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View Full Version : Damon Episode 5: The Empire Strikes Out


Brian26
02-21-2010, 03:18 PM
Hopefully this will be the last one.

mzh
02-21-2010, 03:20 PM
26 more posts until Johnny Damon has made people more excited than Jake Peavy :?:

LoveYourSuit
02-21-2010, 03:24 PM
26 more posts until Johnny Damon has made people more excited than Jake Peavy :?:


I think it's more of an indication of how badly fans want another quality bat in this line-up.


I can't wait for the season to start, get all my questions answered and hopefully Andrew Jones does indeed have that break-out season Ozzie and Co feel he is capable of. We are going to need this guy to be very damn good this year.

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 03:29 PM
The only thing that affected Cabrera that day was the incident that went down with his wife.

Neither you nor I know how much he drank before previous games last year or during previous seasons. Whether he's an alcoholic or not has nothing to do with how he played during that game.


HE HAD THE INCIDENT BECAUSE HE CAME HOME DRUNK!!!

He was still selfsh enough to go out and get his blood alcohol level above .2 the night before a game the Tigers needed to win. That shows a lapse in judgment that MAY be an issue.

Now, let's try this one more time.

I FULLY EXPECT CABRERA TO HIT TO HIS CAREER AVERAGES THIS SEASON AND BE A PHENOMENAL PLAYER FOR THE TIGERS.

Brian26
02-21-2010, 03:33 PM
HE HAD THE INCIDENT BECAUSE HE CAME HOME DRUNK!!!

He was still selfsh enough to go out and get his blood alcohol level above .2 the night before a game the Tigers needed to win. That shows a lapse in judgment that MAY be an issue.

Now, let's try this one more time.

I FULLY EXPECT CABRERA TO HIT TO HIS CAREER AVERAGES THIS SEASON AND BE A PHENOMENAL PLAYER FOR THE TIGERS.

Why are you shouting?

Craig Grebeck
02-21-2010, 03:34 PM
I think there's still a discussion at foot. Might as well let it continue.

GoGoCrede
02-21-2010, 03:35 PM
A+ thread title, Brian. :thumbsup:

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 03:41 PM
Why are you shouting?

Nobody was listening.:redface:

Pablo_Honey
02-21-2010, 03:44 PM
So, if I understood this correctly, this is how I'd summarize the popular opinion in this thread:

Damon is an upgrade to our offense and not signing him is a mistake and a clear evidence that the Sox management does not want to spend the extra dough to further shape this team into a proper contender. Our offense will suck because we didn't sign Damon. Signing Damon would have been a significant upgrade and 8 mil is nothing for a rich man like Jerry Reinsdorf. They are being cheap and this whole rotating DH is a joke.

Don't know what else is there to talk about really...I've given my opinion but I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm talking about so I should just shut it because frankly nobody cares. So yeah, continue on folks.

Craig Grebeck
02-21-2010, 03:47 PM
I would have liked Matsui, myself, and am more disdainful of our not signing him than Damon.

Noneck
02-21-2010, 03:50 PM
So, if I understood this correctly, this is how I'd summarize the popular opinion in this thread:

Damon is an upgrade to our offense and not signing him is a mistake and a clear evidence that the Sox management does not want to spend the extra dough to further shape this team into a proper contender. Our offense will suck because we didn't sign Damon. Signing Damon would have been a significant upgrade and 8 mil is nothing for a rich man like Jerry Reinsdorf. They are being cheap and this whole rotating DH is a joke.

Don't know what else is there to talk about really...I've given my opinion but I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm talking about so I should just shut it because frankly nobody cares. So yeah, continue on folks.

You forgot that the 1st half of the season is just like that season of Dallas, where it was just all a dream and didn't impact future plots to their story.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-21-2010, 03:52 PM
You forgot that the 1st half of the season is just like that season of Dallas, where it was just all a dream and didn't impact future plots to their story.Everyone here misinterpreted my post. And it's getting ****ing annoying. I said I'd rather have money to spare to get a player mid-season, instead of wasting it on someone like Damon, who is good, but not EXACTLY what we need. The beginning of the season is never looked at in the same way as the last month and a half of the season.

Daver
02-21-2010, 03:55 PM
Everyone here misinterpreted my post. And it's getting ****ing annoying. I said I'd rather have money to spare to get a player mid-season, instead of wasting it on someone like Damon, who is good, but not EXACTLY what we need. The beginning of the season is never looked at in the same way as the last month and a half of the season.

And if the team is mired in third place at mid season because they started the season with an anemic offense and defense they don't have to do anything at all.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-21-2010, 03:58 PM
And if the team is mired in third place at mid season because they started the season with an anemic offense and defense they don't have to do anything at all.If not having Damon makes you think we are a 3rd place team with no chance, then having him shouldn't really make a difference. The talk around here is making me wonder if this Damon guy really is Jesus.

Noneck
02-21-2010, 03:58 PM
Everyone here misinterpreted my post. And it's getting ****ing annoying. I said I'd rather have money to spare to get a player mid-season, instead of wasting it on someone like Damon, who is good, but not EXACTLY what we need.

It not you, its everyone that is so damn happy that ticket sales are going good, the Sox still have the Damon $ and now there is money out there for that big name in July to put them over the hump.

Well the Sox could be 6 feet under by then and unless they change their name to Lazurus, none of that money will mean squat.

masloan
02-21-2010, 04:11 PM
Not sure if this has been posted, as I do not feel like reading 4 threads, but has anyone checked out his splits from last season? Yes, Damon is a decent hitter. Out of his 24 home runs, 17 of them were at Yankee Stadium. 21 of his home runs were to right field. He had a .330 BAbip away from Yankee stadium, and still only managed a .284 BA and a .349 OBP. In the first half of the season, he hit a hr every 20 ABs. In the second half, he hit a HR every 30 ABs. My point is that while I would not have minded signing Damon, there are a ton of red flags regarding his performance. Obviously the Cell is a hitters park, but not quite like Yankee Stadium. And i know that it is not just about home runs. But, seems like some people are overrating his potential impact.

As far as not having a "DH"...that is not true. Like many people have said there are a ton of people who will play atleast 1 game at DH. Regardless of the Sox signed Matsui, Damon or Jermaine, their offense will not be good unless Beckham, TCQ, Alexei, Pierre, Konerko, AJ etc have good seasons. And if they have good seasons, than the rotation of Jones, Kotsay, Vizquel, Nix etc. will not be a detriment. There have been plenty of national league teams with good offenses (overall, not just comparing to NL teams.) And those teams did not have a DH/9th hitter in the lineup.

Not to mention, as many of pointed out on here, there is always a chance to make a mid season acquisition. If the sox are in position to "buy" at the deadline, not having Damon or Matsui wont matter. And if they are in position to "sell", than Damon or Matsui would not have made the difference.

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 04:13 PM
It not you, its everyone that is so damn happy that ticket sales are going good, the Sox still have the Damon $ and now there is money out there for that big name in July to put them over the hump.

Well the Sox could be 6 feet under by then and unless they change their name to Lazurus, none of that money will mean squat.

The White Sox were in first place last season on July 23rd, without Jake Peavy, without Alex Rios, with Quentin having been hurt most of the year, with Beckham one month into his career, with a LF will no arm and poor range, and with a revolving door in center field.

They're not going to be buried before they can make a deal.

oeo
02-21-2010, 04:13 PM
26 more posts until Johnny Damon has made people more excited than Jake Peavy :?:

The original thread was started a month ago (1/20), and there's been heavy posting for over a week (the 11th was when rumors first came out that the Sox were interested). Peavy lasted one day and there was also a baseball season going on.

WhiteSox5187
02-21-2010, 04:13 PM
If not having Damon makes you think we are a 3rd place team with no chance, then having him shouldn't really make a difference. The talk around here is making me wonder if this Damon guy really is Jesus.

Once Damon signed iwth the Yankees there were shirts in Boston that said: "Looks like Jesus, acts like Judas, throws like Mary."

Also, why are we still discussing this? It is official that Damon has signed elsewhere, isn't it?

Noneck
02-21-2010, 04:15 PM
The White Sox were in first place last season on July 23rd, without Jake Peavy, without Alex Rios, with Quentin having been hurt most of the year, with Beckham one month into his career, with a LF will no arm and poor range, and with a revolving door in center field.

They're not going to be buried before they can make a deal.

Live for today, Tomorrow may never come.

asindc
02-21-2010, 04:17 PM
Once Damon signed iwth the Yankees there were shirts in Boston that said: "Looks like Jesus, acts like Judas, throws like Mary."

Also, why are we still discussing this? It is official that Damon has signed elsewhere, isn't it?

No, there were not. Their shirts were much, much worse, trust me.

WhiteSox5187
02-21-2010, 04:19 PM
No, there were not. Their shirts were much, much worse, trust me.

Really? I never saw them (I've only been to Boston once) but my brother out there said that's what the shirts were saying. It gave me a cheap chuckle.

oeo
02-21-2010, 04:20 PM
Live for today, Tomorrow may never come.

And with that type of attitude it probably won't.

asindc
02-21-2010, 04:21 PM
I was there for the Sox series against them this past year. Many of the shirts sold outside of the park are R-rated at least. I have a couple of friends in Boston who say that Damon is considered the worst turncoat because he told Boston fans that he would not sign with NYY.

jabrch
02-21-2010, 04:33 PM
It's entirely possible we regret not spending whatever more it would have taken.

It is also quite possible we won't.

And on Feb 21, there is absolutely no way to tell which situation it is.

I'm more excited about the guys we have than the guys we don't. And the guys we have are pretty damn good. I still see us and the Twins neck and neck with Detroit a distant third.

Craig Grebeck
02-21-2010, 04:38 PM
I think this discussion would have a lot more merit if people stopped painting it as "Damon must be Jesus or something; Damon's not worth X amount of wins!"

That's not the argument. It's not Damon vs. nobody, it's Damon vs. the pile of **** we have currently. Significant difference, it is.

Domeshot17
02-21-2010, 04:40 PM
I don't get why people are upset at Damon:

Go to team A with a million question marks and a 33.33% chance to win a bad division for 8 million or Go to team B with a million question marks and a 33.33% chance to win a bad division for 6 million.

The Tigers just made it a 3 team race.

I hate this praying for a former roider who is lazy and hasn't done anything worth a damn in 3 years to turn his career around and save our team.

Damon was a good fit for the lineup and for Ozzie's rotation. I mean, can people honestly say they think we are a serious contender when every day 1 of Omar Vizquel, Andruw Jones or Mark Kotsay is going to be in the lineup, and 3 days a week 2 of them will?

