiculous as him claiming that dealing Garcia for Floyd was a no brainer and that every GM in the league would have done the same thing. Except for the fact that no one did and Floyd was viewed by most as a bust. Somehow, KW gets NO credit for grabbing Floyd, but all of the blame when someone doesn't pan out.

LoveYourSuit
02-24-2010, 12:07 PM
How can you disagree when he continued to send out Wise last season? Ozzie isn't affected by the fans. he didn't send Marte out because he kept blowing games.


OK, so then you are agreeing that Ozzie is stubborn and stupid?

He kept on trotting a guy who absolutely sucks out to that field. What does that say for his "judgment of talent?"

LoveYourSuit
02-24-2010, 12:11 PM
How about you provide a list of Sox players who you think should be booed on Opening Day as a message to management. I want to brace myself if fellow Sox fans decide to do that again.:(:


I don't boo. I find it stupid to boo humans playing a game. What I do is stop showing up.


But I can predict that as soon as the Sox start losing games 2-1, 1-0, 3-2, tension and displeasure will be felt around the Cell with the fans. Greg Walker will be driving home with 4 flat tires and so on.

tick53
02-24-2010, 12:32 PM
Let's watch it fail a couple times before we damn it. Maybe Jones really has turned over a new leaf.

I believe that Jones will surprise a lot of people and be the steal of the year. I'd like to see him in the outfield too. He's one of the best.

"We don't ne no stinkin' Johnny Damon."

Mod comment: Please, when you screw up the "quote" function, either fix it or delete the post and start over. I fixed it for you, but I had to go find the original post to tell what was quote and what was your comment.

dickallen15
02-24-2010, 12:37 PM
Didn't Josh Fields report in great shape last year and had his knee cleaned up so he was destined to be a star? Funny how Josh isn't even mentioned in the deal that sent him away.

Jones will say all the right things, and he did get himself in better shape, but the odds are unless he does something that isn't considered within the rules, he won't be much help.

Nellie_Fox
02-24-2010, 12:38 PM
...but the odds are unless he does something that isn't considered within the rules, he won't be much help.And you know this...how?

Carolina Kenny
02-24-2010, 12:46 PM
I believe that Jones will surprise a lot of people and be the steal of the year. I'd like to see him in the outfield too. He's one of the best.

"We don't ne no stinkin' Johnny Damon."

Mod comment: Please, when you screw up the "quote" function, either fix it or delete the post and start over. I fixed it for you, but I had to go find the original post to tell what was quote and what was your comment.

I also think Jones is going to surprise a lot of doubters. Also, Happy Felsch was a better ballplayer than Buck Weaver. Although, nobody ever doubted Felsch's involvement in the Black Sox Scandel.

canOcorn
02-24-2010, 12:47 PM
I'm sure management was really stung by the booing. That's why booing a player to send a message to management makes no sense.

It had Ozzie lathered up. :shrug:

dickallen15
02-24-2010, 12:49 PM
And you know this...how?

As I said, odds are...How do you know he will be any good? Just name one player in MLB history that isn't under suspicion of not playing by the rules, who came back strong after 3 pretty bad seasons at Jones listed age? Its against the odds. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt about his age BTW. There are more than a few who believe he's actually a few years older.

Corlose 15
02-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Are people really incapable of seeing the difference between Josh Fields, Dewayne Wise and Andruw Jones?

dickallen15
02-24-2010, 12:55 PM
Are people really incapable of seeing the difference between Josh Fields, Dewayne Wise and Andruw Jones?
Are you incapable of seeing Andruw Jones isn't the same player he was 5 or 6 years ago?

There's a reason Scott Boras had him sign a contract almost immediately that only guaranteed him 71% of what Brian Anderson is guaranteed for 2010.

In his last 1062 AB, he has a .207 batting average. Could you imagine if a White Sox had done that in 300 AB? Its nice he got himself in shape. Too bad for the Dodgers they paid him all that money and he apparently couldn't have cared less and let himself go, but he slimmed down his last season in Atlanta playing for a contract and his numbers declined drastically.

Chez
02-24-2010, 01:26 PM
If Jones is in as great a shape as he claims and as advertised, why would he DH? When healthy, he was a fantastic outfielder. If healthy and in shape, shouldn't he be in the outfield (with either Quentin or Pierre DH'ing) against LHP?

