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Lip Man 1
02-23-2010, 12:15 PM
Long article, here's a highlight:


Mod Edit: Copywritten material, even portions of it, are not allowed.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/2064296,CST-SPT-deluca23.article


Lip

#1swisher
02-23-2010, 12:27 PM
Ozzie also will accept the blame if the Sox don't make it to the postseason.
Exactly the person I will hold accountable.

:gosox:

Tragg
02-23-2010, 12:30 PM
That's all fine....except that Ozzie's favorite candidate for DH have shown little ability to hit his 20 homers. Kotsay's never done it, Vizquel's never done it, and JOnes hasn't done it since the Braves let him go. I believe he actually metioned Nix once - my lord!
The new 3B hasn't done it either, but fits in well with Ozzie's love of modest-power, solid batting average but low obp ballplayers.
DH is a 100% offensive position that guillen is trying to turn on its head for some reason.

jabrch
02-23-2010, 12:31 PM
Ozzie also will accept the blame if the Sox don't make it to the postseason.
Exactly the person I will hold accountable.

:gosox:


You will hold Ozzie more accountable than the players? I still don't get that.

Each player needs to contribute. It isn't the manager's fault if the player fails to live up to reasonable expectations.

HomeFish
02-23-2010, 12:32 PM
Finally, after all this time, Ozzie has decided to try and bring smallball to the Sox.

#1swisher
02-23-2010, 12:42 PM
You will hold Ozzie more accountable than the players? I still don't get that.

Each player needs to contribute. It isn't the manager's fault if the player fails to live up to reasonable expectations.

This season I do. Isn't this the team that Ozzie wants?

ChiSox81
02-23-2010, 12:43 PM
You will hold Ozzie more accountable than the players? I still don't get that.

Each player needs to contribute. It isn't the manager's fault if the player fails to live up to reasonable expectations.

Yes this is a damn good roster infact its in the top 3 of the AL. If the team doesn't play well this year it falls on Ozzie shoulders. There are exceptions of course like major injuries to key players but otherwise this team better be in the playoffs in this weak division.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 12:45 PM
DH is a 100% offensive position that guillen is trying to turn on its head for some reason.

Well, we'll probably win the gold glove at DH this season! Oh, wait...

jabrch
02-23-2010, 12:47 PM
This season I do. Isn't this the team that Ozzie wants?


I'm not sure what OG wanting this has to do with what the guys do on the field. They still need to execute.

Madvora
02-23-2010, 12:49 PM
He says we won in 2005 without a lot of guys that could hit home runs? Is he crazy?
Didn't we lead the league in home runs or something?

EDIT - 200 HRs and 5th in the MLB.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/byteam?cat=Overall&cut_type=0&sort=706&conference=MLB&year=season_2005

Lip Man 1
02-23-2010, 01:20 PM
Mad:

And also in the top five in most pitching categories, sacrifice flies, sacrifice bunts, stolen bases and infield hits.

It's called balance, my friend.

Lip

voodoochile
02-23-2010, 01:32 PM
Mad:

And also in the top five in most pitching categories, sacrifice flies, sacrifice bunts, stolen bases and infield hits.

It's called balance, my friend.

Lip

9th in the AL in runs scored, third in the AL in runs allowed...

gobears1987
02-23-2010, 01:33 PM
The hate Ozzie crowd is getting an early start this season. The manager is the biggest scapegoat in baseball. If the players don't perform, that is on the players. If the players on this team perform to the expectations I have of them, we should be easy favorites to win the division. This is a very well balanced team that should avoid the corpseball that has plagued this team when we were the homerun or nothing club that some posters seem to long for.

beasly213
02-23-2010, 01:34 PM
The hate Ozzie crowd is getting an early start this season. The manager is the biggest scapegoat in baseball. If the players don't perform, that is on the players. If the players on this team perform to the expectations I have of them, we should be easy favorites to win the division. This is a very well balanced team that should avoid the corpseball that has plagued this team when we were the homerun or nothing club that some posters seem to long for.