If Gordon Beckham doesn't become Evan Longoria good, can carry a team on his back good, or Quentin doesn't improve on the one good season hes had, this team is beyond screwed. We play in the American League. There are atleast 2 teams leaps and bounds better than us as a complete picture. We are a roll of the dice with 2 other teams to win the worst division. I hate this sense of complacency. If we do not win the central with the rotation we have, both Ozzie and Kenny need to be gone.

I get everyone likes to feel good, I know I have a more winning is everything point of view, but constantly striking out on premier free agents is not good. Give me Damon at 8 mil versus a slugger at half price who costs us Hudson or Flowers any day.

guillen4life13
02-21-2010, 04:45 PM
I think this discussion would have a lot more merit if people stopped painting it as "Damon must be Jesus or something; Damon's not worth X amount of wins!"

That's not the argument. It's not Damon vs. nobody, it's Damon vs. the pile of **** we have currently. Significant difference, it is.

But you're doing the same thing with Jones/Kotsay, even in the face of evidence to say that they ought to legitimately be good for a .750 OPS and 80 RBI, as very conservative estimate.

So the discussion would have a lot more merit if people stopped painting it as Jones/Kotsay being a pile of ****, because that's just as misleading as the whole Damon=Jesus issue you're talking about.

If the 2010 White Sox miss the playoffs, it's not going to be because of the DH situation.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-21-2010, 04:45 PM
It's entirely possible we regret not spending whatever more it would have taken.

It is also quite possible we won't.

And on Feb 21, there is absolutely no way to tell which situation it is.

I'm more excited about the guys we have than the guys we don't. And the guys we have are pretty damn good. I still see us and the Twins neck and neck with Detroit a distant third.Detroit last year + Damon is a team to reckon with... 2010 Detroit + Damon is still a 3rd place team, unless everyone has great seasons.

Craig Grebeck
02-21-2010, 04:46 PM
But you're doing the same thing with Jones/Kotsay, even in the face of evidence to say that they ought to legitimately be good for a .750 OPS and 80 RBI, as very conservative estimate.

So the discussion would have a lot more merit if people stopped painting it as Jones/Kotsay being a pile of ****, because that's just as misleading as the whole Damon=Jesus issue you're talking about.

If the 2010 White Sox miss the playoffs, it's not going to be because of the DH situation.
I'm missing the evidence here. Kotsay's back is held together by a safety pin at this point, and Jones hasn't been a productive major leaguer in years.

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 04:48 PM
I think this discussion would have a lot more merit if people stopped painting it as "Damon must be Jesus or something; Damon's not worth X amount of wins!"

That's not the argument. It's not Damon vs. nobody, it's Damon vs. the pile of **** we have currently. Significant difference, it is.

It would also go a lot farther if people stopped arguing it's either Damon right now or the Sox are beyond screwed and will be out of it by April Fools Day.

Craig Grebeck
02-21-2010, 04:49 PM
It would also go a lot farther if people stopped arguing it's either Damon right now or the Sox are beyond screwed and will be out of it by April Fools Day.
But who is arguing that? I don't know that the Sox will be out of it by May or June or July or August; what I do know is that they will significantly improve their playoff chances by adding talented players to the ballclub. Currently, our offense doesn't look very good. Why not want an upgrade?

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 04:51 PM
The Tigers just made it a 3 team race.

I hate this praying for a former roider who is lazy and hasn't done anything worth a damn in 3 years to turn his career around and save our team.

Damon was a good fit for the lineup and for Ozzie's rotation. I mean, can people honestly say they think we are a serious contender when every day 1 of Omar Vizquel, Andruw Jones or Mark Kotsay is going to be in the lineup, and 3 days a week 2 of them will?

If Gordon Beckham doesn't become Evan Longoria good, can carry a team on his back good, or Quentin doesn't improve on the one good season hes had, this team is beyond screwed. We play in the American League. There are atleast 2 teams leaps and bounds better than us as a complete picture. We are a roll of the dice with 2 other teams to win the worst division. I hate this sense of complacency. If we do not win the central with the rotation we have, both Ozzie and Kenny need to be gone.

I get everyone likes to feel good, I know I have a more winning is everything point of view, but constantly striking out on premier free agents is not good. Give me Damon at 8 mil versus a slugger at half price who costs us Hudson or Flowers any day.

You keep making this point. Do you have any evidence for dragging Jones' name trough the mud other than two really bad seasons?

Also, I wouldn't be surprised for the White Sox to be able to pick up an impact bat without giving up Hudson and Flowers. They'd probably be the starting point for someone like Gonzalez but it's not like Gonzalez is the only hitter that will be available that will be able to improve this lineup.

Craig Grebeck
02-21-2010, 04:54 PM
You keep making this point. Do you have any evidence for dragging Jones' name trough the mud other than two really bad seasons?

Also, I wouldn't be surprised for the White Sox to be able to pick up an impact bat without giving up Hudson and Flowers. They'd probably be the starting point for someone like Gonzalez but it's not like Gonzalez is the only hitter that will be available that will be able to improve this lineup.
I guess I'm just not keen on heading into the season knowing that you'll have to pick someone up at/around the deadline or all-star break. That kind of attitude is indicative of a glaring hole.

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 04:54 PM
But who is arguing that? I don't know that the Sox will be out of it by May or June or July or August; what I do know is that they will significantly improve their playoff chances by adding talented players to the ballclub. Currently, our offense doesn't look very good. Why not want an upgrade?

People have repeatedly made that point. Noneck said it in this very thread.

I do want an upgrade. I think Damon would've fit in perfectly with what they're trying to do out of the DH spot. That said, I believe they still have the time and resources available to get a bat to improve the lineup, whether it's in Spring Training or May-July.

Slappy
02-21-2010, 04:56 PM
Who would one of those bats be? I'm merely curious. A-Gon seems like a long shot to me, still. Would Dye be worth it, and at what cost? Delgado just had surgery, Branyan to the Indians...

Who's left, or will be available during the season?

Craig Grebeck
02-21-2010, 04:57 PM
People have repeatedly made that point. Noneck said it in this very thread.

I do want an upgrade. I think Damon would've fit in perfectly with what they're trying to do out of the DH spot. That said, I believe they still have the time and resources available to get a bat to improve the lineup, whether it's in Spring Training or May-July.
But who is left? And what will the condition of the team be in May or July? If you want to improve your chances, you don't go into the season with two bench players combining for a ton of PA.

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 04:58 PM
I guess I'm just not keen on heading into the season knowing that you'll have to pick someone up at/around the deadline or all-star break. That kind of attitude is indicative of a glaring hole.

The way I see it is nobody is going to run away with this division. Personally, even with Damon I still think Detroit has a mediocre lineup and a questionable rotation. I don't think Minnesota is that much better than anyone that they'll bury teams by May. That historically has not been the case in this division the last couple years.

I'd like the Sox to be loaded at every position going into ST so that we can sit back and wait to pop the champagne in October but they're not in that bad of a position right now. They've got a great rotation and potentially a lockdown bullpen if Jenks is fit, and Putz is healthy.

There are questions in the lineup but there is a lot of offensive potential in Rios, Beckham, Ramirez, and Quentin as well as even Teahen.

Slappy
02-21-2010, 05:00 PM
Also, MLB Trade Rumors has up that the Rays were in the Damon hunt until the end, outbidding everyone except the Tigers.

:shrug:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/02/odds-ends-damon-barajas-norton-iglesias.html

jabrch
02-21-2010, 05:00 PM
Detroit last year + Damon is a team to reckon with... 2010 Detroit + Damon is still a 3rd place team, unless everyone has great seasons.

I don't even think Detroit last year needed him - they still had Granderson and Polanco.

This rotation is weak after #2. The pen also looks weak. They don't make up for it with their offense. I'm not worried about them. How much better (if any) is Damon than Rayburn?

This is just a bad team staying bad.

Noneck
02-21-2010, 05:04 PM
And with that type of attitude it probably won't.

After just thinking about John Belushi and Chris Farley, you are right, I better rethink that one.

jabrch
02-21-2010, 05:09 PM
The Yanks are starting Brett Gardner. Marco Scutaro is starting for Boston. Brendan Harris is starting for the Thomes. Look at the Angels rotation. Casey Blake will get to see a lot of ABs against RH pitching. The Cards are loaded with Qs - so are the Cubs. The only team really without any major Qs is the Phils (and their pen is looks weak).

The overcatastrophization (new word) of our DH situation is quite comical.

guillen4life13
02-21-2010, 05:35 PM
I'm missing the evidence here. Kotsay's back is held together by a safety pin at this point, and Jones hasn't been a productive major leaguer in years.

Kotsay over the past 2 seasons, averaged into a 162 game season, gives a .727 OPS with 10 HR and 72 RBI. Of note, his BA is .277 and OBP is .328, so it his his SLG that suffers most.

Jones over 2007 (he played the whole season):

.724 OPS with 27 2B, 26 HR, 94 RBI.

Jones over 2009 (spread over 162 games, as he played 82 games last year):

.782 OPS with 35 2B, 33 HR, and 85 RBI.

Considering that Jones will likely get the majority of AB of the two due to health and production, if you spread Jones alone over a whole season, you should legitimately get something like a .755 OPS with 30+ 2B, ~30 HR, and ~90 RBI. Not the greatest numbers, but certainly no "pile of ****."

Is Damon a better choice, all things being equal? Sure. But at $8M that may be more useful later in the season, I'm not so sure.

Average that with Kotsay/Jones splitting time evenly over 162 games, and you get a .741 OPS, 20 HR, 81 RBI.

So, I was slightly generous on my OPS estimate, but the other estimates I was on base (pun intended). These estimates don't factor in the idea that they'll likely be used more in situations that are best suited to them. So let's delve further:

Kotsay against RHP over the last two years:
478 PA, .773 OPS, .289 AVG, .427 SLG, .346 OBP.

Jones against LHP over 2007 and 2009:
368 PA, .775 OPS, .222 AVG, .425 SLG, .350 OBP, 14 HR.

Again, it's not like we will see production equal to or better than Damon's, but it's no pile of ****.

Domeshot17
02-21-2010, 05:37 PM
You keep making this point. Do you have any evidence for dragging Jones' name trough the mud other than two really bad seasons?

Also, I wouldn't be surprised for the White Sox to be able to pick up an impact bat without giving up Hudson and Flowers. They'd probably be the starting point for someone like Gonzalez but it's not like Gonzalez is the only hitter that will be available that will be able to improve this lineup.