Corlose 15
02-24-2010, 01:26 PM
Are you incapable of seeing Andruw Jones isn't the same player he was 5 or 6 years ago?

There's a reason Scott Boras had him sign a contract almost immediately that only guaranteed him 71% of what Brian Anderson is guaranteed for 2010.

In his last 1062 AB, he has a .207 batting average. Could you imagine if a White Sox had done that in 300 AB? Its nice he got himself in shape. Too bad for the Dodgers they paid him all that money and he apparently couldn't have cared less and let himself go, but he slimmed down his last season in Atlanta playing for a contract and his numbers declined drastically.

You're the one who compared Jones getting in shape to Fields having knee surgery and losing weight. Their track records aren't even comparable. One one hand you have a former first round pick whose greatest accomplishment was hitting 23 homers once. The other one is a 10 time gold glove winner who reached the majors when he was 19 and has driven in 90+ runs 9 times and 84 runs another time and has been bad the last couple seasons not in small part due to his being injured, fat, and out of shape.

I've never said that Jones is the same player he was 5 years ago, and I'm not guaranteeing any future success, but when he solves something that has played a role in his career going off a cliff it means a little bit more than Josh Fields getting his knee scoped.

Carolina Kenny
02-24-2010, 01:30 PM
Dose anyone know why he spells his Andruw with a U and not a E.

Just wondering because it looks really weird and messed up.

dickallen15
02-24-2010, 01:30 PM
You're the one who compared Jones getting in shape to Fields having knee surgery and losing weight. Their track records aren't even comparable. One one hand you have a former first round pick whose greatest accomplishment was hitting 23 homers once. The other one is a 10 time gold glove winner who reached the majors when he was 19 and has driven in 90+ runs 9 times and 84 runs another time and has been bad the last couple seasons not in small part due to his being injured, fat, and out of shape.

I've never said that Jones is the same player he was 5 years ago, and I'm not guaranteeing any future success, but when he solves something that has played a role in his career going off a cliff it means a little bit more than Josh Fields getting his knee scoped.

I have no idea what the relavance of Jones' performance as a 19 year old has to do with how he'll perform in 2010 and that 2007,2008,2009 really mean nothing, but if that's how you want to look at it fine. Its the beginning of spring training. All the stories will be of the feel good variety. Go back a year ago and read what being were saying about Marquez, Lillibridge, Betemit, even Wise. Andruw Jones has been awful for 3 years. He would be surprising more than a few if he put up half the numbers some people around here seem pretty sure he's capable of putting up. He's played a long time. A lot of that time he didn't take care of himself. He has a lot of wear and tear on his body. Time probably caught up to him faster than it does to others, or he may be a few years older than his stated age, in which case this slide makes perfect sense. Eating meals with Jared at Subway isn't necessarily going to make him an All Star again.

Carolina Kenny
02-24-2010, 01:35 PM
Its the beginning of spring training. All the stories will be of the feel good variety. Go back a year ago and read what being were saying about Marquez, Lillibridge, Betemit, even Wise. Andruw Jones has been awful for 3 years. He would be surprising more than a few if he put up half the numbers some people around here seem pretty sure he's capable of putting up. He's played a long time. A lot of that time he didn't take care of himself. He has a lot of wear and tear on his body. Time probably caught up to him faster than it does to others, or he may be a few years older than his stated age, in which case this slide makes perfect sense. Eating meals with Jared at Subway isn't necessarily going to make him an All Star again.

You can say what you want about a overpaid ballplayer who made millions and then got fat and lazy. But when you trash Jared you are stepping out of bounds.

voodoochile
02-24-2010, 01:39 PM
I have no idea what the relavance of Jones' performance as a 19 year old has to do with how he'll perform in 2010 and that 2007,2008,2009 really mean nothing, but if that's how you want to look at it fine. Its the beginning of spring training. All the stories will be of the feel good variety. Go back a year ago and read what being were saying about Marquez, Lillibridge, Betemit, even Wise. Andruw Jones has been awful for 3 years. He would be surprising more than a few if he put up half the numbers some people around here seem pretty sure he's capable of putting up. He's played a long time. A lot of that time he didn't take care of himself. He has a lot of wear and tear on his body. Time probably caught up to him faster than it does to others, or he may be a few years older than his stated age, in which case this slide makes perfect sense. Eating meals with Jared at Subway isn't necessarily going to make him an All Star again.