It is on the players but these are the top of players Ozzie asked for. If the Sox don't win this year it's on him.

sox1970
02-23-2010, 01:38 PM
Mad:

And also in the top five in most pitching categories, sacrifice flies, sacrifice bunts, stolen bases and infield hits.

It's called balance, my friend.

Lip

I think the offense this year is pretty balanced as well. I think they have at least 170 homers on that roster, with more doubles/triples. They may not score 10+ runs many times, but I think the 2 or less run games will be down, too. And if the pitching is everything it should be, then we'll be in good shape.

#1swisher
02-23-2010, 01:46 PM
The hate Ozzie crowd is getting an early start this season. The manager is the biggest scapegoat in baseball. If the players don't perform, that is on the players. If the players on this team perform to the expectations I have of them, we should be easy favorites to win the division. This is a very well balanced team that should avoid the corpseball that has plagued this team when we were the homerun or nothing club that some posters seem to long for.

I'm the only one to make an Ozzie comment. In 7729 posts, never have I said that I hate Ozzie.

Madvora
02-23-2010, 01:59 PM
Mad:

And also in the top five in most pitching categories, sacrifice flies, sacrifice bunts, stolen bases and infield hits.

It's called balance, my friend.

Lip
I understand that, but his statement is inaccurate. The 2005 Sox knew how to hit home runs. They didn't live off them like most of the teams before and after that year, but they did hit them.

Domeshot17
02-23-2010, 02:02 PM
It is on the players but these are the top of players Ozzie asked for. If the Sox don't win this year it's on him.

Exactly. If the Sox miss the playoffs by 2-3 games or more, and the DH position fails, it will be on Ozzie. It is REASONABLE to expect some players to have up years, some down, and some normal. Thats why you try and build the best team you can, not the best case team you can.

I think that is the big problem some of us have. There isn't a cushion here. In 2005, we also had a pretty good Defensive team. We had a better defensive IF by leaps and bounds, at every position. This year, the defense is average at best. We also need Quentin to be Konerko in 2005, have a monster year and carry the load. Alot to task from a guy whos never a taken 500 AB season in his career and is a a 254 career hitter.

Look, I think this style of play CAN WORK. Boston is making it work. But you NEED guys who hit for a high average. Boston had 5 regulars last year hit over .290 and another at 279 and another over .260. Of that 5 4 had an OPS over .800 and the other was the lead off man. I just don't know if its reasonable for us to expect to have 2-4 guys on the team who will hit .290 with a 900 ops, we may not have 1. That falls on the combo of Ozzie and Kenny.

Craig Grebeck
02-23-2010, 02:12 PM
The manager is the scapegoat when he demands that the GM not add another player that would, without question, improve the offensive complexion. So, yes, jabrch, there are times in life when the manager may be fired. Of course, were KW to fire Ozzie, jabrch would be the first in line to kiss his ass.

Mod Edit: There's the personal attack that earned you a week off.

guillen4life13
02-23-2010, 02:34 PM
That's all fine....except that Ozzie's favorite candidate for DH have shown little ability to hit his 20 homers. Kotsay's never done it, Vizquel's never done it, and JOnes hasn't done it since the Braves let him go. I believe he actually metioned Nix once - my lord!
The new 3B hasn't done it either, but fits in well with Ozzie's love of modest-power, solid batting average but low obp ballplayers.
DH is a 100% offensive position that guillen is trying to turn on its head for some reason.

Just last year, in only 331 plate appearances, Andruw Jones hit 17 home runs. If he had played the whole season at the same pace, he would have hit over 30 bombs. In 2008 he was plagued by injuries.

oeo
02-23-2010, 02:37 PM
The hate Ozzie crowd is getting an early start this season. The manager is the biggest scapegoat in baseball. If the players don't perform, that is on the players. If the players on this team perform to the expectations I have of them, we should be easy favorites to win the division. This is a very well balanced team that should avoid the corpseball that has plagued this team when we were the homerun or nothing club that some posters seem to long for.