Its all speculation for anyone who hasn't tested positive but Jones name has been mentioned in a **** ton of rumors for the list of 104. I know there were a few different lists floating around the internet but no one knows for sure if those are valid.

I also have a source inside the Atlanta system, I don't get a TON from him (but he was right about Damon to Detroit being done). There was some speculation the reason Jones was let go without much effort in Atlanta was a trio of Attitude, Work Ethic and Steroids.

I think the other thing to note here is, a lot of us are much more upset THIS Year than Last year. Last year anyone who looked at that team and thought they had any chance to do anything special was fooling themselves. It was a putrid combination of trying to catch lightning in the bottle with retreads and kids who werent very good. This year, we have a pitching staff that can be special. We have a rotation that 26 or 27 other teams would kill to have. We have a bullpen, that if healthy, can just be lights out in the 7 8 and 9 with Putz Thornton and Jenks. And we have enough offense to win 86-87 games. If EVERYTHING goes right, we can win 90. If anything goes wrong, we are a .500 team. Why piss it away? I don't think there is 1 team in the AL that would trade their DH for the Jones/Kotsay platoon. thats saying something.

102605
02-21-2010, 05:38 PM
The Yanks are starting Brett Gardner. Marco Scutaro is starting for Boston. Brendan Harris is starting for the Thomes. Look at the Angels rotation. Casey Blake will get to see a lot of ABs against RH pitching. The Cards are loaded with Qs - so are the Cubs. The only team really without any major Qs is the Phils (and their pen is looks weak).

The overcatastrophization (new word) of our DH situation is quite comical.

:sunshine:Good points!

Domeshot17
02-21-2010, 05:49 PM
The Yanks are starting Brett Gardner. Marco Scutaro is starting for Boston. Brendan Harris is starting for the Thomes. Look at the Angels rotation. Casey Blake will get to see a lot of ABs against RH pitching. The Cards are loaded with Qs - so are the Cubs. The only team really without any major Qs is the Phils (and their pen is looks weak).

The overcatastrophization (new word) of our DH situation is quite comical.

Now come on now, The Yanks can start Gardner because they Have Jeter Arod Texeria etc. The Redsox offense is loaded, the Twins have one of the top offenses in baseball. The truth is the Yanks Red Sox Twins all have atleast 2 players who on any given year will finish in the top 10 of MVP voting, and most in the top 5. Do all teams have holes? Yes. Do any of the real contenders have holes like the Sox? The Twins rotation, but do you consider them real contenders?

guillen4life13
02-21-2010, 05:50 PM
Its all speculation for anyone who hasn't tested positive but Jones name has been mentioned in a **** ton of rumors for the list of 104. I know there were a few different lists floating around the internet but no one knows for sure if those are valid.

I also have a source inside the Atlanta system, I don't get a TON from him (but he was right about Damon to Detroit being done). There was some speculation the reason Jones was let go without much effort in Atlanta was a trio of Attitude, Work Ethic and Steroids.

I think the other thing to note here is, a lot of us are much more upset THIS Year than Last year. Last year anyone who looked at that team and thought they had any chance to do anything special was fooling themselves. It was a putrid combination of trying to catch lightning in the bottle with retreads and kids who werent very good. This year, we have a pitching staff that can be special. We have a rotation that 26 or 27 other teams would kill to have. We have a bullpen, that if healthy, can just be lights out in the 7 8 and 9 with Putz Thornton and Jenks. And we have enough offense to win 86-87 games. If EVERYTHING goes right, we can win 90. If anything goes wrong, we are a .500 team. Why piss it away? I don't think there is 1 team in the AL that would trade their DH for the Jones/Kotsay platoon. thats saying something.

The Tigers will have Carlos Guillen as their primary DH this year. He hasn't been good lately.
The Jndians will have Travis Hafner, who has had trouble staying healthy and productive of late also.
The Royals will have Jose Guillen and Josh Fields as their DH's.
The Rays will have Pat Burrell as their primary DH. He was horrible last year.
The Rangers have a deteriorating Vlad Guerrero at DH.
The Mariners have Griffey.

Of the above teams, the Mariners, Tigers, Rays and Rangers are expected to compete for their division crowns. And our DH platoon could realistically outperform them.

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 05:54 PM
Its all speculation for anyone who hasn't tested positive but Jones name has been mentioned in a **** ton of rumors for the list of 104. I know there were a few different lists floating around the internet but no one knows for sure if those are valid.

I also have a source inside the Atlanta system, I don't get a TON from him (but he was right about Damon to Detroit being done). There was some speculation the reason Jones was let go without much effort in Atlanta was a trio of Attitude, Work Ethic and Steroids.

I think the other thing to note here is, a lot of us are much more upset THIS Year than Last year. Last year anyone who looked at that team and thought they had any chance to do anything special was fooling themselves. It was a putrid combination of trying to catch lightning in the bottle with retreads and kids who werent very good. This year, we have a pitching staff that can be special. We have a rotation that 26 or 27 other teams would kill to have. We have a bullpen, that if healthy, can just be lights out in the 7 8 and 9 with Putz Thornton and Jenks. And we have enough offense to win 86-87 games. If EVERYTHING goes right, we can win 90. If anything goes wrong, we are a .500 team. Why piss it away? I don't think there is 1 team in the AL that would trade their DH for the Jones/Kotsay platoon. thats saying something.

That interesting information from your source in Atlanta. In a couple of the articles about Jones the last couple of days he's mentioned that one of the reasons he feels he's fallen off is he got complacent in Atlanta with doing the same thing every year. Which makes the fact that he's more focused and in great shape a good thing to hear. He also supposedly had knee issues in LA. I'm not trying to make excuses for him or say that he's the answer but those are interesting bits of info IMO.

As for your second point. You feel this team is an 86-87 win team. Considering 87 wins was enough to get to a tiebreaker last year in this division I don't feel that this team is going to get buried to the point where they can't make an adjustment if/when this DH situation isn't working. Can this team be improved? Absolutely. However I think they're in as good of a spot going into a season as they've been since 2006.

Daver
02-21-2010, 06:02 PM
And our DH platoon could realistically outperform them.

The American League has a spot in the line up specifically for a player that does nothing but hit, the White Sox have chosen to fill this spot with guys that don't hit all that well on any given day, as opposed to signing a legitimate hitter to do it.

guillen4life13
02-21-2010, 06:20 PM
The American League has a spot in the line up specifically for a player that does nothing but hit, the White Sox have chosen to fill this spot with guys that don't hit all that well on any given day, as opposed to signing a legitimate hitter to do it.

My post was in response to Domeshot17 saying that he couldn't think of one team in the AL whose DH situation was worse than ours.

Would I have preferred that the Sox sign Damon? Sure, but right now, I think that a LH reliever is of more importance. I don't feel comfortable with Randy Williams getting significant playing time.

It's not like I expect Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay to suddenly become the players they were 5-10 years ago. But I think I've given a good body of evidence to say that the DH situation isn't so doomed and will produce decent numbers this coming season.

I feel like this whole debate is so black and white when there are so many shades of gray in the middle.

"Is you is, aw is you ain't, a part of my constitchency?"

NLaloosh
02-21-2010, 06:49 PM
Also, MLB Trade Rumors has up that the Rays were in the Damon hunt until the end, outbidding everyone except the Tigers.

:shrug:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/02/odds-ends-damon-barajas-norton-iglesias.html

This can't be true that he signed with the Tigers because his wife hates Detroit! He would never sign there. She can't spend her millions there. I heard they have no stores in Detroit.

asindc
02-21-2010, 06:50 PM
The American League has a spot in the line up specifically for a player that does nothing but hit, the White Sox have chosen to fill this spot with guys that don't hit all that well on any given day, as opposed to signing a legitimate hitter to do it.

The Tigers will have Carlos Guillen as their primary DH this year. He hasn't been good lately.
The Jndians will have Travis Hafner, who has had trouble staying healthy and productive of late also.
The Royals will have Jose Guillen and Josh Fields as their DH's.
The Rays will have Pat Burrell as their primary DH. He was horrible last year.
The Rangers have a deteriorating Vlad Guerrero at DH.
The Mariners have Griffey.

Of the above teams, the Mariners, Tigers, Rays and Rangers are expected to compete for their division crowns. And our DH platoon could realistically outperform them.

Daver,

The American League has a spot in the line up specifically for a player that does nothing but hit, [Cleveland, KC, Tampa, Texas, and Seattle] have chosen to fill this spot with guys that don't hit all that well on any given day, as opposed to signing a legitimate hitter to do it.

Daver
02-21-2010, 07:09 PM
Daver,

The American League has a spot in the line up specifically for a player that does nothing but hit, [Cleveland, KC, Tampa, Texas, and Seattle] have chosen to fill this spot with guys that don't hit all that well on any given day, as opposed to signing a legitimate hitter to do it.

I really don't give a rat's ass what teams not named the White Sox do.

I know that the combination of great starting pitching, and anemic offense and defense is not a recipe for success.

jabrch
02-21-2010, 07:38 PM
Now come on now, The Yanks can start Gardner because they Have Jeter Arod Texeria etc. The Redsox offense is loaded, the Twins have one of the top offenses in baseball. The truth is the Yanks Red Sox Twins all have atleast 2 players who on any given year will finish in the top 10 of MVP voting, and most in the top 5. Do all teams have holes? Yes. Do any of the real contenders have holes like the Sox? The Twins rotation, but do you consider them real contenders?

To begin with, I'd take our rotation over any of those. We don't need to score as many runs as they do. And second, we only need to win more games Minny/Det/Cleve/KC. We are a more complete team than those teams are for sure.

The point is that one flaw on this team puts us in a better position than any of our direct competition.

Jones, Kotsay Thome, Damon, whomever was in this spot - we'd still be a competitor, but not a lock. With 6mm+ to spend, who knows who ends up (and when) in that spot...

The team is not perfect. But it isn't nearly the train wreck that some people are making it sound like.

Domeshot17
02-21-2010, 08:00 PM
To begin with, I'd take our rotation over any of those. We don't need to score as many runs as they do. And second, we only need to win more games Minny/Det/Cleve/KC. We are a more complete team than those teams are for sure.

The point is that one flaw on this team puts us in a better position than any of our direct competition.

Jones, Kotsay Thome, Damon, whomever was in this spot - we'd still be a competitor, but not a lock. With 6mm+ to spend, who knows who ends up (and when) in that spot...