I would argue that the numbers he put up in 2 of those three "awful" years would be just fine for the Sox DH situation this year

Corlose 15
02-24-2010, 01:43 PM
Its the beginning of spring training. All the stories will be of the feel good variety. Go back a year ago and read what being were saying about Marquez, Lillibridge, Betemit, even Wise. Andruw Jones has been awful for 3 years. He would be surprising more than a few if he put up half the numbers some people around here seem pretty sure he's capable of putting up. He's played a long time. A lot of that time he didn't take care of himself. He has a lot of wear and tear on his body. Time probably caught up to him faster than it does to others, or he may be a few years older than his stated age, in which case this slide makes perfect sense.

In his 2007 season Jones still hit 24 HR and drove in 94. You're right his average was bad and his OBP and Slugging both went down. It was a harbinger of things to come for his awful season in LA. His slide also makes sense if he became complacent and thus fat, out of shape, and injury prone. Also, Marquez, Lillibridge, Betemit, and Wise can't hold Jones' jock collectively in terms of ability or past production. Those two points mean that Jones coming into camp in shape is more relevant. Of course it is an optimistic spring training piece and it doesn't mean Jones is going to do anything this year. It just carries more weight when you're talking about a player who has the natural ability and track record of Andruw Jones.

Let me be clear, I'm not predicting anything out of Andruw Jones, just saying that feeling optimistic about players being in shape or doing well in ST who have never done a thing in the big leagues isn't the same as a formerly great player who has been out of shape for quite a while coming into camp in great physical condition with a chip on his shoulder.

Corlose 15
02-24-2010, 01:45 PM
I would argue that the numbers he put up in 2 of those three "awful" years would be just fine for the Sox DH situation this year

If you look at his season last year, he actually started out pretty well and broke down as the season went on. Garfien said in that interview the other day that he battled hamstring injuries last year. Which makes the fact that he is in shape, thus reducing his propensity for wear and tear injuries, an encouraging development.

spawn
02-24-2010, 01:58 PM
OK, so then you are agreeing that Ozzie is stubborn and stupid?

He kept on trotting a guy who absolutely sucks out to that field. What does that say for his "judgment of talent?"
:scratch: *** are you talking about? You brought up Damaso Marte as an example of Ozzie letting players get booed affect how he manages. I pointed out you were wrong and used Wise as an example, as Wise was booed on Opening Day and Ozzie continued to start him. Ozzie being "stubborn and stupid" has absolutely nothing to do with me saying booing a player to send a message to management making no sense.

doublem23
02-24-2010, 02:09 PM
Almost as ridiculous as him claiming that dealing Garcia for Floyd was a no brainer and that every GM in the league would have done the same thing. Except for the fact that no one did and Floyd was viewed by most as a bust. Somehow, KW gets NO credit for grabbing Floyd, but all of the blame when someone doesn't pan out.

What? Plenty of people give KW credit for grabbing Floyd and Danks, both of which were monster acquisitions that even make it possible for us to talk like we have a chance at the play-offs.

Tragg
02-24-2010, 02:10 PM
Please alert me when Alexei can come close to playing the defense Uribe did.
And that was because his D wasn't up to Uribe's?.......please alert me when Guillen starts making those decisions based on defense.

Nobody knows if Jones has reinveted himself and will be a productive hitter this year. It's unlikely, but possible. Hope he is.

Nellie_Fox
02-24-2010, 02:16 PM
Dose anyone know why he spells his Andruw with a U and not a E.Because that's the way his parents chose to spell it when they named him???

Carolina Kenny
02-24-2010, 02:20 PM
Because that's the way his parents chose to spell it when they named him???

Just wondering. Imagine Nelsun Fox.

spawn
02-24-2010, 02:34 PM
Just wondering. Imagine Nelsun Fox.
OK. :shrug:

SephClone89
02-24-2010, 02:40 PM
Just wondering. Imagine Nelsun Fox.

He's from the Netherlands Antilles (no relation to Wedge). Do you expect them to spell everything identical to us?

Thome_Fan
02-24-2010, 02:58 PM
He's from the Netherlands Antilles (no relation to Wedge). Do you expect them to spell everything identical to us?

I love this. And I'll be so happy if the other Star Wars nerds out there get it too. :tongue:

spawn
02-24-2010, 03:04 PM
I love this. And I'll be so happy if the other Star Wars nerds out there get it too. :tongue:
Yeah, I got it as well.