Most of these people started when Thome wasn't signed. That's about when it became cool to say Ozzie is an idiot. Even though Ozzie never said he wouldn't take another bat, he just didn't want Thome limping around the bases anymore.

oeo
02-23-2010, 02:44 PM
The manager is the scapegoat when he demands that the GM not add another player that would, without question, improve the offensive complexion. So, yes, jabrch, there are times in life when the manager may be fired. Of course, were KW to fire Ozzie, jabrch would be the first in line to kiss his ass.

Mod Edit: There's the personal attack that earned you a week off.

He demanded it? Then why did the Sox offer Johnny Damon a contract? Why did they offer contracts to Hideki Matsui and Nick Johnson?

Just keep believing what you want. Let's just ignore the facts and make **** up.

Ozzie says every year that he loves his team. He's the manager, he doesn't have a choice. What's he supposed to say? 'I hate the idea of rotating three guys who can't hit in the DH spot'? Oh yeah, let's start the season on a rocking boat. I hate to bring him up, but it's funny that the same people that burned Ozzie for benching Anderson because he couldn't hit are now saying Ozzie doesn't care about offense. Fact of the matter is, if you're not bringing much to the team, you're going to end up on the bench and Ozzie will 110% welcome changes.

doublem23
02-23-2010, 02:51 PM
The hate Ozzie crowd is getting an early start this season. The manager is the biggest scapegoat in baseball. If the players don't perform, that is on the players. If the players on this team perform to the expectations I have of them, we should be easy favorites to win the division. This is a very well balanced team that should avoid the corpseball that has plagued this team when we were the homerun or nothing club that some posters seem to long for.

So then what is the point of having a manager?

doublem23
02-23-2010, 02:55 PM
Most of these people started when Thome wasn't signed. That's about when it became cool to say Ozzie is an idiot. Even though Ozzie never said he wouldn't take another bat, he just didn't want Thome limping around the bases anymore.

Or, if you'd have been paying attention, most of us were simmering but confident the Sox would have made a move to address their glaring weakness. Thome was a great fit for what this team needed and they let him walk for what? A couple million dollars? That really should tell you this whole DH thing is a preconceived idea by either KW or Ozzie, and its quite frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

guillen4life13
02-23-2010, 02:59 PM
Or, if you'd have been paying attention, most of us were simmering but confident the Sox would have made a move to address their glaring weakness. Thome was a great fit for what this team needed and they let him walk for what? A couple million dollars? That really should tell you this whole DH thing is a preconceived idea by either KW or Ozzie, and its quite frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

You need to see more, my friend. :D:

oeo
02-23-2010, 03:07 PM
Or, if you'd have been paying attention, most of us were simmering but confident the Sox would have made a move to address their glaring weakness. Thome was a great fit for what this team needed and they let him walk for what? A couple million dollars? That really should tell you this whole DH thing is a preconceived idea by either KW or Ozzie, and its quite frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

No, I've been paying attention. I am one of those people that want them to address the offensive weakness, I'm pretty sure every White Sox fan around wants to see improvement there. It was after Thome was not signed that the majority of WSI turned on the organization. You can go look back. For the most part, most people were in pretty good spirits except for those that always have something to complain about.

I disagree that Thome would have been a 'great' fit. Damon would have been a great fit, not Thome. I love Thome, he's one of my favorite all time players, but the man was actually told that he has to take it easy on the basepaths to the point where he can only jog.

After hearing more stories about who the Sox were after, I'm more and more thinking that this was Plan D or E in their offseason, rather than some idea that was popped up in October. Sure, signing Jones so early in the offseason doesn't make a lot of sense, but I clearly remember Kenny saying after Kotsay, Vizquel, and Jones were all signed that he felt they had one of the best benches in baseball.

Things didn't work out as planned, as they usually don't. Same reason we ended up with Nick Swisher a couple years ago (who was a Plan D after Hunter, Rowand, and Fukudome), and Dye/Contreras/Colon instead of Abreu/add another pitcher here last year. Now we have to wait and see. The first chance Kenny gets to improve the team, he's going to do it. He's already mentioned that he wants another left-handed bat and said if Dye was left-handed he would already be here. Things are going to change between now and July 31st, this is Kenny Williams we're talking about.