The team is not perfect. But it isn't nearly the train wreck that some people are making it sound like.

The Twins surely. The Yankees probably (although their roster as a whole is so much better than anyone elses it makes up for it).

The Red Sox, their rotation is on its own planet. Beckett Lester Lackey are also bonafide ace starters. Wakefield is a wild card but a crapshoot, Bucholz is just as good a prospect as anyone and Dice K is the best number 5 in the league.

You can argue Peavy is better than Lackey, real toss up their can go either way (Peavy more consistent seasons but has fallen apart in small samplings of playoffs, Beckett as clutch as it gets in the playoffs). Boston has also maybe the best defensive team in the league, pending the reports that pedroia actually looks tremendous in his transition, that has yet to be seen.

jabrch
02-21-2010, 08:02 PM
The Twins surely. The Yankees probably (although their roster as a whole is so much better than anyone elses it makes up for it).

The Red Sox, their rotation is on its own planet. Beckett Lester Lackey are also bonafide ace starters. Wakefield is a wild card but a crapshoot, Bucholz is just as good a prospect as anyone and Dice K is the best number 5 in the league.

You can argue Peavy is better than Lackey, real toss up their can go either way (Peavy more consistent seasons but has fallen apart in small samplings of playoffs, Beckett as clutch as it gets in the playoffs). Boston has also maybe the best defensive team in the league, pending the reports that pedroia actually looks tremendous in his transition, that has yet to be seen.

If the result is that the Red Sox are better than us, but we are the next best team in baseball, I will be just fine.

Frater Perdurabo
02-21-2010, 08:17 PM
The fact of the matter is that the DH situation is a bit more complex than "the three-headed monster of Jones, Kotsay and Vizquel."

Kotsay, Jones and Vizquel all are good defensive players and ought/need to be used to give the starting position players - who are better hitters - "rest" by DH-ing. I support using Jones as part of a DH rotation, but not Kotsay or Vizquel.

Quentin, PK, Beckham, Rios, Jones, Teahen, Pierre and even AJ should get DH starts before Kotsay or Vizquel do.

Corlose 15
02-21-2010, 08:26 PM
The Twins surely. The Yankees probably (although their roster as a whole is so much better than anyone elses it makes up for it).

The Red Sox, their rotation is on its own planet. Beckett Lester Lackey are also bonafide ace starters. Wakefield is a wild card but a crapshoot, Bucholz is just as good a prospect as anyone and Dice K is the best number 5 in the league.

You can argue Peavy is better than Lackey, real toss up their can go either way (Peavy more consistent seasons but has fallen apart in small samplings of playoffs, Beckett as clutch as it gets in the playoffs). Boston has also maybe the best defensive team in the league, pending the reports that pedroia actually looks tremendous in his transition, that has yet to be seen.

Peavy and Lackey isn't a toss up. Peavy's stats are bettter across the board. John Lackey's stats are closer to Buehrle's than they are to Peavy's and Lackey hasn't pitched 200IP since 2007.

asindc
02-21-2010, 08:30 PM
I really don't give a rat's ass what teams not named the White Sox do.

I know that the combination of great starting pitching, and anemic offense and defense is not a recipe for success.

I care what other teams do because it establishes how good they are relative to the Sox. We could be, in theory, much worse at every position this year as compared to last as long as our competitors are even worse than we are when the games are finally played. Count me among the many who have disagreed with you about our defense. It will be better. I also think our offense will be better. At any rate, I prefer our roster to anyone else's in the division.

Thatguyoverthere
02-21-2010, 08:37 PM
The Twins surely. The Yankees probably (although their roster as a whole is so much better than anyone elses it makes up for it).

The Red Sox, their rotation is on its own planet. Beckett Lester Lackey are also bonafide ace starters. Wakefield is a wild card but a crapshoot, Bucholz is just as good a prospect as anyone and Dice K is the best number 5 in the league.

You can argue Peavy is better than Lackey, real toss up their can go either way (Peavy more consistent seasons but has fallen apart in small samplings of playoffs, Beckett as clutch as it gets in the playoffs). Boston has also maybe the best defensive team in the league, pending the reports that pedroia actually looks tremendous in his transition, that has yet to be seen.Buehrle is better than Lackey - look at the stats. Peavy is better than anybody in that rotation, though Lester is very very good. If Dice-K is healthy, I'll take their rotation, but if not it's pretty much a toss-up, with the edge going to the White Sox IMO because our guys are more likely to stay healthy.

Daver
02-21-2010, 08:52 PM
I care what other teams do because it establishes how good they are relative to the Sox. We could be, in theory, much worse at every position this year as compared to last as long as our competitors are even worse than we are when the games are finally played. Count me among the many who have disagreed with you about our defense. It will be better. I also think our offense will be better. At any rate, I prefer our roster to anyone else's in the division.

Everyone disagrees with me about defense, yet no one has pointed out where it has been improved aside from speculating it will be better based on nothing. Even if it is slightly improved, it was one of the worst in all of MLB last year, and still is. Not good for a team that plays in a hitters park and has a few groundball pitchers in the rotation and a questionable bullpen, I just hope the ground balls that get out of the infield go to center.

asindc
02-21-2010, 09:11 PM
Everyone disagrees with me about defense, yet no one has pointed out where it has been improved aside from speculating it will be better based on nothing. Even if it is slightly improved, it was one of the worst in all of MLB last year, and still is. Not good for a team that plays in a hitters park and has a few groundball pitchers in the rotation and a questionable bullpen, I just hope the ground balls that get out of the infield go to center.

What is your speculation based on?

Daver
02-21-2010, 09:21 PM
What is your speculation based on?

Video mostly, the stuff of Beckham in college is what caused most of my concerns of moving him from 3rd to 2nd, watching Teahen from the three years worth I have of the Sox playing the Royals tells volumes about his abilities, the same can be said for Carlos. Pierre has a body of work that is easily attained and completely unimpressive, Alexei does as well though the body of work is far smaller, I actually expect him to improve.

Evaluating talent isn't exactly rocket surgery.

asindc
02-21-2010, 09:35 PM
Video mostly, the stuff of Beckham in college is what caused most of my concerns of moving him from 3rd to 2nd, watching Teahen from the three years worth I have of the Sox playing the Royals tells volumes about his abilities, the same can be said for Carlos. Pierre has a body of work that is easily attained and completely unimpressive, Alexei does as well though the body of work is far smaller, I actually expect him to improve.

Evaluating talent isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Well, my speculation is based on the following, having watched all the players involved:



2010 Starting rotation>2009 Starting rotation. Replacing Contreras' and Colon's defense with Peavy's and Garcia's is a net gain.

AJ=AJ. Probably our most consistent player.

Pauly=Pauly.

Beckham>Getz/Nix. Beckham's adaptation to 3B indicates that he will adjust well to 2B.

Teahan=>Fields/Beckham. We only had decent 3B play in the last quarter of the season when Beckham finally settled in.

Alexei=>Alexei. TCM settled in at SS late in the season and his problems are mostly concentration, anyway.

Pierre>Pods. Has similar arm to Pods, but is better defensively in every other way.

Rios>Wise/Anderson. If BA had batted well enough to secure the starting CF job, his superior defense over Rios would have made this a defense net loss. However, if BA had hit that well in the first place, Rios would not be here.

Quentin>Dye. TCQ is an average defensive OF moving back to his natural position to replace one of the worst OFs in all of baseball. Definite upgrade.

2010 Bench>2009 Bench. Replacing Betemit with Kotsay alone makes this an upgrade.

Noneck
02-21-2010, 09:38 PM
Everyone disagrees with me about defense, yet no one has pointed out where it has been improved aside from speculating it will be better based on nothing. Even if it is slightly improved, it was one of the worst in all of MLB last year, and still is. Not good for a team that plays in a hitters park and has a few groundball pitchers in the rotation and a questionable bullpen, I just hope the ground balls that get out of the infield go to center.

I agree with you. I grew up in the 60's, where the Sox excelled with pitching and defense. They have the pitching now and I wish they went for the defense also. But that isnt sexy these days.

Frater Perdurabo
02-21-2010, 09:44 PM
Evaluating talent isn't exactly rocket surgery.

And anyone with even just one functioning eye can tell that Pierre is a better fielder than Pods, and that Rios is a better fielder than Wise (who Ozzie preferred to play over BA in CF). In addition, Jones is a better fielder than Dye, and Jones will be in RF often because Quentin will DH frequently (unless Ozzie is a complete idiot). Therefore, it seems to me that OF defense will be improved over last year, especially when Jones is playing RF. When Quentin is in in RF, the OF defense is still improved over 2009.

Daver
02-21-2010, 09:44 PM
Well, my speculation is based on the following, having watched all the players involved:



2010 Starting rotation>2009 Starting rotation. Replacing Contreras' and Colon's defense with Peavy's and Garcia's is a net gain.

AJ=AJ. Probably our most consistent player.

Pauly=Pauly.

Beckham>Getz/Nix. Beckham's adaptation to 3B indicates that he will adjust well to 2B.

Teahan=>Fields/Beckham. We only had decent 3B play in the last quarter of the season when Beckham finally settled in.

Alexei=>Alexei. TCM settled in at SS late in the season and his problems are mostly concentration, anyway.

Pierre>Pods. Has similar arm to Pods, but is better defensively in every other way.

Rios>Wise/Anderson. If BA had batted well enough to secure the starting CF job, his superior defense over Rios would have made this a defense net loss. However, if BA had hit that well in the first place, Rios would not be here.

Quentin>Dye. TCQ is an average defensive OF moving back to his natural position to replace one of the worst OFs in all of baseball. Definite upgrade.

2010 Bench>2009 Bench. Replacing Betemit with Kotsay alone makes this an upgrade.

I think your speculation is biased by optimism.

But what the hell do I know?

asindc
02-21-2010, 10:07 PM
I think your speculation is biased by optimism.

But what the hell do I know?

I think your speculation is biased by pessimism. Neither one of us knows yet how this will play out.

Lip Man 1
02-21-2010, 10:27 PM
In a story now on the Tribune's web site, Kenny Williams is quoted by Mark Gonzales as saying, "if the DH situation doesn't work out, we'll make an adjustment."

I conclude from that, that Kenny will get what he needs when he can and basically tell Ozzie to go back to one individual DH'ing.

He's also quoted as saying he thought hard about bringing Dye back, but the Sox need a left handed hitter and if he brought him back, Ozzie would be obligated to play him.