Wedge:That's impossible! Even for a computer.

Luke: It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.

doublem23
02-24-2010, 03:09 PM
He's from the Netherlands Antilles (no relation to Wedge). Do you expect them to spell everything identical to us?

Sheesh, calm down, the guy just asked a question. You realize that Andruw is a unique way to spell that name no matter what language you are speaking. It's not like he asked why Jose Contreras didn't get named Joe.

SephClone89
02-24-2010, 03:19 PM
Sheesh, calm down, the guy just asked a question. You realize that Andruw is a unique way to spell that name no matter what language you are speaking. It's not like he asked why Jose Contreras didn't get named Joe.

I guess it was the way he felt the need to keep talking about it ("imagine Nelsun Fox") just rubbed me the wrong way.

asindc
02-24-2010, 03:37 PM
What? Plenty of people give KW credit for grabbing Floyd and Danks, both of which were monster acquisitions that even make it possible for us to talk like we have a chance at the play-offs.

The point is that at the time of each acquisition, many people criticized KW for each move. Of course now with 20/20, virtually no one does.

Domeshot17
02-24-2010, 03:48 PM
The point is that at the time of each acquisition, many people criticized KW for each move. Of course now with 20/20, virtually no one does.

True but whats that fans do. For every Gavin Floyd theres a Swisher, for every Erstad, theres a Dye. For every Colon theres a Thornton.

KW runs about 40-50% on the lightning in a bottle type players, which is about as good as you can ask for. What people seem to forget was Floyd at the time was a thrown in player. Gio was the centerpiece of that deal.

I will say, it was mentioned earlier, I really really hope Im wrong on Andruw. I hope he hits 280 with 50 bombs 190 rbis and wins MVP.

Harry Chappas
02-24-2010, 03:50 PM
What? Plenty of people give KW credit for grabbing Floyd and Danks, both of which were monster acquisitions that even make it possible for us to talk like we have a chance at the play-offs.

Sorry Doublem, this was directed to Mohoney who wrote: "Bad analogy. Gavin Floyd was stolen from the Phillies for a guy who was way past his prime. Good GMs make this move all the time. The Floyd-Garcia trade was a no-brainer.
Every GM in the world would trade a pothead on the plus side of 30 for a 27 year old former 1st round draft pick with a wicked curveball. Just because the Phillies were brain dead on this move does not excuse any and all mistakes (and there are many) that this front office has made in the last 3 years."

He was completely dismissive of the Floyd/Garcia deal as evidenced above. I'd like to know what the "many" mistakes this organization has made over the last 3 years. I'll give you Swisher and maybe Allen for Pena, but to me, a mistake would be egregiously over-paying someone that was a complete bust or trading away a star for a bag of balls. It's not like failed experiments like Mackowiak cost us much. They just didn't work out.

SI1020
02-24-2010, 03:51 PM
The point is that at the time of each acquisition, many people criticized KW for each move. Of course now with 20/20, virtually no one does. I recall a certain Tribune writer criticizing the trade of Brandon McCarthy, referring to him as a "proven workhorse." I don't recall a major fan backlash. Gavin Floyd now that's another story. I already admitted I thought he had bust written all over him.

DaveFeelsRight
02-24-2010, 05:21 PM
True but whats that fans do. For every Gavin Floyd theres a Swisher, for every Erstad, theres a Dye. For every Colon theres a Thornton.

KW runs about 40-50% on the lightning in a bottle type players, which is about as good as you can ask for. What people seem to forget was Floyd at the time was a thrown in player. Gio was the centerpiece of that deal.

I will say, it was mentioned earlier, I really really hope Im wrong on Andruw. I hope he hits 280 with 50 bombs 190 rbis and wins MVP.has anyone ever gotten 190 ribbies? haha

KenBerryGrab
02-24-2010, 05:22 PM
has anyone ever gotten 190 ribbies? haha

Hack Wilson, 191.

DickAllen72
02-24-2010, 06:17 PM
If healthy and in shape, shouldn't he be in the outfield (with either Quentin or Pierre DH'ing) against LHP?
Absolutely.

TheVulture
02-24-2010, 06:37 PM
You realize that Andruw is a unique way to spell that name no matter what language you are speaking. It's not like he asked why Jose Contreras didn't get named Joe.

Andruw is the dutch varient of Andrew, Jones is of the Dutch Antilles, so it is kind of like asking why Jose wasn't named Joe.