WhiteSoxFTW
02-23-2010, 03:12 PM
The hate Ozzie crowd is getting an early start this season. The manager is the biggest scapegoat in baseball. If the players don't perform, that is on the players. If the players on this team perform to the expectations I have of them, we should be easy favorites to win the division. This is a very well balanced team that should avoid the corpseball that has plagued this team when we were the homerun or nothing club that some posters seem to long for.
So then what is the point of having a manager?
Dang, you beat me to it. That is the first thing I thought of. Sure, managers across baseball take some blame for things out of their control every year...that's part of the job. But, at the same time, they are directly responsible for the play of the 25 men on that roster. They have teaching opportunities every day. You can't blame everything on indivual players.

CLR01
02-23-2010, 03:18 PM
Dang, you beat me to it. That is the first thing I thought of. Sure, managers across baseball take some blame for things out of their control every year...that's part of the job. But, at the same time, they are directly responsible for the play of the 25 men on that roster. They have teaching opportunities every day. You can't blame everything on indivual players.


I find it funny that some of the loudest members of the "leave Ozzie alone" crowd are also some of the loudest members of the "fire X" when it comes to every sport played in Chicago* not called baseball.


*-by Chicago I man throughout the world.

jabrch
02-23-2010, 03:18 PM
Ozzie says every year that he loves his team. He's the manager, he doesn't have a choice. What's he supposed to say?

Show me a manager who walks into ST and, on the first day, says something like, "This team sucks ass. They can't hit. They can't field. My DH blows. My IF blows...etc. etc. etc." I doubt you can. He'd deservedly get fired that day.

it's funny that the same people that burned Ozzie for benching Anderson because he couldn't hit are now saying Ozzie doesn't care about offense. Fact of the matter is, if you're not bringing much to the team, you're going to end up on the bench and Ozzie will 110% welcome changes.

Good point OEO.

jabrch
02-23-2010, 03:28 PM
So then what is the point of having a manager?

To manage the team. But not to blame for everything that goes wrong.

Thome was a great fit for what this team needed and they let him walk for what? A couple million dollars? That really should tell you this whole DH thing is a preconceived idea by either KW or Ozzie, and its quite frankly the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

It doesn't appear as if it were the money - since they were willing to pay much more for a better player. Isn't it possible that they let Jim Thome go because they don't believe he will be any more productive than what they have. Isn't it possible they let him go because he can't hit LHP anymore? Isn't it possible they let him go because Jim isn't the type who would do well only playing a few days a week? Isn't it possible they hated knowing that he could be marginalized in close/late situations with a dominant LHP? Isn't it possible they let him go because they no longer wanted a player who can't play defense and they wanted more versatility in their roster? I believe that they did not let him go over money as you say. I believe they let him go because there were better options out there (like Damon) and that worst case, they feel they can get similar or maybe even more impactful production from what they have.

slash lines tell you something - but they sure as **** don't tell you everything.

thedudeabides
02-23-2010, 03:43 PM
He demanded it? Then why did the Sox offer Johnny Damon a contract? Why did they offer contracts to Hideki Matsui and Nick Johnson?

Just keep believing what you want. Let's just ignore the facts and make **** up.

Ozzie says every year that he loves his team. He's the manager, he doesn't have a choice. What's he supposed to say? 'I hate the idea of rotating three guys who can't hit in the DH spot'? Oh yeah, let's start the season on a rocking boat. I hate to bring him up, but it's funny that the same people that burned Ozzie for benching Anderson because he couldn't hit are now saying Ozzie doesn't care about offense. Fact of the matter is, if you're not bringing much to the team, you're going to end up on the bench and Ozzie will 110% welcome changes.

This is the thing I don't get about the DH being Ozzie's fault?

He didn't say no to any of the players you mentioned. He said it about Thome. And if he's wrong about Thome, that is on him.

If the team fails because they are short one bat, that is on Kenny.