To me Kenny clearly isn't comfortable with what Ozzie wants to do but is giving him the space needed to try it out. We'll see if Kenny is also giving Ozzie the rope to hang himself with.

Lip

DumpJerry
02-21-2010, 10:47 PM
I think your speculation is biased by pessimism. Neither one of us knows yet how this will play out.
I know how it will play out, but I have been sworn to secrecy.

LoveYourSuit
02-21-2010, 10:57 PM
I care what other teams do because it establishes how good they are relative to the Sox. We could be, in theory, much worse at every position this year as compared to last as long as our competitors are even worse than we are when the games are finally played. Count me among the many who have disagreed with you about our defense. It will be better. I also think our offense will be better. At any rate, I prefer our roster to anyone else's in the division.


This is comical.

Sounds like that Murph Show sound bite something like "The Cubs don't have to get better, the competition just has to get a litte bit worse."


Makes me very proud that some of our fans think this way :rolleyes:

asindc
02-21-2010, 10:58 PM
This is comical.

Sounds like that Murph Show sound bite something like "The Cubs don't have to get better, the competition just has to get a litte bit worse."


Makes me very proud that some of our fans think this way :rolleyes:

You have missed my point.

WhiteSox5187
02-21-2010, 10:59 PM
Video mostly, the stuff of Beckham in college is what caused most of my concerns of moving him from 3rd to 2nd, watching Teahen from the three years worth I have of the Sox playing the Royals tells volumes about his abilities, the same can be said for Carlos. Pierre has a body of work that is easily attained and completely unimpressive, Alexei does as well though the body of work is far smaller, I actually expect him to improve.

Evaluating talent isn't exactly rocket surgery.

If it's as easy as you make it out to be, why the hell are there so many bad teams? How come so many "can't miss" prospects fail?

The only people I know in baseball...well, the people my dad knows in baseball (I know no one) all think that Beckham will do very well at second and were more wary of him at third.

jabrch
02-22-2010, 01:05 AM
We'll see if Kenny is also giving Ozzie the rope to hang himself with.

Does this sound like how these two operate historically? If it is happening now, it is a new relationship between these two - and one that is not healthy.

Domeshot17
02-22-2010, 01:14 AM
Sorry guys I didn't mean to compare Lackey and Peavy, I meant Beckett. Peavy could be much better than Beckett. As I have said, Peavy has a better regular season track record. Beckett has the superior playoff record.

I guess that is ultimately my problem with the offense. We have an A++++ Rotation, the 2nd best in baseball. But our offense is bottom 10, and our defense is bottom half (although, close to mid not near the bottom, very average).

Its like we are this team teeting on the edge between greatness and being completely average, and instead of pushing the team over the edge of greatness, we seem content to see if it can get itself over without any help.

jabrch
02-22-2010, 01:21 AM
But our offense is bottom 10


Really?

Balt
Tor
Cle
KC
Det (even with Damon)
Oak
Was
NYM
Atl
Pit
Hou
Cin
Mil
AZ
SD
SF

There's not a team on that list that is a lock to be better than us offensively.

guillen4life13
02-22-2010, 01:53 AM
Really?

Balt
Tor
Cle
KC
Det (even with Damon)
Oak
Was
NYM
Atl
Pit
Hou
Cin
Mil
AZ
SD
SF

There's not a team on that list that is a lock to be better than us offensively.

If there's one thing I've realized in 2010 at WSI, it's that logic should never, ever get in the way of an argument. This thread alone proves the point.

And we can even discount the NL teams because, knock on wood, if the Sox make the WS, they'd have made it by competing against the rest of the AL.

So, by your post, all you need to say is that the Sox may have a middle of the road offense but stellar pitching.

I think that history has shown that playoff success is a direct function of which team is hot and which isn't. If this weren't the case, the Cards and Sox wouldn't have won WS titles over the past decade.

I'll use my BB gun to hunt and eat crow come October if the Sox don't win at least 89 games this coming season (and it can be, in large part, blamed on the lack of production from the Kotsay/Jones tandem). I fully expect at least 90, if not 95+ wins.

And it's really fickle how the phrase that rhymes with "look it" has been programmed to rewrite something else, even if it isn't meant in the same exact manner.

And I'll also eat crow if Kotsay and Jones don't combine for 80 or more RBI.

doublem23
02-22-2010, 03:18 AM
Video mostly, the stuff of Beckham in college is what caused most of my concerns of moving him from 3rd to 2nd, watching Teahen from the three years worth I have of the Sox playing the Royals tells volumes about his abilities, the same can be said for Carlos. Pierre has a body of work that is easily attained and completely unimpressive, Alexei does as well though the body of work is far smaller, I actually expect him to improve.

Evaluating talent isn't exactly rocket surgery.

:rolling:

Are you serious? If you're watching the last 3 years of Teahen @ 3B vs. the Sox then you have a grand total of TEN games of film of him at third. What "volumes" can you get from ten games? That is utter nonsense.

Bacon's tapes from college? What do you have every game the Bulldogs played during his career, and, color me crazy, but I'm going to say that the way a guy played as a raw, 18-year-old less than 1 year removed from high school isn't exactly scientific evidence indicative of how he will perform in the Majors after years of coaching.

This is just silly. Your opinion is based is based on as little as anyone else's here. Maybe less, at least most of us aren't pretending to be "in the know" because we've reviewed less than 1.5% of Mark Teahen's Major League career.

doublem23
02-22-2010, 06:34 AM
Really?

Balt
Tor
Cle
KC
Det (even with Damon)
Oak
Was
NYM
Atl
Pit
Hou
Cin
Mil
AZ
SD
SF

There's not a team on that list that is a lock to be better than us offensively.

The fact that you have to bring up the Nationals and Pirates as defense of our offense speaks volumes as to how woeful our situation is. You think Yankee fans or Twins are bothering to see how they can peg their team against the lower 1/2 of Major League Baseball?

BTW, if 1-2 things somehow go wrong for the Sox, there aren't many teams on that list we're a lock to be better than, too.

jabrch
02-22-2010, 08:12 AM
The fact that you have to bring up the Nationals and Pirates as defense of our offense speaks volumes as to how woeful our situation is.

That's ridiculous Dubs. He said we are bottom 10. How do I not bring them up? They ARE bottom 10.


You think Yankee fans or Twins are bothering to see how they can peg their team against the lower 1/2 of Major League Baseball?

That's not at all what we are doing - and you ****ing know it. That's a crappy post Dubs. The other poster said we were bottom 10. I listed 15 teams worse than us. How the hell am I pegging the team against the lower half? I'm answering someone else who did.


BTW, if 1-2 things somehow go wrong for the Sox, there aren't many teams on that list we're a lock to be better than, too.

The same can be said of the Twins and the Yanks Dubs....and probably any other team in baseball.

russ99
02-22-2010, 08:22 AM
I can't believe such doom and gloom around here about our offense.

Some of you think the offense is going to suck, and thought Johnny Damon of all people as the "savior" that could make a bad offense turn good. If we're as bad as you say, Damon would change nothing.

But that's your opinion.

My opinion is that the offense is going to be fine regardless as to what we get out of the DH at the 7-8 spot in the order. I'm looking forward to exciting aggressive "score lots of runs in many ways" baseball and less waiting around for the 3-run HR.

Thome25
02-22-2010, 09:06 AM
The Good Offense VS Bad Offense argument is getting as epic, ludicrous, and asinine as any I've ever seen at WSI.

The bottom line is, our offense isn't as bad as posters around here are making it out to be. We'll be fine......if everything goes right, this team will have shades of the 2005 pitching first, scratch out runs any way you can mentality.

We don't need to score 15 runs a game. With our pitching, 1-0, 2-1, 3-1 games will be just fine. And if that doesn't work you can bet everything you have that KW will go out and get some players that will help our offense.

Breathe and relax people!!:D: The season hasn't even started. Let's wait and see what happens before we panic.

LoveYourSuit
02-22-2010, 10:34 AM
The Good Offense VS Bad Offense argument is getting as epic, ludicrous, and asinine as any I've ever seen at WSI.

The bottom line is, our offense isn't as bad as posters around here are making it out to be. We'll be fine......if everything goes right, this team will have shades of the 2005 pitching first, scratch out runs any way you can mentality.

We don't need to score 15 runs a game. With our pitching, 1-0, 2-1, 3-1 games will be just fine. And if that doesn't work you can bet everything you have that KW will go out and get some players that will help our offense.

Breathe and relax people!!:D: The season hasn't even started. Let's wait and see what happens before we panic.


It's not going to awful, but I demand greatness as a fan of my ball club. Especially with the potential of the pitching staff, this half ass attempt to put a good offensive ball club together makes me very upset.


The Sox are banking on Quentin, Rios, & Jones to be healthy and very damn good this year. That's a very risky proposition.

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 10:43 AM
It's not going to awful, but I demand greatness as a fan of my ball club. Especially with the potential of the pitching staff, this half ass attempt to put a good offensive ball club together makes me very upset.


The Sox are banking on Quentin, Rios, & Jones to be healthy and very damn good this year. That's a very risky proposition.

Aside from Jones what would you suggest the Sox do about the other two? Should they be investing even more money in CF?

In your opinion how much higher does the budget need to go to guarantee a "good" offense? Was Damon alone enough to do that?

beasly213
02-22-2010, 10:52 AM
I'm not happy about our DH situation either but if Damon was such the savior that everyone here has made him out to be...then why were the Sox and the Tigers the only ones seriously interested in him?

I think a lot of GMs saw his numbers and how much Yankee stadium helped him and decided he wasn't worth it.

Damon is a good player but him not being on the team wont be the reason the Sox don't win the World Series.

LoveYourSuit
02-22-2010, 11:00 AM
Aside from Jones what would you suggest the Sox do about the other two? Should they be investing even more money in CF?

In your opinion how much higher does the budget need to go to guarantee a "good" offense? Was Damon alone enough to do that?

Well, this Rios acquisition has handcuffed this club.

So nothing you can do there.

Matsui was the guy to get, he IMO would have put this club over the top. Damon would not have been a bad plan B, especially looking at the current plan in place.


Or even looking at a trade scenario. Yes you would unload even more prospects, you have a chance to go for it all this year.

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 11:18 AM
Well, this Rios acquisition has handcuffed this club.

So nothing you can do there.

Matsui was the guy to get, he IMO would have put this club over the top. Damon would not have been a bad plan B, especially looking at the current plan in place.


Or even looking at a trade scenario. Yes you would unload even more prospects, you have a chance to go for it all this year.