I think too many took the Thome thing too personally. He was a great guy and a great player while here, I figured there would be a backlash.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 04:37 PM
Some of these comments make me sad. The thought of some people acting more pessimistically towards this upcoming season than last confusing me like no other. :scratch:
I trust Ozzie, and I also think we will reach 90 wins, or at least close. :bandance:
by sad, I literally mean SAD, don't take it as I think everyone is stupid. Some of you seem to jump on the defensive side too quickly.

kittle42
02-23-2010, 04:39 PM
Some of these comments make me sad. The thought of some people acting more pessimistically towards this upcoming season than last confusing me like no other. :scratch:

Hey, not me - this team sucked going into last season on paper - certainly more than this season - and they turned out sucky at the end. Hopefully, 2010 is different. The team has holes, for sure, but at least starting pitching should be a solid, solid, strength.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 04:51 PM
Hey, not me - this team sucked going into last season on paper - certainly more than this season - and they turned out sucky at the end. Hopefully, 2010 is different. The team has holes, for sure, but at least starting pitching should be a solid, solid, strength.+ We don't have questions at any positions, just players who either might be out of gas, or haven't exactly even shown their potential. Getz and Fields starting the season was a HUGE "IF" and Betamit as a backup is even bigger. Now we have Beckham and Teahen, where we can expect certain things at certain levels, and Vizquel, who we know can throw some leather.

Our lineup isn't stronger, it's just more solid. We will probably lose most of the 15-3 games... but I think we will win most of the 4-2 and 1-0's. That's just my take.

hi im skot
02-23-2010, 05:13 PM
Show me a manager who walks into ST and, on the first day, says something like, "This team sucks ass. They can't hit. They can't field. My DH blows. My IF blows...etc. etc. etc." I doubt you can. He'd deservedly get fired that day.


Pretty sure Lou Brown wasn't too happy with his team on opening day.


http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/major-league-lou-brown.jpg

voodoochile
02-23-2010, 05:23 PM
Pretty sure Lou Brown wasn't too happy with his team on opening day.


http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/major-league-lou-brown.jpg


I'm not sure it's quite the same when the owner looks like Reinsy. The players might start tanking games so they didn't have to rip off pieces of clothing...

kobo
02-23-2010, 05:47 PM
I can't wait for the season to begin. At least then people can bitch, moan, and complain about what's actually happening on the field instead of what they think is going to happen.

asindc
02-23-2010, 05:58 PM
To manage the team. But not to blame for everything that goes wrong.



It doesn't appear as if it were the money - since they were willing to pay much more for a better player. Isn't it possible that they let Jim Thome go because they don't believe he will be any more productive than what they have. Isn't it possible they let him go because he can't hit LHP anymore? Isn't it possible they let him go because Jim isn't the type who would do well only playing a few days a week? Isn't it possible they hated knowing that he could be marginalized in close/late situations with a dominant LHP? Isn't it possible they let him go because they no longer wanted a player who can't play defense and they wanted more versatility in their roster? I believe that they did not let him go over money as you say. I believe they let him go because there were better options out there (like Damon) and that worst case, they feel they can get similar or maybe even more impactful production from what they have.

slash lines tell you something - but they sure as **** don't tell you everything.

All those things are quite possible, because the team's pursuit of Matsui and Damon provides overwhelming evidence that they prefer what they have now over re-signing Thome (I also agree), yet were willing to pay more than a couple of million dollars to improve the DH position. It also provides overwhelming evidence that whatever plans Ozzie might be going into the season with, KW's plan was to improve the DH position. So the only thing Ozzie can be blamed for is if he does not do his job this season and beyond. Sox management has shown that it shares the concerns about the DH position with many of its fans. So folks can question the method if they want, but the motives are indisputable.

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 06:06 PM
I can't wait for the season to begin. At least then people can bitch, moan, and complain about what's actually happening on the field instead of what they think is going to happen.


But then people will claim it's too early, and that people can't make a judgment until the season is over.

voodoochile
02-23-2010, 06:09 PM
But then people will claim it's too early, and that people can't make a judgment until the season is over.

Well guess what, the 3rd day of training camp actually IS too early...

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 06:11 PM
Well guess what, the 3rd day of training camp actually IS too early...


In July/August it won't be though. But people will say it is too early then....

CLR01
02-23-2010, 06:12 PM
Well guess what, the 3rd day of training camp actually IS too early...


It's never too early to know that Jones has no business being in the middle of the lineup. Jones can be put in the middle when he proves he belongs there. I also don't need a few starts to know that AJ has no business playing SS but I'm sure WSI would suggest we wait it out should Ozzie decide that's what he wants to do.

asindc
02-23-2010, 06:12 PM
Well guess what, the 3rd day of training camp actually IS too early...

So is the very beginning of the season.

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 06:15 PM
It's never too early to know that Jones has no business being in the middle of the lineup. Jones can be put in the middle when he proves he belongs there. I also don't need a few starts to know that AJ has no business playing SS but I'm sure WSI would suggest we wait it out should Ozzie decide that's what he wants to do.


Well said.:smile:

doublem23
02-23-2010, 06:24 PM
Well guess what, the 3rd day of training camp actually IS too early...

Can you guys at least please just admit that you're being biased because this is the Sox? I really don't mind bias, I know that's at the heart of WSI, but can someone please admit to me that if the Twins or Tigers came out today and said they were planning on batting Andruw Jones in the middle of their order we'd be laughing them off the boards? Please? Please? Please?

Danielgosox38
02-23-2010, 06:33 PM
can you guys at least please just admit that you're being biased because this is the sox? I really don't mind bias, i know that's at the heart of wsi, but can someone please admit to me that if the twins or tigers came out today and said they were planning on batting andruw jones in the middle of their order we'd be laughing them off the boards? Please? Please? Please?


potw.

asindc
02-23-2010, 06:45 PM
Can you guys at least please just admit that you're being biased because this is the Sox? I really don't mind bias, I know that's at the heart of WSI, but can someone please admit to me that if the Twins or Tigers came out today and said they were planning on batting Andruw Jones in the middle of their order we'd be laughing them off the boards? Please? Please? Please?

Can you guys at least please just admit that you're [thinking the grass is greener on our competitors' ball fields] because [you don't like some of our players]? I really don't mind [coveting some of our competitors' players], I know that [it is natural], but can someone please admit to me that if the [Sox] came out today and said they were planning on [starting either Nick Punto or Brendon Harris at 3B, Delmon Young in LF, Adam Everett at SS, Gerald Laird at C, or Carlos Guillen at DH] we'd be [calling KW and Ozzie idiots for it?] Please? Please? Please?

kittle42
02-23-2010, 07:02 PM
Can you guys at least please just admit that you're [thinking the grass is greener on our competitors' ball fields] because [you don't like some of our players]? I really don't mind [coveting some of our competitors' players], I know that [it is natural], but can someone please admit to me that if the [Sox] came out today and said they were planning on [starting either Nick Punto or Brendon Harris at 3B, Delmon Young in LF, Adam Everett at SS, Gerald Laird at C, or Carlos Guillen at DH] we'd be [calling KW and Ozzie idiots for it?] Please? Please? Please?

Why do we have to justify the Sox' holes and arguably poor strategy assembling the offense on paper by saying other teams also have holes and make stupid decisions? Is it too much to hope the Sox have/make fewer of those than their direct competition?

asindc
02-23-2010, 07:11 PM
Why do we have to justify the Sox' holes and arguably poor strategy assembling the offense on paper by saying other teams also have holes and make stupid decisions? Is it too much to hope the Sox have/make fewer of those than their direct competition?

My point is that every team in MLB has at least one hole in its starting lineup. The fact that the Sox do might just be a sign that, despite attempts to obtain Halladay, Matsui, and Damon within the past few months, sometimes they cannot be helped. If the Sox had not tried to obtain Matsui or Damon I might be beyond disappointed about it like I am, but would be quite upset about their lack of effort to continue to improve the team. That is not the case, however. I don't care what Ozzie has said about the DH situation, KW's efforts show me that they want to improve that position and will not hesitate to make more efforts to do so if the need arises. We all hope that the Sox have fewer holes than the competition, of course. Some of us just see the efforts made to make that happen and are therefore not inclined to accuse KW of not doing anything.