Okay, so again, how many more players do they need to guarantee a good offense?

doublem23
02-22-2010, 11:22 AM
Damon is a good player but him not being on the team wont be the reason the Sox don't win the World Series.

That's great, so our fallback is a guy who couldn't hit last year in Texas, probably the #1 hitter's park in the American League and #2 in all of baseball behind Coors Field.

Every AB we give him is a waste.

beasly213
02-22-2010, 11:25 AM
That's great, so our fallback is a guy who couldn't hit last year in Texas, probably the #1 hitter's park in the American League and #2 in all of baseball behind Coors Field.

Every AB we give him is a waste.


Wow....
:darkclouds:


Spring training has barely started and yet we are already saying every at bat for our DH position is an out. :rolleyes:

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 11:27 AM
That's great, so our fallback is a guy who couldn't hit last year in Texas, probably the #1 hitter's park in the American League and #2 in all of baseball behind Coors Field.

Every AB we give him is a waste.

Actually, he posted a .870 OPS in the first half last year. Now the question is can he bring something like that production to Chicago and stay healthy?

LoveYourSuit
02-22-2010, 11:40 AM
Okay, so again, how many more players do they need to guarantee a good offense?


One.


A middle of the order RBI producer, LH bat.

guillen4life13
02-22-2010, 11:41 AM
Actually, he posted a .870 OPS in the first half last year. Now the question is can he bring something like that production to Chicago and stay healthy?

According to Mark Gonzales, Jones reported to camp at 221 lbs. That's 25 (!!) pounds lighter than last year and 19 lbs below his listed weight.

That to me is very encouraging.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/02/guillen-on-reality-show-life-without-damon.html

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 11:45 AM
One.


A middle of the order RBI producer, LH bat.

But without that bat our offense is so weak it should be heartily laughed at?

LoveYourSuit
02-22-2010, 11:54 AM
But without that bat our offense is so weak it should be heartily laughed at?


I agreed with the other poster that our offense is not as bad as people are making it out to be. But it's not looking good right now, average at best.


That one hitter missing in the middle is the difference from being an average offense to one which can be very good and well balanced.

Domeshot17
02-22-2010, 12:45 PM
According to Mark Gonzales, Jones reported to camp at 221 lbs. That's 25 (!!) pounds lighter than last year and 19 lbs below his listed weight.

That to me is very encouraging.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/02/guillen-on-reality-show-life-without-damon.html

hopefully he can find it again. I guess itd be a best case scenerio if he found what used to make him an above average ball player. I guess Sox fans have just had too many players who show up in amazing new shape never work out, so for me its hard to be anything more than cautiously optimistic, although I will admit, I am pessimistic about Jones.

asindc
02-22-2010, 12:50 PM
hopefully he can find it again. I guess itd be a best case scenerio if he found what used to make him an above average ball player. I guess Sox fans have just had too many players who show up in amazing new shape never work out, so for me its hard to be anything more than cautiously optimistic, although I will admit, I am pessimistic about Jones.

I think the fact that he has lost this weight is a good sign that he has changed his approach to the game from the past three years. That alone is an encouraging sign to me. Of course, if he spends ST nights wolfing down cheese fries with Jenks and downing shots with Freddy,...

fox23
02-22-2010, 01:08 PM
hopefully he can find it again. I guess itd be a best case scenerio if he found what used to make him an above average ball player.

What used to make him an above average ball player is now banned by MLB.

Hitmen77
02-22-2010, 01:09 PM
Really?

Balt
Tor
Cle
KC
Det (even with Damon)
Oak
Was
NYM
Atl
Pit
Hou
Cin
Mil
AZ
SD
SF

There's not a team on that list that is a lock to be better than us offensively.

I'm not saying our offense is terrible, but that's a lot of NL teams on your list. Of the 6 AL teams listed, it doesn't give me much comfort that we're better than lousy teams like KC and Cleveland.

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 01:10 PM
What used to make him an above average ball player is now banned by MLB.

He says with assurance having no idea if he's correct or not...

thedudeabides
02-22-2010, 01:12 PM
Well, this Rios acquisition has handcuffed this club.

So nothing you can do there.

Matsui was the guy to get, he IMO would have put this club over the top. Damon would not have been a bad plan B, especially looking at the current plan in place.


Or even looking at a trade scenario. Yes you would unload even more prospects, you have a chance to go for it all this year.

I know you keep saying this over and over, but you can't make a player come here.

Everything I have heard or read was that the Sox were interested but he wasn't. He was wither playing for the Yankees or going to the west coast.

pythons007
02-22-2010, 01:15 PM
Not sure if this has been posted, but the 5 thread saga can end. Damon is now a Tiger.....
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4935454

We can now go back to how feeble our offense is and how Andruw Jones is a fat loser....

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 01:16 PM
I'm not saying our offense is terrible, but that's a lot of NL teams on your list. Of the 6 AL teams listed, it doesn't give me much comfort that we're better than lousy teams like KC and Cleveland.

Well is average offense and spectacular pitching enough to win the WS?

2005 says yes.

The Sox were 13th in MLB in runs scored that year, 9th in the AL and 8th in the AL in OPS.

Meanwhile they were 2nd in ERA and 3rd in RA that same year in the AL.

I'm not trying to get into a discussion of how great 2005 was and thus we should all be happy, merely pointing out that the system worked once for the Sox.

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 01:17 PM
Not sure if this has been posted, but the 5 thread saga can end. Damon is now a Tiger.....
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4935454

We can now go back to how feeble our offense is and how Andruw Jones is a fat loser....

Yeah, that's what the discussion has been centering on for several pages including all of the current thread.

GoGoCrede
02-22-2010, 01:17 PM
Not sure if this has been posted, but the 5 thread saga can end. Damon is now a Tiger.....
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4935454

We can now go back to how feeble our offense is and how Andruw Jones is a fat loser....

There are pics of him arriving at camp, all smiles. Blech.

Now that that's over with, we can get down to the business of baseball. Damon is going to be booed all season by us when we play him, I bet.

spawn
02-22-2010, 01:17 PM
What used to make him an above average ball player is now banned by MLB.

He says with assurance having no idea if he's correct or not...
I love when people make these accusations as if they were established facts without having any proof whatsoever to back them up.

pythons007
02-22-2010, 01:19 PM
Yeah, that's what the discussion has been centering on for several pages including all of the current thread.

My fault, I was current until midway through thread 4, I wasn't about to read anymore on that.

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 01:27 PM
My fault, I was current until midway through thread 4, I wasn't about to read anymore on that.

No biggie...:tongue:

beasly213
02-22-2010, 01:35 PM
I love when people make these accusations as if they were established facts without having any proof whatsoever to back them up.


The steroid era has given fans the right to question any major league baseball player in regards to this issue.

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 01:44 PM
The steroid era has given fans the right to question any major league baseball player in regards to this issue.

Question, sure, state with assurance that so and so definitely used is pushing it.

spawn
02-22-2010, 02:24 PM
The steroid era has given fans the right to question any major league baseball player in regards to this issue.

Question, sure, state with assurance that so and so definitely used is pushing it.
Exactly Voodoo. I have no problem with someone saying they have a feeling that so and so was using, or it's my opinion this player was using. To state it as a fact with nothing to back it up us is just wrong IMO.

#1swisher
02-22-2010, 02:43 PM
KW comments on Damon "Had I known he wanted to train in Florida, we would have moved camp out to Orlando to accommodate him"


http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2062246,CST-SPT-soxnt22.article

Rohan
02-22-2010, 02:51 PM
KW comments on Damon "Had I known he wanted to train in Florida, we would have moved camp out to Orlando to accommodate him"


http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2062246,CST-SPT-soxnt22.article

That strikes me as sarcasm...

fox23
02-22-2010, 02:52 PM
Exactly Voodoo. I have no problem with someone saying they have a feeling that so and so was using, or it's my opinion this player was using. To state it as a fact with nothing to back it up us is just wrong IMO.

Okay, my apologies then. I am very assured that he did use steroids. That is my opinion. No, I do not know that for a fact.

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 03:27 PM
Okay, my apologies then. I am very assured that he did use steroids. That is my opinion. No, I do not know that for a fact.

The question is why are you so assured on this fact?

He hit the most HR of his career in 2005 and followed it up with 41 in 2006. He even hit 26 in 2007 and 17 last year in 281 AB. His one sole horrible season was in 2008 when he apparently struggled with injuries all year long and admits he got complacent, but aside from that year, his power numbers have remained solid if unspectacular once he started to decline.

Now since steroid testing began in 2004, it's kind of odd to claim Jones was using considering his HR totals actually jumped dramatically after testing started. That also happens to correspond with the heart of most player's normal peak years when he was 28 and 29 years old.

So I ask again, why are you so assured he is a user, gut instinct or is it something more, because simply looking at the stats, it seems to be the exact opposite.

jabrch
02-22-2010, 03:35 PM
I'm not saying our offense is terrible, but that's a lot of NL teams on your list. Of the 6 AL teams listed, it doesn't give me much comfort that we're better than lousy teams like KC and Cleveland.


I just responded to what the other poster said...

guillen4life13
02-22-2010, 04:05 PM
That strikes me as sarcasm...

But, from the quotes and articles, it seems like Spring Training being in Florida was a huge priority for Johnny Damon and his family. Honestly, I can't blame him. I don't have kids, but when I do, I'm going to want to be around them as much as possible. Ballplayers are faced with the burden of being on the road for over 81 days every regular season.

Add in ST, and you're looking at an additional month and a half. That's no small amount of time.

In any case, I don't fault KW for not being able to get Damon or Matsui here.

Lip Man 1
02-22-2010, 04:23 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/02/damon-dont-blame-aj.html

Lip

doublem23
02-22-2010, 04:59 PM
I love when people make these accusations as if they were established facts without having any proof whatsoever to back them up.

Fine, but whatever the case may be as soon as MLB started taking steroid testing seriously, Jones' production fell off a cliff.

If any other team in the division was honestly planning on giving him significant at bats this year, they would be the laughingstock of these boards.

Steroids or not, Andruw Jones sucks at baseball.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-22-2010, 05:01 PM
I'm surprised more of you aren't sports writers and GMs. The baseball knowledge here is spectacular.

doublem23
02-22-2010, 05:04 PM
I'm surprised more of you aren't sports writers and GMs. The baseball knowledge here is spectacular.

Well, at least we know why you're not a stand up comic.

How smart do you got to be to figure this out: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesan01.shtml

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 05:09 PM
Fine, but whatever the case may be as soon as MLB started taking steroid testing seriously, Jones' production fell off a cliff.

If any other team in the division was honestly planning on giving him significant at bats this year, they would be the laughingstock of these boards.

Steroids or not, Andruw Jones sucks at baseball.

His two biggest HR totals came after they started testing, 2005 and 2006.

Do some research or at least finish reading the thread. I already posted that fact.

guillen4life13
02-22-2010, 05:12 PM
Well, at least we know why you're not a stand up comic.

How smart do you got to be to figure this out: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesan01.shtml

It's no longer even worth discussing it with you because the evidence you cite is the exact same evidence I've used in my analysis. You're just so pessimistic about the whole situation and willing to call someone out for steroid use when Voodoo just explained that in a rational manner, and when I have given numerical evidence (using nothing more complicated than mean and weighted averages) showing that, if Kotsay performs at a similar level to the past two years, and Jones performs at 2007/2009 levels, the DH slot should give at least 20 HR and 80 RBI. Given that these guys are going to get more AB's against opposite handed pitchers, the 20 HR 80 RBI prediction is actually very conservative, and 90+ RBI is a realistic possibility.

But hey, it's not like logic should ever get in the way of a stupid argument, right?

If you're going to question someone else's intelligence, you'd want to make damn sure you do it in a way that doesn't make others want to question your intelligence.

asindc
02-22-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm just glad we are not going to be giving significant ABs to the following players:

Brendon Harris
Delmon Young
Gerald Laird
Adam Everett
Carlos Guillen
Travis Hafner
Kelly Shoppach
Andy Marte
Jamey Carroll
Brayan Pena
Josh Fields

If that was going to be the case, our AL Central competitors would probably be laughing at us.

doublem23
02-22-2010, 05:18 PM
His two biggest HR totals came after they started testing, 2005 and 2006.

Do some research or at least finish reading the thread. I already posted that fact.

The current testing standards didn't go into effect until the 2006 season.

doublem23
02-22-2010, 05:21 PM
It's no longer even worth discussing it with you because the evidence you cite is the exact same evidence I've used in my analysis. You're just so pessimistic about the whole situation and willing to call someone out for steroid use when Voodoo just explained that in a rational manner, and when I have given numerical evidence (using nothing more complicated than mean and weighted averages) showing that, if Kotsay performs at a similar level to the past two years, and Jones performs at 2007/2009 levels, the DH slot should give at least 20 HR and 80 RBI. Given that these guys are going to get more AB's against opposite handed pitchers, the 20 HR 80 RBI prediction is actually very conservative, and 90+ RBI is a realistic possibility.

But hey, it's not like logic should ever get in the way of a stupid argument, right?

If you're going to question someone else's intelligence, you'd want to make damn sure you do it in a way that doesn't make others want to question your intelligence.

Andruw Jones 2008 & 2009.

157 G - .190/.295/.369

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Make up all the bull**** you want, this guy shouldn't be in AAA.

jabrch
02-22-2010, 05:21 PM
I'm just glad we are not going to be giving significant ABs to the following players:

Brendon Harris
Delmon Young
Gerald Laird
Adam Everett
Carlos Guillen
Travis Hafner
Kelly Shoppach
Andy Marte
Jamey Carroll
Brayan Pena
Josh Fields

If that was going to be the case, our AL Central competitors would probably be laughing at us.


I was going make virtually the same post. Thanks for saving me the time.

This team's offense is good enough to win this division as is. The pitching is the best in the division without competition, both in the rotation and the pen. I think our #3 and #4 would be the #2 for every team except Detroit, where they'd both be the #3. Our #5 would make all of the rotations also, probably as the #4 or better. Our #6 would likely be rushed in all of the rotations.

But our DH is a question - so it's all shot to hell... I have no idea why I dropped money on season tickets again.

voodoochile
02-22-2010, 05:23 PM
The current testing standards didn't go into effect until the 2006 season.

That's just the punishment aspects that have changed. In 2005 they were already handing out bans for testing positive.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/news/drug_policy.jsp?content=timeline

doublem23
02-22-2010, 05:25 PM
I was going make virtually the same post. Thanks for saving me the time.

This team's offense is good enough to win this division as is. The pitching is the best in the division without competition, both in the rotation and the pen. I think our #3 and #4 would be the #2 for every team except Detroit, where they'd both be the #3. Our #5 would make all of the rotations also, probably as the #4 or better. Our #6 would likely be rushed in all of the rotations.

But our DH is a question - so it's all shot to hell... I have no idea why I dropped money on season tickets again.

God, I am so tired of repeating myself. The DH is one of the major problems on this team, but yes, if EVERY SINGLE PLAYER ON THIS ROSTER plays 100% to their ceiling they can probably win 90ish games and sneak into the play-offs. There is no depth on this team at all. 1 or 2 things go wrong and we're ****. Remember 2007? That's what you're looking at, AAAA players starting all over the field, AAAA relievers all over the bullpen.

So yeah, Johnny Damon, Jim Thome, etc. were just 1 guy but they were quality depth so that you know, when things don't go 100% to plan, there are acceptable fallback plans.

Craig Grebeck
02-22-2010, 05:28 PM
It's not as though DH is the one problem on this team, it's that it's such an easy upgrade to make (right now -- or was, before everyone was snatched up) that the organization's obstinate attitude is spell-binding.

jabrch
02-22-2010, 05:37 PM
God, I am so tired of repeating myself. The DH is one of the major problems on this team, but yes, if EVERY SINGLE PLAYER ON THIS ROSTER plays 100% to their ceiling they can probably win 90ish games and sneak into the play-offs.

That is your opinion - one that I don't share. I don't believe we need perfection from every one of our players to "win 90ish games and sneak into the play-offs". I'm not sure who you think we are competing against.

There is no depth on this team at all. 1 or 2 things go wrong and we're ****. Remember 2007? That's what you're looking at, AAAA players starting all over the field, AAAA relievers all over the bullpen.

Welcome to baseball fandom. Nice to meet you Dubs. Short of Boston, NY and maybe one or two other teams, this is life in this game. If your choice is strength or depth, what do you want? Would you rather we not have gotten Jake Peavy and we used 9mm of his money to get Damon and 8mm to get some mediocre back of the rotation starter? I can't evision you being into that solution...my g-d - you bitching about how terrible it is to have Carlos Silva in our rotation would be intolerable. The world would be coming to a ****ing end Dubs...



So yeah, Johnny Damon, Jim Thome, etc. were just 1 guy but they were quality depth so that you know, when things don't go 100% to plan, there are acceptable fallback plans.

That's horsecrap. There is always guys of this calibre availalbe (Thome in particular, but Damon also) - and usually for cheap if you can take on salary or have prospects you are willing to trade.

NoNeckEra
02-22-2010, 05:39 PM
It's not as though DH is the one problem on this team, it's that it's such an easy upgrade to make (right now -- or was, before everyone was snatched up) that the organization's obstinate attitude is spell-binding.

I'm willing to give Ozzie the benefit of the doubt and give this rotation thing a chance. It gives Ozzie the chance to play the hot bat and to get more "situational" than being "stuck" with Thome or Damon, for instance against a tough lefty.

Since no one will "own" the position, I'm hoping one of the group will step up and "earn" the spot during the live audition.

asindc
02-22-2010, 05:46 PM
It's not as though DH is the one problem on this team, it's that it's such an easy upgrade to make (right now -- or was, before everyone was snatched up) that the organization's obstinate attitude is spell-binding.

But that's just it... they haven't been obstinate. They went after Matsui and Damon. Both decided to play elsewhere. They decided not to re-sign Thome because they don't believe he is an upgrade over what we have now. I understand that you disagree with them on Thome and on how much you might have been willing to pay Damon, but they have tried to improve the DH position. KW said yesterday that they will seek to improve it during the season if it becomes necessary. I don't see where they are being stubborn with this.

Craig Grebeck
02-22-2010, 05:47 PM
But that's just it... they haven't been obstinate. They went after Matsui and Damon. Both decided to play elsewhere. They decided not to re-sign Thome because they don't believe he is an upgrade over what we have now. I understand that you disagree with them on Thome and on how much you might have been willing to pay Damon, but they have tried to improve the DH position. KW said yesterday that they will seek to improve it during the season if it becomes necessary. I don't see where they are being stubborn with this.
There are a litany of quotes by no. 13 on this issue that show a hard-headed attitude.

I'm willing to give Ozzie the benefit of the doubt and give this rotation thing a chance. It gives Ozzie the chance to play the hot bat and to get more "situational" than being "stuck" with Thome or Damon, for instance against a tough lefty.How would they be stuck?

asindc
02-22-2010, 05:49 PM
There are a litany of quotes by no. 13 on this issue that show a hard-headed attitude.

How would they be stuck?

I won't disagree with that, but I think KW's attempts this offseason to upgrade from what we have now and his subsequent comments are more telling about what Sox management is willing and perhaps able to do to improve the DH slot.

Craig Grebeck
02-22-2010, 05:51 PM
I won't disagree with that, but I think KW's attempts this offseason to upgrade from what we have now and his subsequent comments are more telling about what Sox management is willing and perhaps able to do to improve the DH slot.
I would hope that KW will eventually tell Ozzie what is what.

kobo
02-22-2010, 06:05 PM
It's not as though DH is the one problem on this team, it's that it's such an easy upgrade to make (right now -- or was, before everyone was snatched up) that the organization's obstinate attitude is spell-binding.
This is not an organizational decison, at least I don't think it's organizational. This is Ozzie's idea, and right now KW and JR are backing him up. Ozzie wants flexibility, wants to be able to play matchups and not have to rely on one guy to fill the DH spot, especially a guy who has no other value to the team. Now, they are taking a big risk because no one has any idea how Jones, Rios, and Quentin are going to perform. My fear with Quentin is if he can stay healthy. Jones and Rios are the bigger question marks.

If Jones doesn't work out and the DH spot starts to become a problem there is no doubt in my mind that KW will not hesitate to bring someone in to fortify that spot. Argue all you want about doing it now instead of later, but this is the direction they are taking at this time. This seems to be Ozzie's plan, and KW is going to give some time to see how this all plays out.

NoNeckEra
02-22-2010, 06:16 PM
How would they be stuck?

"Stuck" with a Thome or Damon in the sense that they would be guys you just don't bench because they go "oh for 12".
Once you commit to Thome or Damon, that's it.
Now, Jones can go without a hit for a series, and you can bet he's going to grab some bench without hesitation by Ozzie.

TheBigHurtST
02-22-2010, 06:38 PM
Personally I'm glad we didn't sign Damon. I mean, he probably would have made a nice DH but that's the only position he could have possibly filled. I'm not sure what the Tigers had to pay to get him, but I couldn't see us overpaying to get him.

Noneck
02-22-2010, 06:39 PM
I would hope that KW will eventually tell Ozzie what is what.

Maybe he has but just wasn't given the resources to do what he wants to do.

Craig Grebeck
02-22-2010, 07:15 PM
"Stuck" with a Thome or Damon in the sense that they would be guys you just don't bench because they go "oh for 12".
Once you commit to Thome or Damon, that's it.
Now, Jones can go without a hit for a series, and you can bet he's going to grab some bench without hesitation by Ozzie.
You don't bench them because they are able-bodied major league hitters. I kinda think that supports the "sign a real player to DH" position.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-22-2010, 07:32 PM
Well, at least we know why you're not a stand up comic.

How smart do you got to be to figure this out: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesan01.shtmlNot sure how I was supposed to be funny... but whatever floats your boat.

All I see is a guy who can never hit for average and has sucked the past two years... There's more to baseball than stats, so I'm not counting Jones out. Am I expecting a 2007? No. But I'm not counting it out.

Brian26
02-22-2010, 08:37 PM
I'm surprised more of you aren't sports writers and GMs.

The money's not good enough.

The baseball knowledge here is spectacular.

If you're asking for another early season exit, that can be arranged.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-22-2010, 08:55 PM
The money's not good enough.
If you're asking for another early season exit, that can be arranged.I wasn't trying to start anything, I just thought it was funny how everyone knows more than each other. http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/1258/emotion16lgy.gif

JB98
02-22-2010, 08:58 PM
The money's not good enough.

True that. Is it any wonder the quality of sportswriting is so poor these days? Smart people go into other fields that pay better. If I had it to do over again, I'd become an accountant or something.

Back on topic, in this sportswriter's professional opinion, the Sox DH situation absolutely sucks. Fortunately, sportswriters are frequently wrong. Hopefully, Andruw Jones gives me a nice, big ****burger to eat. :D:

fox23
02-22-2010, 09:15 PM
The question is why are you so assured on this fact?

He hit the most HR of his career in 2005 and followed it up with 41 in 2006. He even hit 26 in 2007 and 17 last year in 281 AB. His one sole horrible season was in 2008 when he apparently struggled with injuries all year long and admits he got complacent, but aside from that year, his power numbers have remained solid if unspectacular once he started to decline.

Now since steroid testing began in 2004, it's kind of odd to claim Jones was using considering his HR totals actually jumped dramatically after testing started. That also happens to correspond with the heart of most player's normal peak years when he was 28 and 29 years old.

So I ask again, why are you so assured he is a user, gut instinct or is it something more, because simply looking at the stats, it seems to be the exact opposite.

Purely craptastic speculation on my part. I have no concrete evidence whatsoever, just my feeling.

This is based simply on the fact that he fell off the face of the earth so quickly. Seems that so many other sluggers have used something during that era, that a guy who fell apart so quickly at a relatively early age (not his mid 30s or something like that) would appear to be a candidate for using something. As for the testing, that still doesn't pick up things like HGH, so I suppose I'd have to rephrase to say performance enhancers rather than just steroids.

He's more a casualty of the era to me, where no one at all would surprise me to find out they used something.

DumpJerry
02-22-2010, 09:19 PM
I'm surprised more of you aren't sports writers and GMs.
How can you be so sure we aren't?

guillen4life13
02-22-2010, 10:23 PM
Andruw Jones 2008 & 2009.

157 G - .190/.295/.369

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Make up all the bull**** you want, this guy shouldn't be in AAA.

You conveniently disregard the fact that in 2008 Jones was plagued by injuries.

I'm not making up the bull****. You're just smelling a piece of cardboard but are so on edge that you think it's bull****. It's not. Bodies heal, and Jones' injuries aren't exactly prone to chronic aggravation. You're cherry picking statistics to support your pessimism and you're completely disregarding anything that goes against your current view, because anyone who disagrees must be stupid by definition.

Andruw Jones hit 17 HR with 43 RBI in only 331 plate appearances in 2009, with a .782 OPS. But that's just a pile of ****, right? Give me a ****ing break.

Andruw Jones from 2007-2009, adjusted to a 162 game average gives a sub .700 OPS, but still gives 24 HR, 28 2B, and 79 RBI. This includes one injury plagued year that heavily skews the stats in a negative manner. If that's how you're going to look at it, then the Sox should definitely re-sign Jermaine Dye because over 2008-2009 at 162 games, he would average a .843 OPS with 34 HR and 98 RBI.

Yet somehow Johnny Damon is the savior we've all been looking for?

guillen4life13
02-22-2010, 10:25 PM
Purely craptastic speculation on my part. I have no concrete evidence whatsoever, just my feeling.

This is based simply on the fact that he fell off the face of the earth so quickly. Seems that so many other sluggers have used something during that era, that a guy who fell apart so quickly at a relatively early age (not his mid 30s or something like that) would appear to be a candidate for using something. As for the testing, that still doesn't pick up things like HGH, so I suppose I'd have to rephrase to say performance enhancers rather than just steroids.

He's more a casualty of the era to me, where no one at all would surprise me to find out they used something.

Jose Contreras fell apart pretty damn quickly during the same time frame. So of course he juiced, according to your logic, right?

Craig Grebeck
02-22-2010, 10:26 PM
1. Pitchers and position players should never be compared on such narrow terms.
2. If you're using HR and RBI, the argument's not worth much.

Tragg
02-23-2010, 12:27 AM
This is not an organizational decison, at least I don't think it's organizational. This is Ozzie's idea, and right now KW and JR are backing him up. Ozzie wants flexibility, wants to be able to play matchups and not have to rely on one guy to fill the DH spot, especially a guy who has no other value to the team. Now, they are taking a big risk because no one has any idea how Jones, Rios, and Quentin are going to perform. This is a rerun.
Williams ceded the O personnel to Ozzie in 2007 and it produced baseball's worst offense. Williams is also repeating his penchant for using scarce budget dollars on over-paying utility level talent.
There is hope. Even though Guillen's clowning with the DH is particularly galling (as the DH is there for one reason- to hit;), I think the damage will be limited simply because the worst hitters on this roster are better than Ozzie faves of the past Owens, Erstad and Wise.

The key to this team will be its D-is it good enough to complement the stellar starting pitching and make the Sox absolute top 1-3 in run prevention in the AL.

spawn
02-23-2010, 01:04 PM
Damon wants to finish his career as a Tiger (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100223/SPORTS0104/2230323/1129/sports0104/Johnny-Damon--I-want-to-finish-my-career-as-a-Tiger)

I'd expect him to be sucking up to the organization that paid him the most, but some of the stuff in this article is, well...comical. Especially the part where he says he wanted to go to Detroit, but the Yankees signed him instead. :rolling:

guillen4life13
02-23-2010, 02:28 PM
Damon wants to finish his career as a Tiger (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100223/SPORTS0104/2230323/1129/sports0104/Johnny-Damon--I-want-to-finish-my-career-as-a-Tiger)

I'd expect him to be sucking up to the organization that paid him the most, but some of the stuff in this article is, well...comical. Especially the part where he says he wanted to go to Detroit, but the Yankees signed him instead. :rolling:
This is also known as damage control after the rumors during the past few weeks about his family not wanting to go to Detroit.

GoGoCrede
02-23-2010, 02:30 PM
I love how he says "contrary to popular belief" that Michelle wanted Chicago, she supports him. Well, that still doesn't mean she didn't prefer Chicago, Johnny!

spawn
02-23-2010, 02:43 PM
I love how he says "contrary to popular belief" that Michelle wanted Chicago, she supports him. Well, that still doesn't mean she didn't prefer Chicago, Johnny!
He would've been better off just saying that training in Fla. was a big draw for him, and that Detroit presented the best offer. He makes it sound the Sox had no chance of signing him. If KW offers the second year, he'd be in a Sox uniform proclaiming how much he wanted to sign in Chicago, and how happy his wife is he chose Chicago over Detroit. Just not a good press conference on his part IMO.

tstrike2000
02-23-2010, 03:38 PM
He would've been better off just saying that training in Fla. was a big draw for him, and that Detroit presented the best offer. He makes it sound the Sox had no chance of signing him. If KW offers the second year, he'd be in a Sox uniform proclaiming how much he wanted to sign in Chicago, and how happy his wife is he chose Chicago over Detroit. Just not a good press conference on his part IMO.

Yeah, after reading that article, it's like, "Whatever." He wanted to sign with Detroit originally after they finished 71-91? He can pick his kids up from school during spring training, which is all fine and good, but after opening day, it's back to Detroit. He signed for the dollars, anything else outside of having respect for Leyland is kind of hard to believe.

JB98
02-23-2010, 09:15 PM
Yeah, after reading that article, it's like, "Whatever." He wanted to sign with Detroit originally after they finished 71-91? He can pick his kids up from school during spring training, which is all fine and good, but after opening day, it's back to Detroit. He signed for the dollars, anything else outside of having respect for Leyland is kind of hard to believe.

Just once, I'd like to hear one of these guys say, "Yeah, it was about the money."

If they did, I would be fine with that. Why shouldn't it be about money? Every person in the world makes decisions based on money each and every day.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-23-2010, 11:33 PM
Did you guys see that stat on how Damon hit all his HRs to right field? The Tiger's right field fence is 16ft father out. :o:

SOXSINCE'70
02-24-2010, 06:27 AM
Did you guys see that stat on how Damon hit all his HRs to right field? The Tiger's right field fence is 16ft father out. :o:

TCQ could catch the ball without moving to his right or left.:D:

Paulwny
02-25-2010, 03:22 PM
Did anyone consider that Damon's wife saying ~ " I don't want to go to Detroit" was just another way for Boras to try and get Detroit to up the $$$ ?
Its the first thing that came into my mind.

SI1020
02-25-2010, 03:32 PM
Did anyone consider that Damon's wife saying ~ " I don't want to go to Detroit" was just another way for Boras to try and get Detroit to up the $$$ ?
Its the first thing that came into my mind. Boras will use any edge he can find or invent.

asindc
02-25-2010, 03:41 PM
Did anyone consider that Damon's wife saying ~ " I don't want to go to Detroit" was just another way for Boras to try and get Detroit to up the $$$ ?
Its the first thing that came into my mind.

It was the very first thought that came to my mind.